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1:03

Hi

1:03

folks. This episode features

1:05

my interview with Chris Thrall. Chris

1:07

has a fascinating life story, and a part

1:09

of that story saw him stationed in Northern Ireland,

1:12

and in this episode, Chris will explain what

1:14

he remembers from that time.

1:16

So let's get into it then.

1:31

This is The Troubles Podcast, a podcast which

1:33

explores the violence and bloodshed that occurred in Northern Ireland,

1:36

the Republic of Ireland, and Great Britain, as

1:38

multiple sides and organisations waged

1:40

a bloody conflict over the status of Northern Ireland.

1:44

Chris began by telling me how he ended up joining

1:47

the Marines. When

1:50

I left school, because I failed almost

1:52

all my exams except two, I

1:56

immediately, I just felt such a failure.

1:58

I thought, Army? Maybe

2:00

they'll give me a career, you know, and

2:04

I can't remember how it was, but it never came about.

2:06

My family were not big on the military. My

2:11

dad had worked in the

2:13

city center for many years retailing

2:16

carpets, so in a carpet shop.

2:19

And he said, Chris,

2:22

they are... What

2:24

he was trying to say is, they're a bit

2:26

thick. He said the Marines will come

2:29

in and their partner

2:31

just does all the talking, you know, their wife or

2:33

girlfriend, right? I want this carpet. I want,

2:36

you know, this three-piece suite. He

2:38

says the bloke just like doesn't

2:40

know how to talk. And

2:44

I kind of get what he meant, but

2:47

also the thing about the Marines is you get a

2:50

lot of individuals, you know.

2:54

The average career for

2:56

a Marine is actually

2:59

quite short. It's between seven

3:01

and nine years. And

3:03

the reason for that is it

3:07

attracts a kind of person that really

3:09

wants some adventure, really

3:12

wants to sort of learn a bit about himself

3:14

and a bit about the world, but then wants

3:16

to move on. You know,

3:18

when it starts to get a bit

3:22

boring, sort of, you know, passé

3:25

like we've done this before. But

3:28

I was... So I never

3:31

tried to join the army. I can't remember why. Then

3:35

I signed on for a college course

3:38

and I failed back. That's good

3:40

at failing things. And so

3:43

I tried to join the Royal Air Force and

3:48

they, in the recruiting office, they

3:50

brought out all these airplanes. They said, what's this

3:52

airplane? I had no idea. I thought

3:55

you just went to the recruiting office and they signed you

3:57

up and they're... Instead they're testing you on all the airplanes?

3:59

I mean packing a parachute

4:02

is not exactly, you

4:04

know, it's an important job, but

4:06

it's not exactly rocket science. So

4:09

I was quite surprised when they said, no, sorry.

4:13

We don't... What he actually said

4:15

is, we don't think you'd stick the

4:17

training. Which

4:20

is quite ironic because six

4:22

months later, for argument's

4:24

sake, I was homeless

4:27

and living in my car. It

4:30

was a Renault 12 and my

4:33

buddy that... He

4:35

was kind of like a best friend of mine. Came

4:39

up and knocked on the window and went, I've

4:42

just got into the Royal Marines. I've

4:45

had to go up to the Limston Commander

4:47

Training Centre and they put us for

4:49

a three day course. And it's like the toughest

4:52

thing that I've ever done.

4:53

And all these guys, we started

4:55

off with 20 guys and only

4:58

three of us passed it. And

5:00

it was real kind of

5:02

anyone who's ever seen a film officer and a

5:04

gentleman will know that

5:06

kind of, you know, join

5:08

the military to prove yourself.

5:13

And so, and then he said an interesting

5:15

thing and it really... I'll

5:19

wash my language here, but it, you know, it

5:21

peed me off. He

5:24

said, but of course you could

5:26

never do it. Well,

5:28

I was a very... I

5:31

was kind of like quite an angry young man. I

5:34

did not like anyone telling me what

5:36

I could and couldn't do. Because I was, yeah,

5:38

that's quite acutely aware

5:41

of a lot of this stuff I wasn't

5:43

good at. And

5:45

this was, you know, I was a product of a,

5:47

you could say, a very

5:51

broken home. Childhood

5:55

trauma. All the

5:57

kind of quality he slipped, make people go and do

5:59

it. join the military for as a way out

6:02

basically. Yeah, as an escape. An

6:04

escape money that they're going

6:06

to pay you, that other careers aren't going to pay you

6:08

because you've just failed all your exams.

6:13

And it was exciting and it was adventure.

6:17

So it was, well,

6:19

when I passed out

6:21

of commando

6:24

training with the Royal Marines,

6:26

they said, which unit do you want to go to? And

6:30

I was so young and deluded.

6:33

I said, well, which one's going to war? Because

6:36

that's what I've just done eight months training

6:38

for. And

6:40

it was four to commando, which just

6:45

purely coincidentally is not

6:47

actually far from where I grew up. So

6:50

kind of like my family lives around that area.

6:55

So I didn't have far to commute

6:58

and travel at weekends and that sort

7:00

of stuff. But

7:03

they were going to Belfast. And

7:08

I think one of the questions when we

7:10

had our passing out parade and

7:15

our major, so our commanding

7:17

officer was talking to all the parents, one

7:20

of the parents put their hand up and

7:22

said, will

7:24

they have to go to Northern Ireland? So

7:27

obviously this was a fear of

7:29

any parent. You don't want

7:31

your kid to go to war unless you're

7:35

a bit mental. Well,

7:37

it's also on the cusp of 20 years, Northern

7:39

Ireland had been extremely violent. So

7:42

you can understand the concerns of your kids

7:44

going over there. Yeah, obviously.

7:46

Yeah. I'm going to talk about the violence

7:49

because we had a particularly unique year

7:51

where it was

7:53

apparently one of the worst years on

7:55

on record.

7:58

But going back to the this

8:01

auditorium where the mage is talking

8:04

to the parents and he said,

8:06

and this is, like I'm not

8:08

saying this right, this is just the sort of sting

8:10

you hear in the military,

8:13

he said, but

8:15

don't worry, when the Royal Marines

8:17

move in, the IRA move

8:19

out. Wow. Which

8:23

wasn't true.

8:26

This wanted to get sent to Northern Ireland,

8:28

so I asked him why.

8:30

I didn't want to go to Northern Ireland

8:32

for any sense of justice or morality

8:35

or why I didn't even understand it. I

8:38

mean, I don't think most young people know,

8:40

like I didn't really know what a Catholic was. That

8:43

was just something you heard like on American

8:46

movies. And I remember we had,

8:51

like our cousins were Catholic, but I

8:53

didn't, that just meant that when

8:55

they came to visit, they went in that church.

8:57

I mean, they went to slightly different services. Yeah,

9:00

and our elderly relatives went, I didn't

9:02

know, I mean, when I left the Marines

9:04

and I met

9:06

Vicars,

9:08

I called them father and

9:11

I didn't know, I never really understood

9:13

why they turned around to me and went, oh, you're Roman Catholic.

9:17

To which I'd say, no, I'm not, I'm

9:19

not. I just tried to use whatever words I know of yet.

9:22

No, it was just that for

9:24

a start, you know, I've never been any, other

9:27

than the fact we were forced to go to church as kids

9:29

and it was like one of the worst experiences

9:31

of my life.

9:33

But that's an exaggeration. What I mean

9:35

is

9:36

it was the most, it was a highly

9:38

unpleasant experience. Yeah.

9:42

Fitting in that morbid room,

9:44

listening to a load of twaddle, when

9:47

you just want to be down the river fishing or out

9:50

on your bike, it was torture. No, I

9:52

was calling Vicars father because

9:55

I didn't understand that the vicar

9:57

we had in the Marines was a Roman Catholic. That's

10:01

why we all called him father. I

10:03

just thought Thava was a generic term for

10:05

like Vickers. For drinks or

10:07

something. So just

10:10

to get back to the point, so no, I

10:12

just wanted to go because I didn't want to leave

10:14

the Marines.

10:16

I didn't know when I was going to leave anyway.

10:19

And I didn't want to leave not having seen combat

10:21

because I thought, you know, that's

10:24

where the training leads to. Yeah, I thought

10:26

combat may give the man and all that

10:28

sort of naivety.

10:31

We then started talking about what sort of preparation

10:33

was needed before deploying to Northern Ireland.

10:36

Now you do, I'd say

10:39

quite a significant, I

10:41

think we used to call it a build up. I've

10:43

been out for quite a while and I can't remember a lot of the

10:45

expressions we used to use, but

10:48

you start

10:50

off on your own camp, literally doing

10:52

the stuff that you could do. So

10:54

the old sweats, as we would call

10:56

them, or people that had served, we called

10:59

it over the water

11:01

or we just called it Ireland, which I

11:03

know upsets a lot of people, but to us,

11:06

we didn't give a shit. It was like, that's

11:08

Ireland. This is England, right?

