0:18

Christianity at its core believes

0:20

that God created the world and declared

0:22

it good , imbuing it with his presence

0:25

and divine purpose . This

0:27

foundational belief beautifully

0:30

aligns with animist perspectives

0:32

, which also recognize the spirit

0:34

or life force in all elements

0:36

of nature . Both traditions

0:39

therefore encourage a heartfelt

0:41

respect for the environment , viewing

0:43

it as a manifestation of

0:45

the divine . This

0:50

shared value underscores the common

0:53

ground between Christianity and

0:55

animism , deepening the respect

0:57

for creation . Moreover

0:59

, animism's emphasis on community

1:02

rituals and the honoring of ancestors

1:04

can enrich Christian practices

1:06

. These rituals offer a warm

1:09

communal space that reinforce the

1:11

Christian values of fellowship and

1:14

honor for one's forebears . By

1:17

integrating these practices , christians

1:20

can deepen their faith and strengthen

1:22

their community bonds , as expressed

1:24

in the biblical commandment to honor

1:27

your father and your mother

1:29

.

1:31

I started working as a public

1:33

defender and representing

1:35

folks that could not afford

1:37

a lawyer and I kept seeing them

1:39

go through this revolving door

1:41

. So it hurt

1:43

me to see that it was like

1:45

a factory . Somebody would commit a

1:47

mistake and they'd come into the system

1:50

and they would be processed and spit

1:52

out and go do whatever they

1:54

had to do and then come out and of course

1:57

there's no support and

1:59

it hurt .

2:02

Bob , tell me about your spiritual awakening

2:04

. I know there were big changes in

2:07

your life during your childhood your

2:09

parents weren't necessarily the emotive

2:11

kind and then the ancestral burden

2:14

that your family carried

2:16

down from the Bolsheviks . And do

2:18

you call them gypsies , or are they ?

2:20

travelers , travelers yeah , not

2:25

all Romas were gypsies or travelers . Some were founded , but many

2:27

of them were Not only having

2:29

parents that immigrated themselves

2:32

. Here in North Carolina

2:34

I have a lot of friends whose

2:36

families go back to the Scottish pioneers

2:39

and the like and they've been here for

2:41

300 years . Their families and I

2:43

think about my line in America

2:46

. It goes back to when my

2:48

father got here and then it takes a right turn

2:50

but then it doesn't go anywhere

2:52

. It goes back to Hungary and we

2:55

know something about that , but there's

2:57

no ancestral thing there

2:59

. So that kind of ancestral trauma

3:01

certainly follows me

3:03

, but it's nothing

3:05

like having gone through

3:07

the trail of tears or

3:09

having had your ancestors enslaved

3:12

for years and picked up out

3:14

of there the ancestral trauma that some of

3:16

our marginalized folks have today . I

3:19

can't complain .

3:21

That's true enough , but in

3:23

the moment I don't think that we ever had that choice

3:25

. No matter how it comes to us , it's involuntary

3:28

, like our reactions to it .

3:30

I was just wondering what

3:37

was the forces behind your spiritual awakening ? I worked for Janet Reno , who later became the

3:39

attorney general under the Clinton administration . I worked for her

3:41

and I was part of the Crimes and Consumer

3:43

Frauds Task Force , together

3:46

with the feds , and we wound up hitting

3:48

the mob for $72

3:51

million . Shortly after that

3:53

I left the office , hung my shingle out and

3:56

I'll call him Johnny , came

3:58

to visit me and basically

4:01

the conversation was you

4:03

got to be pretty good to hit us for that much

4:05

. Would you mind if I sent you

4:07

some clients ? That's

4:10

how it started . I got to know Johnny

4:12

and at that level in Miami , the

4:14

Cubans and the Haitians

4:16

, the Italians , colombians

4:19

and the Peruvians all

4:21

were talking together at some level

4:23

because they all assisted on the routes

4:25

. Our deal was nothing illegal

4:28

, nothing unethical . You

4:30

want a lawyer that's respected

4:32

. That's in your best interest . If

4:34

I ever get caught doing something like that

4:36

, it's going to come back and be abused . It worked out

4:38

very well . They were always good for

4:40

their word until his son got busted

4:42

and then there was no saying no

4:45

to him . But during that period of time

4:47

I was going out with them a

4:49

lot , going to a lot of those chrome and glass

4:51

bars and maybe doing a

4:53

lot of stuff that I shouldn't have been doing

4:55

, and it was impacting

4:59

my family life . Things were

5:01

spiraling downwards , so I was seeing a therapist

5:03

life . Things were

5:05

spiraling downwards so I was seeing

5:07

a therapist and one day I was arrogant and

5:13

I thought that I couldn't fail at anything and I decided I was going to try to go

