0:00

Hey, it's Justin. I just want to

0:02

say thanks for making it all the way to episode seven.

0:05

And one last time, I'd also like to remind

0:07

you that The Wedding Scammer is a seven-part story

0:10

that isn't complete until you get to the end.

0:13

And with every ending, there comes a new

0:15

beginning. To that end, if

0:17

you have a scammer story that

0:20

you think needs to be investigated,

0:22

you can send us an email

0:24

at scamsattheringer.com. Again, that's

0:27

scamsattheringer.com. This

0:30

episode is brought to you by Amazon. I

0:32

love the holidays. I'll never forget when I was a

0:34

kid, my dad, his brothers and sisters, they'd all get

0:36

together, they'd open gifts, and they would just make fun

0:38

of each other and crack jokes, and it was the

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enough to crack some of those jokes. The

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day happened, and suddenly I was there

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drink Starry Lemon Lime Soda on

1:14

those cheat days for me and soda. Usually

1:16

when you get older, sometimes you're just like,

1:18

I'm drinking water, that's it. But I

1:20

love soda. I can't do that. So when I

1:22

have a soda, it's meaningful. It's a moment. I'm

1:24

just like, oh, big Celtics halftime. I'm going

1:27

to take a break. I'm going to get myself a

1:29

Starry Lemon Lime Soda. It's going to

1:32

be great. I'm going to

1:34

have a nice fizzy. I like to put ice

1:36

cubes and make it nice and cold. Starry

1:39

hits different. I'm telling you, find it

1:41

in stores or online today. Before

1:44

we start, I wanted to give

1:46

a heads up that this episode includes

1:48

mentions of physical abuse against children, substance

1:50

misuse, and suicidal ideation. If

1:53

you or someone you know is experiencing child

1:55

abuse, call or text 800-422-4455. Those

2:01

seeking treatment for addiction can call 800-662-HELP. And

2:06

if you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal

2:08

thoughts, you can call 988. Previously

2:14

on The Wedding Scammer. Lance,

2:17

this is going to get really

2:20

uncomfortable. Is your name

2:22

Carl? I'm not going to talk to you

2:24

about that. Have you gone by Michael

2:27

Esposito, Mark White, Lawrence Tanner?

2:31

What is it that I can do to assist you today?

2:33

You know what, I've heard your story from a lot of

2:35

people. I would like to hear your story from you. You

2:38

want to prank me or to break me? Let me

2:40

prank me. Nobody gets anything. It's fine. I

2:43

don't care. Hello. How you

2:45

doing? Good. Good.

2:47

Good. Good. Good.

2:50

Good. Good. Good.

2:54

Good. Good. Good.

2:57

Thank you. How are you today, Justin?

2:59

I'm doing okay. I'm doing okay. It's

3:02

January 31, 2023 and I

3:04

suddenly find myself in an

3:06

unexpected situation. Talking

3:08

again to my scammer, Carl

3:11

Bucho. It's been only two

3:13

days since I confronted him while wearing a wire. I'm

3:16

still in Texas. And so far, Carl

3:18

is keeping one of his promises. He's

3:21

taking my phone calls. And

3:23

the first thing I want to know is how he's feeling after

3:25

the events of the other night. Like

3:27

I said, I said I feel freer.

3:30

Now, does this mean you plan on

3:32

continuing to use Lance Miller or are

3:34

you going to go by Carl Bucho?

3:36

Any of the other names? I

3:40

haven't made a decision on any of that. But,

3:43

you know, once the cat is out of the bag, there's

3:45

no point in trying to even put it back in the

3:47

bag. A little later

3:49

in that call, we talk about Nuzarati again.

3:52

He tells me he understands why people are still angry.

3:55

Because the thing is, people never forget how you

3:57

make them feel. And it's...

4:00

clear that the poor choices and

4:02

the mistakes that were made at

4:04

Nuzarati have never ever

4:07

really been fully paid. And

4:10

he says he wants to pay everyone

4:12

from Nuzarati back seven years later. I

4:15

would like to set up a system here

4:17

so we can get the Nuzarati as

4:20

many as there are to

4:23

get something up and running so we

4:25

can get them paid. But

4:27

the rest of this conversation becomes

4:30

difficult to navigate. I

4:32

ask him about lawsuits, labor judgments.

4:34

He pleases ignorance, telling me nobody

4:36

ever notified him. I

4:39

point out he was hard to track down. What,

4:41

with all the changing names and locations? He

4:44

rejects the premise. I feel

4:46

exasperated. Rinse and repeat. Same

4:49

goes for when I try to understand why

4:51

Karl has kept reinventing himself. I

4:54

tell him it makes sense to me that he wanted

4:56

to distance himself from the mistakes he made when he

4:58

was younger by becoming Michael S. Bazzito. But

5:01

if nothing criminal happened in Los Angeles,

5:04

which is what your contention is, why

5:06

did you have to become Mark White? Why did

5:09

you have to become Lance Miller? That's

5:11

something I'm not going to answer. That is

5:13

a question that you would need to talk

5:15

to Lawrence Connor about. But I'm

5:17

asking about Mark White and Lance Miller. That

5:20

I had no intention of changing anything

5:23

about me over there. So

5:25

that's a Lawrence Connor situation. So

5:28

the conversation goes in circles. And the

5:30

longer it goes, the more contentious it

5:32

gets. That's especially

5:34

true when we get to Amy Savelle, the

5:37

floral designer from Houston who used to work

5:39

weddings with Karl, until she learned the

5:41

truth. She threw into her face that

5:43

10% of her annual revenue

5:45

last year came from us.

5:50

But but but. Her annual revenue came

5:52

from one company? But Karl. Please

5:55

stop calling me that. What

5:58

would you like to be called? Justin, so

6:00

stop it. What would you like to be called?

6:02

Anyway, this conversation, Justin has come to us. And

6:07

yes, this conversation has ended.

6:09

But trust me, there are plenty more to

6:11

come. In

6:18

our final episode, we're going to hear a lot

6:20

from Carl Buchill. We're going to

6:22

hear his story and his words. His

6:24

explanation is for a lot of what's been said about him.

6:27

And we're going to see which promises he's actually

6:29

willing to keep. I'm

6:35

Spotify and the Ring podcast network.

6:37

I'm Justin Saylor. This is

6:39

The Wedding Scam. Chapter

6:47

7. Fool Me Twice. Can

6:51

I just say, every twist and turn

6:54

in this story feels more bizarre than the last.

6:56

From the way I stumbled into this back-end news

6:59

arati right up through my trip to Texas to

7:01

the many tweets and DMs I've gotten theorizing

7:03

that this guy is actually George Santos. Which

7:07

part of me wishes was the case, but

7:09

alas, that's not how this ends. But

7:12

here's something else that surprised me. After

7:15

I found Carl Buchill and confronted him, he

7:17

kept talking to me. He

7:20

kept texting me, answering my phone

7:22

calls and consenting to have them recorded. That's

7:25

for me reasons for all of the lawsuits and

7:27

labor complaints and the many people who say they

7:29

were wronged by him. But when

7:31

I press him on specifics during our first phone

7:34

call on January 31st, Carl is dismissive.

7:38

I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry.

7:41

A lot of the people that you have, the names

7:44

that you've given to me, are

7:46

people who didn't accept

7:49

accountability for their part of it either. saying

8:00

that if he's actually done something wrong, these

8:02

people should do something about it. Which

8:05

completely ignores the fact that many of them

8:07

have, and that they can't find him because

8:09

he's living in another state under yet

8:11

another alias. But maybe

8:13

this is the least surprising thing that's happened so

8:16

far. That when I

8:18

finally found Carl, he started deflecting, pointing

8:20

fingers, that when it came to the

8:22

case of Lawrence Toner, denying that he

8:24

ever used that name, despite

8:26

all the evidence that he did, including

8:28

the wedding invitations bearing the names

8:30

Lawrence Toner and Barrett Walters, as

8:33

in Carl's husband. And

8:36

that seems undeniable to me. This

8:41

first call with Carl takes place while I'm still in

8:43

Texas. I have it while I sit in

8:45

Amy Savelle's shop in Houston. Before I

8:48

fly back to Los Angeles, we send a recording

8:50

of this call, plus the tape with Carl from

8:52

my wire a few nights earlier, to Josh and

8:54

Janae. I want to get their reaction. After

8:57

they listen, the four of us get on a call. I

9:00

kept finding myself like I would look over

9:02

at Justin and I'm like, that was him.

9:04

Like every time I'm like, I was like,

9:06

he is Lawrence Toner. Who does you for

9:08

calling him out on that wedding invitation? Because

9:11

that was the most like, ha ha, you

9:13

fucker I've ever gotten. And it made me

9:15

feel something. That

9:17

moment, when Amy reminded Carl and Barrett

9:19

about the wedding invitation, that's become

9:21

a hit among this group. But other

9:24

things we discuss are more perplexing. Like

9:26

how when I confronted him, Carl told me

9:28

that he had quote, no business

9:30

with Josh and Janae. But then

9:33

during our phone call, Carl admitted he

9:35

was involved in the catering company they

9:37

ran together, which if you've

9:39

listened to episode three, you know ends with

9:41

him owing Josh and Janae a lot of

9:43

money. Excepting Carl's telling of

9:45

the story, Janae was the pushy business

9:48

owner, not him. He

9:50

also told me that Janae quote, ended

9:52

up better off in the situation, end

9:54

quote, than everyone else involved. He's

9:57

certainly alone in that opinion. prepare

10:00

myself to have my story told by that

10:02

man. It's just like, we're listening

10:04

to it going, holy shit, this is

10:06

the opposite story. Anybody that

10:09

has read any paperwork about

10:11

any of this, like, who wouldn't believe this

10:13

story just because like, there's nothing that's his

10:15

fault. Everything was, everything

10:17

is somebody else's

10:19

problem, except for they're

10:22

all suing him because like, realistically,

10:25

like that may be his truth, but

10:27

none of that is true. And he

10:30

has a really warped sense of reality

10:32

when it comes to that. Usually

10:35

in a show like this, you'd save responses from

10:37

the victims for the end of the episode. But

10:40

I'm sharing these now because what Josh is

10:42

talking about here, the unreality of it all,

10:45

is tied to the central question of the story for me.

