0:00

I think public markets are reflective

0:02

of the environment right now and private

0:04

are not. People raised a lot of capital when

0:06

capital was easy. You don't need to be honest

0:09

on valuation every day. There's no one

0:11

forcing while everyone in the ecosystem is

0:13

incentivized

0:14

and able to maintain

0:16

pretend valuation. This is twenty VC

0:18

with me Harry Stebbings. If you haven't listened to our

0:20

episode from Wednesday with Kevin and Mike from

0:22

Instagram, then that really is a must. But I'm

0:25

so excited state to be joined by Joey Levin,

0:27

CEO of IAC, where he's overseen

0:29

the constant evolution of the company, including

0:32

the initial IPO and subsequent spin

0:34

off of Match Group, the spin off of Vimeo,

0:36

and the acquisitions of Angie's list, and

0:39

care dot com. And if that wasn't enough, IAC October

0:41

twenty twenty two, Joey was also appointed

0:43

as CEO of Angie Inc. And in addition

0:45

to this, Joey serves on the boards of IAC,

0:48

Churro an MGM resource international.

0:50

But before we dive into the show today, something

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0:55

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3:46

now arrived at your destination. Joey,

3:50

huge thanks for joining me to have heard so many

3:52

great things from many mutual

3:53

friends. That's my pleasure. And if you didn't

3:55

hear

3:56

great things from my friends, I don't know who you'd hear

3:58

great things from. They all said the same thing which we're gonna

4:00

dive into today, but I wanna start with a little bit

4:02

of an abnormal start. Your fascinating position

4:04

stay. But what did you wanna be when you were younger?

4:07

When you

4:07

said, hey, what do you wanna be when you grow

4:09

up? I actually wanted to be

4:11

a lawyer because my dad's a lawyer.

4:13

I wanted to be Clarence Darrow. I had

4:15

read books about him, and stories about him, and

4:18

he's from the Midwest, then I kind

4:20

of class in a lot of ways and that was

4:22

what I wanted to

4:22

be. I'm intrigued. Some people feel this

4:24

kind of

4:25

success was always inevitable. They may not

4:27

have known where I came from. Did you feel that you'd

4:29

always be successful? No. But I do

4:31

think that one of the things that's important

4:33

that I see in a lot of successful people is

4:35

they come in clusters. And I

4:37

think that the reason they come in clusters

4:40

is because they have good role models

4:42

that they see what's possible. In other words, if

4:44

you're in a group where people are achieving certain You

4:46

realize that level of achievement is possible.

4:49

I think I've been a beneficiary of that

4:51

in a lot of the environments that I've been in. Who's you

4:53

closest

4:53

mentor, you said about coming in classes and learning

4:55

from people. Do

4:56

you have a mentor or two that really sound out?

4:58

I have been very fortunate to learn

5:00

closely from some amazing business

5:03

people. Of

5:03

course, Barry Diller, who I still work

5:05

with every day. Jack Welch was a very

5:08

close friend. One thing that I loved about

5:10

your IAC home was also like duration. You've

5:12

been a IAC now for twenty years since

5:14

two thousand and three. I think it is. It's rare

5:16

to have such duration especially

5:18

today. When if you look at one's two elements

5:20

where your career really propelled within

5:22

IAC internally, what was it?

5:24

One doing the work to have the information

5:27

understand things better is really

5:29

important. And I when I was doing mergers and

5:31

acquisitions, it was just learning everything about a

5:33

company that we were considering, acquiring, reading

5:35

all of their public filings, reading all their transcripts,

5:37

reading everything that they publish to really understand

5:39

it inside and out. I think that was important

5:42

in terms of hard work and then having

5:44

opinions my opinions were definitely

5:46

not always right. But having opinions, I

5:48

think, is a really important thing

5:50

to advancing in Oregon digitization IAC you'd

5:52

stand out with

5:53

opinions. You'd take a position and taking a

5:55

position is an important thing to do. Do you agree with

5:57

strong opinions at least the hell? Yes.

6:00

Good. I'm glad I'm very much welcome. Very much.

6:02

Yeah. We mentioned duration there and the length of

6:04

time you've been at IAC. As I said, we don't

6:06

see that very often today. When you get

6:08

back at IAC, what was most challenging

6:10

period? I'd say we're going through a challenging

6:12

period right now in a sense. It's

6:14

always and we've been through this a similar

6:16

period in the past. When there is

6:18

a big negative adjustment in

6:20

the surrounding environment. Valuations change

6:23

really quickly, which is probably most acutely

6:25

felt, but everything changes very quickly.

6:27

Your ability to generate revenue changes very

6:29

quickly. Your ability to manage your expenses

6:31

changes very quickly. Your ability to get credit

6:34

for things changes very quickly. And when

6:36

those things happen, it's a big adjustment.

