0:06

Hi, it's Erica. This is the second

0:08

part of a special guest series for The Turning.

0:11

If you missed part one, I want to jump in and tell

0:13

you about a new book called The Swans

0:15

of Harlem. Five Black Ballerinas,

0:18

fifty years of sisterhood and their

0:20

reclamation of a groundbreaking history.

0:23

In it, writer Karen Balby records

0:25

the largely forgotten histories of five

0:27

black ballerinas who changed the art

0:29

form today. In our second

0:31

of the series, Karen speaks with former

0:33

ballerina Sila Rohan.

0:39

In every possible way. Sila Rohan

0:42

was an unlikely ballerina. As

0:44

a child, she survived polio and the temporary

0:47

loss of her legs. Dance

0:49

was essential to her healing and

0:51

to her life as an artist. When

0:53

she first joined the Dance Theater of Harlem,

0:56

Sheila was a twenty seven year old mother

0:58

of three young children. She

1:00

had long since put away her point shoes.

1:03

It was her sister, Nannette Bearden, who

1:06

saw the notice in the New York Times that Arthur

1:08

Mitchell was looking for black, classically

1:11

trained dancers, and she convinced

1:13

her baby sister to make the trek from

1:15

Staten Island up to Harlem.

1:18

Under the tutelage of Mitchell, Sheila

1:20

would travel the world, performing

1:23

on the grandest of stages. Now

1:25

in her eighties, she continues to

1:28

challenge expectations of

1:30

what a dancer looks like. Welcome

1:32

Sheila, Hey, Karen,

1:36

Sheila, your journey to becoming

1:38

a professional ballerina began

1:41

in such dramatic fashion. You

1:43

were diagnosed with polio

1:46

at seven years old. Can

1:48

you just tell me a little bit about being

1:50

in a house of seven sisters

1:53

and losing

1:55

control of your legs?

1:58

Well, yes, I get you could imagine

2:00

how traumatic it was for my

2:02

mother and my sisters.

2:05

I'm even thinking now that I was younger

2:07

than seven. The polio

2:10

epidemic was already in the environment

2:13

at that time. I remember

2:15

it started. I had a terrible headache.

2:18

I had been ill, like say

2:21

a flu or a cold or something,

2:24

so I was at home. I

2:26

remember I called out to my sister to

2:29

tell her that I had a pain in my head.

2:32

Then I really started feeling ill,

2:36

and of course they called a doctor.

2:39

I don't remember going to the hospital, but

2:42

he diagnosed me. And

2:45

I keep the memory of when

2:47

I overheard a conversation between

2:50

my mother and the doctor and

2:52

he said you never know how these

2:54

things go. He said she could

2:56

be crippled. And

3:00

when I heard that, I

3:03

just was determined.

3:05

No.

3:06

I had decided in my

3:08

little mind that that was

3:10

not going to happen. And

3:12

I recommend that to everyone.

3:16

And I said, no, I am not going

3:18

to be crippled. I think my body

3:21

just took it from there.

3:23

And you do regain use of your

3:25

legs. The braces come yeah, and

3:27

the doctor says to your mother, what.

3:30

I need exercise? He recommended

3:33

exercise classes to build muscles.

3:36

In my legs.

3:37

And then the only exercise

3:40

we knew or the dance studios.

3:42

I guess maybe nowadays I would take gymnastics

3:47

or go to the gym, but

3:50

then it was danced. So we

3:52

found a studio, but it was a neighborhood

3:55

school, ballet, tap

3:58

and contemporary.

4:01

Your mother was keeping

4:03

food on the table for seven girls.

4:06

Was dance classes a luxury? Did

4:08

she have the money to pay for those classes?

4:11

My sister Nannett and also Evelyn,

4:14

they were the two oldest sisters and

4:16

they were working. They

4:18

were able to scrape together

4:21

the money. But then you know what

4:23

was the five dollars? You know, back

4:25

then we took forties We took me

4:27

that in nineteen forties and fifties.

4:30

But even so, you know, if you.

4:32

Only had twenty dollars, five dollars is a lot.