10:48

What exactly does Carl Buchow think

10:50

he's doing? I

10:55

mean, does Carl think he's living a typical

10:57

life? Does he think it's

10:59

normal to screw over like this every few years? That

11:01

is not strange to have so many people saying that

11:03

he's scammed them. And even if he

11:06

does believe it, does it matter when so many

11:08

people have trusted him, even come to love him,

11:10

only to learn the truth about him after it's too late?

11:13

It's something that resonates with Janae. She

11:16

got close with Carl. How she let him in, and

11:19

how years later, the same things happened to

11:21

Amy. What's really interesting,

11:23

and I wanna tell you this, is

11:26

your guys' relationships about how you

11:28

were best friends and you did

11:30

everything together and you genuinely loved

11:32

them, and that was me. Yeah.

11:36

That's how, that's the relationship we, I

11:38

have with them, and look at how they talk

11:40

about me now. Yeah.

11:44

So just be careful, because

11:47

I know exactly what you're going through. No,

11:50

no, it's okay. It's funny when

11:52

you said that, like literally right

11:54

now, I'm having a really hard time controlling

11:57

my emotions. Because

12:00

it's like super fresh.

12:03

Yeah, we screwed the

12:05

same thing for months.

12:08

This is one of the many moments over the

12:10

past seven years when I've been reminded that Carl

12:12

not only took money from people, he

12:14

took a piece of them too. After

12:19

this, I fly home to Los Angeles.

12:22

Time to listen to all the tape I've got. Do

12:24

some follow up interviews. See which parts

12:26

of Carl's story check out and which ones don't.

12:29

I also want to keep talking to Carl. Before

12:32

he hung up on our last call, he told me

12:34

we could keep an open line of communication. And

12:37

I have a lot more questions to ask. Plus,

12:40

I still had some more reporting to do. Like

12:42

I hadn't visited his dad in Pennsylvania yet when

12:44

I went to Houston. But

12:47

while Carl keeps this open line of

12:49

communication, he does get a bit squirrely.

12:51

He reschedules calls at the last minute. He

12:54

promises to send me all sorts of documents, like

12:56

they're a rosetta stone that will clear everything up.

12:59

But nothing arrives. He blames

13:01

a lot of this on his busy schedule or on

13:04

him and Barrett moving from Houston to Austin. Or

13:06

sometimes it's because of health problems. Like

13:09

he says in our first call after I get back

13:11

to LA on February 7th. Here's

13:13

the thing. I don't want you

13:15

to think that I'm not trying to talk to you. I

13:18

was really, really, really sick today. I'm allergic

13:20

to morphine. I had a biopsy the other

13:23

day and they gave me some morphine

13:25

to like numb it. And

13:27

I didn't realize that that's what they were giving me and

13:29

I got a little sick and I was like down for

13:31

a day and a half. So, you

13:33

know, like I want to answer a question. This

13:36

is call number two with Carl. And

13:38

it's very quick because he apparently scheduled it

13:40

for the same time as a gig he's

13:42

working. But he does give me one

13:44

update. I did spend a lot

13:47

of time yesterday going through Google Drive

13:49

and files and stuff pulling stuff for you. Just

13:51

because, you know, it's like, you know, some of the things like, you

13:54

know, San Graf had arbitration

13:56

clauses, you know, now that

13:59

you've informed me. that there were all

14:01

of these lawsuits kind of went through. I'm

14:03

gonna be petitioning the court to say, well, we were never served and

14:05

sure as to copy this, but we'd like to reopen the case. So

14:10

summarize, now that I've made him aware of

14:12

the lawsuits against him in California, he plans

14:14

to file to have them reopened to prove

14:16

he's not a fault. Now

14:19

I'm thinking, this all happened years ago under

14:21

a fake name. It's not something

14:23

I really thought he'd do. And

14:25

it turns out to the best of my knowledge,

14:27

he didn't. As of

14:29

November, 2023, none of the

14:32

plaintiffs I've spoken to have received any notice of

14:34

a reopened case. And according to the LA courts

14:36

website, none of the cases have been reopened. With

14:40

that other part of what he says, that he's

14:43

gonna send me a bunch of things from the Google drive,

14:45

he doubles down on that promise. Says

14:48

he'll send me documents the next day, then we

14:50

could talk on Thursday, February 9th. But

14:53

those documents never come. That's

14:58

Thursday, Carl and I have our third phone call. And the first thing I ask

15:00

him about is those documents. No,

15:02

I didn't have time yesterday. I

15:05

didn't get it until a little bit late. And

15:07

then, you know, yesterday I told you I

15:09

have to go to that wake. And then, you know, we're still in the process of

15:13

finishing up our move. So it's been a little

15:15

hectic. This

15:17

script is starting to feel very

15:20

familiar. Delay, delay, delay. Delay,

15:24

delay. Given

15:27

that I don't have anything to review, I decided

15:29

to take a different approach in this conversation. Giving

15:32

Carl room to tell his story in

15:34

his own words. And I

15:37

think it works. Because the

15:39

vibe seems to be different on this call. Don't

15:42

go right down. Go, shoot, sorry.

15:45

A dog will just not stay off of me. Is

15:48

it Kingston? Yeah. I remember

15:50

Kingston. Carl

15:52

talks a lot on this call. It

15:54

goes on for nearly two and a half hours. Parts

15:57

of the call are pretty lighthearted. He

15:59

talks about how we... decided to become a chef. But

16:16

we also talk about more personal things. Like

16:19

how when he was a teenager, one

16:21

of Carl's mentors introduced him to a group

16:23

of people who would kind of become role

16:25

model for him. This is

16:27

a group of six-year-olds, what I now know as

16:29

gay men. And

16:31

my mentor and we left

16:33

and I ate and you

16:35

know, it was like a day

16:37

episode of the Golden World. So

16:40

these three men who, you know, of course

16:42

back in those days people weren't as open

16:44

and you know, accepting as they are now,

16:47

they were all quote unquote roommates living

16:49

in this, you know, house up there.

16:52

Carl also talks about how the death of that

16:55

mentor, which happened about 20 years ago, changed

16:57

the direction of his life. So

16:59

when he died, this was the

17:02

beginning of the end for

17:05

my more pristine way

17:08

of doing things, right? So when he died and

17:10

it was in 2003, because I

17:12

was just about finished school. I

17:15

was home, it was summertime and

17:18

I stayed with my grandmother. One

17:21

of my family members came to me and was like,

17:23

have you seen the newspaper today? And I'm

17:25

like, now why? It was

17:27

his mentor's obituary. When

17:29

I read that, I absolutely did not want to

17:31

deal with it. Did not, still

17:33

to this day, cannot deal with those types of

17:36

things. This timeline, starting

17:38

in the early 2000s, it

17:40

matches some of the things that his father told me. That

17:43

Carl Jr. started having problems just around the

17:45

time he was supposed to finish culinary school,

17:47

which is when his dad started getting phone calls

17:49

about his son's activities. So

17:52

I asked Carl Jr. what he means by the end of

17:54

his quote, more pristine way of

17:56

doing things. So

17:59

I started... And the end

18:03

is a highly addictive thing. And then

18:05

I was also, I had

18:08

those clonipin wafers that were

18:10

like the immediate dissolves that you put under the thing

18:12

if you felt like a panic attack kicking in. So

18:15

I had those, and then it was

18:18

just one thing after another after another

18:20

after another. And then I had my

18:22

bariatric surgery to lose weight. And

18:24

then that's when, well,

18:27

back in those days, but I

18:29

don't even know what they gave me. I think it was

18:32

Roxasette, if I remember correctly.

18:35

That was great. I

18:37

tried to kill myself on that because

18:40

it was like, what I was

18:42

doing was I would like take as much as I

18:44

would be able to take, or it was just like

18:46

knock me out. And it's like,

18:48

I don't even care if I wake up. It

18:50

was like, take more and more and more until you

18:52

pass out. So then one day you're gonna pass out

18:54

and never wake back up again. There's

18:58

really, really horrible

19:00

state of mind. The

19:03

mid 2000s was I lost years, years. The

19:11

mid 2000s would have been loosely around

19:13

when he was arrested and convicted a

19:15

few times in New York, including

19:17

the 2008 case for 360 grand in credit card fraud. I

19:22

pressed gently to see if he'll discuss these

19:24

things. So what was your

19:26

behavior like around that time? Nonfunctional.

19:31

The level of depression

19:33

was extremely severe. I

19:36

had gone into psychiatric center for

19:38

depression. They'd

19:42

found out that I was actively trying

19:44

to hurt myself with prescription medication.

19:47

My great aunt is the one that was

19:50

like, this is just getting out of control.

19:53

And then I'd

19:55

say a good solid three to four years.

19:59

Not really. really functioning properly

20:03

in any way, shape, or form. You know, you go to

20:05

work and stuff like that and do what

20:07

I was supposed to, but essentially mostly

20:09

a recluse. He

20:11

doesn't reference any scams. None

20:13

of the arrests, none of the things he's

20:16

described as mistakes he made when he was younger. Though

20:18

he does volunteer a few things about his

20:21

upbringing, mental and physical abuse he

20:23

says he suffered inside of his house. And

20:26

just a warning, this may be one of the more

20:28

difficult moments of the podcast to hear. I

20:31

used to be terrified

20:33

of Fridays. Terrified.

20:36

Because when I went to school,

20:38

you know, they did what we called staple papers,

20:40

right? They take all your homework and graded tests

20:42

and papers and everything every week, stapled them to

20:44

take them home. You know,

20:46

family signs them and sends them back in, you know,

20:49

on Monday. It was

20:51

like every week it was something.