6:38

It's a big adjustment because one just dealing

6:40

with those things individually is hard. But two,

6:42

the organization isn't used to

6:44

IAC, meaning for people who joined the organization

6:47

in the prior ten years, let's say,

6:49

it was nothing but up. Now no organization goes

6:51

up steadily forever. But they were IAC

6:54

an environment where for ten years, they saw nothing

6:56

but up. And so you can develop habits and

6:58

develop points of view that are

7:00

related to that and that are unhealthy and

7:02

that need to be unlearned and that need to be

7:04

changed. And so managing that kind of change

7:06

among people in an organization is

7:09

is a hard thing to Oh, I got

7:11

asked this one. What behavior traits or

7:13

attitudes do you think have been most dangerous

7:15

that this generation have lived through

7:17

only in vast of times have picked

7:20

up. What are the most dangerous traits? I think

7:22

the most dangerous one and

7:24

the two biggest are macro finance

7:26

events of the decade or so

7:28

more than a decade, I should say, was

7:30

two thousand eight, the great financial crisis,

7:33

and the pandemic. Those were two very

7:36

profound ones. Both of those cases,

7:38

there was a government bailout.

7:40

And I think the government did the right thing

7:42

and saved jobs. But the lesson

7:44

that's learned is there's a bailout. So

7:46

whatever you do, there's a bailout. And that's

7:48

not always available and not always true,

7:51

and all for long term optimism.

7:53

But I think that the level of entitlement that

7:55

we see in the younger generation

7:57

of that year, those years IAC, I think,

7:59

related to that a general

8:02

bull market supported by when

8:04

things go

8:04

wrong, don't worry, somebody else comes to the rescue

8:06

externally. I have my teams constantly.

8:09

And people still want a seeding me high salaries.

8:11

They still want a seeding me bonuses. They

8:13

still won't work from

8:14

home. They won't work life balance. They want equity.

8:16

What about what the business needs? The word add

8:19

up period where a lot of things are

8:21

IAC, and I think that will come back into balance

8:23

over the next few years. How do you manage that morale

8:25

internally? IAC it is nerve wracking for a

8:27

lot of young people who've never seen this before.

8:29

You are still the fox in the room with wisdom. How

8:32

do you manage them morale and talk

8:34

to them when they are shipping themselves about

8:36

what could be the first walking

8:37

recession? We're lucky to have something

8:40

at IAC which is a

8:42

lot of people with tenure. They both

8:44

are very familiar with IAC IAC the way we

8:46

operate. They've been through a lot of different

8:48

cycles and markets and environments. So

8:50

you have a mix of people like that.

8:53

And people who have not had that experience.

8:55

Having that mix in an organization is

8:57

really helpful for striking balance and

8:59

learning IAC the people who haven't experienced

9:02

those things and then one person who

9:04

has the knowledge or did the research or

9:06

has the experience then could be, let persons

9:08

out on an island and they don't get us

9:10

and they don't get what's going on. But if you

9:12

have mix of those

9:13

things, then you've got a breath point of view is where

9:15

people can interact and have a dialogue around

9:17

it. You mentioned changes in a lot of different

9:19

things, but you mentioned changes in valuation. I'm

9:22

intrigued because you said before to me

9:24

that there's no such thing as value

9:26

investing. As reader of Benjamin Graham's

9:28

book, I was naturally intrigued. So

9:30

why is there no such thing as value what

9:33

I mean by that is people use the word

9:35

value investing to mean buying

9:37

things at low multiples or buying

9:39

things cheap or deep value or whatever.

9:41

That is a way to invest, but value

9:44

investing also can be buying

9:46

something at a very expensive multiple

9:48

or a very high expensive say a very

9:50

high multiple, but that there's value there

9:52

because of what you believe in the growth and the future.

9:54

Now, maybe sense exists because people say

9:56

I see is a value investor

9:59

and that doesn't bother me as a term, but

10:01

so is, I don't know, pick a name of

10:03

VC or a growth equity fund

10:05

that pays very high prices for

10:07

growth things. They think they're a value investor.