11:11

We weren't politically motivated or something

11:14

or religiously motivated.

11:18

That's how we refer to it anyway. So

11:22

chaps that might've been over there would come and

11:24

talk to you about, right, this is how you patrol.

11:26

This is why you patrol. And you just put patrol around

11:29

your own camp, like say across the football pitch.

11:31

You put a camp in England now as preparation.

11:34

Yeah. So a

11:36

4-2 command of being

11:39

just outside Plymouth. And

11:42

then it would be interspersed with

11:44

lectures. So everyone would

11:46

have to learn how to put a drip in and

11:49

they would physically get the needle and shove

11:51

it into a bloke's arm. And so the blood,

11:53

you know, and get the

11:55

check there that a blood was filling it and all

11:57

this sort of stuff, and then put the bag on.

12:00

So obviously first aid

12:02

was a priority. What

12:07

I'm saying is you

12:10

do what you can, right? You

12:13

do what you can. Lots

12:15

of lectures, you know, patrol techniques.

12:21

I've probably forgotten more stuff than I'm ever

12:23

gonna- Do they give you any context? Do they try and kind

12:25

of inform you of like the different paramilitary

12:27

groups or like the socioeconomic situation

12:29

or is that not relevant at all?

12:31

No, you basically talk. You're

12:34

not taught because you're not taught. There's

12:36

like a bit of a dearth there or a void.

12:40

You just get the impression that the Catholics

12:42

are the bad guys and

12:46

the Protestants are on our side. Okay,

12:49

but then when, and then you end up kind of,

12:52

and then you're sent off basically. Yeah,

12:54

well, so you do

12:56

that beat up on your camp for say, let's

12:58

say six weeks.

13:00

And then you go to, then we went to a place

13:02

called Lydon Hive, which is up in Kent,

13:04

which is the place you're thinking of.

13:07

And up at Lydon Hive, you

13:10

go under the more intensive

13:13

training. And

13:15

I learned stuff there that

13:17

probably saved my life.

13:20

I

13:22

remember the first day up there, we

13:25

had a chat, I'll call him Jock because

13:27

that's what I call him in my book. And

13:31

he'd done, I think two tours

13:33

already. And

13:35

he was like, right, fellas, you never

13:37

stay still.

13:39

He said, none of this, like have your weapon down

13:41

your side, like the pongos, which is what

13:44

we call the army.

13:46

He said, derogatory term, obviously.

13:49

None of this bullshit with your weapon

13:51

down, looking like you're

13:53

thinking about your mum or something.

13:55

It's always up in the shoulder. your

14:00

eyes all always lined up with a ready

14:02

to look in the sight you're always moving

14:05

you never keep your body in one place

14:08

you step to one side you step to the side

14:10

you you get down on one knee you stand

14:12

up you move anytime you move

14:14

down the street you zigzag and

14:17

it might sound a bit like

14:19

dramatic but yeah

14:24

like I say I say this probably saved my

14:26

life and so that was our

14:28

first day up there and in Kent

14:32

and then the package consisted of

14:34

going on the ranges up there they and

14:39

getting familiar with all different kinds of

14:41

shooting so shooting at

14:43

moving targets night

14:45

shooting um

14:49

just a little bit more than you'd done as a

14:51

marine in training basically yeah

14:53

with a bunch emphasis on kind of like I guess

14:55

around your time um the irate

14:58

started using like mortar bomb technology um

15:00

and I know they kind of have roadside bombs a lot so did you have

15:02

a lot of training and trying to identify them

15:04

or I don't know what you can do against a mortar bomb but would

15:07

that be something that would be relevant I guess uh

15:10

yeah you're gonna have all of that

15:11

you know yeah okay it's basically homemade

15:14

mortars cut cut

15:17

the top of the you know a an

15:19

oxyacetylene bottle that sort of yeah

15:22

gas canister those big tool ones and

15:24

and then

15:25

wire them up with homemade charges

15:27

and and and explosive

15:32

Chris recalls hearing about the corporal killings

15:35

in which two soldiers were killed after they accidentally

15:37

drove into a funeral procession

15:41

and the one other thing of significance

15:43

in this beat up I should say

15:45

is one of the chaps Jan Jan

15:49

is a nickname for anyone who who comes

15:51

from the south of England anyone with a southwest

15:53

accent is called Jan in the marines or

15:57

most of them are

15:59

and that Jan came into

16:01

the office where we

16:04

were based on the camp

16:06

and he came into the troop

16:09

and he had a newspaper,

16:11

a sort of tabloid, and he had it open.

16:13

He went, well, you'd

16:16

better look at this.

16:17

He turned it round. It was the two

16:19

signalers

16:21

when they were executed

16:23

after accidentally driving into an IRA

16:25

funeral.

16:26

Okay. There's a bit

16:28

of discrepancy about this, but basically

16:31

what's in the public sphere is that

16:33

they were signalers. There's been people

16:36

quoting-

16:40

Whether they're undercover or something. They were

16:42

like intelligence, but I think they

16:44

were actually genuinely signalers. It

16:47

was the old guy showing

16:49

the new bloke around. Yeah, the whole

16:51

thing was filmed by the police chopper

16:54

overhead. They

16:58

were taken to a place called Penny Lane, which

17:01

we physically patrolled by

17:04

when we were in Belfast.

17:07

You got to remember, I'm 19 years

17:10

old

17:11

and I'm seeing these things

17:13

like I've just only seen it on

17:16

the news all my life.

17:17

I'm going to come on and tell you the

17:20

big shocker that we had, because

17:22

like you said initially,

17:24

it was a bit weird. We

17:27

were just going on patrol in a British

17:30

city, Irish city.

17:33

I don't care what people's politics are.

17:41

I'm not involved in that. We're just an urban

17:43

city that's familiar to- You lost the shop

17:46

and go to the pub. Yeah, it was like I could have been in

17:48

Exeter.

17:50

I've got what is essentially

17:52

a machine gun in my hands, an SA80.

17:55

It's a fully automatic

17:57

rifle. And

18:01

I'm Like

18:04

patrolling down the white lines in the

18:06

middle of the road and cars like

18:09

Making well sure that they stopped

18:12

for me

18:12

and I'm not I'm 19 and I

18:15

know jack shit It's

18:17

quite a bizarre situation when you think about

18:19

it, but

18:20

but no that's the the signalers That

18:25

that It was

18:27

all the fact that it was all documented

18:30

You could see the point one

18:32

of them pulled out his nine millimeter Which

18:34

they would have had just shoved down the

18:36

back of their jeans or in a holster

18:39

under their leather jackets You know denim jackets

18:41

as

18:42

we all wore back then One

18:44

of them pulled out. I think he managed. I

18:46

think he fired one warning shot. He got a warning

18:49

shot up in the area everybody back

18:51

back to way

18:53

Yeah, and then there's a clip

18:55

in I think it was in one of the newspapers that

18:57

showed the magazine slipping

19:00

out of one of the chaps weapons

19:02

and what they reckon is It

19:05

was something that he'd missed I he'd

19:08

mistaken the safety catch for the magazine

19:11

ejection lease. Yeah release right,

19:13

I mean you'd

19:16

have to be pretty crap weapon skills

19:18

to But then you don't

19:20

know how much training someone gets in an eye

19:22

mill I carried a nine

19:24

millimeter for a Little

19:27

over a year. We're on the range

19:29

all the time You know, but

19:32

yeah, I say all the time. Yeah, we'd go

19:34

at least sort of every two weeks And

19:39

You just it becomes part of

19:41

your anatomy. Yeah, you you know where you

19:43

don't need it's that cliche You don't even have

19:45

to look at it. So I don't know what the hell

19:48

happened there

19:50

When the crowd come back a second time, that

19:52

was it. They they've written them from the car dragged

19:54

them off to penny Lane

19:56

stripped the naked and and Executed

19:59

them and

20:01

Yeah, it's just an

20:03

awful situation. As

20:06

you can probably tell, I

20:08

think human beings can do better than

20:11

killing each other.

20:13

It doesn't really say much

20:15

for us, does it? I

20:18

do appreciate, obviously

20:21

I appreciate it. It was an incredibly

20:24

complex situation.

20:26

Obviously I know a lot more about it now as

20:29

an adult than I did when I was a teenager.

20:35

It really was one of those like catch-22s,

20:38

wasn't it? But

20:41

I still believe that it's possible

20:43

to forge forward in a way

20:46

to find a way that

20:49

I don't think you're ever going to suit everybody.

20:52

But there is a way.

20:56

We then began talking about Chris's deployment to

20:58

Belfast.

