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The Weeds. I'm Jacqueline. Hell. And.

1:11

Some decisions leave a whole lot of

1:13

questions in their wake. Like.

1:16

A recent case out of Alabama. Money

1:19

to some of the Hudson and my

1:21

question is about Ivy of and personhood.

1:23

I'm curious about the future illegal in

1:26

Tulsa. consequences of the Alabama Supreme Court

1:28

ruling establish personhood at fertilization. Him

1:31

at these referring to the Alabama I

1:33

v F reeling from earlier this year

1:35

three couples immobile sued after a patient

1:37

at a hospital connected to a fertility

1:40

clinic got a hold of some embryos.

1:42

And drop them. They were destroyed.

1:45

The. State Supreme Court basically said that

1:47

destroying those embryos was the same

1:49

as destroying children and that decision

1:51

opened up a pandora's box of

1:53

legal what ifs. Big questions about

1:55

the future of I V F

1:57

at Alabama I Vf in this

1:59

country and. What happens if legal

2:01

status is granted at conception? Some

2:03

people seeking I've yesterday cannot have embryo

2:05

transfer and cannot have the moved out

2:07

of state for the procedure because providers

2:09

don't want to risk the loss of

2:12

the embryos. Can those providers be held

2:14

liable for wrongful imprisonment or kidnapping of

2:16

these embryos? Now. Since. Timothy

2:18

sent us as question that the

2:20

Alabama legislature passed the law protecting

2:22

idea patients and providers as a

2:24

direct. Response to the States supreme

2:26

court rulings. But the law does

2:28

not address the bigger question. Of

2:30

legal personhood alternatively. How

2:33

does this affect our lives? For things

2:35

like minimum wages, to get a driver's

2:37

license, register to vote to service. And

2:40

to purchase tobacco and alcohol products. For.

2:42

Any hypothetical person's conceives or i vs

2:44

after having the embryo frozen for five

2:47

years. As the album a recently established,

2:49

they have a right to vote twelve

2:51

or thirteen years after they were blur.

2:54

The State of reproductive rights right now.

2:56

It's complicated and it's messy. Today

2:59

and Louise. We're going to

3:01

get Timothy some answers and there's one

3:03

person I always. Turn to for questions

3:05

like these. My.

3:09

Name's Mary regular on Martin Luther

3:11

King Professor of Law at a

3:14

Sunday the School of Law. I'm

3:16

working actually on a book now on

3:18

sale Personhood on the Twenty Twenty Three

3:21

Twenty Twenty Four Guggenheim Fellow which is

3:23

supporting Network. And I've written

3:25

six. Other books on struggles

3:27

over a production. On the most

3:29

recent was published and twenty twenty three. Let's

3:32

think back to June two thousand and

3:34

twenty two, back when Row was overturned,

3:37

And you know, as someone who's studied

3:39

this history. Of reproductive rights.

3:41

What was your immediate. Thought.

3:44

About what word or what

3:46

could happen next. How.

3:49

I think the my most immediate thought was

3:51

just that this wasn't overwrite the supreme court

3:53

sort of made out as if this was

3:55

the end of conflicts in the courts and

3:57

really the end of conflicts about abortion that

3:59

eventually state when sort of work it out

4:01

where each. Issue is fiction

4:03

would have laws that reflected what voters wanted

4:05

and things would kind of simmer down and

4:08

I expected that not to happen first, because

4:10

I expected dogs itself to be unpopular, but

4:12

also because I expected Dobbs not to be

4:14

the under the road for opponents of abortion

4:17

who had always been. Interested.