4:35

So but

4:37

they managed, yes, and I went

4:39

there for quite a while.

4:42

Chila, you quickly outgrow your neighborhood

4:44

Staten Island Studio, and the teacher

4:46

says you deserve better training.

4:49

Your sister, Nanette, who's married at

4:51

this point to the famous artist RAMAYR. Bearden,

4:54

says she'll pay for you to take classes in Manhattan.

4:57

Can you talk about the support she showed you

4:59

as a young artist.

5:01

From the very beginning when

5:03

we started making the trips

5:05

into Manhattan. And she was excited

5:07

as I was. She was very pleased

5:10

because she loved dance herself.

5:12

I think she wanted to be a dancer.

5:15

You know.

5:15

She would buy my point

5:18

shoes, my tights,

5:20

and my you know, my leotade

5:23

and my little skirts.

5:24

And it's

5:26

not just that she was sort of funding

5:29

your dance education. She was taking

5:31

you to see the ballet.

5:33

Oh yeah, wasn't she.

5:35

Yeah, my first New York City ballet,

5:38

Nutcracker, we went to see.

5:41

Yeah, it was wonderful.

5:44

Yeah, what was that like?

5:46

Sitting in the audience and seeing professional

5:48

ballet.

5:49

Oh yeah, it was like, how could

5:52

I even think about

5:54

doing the ballet? Being on

5:57

stage and looking like that? What

5:59

do I have to do to get

6:02

there?

6:02

To attain this?

6:03

Yeah? Do you have a

6:06

sense at this

6:08

point in your training that

6:10

there is a place for a young black

6:12

ballerina on a stage like that?

6:14

Not ballet?

6:16

I mean I've seen other dances, like

6:18

on Broadway and in other

6:21

dance companies. Modern dance company

6:23

like Martha Graham always had black dancers,

6:27

but not really for myself.

6:30

I think I didn't believe that I could attain

6:32

the level of excellence

6:35

that has to be done,

6:38

and then what for Who's going to

6:40

hire me? So I was doing it much

6:42

because the love of it at

6:45

that time. I wasn't thinking career. I

6:48

know my sister Nanet was. I

6:50

see that later on. I see that she

6:53

was trying to build me up

6:56

to get me to be

6:58

a dancer period, not just the ballerina.

7:02

What did you love about it? What about

7:04

the art form spoke to you?

7:07

The way that classical ballet

7:10

creates and interprets movement.

7:14

I love the lines, the

7:16

graceful arms,

7:19

just the technique itself. Trying

7:21

to learn the purouettes and

7:24

holding the arab esque, and

7:26

every day you were working towards something.

7:28

Every day you want to get your leg

7:30

higher, you want to get your muscles stronger,

7:33

and later on you have to learn to

7:35

listen to the music. As

7:38

you get older and the training

7:40

advances, you learn. Well,

7:43

they did pour the bra because of this.

7:46

You put some meaning to it, but

7:48

it was just the challenge of

7:52

learning and wanting to express

7:54

yourself with this technique.

7:56

Are my toes? And then

7:59

they didn't end. Were you to

8:01

soften up the shoe. They just

8:03

put your foot in there, laced

8:06

them up and expected

8:08

the shoot to break in As you work.

8:12

Your education, your dance education

8:15

is interrupted when you're eighteen

8:18

and you and your childhood

8:20

sweetheart get pregnant and

8:22

you realize you're going to have your first child.

8:26

How sad were you to lose

8:29

those saturdays in a

8:31

studio.

8:32

Yes it was sad, but

8:36

I was

8:38

trying to accept it. You know

8:40

that happened, and now I'm

8:42

doing this.

8:44

After your son. You

8:47

have two daughters. You've

8:50

largely hung your point shoes up

8:53

because of the demands of motherhood,

8:55

but you're still very much dancing

8:59

and you're deep into an art scene

9:02

in Staten Island. Can you tell

9:04

me a little bit about that.

9:06

A group of us, always

9:09

involved in the theater, dance,

9:12

singers, musicians,

9:14

we came together and we barred,

9:18

okay, we poor people artists.