21:00

Well, it was incredible. It was a massive,

21:02

massive eye-opener, but it

21:05

came in fits and

21:07

spurts. So we

21:10

landed, was it Olde Grove you land? I can't

21:12

remember.

21:13

But we landed

21:16

on the plane. I

21:19

think we had like

21:21

a proper

21:23

airliner to go over there. I can't remember

21:25

the name of it now. And I think we

21:27

had a Hercules to come back. But

21:30

anyway,

21:32

we landed and then lo and behold,

21:35

we were loaded

21:36

into what we call pigs,

21:40

which were the armored personnel carriers

21:42

back then.

21:45

And that's all we really dealt with when we

21:47

were over. We had pigs

21:49

and armored Land Rovers. And

21:54

they all had this hook thing on

21:56

the roof, which was to cut through any

21:59

cables that someone might have stretched across

22:01

the road

22:03

with the intention of taking off

22:05

the

22:06

soldier's head obviously.

22:08

We called that top cover

22:12

but these are picks. There was no top cover.

22:14

It was all from what I remember sealed in

22:16

like an

22:18

armored vehicle.

22:19

Yeah and all sides. Yeah and we

22:21

had a, I don't know, there's about

22:24

eight maybe ten of you crammed in

22:26

the back

22:28

and we're driving along and I was the guy sat

22:30

at the back so I had the little portal open

22:32

and I had this little kind of shutter you

22:34

could open this heavy metal plate

22:36

and I had it open and I'm looking out

22:39

taking in everything.

22:42

I don't even think we had any weapons

22:44

at this point. They were kind of, yeah

22:47

they'd been taken on ahead or whatever

22:50

and

22:52

or I might be wrong on that but

22:55

we're driving and we start to come into

22:57

the city

22:59

and it all just, it just looked like a

23:01

normal city you know. I may be a bit

23:03

shabby in places but it

23:06

just looked like a city

23:09

and then we drove past a pub

23:13

and as I'm looking out of this this

23:15

little window everyone

23:19

who was sort of in

23:22

the pub or stood outside just

23:25

started scrabbling. Anything

23:27

that they could throw at us. And

23:32

I'm watching as bricks are

23:34

coming down the road. We were going

23:37

too fast for them to land anything

23:39

on us

23:40

hence why the other guys that I was with

23:42

were all just all the other Marines they're just oblivious

23:44

they're all chatting away. I'm looking

23:46

out and I'm like guys

23:49

you're never gonna believe what just happened.

23:52

Yeah these were grown men. You'd

23:55

say they should be

23:57

doing something better with their life. You know they've they've

23:59

thrown. Rocks, what

24:02

is this about? You

24:05

know, what I'm trying to say, it was the first

24:07

sign of that hatred that

24:09

we would come to accept on a daily basis.

24:12

And it was a two-way thing, like you mentioned,

24:14

it was a three-way thing with the

24:17

loyalists. Yeah,

24:19

it was all about hatred

24:22

over there. And the fact that these

24:24

grown men, the

24:27

most important thing to them was could they throw

24:29

a brick at us,

24:32

that was an eye-opener.

24:34

You don't see that in Devon, do you

24:36

know what I mean? It

24:40

was an eye-opener. That was straight away,

24:42

so you were right, you get into the barracks, you start

24:45

patrols, I guess, and you start to see this then everywhere

24:47

you go.

24:49

Well, it

24:52

was funny. We were in that

24:54

white rock, and

24:59

it's shitty, right? Sorry,

25:01

is that too rude? Oh, you can curse, you can curse if

25:03

you want. Yeah, yeah, it was,

25:12

for a start, it was like one-to-one

25:14

porn, which has never

25:16

been, you know, putting pictures

25:18

of naked women on the walls has never

25:21

been like my idea of a

25:23

great way to live your life. As a

25:25

barrack, it was shabby and shitty. There

25:28

was all this porn all over

25:30

the wall. It smelled

25:33

like, you know, just like

25:36

thousands upon thousands of blokes that

25:39

lived here in teenage boys. In

25:42

sweaty gear, you know,

25:45

it wasn't like Marines are notorious

25:48

for being spic and span, you know, it

25:51

was part of our ethos. You

25:53

watch every single day. It wasn't unusual

25:56

at the end of the day to have had three showers,

25:59

one in the morning.

25:59

when you got up for work,

26:03

won when you went out for

26:05

a run at lunchtime, and

26:07

won when you went downtown in the evening. That

26:09

was just normal for us. Just normal. And

26:12

yet over there, this

26:14

was the hottest summer on record for

26:16

so many years. You literally

26:19

were drenched in this acid smelling

26:21

sweat,

26:22

and it just stayed in your t-shirt and

26:24

your flat jacket.

26:26

I think we called them in Niebuh vests.

26:29

And you didn't have the time to

26:31

be washing this all. You

26:34

didn't, if you got the longest

26:36

I had off in five months, was

26:41

I think four hours. Okay,

26:44

it's very... Yeah. Yeah,

26:47

you're fully in. Yeah, it was

26:49

like four hours. I mean, it's one patrol,

26:51

then you come back, you snatch and sleep, then it's,

26:54

you're up, you're off again.

26:56

So there we

26:58

were in these manky barracks,

27:02

and we were woken up

27:05

about 4.30, or we woke

27:07

up at 4.30 to go to the briefing

27:09

room, we got a briefing,

27:11

and then we went out on patrol.

27:13

And we went out as a multiples,

27:16

I'm guessing that would have been four teams of four.

27:21

And you always bomb us from the barracks.

27:25

And remember, the sun was coming up, and

27:28

we ran, you got the obviously

27:30

weapon loaded to your, magazine

27:33

loaded to your weapon, you're

27:35

carrying another couple of spares, or

27:37

at least another magazine.

27:40

I had the first aid kit,

27:43

and we ran, and

27:45

you call it, you bomb us from the barracks,

27:47

so you're zigzagging from side to side. So

27:49

then- The gates don't open, and you walk out in

27:51

formation or anything. No, you'd be sitting docks there. So

27:54

the gates- Yeah, you-

27:55

Rube, yeah.

27:56

It's the one place you can guarantee

27:58

you're gonna see-

27:59

a marine or a squadie is coming out of that

28:02

gate. So it's the most logical

28:04

place to

28:05

put a sniper. Yeah.

28:07

And do you think the IRA are watching you at all times? Oh

28:10

yeah, they were. Yeah.

28:12

Yeah, that was a no brainer.

28:15

Not just the IRA, any underground

28:18

group

28:18

has their... In Northern

28:21

Ireland, we call them Dickers. And

28:24

back then, a lot of it was on CB radio

28:27

because we didn't have mobile phones like

28:29

we did now. But it would be landline,

28:32

CB radio.

28:36

I'm guessing it was all in code.

28:38

So it would be, you know,

28:42

the red bus has just pulled up

28:44

at the start would mean that the, you

28:46

know, patrol... So is that... Yeah, the nonsense

28:48

to you guys, but you know... The people are communicating.

28:51

Yeah. Yeah, and I can give an example

28:53

of how we know because

28:55

from one of the contacts we had over there.

28:58

And so we bomb burst onto this street and

29:01

then we fell into patrol formation and

29:05

it was just memorable. It

29:08

was like, wow,

29:11

I've arrived in combat.

29:12

That's how it felt. You know,

29:15

this is, geez, this

29:17

is the culmination of a lot of training.

29:21

And here I am,

29:23

this is real now. But

29:26

the problem was, even

29:30

though on that first day, I

29:32

can remember, I had this photographic

29:35

memory. So any

29:38

players we called them, so that's

29:40

an IRA soldier that I saw on

29:42

the street, I could just recognize them.

29:45

And you had their photos obviously in the briefing

29:47

room. But now these are dressed as

29:50

civilians as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just...

29:52

For most people it's hard to tell, you know, a

29:55

normal civilian who's an IRA

29:57

combatant, I guess.