4:19

In this idea of fetal personhood. In other

4:21

words, for them, it was never just about

4:23

getting rid of a right to abortion. it

4:26

was always also about pursuing this idea of

4:28

rights for fetuses and embryos. Insiders: So I

4:30

was expecting to see rulings like the Alabama

4:32

Supreme Court sooner or later, and I was

4:35

expecting to see larger anti abortion groups react

4:37

to the ruling the way they have. Which

4:39

is to see it as a starting. Point

4:41

for something much bigger. Okay, something

4:44

to know. Throughout. This interview

4:46

you'll hear myriad I use the term fetal

4:48

personhood. That's because it's the term being

4:50

used as a debate, but. These. Laws

4:52

aren't just about fetuses. they aim

4:55

to give legal rights beginning at

4:57

conception, whereas the fetal states doesn't

4:59

begin until around the ninth week

5:01

of pregnancy. I asked

5:04

Mary how futile personhood. Is. To. Do

5:07

that to tested the basics of fetal

5:09

for senator, not contest. And the

5:11

basics of fetal personhood say that

5:13

an embryo or a zygote or

5:16

a fetus is a whole, separate,

5:18

independent person biologically even if that

5:20

person is in utero, and that

5:23

that person has legal and and

5:25

probably constitutional rights either should have

5:27

word already does have constitutional rights,

5:29

which means. That for

5:32

example, if as if voters in a

5:34

state wants to have a right to

5:36

abortion, they can't because that would violate

5:38

the Federal constitution, it would mean potentially

5:41

that the way I the Ss it's

5:43

currently practice now violates the constitution. Having

5:45

said that, you know there's a lot

5:47

of unanswered questions about what fetal personhood

5:49

is, because for a long time it

5:52

was just the sort of aspiration whole

5:54

thing in the Republican Party platform and

5:56

that anti abortion advocates talked about when

5:58

they were alone. But. No

6:01

one really thought you could practically do anything

6:03

about it. So they're a lot of things

6:05

that really haven't been worked out within the

6:07

anti Abortion movement. About some of the very.

6:09

Questions were starting the sea surface Today's.

6:11

What? Is that end of? The

6:14

road for Philo personhood for those

6:16

who are. Anti Abortion advocates

6:18

like what does it look like

6:20

because I as part of me

6:22

as this is playing out unlike

6:24

was aeroplan. like what? what's happening.

6:27

More. I mean, I think the and

6:29

team has to either be a constitutional

6:31

Amendment recognizing personhood, which some people in

6:33

the antiabortion movement still say as the

6:35

way to go, but that seems almost

6:37

impossible, right? I mean, you couldn't even

6:40

get a national statute recognizing sito personhood

6:42

right now, much less a constitutional amendment.

6:44

Which. Requires you know a super majority

6:46

of state legislatures and a super majority

6:49

in Congress. So what it probably looks

6:51

like as the Us Supreme Court decision

6:53

saying the word person and see parts

6:56

of the constitution's applies to life than

6:58

the moment and agis fertilized which would

7:00

potentially. Breeze. All kinds of

7:02

questions about the constitutionality of lots of

7:04

state reproductive rights protection, so that's probably

7:07

what it looks like. So on the

7:09

one. and I do think people who

7:11

are champions of personhood. Do

7:13

have a plan in the sense that

7:15

I think they're building toward something in

7:17

the Us Supreme Court's I think on

7:19

the other hand, there a lot of

7:21

the harder, messier questions they've been kind

7:24

of pushing off. Because.

7:26

They didn't think they would need to answer

7:28

them immediately, that all of a sudden had

7:30

become of immediate practical relevance. And so this

7:32

impression of people sort of flying blind is

7:34

not completely strong. Can. You

7:36

walk us through the language. And the

7:39

relevant parts of the dogs opinion

7:41

that opens up this sort of.

7:44

Legal Can of Worms. One.

7:46

Thing that's interesting is no one in Dogs

7:48

actually talks about fetal personhood directly and up.

7:50

There was a surprise to a lot of

7:52

people, including me. I thought Clarence Thomas was

7:55

going to generally. Clarence Thomas is good for

7:57

like being the person who talks about the

7:59

really conservatively. The argument no one else

8:01

will touch but he didn't either. And

8:03

that was notwithstanding this accident that more

8:05

lots and lots of different antiabortion group

8:08

said personhood in their breeze. Having said

8:10

that, there are lots of things in

8:12

dogs that encouraged person had proponents to

8:14

keep moving forward. One dog used a

8:16

lot of language that was reminiscent of

8:18

the person had movements and described abortion

8:21

for example, as the taking of a

8:23

human life. And dogs told

8:25

a story about Us history. Essentially that

8:27

abortion had always been looked down on,

8:29

had always been a crime throw pregnancy

8:31

in one way or another that was

8:33

very similar to the arguments being made

8:35

by a worsen opponents. Set.