20:54

And what I came to learn whenever I was a adult,

20:56

it didn't matter whether I made an A or B or

20:59

C or D. If I

21:01

had a great week and made all As

21:03

and Ds, there would be something else. It

21:06

would be something else. You're fat. You're

21:08

disgusting. Look at you. I'm embarrassed

21:11

of you. Like just insanity. Insanity. Just

21:15

insanity. Insanity. Carl

21:19

also describes a quote, daily dose

21:21

of beatings that he received from

21:23

his dad. And here

21:25

I have to note that I spoke with Carl Sr. about

21:28

that a few months after this call. And

21:30

Carl Sr. said that his son would get

21:32

quote, the belt, end quote. But

21:35

that Carl Sr. didn't think it was excessive or

21:37

anything out of the ordinary. The

21:39

only thing that I even got remotely

21:42

positive from him was work ethic.

21:44

That's it. Workaholic. But

21:48

anything else, I wish

21:52

that he didn't exist. So

21:55

like, first of

21:57

all, that. I'm

22:01

sorry you had to deal with that as

22:03

a child. I'm not the only

22:05

one. I know, but no child. Tens of millions

22:07

of people to do. And

22:10

it's like I don't

22:12

even require or need any sympathy.

22:15

It's like, we're all responsible for

22:17

our own lives. We

22:20

make our decisions, we make our choices and

22:22

everything. I'm gonna sit here and say, oh,

22:26

every single thing is because of

22:29

that. A lot of it is, but

22:31

not everything. Carl

22:36

is being vulnerable. I

22:38

think back to all the times at New Zorrotti. When

22:41

he told difficult stories about his childhood and

22:43

how people thought he was doing that to the point. This

22:46

call doesn't feel that way. And

22:49

given the tenor of this conversation, I

22:51

don't wanna push things too far. He

22:53

promised we can talk again. So I'm expecting

22:56

there'll be plenty more conversations to be had

22:58

about scams and aliases and who's old

23:00

one. But before we hang up,

23:03

I do ask him one follow-up question that I

23:05

think is connected to everything he's been talking about.

23:08

Why he told so many people a fake backstory.

23:11

Why he invented the rich dad, the trust mom,

23:14

those shopping trips to the Gucci store. When

23:18

you say things

23:20

that don't exactly

23:22

align with your biography, is

23:24

this more for you

23:27

or is it for you to convince people of

23:29

something? What's

23:33

the right word? I think it's

23:35

more of a coping mechanism. He

23:39

tells me these things were difficult for him to process.

23:41

Other people could easily have

23:43

opened their eyes and seen the signs of what

23:45

was going on. All I just cared about was

23:47

that somebody paid me attention. And I do get

23:50

it. That if Carl grew up feeling invisible, the

23:52

elaborate backstories and the lies could

23:54

have just been ways to make sure someone noticed

23:57

him. And

24:01

I also stand by what I said to him in

24:03

this conversation and what I said to him at Charleston

24:05

Lane a few weeks back. No

24:07

kid should ever have to endure the kinds of things he's

24:10

describing. No person should

24:12

ever feel so low like they don't want to

24:14

wake up. I

24:16

have a lot of sympathy for him as he's recalling these

24:18

things. But to quote Carl

24:20

directly, we make our decisions,

24:22

we make our choices, and

24:25

ultimately we are responsible for how we

24:27

treat other people. So

24:30

yeah, I really feel for the guy,

24:32

but I also really feel for all the people he's

24:34

affected and there are a lot of

24:37

them. Young

24:40

Carl didn't have much of a chance to change things,

24:42

but adult Carl does. This

24:52

episode is brought to you by Amazon. I

24:55

love the holidays. I'll never forget when I was a

24:57

kid, my dad, his brothers and sisters, they'd all get

24:59

together, they'd open gifts, and they would just make fun

25:01

of each other and crack jokes, and it was the

25:03

best. And I was like, someday I'm gonna be funny

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enough to crack some of those jokes. And

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guess what? The day happened and

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gifts at Amazon today. This episode is

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brought to you by Amazon. Whatever

25:29

you're into, it's on Prime.

25:32

Like equipment for your podcast. I was just on

25:34

Prime the other day looking around. I was like, you

25:36

know what? I need another one

25:38

of those chargers that charges my Zoom because

25:41

the other way I'm afraid. I'm going to

25:43

go on my past orders. Oh my God, I'm in

25:45

2021. Oh, there's the order.

25:48

All right, I'm going to reorder that. And then

25:50

I went backwards. I've had Amazon

25:52

Prime. I know this is impossible because we haven't

25:56

had the internet for that long. I've had Amazon Prime

25:58

since 1977. Yeah,

26:00

it's true. Any hobby, interest, or

26:03

fascination is welcome. The possibilities are

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endless because whatever it is, it's

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it since 1977.

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Visit amazon.com/Prime today to get

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more out of whatever you're into. Tap the

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banner or visit this episode's page to learn

26:19

more. In

26:22

March 2023, seven years after

26:24

it shut down, newzerotty.com finally

26:26

goes live again. But

26:31

instead of blog posts or advertisements or

26:33

anything resembling the original vision, there's something

26:35

else on it. A

26:37

message to the former employees of this

26:39

ill-fated media venture. The

26:41

note is unsigned, but it sure reads

26:44

like it was written by Carl Buccio,

26:46

by the man who once went by

26:48

Michael Esposito. It says, quote, I

26:50

truly apologize for any difficulties this has brought

26:53

to you. I wish I was

26:55

in a better place with my mental health and addictions when

26:57

I knew you all in 2016. There

27:00

are no excuses here today, and in an effort

27:02

of true recovery, I want to make

27:04

this as right as I can. End quote. The

27:08

note's followed by a form for people to

27:10

submit their names, Newzerotty titles, and how much

27:12

they were owed. Plus a promise that Carl

27:15

and his, quote, trusted associates would review everything,

27:17

and that he'd begin getting payments out at

27:19

the end of the month. It

27:22

also says the goal is to have all the money

27:24

out within six to eight months. I

27:32

speak to Carl next on March 11th. It's

27:34

our fourth recorded phone call, and one of

27:36

the main topics, his pledge to

27:38

repay Newzerotty employees. I

27:41

know that the day that I had texted you about

27:43

the Newzerotty thing, I was a

27:45

little bit loopy that day. I

27:47

was able to go and get

27:49

newzerotty.com back. Oh,

27:53

I've been to the website, yeah. Yes, because I've

27:55

already been pulling off a little bit of profit

27:58

and reserve. so I can

28:00

pay a good

28:02

chunk of stuff out. And I've

28:05

been trying to figure out a way to best do

28:07

that. He's

28:10

putting money aside to make good on his old debts.

28:13

He tells me later over text that he plans to

28:15

post it in the old Newsarati Facebook groups. Ironically,

28:18

the same Facebook groups that were once

28:20

dedicated to tracking him, that

28:22

jump-started my reporting on him. Basically,

28:25

he was willing to kick a hornet's nest that

28:27

had laid dormant for years. Except,

28:32

Carl never does that. He

28:34

doesn't post on Facebook. He never sends it

28:36

out to the old employee email list. I

28:39

guess he just expected people to

28:41

randomly visit newsarati.com seven years later

28:43

and stumble across the note. But

28:47

even though he never shares it, I certainly

28:49

do. Facebook, old email

28:51

threads, group texts. I

28:53

send it to old colleagues at Newsarati. I

28:56

even send it to people who never worked at Newsarati, like

28:59

the wedding couples who sued him and employees

29:01

with labor judgments against him. All

29:03

people who haven't had access to Carl in a

29:05

long time. I figure they deserve

29:07

a shot at getting what they're owed too. I

29:11

get a mix of reactions. Some

29:13

people submit right away. Others are

29:15

just amused that the name Newsarati is back

29:17

in their lives. But

29:20

still others, they're skeptical about giving

29:22

Carl their info. One

29:24

text I get in that vein, quote, I

29:26

have no interest in anything but seeing him

29:28

in cuffs. I'm hesitant to

29:31

remind this dude I exist, end

29:33

quote. Like that last person,

29:35

I also don't submit my info for what he owes

29:37

me. 3,500 bucks

29:39

is a lot of money, but it's never what this

29:42

podcast was about. Though if

29:44

I can get a few of my old coworkers

29:46

from Newsarati paid, that's a good result. And

29:49

that doesn't seem like a pipe dream because

29:51

as of this recording, Carl's paid Amy Safell

29:53

back a lot of what he owes her.

29:57

What used to be a more than $26,000 debt months

30:08

later, as Carl is running up against his

30:10

self-imposed deadline to make good, I check

30:12

in with somebody you may remember from episode one

30:15

to see how it played out for him. The

30:18

guy who hired me at New Zorati,

30:20

Mack Gerlach, the 6'5 teddy bear

30:22

in the cabbie hat. I

30:24

was very skeptical of getting anything

30:26

out of filling it out even though I

30:28

did, just because like

30:31

$8,500 is a lot of money to me. Matt

30:34

was the general manager at New Zorati. He

30:37

worked there for almost two months and helped build the

30:39

place. Yet, as we sit here at

30:41

the end of 2023, he hasn't

30:43

seen a dime or heard a word from

30:45

Carl Bucio. No response

30:47

whatsoever. The same thing happens to

30:49

the other people I've spoken to. They submitted

30:52

everything Carl asked for and heard

30:54

nothing back. I had

30:56

been cautiously optimistic something would happen. But

30:59

fool me once, shame on you. Fool

31:02

me twice, eh, you know how the saying

31:04

goes. It's

31:09

been about two years since Matt and I sat down

31:12

for our first recorded interview for this show. A

31:14

lot has changed since, for both of us. So

31:17

I want to know whether time has changed his

31:19

perspective on the New Zorati experience. Matt

31:23

tells me he still has regrets. When

31:25

I was in the moment then, I mean

31:28

I failed myself because I had

31:31

the inclination to just drop it and go somewhere

31:34

else because I was

31:37

like maybe this is a scam or you

31:39

know like whatever but I would always justify

31:41

it and maybe he's

31:43

just incompetent. Matt

31:45

says the experience doesn't define him but it

31:47

has stuck with him. The

31:50

biggest hit to the emotional state

31:52

or my psyche would be

31:54

like my confidence in

31:56

moving forward in the world.