9:22

You would bother my child

9:24

will take dance class and you

9:26

would do the pottery. And

9:29

we had that going on. And so I

9:32

met artists from all

9:34

over all races

9:37

black, White, Asian, Spanish,

9:41

and I guess it was the late

9:43

fifties or so sixties

9:46

we created the Brothers

9:49

and Sisters United, which was

9:51

our acknowledgement of the civil

9:53

rights movement. You know,

9:55

it was a whole revolution to

9:58

know you as blackness

10:00

back to Africa? Who are

10:02

we and why are we here? So

10:05

Brothers and Sisters United, that's

10:08

what that company was

10:10

about.

10:10

And we were all young, you

10:13

know.

10:13

We had a director and we had

10:15

a choreographer, but we

10:17

all really didn't know what we were doing, but

10:21

we were doing it. Yeah,

10:23

And we did one performance

10:27

at Lincoln Center. They used to

10:29

put up this platform around the fountain,

10:32

and we managed to get

10:34

a booking there, so it was a big deal for

10:37

us. And we did our

10:39

program which was about slavery.

10:42

Was that kind of a story

10:44

of song and dance and

10:47

music. Yeah,

10:49

it was a community endeavor. We didn't

10:51

make any money. We didn't have any money.

10:53

You know, you went out of pocket most

10:56

of the time to do things. But

10:58

that's how we started. We also

11:01

had, which was

11:03

a most spiritual endeavor,

11:06

was the universal Temple of the arts.

11:09

And they were painters and musician

11:12

writers. So we also

11:14

would just gather together

11:17

to try to find out who am

11:19

I. It was

11:21

that sixties, you know, who

11:23

am I? Where are we? Where

11:26

are we going? You know that type

11:28

of thing.

11:29

Those are the great questions posed

11:32

by.

11:32

Art, and it was a wonderful

11:34

time. It was a wonderful time.

11:36

It was some awakenings

11:39

at that time.

11:40

Yeah,

11:43

you're deeply part of this local arts

11:45

scene. You're a twenty seven year old

11:48

mother of three, a

11:50

very full life. And

11:53

Nanette calls

11:55

like she always does, and

11:58

she tells you about a man named Arthur

12:00

Mitchell auditioning dancers. Can

12:02

you just tell me about that? Call?

12:05

My sister mine it. She

12:09

was a woman about town. She had a lot of

12:11

connections and contacts. So

12:13

she said, someone told me about

12:16

Arthur Mitchell starting

12:18

a program. That's what I

12:20

thought. It was a program up

12:23

in Harlem, and I, you know, I was like, well,

12:25

now do I want to go? Traveling

12:28

way up there? But anyway

12:31

I went. I went to the audition.

12:34

Did you know it was an audition for

12:36

classical dancers?

12:37

Yes, I knew he was looking for ballet.

12:40

And I didn't know who Arthur Mitchell was. We

12:42

didn't have Google then. But Nanette

12:45

knew of him. She knew

12:47

of him and his story. And

12:49

so I went and

12:51

I passed the audition. You

12:54

know, he told me to come back.

12:56

You didn't tell Arthur that

12:58

you were a twenty seven year old mother of

13:00

three? What did you tell him?

13:03

I don't remember ever.

13:07

You know, it wasn't like you sat down to

13:09

an interview. It was very informal.

13:11

He said, you you, you, you come back,

13:14

you know, And I didn't speak

13:17

on it. It wasn't an

13:19

issue right then. I just lied.

13:25

What was obvious in

13:27

the ballet world that told

13:29

you you don't announce yourself

13:31

as a mother of three children to a

13:34

director?

13:35

Why, oh well no, well

13:37

then he would have just said goodbye.

13:40

I'm almost like automatically, I

13:43

mean, what are you doing here? You

13:46

know, if I had already

13:48

made a name for myself and was a well

13:50

known dancer. Maybe you'd get an

13:52

audition, but no, that

13:54

was unheard of.

13:56

To the point that when your kids would

13:58

come to the school on Saturdays,

14:01

they were told to refer to you as their aunt.