5:15

into a business that was going to make me a million dollars . I was going to be the richest person

5:17

. It was great , it's wonderful . It wasn't

5:19

working out . Because I wasn't working

5:22

out , I had already paid my house off at

5:24

32 . And

5:33

I had to make a decision whether I was going to refinance my house to keep this business

5:35

venture going . So I went and I said what should I do ? He

5:38

goes behind himself . He picks up a little

5:40

bag with three Chinese coins

5:43

in it , shakes the coins

5:45

, drops them on the thing , looks at them

5:47

, makes a couple of mathematical calculations

5:50

, draws a line , picks them up , does

5:52

it again and again six times , until

5:54

he drew six lines . And I'm aghast

5:56

, I'm looking at this . I'm paying the guy 65

5:59

bucks an hour . He's throwing coins

6:01

in the most important question

6:03

of my life . Finally

6:07

, he writes down a number out of his calculations turns around , gets this

6:09

book , opens it up to that chapter

6:11

and the title of the chapter is Retreat

6:14

. I cursed him out and

6:16

I stomped out and I

6:18

thought that he was a

6:20

witch doctor or something . At least I thought he was

6:22

. So I went to the office of the business

6:25

and I went in and I said to everybody we're

6:27

closed , we're not going to make it , we're done

6:29

. And I did not refinance

6:31

my house and I did not put

6:34

myself into a position where I could

6:36

not have gotten out of With

6:38

my tail between my legs . I go back

6:40

a couple of weeks later and , george

6:42

, what was that ? And

6:45

he goes oh , that was the I

6:47

Ching . Turned out that my

6:49

epist was the English

6:52

language editor for

6:54

a 72nd generation

6:57

Taoist master from the Shaolin Temple

6:59

. Taoism itself , that Kung

7:01

Fu and Tai Chi and . Qigong

7:03

and yin-yang , balance

7:05

all of that . So I said

7:07

what's Taoism ? It interested

7:10

me because my family was atheist

7:12

and I didn't have any kind of particular

7:15

religious background , something

7:17

I'd been searching for a long

7:19

time and here was something

7:21

that gave me a pathway

7:23

to live life in a virtuous

7:25

and proper , efficient and

7:27

effective way that

7:30

didn't require me to have to believe

7:32

in anything supernatural . So I loved

7:34

it , I just took to it and

7:36

I studied under George Masterny

7:38

, came to Miami often and

7:41

he had to be the happiest man

7:43

that I'd ever run into in my life

7:45

A shaman , yes . We

7:47

would play hide and seek with him and

7:50

we could never find him . That's just how he

7:52

was . He was just the most amazing

7:55

fellow . I remember one time

7:57

we asked him the question what's

7:59

it like to be you ? What goes on

8:01

in your mind ? And his immediate

8:03

response was no rehearsing

8:06

thoughts , no thoughts . And then he just

8:08

giggled and walked away and we

8:10

started thinking about that and we realized

8:12

that this is somebody who

8:14

doesn't have any conversation going

8:17

on in their mind . They're just open and

8:19

available and when something

8:21

happens , they respond to it like

8:23

a basketball player who's in

8:26

the zone responds to

8:28

what's going on around them . There's no effort

8:30

involved , there's just responsiveness

8:33

, and that in Taoism is

8:35

known as wu wei , which

8:37

means doing , not doing . The funniest thing

8:39

is that wu the word wu is

8:41

also Chinese for shaman

8:44

, so there is something mystical

8:46

about all of Taoism .

8:48

I know the three coins and the tossing of the coins

8:50

struck me as a very shamanic

8:53

process . It's like divination .