29:59

And for the most part, part they're going down the bookies or

30:01

they're going the post office to get to cash their

30:03

gyro that that would that you

30:06

know was quite or they're coming back

30:08

from the pub or something um yeah but

30:11

because that you'd seen their faces on on

30:14

on these sheets uh

30:18

I could just remember their faces

30:20

uncannily so I'd look across the road

30:22

it might be 300 meters away and I'd just

30:25

say to to my brick commander

30:27

that

30:28

that chap there

30:30

might not always remember his name but I'd say

30:32

I think he's called you know

30:35

John O'Brady or whatever and then we'd

30:37

stop him and it would be John O'Brady

30:40

I remember I remember on that first day the

30:42

professionalism of jock because he'd

30:44

been there before

30:46

and he just walked straight up to the guy

30:49

and just said all right John all

30:52

right for a quick word mate and

30:55

John's like oh should be sure you know

30:58

and uh

31:00

jock's like so way

31:02

off then down the pub he was

31:04

like oh no just just cashing me gyro oh okay

31:08

um got got any work on at the minute

31:10

John no no no I'm I'm unemployed

31:13

well obviously he's cashing his gyro but I

31:15

was just so impressed with the way my colleague

31:18

went up and my first thing is like I

31:20

pulled out my notebook

31:22

and after we chatted to this guy and

31:24

we walked away jock just said don't

31:27

don't do that just keep the

31:29

book you know just just

31:31

gleam what you can in the conversation then

31:33

write it write it down when you get back to barracks

31:35

don't

31:36

you know it feels like an interrogation or something

31:39

yeah a bit of interrogation which it is I guess you

31:41

know yeah plus you look a bit of

31:43

a bit of a knob there you know I don't

31:45

know but but yeah that that

31:48

was that was an eye opener you

31:50

know that these guys that we've looked at

31:52

these sheets of paper are always photos

31:54

we've seen in the briefing room you know just like

31:56

any

31:57

police show that you watch I'm not I'm

31:59

not giving know any secrets here, right? It's

32:05

an oil that these people

32:08

exist, that

32:10

there's one there and later

32:12

on that afternoon.

32:14

It's a bit like, I always say like Vietnam

32:16

or something, it's like guerrilla warfare or something in the sense

32:18

that like, you know, you'll never necessarily

32:21

face these people across the field, but at the same time,

32:23

the IRA

32:25

were quite powerful, I guess,

32:27

even though I think they were starting to get really

32:29

riddled with informers and spies and

32:31

all this sort of stuff. But by around the

32:34

late 80s, early

32:36

90s, they were

32:37

quite successfully burning a lot of barracks

32:39

and kind of gaining ground, I guess, was

32:42

their intention. But yeah, it

32:44

was a very murky warfare, I guess is

32:46

kind of the way I'm saying this. Yeah. You

32:49

don't know. We were acutely aware that

32:51

the IRA were the best,

32:55

you know, amongst the best soldiers in

32:57

the world.

32:58

And also that they had all the odds

33:01

on their side because

33:03

they only, you know,

33:05

they only had to get lucky once. You

33:08

had to be lucky every minute of every day.

33:11

And even then, if

33:13

you kept yourself alive, you

33:15

could never see where they were, where say, for

33:17

example, where a firing point was,

33:20

because they might be

33:22

lying on a bunk bed, looking

33:27

through the back of a wardrobe that's just

33:29

had a small hole

33:33

that big drilled into it

33:35

with the doors of the wardrobe just slightly

33:38

ajar. And so they've got

33:40

their aiming point with the curtains

33:42

on the house almost closed.

33:45

And they're just waiting for the soldier to appear in

33:47

that those three apertures and

33:51

they can get a round off. You're not going

33:53

to see

33:54

you won't see the muzzle flash because they're

33:57

basically behind the cupboard in a.

33:59

in a room with the windows, you

34:02

know, they're incredibly good at what

34:04

they did. The second they take that shot,

34:06

or in our case, took several,

34:09

one gunman took several shots at us, the

34:12

second they've done that, the weapon

34:15

is handed to one guy

34:16

and that's taken in that direction.

34:19

The clothes are handed

34:21

to, you know, to this guy and he goes

34:23

off and destroys them.

34:25

The person is chucked in a

34:27

bath, not in the same house, you

34:29

know, in a different house. They're scrubbed,

34:31

the nails are cleaned for forensics

34:34

and

34:35

that's it.

34:37

The homeowner, if you do find the firing

34:39

point, just says, oh, we were

34:42

taken hostage. You're a course, yeah. Yeah,

34:45

and you know, I'm not judging

34:47

them. None of them are talking about

34:49

whoever addresses you and your family, you just say

34:51

yes, I think, in that case. Well, it's not even that,

34:54

it's if you live in the Ardoyne, you

34:56

are very sympathetic to the IRA

34:59

cause that if you're not, you don't think you'd

35:01

be living there very long.

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38:55

Chris then began talking about when he and Jock were fired upon

38:57

for the first time. We

39:00

left, we patrolled there at White Rock for about, it

39:04

was about a week. It might've been two weeks. It

39:08

was very different to patrolling we'd come

39:10

to do at Girdwood.

39:13

12 hour days, hot, really hot, dusty. It

39:19

was a lot of work. We were in a lot of trouble. Really

39:22

hot, dusty. And

39:25

the patrols were like 12 hours long

39:27

and you patrol between RUC stations,

39:30

so police stations.

39:32

You'd get back, you'd get your four hours, four

39:34

and a half hours sleep if you're lucky. Then bang,

39:37

you was up to do the whole thing,

39:39

you know, to do another 12 hour.

39:42

And the funny thing was, other

39:45

than, you know, stopping these players, nothing

39:47

happened. Nothing went bang,

39:49

nothing went boom. It

39:51

become really like, you felt

39:54

a bit blase. Yeah. Like,

39:56

oh my God, we've done all that training, all

39:59

that building. up even

40:02

to this as far as going around with live

40:04

ammunition and

40:07

fabricating this scenario and

40:09

this scenario and what about this

40:11

scenario and learning how to

40:13

search you know a person

40:16

if you've shot them or all this sort of stuff and

40:18

like nothing's going to happen is it? It's

40:21

just it's all been over height

40:23

that that is that is what my mind

40:25

was telling me.

40:27

So

40:28

the only other thing of significance in that first

40:31

couple of weeks

40:32

is we got to a house

40:34

and our brick commander

40:36

I call him Tony

40:38

he turned round he went

40:40

number 23 that's where Seamus lives

40:42

isn't it and we're like yeah

40:45

that's right he went all right he

40:48

just knocks on the door of

40:50

this IRA players house

40:54

and this little old lady probably and

40:56

I can't remember but you know answers the door and

41:00

she says oh yes

41:04

and tone says it's

41:07

Seamus then she went oh

41:09

no he'll be out

41:12

okay just telling the rule of Marines cool

41:14

that was it and then we fucked up

41:17

and that was our you know that

41:22

was our ethos you know we're

41:24

not here to be mucked around we're

41:27

here to you know

41:29

you do what we say not not the other way

41:31

around that that was just our ethos yeah

41:34

I don't know I don't know if I kept more blokes alive

41:36

or put us in bigger danger to be honest but

41:39

that's how it was

41:41

and then what happened is there was

41:43

a voting night

41:46

and traditionally the IRA have always

41:48

tried to interrupt the

41:50

democratic process

41:52

democratic the voting

41:54

process let's call it because

41:58

because it's a British voting on Obviously,

42:01

so we were tasked with moving to a place

42:03

called Gerdward Park and

42:06

when we got there they attached a Conco

42:10

to us that's continuity

42:13

officer and The

42:16

reason was we weren't just new

42:19

to the province as It

42:22

was when I've been now in less than two weeks

42:24

now we We're in a completely

42:27

new place because we've not been in Gerdward

42:29

Park before

42:30

so they attach this army guy from the unit

42:32

before to our patrol

42:34

to show us you

42:36

know, what's what and

42:38

These continuity officers they volunteer

42:41

to stay behind when their unit goes home They'll

42:44

leave all these I say officer. It could

42:46

be a corporal could be a private and

42:48

spent to do the context of yeah Yeah,

42:50

and they'll show you right this house is

42:52

where so and so that pub there You

42:55

can expect to see

42:56

this chat drinking there every day

42:59

up. There is the oh, yeah They

43:01

just point out everything to it anyway

43:04

So we went out the barracks and and

43:06

something happened that was never put in the

43:09

contact report which really

43:11

should have been and that is

43:13

we went out the barracks on foot and

43:18

No vehicles went out with us

43:20

the vehicles were still getting there, you

43:22

know

43:23

They're stuffed together

43:26

And so we went out on foot and we got as

43:28

far as Gerdward up to the Ardowin

43:31

Which if I remember was it was about

43:33

a mile sort of track

43:35

you know half a month or month and

43:40

Because we hadn't got

43:43

vehicle cover

43:44

Which is really important. Yeah, it sounds like you're

43:46

quite exposed. It sounds like yeah, you shouldn't do that.

43:48

Yeah Yeah, and the reason you have vehicle

43:50

cover with two soldiers or Marines

43:53

at top with their SC 80s poised

43:56

and the driver with a radio is

43:58

That if someone tries

43:59

tries to take a snipe at you,

44:02

that vehicle can travel a lot faster

44:04

than you can run and there's less chance

44:07

that the gunman is going to get away,

44:09

right? Okay, yeah.

44:11

Okay. Or the

44:14

vehicle might turn a corner and see the

44:16

gunman getting bundled into a car

44:18

to take

44:19

off to the safe house, right? This

44:21

sort of thing.