10:09

They are a value investor. They see value there

10:12

relative to what they believe the future value

10:14

IAC. And I call them value investor

10:16

too. And for us, we do both. So we

10:18

are a value investor, but we're not saying we have

10:20

to buy everything really cheap as an absolute

10:22

multiple. We could pay big multiples

10:24

for things where we be paying value, and

10:26

that can work out too. It's funny. remember when Sequoia

10:29

invested in Figma, it was rumored to be a

10:31

four hundred million dollar valuation, which was a hundred

10:33

times revenue, which was crazy. At the time IAC was

10:35

four million, and everyone thought it was ridiculously

10:38

high. I think they would argue that was a value investment

10:40

or a good value

10:41

investment. Fresh. Tell me there's only examples

10:43

of that. IAC Abi examples of the opposite. PI

10:45

would call that value investing. I would say they're a value

10:47

investor. Do I find a heart though? And there's

10:50

this trait saying, be greedy when

10:52

others are fearful and fearful when others are

10:54

greedy. The trouble IAC, if you want

10:56

to be greedy when others are fearful, you need

10:58

other people if you're relying on cash

11:00

to share that greed. And what I'm seeing

11:03

now is there's a lot of opportunities that

11:05

people aren't willing to fund them because they

11:07

share everyone else's

11:08

fear. How do you think about having the courage

11:10

to be greedy when others are fearful? You

11:13

hit on a very important point, which is

11:15

you need capital to be greedy when others

11:17

are fearful. That means that you need to

11:19

have been preparing for that moment

11:21

in advance. Now no one can time those

11:23

things right, but you need to have

11:25

been operating a way where you have the ability and

11:27

the capital to be greedy in those

11:29

moment. That's a very hard thing to

11:31

do, but you're right. Everybody right now

11:34

talking about, oh, there's so many opportunities. There's so

11:36

many things that I wanna buy. I just don't have enough capital

11:38

to do it. Of course, that's what's happening when capital

11:40

IAC

11:41

scarce. Things are cheap and when capital is abundant.

11:43

are expensive where the opportunities when

11:45

you've built up capital and been able to hold

11:48

onto it through those periods to be able

11:50

to take advantage of the moments to be do you feel

11:52

you and IAC built up enough cash

11:54

to be greedy when I was a fifth? I

11:56

think we certainly have plenty of

11:58

cash right now well over a billion

12:00

of cash and no debt at the parent level. And so

12:02

we are well capitalized to take

12:04

advantage. Do I wish we had more? Of course. I wish

12:06

we had more. I wish we had a lot more now, but

12:08

I'm happy that we have what we have, and I think

12:11

we'll make opportunities with

12:12

that. IAC the assets you're looking at now, are you

12:14

seeing valuations reflect the macro?

12:16

Because I think the biggest challenge for me is I'm a seat ambassador

12:18

predominantly. Fleet ambassador is completely

12:20

the same IAC not slightly higher prices than

12:23

ever

12:23

before. The book is on the igniter. The

12:25

private markets and the public markets are

12:27

generally very far apart in moments of transition.

12:30

I think public markets are reflective of

12:32

the environment right now and private

12:34

are not. And there's a bunch of reasons for the

12:37

private not being One, people raised

12:39

a lot of capital when capital was easy. And

12:41

so having that capital chasing those deals,

12:43

that still exists. Number two, you

12:45

don't need to be honest on valuation every

12:47

day. There's no one forcing want. So if you have

12:49

enough capital in a business, you

12:51

would not go and get evaluation right now.

12:54

Number three, everyone in the ecosystem is

12:56

incentivized and able to

12:59

maintain pretend valuation, meaning

13:01

the investors wanna keep their marks where

13:03

they are. Their LPs actually want them to keep

13:05

their marks where they are because they don't wanna look bad. The

13:07

companies wanna keep the marks where they are because they wanna

13:10

retain the employees. And there's nobody in

13:12

that ecosystem with who's job or

13:14

responsibility is let's

13:16

make this more accurate and more

13:19

IAC, and that only happens when you have to go access

13:21

the capital markets and then get somebody new

13:23

into that story. Like IAC companies also have

13:25

short sellers so the people who don't believe get

13:27

to vote in addition to the people who do

13:29

believe. But in the private markets, only people who

13:31

do believe get to vote. So that's gonna be astute

13:33

vote. I had Orlando Bravo on from Tomo

13:35

Bravo yesterday, actually. And he argued

13:37

that Bundy, this is the new normal.

13:39

And actually, it's relatively reasonable.

13:42

We saw the result of quantitative easing

13:44

and increased capital supplies, as you said,

13:47

from government intervention. And this is actually

13:49

not bad. It's reasonable and it's the

13:51

new

13:51

normal. Do you agree with that statement that

13:53

this feels reasonable in the new normal?

13:56

I do agree with that. IAC are where we are right

13:58

now. And now we need to grow over

13:59

here. There's no snapback. Earnings take

14:02

time to grow. Earnings don't typically at

14:04

large grow in multiples. They

14:06

grow in increments percentages.

14:08

And when that happens, markets grow and

14:10

valuations grow, but there's no catalyst

14:13

that I don't think anyone can define, which is

14:15

multiples are going to expand soon. You need

14:17

interest rates that come down, you need tax rates

14:19

that come down, and then things like multiples

14:21

can fan, but I think we are naturally where

14:23

we are and think it's fine and

14:24

appropriate. We've spoken a lot about kind of value.

14:27

In terms of digging a layer deeper to actual

14:29

value creation, I've had to do you say before

14:31

simplification is the most powerful tool

14:34

in value

14:34

creation. What did you mean by this statement?