32:00

I don't trust

32:02

anything anyone says anymore. And

32:04

then whenever I get any

32:07

step further in my career

32:09

or anything like that, I'm

32:11

questioning every step, like who's

32:14

on the level and who's not, instead of just

32:16

like going about my day and being productive, like

32:18

a normal person. I've spoken

32:21

to others who have shared similar thoughts, that

32:23

their time in Carl's orbit left them less

32:26

trusted, more cynical. That

32:28

lack of trust also pops up when we talk

32:30

about one of the central mysteries of this podcast.

32:33

What did Carl want out of Nuzarati?

32:40

Again, it's not like he asked us

32:42

for money, just lots and lots of

32:44

unpaid work. But the fact

32:46

he did it under a fake name, telling a

32:48

fake backstory, the fact that he

32:51

didn't pay us or even has rented

32:53

the WeWork, to me, Nuzarati was clearly

32:55

a scam. Just a

32:57

confusing one. Honestly,

32:59

I think he thought he could

33:01

build a startup and then sell it before he

33:03

got found out to be a fraud. I

33:06

don't think he could have possibly pulled that off,

33:09

but I think he thought that he could pull it

33:11

off. People have other theories

33:13

too. Maybe he wanted to

33:16

generate ad revenue and get away without paying

33:18

anyone. Maybe he just wanted our

33:20

social security numbers and they're sitting on his

33:22

Google Drive next to all the documents he

33:24

hasn't sent me. All

33:26

I can say is, when I've asked Carl

33:28

about his intentions with Nuzarati, he

33:30

denies all of this. He keeps

33:32

going back to his original pitch, that

33:35

he wanted to create a voice for the voiceless, be

33:38

an independent, unbiased news source. He

33:41

says, quote, why does it have

33:43

to be so divided? Why can't you

33:45

just report a story? And

33:47

can I just say, it's almost scarier

33:49

to me if he actually believed Nuzarati

33:52

was a legitimate operation. That

33:54

would mean that one man with a fake

33:56

name, a person with no media experience who

33:58

had already been convicted of... felony grand

34:00

larceny, he believed he could

34:02

create a news empire with no capital

34:04

and no real plan. It

34:07

would mean that one man's delusion greatly

34:09

impacted dozens of people's lives, made

34:12

them go weeks or months without getting

34:14

paid, had them leave stable jobs for

34:16

a promise of a great salary that

34:18

never existed. So

34:21

what if Matt was right about one thing in his

34:23

original assessment of Carl Bugeau? That

34:25

he was just incompetent? This

34:28

is what gets me, and gets Matt, the

34:30

most. I think he

34:32

has a distorted view of the real world

34:34

and the reality. Like

34:36

even in his day to day life, I think his perception

34:39

of reality is off. Like

34:42

he's hurt so many people. And

34:44

it's so much worse than physical pain. It's

34:48

like Carl said to me last winter, people

34:50

never forget how you make them feel. But

34:53

why would you promise to pay all these people

34:55

back and then not keep that promise? Why

34:58

would you go out of your way to start the cycle

35:00

all over again? Here's

35:06

something else I've been thinking about. Does

35:08

Carl Bugeau know anyone who can vouch for him?

35:11

And Carl for one says yes, he does.

35:14

His business partners. Let

35:17

me explain. I've been asking him a

35:19

lot of questions about his businesses in Texas. Like

35:22

why, yet again, I can't find a

35:24

liquor license for his companies. Or

35:26

why he advertises that his 3 year old catering business

35:28

was founded in 1996 when Carl would have

35:32

been 14 years old. Now

35:35

he insists these things are non-issues and that

35:37

he has the paperwork to prove it. But

35:40

he never shares that paperwork with me. Though

35:42

ahead of our final recorded call on March

35:45

11th, the same call I just told you

35:47

about where we talked about Nuzarati, Carl

35:49

makes me a promise. He's gonna

35:51

introduce me to his business partners. Who

35:54

I've never heard of and neither have Amy or

35:56

Lee or anyone else I've spoken to. But

35:59

he swears that. as they can clear everything up. Of

36:02

course, there's a catch. He

36:04

won't tell me any of their names. I

36:06

ask repeatedly because I need to know who

36:09

I'm talking to to prep, but

36:11

Carl refuses. And then

36:13

when March 11th rolls around, I call

36:15

Carl and it's just him on the

36:17

line. No business partners. Honestly,

36:20

no surprise there. Here's

36:23

Carl's explanation. He blames me

36:25

for kicking up dirt. You've

36:28

been, you know, working on getting invoices and

36:30

stuff for liquor sales and stuff like that.

36:33

I just like, you know, it's caused a lot

36:36

of tension on our end over here. And,

36:39

you know, I've had to have lots

36:41

of conversations with people about like why

36:43

and this amount and everything else and it's just

36:45

that, you know, it hasn't

36:47

been the easiest of conversations. But

36:50

that still doesn't explain why the business partners aren't

36:52

on this call. So I keep asking.

36:55

They are afraid that the family's name and

36:57

their business interests are

37:00

going to get tarnished because,

37:02

you know, they own like hospitals

37:04

and those emergency, freestanding emergency rooms

37:07

and everything else, but they're constantly

37:10

going around and soliciting money, you

37:12

know, fundraising and everything to open up those

37:14

real estate projects that they're involved in.

37:17

And they don't, they're, I mean, and this

37:19

is very understandable. They

37:22

don't want to go and have anything to

37:24

ruin their business relationships that they have

37:26

with a zillion other people that they

37:28

do business with. Look, these

37:31

business partners may very well exist and

37:34

I can understand why, if they do, they

37:36

wouldn't want to talk to me. But

37:39

I can't help but think this is just another story

37:41

that Carl is telling. Another attempt

37:43

to delay and deflect until either I give up

37:45

or he can figure things out. From

37:48

there, our conversations trail off. We

37:51

exchange a few more texts, but we don't talk on the

37:53

phone again that spring. I never

37:55

received the documents he promised or an explanation

37:58

for a number of things. why

38:00

he had his employees sign contracts with him

38:02

under his alias, Lance Miller. There's

38:05

also the matter of something called the

38:07

quote, Lance Miller and Family Trust, which

38:10

he told everyone in Houston about, and which

38:12

appears on those contracts. And for

38:14

what it's worth, I'm pretty sure it doesn't

38:16

even exist. I can't find any

38:19

record of it, and it also doesn't appear on

38:21

any of his business filings. And

38:23

also, that's not his name. It's

38:26

frustrating. I spent hours

38:28

on the phone with this guy, listening to

38:31

him talk in circles and make excuses. The

38:34

whole time, I had a feeling that he

38:36

wasn't going to follow through. But I

38:38

went along with it, because on the off

38:40

chance these documents existed and that he was willing to

38:42

share them, I needed to give him the chance.

38:45

I decided to give him some space, some

38:48

time to see if he'll pay the Nuzarati people. I

38:51

don't try him again until June. And

38:53

when I do? At the

38:55

tone, please record your message. Straight

38:57

to voicemail. Same thing when I

39:00

try him again in August. But

39:02

as we approach the launch of this podcast in the

39:04

fall, it becomes time to set up a

39:06

final interview. To give him a

39:08

chance to comment on everything that had come up in

39:10

my new reporting, like when I spoke to his dad

39:12

this September. I need to run

39:14

through some notes from my lawyers. Try

39:16

to get whatever resolution Carl could offer.

39:20

So I text Carl's iPhone to set up that

39:22

interview. And when I

39:24

hit send, my texts go green.

39:28

Next day, same thing. Either

39:30

he's changed his number or he's blocked me.

39:33

So I try to email him, telling him his urgent and

39:36

that this show is about to come out. I

39:38

do the same with Barrett. I also need

39:40

to talk with him, give him a chance to

39:42

tell his side of the story. Not

39:44

because I think Barrett himself is a scammer, or

39:47

that anyone has suggested that directly. But

39:50

because out of fairness, I need to ask

39:52

him things like why he went by Brandon

39:54

Walker in Houston. What exactly he

39:56

knows about Carl's schemes. Or who

39:59

made the way for him? wedding invitations. But

40:02

Barrett also didn't respond to my text or

40:04

emails. So in

40:06

early October, I call Carl's wedding

40:09

venue, Charleston Lane. I

40:11

try leaving a message saying I was looking for

40:13

Lance because I still have to play that name

40:15

game with some people. And a

40:17

short while later, an employee calls me back.

40:20

Were you looking to talk to him in person or...

40:22

No, phone calls fine. ...to call him personally? Phone calls

40:24

fine. I think I got you.

40:26

You've been out there for the past couple of months now. But

40:29

I'll be sure to send him an email. He's been out sick

40:31

for the past couple of months? Yes,

40:34

sir. I'm sorry.

40:36

What's going on? I don't

40:38

know who you have to tell me.

40:41

I just have personal health issues. He's

40:44

been out for a few months for personal

40:46

health issues, according to this employee. But

40:49

we eventually set up a call for

40:51

Wednesday. And then Wednesday becomes Sunday and

40:53

Sunday becomes Monday. I

40:56

begin to wonder whether this conversation will ever

40:58

happen. But that Monday,

41:00

October 16th, I dial Carl's

41:02

number. And, to my

41:04

surprise, he actually answers.

41:08

The call is brief. I can't

41:10

play it for you because for the first time

41:12

in all our conversations, Carl tells me that I

41:14

can't record him. And truthfully,

41:16

even though I assume he's in Texas and

41:18

Texas is a one-party consent state, I don't

41:21

know for sure. But

41:23

here's how the call goes. Carl

41:27

says that he still plans to pay

41:29

back Nuzarati employees in, quote, a

41:31

respectable timeframe. When

41:33

I tell Carl that some of his former

41:35

employees from Nuzarati were scared to submit their

41:37

info because they didn't want to remind him

41:39

they exist, he says that's a ridiculous statement.

41:42

He's never hurt anyone. Physically.