44:22

And so someone had obviously been on the radio and

44:24

said they've left the camp, they've got no top

44:26

cover, they've got no vehicles.

44:28

Okay, right. Let's do it. And

44:31

in that short space of time for

44:33

us to travel, it was

44:35

probably 10 minutes, 12

44:37

minutes, maybe 14 minutes.

44:40

They'd got a gunman in place at the back of

44:42

the Ardoyne.

44:46

Still remember the chap's name, to

44:48

be honest.

44:50

And we

44:52

got to this little park and

44:58

remember the continuity

45:00

officer turns round

45:02

and he says, right fellas, break into

45:04

diamond formation.

45:06

He said break into diamond formation. He

45:09

said,

45:09

because this alleyway here up

45:11

the side of the park is notorious for IED,

45:14

so improvised explosive devices.

45:17

We'll just take up potluck, we'll go across

45:19

the open ground.

45:21

And of course, the increased risk

45:24

there is you're exposed. And

45:27

I was the second to last guy on the patrol.

45:29

Jock was behind me by about 10 or 15

45:32

meters. You

45:35

always keep distance in case something

45:37

goes bang and then

45:38

less chance it's going to, yeah, it's going to take

45:41

you all out.

45:42

And as I stepped foot on that grass, we

45:47

just heard bang,

45:49

bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,

45:52

bang, just high velocity

45:58

gunshots going off and just. Echoing

46:00

off the walls all around this part. So you have

46:02

no way to like figure out the where it's coming from I

46:04

guess a bit later. Well in in that moment

46:06

and it all happened so quick.

46:09

I just remember

46:11

Tone yelling Say

46:14

cover say in cover

46:17

and in just a out of

46:20

drill All the cocking

46:22

mechanisms are those rifles slam

46:24

back

46:26

at the same time. You can just hear it Echoing

46:29

off all the walls as everyone made ready

46:31

because you know,

46:33

yeah and There

46:38

was a building in front of us it was

46:40

almost I

46:42

my memory obviously is

46:44

This is a long time ago now but it was like

46:46

a sort of workman's building in

46:49

this park or something like that and

46:51

the obvious place to make the cover

46:53

was behind this building and

46:57

As as we all

46:59

collapse behind this building I

47:03

Turned around looking for the firing

47:06

point

47:07

because obviously the first thing you want to do

47:09

is get some rounds off

47:12

back

47:13

and hopefully take out and stick out this person

47:15

who's trying to kill you and

47:17

as I look back jog was spark

47:20

out on the middle of this park and

47:23

The crazy thing was when we

47:25

were at Liddon hive and we were we

47:27

were doing that patrol I told you with this

47:29

to to ammunition. I

47:31

Remember we got contacted

47:34

there the same thing bang bang bang

47:36

bang bang bang We'd all

47:38

taken cover when I look back

47:41

jock was lying down in in the middle

47:43

of the street, right and my

47:46

first thought was oh because

47:49

he's done two tours before He

47:52

he knows to just he's just like

47:54

hit the deck a bit like you used to

47:56

see in the old movies You know the deck

47:59

and yeah

47:59

And as I'm looking at that and that's

48:02

what the thought is in my mind, the umpire

48:05

of this little exercise walked up, tapped

48:07

me on the shoulder, pointing

48:09

and went,

48:10

he's just been hit. I'm like,

48:12

oh, oh, right.

48:14

I get it. And it makes sense now. And

48:17

the funny thing was I turned around in

48:20

this actual scenario, I turned around around

48:22

the corner of this

48:24

hut

48:25

and there's Jock spark out on

48:27

his front.

48:29

Just the same way that he was

48:31

in this exercise. And,

48:33

um, this time

48:36

I

48:37

know he's been hit

48:38

and his equipment was about

48:41

five,

48:42

let's just say about, yeah, splayed

48:44

out around him by about five meters. So

48:46

his rifle was over there. He's

48:49

you carry this electronic equipment and it

48:51

was over there.

48:53

And I'm the first ADA. So I

48:55

started to run,

48:57

run back. That's just what you do is, you know,

48:59

it's what you, what you're trained to do. Yeah.

49:02

Good reaction as well. Yeah. Yeah. And you're going to drag

49:04

him into cover or you're going to fireman's carry

49:06

him into cover, what, what, what, what, whatever.

49:08

I wasn't even bothered about the

49:10

equipment. If I was honest, it was more

49:13

get, get him out of this

49:15

firing line.

49:17

And, um, I remember them, I

49:19

specifically remember my, this Conco

49:22

and Tony showing Chris, get

49:25

down, get down. And

49:29

I'm like, how can I do that? Yeah.

49:32

Is it I have to get jock or what to me? Yeah. Yeah,

49:34

exactly. And as I, as I, as I

49:36

taken like no more than

49:38

three steps, jock looks

49:40

up and he's always a wider

49:43

sources and

49:45

in that moment he clicked

49:48

something has happened to me. And

49:50

the first instinct in his mind was right.

49:53

Grab my rifle, grab my equipment.

49:56

And then he came running over,

49:58

you know, and this is all. in Ladina

50:00

we're talking this is instantaneous no adrenaline

50:03

or whatever yeah like he's up looks around

50:05

grabs his rifle grabs the electron he

50:07

runs over dies behind this

50:09

this building and he says I'm here I'm

50:12

here I'm here

50:14

so I rip open his his power

50:16

smock open his aniba

50:19

vest I'm

50:21

like jock

50:23

you're not in here yes

50:26

I am I'm here I'm here I'm here I'm

50:28

jock you're not in here I can't

50:30

find any holes mate

50:32

and there was nothing in there so

50:35

it

50:37

confusion sets in then we've

50:39

got a guy saying he's hit

50:41

but there's no holes in him yeah

50:43

that's bizarre tones

50:46

on the radio going I'll come

50:48

and you know this is November

50:51

5-0 Alpha contact

50:53

we have casualty we have a casualty

50:55

over

50:56

and the co is then straight on the net

50:58

our actual co

51:00

who I think happened to be in the ops

51:02

room when this this shout came in

51:04

and he's like

51:06

and then and then tones like

51:08

November

51:11

5-0 alpha correct that we

51:13

contact we don't have a casualty

51:18

jock is screaming I'm here I'm

51:20

here I'm here Tony

51:23

tones back on the radio correction

51:25

we do have a

51:27

and this free radio calls button

51:29

and they're all contradicting each you know two of

51:31

them are contradicting the other one and

51:34

and I remember the actual co swore

51:36

down the net he said

51:39

corporal Tony for

51:42

sake sort it

51:44

out have you got a casualty or

51:46

not and and

51:48

tone didn't know what to say so he just went

51:50

for no don't and

51:52

don't think we anyway

51:58

we we just didn't really

51:59

know what had happened. It was all just too

52:02

confusing.

52:03

Yeah, and the gunfire was just

52:05

a single burst and then gun, was it?

52:08

Yeah. What had happened is the gunman

52:10

at the back of the Ardoyne

52:12

had taken three shots

52:15

at Jock.

52:16

One shot went through his weapons

52:18

sling.

52:20

One sling took the antenna off

52:22

his

52:23

electronic equipment. You've

52:26

got to remember, he's facing backwards

52:29

because he's what we call Taylor and Charlie. So

52:31

his job is to look backwards. Watch the rear,

52:33

okay. So you literally get good at

52:35

walking backwards, right?

52:37

And as he's turned backwards, he's taken

52:40

around smack in the Nieber

52:42

vest, right? You've

52:44

got this fiberglass plate over your heart,

52:47

right? Which is

52:51

bulletproof, basically. Didn't even

52:53

hit that. It just hit the fiberglass wadding

52:55

of the vest itself. Hits

52:58

that,

53:00

ends up in the pocket of his Paris

53:02

mock, right? His combat jacket.

53:04

The intense force of it,

53:07

which is like

53:08

getting a bodybuilder

53:10

to hit you with a sledgehammer,

53:13

has spun him around so hard

53:15

that his equipment flew off. He's

53:18

then hit the deck unconscious and

53:22

then the gunman's turned on me because

53:24

I'm the next

53:25

guy close to the next one.

53:28

So I'm seeing this, like the ground flicking

53:30

up at my feet, a bit like in the cowboy movies.

53:34

So then he keeps shooting. Yeah,

53:36

yeah. Of course, yeah. That's what you wouldn't

53:38

fire. It was

53:41

a dispute how many rounds I'd say it was about 10

53:44

rounds. Okay. I think the report said

53:46

eight

53:47

could have been 12. It doesn't really matter.

53:50

But the point was

53:51

the third round hit,

53:54

hit job.

53:57

So the other five rounds, I can only

53:59

assume.