14:37

Are a lot of our businesses have customers on

14:39

two sides, move marketplace businesses, where

14:41

there's a supply and demand side and both

14:43

of them are our customers in a sense. What your

14:45

job in the middle, even if it's not a marketplace

14:47

business, is simplification. You are simplifying

14:50

something on behalf of your customers and

14:52

they are paying you a margin in order to do that.

14:54

The more you simplify, the more margin

14:56

you're entitled to IAC that's how you create

14:58

value for your customers. But simplification

15:00

also goes to well beyond just

15:03

the to simplifying the product for your customers.

15:05

Like simpler pricing is easier for people

15:07

to sell. Simpler decks are easy

15:09

presentations are easier for people

15:11

around you to understand and appreciate.

15:14

When we have any process online

15:16

where we're trying to sell something. Anytime you

15:18

take a step out of that process, you increase conversion.

15:21

You're simplifying. And if you use that

15:23

as a tool, there IAC not a moment in

15:25

business where you can't think about

15:27

that as a improvement opportunity

15:30

and yield

15:31

value. What do you think are the biggest

15:33

mistakes that people make that you see around

15:35

you in failing to simplify? Taking

15:37

on too many projects at

15:39

once. That's a huge one. People cared about we

15:41

we go back to the prior market. All people cared

15:43

about was TAM, total addressable market. And

15:45

they said, my TAM is so big that I can

15:47

do so much in this TAM and I have to

15:49

get all of this TAM and I have to

15:51

launch all of these products to tackle the team.

15:53

That mistake was spreading yourself

15:55

to them, taking on too many competitors or

15:58

markets at

15:58

once. And we saw a lot of people do that

16:00

when they add too much capital to

16:02

overextend themselves and complexify

16:05

rather than simplify. Think one of the biggest

16:07

I see in simplification is messaging. How

16:09

often do you see especially a b to

16:11

b? But how often do you see website not

16:13

quite sure what they do. I get that

16:15

all the time. I get emails from people who

16:17

say, would you consider investing in my business

16:19

and they say a series of eight words that I

16:21

could not translate into any England.

16:24

So what does great messaging mean to you? You

16:26

have a series of phenomenal businesses within

16:28

my AC. That I think male messaging

16:30

very well. What's been your own blessings on what

16:32

makes great

16:33

messaging? My dad, when my

16:35

siblings and I were growing up forced us

16:37

to to read book and then memorize

16:39

a line or a portion of the book,

16:41

which was William Strong Junior at

16:43

EBY, the elements of style. Now

16:45

am I mess it up a little bit. But a sentence

16:48

should you have no unnecessary words and

16:50

a paragraph no unnecessary sentences

16:52

just as a drawing should have no unnecessary lines

16:55

and a machine known necessary parts. That

16:57

sums it up, but I'm gonna use that. The joy of

16:59

this show is I can just take other people's wisdom

17:01

and pass it off as my own in future. But I have the

17:03

joy of life. Welcome to IAC capital.

17:05

The problem with simplification is you have

17:07

to understand the distinction between

17:09

an opportunity that you should take.

17:11

Anna, see distraction and an unnecessary

17:14

part as you put it there. How do you think

17:16

about that distinction between a very exciting

17:18

or judicy or distraction away

17:20

from the

17:21

cool. Yeah. This is something that I

17:23

used to be very skeptical of,

17:25

and now I've I've embraced,

17:27

which is a company has should

17:30

have values. We just rolled this out at

17:32

Angie. been CEO of Angie

17:34

in addition to IAC for the past few months

17:36

Angie did have values before, but I'm not

17:38

sure they were lived every day

17:41

in making decisions. And

17:43

if you have values that are unique

17:45

to your company that you believe

17:47

IAC. It actually really does help

17:49

in understanding the difference between an

17:51

opportunity and a distraction. I have so

17:53

many people say, I wanna spark values. Everyone's

17:55

values are the

17:56

same, man. It's like trust, honesty, truth,

17:59

hard work, integrity, but what's

18:01

different. I think pushed hard when

18:03

we redid them at Angie to make

18:05

them unique. For example, if you're trying

18:07

to get a customer for one transaction,

18:10

you can make a whole series of decisions

18:12

to do that. And if you're trying to

18:14

get a customer for life, you

18:16

make different decisions in each of

18:18

those situations. And what you

18:20

really wise, values should make you uncomfortable,

18:23

not old. But there should be times where they

18:25

force uncomfortable decisions and uncomfortable

18:28

discussions. Where you have to call out colleagues,

18:30

not in a mean way, but where you have to call out colleagues

18:32

and say, wait a minute, has this been through the value filter

18:34

or not? Because to me, it seems like it hasn't been.

18:36

You're right. Things like integrity, like, that's an

18:38

obvious one. But things that build lifelong

18:40

customers, there's different ways we'd prioritize

18:43

a product road map There are different features

18:45

you'd release. There are different ways you'd communicate

18:47

and present if you're trying to do that. Whereas

18:49

what it was previously, which was customer first.