8:55

I Ching was the practice

8:57

that changed

8:59

me . It's one thing to study under a master

9:01

, but you have to do practice , and

9:04

every morning I would get up and get

9:06

my coins . I'd get three quarters and

9:08

throw them six times and

9:10

write the appropriate lines and

9:13

divine them to go to the

9:16

appropriate chapter and read it and

9:19

over time , what the I

9:21

Ching taught me was how

9:23

to recognize the energy

9:25

that is around me and

9:28

be able to understand how

9:30

I could become effective and efficient

9:32

. Kind of . What I mean by that is certainly

9:34

we have all come into times when we

9:37

have a great and wonderful idea and

9:39

nobody wants to listen to us , right ? Yes , we've

9:43

all experienced that . The I Ching

9:45

would label that time darkening of

9:47

the light . You're too bright and

9:49

you need to darken your light a bit . It

9:52

would advise you that in a time when

9:54

nobody's listening to you , it's better not

9:56

to speak and use the time to

9:59

work internally so

10:01

that when the time changes and

10:04

people are open to your ideas

10:06

, you have it all together

10:08

so that you can make your case

10:11

clearly and authentically . The

10:13

I Ching defines

10:15

64 pie slices

10:17

of different times

10:19

. There's a time to advance , a time

10:22

to retreat , a time to wait , a time

10:24

to speak , a time of great

10:26

progress , a time of

10:28

walking in mud . There are all these

10:30

different times and as you practice the

10:32

I Ching , you become more familiar with

10:34

being able to quickly recognize the

10:37

time you're in and not work against

10:39

it , not try to row your

10:41

river , row your boat upstream

10:43

, rather navigate it carefully

10:46

downstream , and life becomes easier

10:48

, become happier .

10:49

You spoke of the recognizing the energy

10:51

that is external to you and

10:53

reading from that . Is there an equivalent

10:56

of reading the energy ?

10:56

that's inside you . Meditation

11:09

and in Taoism a lot of the ways of becoming familiar with the internal energy is through movement

11:11

, like Tai Chi , and if you've ever seen advanced Tai Chi the pushing of

11:13

hands , where two people stand

11:15

opposite each other and they feel

11:18

the force that goes between them . In

11:20

doing that , they get a physical sensation

11:23

of the yin and yang

11:25

forces and the balance between yin

11:27

and yang , and they begin to be

11:29

able to then transpose that feeling to

11:32

life . Watch your thoughts

11:34

and become detached from

11:37

them in a certain way

11:39

, so that when you become angry , you

12:15

get to be angry and express your anger at the same time . From a detached place , watch yourself

12:17

being angry and maybe even be giggling at

12:19

it , even as you're angry , and

12:22

so it makes you much more resilient

12:24

. And again it all goes back to everything

12:26

passes .

12:27

I had an experience somewhat like that . I

12:29

was a paramedic and we were near an accident

12:31

scene . We were unable to access the crew on scene

12:34

due to the multi-lane nature of this roadway

12:36

. It went on and the communications

12:38

center came back and saying why'd you do that

12:40

? They were upset with us because we were multiple

12:42

lanes we would have to cross . So we're not going

12:45

to do that . But I remember during

12:47

the conversation with the comm center I

12:49

was seething and I

12:52

thought for sure the supervisor is going

12:54

to come and visit and tell me about my

12:56

on-air manners . And

12:58

anyways , he did come by and he did bring a recording

13:01

of the whole thing . And when I was listening

13:03

to my communications with the comm center

13:05

I sounded quiet and completely

13:07

opposite to the way I was

13:09

feeling inside and I thought for

13:11

sure I was going to get busted . So I don't

13:13

know if it's the same thing , but that idea of how

13:15

we can somehow separate the two

13:18

, what we're feeling and what we're expressing it's

13:20

almost like we're two souls at once or something

13:22

. So are there other teachings that kind of help contribute

13:24

towards your transformation

13:26

that you were starting to go through ?