53:59

were fired at me.

54:01

Were for you, yeah. But by this time, I'm

54:04

running.

54:05

Yeah, are you running as fast as you can?

54:07

So that

54:09

was the scenario. So I

54:13

knew the firing point was the back of the Ardoin.

54:16

I just could sense it. Don't ask me how. I

54:19

just, it was clearly like

54:21

there.

54:22

The thing that confused us is when Jock

54:24

run up,

54:25

and he's, you gotta remember, he's in serious shock

54:28

now.

54:28

He points in completely the opposite direction

54:31

and went,

54:32

the firing point was up there. So we

54:34

ended up putting this silly little cordon

54:36

in, like literally nowhere

54:39

near where, I mean, the first thing you do

54:41

is ascertain a firing point. We

54:43

didn't know where it was.

54:44

So we put this cordon in where

54:47

we thought it

54:48

like, maybe might have been. And

54:51

it was just funny. Eventually

54:54

an ambulance rocks up, but

54:57

Jock wouldn't get in it. He's

54:59

just says, look, I patrolled out with my

55:02

team. I'm patrolling back in with my team.

55:04

And that was final.

55:07

This little Catholic

55:09

kid comes up to him and says, is

55:14

it true, a Marine's been shot,

55:16

mister? And

55:21

is he dead? And this is like

55:23

a little kid. Most thing he wants,

55:25

he just wants to hear that

55:27

a Brit's dead.

55:28

Yeah. I'm

55:31

laughing at the craziness of it, and

55:34

Jock just turns around and goes, no.

55:39

He says, because I

55:42

can't do a Scottish accent. Marines

55:45

are invincible. Well,

55:49

I'd say he fairly fell that way after getting hit by three points.

55:52

We took the piss out of him for the next

55:55

five months because of that. So

55:59

yes.

55:59

So that was one time we

56:02

got contacted another time.

56:04

In fact, what I didn't tell

56:06

you is that very day, this

56:09

wasn't our first time trying to get out the barracks.

56:12

This was our second time.

56:13

The first time which took place about,

56:18

I don't know, we saved three hours earlier,

56:21

as we pepper-potted out the front gate,

56:25

the IRA blew up the banner gate. Well,

56:29

it wasn't actually the back gate, there was a Sanghar,

56:31

I think it was on the New Lodge Road, I can't remember

56:34

the geography or the names, but

56:36

it was like one road down

56:38

from the back of the camp.

56:40

But

56:45

the explosion from that, then trying to

56:47

blow up this observation post down there,

56:49

just, it was

56:51

this, you could feel it all around you, even

56:55

though we were the other side of the camp. And

56:58

again, it was the same thing, it was take

57:00

cover, cock your weapon.

57:02

We took cover behind the rocks that were

57:04

outside the camp, the rocks to stop

57:07

trucks like smashing through the fence. This

57:09

is earlier the same day? You're taking, yeah, this is earlier

57:11

the same day. And then

57:13

I remember, Tone says,

57:15

right folks,

57:16

get back in, we're going back in. So

57:19

we went back in,

57:20

had a debriefing, which wasn't a lot to

57:22

say, other than we just literally got

57:25

out the gate

57:26

when it went boom.

57:27

So we took cover for a bit, made

57:30

ready, then ran back in.

57:32

So this is the second time. So in

57:34

two attempts at getting out this camp, we

57:36

haven't done very well. Jeez,

57:38

okay. Yeah, and

57:42

this is where I say, it

57:45

just becomes very real, you

57:48

know? I'll

57:50

tell you my funny story first. I stopped this

57:52

guy, I can't remember, doesn't matter

57:54

where, I stopped this guy and he had a van.

57:57

And I said, you're right, but can I see, yeah, driving

57:59

license. place and he said yeah yeah sure and he

58:01

gave me his driving license and I said

58:04

can you open up the back

58:07

and in that moment he he looked

58:09

at me and paused and

58:11

I sensed something wasn't right yeah

58:14

and he casually

58:16

opened up the back

58:18

as if I wasn't gonna ask

58:20

what's underneath that black sheet right

58:24

and I said but could you lift up the sheet

58:26

for me please and he

58:28

still was too afraid to say something

58:32

and he lifted up the sheet and

58:34

I swear there was six more

58:36

tubes there and

58:41

so I

58:42

just immediately cocked my weapon

58:45

safety catch off

58:48

but could you get down on the ground please

58:51

I didn't say it that politely but you

58:54

know yeah you didn't go I'd be injured gently yeah of

58:56

course of course and I shouts over to tone

58:58

who'd stopped another car at this this

59:02

we called it like an instantaneous checkpoint

59:04

or a snap

59:06

vehicle checkpoint snap VC

59:09

I think I think those checkpoints were sometimes

59:11

they came I guess with Intel you know say

59:14

if an undercover or an informer

59:16

said hey by the way we're moving these mortars

59:18

that would be a good place to have a checkpoint sometimes yeah

59:21

I think yeah that did but in this

59:23

case it genuinely was was Tony

59:25

went right fellas

59:27

snap VCP here snap vehicle

59:29

checkpoint here let's just just stop a few cars

59:32

the other the

59:32

other chaps in our brick

59:34

took up firing points

59:36

or took up cover and

59:39

I shout across the tone I said tongue over

59:42

here mate and he sort of

59:44

looks over the roof of this car and goes in

59:48

a minute Chris

59:49

I said no tone you want to come and see

59:51

this

59:53

he said why what have you found

59:56

a more a base plate and

59:58

I said Yeah, and

1:00:01

his face just dropped.

1:00:03

And he just let the guy go and in the

1:00:06

car he was chatting to.

1:00:11

And he come over and his

1:00:14

tongue come over the guy. Finally,

1:00:16

he's barely in mind, he's like

1:00:18

this close to... I

1:00:21

wasn't going to shoot him for no reason, but this

1:00:25

is a serious moment. This

1:00:27

is as serious as it gets, you know? I

1:00:30

don't know if the guy is going to do it, he's just been

1:00:32

cast. Yeah.

1:00:33

And as

1:00:38

Tone made his way over, the guy goes, The

1:00:41

fireworks! And

1:00:47

I'm going to be honest, I knew...

1:00:50

You know, I think he'd maybe told me

1:00:53

when I said get down on the ground, their fireworks,

1:00:55

I think he wasn't that stupid, this guy, but

1:00:58

it was some combination of

1:01:00

that.

1:01:01

And

1:01:05

Tone came over and we

1:01:08

pulled off this sheet. And yeah,

1:01:10

they were actually, they were cardboard tubes.

1:01:13

Oh, they weren't? It wasn't actually a board? No, and this

1:01:15

guy got his... He then got

1:01:17

a business card out and went, Look, I'm a firework

1:01:20

guy, honestly.

1:01:21

It was like... The only firework guy working

1:01:23

in Belfast during the troubles, like it's not a job

1:01:25

you want. It was just so weird. It

1:01:28

was so weird the way that he didn't

1:01:30

think that that was the foot.

1:01:32

Yeah, I think he thought if he just keeps his mouth shut,

1:01:34

he's going to avoid a load of hassle

1:01:36

here. But you look more conspicuous

1:01:39

here. So that was that. And then one night

1:01:41

when it actually happened, we

1:01:43

were in our room.

1:01:46

There was, I think, there was

1:01:48

four sets of bunk beds

1:01:51

in the room. So there's eight guys in that room. And

1:01:54

we were just in there, happened to be in there in between

1:01:56

patrols, a few of us.

1:01:58

And suddenly you just heard... Yeah,

1:02:02

eight

1:02:04

thumbs. Mapping four

1:02:07

doesn't really matter. Anyway,

1:02:09

you immediately recognize there's more, some

1:02:12

of the mortars have gone off

1:02:14

and they're currently in midair waiting to come

1:02:16

down,

1:02:17

possibly on. Oh, so you heard them go off. Okay,

1:02:19

interesting. That wasn't impact. That's just

1:02:21

the sound of them in the area. Yeah. The

1:02:24

second you heard that sort of whoomp,

1:02:27

you

1:02:27

grab your flat jacket,

1:02:29

pull it on top of you and get under the bed.

1:02:33

So we're under the bed

1:02:34

giggling and farting like school kids.

1:02:37

You know, this stuff's

1:02:39

quite, it's

1:02:40

all good fun until you

1:02:41

get hit. Yeah, yeah. Gallows.

1:02:44

It's good, it's great. You're in the thick of a jet.

1:02:46

Yeah, it was great fun when Jog got hit to be

1:02:48

honest. No,

1:02:50

particularly because he didn't get

1:02:52

hurt. Well, he actually did. He had a

1:02:55

massive bruise on his chest. It was just

1:02:57

quite incredible.