18:51

Again, in the example of Angie, it was previously

18:53

customer first. Okay. Customer first.

18:56

I get IAC. But then, what? Second

18:58

and third and fourth? And when do you

19:00

come

19:00

IAC. Though lifelong customers is a very

19:02

challenging thing to do, and it has absolutely

19:05

changed our road map and our priorities. And we're

19:07

all going for you mentioned being CEO

19:09

of Angie and

19:10

IAC. If there's one theme my investors

19:12

are worried with me about IAC, so I do too

19:14

many things between media companies and firms,

19:17

I naturally tell them that it's not a problem at

19:19

all. C0T companies, we are right

19:21

about that. I think when you tell them that IAC you're

19:23

doing things that you love that feed each IAC you

19:25

were doing something that you didn't love,

19:27

that you had to get done at

19:29

some obligation, whatever, I'd say they're

19:31

right. But what you're doing is things

19:33

that naturally feed upon each other,

19:36

and you're doing these things in your free time

19:38

IAC it is your free time. Otherwise, you'd be

19:40

playing golf or

19:41

something. I don't know. I really

19:43

appreciate, and I feel guilty turning this on you

19:45

then. But like, are your two CEOships inbuilt

19:48

as mine are? And how does that work then

19:50

for you with the

19:51

interplay? I have the time to do it. I have

19:53

colleagues at IAC who are

19:55

highly capable of helping out

19:57

in other areas, and they've stepped up

19:59

to the health. In particular, our CFO,

20:01

Barry Dillard, the chairman has stepped up in other areas

20:04

to help, and work life balance

20:06

is a challenge. It's it's definitely taken

20:08

away from personal life. But as I said, I love

20:10

doing it. I enjoy both the

20:13

Angie business and the Angie job and

20:15

the IAC business and the IAC

20:16

job. And I'm lucky that I get to do

20:18

both and I figure out how to make time for

20:20

both and I don't. I don't agree. I think my balance

20:23

is a little bit of a mess. And I agree. Nothing

20:25

is so

20:25

stream, it's one or the other, but there are people

20:28

just fundamentally to make a choice

20:30

and some choose work and some

20:32

choose life and I don't begrudge anybody

20:34

which one of those two things they choose, but that's

20:36

a choice. That's a fundamental, I think, dividing

20:38

them. We we mentioned kind of opportunities that

20:40

while should or could

20:42

take. An opportunity that many took

20:44

over the last couple of years was to Obviously,

20:47

an alternative mechanism of going public.

20:49

When you look at Spark

20:50

said, think ninety eight percent are trading

20:52

abysmally below trading price

20:54

originally. Why did they not work as a mechanism,

20:57

Joey? There's a bunch of concepts in

20:59

this IAC, there are flawed, but the most underrated

21:01

in my mind, but also the biggest

21:03

flaw was the way this back works,

21:06

and we looked at this with one of our companies

21:08

that were involved IAC. The way it works is you

21:10

build a company for as long as it takes you to build

21:12

a company, you get it to a position where

21:14

you think it can maybe endure the

21:16

public markets And then in that

21:19

critical moment, you give somebody

21:21

else who doesn't know your company at all

21:23

a free option on effectively selling

21:25

that company to the public for three months. That

21:28

is completely insane. That does not

21:30

make sense. It can make sense for other

21:32

dings, but I don't think it makes sense for any great company.

21:34

It can make sense for an idea where

21:36

you need somebody to help go fund an idea

21:38

for you. So these things actually, lot

21:40

of things that went out early, that our ideas

21:43

are a little bit more than advanced idea, but

21:45

have no business, yet haven't built a

21:47

business around it. That's just saying we need help

21:49

fundraising, go figure out how to

21:51

fund raise this for us so that we can continue

21:54

building this idea into something that may be

21:56

a

21:56

business. But if you have a business, you'd be

21:58

crazy to give somebody a

22:00

three month or multi month option selling

22:02

your story to a new investor. But I would argue

22:04

IAC you don't have a business and you have an idea we

22:06

saw many kind of early ideas, very early

22:09

products with no revenues for sure. It's bad.

22:11

You're placing all the pressures, demands, and expectations

22:13

of being a public company on a very

22:16

early product team, all structure.

22:18

That's not ready that distract us from

22:20

building product, that distract us from

22:23

messaging, from you name it.