8:37

The authors of the relevant parts of

8:39

the constitution had always seen a fetus

8:41

or rights holding person, so. A

8:44

lot of that meant that personhood proponents

8:46

One, we're excited about dogs because Row

8:48

was no longer in the ways. Row.

8:51

Had not only held there was a right to worsen,

8:53

but had actually rejected the idea that a fetus. Was

8:56

a person under the fourteenth amendment and

8:58

sue there were sort of brought a

9:00

break from tail coming out of dogs

9:02

suggesting. That the poor it wasn't ready to

9:04

recognize fetal personhood today. That that. There was

9:06

certainly hope that the court could change it's

9:08

mind and the future. Some.

9:12

States have recognition of fetal personhood in

9:14

their laws right now. But.

9:16

When did this idea first take hold? That's

9:19

up next. Support

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The weeds were back. And. I'm sorry

12:47

he would marry Ziegler about the legal

12:50

concept of person said I asked her

12:52

what the current legal landscape is. There.

12:54

A lot of states like upwards of a dozen

12:56

states that have. Some. Kind

12:58

of fairly broad recognition of fetal person,

13:00

So what isn't clear as how much

13:03

any of them are intended to actually

13:05

be enforceable. So for example, Alabama had

13:07

this twenty eighteen constitutional amendments saying okay,

13:09

a fetus is a person that with

13:11

rights and so on, but no one

13:13

really knew or I think still knows

13:16

what that means in practical terms and

13:18

the same sort of thing is true,

13:20

and a lot of other states, there's

13:22

some states that have clearer laws like

13:24

Arizona has allowed that just says personhood

13:26

begins when an egg is fertilized. That

13:29

that's being held up and court right now.

13:31

but if it were enforceable it would just

13:33

mean a see this as a person all

13:35

the time for all purposes That's new and

13:37

usual. We've seen this. This legislative

13:39

session a lot of states trying to

13:41

recognize to see this for limited purposes.

13:44

So for example. In. Homicide

13:46

Boss if you kill a pregnant person

13:48

that though lot of states will say

13:50

well that's actually two homicides, not one

13:52

because of the see or if you

13:55

know someone like a seat is dies

13:57

in utero can you sue if you

13:59

are die. Without a will, there's a fetus

14:01

get to inherit in of these are the

14:03

kinds of bills we see more of. This

14:05

is a very dynamic area and I think

14:07

after the Alabama Supreme Court decision, it's or

14:09

ironically kind of become harder for Republicans to

14:11

legislate in this area cause on the one

14:13

hand you have. A lot

14:16

of independence and moderate voters saying whoa,

14:18

this fetal person's a thing as all

14:20

these unintended consequences. Maybe you shouldn't be

14:22

doing this as you have a lot

14:25

of very conservative voters saying some of

14:27

these more modest proposal like involving child

14:29

tax credits or wrongful death just don't

14:31

go far enough rice. They want more

14:33

sweeping recognition of feet or rates so.

14:36

I think we have to sort of stay tuned to

14:38

see how the legislative landscapes going to change. Marry.

14:41

A How did we get to

14:43

this point? winded fetal personhood. First

14:46

come up in American politics. So.

14:49

This concept emerged in the Nineteen sixties,

14:51

so it is. It wasn't immediately a

14:53

concept that showed up when American started

14:56

trying to criminalize abortion throughout pregnancy, so

14:58

there really wasn't. For example of fetal

15:00

person for the the nineteenth century when

15:03

seats first began putting in place really

15:05

sweeping the eldest, it came later in

15:07

the nineteen sixties when Americans were starting

15:10

to consider reforms to those criminal laws.

15:12

and it's worth emphasizing. You know, this

15:14

was a time when sexual mores were

15:17

changing, right when people were reconsidering laws.

15:19

On sodomy, same sex intimacy, sex

15:21

outside of marriage and also reconsidering

15:24

laws on contraception and abortion. So

15:26

at this point of what was

15:28

at the time are primarily Catholic

15:31

movements and first argued that it

15:33

was not you know necessary. To.