13:28

So when I came to North Carolina

13:30

, one of the things that transformed

13:33

about me that was different was that

13:35

I became much gentler and

13:37

much more aware the effect that

13:40

I had on folks and much

13:42

more aware of myself and

13:44

therefore able to

13:47

read others' energies . And

13:49

I was doing criminal law at the time

13:51

. I started working as a public

13:53

defender and representing

13:56

folks that could not afford

13:58

a lawyer and I kept seeing them

14:00

go through this revolving door

14:02

. So it hurt

14:04

me to see that it was like

14:06

a factory . Somebody would commit a

14:08

mistake and they'd come into the system

14:10

and they would be processed and spit

14:12

out and go do whatever they

14:14

had to do and then come out and of

14:18

course , there's no support

14:20

and it hurt

14:22

. So I closed my practice and I went back

14:24

to school and got a social work master's

14:26

degree and in that I

14:28

concentrated in my studies

14:30

on positive psychology and

14:33

science . When I came back

14:35

I went back and reopened

14:37

my law office and then

14:39

I was able to commit to

14:42

listening to my client and

14:44

I was committed to this . I could not guarantee

14:46

, of course , what would happen . It was

14:49

my job to advocate for their

14:51

best interest , but the ultimate

14:54

result is that they may go to jail or be

14:56

placed on probation or get some consequence

14:58

, and no

15:00

matter what their consequence was . It

15:03

was my commitment that when they left

15:05

my presence they will have

15:07

felt heard , listened to

15:09

, that somebody stood up for them

15:12

, and that they

15:14

understood

15:17

why what was happening to them was happening

15:19

to them . I didn't want them to

15:21

go out with a narrative

15:23

of I'm a victim , I've

15:25

been mishandled . It's unfair

15:28

. Even if it was unfair , let's

15:31

understand all the dynamics

15:33

of why was it unfair ? And

15:35

since then I've seen a lot of my

15:37

clients have done their whatever

15:40

they needed to do and have

15:42

gotten much more productive lives , and sometimes

15:44

I run into them on the street and they tell

15:46

me what a difference that made to them

15:48

. That lesson that I learned once

15:51

of how important it is for

15:53

a person to be heard has

15:55

stayed with me for a while and that's a driving

15:57

force within me .

15:59

Did you have any insight that

16:02

, what path you might've been on when you're younger

16:04

, I think it was recorded that you weren't necessarily

16:06

well-liked for different reasons

16:08

. The girls didn't care for you , so

16:11

it must have been that idea of loneliness

16:13

. I don't want to put words in your mouth , but

16:16

shame from not that

16:18

something was wrong with

16:20

you . At least that's how I would have thought about myself . I've

16:22

been there and I was just wondering what

16:24

your thoughts are on that , as you're moving

16:27

forward on this incredible life that you have

16:30

.

16:32

Yeah , I think about that a bit . When

16:34

I was young , all the girls in

16:37

starting about second grade I

16:40

was a hefty boy . In those days

16:42

the word was husky . I

16:45

remember my mother . I would go in with

16:47

my hand in her hand into

16:50

JC Penney's and in

16:52

her loud Latvian voice

16:54

she would go where's the husky department

16:57

? And so all the girls called me cooties

17:00

and they ran away whenever I came near . There

17:02

are two things I think that saved me . One

17:04

is that I had

17:07

a friend . I

17:09

had Charlie Greenfield . He was my

17:12

friend and he stood

17:14

by me and didn't matter

17:17

what everybody else felt . All the other boys

17:19

, they wanted to be popular with the girls

17:21

, so they went along with it

17:23

, but not Charlie Greenfield . And there was

17:25

this one person there who loved

17:28

me . And later

17:30

on in life , when I finally

17:33

realized how important he was to

17:35

me we were both in college , separated

17:37

by about 500 miles I

17:40

called him in the middle of the night to tell him that

17:42

, and after he heard me go

17:44

on and on with it , he said can I go back to bed

17:46

now ? But

17:49

then he wrote me a letter and

17:51

he wrote me a short story about how

17:53

I was in an ice cream parlor and

17:55

how the cooties . A cootie

17:58

had come in the plastic game cootie

18:00

and , as I was , we

18:02

were fixated on each other

18:04

and slowly it began

18:06

to smoke and melt into a puddle

18:09

and disappear and the cootie was gone

18:11

and he was quite a friend

18:13

. And I had a friend who kept

18:15

telling me I should be a lawyer . And

18:18

he wasn't

18:21

working and he went out and got a job

18:23

and he earned $356

18:25

, which was the entrance fee for the law school

18:27

aptitude test , and

18:30

he bought a money order in that amount

18:32

and he gave it to me . He

18:34

said you should be a lawyer , you should go

18:36

take this test . So I couldn't

18:38

say no , right . So I

18:40

did surprisingly well and I got

18:42

admitted to a law

18:45

school that took a chance on me and

18:47

I graduated eventually

18:50

and John stayed with me all through

18:52

that and two days

18:54

after I was sworn in he died

18:56

.