41:46

He also tells me his lawyers are

41:48

conducting their, quote, own investigations. He

41:51

didn't specify what exactly those investigations are

41:53

about. But that's mostly

41:55

it. He gets upset about 10

41:57

minutes in, and I try to clarify some of the

41:59

details. details that his dad told me. Questions

42:02

about a school administrator from the Culinary Institute

42:04

and some people in South Carolina who his

42:06

dad says Karl Kant when he was about

42:08

19. Things

42:10

that I've never been able to directly confirm but

42:12

are seemingly referenced in notes attached to a 2005

42:15

court file. When

42:17

I start asking specifics, he hangs up on

42:20

me. I went in with a list of

42:22

about 100 questions. I only get

42:24

through about 15. And

42:26

after he hangs up on me, I shoot him two

42:28

texts. The first goes blue. The

42:31

second goes green. Confirmed.

42:34

Karl just blocked me again. A

42:37

few minutes later, he unblocks me briefly to

42:39

send one text telling me I could email

42:41

my questions, which, of course, I

42:43

do. But as of a

42:45

few days before this episode drops, I've

42:47

yet to receive a response. So

42:52

what I'm left with is a pile of questions that I

42:54

don't feel like I'll ever have complete answers to. Fortunately,

42:57

I do have some more responses

42:59

from Karl, from our conversations earlier in

43:02

the year. And while they don't

43:04

paint a complete picture, they do shed

43:06

light on his perspectives at the time. Perspectives

43:09

I'd like to share with you now. Let's

43:11

start back toward the beginning, episode

43:13

two. Remember the wedding that

43:16

ZenCraft didn't show up to? The

43:18

one where Joey, the wedding photographer, saved the day?

43:21

Karl said he decided it should not work that wedding

43:23

because of his personal beliefs. He

43:25

told me that the bride and groom had switched venues

43:28

to a church that didn't allow gay marriage. As

43:30

a gay small business owner, he couldn't

43:32

abide. Here's how he put it.

43:35

Therefore, I am not coming on to a church that

43:38

allows that. I don't know whether

43:40

you're gonna be looking for sympathy for me for something like

43:42

that, but I said that's

43:44

definitely not going to intrigue me to really

43:46

go out of my way to accommodate

43:48

that change. And I

43:51

am deeply sympathetic to that, assuming that he's

43:53

telling the truth. But

43:55

his response doesn't jibe with what I've been told or

43:57

read about that wedding, from someone who worked it and

43:59

dealt with it. him directly. They

44:01

say that he canceled, not because of

44:03

his personal beliefs, but because it was

44:05

inconvenient for him. They say

44:08

he left the bride and groom's friends scrambling to

44:10

put together a wedding in just a few hours,

44:12

nearly sabotaging their big day. Karl's

44:15

explanation also doesn't account for the fact he

44:18

backed out at the last possible minute, not

44:20

weeks or even days beforehand, which is what I

44:22

like to think I would have done if I

44:25

had a moral conflict. It

44:27

also doesn't account for him getting sued for this

44:29

wedding and then not showing up in court to

44:31

defend himself or a judge

44:33

reviewing the details of the case and issuing a

44:35

default judgment against him. I

44:38

asked Karl about another ruined wedding from his zen

44:40

craft days, about Ellen and Mark, the

44:43

couple with the missing videographer, the melting

44:45

cake, the father-daughter dance that never

44:47

happened. Absolutely, remember lots

44:49

about that wedding. Except Karl's

44:51

memory is a little different. He

44:54

told me he's unaware of the lawsuit, but

44:57

he basically blames the couple and the wedding guests

44:59

for mostly everything that went wrong that day. He

45:02

remembers Ellen letting the wedding fall off schedule

45:04

and told me a story about wedding guests stealing alcohol

45:06

from the bar. But

45:09

again, like two sides to every story

45:11

with them. And they came

45:13

in, they were really nice people, you

45:15

know, during the planning process, various

45:17

meetings and so on and so forth. I

45:21

don't remember the husband as

45:23

much. I do remember her. They

45:25

were nice people and actually kind of surprised. Of

45:28

course, there are two sides to every

45:30

story, but it's not a

45:32

simple he said, she said situation. Ellen

45:35

and Mark have shown me pictures and receipts. They've

45:37

supplied the courts a sworn statement under oath.

45:41

Karl meanwhile, didn't do anything.

45:44

All I had was his word. Let's

45:47

move to episode three, Josh and

45:49

Janaye. Remember how Janaye got

45:52

messages from a German email server that

45:54

appeared to be written by someone impersonating

45:56

an accountant. Karl said that

45:58

he's clueless. Does this

46:00

sound familiar? Web post in Germany? Web

46:03

post in Germany. GMX is the name of the web post.

46:06

And you are... That, I can tell

46:08

you that was certainly not me. Again,

46:11

I've reviewed those emails. Somebody

46:14

sent them. Somebody who knew

46:16

the intimate details of Carl's debt to Janae.

46:19

I'm not sure who could have sent the emails besides

46:21

him, but that's his story. When

46:24

I asked Carl more about everything that happened with

46:26

Josh and Janae, he tells me he doesn't owe

46:28

them money. He also says that he told

46:31

Janae that the $125,000 lease was a bad idea. This

46:35

flies in the face of everything I've been told,

46:38

and everything that Josh and Janae have shown me.

46:40

A copy of the lease that he says he didn't want, which

46:43

he signed using the name Lawrence Tanner. Text

46:46

messages where he acknowledges he owes Josh 40

46:48

grand. The bad

46:50

checks he actually wrote to Josh. And

46:53

I don't know about you, but I don't

46:55

go around writing people checks when I don't owe them any

46:57

money. On

46:59

the subject of cook shop, the San Francisco

47:01

restaurant that he and the real Lawrence Tanner

47:03

ran together, Carl says that he's

47:05

actually paid out some people. He

47:08

says he even took the gifts that he received from his

47:10

and Barrett's wedding and paid out a few employees. I

47:13

haven't spoken to everyone he said he paid, but

47:15

you have heard from one. There was

47:17

a bartender, that lady named

47:19

Rhonda, you know, I like

47:21

as money came in from those things, like,

47:24

you know, the wedding gifts and stuff that we have received, I

47:27

paid them out of wedding chums. But

47:30

you heard from Rhonda back in episode three. And

47:33

Rhonda told me that Carl made only one attempt at paying

47:35

her. When a dozen or

47:38

so former employees showed up at the restaurant after it

47:40

shut down, and Carl wrote

47:42

them each checks one by one. They

47:45

immediately took those checks to the bank. But

47:48

Rhonda tells me, every single

47:50

check bounced, including hers. Three

47:53

other former employees have confirmed this story. It's

47:56

also worth noting again, that at least 17 cook

47:58

shop members, employees filed

48:00

labor complaints. And all

48:02

of those complaints have resulted in default

48:05

judgments totaling nearly $150,000. That

48:09

was an entirely manufactured

48:12

and super manipulated

48:14

situation that I

48:17

absolutely regret ever even

48:19

knowing that man. That

48:22

man, the one who manipulated

48:24

Carl in this situation? He

48:26

is, of course, Lawrence Tonner, a

48:29

person who allowed Carl to borrow his real

48:31

name and use his real bank accounts, a

48:34

person whose name appears on the

48:36

wedding invitation alongside Carl's husbands. So

48:39

it's a little exasperating getting the runaround from

48:41

Carl when I've seen and heard so much

48:43

evidence that Carl was going by the name

48:46

Lawrence Tonner. That

48:48

situation is pretty

48:52

much solely in the hands of Lawrence

48:55

Tonner. At every

48:57

turn, when it comes to San

48:59

Francisco, Carl blames Lawrence. And

49:02

I am an idiot for sure. I'm sorry. And

49:05

I should have listened to his uncle's advice

49:07

that just walk away when

49:09

I still lived in New York because

49:12

he would never get better. And

49:14

having had, you know,

49:16

situations in my life when

49:19

people kind of, you know, feel that

49:21

way, I sided with him,

49:23

you know, Lawrence and

49:26

saying, no, people need a chance. Again,

49:29

I have recordings of Carl where

49:32

he responded to the name Lawrence. I

49:34

have a Photoshop driver's license, the wedding

49:36

invitation, the half dozen bad checks he

49:38

wrote to Josh Santamieri, all bearing

49:41

the name Lawrence Tonner. A

49:43

small mountain of evidence that would indicate to me

49:45

that when he's blaming Lawrence Tonner for things, he's

49:48

essentially blaming himself. But

49:50

remember, Lawrence Tonner is a real

49:53

person. We read a statement from him

49:55

in episode three. And I did

49:57

reach out to the real Lawrence a second time while I was

49:59

finishing this part. He declined

50:01

to be interviewed again, but he texted

50:03

another statement. I'll read a portion of

50:05

it now. Thank

50:08

you for the opportunity in wanting to include

50:10

my side, but my energy is better spent

50:13

on moving forward and growing. To

50:15

continue with this for me would only keep me

50:17

in his world of toxicity and lies and I

50:19

am just not willing to do that anymore. Again,

50:22

I know my truth and while

50:24

I did make mistakes, my biggest

50:26

one was allowing him to take advantage of

50:28

me because of my own insecurities. He

50:31

is welcome to say whatever he likes, I couldn't care

50:33

less about him or what he has to say. My

50:36

future is about me and it has

50:39

been a journey to become secure enough in

50:41

my own self to put things and quote

50:43

unquote people like him aside. Lawrence

50:49

would later text me, quote, it

50:51

took me losing everything I had and just

50:53

about everyone I love to see that I

50:56

needed to get away from this and him.

51:00

Let's move on to the last stop in the series. Carl's

51:02

current home, Texas. On

51:05

to Amy, the person who

51:07

alongside Leah found me and told

51:09

me where Carl was. Carl

51:12

says he was already planning to pay Amy back before

51:14

I came to town. Also, he

51:17

thinks she benefited from knowing him. I

51:20

simply do not understand. You

51:22

know, I simply don't understand this woman. I

51:25

don't. And, you know, she

51:27

doesn't remember all of the amazing

51:29

things that my husband and I have done for

51:32

her. Going over on

51:34

a Sunday to help her move into her new warehouse,

51:36

going out to dinners with her and her

51:39

husband, you know, what Carl's

51:41

not accounting for is that Amy does remember

51:43

those things. It's just that

51:45

all those memories are tainted by the fact

51:47

that our close friends, Lance and Brandon, ended

51:49

up being Carl and Barrett. And

51:53

that's basically it for what Carl told me. I

51:55

got some answers, but I didn't get a chance

51:57

to ask him to respond to my recent reporting.