22:25

Yes. It's a completely suboptimal structure,

22:27

and it just only relative to alternatives,

22:29

you ignore the thing that they got out of that, which

22:31

is very important, which was cap now if you say they could've

22:33

gotten capital somewhere else, then I'd say,

22:36

you're right, but in many of those cases,

22:38

actually, they couldn't get as much capital or

22:40

nearly as much capital as they got in the public markets,

22:42

and now they need to endure all those difficult

22:44

things which are a real challenge, but they got

22:46

something really important, which is the capital

22:48

to fund the

22:49

business. What do

22:49

you think are the biggest misunderstandings or

22:51

misnomus that people have will carry

22:53

towards spikes. Few appreciated the

22:56

reality that you're giving away an option

22:58

on your company for an extended period of

23:00

time, and it becomes crystal clear

23:02

and volatile. It's a one way option, which is if things

23:04

are going up, you gave away the option too cheap.

23:06

If things are going down, you get it back. And

23:08

so it's, in every case, worse for you.

23:10

But there was a good that came out of SPACs,

23:12

which is lot of these companies that did now

23:15

have to confront the public

23:16

markets, now confront more realistic

23:18

IAC. And I think that's

23:20

an opportunity for people with capital

23:23

to find real opportunity

23:24

when we look at the generation of SPACs Happens

23:27

is they get taken private at much more realistic

23:29

valuations or they grow out of IAC, but

23:31

one of the problems which I didn't appreciate

23:34

until somebody who knows this well, said it

23:36

to me. It was Henry Ellen Bogan who said it to me.

23:38

He predicted this three years ago or

23:40

whatever it was very early in this back thing.

23:42

He said the problem is going to be there's only

23:44

a handful of public

23:47

investors who invest in companies of this size.

23:49

And to be thoughtful investor, obviously, takes

23:51

time to do work analyze a company. The

23:53

volume of companies coming into this size

23:55

IAC way exceeds the capacity of people

23:57

to analyze and invest in those companies

24:00

in the public markets. So what happened is they

24:02

just have no home, which means they'll

24:04

either have to grow out of that by being big

24:06

enough to people have to pay attention to

24:08

IAC. Or, yeah, they'll probably go back private

24:10

and try and work things out there. We see

24:12

a lot of changes in markets. One thing

24:14

like to discuss is also changes just in the

24:16

US while. And over time, we

24:18

have changes to our financial profiles, and

24:21

one that's always an interesting one is one's relationship

24:23

to money I

24:24

find. How do you think about your own relationship

24:26

to money today, Joey? It's certainly evolved

24:28

over time, but somebody I knew,

24:31

well, once hit to me, money is

24:33

around, sometimes it rolls towards you, sometimes

24:35

it rolls away from you. And you gotta

24:37

remember that that's true. Never

24:39

did I have a more distorted sense

24:41

of my net worth than probably

24:44

in November of twenty twenty one.

24:46

You look at things on paper and then things

24:48

change. And I always had the knowledge

24:50

that that was possible if not like that things

24:53

go up and down. But what happens so

24:55

severely and so quickly, you appreciate

24:57

how real truism IAC. And I

24:59

do. But also, you put things in perspective.

25:01

I remember the first time I made money, IAC

25:03

I was running a business for IAC and I had a

25:05

deal where I got paid a certain amount

25:07

IAC we hit a certain a IAC

25:09

or a certain level of metrics. And when we did that,

25:12

I and my colleagues got paid very

25:14

well, and that was very exciting. And I felt

25:16

like the richest person on her and

25:19

I did a fun weekend with my

25:21

friends. And I said, this is like

25:23

top of the world. Then be glad to do more

25:25

things and you earn some more. But

25:27

then you have this crash and you say, oh, I

25:29

feel like I've been crushed and whatever. I

25:31

look back, I say doing much better now than I was

25:33

when I felt like I was the richest person on earth. If

25:35

you put those things in perspective, I think you

25:37

can get a little more relaxed about

25:39

these things. Another friend of mine said to

25:41

me, above a certain level, money just a scorecard.

25:43

He wasn't saying that he's saying that it should be a scorecard.

25:46

He's just saying that's what it is. I think one

25:48

thing is also very challenging is when you have children

25:50

and they're brought up with nice financial

25:52

surroundings but wanting to instill the same

25:54

level of hunger and ambition and driving

25:57

them. How do you think about Stebbings?

25:59

That same kind of moral compass and

26:01

disciplined drive hunger? In

26:03

children when money is less of a

26:05

daily thoughts and concern. Yeah. I think

26:07

that's a very hard thing to do

26:09

as

26:10

parents, and I'm not sure we figure out. I will tell

26:12

you that my wife is much better at that than

26:14

I am and she does a exceptional

26:16

job keeping our family and our children

26:19

around it and we're very lucky

26:21

in that sense to have that rev

26:24

or relentlessness in that area.