18:57

Oh , my Did he have any sense that he

18:59

was unwell .

19:00

No , he had been a heroin addict

19:03

and all through the time that I was

19:05

in law school and

19:08

he was going to community college and I was going , I was in law school and

19:10

he was going to community college and I was going to be Perry Mason and he was going

19:12

to be my Paul Drake . But he stayed with me , he was clean

19:14

and then somehow he met a girl and he decided

19:16

to use and his tolerance wasn't there

19:19

anymore and he overdosed

19:21

. But I have always felt that

19:23

John was here . For that

19:25

very particular reason . It's given my life

19:27

purpose and meaning . And

19:30

there's just one other thing

19:32

Even though my folks were

19:34

atheists because all of their ancestors

19:37

had been wiped out by either the Bolsheviks

19:39

or the Nazis , my father

19:41

made me go to children's

19:44

Bible school , children's

19:46

Sunday school , to a service . We

19:49

never studied anything but I had to

19:51

go to because he said we are the Madicans

19:53

and you must know the

19:55

Bible stories . If you're going to

19:57

be an American you must know the Bible stories

20:00

. So he took me all

20:02

the time and I would go into Sunday school

20:04

class . All of the stuff like Noah's Ark

20:07

and all that stuff was kind of Disney

20:09

to me . But there was one consistent

20:11

message that I kept hearing

20:14

in all those Sunday schools

20:16

, and that was that there was some

20:18

guy and he

20:20

was undefined I wasn't quite exactly sure

20:22

what or who

20:25

he was and

20:27

he was out in the universe , somewhere . He wasn't

20:30

on the earth , but that he loved

20:32

me . I accepted

20:34

the fact that there was this

20:37

guy somewhere , who I

20:39

did not understand , that loved me Between

20:42

Charlie Greenfield and John , and

20:44

this divine

20:48

being that loved me

20:50

. It gave me , I

20:52

think , the strength to challenge

20:54

the challenges .

20:56

Yeah , and you're referring to Jesus .

20:58

Yes .

20:59

I see you became a meditation

21:01

teacher and did you

21:03

carry that into your law practice

21:05

?

21:05

Yes , certainly I

21:07

did not . Meditation

21:10

teaching so much as

21:13

my practice

21:15

. When you're in trial , you have to be

21:17

very aware of a

21:19

lot of stuff that's going on in the courtroom

21:21

. If you want to be a good lawyer

21:23

you have to get a sense of what's going

21:26

on over there in the jury box , what's

21:29

going on in the witness box , what's

21:32

going on with the judge . And

21:34

having that kind of specific

21:38

focus was helped by my

21:40

practice a lot , being able to remember

21:42

what somebody said so that if they're saying

21:44

something different now In trial work

21:46

. It helped a lot . But even in the

21:50

practice of talking

21:52

to the clients in the office in

21:55

the interviews , trust that

21:58

was built came

22:00

quickly . When you are

22:02

representing indigent

22:04

folks and they're not paying

22:06

you , they immediately have a sense

22:09

that you're not really

22:11

on their side because they're not

22:13

paying you . And a lot of times they'll

22:15

say , hey , if I gave you

22:17

$30 or $50 or $100

22:20

, would you be able to be a better lawyer

22:22

for me ? You have to be able

22:24

to get through that initial distrust and

22:27

build a relationship . And again that

22:29

goes back to listening

22:31

and being authentic and

22:33

being truthful and being able to give

22:36

bad news in a way

22:38

that can be digested

22:41

, so all of that comes

22:43

with meditation practice

22:45

.

22:45

Was it hard to tie

22:47

in Buddhism and Christianity ?