52:00

or specific documents and recordings. It's

52:03

like I found where the rabbit hole ends, but

52:05

it's with blocked phone numbers and unanswered emails.

52:09

Though now I do know where the rabbit is, and

52:11

maybe where he plans to stay, Texas.

52:14

He told me as much way back in January,

52:17

during our first phone call, just

52:19

a few days after I confronted him at Charleston Lane.

52:22

You asked me the other night, you know, there's

52:24

more solid roots here in Texas, this is where

52:26

we've lived the longest, right? And

52:28

that was, you know, partly intentional. He

52:31

says he's here to stay, and I

52:34

should note that I haven't been able

52:36

to find any lawsuits or labor complaints against him

52:38

in Texas. This situation

52:40

is at least a little different. So

52:43

when we, you know, brought Charleston Lane online,

52:45

like that is anchored, and

52:47

you know, making a decision to say, okay, you

52:49

know, if anything ever comes up, this is an anchor point

52:52

for us. When I hear

52:54

this, I hear a guy who's tired of

52:56

running, who's sick of having to

52:58

answer questions about his past, sick of

53:00

things blowing up and having to start all over

53:02

again. I hear someone

53:04

who truly wants to be anchored in Texas. But

53:07

now that the people around him have learned who he

53:09

really is, will they still want him to be anchored

53:12

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Depot, how doers get

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more. We've reached

53:57

the final few minutes of the show. The

53:59

epilogue. if you will. And

54:01

this actually isn't the first one I wrote.

54:04

I originally had an entirely different version.

54:07

It went like this. If Carl

54:09

Bucho isn't going to admit who he really

54:11

is, then the best we can hope for

54:13

is that he lives an otherwise honest life

54:15

under the name Lance Miller. But

54:18

then Carl went and surprised me one last time.

54:21

On October 17th, 2023, the same day the

54:25

first episode of this show dropped, I

54:27

wake up to a text from Leah. She

54:29

has sent me a link to the website of Carl's

54:31

wedding venue, where, of course, everyone

54:34

knows him as Lance Miller. The

54:37

link is to a statement. It's

54:39

titled, quote, a candid letter

54:41

to our current and future clients. I'm

54:43

going to read a few parts of it now. Here's

54:46

how it starts. My

54:51

name is Carl Bucho, though

54:53

many of you know me as Lance Miller,

54:55

the passionate face behind Charleston Lane and Caviar

54:57

and Banana. Today, I

54:59

write to you with transparency, honesty,

55:02

and a hope for understanding. Before

55:05

we journey further into our story, I need to

55:07

address a part of my past that is soon

55:09

to be the subject of public discussion. After

55:13

learning about this earlier today, there are things

55:15

being said that are true and some that

55:17

aren't. I'm also being asked

55:19

to recall people and situations from as

55:21

far back as 2002. As

55:24

many of you know, with my current health

55:26

challenges and the many procedures I am currently

55:28

under and facing, recrawling events from the past

55:30

year have been challenging. However,

55:32

I want to take this opportunity

55:35

to take ownership of my past to shine

55:37

a light on this situation. Years

55:40

ago, in a times of

55:42

personal recklessness, poor decisions, trusting and affiliating

55:44

with the wrong people, I made

55:47

mistakes that led me to serve time in jail,

55:49

caused major setbacks for individuals, and

55:52

inadvertently caused pain to those around me.

55:55

I was slow to pay back debts, was

55:57

not truthful, and unfortunately others

56:00

along the way. I deeply

56:02

regret the hurt and inconvenience I caused.

56:09

The letter goes on for another few hundred words.

56:12

He promises that his past is behind him and

56:14

that he's dedicated to this business. He

56:17

says that Charleston Lane recently hosted his

56:19

150th wedding, something he's proud of. He

56:22

ends the letter by saying, quote, everyone

56:24

makes mistakes and everyone deserves a

56:26

chance to grow, change and rebuild.

56:29

End quote. He signs it

56:31

Lance Miller, parentheses, Carl

56:34

Buccio. I

56:37

believe this letter is a result of the reporting

56:39

that went into this podcast. It's

56:41

something that so many people I spoke to wanted.

56:43

A sign that Carl will

56:45

stop living in the shadows. It's

56:47

one step toward accountability and

56:50

acknowledgement that he lied to people, that

56:52

he hurt them. But still, it's

56:55

just one step. Because

56:57

while this open letter includes the name Carl

56:59

Buccio, it doesn't mention his

57:01

other aliases. Michael Esposito,

57:04

Mark White, Lawrence Tanner. The

57:06

letter points out that he's being asked to recall incidents from

57:08

2002, more than 20 years

57:11

ago, but it ignores that I've

57:13

asked him almost exclusively about much more recent

57:15

events. Carl now

57:17

says some things are being said about him,

57:20

presumably in this very podcast. He

57:22

says some of them are true and others are not.

57:25

After I read this letter, I email Carl

57:27

to ask him to specify which is which. To

57:30

date, he still hasn't responded. I should

57:34

note the letter does admit in a

57:36

very general sense that he hurt people,

57:39

that he caused, quote, major

57:41

setbacks for individuals. But

57:43

I've asked Carl specifically about people he's hurt.

57:47

People I've spoken to who have told

57:49

me that Carl exploited them or ruined the

57:51

happiest day of their life or shattered

57:53

their self worth. And

57:55

he's told me time and time again, he's

57:57

not responsible. A lot of

57:59

these people don't. need or want Carl's

58:01

apologies. At least one of them doesn't even

58:03

think this letter counts as one. To

58:06

Janay McCullough, it's simply

58:08

lip service. It

58:10

doesn't really say anything. You

58:13

know, I write to you with transparency, honesty,

58:15

and a hope for understanding, but

58:18

he doesn't address anything. I was

58:21

slow to pay back debts. No, you weren't. You've never

58:23

paid them back. It's not

58:25

that you were slow to pay them back. You

58:27

actively stole from people and are continuing to

58:29

do so. It's a lot of fluff. But

58:33

I think anyone with two brain cells can

58:35

read through this and see

58:38

that it's kind of full of shit. Janay

58:40

is one of the hundred or so people I

58:42

interviewed for this podcast over the past three years.

58:45

One of Carl's victims. One

58:47

of the many honestly brave people who

58:49

opened up to me about their experiences

58:51

with a con man. This

58:54

was the worst

58:56

time in my life, hands down, over

58:59

being homeless and everything else. It

59:01

was horrible. I

59:04

almost killed myself because of this. They just kept

59:07

coming. In the worst ways

59:12

and it just felt like it was never going to stop.

59:14

The only way out was to kill myself.

59:18

This is the level that

59:20

these guys, specifically Carl, operated

59:22

in. Just

59:25

abuse and harassment. They

59:27

infiltrated our lives and used

59:30

it against us. It

59:32

just felt endless. It's

59:35

real trauma. There is real trauma

59:37

associated with cons

59:40

and scams and people like him.

59:44

Janay wasn't sure she was going to talk to me

59:46

back in 2021 when I first reached out to her

59:48

and Josh. But she tells

59:50

me today she's glad she did. experience

1:00:00

is very isolating. No

1:00:03

one can relate unless you've been through this. And so

1:00:05

to hear it out of someone else's mouth that they

1:00:08

were going through and feeling the same things that

1:00:10

I was feeling has been really reassuring.

1:00:12

It makes you feel

1:00:15

less alone. You're not crazy

1:00:17

for feeling that way. And

1:00:19

that was part of what I hope this podcast would

1:00:22

accomplish, to make Carl's victims feel

1:00:24

less alone, to let them know other

1:00:26

smart people fell for the same tricks. This

1:00:29

show can't fix the hurt he's caused, but it

1:00:31

can help the shame. Beyond

1:00:34

offering some comfort, I also wanted to get

1:00:36

some answers. And that's what the

1:00:38

past seven episodes have been about. But

1:00:40

one question I'm not sure I'll ever know the

1:00:43

answer to is, why? Why did

1:00:45

Carl do the things he did? Why did

1:00:47

he choose this particular path? In

1:00:50

the absence of those answers, all we're

1:00:52

left with are theories. And I'd

1:00:54

like to share a few of those with you now. Let

1:01:00

me start with my conclusion. Carl

1:01:03

Bucho isn't exactly a master criminal.

1:01:06

That is, I just don't think he's ever

1:01:08

had a grand plan. Not one that

1:01:10

looked like this. Carl has put in a

1:01:12

lot of work the past few years, both

1:01:15

into his companies and into keeping

1:01:17

his lives straight. This is an

1:01:19

awesome get rich quicks game. And

1:01:21

despite the cars and apartments and accessories,

1:01:23

I'm pretty sure he and Barrett aren't actually

1:01:26

rich. This is grueling work for

1:01:28

a few thousand bucks here or there, or

1:01:30

to avoid paying someone where you owe them. And

1:01:33

all of the schemes, at least the ones that

1:01:35

I found, are, in a word,

1:01:37

unsustainable. Even

1:01:39

the outright scams in California aren't things that

1:01:41

could have lasted forever. I've

1:01:44

often thought, why not live out in

1:01:46

the open and run an honest business? Why

1:01:48

not apply your talents and work ethic to something that

1:01:50

will stick? Which

1:01:52

brings me to Texas. He

1:01:55

says things are different there. Despite

1:01:57

the fake names, and the same lies

1:01:59

he's always. told and him owing Amy Seville

1:02:01

so much money that she went to the

1:02:03

police and then went and found me a

1:02:06

journalist already investigating Carl's scams.

1:02:11

These aren't the kinds of things that happen to

1:02:13

someone living an honest life. But

1:02:20

as far as I can tell, Carl

1:02:22

isn't running a fly-by-night operation in Texas.

1:02:25

There's no trail of pissed off wedding couples, no

1:02:28

lawsuits either. Over the

1:02:30

past nine months, he's even paid Amy and some other

1:02:32

vendors a lot of what he owes them. And

1:02:35

in fact, he started investing in Charleston

1:02:38

Lane. He spent tens of thousands

1:02:40

of dollars on a new bridal suite and

1:02:42

new floors. Of course,

1:02:44

this feels hypocritical, considering how much

1:02:46

he owes under his other aliases.