14:04

Yes, we

14:06

made a game of it, the

14:10

daughter of a deeply practical

14:14

immigrant mother who

14:17

wasn't convinced that giving up your part time.

14:19

Job that paid a reliable salary

14:22

for some ballet company

14:25

was a good idea. Your

14:27

husband thought there was beauty

14:30

in your decision. It

14:32

is very notable that

14:34

in the late sixties

14:37

you have a husband that says,

14:40

go pursue your dream. I'll

14:42

figure it out with the kids. We'll figure

14:44

it out with the kids. Can you

14:46

talk a little bit about his support

14:49

of your life as a dancer.

14:51

In Devas on Staten Island, the

14:54

brothers and Sisters United and

14:56

whatever he was a part of he

14:59

was always he was a part of this community,

15:03

and he knew me in a

15:05

sense that this is what I did.

15:08

This was just what I did, anything

15:10

to do with the theater and

15:12

getting people together and dance

15:15

and all that. So no,

15:18

he didn't object at all. You

15:20

know, it was hard on us because

15:23

a little bit of stipend that I

15:25

got it was like carfare

15:27

and lunch money. It wasn't really

15:30

you know, anything you could depend

15:32

on. But we made

15:34

it through.

15:36

We managed.

15:39

Tell me about that first year

15:41

at Dance Theater of Harlem.

15:44

Arthur Mitchell is mustling together

15:47

this company. He's training

15:49

you all to be unified and

15:52

performance ready. What

15:54

was the pace, like, how

15:58

hard were the days?

16:00

Whooa, yes, because we

16:02

started at nine, so

16:04

you know, my day started at seven, getting

16:07

up tall nine with exercise

16:10

classes. We would have body conditioning

16:13

and pilates, then

16:16

company class and

16:18

then hours of rehearsal and

16:20

then you break and

16:22

then you would have to come back in the evening to

16:25

dance. So it was very

16:27

vigorous.

16:28

Tell me about racing for the Staten Island

16:31

ferry at the end of a long night.

16:32

Yes, yes, And if

16:35

you missed that boat, you know, you wait

16:37

another half hour, and after like eleven

16:39

or so, you waited an hour, you

16:42

know.

16:42

And talking with the other Swans

16:44

during the reporting of this book, they talk about

16:47

going to clubs afterwards

16:49

or getting together for drinks.

16:52

You had a very different life. You were rushing

16:54

home to see if there was food.

16:56

For school lunches the next day, homework

16:59

and all of that.

17:01

Yeah, this is a lot of juggling

17:04

and a lot of sacrifice you're

17:06

making. What made

17:08

it all worth it? Why did you want

17:10

to be a part of the dance Theater of Harlem?

17:13

What was it giving you?

17:15

Well, I found out,

17:17

we found out that author Mitchell

17:19

really had a vision. He

17:21

talked to us about the

17:23

civil rights movement and how

17:26

we are a part of that change

17:29

in the country. He would speak

17:31

to us about how blacks

17:33

weren't accepted in

17:35

the theater, how jobs are

17:37

very scarce, and

17:40

he was very fortunate that balance

17:42

sheet picked him out. But that's one

17:45

out of a thousand, you see.

17:48

So after a while it became I'm

17:51

a part of something. It's

17:53

not just I'm out there trying to

17:55

audition and trying to be in somebody's

17:57

company.

17:58

We were hard at something.

18:02

Tell me about why.

18:05

A year into the company's life

18:08

you decide I've got to tell Arthur

18:10

Mitchell, I have kids at home.

18:14

I guess it became like an issue.

18:17

We were progressing move

18:19

up to a certain level,

18:22

and he was preparing, you

18:24

know, for touring. Well,

18:27

I didn't know how it was going to go, and

18:30

I was trying to prepare myself

18:33

to accept whatever happened, But

18:36

he just said, you should have told me. I

18:38

could have given you a little bit more money

18:42

than you were making, so long

18:44

as it doesn't interfere

18:47

with the work we're doing. Then

18:50

he was fine with it.

18:52

And sure enough you saw a little bump

18:54

in your page.

18:55

Yeah, right, a little bumpy.