26:26

It's still a hard thing to do. When you

26:28

think about what builds strength of character,

26:30

whatever is adversity, and

26:32

another thing, another friend's head debate is We

26:34

know that adversity builds these things

26:37

and these important features. And

26:39

all we do as parents spend all our life making

26:41

sure our children avoid adversity and

26:43

that's a conflict that I haven't

26:45

really reconciled and probably need to do a better

26:47

job

26:48

reconciling. You mentioned Blaming looking at

26:50

that worse in twenty twenty one and on paper

26:52

feeling very rich. My biggest mistake

26:54

here in the last years was by me not selling

26:56

positions when I could have done and,

26:59

like, he made lot of money where I didn't

27:01

IAC I didn't sell them. You look back over the

27:03

last few years, what do you think back

27:05

on as your biggest mistakes in doing

27:07

or not doing in the height of

27:09

the good

27:10

time? Would it be nice to add more capital

27:12

right now, yes, to take advantage of more

27:14

opportunities for sure? It it's easy

27:16

to look back and regret not having sold

27:18

Stebbings, but people do this to themselves, and

27:20

it's very unhealthy, and I don't recommend

27:22

it. Everyone says, oh, I had the opportunity

27:25

to buy that. I certainly would have bought it at the

27:27

bottom when I was thinking about buying. And I had

27:29

the opportunity to sell that, I certainly would have

27:31

IAC I had known X y and Z, I would have sold it at the

27:33

top of I'd sold. IAC very very very rare

27:35

that you IAC the absolute bottom and the absolute top

27:37

for any of those decisions. The reality is you

27:39

would do somewhere near one of those

27:42

things and somewhere near another one of those or

27:44

if it works out exceptionally well, but you're

27:46

never gonna get those things perfect. The important

27:48

part is as it relates to investments, is it

27:50

a business that you believe in, is it a team that you believe

27:52

in? Is it a market that you believe in? And

27:54

if it is, then over time, those

27:57

things will balance out. And you

27:59

wanna hold on to the long

28:01

term

28:01

winners. And over time,

28:03

they'll continue to when you mentioned

28:05

earlier that we said about the role of money

28:07

there. You mentioned earlier family. And your

28:09

brothers and your father. How IAC your

28:12

family impacted your mindset? Impacted

28:14

how you think as a leader today? If

28:16

there have been some prominent takeaways or lessons

28:19

from

28:19

them, I loved what your father made you read

28:21

out. But if there have been some big takeaways, yeah,

28:23

I'd mention them, didn't mention my MOM

28:25

YET BUT ANOTHER HUGE INFLUENCE

28:27

ON ME. MY MOM WAS AND

28:29

REMAINS INCREDIBLY Frugal AND

28:31

DID A WONDERFUL JOB forcing

28:33

that upon me and my siblings in

28:36

ways that did drive us. When we would

28:38

go out to dinner, we would go to the food court

28:40

at the mall, and we would get one drink at the

28:42

place that had free refills and then pour it

28:44

around and then go get a refill and pour it

28:46

around to each other and, like, wherever there was a

28:48

deal to be had, we had to get the

28:50

absolute best deal. You could not possibly

28:53

pay full price for anything. When we went to

28:55

a restaurant, you can never get soft drinks at a restaurant

28:57

because the margins were too high on Stebbings. You

28:59

could never get the add ons because the add ons

29:02

would add up too IAC. And there was a section

29:04

of the menu where the prices were too high where

29:06

you couldn't look at that section, you could only look at

29:08

the other section. I'm not suggesting we had

29:10

any hardships in that sense, but that was

29:12

building these values, which is what do I have to

29:14

do to be able to look at that other section of or

29:16

what do I have to do to be able to order

29:18

a soft drink or

29:19

whatever. Those were the values

29:22

that we had growing up and that had

29:24

a real impression on can it

29:25

be really divisive? Do you agree

29:28

with Bob? IAC it not a bit aha young

29:30

kids? I haven't had the

29:32

fortitude or whatever you wanna call it to

29:34

do it myself with mine. But

29:36

I do think that is good. We would go out

29:39

to dinner with other families. All the other kids

29:41

would order a soft drink, and we love soft drink.

29:43

So like every kid does, but we didn't.

29:45

And so that created some ambition

29:47

in drive, and I think that was healthy

29:49

You said about ambition and

29:51

drive, final one for a quick fire. The biggest

29:53

commonality that everyone told me about

29:55

EJ was your unwavering persistence.

29:57

Your inability to give up, whether it's

30:00

a bunker shot or business. My

30:02

question too IAC, there is sometimes a

30:04

time to give up. How do you think about

30:06

when to give up versus when to continue

30:09

and push through the hard

30:10

times? Yeah, it's a very

30:12

important question and IAC a lot

30:14

of the things that we do. You gotta go back

30:16

to what is your thesis

30:18

and do you have a viable thesis

30:21

that you believe It can't be because

30:23

you believed in it previously. It has to be

30:25

do you believe IAC it tonight? We've told this story

30:27

a lot with business that we have called Dotdash

30:30

IAC now merged with Meredith. It's called Dotdash Meredith.