1:02:49

But this is a far cry from the low-rent

1:02:51

New Zorati launch party or the dirt floors at

1:02:54

Sankraft. It's not what you'd expect out

1:02:56

of someone who's trying to take the money and run. Given

1:02:59

all the questions and information I have, I

1:03:01

can't say that his Texas business is completely

1:03:03

legit. But I can't say in

1:03:05

good conscience that it's a complete scam either. Part

1:03:08

of me thinks this is all about survival, that

1:03:11

yeah, he'll never pay people in California

1:03:13

the hundreds of thousands he owes them.

1:03:15

Because quite frankly, he's already gotten away

1:03:18

with it. But since he's

1:03:20

putting down roots in Texas, he has

1:03:22

to call over them the lines a little more. Especially

1:03:24

after all the work that people like Amy and

1:03:26

Leah have done to get the word out about

1:03:28

him, especially after this

1:03:31

podcast. There are eyes

1:03:33

on him now, and he can't afford to have his

1:03:35

life blow up again. But

1:03:37

there's another part of me, and it's worried

1:03:39

that the other shoe will eventually drop, that

1:03:42

his old habits will kick in. And I'll

1:03:44

come back to you in six months and say, well,

1:03:47

Carl did it again, the money dried

1:03:49

up and he disappeared. A

1:03:52

few weeks ago, I was talking to a friend about

1:03:54

this story. And my friend said

1:03:56

something that stuck with me. He told

1:03:58

me that he thought Carl was the- the gamma equivalent

1:04:00

of a jazz musician, that

1:04:02

basically he doesn't go in with a plan. He

1:04:06

improvises. He starts playing a note

1:04:08

or telling a lie and just sees where

1:04:10

it takes him. I gotta

1:04:13

say, of all the metaphors I've kicked around,

1:04:15

that's the one that feels the closest. There's

1:04:18

no blueprint to his house of cards. It's

1:04:21

taken me a while to get to this place. When

1:04:24

you pull back the curtain, you expect to see

1:04:26

an evil genius. It's the only

1:04:28

way to make sense of everything. And

1:04:30

that's natural. We're trained to think this

1:04:32

way. By the books we read. By

1:04:35

the movies we watch. Hell, by

1:04:37

the podcasts we listen to. Stories

1:04:40

are easier to tell when the villains and

1:04:42

heroes have clear motivations. But

1:04:44

from where I sit, Carl's motivations

1:04:46

are anything but. As

1:04:49

I've tried to get into Carl's head, I've

1:04:51

kept coming back to everything he told me about his

1:04:53

upbringing. What it was like for him

1:04:55

as a kid. To feel alone. Like

1:04:58

he wasn't good enough. And what

1:05:00

I've come to believe is that all the

1:05:02

lies, all the scams, all the betrayal. It's

1:05:05

only partly about money. It's

1:05:08

also about power. Respect.

1:05:11

Status. It's

1:05:13

why, instead of taking a good job as a

1:05:15

chef, Carl tries to fake his way

1:05:18

to a high-end catering company. Why

1:05:20

a successful business with Janae wasn't enough, so

1:05:22

he tried to spin it into a restaurant

1:05:24

empire. Why he couldn't

1:05:26

just start a little blog and go on

1:05:28

a mission with Nuzarati and instead had to

1:05:30

build the next Huffington Post but better. It's

1:05:34

why he'll never quit relying on that fake

1:05:36

backstory with the private jets and the trust

1:05:38

fund. Because to acknowledge

1:05:40

the truth would mean acknowledging where he came

1:05:42

from. Speaking

1:05:44

of which, over the past few

1:05:47

years, I've discovered a few things

1:05:49

about Carl's past that surprised me. Because

1:05:51

we have more in common than I expected.

1:05:54

We're the same age, born the same year

1:05:57

to Italian Catholic families in the Northeast. We

1:06:00

moved to LA in 2015, actually within

1:06:02

a few weeks of each other, both

1:06:04

looking for a fresh start. And

1:06:06

as you heard last episode, we both struggled

1:06:08

with drugs and alcohol. But

1:06:11

the thing that really got my attention? Our

1:06:13

dads. Both tough blue

1:06:15

collar guys. Guys who

1:06:17

built things and worked with their hands. They

1:06:20

actually even had the same job. They

1:06:22

both did HVAC repair. In

1:06:24

a way, the similarities are uncanny.

1:06:27

Carl and I had a lot of the same advantages. Disadvantages.

1:06:31

Influences. I

1:06:33

mean, we both had Catholic moms. That's

1:06:36

gonna count for something, right? But

1:06:39

of course, there are some big differences between

1:06:41

us. Beyond the obvious. For

1:06:44

one, I have a great relationship with my

1:06:46

dad. Another difference?

1:06:50

Carl grew up gay and a tough place to be

1:06:52

gay. And I admit, it's

1:06:55

possible I'll never be able to actually get inside his

1:06:57

head. Still, I can't

1:07:00

help but wonder, what was

1:07:02

it that made him exactly who he is? Why

1:07:04

did he end up this way when so many

1:07:06

people who have had the same experiences didn't? But

1:07:10

mostly, I think, was

1:07:12

the thin line separating the scammer

1:07:15

from the guy investigating him? I

1:07:17

wish I could tell you for certain that we figured this

1:07:20

all out. Not exact balance

1:07:22

of nature and nurture got him here. But

1:07:25

the truth is, it's messy. I'm

1:07:27

not even sure Carl could explain it. While

1:07:30

we're on the subject of our fathers, one

1:07:33

last thing about mine. He isn't big

1:07:35

on advice, but he has one rule that he

1:07:37

lives by, and that he hopes I do too. You

1:07:40

have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and

1:07:42

feel good about what you see. Most

1:07:44

days, I know that I do. But

1:07:47

when Carl looks in the mirror, what does he

1:07:49

see? Who's looking back at

1:07:51

him? Is it a con man? Is

1:07:54

it a misunderstood businessman just trying to do

1:07:56

good? Or is it what he described

1:07:59

to me in our phone call? Just

1:08:01

a damaged kid trying to fix something inside

1:08:03

of him. Of

1:08:07

course, believing that last one requires

1:08:09

believing everything Carl's told me. That

1:08:11

his childhood was as bad as he's described it. That

1:08:14

he made some mistakes when he was younger and got caught

1:08:16

up in a cycle of lies and deceit. It

1:08:19

means that you have to take his word at face

1:08:21

value. In a way,

1:08:23

I'm worried that this is his latest con.

1:08:26

Manipulating me to feel a certain way. Just

1:08:29

like he did to Janay, to Amy, to

1:08:31

others around him. Using my

1:08:34

emotions, my empathy against me.

1:08:37

Getting me to even consider the possibility that

1:08:39

this time is different, even though so much

1:08:41

of it looks the same. To

1:08:43

think that he's anything other than what he's proved

1:08:46

himself to be, time and time again. In

1:08:49

that light, I'm not sure I'm ready to

1:08:51

believe him. How about you?

1:08:55

What do you believe? I

1:09:01

like to end stories where they begin. So

1:09:04

back in October, I call up Amy Savelle

1:09:06

and Leah Baker for one last interview. We're

1:09:09

not in CVS this time. We're on

1:09:11

our separate computers and our separate hometowns,

1:09:13

having a conversation just a few days

1:09:15

before the first episode of this series

1:09:17

drops. I start by asking

1:09:19

them about that night at Carl's venue. Did

1:09:22

you guys feel like spies? Absolutely.

1:09:25

Yeah. So, Vert, you kind

1:09:27

of almost blew our cover with your stupid

1:09:29

cowboy hat and your chugs. You

1:09:32

like a literally stuck out like a

1:09:34

sore thumb. You look the least Texan

1:09:36

person in the entire place. You

1:09:39

were like, where's Waldo? Except

1:09:42

that like everybody was wearing

1:09:44

all black and you were the

1:09:46

guy in the red stripes shirt. All

1:09:49

right, Amy. Point taken. The

1:09:51

cowboy hat doesn't match the Providence accent.

1:09:54

Next, we talk about this podcast.

1:09:57

They tell me they're curious about how listeners might react

1:09:59

to the wedding. scammer, including one

1:10:01

particular listener, Carl, assuming

1:10:04

he wants to jump down the rabbit hole with us. Still,

1:10:08

Amy and Leah are proud of what we've accomplished, helping

1:10:11

to get word out about who Carl really is so

1:10:13

people know who they're dealing with. And

1:10:16

he used so many different names. He

1:10:19

literally had to change names

1:10:21

everywhere he went because of

1:10:23

the horrible things that he

1:10:26

did to everybody. That

1:10:28

for me is what's wrong with it. If

1:10:31

he had made some mistakes, wrote

1:10:33

some hot checks in West Virginia when

1:10:35

he was younger, maybe

1:10:38

even stealing the credit

1:10:40

card of his boyfriend in New York, went

1:10:42

to jail, learned a lesson, went to California,

1:10:45

changed his name. But

1:10:47

he just kept fucking up and

1:10:49

being a shady, shifty person

1:10:52

everywhere all the way to here. If he was

1:10:54

just trying to change his name and start new

1:10:56

and start this venue and live

1:10:59

his dream, we wouldn't be here, you

1:11:01

know? The whole

1:11:03

thing feels bizarre to them. Just

1:11:05

about a year ago, they were still working with

1:11:07

the person they thought was Lance Miller. And

1:11:10

now you're on a first name basis with them.