18:59

But he didn't change towards me. I

19:02

was still a part of the

19:05

group. I still got corrections

19:08

and he still you know, noticed

19:10

me. It's not like, oh well, I'd just write

19:12

her off, you know. No.

19:15

In conversations, some of the

19:18

women expressed having

19:21

this very complicated relationship

19:24

with mister Mitchell that was kind of like

19:26

a father figure persona

19:29

in their lives, and they were so

19:32

sensitive to his approval and

19:35

craved his approval and were

19:37

flattened by his disapproval. It

19:40

seemed like you had a slightly more

19:44

mature relationship with him.

19:46

What was the dynamic between you and

19:49

Arthur and what do you think accounted

19:51

for it? You're not holding

19:53

him up on a high.

19:55

I think he respected me

19:59

and that I, you know, was a mother,

20:02

and that I was still trying

20:05

to work at my craft and

20:08

I did try to hold my own I

20:10

was always trying to get better and

20:12

working and taking my correct so and

20:15

I was a part of the group.

20:17

He didn't hold the same power over

20:20

you.

20:21

Well, I think it's because I was more mature,

20:23

had a husband, you

20:26

know. Yeah,

20:28

I was a little afraid of him. Like if

20:30

he would yell at you for something

20:33

you were doing wrong, or something happened on

20:35

stage, of course I would

20:37

feel something. But some

20:39

of the girls would get devastated,

20:42

you know, to the point of tears. But

20:45

I just think because I was a little older,

20:48

he didn't hit under my skin.

20:51

Yeah, it's more I felt

20:53

bad for the others when

20:56

it happened to the other ladies, I felt for

20:58

them that they had to go

21:01

through it.

21:01

Yeah.

21:02

Do you remember a moment of witnessing

21:06

him just tearing a ballerina

21:08

up?

21:09

Well, I guess tearing

21:12

him up is kind of harsh,

21:14

but yeah, you know you'd hear things

21:17

like, yeah, you're getting fat. You

21:19

couldn't do that step because your thighs are

21:21

too big, you know, ugly.

21:24

Thing, you know, mean things.

21:28

You didn't take that correction I gave you last

21:30

time, so you're stupid. He

21:32

could be very mean. As I did

21:35

find out that he wasn't the only one

21:37

that this was like, how they are an

21:40

ego. You know, this

21:43

is my company and you.

21:46

Just do as I say. Yeah.

21:48

He's the boys too, especially the

21:50

men. He really gave it to them.

21:52

Yeah.

21:55

Did you have a specific

21:58

role in the company in which people

22:01

thought of you as a

22:03

soft place to land? Would

22:05

people turn to you as for

22:08

a source of comfort?

22:10

I think so yes.

22:12

I think I was like Auntie,

22:14

Yeah, Auntie. Walter

22:17

Rains and I were the oldest in the

22:19

company at that time,

22:22

so we were like Marvin Pop.

22:26

Yeah.

22:28

Can you talk about the magic of

22:32

the life what Dance Theater of Harlem

22:34

gave you in terms of taking

22:38

you around the world.

22:41

The first trip to Europe when we went to Italy.

22:44

Before that, we had did the Caribbean

22:46

and that was good because I had never traveled

22:49

and that was wonderful. But

22:51

then to go

22:54

to Europe, to go to Italy

22:57

and Amsterdam and

22:59

some of the places, you know, like that

23:02

was really overwhelmed.

23:04

I couldn't believe it. You know, it's

23:07

just me and I really hear.

23:09

And audiences loved you all.

23:11

Oh, they loved us

23:14

encore after on, Like it was

23:17

really amazing. I

23:19

remember thinking, well, are they serious?

23:23

We can't be that good. I mean,

23:26

what's so good about us that they're raving

23:28

like this?

23:28

You know, I can't believe it.

23:30

Yeah, but we were proud of what

23:32

we were doing, and we were

23:36

loving what we were doing. Even though it

23:38

was hard, I

23:41

was glad I was doing it. I felt fortunate

23:44

that I've had this opportunity

23:46

to do it for however long it

23:49

lasts.

23:50

Why did you leave the company when

23:53

you did?