30:32

That evolved from what was originally an acquisition

30:34

called about dot com. When we bought about dot

30:36

com, we had a few since it was gonna be part of

30:38

Ask dot com, actually, and we had

30:40

a view on what we could do with it. And Neil Vogel

30:43

was running that business at plan, whatever,

30:45

went out with the plan bomb. Came back in,

30:47

he said, that plan bombed, and he said,

30:49

but I've got a new plan. And here's why I think

30:51

it's gonna work. And everything he said made sense to

30:53

us. And we said, okay, go do that. IAC.

30:56

back in, he says that one bound where I got a

30:58

plan. Now this one's gonna make a lot of sense, and

31:00

here's why it's going to work. Everything he said made

31:02

sense. And we said, okay, go do that. Like, I can't

31:04

remember if it was the third or fourth try. one

31:06

of them, I said, we're not gonna I think after the

31:08

third try, I said, we're not gonna have a fourth

31:10

try on this whenever it was worked.

31:12

And each one of those decisions independently

31:15

was the right decision, but you could also be at a point

31:17

in these businesses where you say that thing bombed and then

31:19

they come on with a plan that doesn't make

31:21

sense, that doesn't resonate, and it's just

31:23

let's keep doing the same thing that we were doing,

31:25

that wasn't working, and now it's time to get out. Or

31:27

find somebody else who could go up with a plan that makes

31:30

sense. But you can't let it be burdened by

31:32

the sunk cost of the history. You can't let it

31:34

be burdened by what your thesis was

31:36

previously. You gotta evaluate it

31:38

fresh on the

31:39

merits. And if it works on the merits, then you can

31:41

sort it for it again.

31:42

But the best CEO the best resource out

31:44

of cases. Yes. It's balancing short term

31:46

and long term. That's the hard part of the job. Anyone

31:48

can do all short term or all

31:50

long

31:51

term, but balancing capital and resources

31:53

against short long term is is

31:55

the hardest, the most important. I would love

31:57

to move into a quick fire round, Joey. So I say

31:59

a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts.

32:01

Does that sound okay? So world life

32:03

balance, we live in an entitled

32:05

generation. Do you agree? I did. What have

32:07

you changed your mind on in the last twelve months?

32:10

I was expecting and in some

32:12

way looking forward to the

32:14

market reversal that we've seen.

32:16

And now in it, It was much

32:18

more pleasant before that. Well, it's the shit that's part

32:21

of it. It's just the adjustment that

32:23

everybody needs to endure in particular

32:25

around jobs. Biggest strength, biggest weakness,

32:28

what tools? I guess I probably agree

32:30

with the folks who told you what

32:32

they told you, which is I have trouble

32:34

giving things IAC that a strength or a weakness?

32:37

Sometimes it's a

32:38

strength, sometimes it's a weakness for sure. You can

32:40

have one board member. Okay? Just one.

32:42

Who's the board member and why? would go back

32:45

to he's no longer

32:46

alive, but Jack Welch was

32:48

the had the best instincts

32:50

on things and quickest instinct on things

32:53

that understand of things incredible empathy

32:55

and could help you divine how other

32:57

people were thinking, what's the secret to

32:59

a happy marriage story? My wife's uncle has

33:02

this saying that if I say

33:04

something and my wife's not around to hear it,

33:06

am I still wrong? So I've appreciated

33:09

that. And I think it's important

33:12

to, of course, love each other, respect each

33:14

other, but also have opinions

33:16

when they're really important to have opinions

33:19

but you don't need to this is the opposite

33:21

of my work advice. You don't need to lobby opinions

33:23

when it's not necessary to have an opinion. I

33:25

love that. Would you my side to change by the world

33:28

of adventure? don't know. don't really think

33:30

or care that much about it. I guess maybe one

33:32

thing that came out of the last environment

33:34

was, I do think it was dangerous for a lot of companies

33:36

to be overstuffed with cash. And

33:38

I think that that was a danger

33:40

to more companies than it was

33:43

a help to. It's twenty twenty eight.

33:45

We do another show. Where are you? And why is

33:47

IAC

33:47

then? I can't think that far ahead I'll still

33:50

be at IAC, I think. How about that? In

33:52

planning our business, we do think multiple

33:54

years ahead. In planning my life,

33:56

I can't think that far ahead. But for sure,

33:58

in planning our business, we're on a well, we think

34:00

about businesses in a forever

34:02

timeline, and so that's the balance of short

34:04

term and long term. But we want to think about

34:06

what the market is multi years out for sure. Jerry,

34:08

thank you so much for putting up with my

34:10

questions on parenting,

34:12

cash. Financial markets. I so

34:14

appreciate and you've been a fantastic guest my

34:16

friend. Thank you, Eric. This was great.

34:19

I love doing that show with Jerry. And if you wanna see

34:21

more from us, you can find us on YouTube by searching

34:23

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As always, I so appreciate all your support, and I cannot

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wait being an incredible episode with the one and

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only David Tisch on Monday.