1:11:14

Amy and Leah are key characters in a

1:11:16

true crime podcast, a podcast

1:11:18

that wouldn't exist without them. Amy

1:11:21

was the real sluice, you guys,

1:11:23

both of y'all, but she

1:11:26

would Google something and then I'd Google something. And then she

1:11:28

would Google like 20 more things. And I was like, okay,

1:11:30

I'm going to bed, Amy. She's like,

1:11:32

I'm going to be up for 10

1:11:34

more hours looking at this. I would

1:11:36

just like sit for like

1:11:38

hours, like cross-referencing, like all

1:11:41

these like different things. Even

1:11:44

like I've been stuck to Justin that

1:11:46

Justin didn't even have. It's

1:11:48

true. Same goes for Nancy

1:11:51

from Newzirardi, Alice in Pennsylvania,

1:11:53

Josh and Janae. But Amy

1:11:55

and Leah hold a special place in my amateur

1:11:57

detective lineup because they're who

1:12:00

figured him out in real time while he was still

1:12:02

in their lives. When I asked

1:12:04

them what they hope happens next, Amy tells

1:12:06

me she's mostly been paid back, so she'd like

1:12:08

to see Carl do the same for others. The

1:12:11

new Zoradi staff, the cook shop employees,

1:12:14

the couples who sued him, Josh and

1:12:16

Janaye. Maybe that doesn't happen

1:12:18

through the court system, but maybe he can

1:12:20

like put his best foot forward and set

1:12:22

up like a little trust fund

1:12:24

for them. The best fund that he's claimed he's

1:12:27

had instead of having one in his name, he

1:12:29

could set it up for all the people that

1:12:31

he fucked over and like

1:12:33

pay them back, even if it's little

1:12:35

by little until the day that he dies because

1:12:37

that would be the right thing to do. And

1:12:39

maybe just then he might make it into heaven.

1:12:42

Beyond making people whole, we're

1:12:44

hoping for something else. Closure.

1:12:47

I put

1:12:51

years in my likeness of this story. I

1:12:54

flew around the country and people I would

1:12:56

have never known otherwise went undercover at one

1:12:58

point. And I've gotten a lot of

1:13:00

what I'm looking for, namely answers to

1:13:03

questions that magnified me for years, even

1:13:05

if I'll never get all of them. But

1:13:08

as I sit here recording the final words

1:13:10

of the final script of this series, I

1:13:13

simply hope that people like Amy, people like

1:13:15

Josh and Janaye feel like

1:13:17

they contributed to something important. That

1:13:19

they help shine a light on not just Carl,

1:13:22

but on how the system lets scammers like him

1:13:24

slip through the cracks. But

1:13:26

that also they know they're not alone and

1:13:29

that I respect the

1:13:31

hell out of them

1:13:33

for what they did

1:13:35

here. Carl Bucho and all of his

1:13:37

aliases may never have to own up to everything,

1:13:40

but by knowing this show exists, he

1:13:42

has to know that there are people out there he

1:13:45

can't ever fool again. That this

1:13:47

time around, he got outsmarted.

1:13:50

And that to me feels

1:13:52

like this was all worth it. But

1:13:55

I realize and Amy and Leah realize that this

1:13:58

may not be the end of the story. story

1:14:01

because there's always a chance that Carl could

1:14:03

just up and run, take out another new

1:14:05

name and start the cycle all

1:14:07

over again. I

1:14:13

don't think that I will ever stop

1:14:15

looking for him because I want to prevent

1:14:17

him from doing

1:14:19

the things that he's done here

1:14:22

and the things that he did to Josh and

1:14:24

Janae and to the

1:14:26

clients in California. I

1:14:29

think that for me it's important

1:14:31

to just try to keep tabs

1:14:33

on them as long as I

1:14:35

can and raise awareness about who

1:14:37

he is. And

1:14:42

if we do lose track of him, at least the

1:14:44

next person who goes digging might not have to connect

1:14:46

all the dots. Or at least they'll

1:14:49

have a better sense of how to get a wire on their

1:14:51

chest. The

1:14:56

Wedding Scammer was reported and written by

1:14:58

me, Justin Sayles. But it

1:15:00

took a whole village to make and I'd like to thank

1:15:02

as many of the villagers as I can right now. First,

1:15:05

to our executive producers, Julia

1:15:08

Littman, Sean Fennesey and especially

1:15:10

Mallory Rubin. Thank you all

1:15:12

for believing in this. Thank you Mal for

1:15:14

listening to me tell this story back in Sun Segara in

1:15:16

2019 saying we should try something

1:15:19

here. To Amanda Dobbins,

1:15:21

our story editor. Just when

1:15:23

I first pitched this as a podcast for real, I said

1:15:25

I was hoping I could work with you on this. I'd

1:15:28

make that same ask 100 times out of 100. Thank

1:15:31

you for everything. Best editor in the business.

1:15:34

To Bill Simmons, thank you for

1:15:36

keeping me gainfully employed. Thank you for

1:15:38

the support. Thank you for letting me make

1:15:40

this strange thing. I hope you're as proud of

1:15:42

it as I am. To our

1:15:44

producer, Jade Whaley, thank you for the long

1:15:46

hours in the studio, for the hard work,

1:15:48

for the good vibes. But mostly,

1:15:51

thank you for not letting me call this

1:15:53

show the Cockroach. I hope we get

1:15:55

to do another one of these one day. To

1:15:57

our producer, Mike Wargone, literally.

1:16:00

not have made the show without you

1:16:02

pitching in. Thank you for everything, seriously.

1:16:05

To Bobby Wagner, our producer and

1:16:07

sound designer. You left 100 smart,

1:16:09

thoughtful notes. You made the show sound as good

1:16:11

as it did. You're seriously the

1:16:14

best and I owe you a buddy's fancy t-shirt.

1:16:16

Please don't let me forget. To

1:16:18

Craig Gaines, our copy editor. One

1:16:20

of the smartest, most stand-up people I've met in

1:16:22

this business. Thank you for hiring

1:16:25

me back in 2016 right after New Zorardi

1:16:27

collapsed. I hope you don't regret it.

1:16:30

To Dan Comer, our fact checker. One

1:16:32

day, we'll make our own catch me if you can.

1:16:35

Until then, I hope this suffices.

1:16:38

To Sam Cade Gunperk, thank you for

1:16:40

protecting me from myself. This show

1:16:42

is like 70% smarter because of you

1:16:44

two. Scott Somerville, from Mixing

1:16:46

and Mastering. You made this thing shine and

1:16:48

you made it sound like a real podcast

1:16:51

and I still can't get over it. To

1:16:53

David Shoemaker, thank you for the brilliant

1:16:55

show art. I'm sure half the

1:16:58

reason that people actually clicked this thing was

1:17:00

because your design jumped out. It was genius.

1:17:03

Speaking of genius, to Corey McConnell,

1:17:06

thank you for the brilliant video trailer and thank

1:17:08

you for your early support. You're

1:17:10

the best, man. To Justin Katony

1:17:12

of 13th Ward Social Club for the

1:17:14

soundtrack. No one on earth I'd

1:17:16

rather work with. I'm glad we finally got to make

1:17:18

something together. I never thought it

1:17:20

would be like this, but 20 years later, I'm

1:17:23

happy it was. To

1:17:25

everyone who lent their voices to

1:17:27

this show, but especially Josh Antimieri

1:17:29

and Janay McCulloch, Amy Savelle and

1:17:31

Leah Baker, Alice Kranz,

1:17:34

Josh Bartolomeo, Nancy Lee Joves,

1:17:36

Helen Williams and Mark Williamson,

1:17:38

and Matt Gurlock. Thank

1:17:40

you all for trusting me with your stories and

1:17:43

thank you for helping this investigation. I couldn't

1:17:45

have made this without you all. And

1:17:48

also to the long list of friends, family and

1:17:50

colleagues who supported me on this journey. Nat

1:17:53

and Cara Binns, Laura Langtree,

1:17:55

Connor Nevins, Ben Glixman,

1:17:58

Austin Gale, Danny Heidler, Kim

1:18:01

Abruzzo, Donnie Morrison, Alan

1:18:03

Segal, Lorraine Tran and Zach

1:18:05

Drummond, Rob Harvilla, Yasi

1:18:08

Sellick, Andrew Byrne, Julian

1:18:11

Guarro, Johnny Davis, Chelsea

1:18:14

Starke Jones, Arjuna

1:18:16

Ramgopal, Noah Malalei

1:18:19

and especially to my two biggest

1:18:21

fans, Paul and Jean Sales. I

1:18:24

don't know how many hours you all listen to me go on

1:18:26

and on about this. I just hope it was

1:18:28

all worth it. And

1:18:30

before I go, a few very

1:18:32

special shout outs. First

1:18:35

to my girlfriend, Cole O'Hinesian. I

1:18:38

know this project has sucked up a lot of oxygen in

1:18:40

the past few years, but thank you for

1:18:42

understanding how important it was to me. Thank

1:18:45

you for helping me with the show, reading through

1:18:47

the scripts, giving me ideas, helping me

1:18:49

with a really great social basis. The

1:18:52

show isn't what it is without you. Also,

1:18:55

thank you for keeping my house clean for life, for

1:18:58

helping keep the freedom, thanks

1:19:00

for keeping me clean. I'm so

1:19:02

lucky and I love you. Also,

1:19:04

to my guy Vikram

1:19:06

Patel, one of my producers, quite

1:19:09

literally the person who the show wouldn't exist

1:19:11

without me. Thank you for all

1:19:13

the hours, all the suggestions, all

1:19:15

the phone calls, all the

1:19:18

kinda therapy sessions. Thank

1:19:20

you for finding logic in my ramblings and for breaking

1:19:22

out the red yarn when we needed it. Thank

1:19:25

you for believing this was a story. And

1:19:27

thank you most of all for your friendship. This

1:19:30

has exceeded what I expected when I first told you

1:19:32

about it when you had been at the ringer for

1:19:34

like three whole minutes. A lot of

1:19:36

that is because of you. I can't

1:19:38

express how much I appreciate you. Okay,

1:19:41

and lastly, to all the listeners,

1:19:44

I hope you've enjoyed jumping on the rabbit hole with us.

1:19:47

I hope if we ever make a season two,

1:19:49

you jump right back down with us. And

1:19:52

make these things and you don't really know if people are going

1:19:54

to care. And to see how

1:19:56

many people did both throughout the process and now

1:19:58

that this is out in the world. has

1:20:00

been amazing and humbling. I

1:20:03

don't know what else to say other than hopefully

1:20:05

I'll see you next time. Alright,

1:20:07

this is Justin. Signing

1:20:09

off, I guess.