15:35

Reform abortion laws because. You

15:38

know, people didn't need access to

15:40

worse in pregnancy, was really safe,

15:42

so people never would need to

15:44

terminate pregnancies. And those arguments were

15:46

unsurprisingly not successful because pregnancy was

15:48

and is still pretty unsafe in

15:50

the United States, which has very

15:52

high rates of maternal mortality and

15:54

morbidity. So instead you begin to

15:56

get arguments that liberal abortion laws

15:58

were just unconstitutional. Like. Didn't matter Soldiers

16:00

one of them didn't matter if there are

16:03

medically necessary. They were just off the table

16:05

because of the constitution. So

16:07

this isn't began kind of as

16:09

a reaction to a reformed fights,

16:11

but it's lasted for a half

16:13

century. It's really had this amazing

16:15

staying. Power on the American

16:17

right. At a time when lots of other

16:19

ideas has come and gone, this idea. Has really

16:21

stuck around. So. He

16:23

wrote an op ed for the New

16:25

York Times back in August Twenty Twenty

16:28

Two a few weeks after the Jobs

16:30

decision and he made it's really interesting

16:32

connection between the Civil Rights movement and

16:34

the Person Had movement where it's sort

16:36

of talks about this claim that abortion

16:38

is a form of. Discrimination.

16:40

That you know what really matters

16:42

when it comes to equality under

16:44

the law isn't necessarily a long

16:46

history of subordination, which is what

16:49

I think we typically think of,

16:51

but that it's about physical vulnerability

16:53

and dependence. And I think that's

16:55

so interesting and I also wonder

16:57

we're The idea of personhood sits

16:59

in the American political imagination right

17:01

now. All these. Years later, He.

17:04

I mean, it's really important to say

17:06

that personhood was always and equality arguments

17:08

so you'll see over and over again.

17:10

Starting in the sixties through the presence

17:13

People say you know the unborn child

17:15

is like the enslaved person or the

17:17

unborn child, so balls better go out.

17:19

And I mean it's it's really and

17:22

mean it's an incredibly common argument. Like

17:24

I can't sell you something. The argument

17:26

is and the thing that I think

17:28

is striking about it is. One.

17:31

That it it did have this sort

17:33

of rorschach test quality work. It could

17:35

appeal to people who are opposed to

17:37

worsen of kind of were all he

17:39

of politically diverse in some ways. race

17:41

a sort of Catholic social justice types

17:43

all the way through. you know, deeply

17:45

conservative across the board southern eventually call

17:47

Protestants visit. The kind of common denominator

17:49

was this idea that conservatives have their

17:51

own vision of what equality under the

17:53

law means. that's very different from the

17:55

one we've seen in the past. Very

17:57

different from the one many progressives currently

17:59

have. Very different than

18:01

in some ways what the supreme

18:03

court had said and men on

18:05

many occasions. And so there really

18:07

was this idea. I think one

18:10

that what made the unborn child

18:12

or what made equality or particular

18:14

groups importance was not about the

18:16

past right? It wasn't about erasing

18:18

past discrimination or the legacy of

18:20

past discrimination at all. And to

18:22

that the way you really address

18:24

discrimination in the present was punishment

18:26

so conservatives overwhelmingly to are not

18:28

seeing all the way. We address

18:31

the wrongs done to the fetal

18:33

victim or by doing more to

18:35

support pregnant people writer having more

18:37

government involvement in prohibiting pregnancy discrimination

18:39

or better prenatal care. There's some

18:41

of that, but overwhelmingly the answer

18:43

is you protect the rights of

18:45

the fetal person by punishing the

18:48

people. Who wronged the fetal person?

18:50

You. Know in that the universe

18:52

of people who could get punished

18:54

at the moment primarily includes doctors

18:56

and people whose assists. Aversion.

18:58

Seekers but there's an ongoing debate and has

19:01

been for some time about whether a should

19:03

include women and abortion seekers themselves to. Has.