23:55

Because the work, the scheduling, the

23:57

touring, it became too

24:00

much for me. The children were getting older.

24:03

You know, were you heartbroken to

24:05

leave?

24:07

I won't say heartbroken. It

24:09

was sad to leave the company, and

24:12

also my friends because

24:14

they were also my family. But

24:18

as you know, I didn't really

24:21

leave because I stayed

24:23

and I worked in the school. He was

24:26

building a school then,

24:29

so I became a teacher.

24:32

I started with the little ones, and

24:34

then I still took company class, and

24:38

I acted as an alternate if

24:40

someone was out with the women, and

24:43

I was always allowed to, you

24:45

know, watch rehearsals, and so I

24:48

was around all the time, so to

24:50

speak.

24:51

Dancers often talk about how their careers

24:54

are famously short. But one

24:56

of the things I love most about your

24:58

life is that your big role

25:00

came to you at fifty when you

25:02

were cast in Gordon Parks film,

25:05

Martin. Can you share

25:08

what it was like to put point shoes back

25:10

on at fifty years old?

25:12

Yeah? Yeah,

25:14

but you know, I'd

25:17

known dancers, and even now

25:20

with everyone knowing so much about the physical

25:22

body and what it can do, there

25:24

are dances fifty or

25:27

so in dance companies. They

25:29

may be in the core, they may be demi

25:31

soloists, but it happens.

25:35

Maybe back then it didn't, Yeah,

25:38

Sheila.

25:39

When you're in your seventies, you join

25:41

a dance group called the five plus

25:43

Ensemble for dancers

25:45

over the age of fifty who still have the

25:48

juice to perform. I wonder

25:51

if you could just talk about the feeling of taking

25:53

the stage for a performance at seventy

25:55

five as opposed to a

25:58

nervous young woman at twenty.

26:00

When you're younger, it's like

26:04

I want to please a choreographer. I

26:06

want to do the best I can in this part

26:10

so that I can be a good

26:12

part of this production. It's always

26:14

someone other than you outside

26:18

of you. Am I doing?

26:19

It's right?

26:20

What do I have to do next? Now

26:23

that I'm older? It's

26:25

just a pleasure to

26:27

be here. This is who

26:30

I am, This is my expression.

26:34

I offer it to you and

26:37

hope that you can get

26:40

something.

26:40

Out of it.

26:41

Just look, just listen, just enjoy

26:45

or not.

26:48

Yeah.

26:49

The filmmaker Gabrie Christa saw

26:51

one of those performances of

26:54

the five plus ensemble and

26:56

she told me it struck her.

26:59

Why don't we see more older

27:01

people on stage? Because this is

27:03

where the power is.

27:06

This is performers at

27:09

peace and at home

27:11

with their bodies. And she made a

27:13

beautiful short film about you

27:16

called Sheila last

27:19

year, and it's such

27:21

an ode

27:23

to your form.

27:26

Just to see you sitting in a leotard

27:29

and then standing up and dancing.

27:31

There's so much history in

27:34

your body and your movements. What

27:37

is your relationship with your body at

27:39

eighty two and have you been at

27:41

peace with the aging process?

27:45

Yes, I believe I am. I

27:48

still do exercise yoga, I

27:51

no longer do a bar no, and.

27:54

I'm very happy and appreciative

27:57

that I was able to

27:59

do or I did for so

28:01

long. It helped me to

28:04

know myself and it

28:07

filled that creative need.

28:10

When we came together for the ensemble,

28:13

I wasn't even nervous about performing,

28:17

whereas you know other time throughout

28:19

my whole career, I was a nervous

28:21

type of person. But

28:25

yeah, like you say, more at peace and

28:28

unfortunate that I managed

28:30

to get here, because I can

28:32

imagine there are other dancers

28:34

and stuff who are very frustrated careers

28:37

were cut short or they had

28:39

an injury that they had to

28:41

deal with. All Now I have to teach because

28:43

I can't dance. You know, you

28:46

go through all of that, and I'm

28:49

good.