1:02:58

But

1:03:00

yeah, so we're all under the bed

1:03:02

laughing and

1:03:05

the mortars completely missed

1:03:07

the can. Or I think, you

1:03:10

know, X amount of them just didn't even

1:03:12

go off. Yeah, they weren't the most accurate,

1:03:14

I think. They weren't accurate. They were homemade.

1:03:17

The detonations didn't

1:03:20

always work.

1:03:22

But one of them did work. It

1:03:24

went through someone's,

1:03:25

the roof of someone's house and blew

1:03:27

their roof up.

1:03:29

And one came down next to a kitty on his

1:03:31

bike. And

1:03:32

fortunately, the kid wasn't hurt. It just, but

1:03:34

the blast knocked him off his bike.

1:03:37

I just remember thinking that was a

1:03:39

bit ironic that

1:03:41

you tried to score a hit on us. You've

1:03:43

actually just really

1:03:45

pissed off your own community.

1:03:49

But it wasn't always a near miss.

1:03:51

And Chris then began talking about losing one of his squad

1:03:53

mates.

1:03:56

Yeah, that was unfortunate

1:03:58

understatement of the year.

1:04:00

Yeah, well again if you want to go into it on tap. No,

1:04:02

no, no, it's absolutely fine. It's all it's all

1:04:05

public knowledge It's just incredibly

1:04:07

sad

1:04:08

this was I

1:04:10

Don't quote me on this, but

1:04:13

let's just say a

1:04:15

Month into our tour maybe three

1:04:17

years. It was fairly at the beginning

1:04:20

so we had all this stuff that we went through

1:04:22

and

1:04:24

then one day I was on the I

1:04:27

was on the gate and

1:04:29

You had a singer at the front gate.

1:04:31

So you had a marine at the top

1:04:34

with his essay 80 obviously looking

1:04:36

out

1:04:37

over the landscape

1:04:40

Which is kind of a bit of wasteland a few buildings

1:04:43

and

1:04:44

then

1:04:45

the guy on the bottom which in this case was

1:04:47

me open and shuts the gate

1:04:50

and

1:04:51

You

1:04:53

know to let cars in and out and select patrols

1:04:55

in and out and

1:04:57

A patrol split down the middle

1:04:59

half went out the back gate Half

1:05:02

came out the front gate

1:05:04

and I let the half out the front

1:05:07

gate

1:05:08

Shut the gate

1:05:10

Went back and you know sat down

1:05:12

on the chair or whatever and I'm

1:05:14

chatting away with my buddy upstairs

1:05:17

and

1:05:18

then the next thing You

1:05:20

just heard and bang the bang bang

1:05:22

bang bang bang bang bang bang

1:05:24

bang bang bang bang bang bang Bang

1:05:28

bang bang bang bang and It

1:05:34

come over the radio Contact

1:05:38

way out So

1:05:41

I think it was similar that was a I'm like

1:05:43

similar what that was that and

1:05:47

Now we're listening. It comes

1:05:49

back

1:05:51

Contact casualty

1:05:54

So I scoot across the guard room which

1:05:56

is literally just like over there and I'm

1:05:58

saying the gun what

1:06:00

what's going on

1:06:02

and then it come over the radio. A

1:06:07

car has gone

1:06:09

past our patrol. It's

1:06:13

refused to stop. It

1:06:16

fired.

1:06:18

I'm telling you what come over the radio.

1:06:21

I'm not going to tell you how the incident actually,

1:06:24

you know, there's a few things I don't want to say. Yeah,

1:06:26

of course. What come over the radio

1:06:29

was the cars fired two

1:06:31

rounds at the lads. The lads

1:06:33

have returned 18

1:06:35

shots or,

1:06:38

you know, the lads have returned fire.

1:06:41

And. And.

1:06:46

Gilly had been shot through the head. I

1:06:50

think he shot through the head, come out his neck

1:06:53

and.

1:06:55

And another chap

1:06:57

won't say his name, but he

1:06:59

tried to give him first aid. But

1:07:02

this chap had been in the Falklands. I pretty,

1:07:05

you know, knew

1:07:07

it was futile,

1:07:10

basically. And

1:07:12

and that was that. And it

1:07:17

was. It's

1:07:20

a bit bizarre this, you know.

1:07:23

For me, I was almost a bit sociopathic.

1:07:27

Like

1:07:29

we was over there to

1:07:31

scrap basically.

1:07:33

I mean, you know,

1:07:34

as professional soldiers, but

1:07:36

that's

1:07:38

we were going there for a for a knees

1:07:40

up, you know, it wasn't

1:07:42

this one like a children's

1:07:43

birthday party or something.

1:07:46

And

1:07:49

so I kind of like expected

1:07:52

we wouldn't all come back.

1:07:54

But I do remember our OC,

1:07:58

our captain, fallen asleep.

1:08:00

the next day before

1:08:03

we went out on patrol and he said right

1:08:06

fellas you know we've had an unfortunate

1:08:09

incident

1:08:14

we've lost Adam that was his name

1:08:17

he

1:08:18

said but you know as

1:08:21

Marines you reacted

1:08:23

with aggression

1:08:25

in a compromising situation

1:08:28

well done

1:08:30

now let's put it

1:08:31

put it behind us and let's get out

1:08:34

and do our job and

1:08:36

that was it and

1:08:39

we went out that gate and did our job

1:08:42

it's

1:08:43

some I think these things

1:08:45

don't really sink in until years

1:08:47

later I think when you're when you're in it you're kind of just

1:08:50

moving on to the next day and onto the next

1:08:52

stage well yeah I mean

1:08:54

I

1:08:59

don't even know sing I mean it very

1:09:01

much sunk in

1:09:03

it was very much a reality

1:09:05

that that that was never an issue

1:09:08

it's more the the kind of you

1:09:10

know I'm

1:09:17

struggling to I was gonna say laissez-faire

1:09:19

attitude but that's not the right term

1:09:22

it's just the fact that you take it on the chin

1:09:25

and just

1:09:25

get out and do your job I mean that was it

1:09:28

yeah I didn't really attach much

1:09:30

more importance to it

1:09:32

but I do know one lad I mean I'm

1:09:34

sure several people were quite damaged by

1:09:36

this incident

1:09:38

and did they did they catch the gunman well

1:09:44

let's just say they for anyone

1:09:46

listening might might know

1:09:48

this incident I'm just not gonna tell all of

1:09:50

it because it's not

1:09:51

it's not my place but

1:09:54

they found the car burned out

1:09:58

what I can tell you is out of that 18 round

1:09:59

There was only two

1:10:02

rounds on the car.

1:10:03

So, yeah, it's

1:10:08

probably

1:10:12

reacting

1:10:16

rather quickly in a tense

1:10:18

situation, you can say.

1:10:20

Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:24

So, yeah, like I say,

1:10:26

I think there were a couple of lads

1:10:30

that knew this chap

1:10:32

quite well. They obviously

1:10:34

had to

1:10:34

clean up the mess off the street,

1:10:37

which is never a pleasant thing.

1:10:42

And, yeah, that's it. Another

1:10:48

casualty

1:10:48

of war. Chris went on

1:10:53

to explain how other soldiers found the person who carried

1:10:55

out the attack.

1:10:58

Some of the lads did stop

1:11:00

the chap that shot Jock.

1:11:04

And

1:11:06

they beat him up in an alleyway.

1:11:08

That, I wouldn't,

1:11:09

it was

1:11:11

quite

1:11:13

simple. You hated the IRA. I

1:11:16

mean,

1:11:17

hate

1:11:19

isn't the right word. They were your enemy.

1:11:22

What are you supposed to do with an enemy other than

1:11:24

take them out? That's all that's in

1:11:26

your head.

1:11:27

Yeah. When you're stopping

1:11:29

someone on the way to cash their gyro,

1:11:31

or they off to see their nan or whatever

1:11:33

it is they tell you,

1:11:35

and you know who they are, you know

1:11:37

what's on their charge sheet,

1:11:39

you know how many years they've done in prison for this

1:11:41

offense or that offense,

1:11:43

you know that

1:11:44

they might have shot an 18-year-old

1:11:47

fusilier two

1:11:49

years ago, but they've got away with it. So,

1:11:52

you know, you know, you've

1:11:54

got,

1:11:56

like, all you want

1:11:58

is to meet this guy in a combat system.

1:11:59

situation. Yeah. So

1:12:02

you can take them. War exists, yeah. You

1:12:05

know, you almost envisage

1:12:07

this scenario.

1:12:10

I mean, that's it.

1:12:12

As for the population, the Catholic

1:12:15

population, and

1:12:18

I

1:12:21

can only say my experience, I can't

1:12:23

remember every, you know, and I was 19. I

1:12:25

didn't know, I wasn't as mature as

1:12:27

some of the guys were.