22:50

My Christianity was very Jesus-focused

22:53

. I never spend

22:55

a lot of time except

22:57

for the stories deeply into the

23:00

Old Testament , but don't see

23:02

that there's a hair's breadth

23:04

of difference between

23:07

the teachings of Jesus and

23:09

the teachings of Lao Tzu . It

23:11

might seem heretical . Honestly

23:14

and authentically , I

23:16

really think that there are some indications

23:19

, and there's some great books called the Lost

23:21

Years of Jesus Christ that

23:23

make a strong case that

23:25

Jesus traveled in India and

23:28

up to Tibet and believe

23:30

that because when he

23:32

came back he taught

23:34

Buddhism . That's what he

23:36

taught . All of his teachings

23:38

are Buddhist teachings

23:41

. I'm not saying that

23:43

he wasn't divinely inspired . That's above

23:45

my pay grade , I don't know but

23:48

it certainly is synchronistic

23:51

.

23:54

Is there room within the legal

23:56

profession or in the courts to speak

23:58

from the heart ? Is that something lawyers

24:01

learn ?

24:03

The best criminal defense attorneys

24:05

are heartfelt

24:07

. You

24:09

wouldn't think so . It seems

24:12

like it's counterintuitive , but it's not

24:14

. They really

24:16

passionately

24:18

. That's why they relate to a jury so

24:21

well . They are able

24:23

to represent their clients because they

24:25

are truly heartfelt and passionate

24:27

about what they do . There is

24:29

room for it . There

24:32

are those who think that it's all

24:34

about fighting and advocacy

24:36

and the like , but it's really about finding

24:38

a common ground .

24:39

So it's not something that's formally taught

24:41

in your meditation or mindfulness

24:44

. Just to one big question can

24:47

you tell me a little bit more about the

24:49

book that you have ? What's

24:52

it cover ?

24:53

I grew up as an atheist , then a Taoist

24:55

, then a Buddhist and a lover of Jesus , and

24:57

so that's where I am , but with no real Bible

24:59

training . And I get

25:02

to North Carolina , wind

25:05

up divorcing my first wife

25:07

and opening a little sub

25:09

shop here by the university , and

25:12

fall in love with this woman

25:14

, connie , who worked

25:16

side by side with me to open that restaurant

25:19

and then ran my law office and now

25:21

runs my life and

25:24

we got married and

25:27

she is a Bible literalist . She

25:29

believes in Adam and Eve

25:31

and the Garden of Eden

25:33

and Noah's Ark . That these are

25:35

historical facts . And

25:38

so you would say how does it come to be that

25:40

I would find such a woman attractive

25:42

? But in Buddhism we

25:44

have a word a bodhisattva . She

25:46

is a bodhisattva . A bodhisattva is a saint . She

25:49

is a bodhisattva . A

25:52

bodhisattva is a saint . In

25:58

Buddhism , a bodhisattva is someone that chooses to cross over

26:00

into nirvana so that they can stay in the trouble

26:02

, to help others get there . If

26:05

you think what a giving nature

26:07

that would be , that is who she is , okay

26:10

.

26:10

I was wondering where the word came from . Yeah , and that that is who she is .

26:12

Okay , the word came from , and

26:14

that's really who she is . She's just

26:16

a wonderful giving , loving , very

26:19

detailed , and I need that because

26:21

I'm a big picture person

26:24

. But it was impossible for us

26:26

to talk about our cosmologies

26:29

, our belief systems . She

26:31

would feel that I was imposing and

26:33

telling her things

26:35

like the world is only 4,000 years

26:38

old and I quickly learned

26:40

not to say how do you account for dinosaurs

26:43

? She goes , bob , this

26:45

works for me , it's what I grew up with . It's

26:47

what I grew up with . I'm very happy with the way I

26:49

live my life , and so that was

26:51

it . But

27:03

Taoism and seminal main book of Taoism is called the Tao Te Ching , which means the classical

27:05

book of the way of virtue . Tao means the way , and

27:08

I would read it and

27:10

as a devotional , I always have , I

27:12

always do , it's part of my practice , and

27:15

I would say there's nothing

27:17

different about this than what she

27:19

believes . She believes in

27:21

humility . Jesus washed

27:23

the feet of his disciples

27:25

. This is what

27:28

is taught , and I

27:30

started looking at some of the couplets

27:32

in the Tao Te Ching and saying how

27:35

could I put this in Christian terms

27:37

? How could I say the same thing

27:39

in a biblical reference

27:42

? Google

27:46

, because you can ask it . What does the Bible

27:49

have to say about humility ? And

27:51

it'll give you 20 , 30

27:59

sites and I would read through them until I found one that was right on point and I'd grab