28:52

Sheila, You and the four other

28:54

Swans started the one hundred and fifty

28:56

second Street Black Ballet Legacy

28:58

Council in twenty two because

29:01

you were tired of your legacies being forgotten

29:04

by history. Since

29:06

then, you've met every Tuesday afternoon

29:08

without fail. I've been lucky to sit

29:10

in on several of those meetings, and

29:13

there was something so beautiful and consistent

29:16

about the way you women would come together.

29:20

Last year you lost Gail McKinney

29:22

Griffith, one of

29:24

the founding members of the one hundred and fifty

29:27

second Street Black Beallet Legacy

29:29

Council and a founding member

29:31

of Dance Theater of Harlem. I'm

29:33

just wondering how comforting it

29:35

is to you to have been in such close

29:37

communion with her over the last few years.

29:41

Gail was always a light

29:45

in our lives. Everyone

29:48

will say that to you. Let's

29:50

just she was so her

29:52

passing is big.

29:56

That she's not here with us.

30:00

Latched onto the word, well,

30:03

the meaning of sisterhood.

30:06

That's who we are. We're not just

30:09

an alumni group coming

30:11

together for memoirs. We've

30:14

known each other so long

30:16

and we got to know each

30:18

other again.

30:20

Does it provide any comfort to

30:22

know that she put her story down on record.

30:25

Oh, yes, yes

30:27

it does, because I want everyone

30:30

to know her. She was

30:32

an angel. She was

30:34

human, you know, ups and downs,

30:36

in and outs, but basically

30:40

essence, she was an angel.

30:44

Yeah, just

30:47

using your wisdom and your

30:49

wide lens, what

30:51

would you what

30:54

would you say to young dancers

30:56

who had all of the

30:58

ambition and the

31:01

hunger starting their careers. How

31:04

would you counsel them to

31:06

hold onto themselves like

31:09

you really did yourself.

31:13

You have to try to

31:16

know yourself, really try

31:19

to grow up inside,

31:22

because putting

31:25

a dance on the stage

31:29

has obstacles. You

31:31

see, it's not just the creative

31:34

spirit and the creative source. See

31:38

that's in you. But then you have

31:40

to deal with business. You

31:43

have to deal with a production

31:46

and that's not always a

31:49

creative spiritual environment.

31:53

So you have to create that and

31:55

have that and build that within

31:57

yourself. No

32:00

one doesn't want to see you dance. That's

32:03

their problem, you see.

32:05

You have to try to

32:07

know yourself as best

32:09

you can and be

32:11

able to deal with

32:14

the obstacles and the

32:16

criticisms and the on

32:19

equality of what

32:22

happens in the theater. I mean, it's

32:24

worldwide and in some

32:26

way you may make a change. These

32:29

young dancers now they may make a big change

32:32

in the theater. This could

32:34

be a revolution for them, evolution,

32:38

you see, to make that change

32:41

because we see there are more black

32:43

dances that we get to see, and you see

32:46

how fabulous they are. See

32:49

Alvin Elliot has some of the to me, the

32:51

greatest dancers in the world, and

32:54

that includes Russia,

32:57

you.

32:57

Know, the French.

32:58

But we need to be used

33:01

and it's coming

33:03

because nobody wants to put up with that foolishness

33:06

anymore. I think.

33:09

It's just now. It's still

33:11

a problem.

33:14

It's still a problem, but don't

33:16

let it stop you because

33:19

like we just said, a change

33:21

is coming. You're

33:23

going to be part of that change.

33:26

So have faith in your

33:29

artistic abilities. You

33:31

know that you've been gifted with it's

33:33

to gift.

33:38

Thank you, Sheila, Thank you so much

33:40

for this conversation and for all

33:42

our conversations, and

33:45

mostly thank you so much for

33:47

the example of how one can

33:50

be an artist in this world.

33:52

And thank you Karen for

33:56

for telling our stories.

33:58

Thank you very much.

34:07

That was Sheila Rohan talking with Karen Bealby,

34:10

the author of The Swans of Harlem, which is available

34:12

wherever books and audio books are sold.

34:16

And remember keep an eye out for season

34:18

three of The Turning and thanks for listening.