1:12:32

You just didn't like them.

1:12:35

You know, they

1:12:36

were just all sympathetic

1:12:38

to the cause.

1:12:40

They didn't like you. The

1:12:42

two-year-olds would try and lift up

1:12:44

bricks to throw at you, and the, you

1:12:47

know, this is the level of the hatred against

1:12:49

you. You

1:12:52

know, you didn't think much of them. Put

1:12:54

it this way.

1:12:55

Yeah. And I'm not saying I'm not trying

1:12:58

to justify it or say that's right. I'm just

1:13:00

saying that's it. Some of the actions

1:13:02

that are conducted by people

1:13:05

in theatres of war

1:13:07

are not pleasant.

1:13:08

They're not justifiable. They're just awful,

1:13:12

you know, to civilians and

1:13:15

players alike.

1:13:18

At one point, Chris began talking about an

1:13:20

incident in which a soldier accidentally killed

1:13:23

a young girl.

1:13:26

I won't say the chap's name because

1:13:28

it's all, it's in the past. He's

1:13:31

done his time and it,

1:13:34

but there was

1:13:36

a, I say soldier,

1:13:39

got down on one knee, fired these rounds

1:13:41

at a car,

1:13:43

and I think it was a 13-year-old girl

1:13:45

died as a result.

1:13:48

Now,

1:13:52

turn out to be joy riders, okay?

1:13:55

And because they were joy riding, they obviously

1:13:58

didn't want to stop when a soldier put in

1:13:59

hand up

1:14:01

or when they

1:14:02

accidentally drove into a checkpoint not

1:14:04

realising it was there.

1:14:06

Well, here's the

1:14:08

thing, you clearly have a set of rules, they're called

1:14:10

the rules of engagement but

1:14:13

you physically have this set of rules that I

1:14:15

think legally you have to carry them on you

1:14:17

as well.

1:14:18

Okay. Then you just have them tucked into

1:14:20

your combat jacket or whatever but here's

1:14:22

the thing, if

1:14:23

someone's moving away from you,

1:14:27

even if they've got weapons

1:14:30

or munitions on them, they

1:14:33

are technically not a threat to you.

1:14:37

Unless you're going to argue, yeah, but I thought

1:14:39

they were going to then go and use these weapons on

1:14:42

someone else which yes, is a fair argument.

1:14:45

That's legitimate, yeah. This is

1:14:48

what you're

1:14:49

going to have court cases for.

1:14:52

But

1:14:54

the fact that if you're in Northern Ireland and

1:14:56

you know joyriding was like the biggest crime

1:14:58

over there, which is crazy but that's

1:15:01

what the kids did.

1:15:02

We have one kid, because

1:15:05

the IRA liked to

1:15:07

show that they were policing the area, they

1:15:09

kneecapped this joyrider.

1:15:12

He was stopped like three days after he

1:15:14

got out of hospital. He's operating

1:15:16

the clutch of this car he's stolen with

1:15:19

his crutch, right? It's

1:15:21

just insane. It

1:15:24

was insane. That was another thing that was big when

1:15:26

we were there was kneecapping. People

1:15:30

almost like compliance when they were told, right,

1:15:33

you've screwed up, you've got to be kneecapped.

1:15:36

They're like, okay, where do I go? If

1:15:38

they liked you, they'd give you a fleshy

1:15:40

kneecap so they'd shoot you through the flesh. What

1:15:43

if they didn't like you, then you were maimed for life basically?

1:15:45

Yeah, they'd shoot you through the actual kneecap.

1:15:50

People used to wear shorts because then the

1:15:52

wound wouldn't get infected with clothing

1:15:54

and all this kind of

1:15:56

weird stuff. But

1:15:58

anyway. My point

1:16:00

is, I remember people I

1:16:03

knew hadn't

1:16:04

even served in the military, had

1:16:07

no idea,

1:16:09

had no idea around the circumstances

1:16:12

of this young girl being killed.

1:16:15

And I'm not here to judge or anything.

1:16:17

I'm just using this as an example.

1:16:19

These people were like, just

1:16:22

because the guy was in the British army, he

1:16:24

automatically should have got off that. And

1:16:27

I'm like, are you mental? You're

1:16:29

not even in the military. There's rules.

1:16:32

You can't just shoot who you want. Yeah.

1:16:35

You know, because you're a bit pissed off a car didn't

1:16:37

stop.

1:16:39

As the conversation was winding down,

1:16:41

Chris talked about how his mentality changed

1:16:44

after he left the military, and his thoughts

1:16:46

on the future. I'd

1:16:49

done my best to broaden my mind as an adult,

1:16:51

you know, and

1:16:52

not just to emancipate myself

1:16:55

as much as anything, because

1:16:57

you're under quite a, is quite

1:16:59

an indoctrination process you go through in the

1:17:01

military.

1:17:02

I bet there's youngsters who are in the IRA

1:17:04

that look back and go, look, you know, I

1:17:07

wouldn't have done the things I did had I not been

1:17:09

pressurized into doing them.

1:17:11

Even though I fully agree with the cause, I

1:17:13

just, I mean, it's just unfortunate

1:17:16

that young people get

1:17:17

used as pawns in the game.

1:17:19

You know, when we're feeling pain or hurt

1:17:22

or trauma or loss in our own lives,

1:17:26

as a natural byproduct

1:17:28

of being in that mind state, we

1:17:30

project it onto other people or other

1:17:33

issues.

1:17:34

You know, someone who's

1:17:36

living on a paradise island in, you

1:17:39

know, in the Caribbean and

1:17:43

they're set for life and their biggest

1:17:46

challenge of the day is like, do I take my kids

1:17:48

fishing or do I have another

1:17:50

pinnacle art?

1:17:52

Yeah. Like, do you think that they're thinking

1:17:54

about the Northern Island called?

1:17:56

One of the best interviews I think I had in the podcast

1:17:58

was Man by the Name of Richard. Richard Moore. So he

1:18:00

was, I think he was like 10 when he was on his bike

1:18:03

and he was struck right in the bridge of the nose with a rubber

1:18:05

bullet. So completely blinded as a child.

1:18:07

And as well as that, then that happened

1:18:09

to him. And then Bloody Sunday happened where his uncle

1:18:12

was killed. And Richard just remembers

1:18:14

his older brother screaming at his parents,

1:18:16

you know, they blinded Richard, they murdered

1:18:18

our uncle.

1:18:19

We have to get them. We have to get them. And

1:18:22

Richard's parents says that they basically

1:18:24

said, we don't do that. We don't respond

1:18:27

to hate and to violence. That's not

1:18:29

the way, you know, and it was a really beautiful

1:18:31

and he's devoted his entire life to

1:18:35

just to helping others, I guess, you know, and it was, it's really

1:18:37

beautiful that that does exist. And I think

1:18:39

it's really important to us. It's incredible.

1:18:41

And no, you know, there's

1:18:44

no better words to end this podcast

1:18:46

on. What

1:18:47

a what a can

1:18:49

say though, is you're not going

1:18:51

to get the same story from

1:18:53

everyone who served. No, and

1:18:56

I want to just thank you for taking the time to tell

1:18:58

me. No, it's, you know, I'm just about

1:19:00

peace, love, kindness and empathy for all people.

1:19:03

That's the only way forward. I don't want this shit for my

1:19:05

kids.

1:19:06

And for I will explain this later, but for anyone

1:19:08

listening, Chris's post,

1:19:12

store post that your entire

1:19:14

life story is quite fascinating.

1:19:16

In a nutshell, kind of working in a club in Hong

1:19:18

Kong with the triads,

1:19:21

gangs and everything, and then being addicted

1:19:23

to drugs and then being out like

1:19:25

I what I would encourage my listeners

1:19:27

to do is look into your story more. So whatever

1:19:29

format that is.

1:19:30

Yeah, it's very kind of you.

1:19:32

Yeah, because again, that'd be another two hours of talking. I

1:19:34

don't think we have it in us. Thanks, Oisín.

1:19:38

No problem. Thanks a lot, Chris. Yeah, no

1:19:40

problem.

1:19:43

That brings us to the end of my chat with Chris Thrall.

1:19:46

This is an edited interview. And if you want

1:19:48

to hear the entire interview, you can do so over at

1:19:50

patreon.com forward slash the troubles podcast.

1:19:54

Chris also has his own podcast where he has interviewed

1:19:57

hundreds of guests over the past few years.

1:20:00

His podcast is called Chris Thrall's Bought

1:20:02

the T-Shirt Podcast,

1:20:03

and you can find it on all major apps, and

1:20:06

you can watch video of the interviews on YouTube.

1:20:09

That's it from me. Thanks, and

1:20:12

see you next time.

1:20:40

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