28:01

it . And then it was just a matter of adjusting the rhythm and the rhyme

28:03

so that it took the same

28:06

feel as the Tao Te Ching

28:08

without using the same

28:10

words , and I'd

28:12

finish one of the chapters and

28:15

then I'd say can I read this to you ? And I'd read

28:17

it . She goes where did you get that

28:20

from ? And I said I got

28:22

it from this other day . Let me see

28:24

. So she'd read it . She says how did you get that

28:26

from this ? I said it took

28:28

a little work . And

28:31

she goes wow , that's really good , I like that . And so that was

28:33

my motivation . I did another

28:35

chapter . Finally , I did all 81

28:37

chapters and she

28:40

was always waiting . She said read me another

28:42

one , read me another one . And at one

28:44

point she finally said to me she said , bob

28:46

, I've been going to church all my

28:49

life and no

28:51

preacher has ever explained

28:54

Jesus to me this well , and

28:57

now I understand Jesus like I never

28:59

have before . And I said , wow

29:01

, if that has an effect like

29:03

you maybe it says a

29:05

lot , maybe I can get it published

29:08

, and so Kendall Hunt picked

29:10

it up and traditionally published it

29:12

, and I'm just so excited about it

29:14

.

29:15

It intrigues me , to tell you the truth , and

29:17

I wasn't brought up , despite

29:19

my parents' efforts of the church . But

29:23

I'm always open to just

29:25

other ways of looking at similar

29:27

things , and so I'll take

29:29

a look at that .

29:32

Would you like me to read a passage , A

29:34

short one just so we have a taste . They're

29:37

all short . They're all short . They're all a half a page

29:39

. They're all short . Okay , between 1 and 81

29:41

. Just to be , let's be random .

29:45

You're 77 , right 77

29:48

?

29:48

Yeah , no , I'm 74 .

29:50

Oh , let's go for 74 .

29:52

Okay , so every

29:54

oh . That's a short one . That's good

29:56

Every one of them . I

29:58

gave a title to the chapter and

30:00

I found a quote from some

30:02

famous quote that I liked . The

30:04

title of this chapter is Life and Death

30:06

, and

30:08

the quote came from Norman Cousins

30:11

. It says death is

30:13

not the greatest loss in life . The

30:16

greatest loss is what dies

30:18

inside us while we live . It's

30:20

a good one . I like this one . Good choice , I

30:22

like them all . But here you go . It

30:25

reads this way Thou shalt not

30:27

kill . Is that not

30:29

clear ? Shalt

30:33

not kill , is that not clear ? Perhaps there is a

30:36

need for further definition . Love

30:43

your enemies . Do not resist an evil person . Do not repay anyone evil for evil Beloved

30:45

, never avenge yourselves , but leave room for the wrath of

30:47

God . The Lord went even further . For the wrath of God . The Lord went

30:49

even further . He

30:51

counseled not only against

30:53

destroying the body , but

31:02

also not to kill another's hope , spirit or faith . People lived their lives fearing death

31:04

. Would it not be better to live life , loving life ? In

31:07

God's creation there's a time

31:10

to live and a time to die . Thus

31:12

God appointed nature as

31:15

the official executioner

31:17

. To have the arrogance

31:19

to substitute oneself

31:21

for nature is like a child

31:24

seeking to cut wood with

31:26

the tools of a master carpenter

31:28

. All that will be left is

31:31

ruined wood and wounded

31:33

hands .

31:36

I love it .

31:38

I love that and you can hear

31:40

the biblical references in there ?

31:42

Yes , I can .

31:43

And get it . And it tracks the chapter

31:46

74 of the Tao Te Ching pretty closely

31:48

.

31:49

So is this available on Amazon ? It is

31:52

. So is this available on Amazon ? It is , it is . I'll

31:54

put that in the show notes and

31:56

the links and all that kind of stuff for that

31:58

. So thank you so

32:00

much for this . I

32:03

really enjoyed our talk and when I get the other material

32:05

done then I'll give you a shout

32:08

and I'll send you the episode .

32:10

That's wonderful .

32:11

Yeah .

32:12

I really enjoyed being here . Thank you so

32:14

much for having me on .