19:06

There ever been a point when

19:08

the idea of fetal personhood went

19:11

mainstream in politics, Or is this

19:13

something that stayed on the edges?

19:16

It's really been on the edges. Rates are

19:18

one kind of fun facts. If anybody wants

19:20

to go online, you can see that Fetal

19:22

Personhood constitutional amendments have been in the Republican

19:24

Party platform since the nineteen eighties. So.

19:27

That set of friends things like that's

19:29

one of the two major political parties

19:31

but I think was complicated about it

19:33

is that. Personhood. For

19:36

a long time was sort of like a

19:38

get out to vote tool for the Geo

19:40

Peace. It was sort of saying say we

19:42

get that you conservatives had this vision of

19:44

of equality and we get it and we're

19:46

for it. But no one really was expecting

19:48

anyone to be able to do anything about

19:50

it. So the interesting question is. Is

19:53

doing something about it to friends? Is

19:55

doing something about it not really gonna

19:57

happen or is doing something about a

19:59

going to make it's way into the

20:01

mainstream geo peace kind of proposals the

20:03

same way this constitutional amendment it as

20:05

a symbol and I just don't think

20:07

we know the answer to that yet.

20:10

So. It it's earlier stages.

20:12

How did. Personhood as

20:14

a concept divide the

20:16

anti, Abortion Movement.

20:19

In. The early years, it didn't divide the

20:21

movement as much because no one in

20:23

the movement really had to figure out

20:25

what it meant. That's when I wrote

20:27

him down, then antiabortion. Moving on to

20:30

figure out what to do next. And

20:32

the answer overwhelmingly was a Constitutional Amendments

20:34

not just letting the seats decide that,

20:36

saying that a fetus was a person.

20:39

And then in sketchy I was this

20:41

constitutional money was gonna look like antiabortion

20:43

leaders had to sort of agree on

20:45

what an ideal solution would be and

20:47

that created a lot of debate. So.

20:50

Some. And he worsen leaders would say well

20:52

you know an Amendment needs to. Treat

20:55

abortionists homicide and punish people have

20:57

abortions for homicide or murder and

20:59

other activists said will know that

21:01

that doesn't follow at all. Instead

21:03

what we really need to do

21:05

is and length of lawyers appointed

21:07

for fetuses before abortions could occur

21:09

in. The goal would be to

21:11

just discourage people from performing abortions.

21:13

Not to be. Incarcerated what each

21:15

other. People were arguing that you would need.

21:18

Also. Need for government intervention to protect

21:21

pregnant people like he would need childcare

21:23

laws and he would need better prenatal

21:25

care. and you would meet all these

21:27

other things that a fetus was a

21:29

person. The government would need to treat

21:31

pregnant people and women a whole lot

21:33

better than it already had. So there

21:35

are all these debates about what enforcement

21:37

would look like. And then of course

21:39

he became really clear that you can't

21:41

pass constitutional personhood amendment which is still

21:43

true today. It's and then the movement

21:45

was sort of able to retreat back

21:47

into the is kind. Of symbolics debates

21:49

about oh hey, personhood were all for it.

21:52

person who discreet personhood is aspiration of without

21:54

really sketching out what it was gonna mean

21:56

And that had really been kind of the

21:58

status quo until after. The role is overturned.

22:02

At next we get a timid these

22:04

questions and the pandora's. Box of weirdness

22:06

second come from a legal recognition of

22:09

personhood. Will be right back. Hi

22:16

I'm kill other and source of power user

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unlocking as on your favorite podcast

23:36

app. And as I'm always

23:38

say on third of raised and and.

23:49

Sumerian. One thing that we've

23:51

discussed a little bit earlier is the Fourteenth

23:54

Amendments. And you know, I often think of

23:56

the Fourteenth Amendment as the amendment that keeps

23:58

on giving because I. You'll like

24:01

it comes up so

24:03

often. Why are fetal

24:05

personhood advocates circling? In on

24:07

the Fourteenth Amendment, in particular. I.

24:09

Think it's a combination of the fact

24:12

that the Fourteenth Amendment does kind of

24:14

get very purpose by social movements and

24:16

it has since the sixties, but also

24:19

again because the Fourteenth Amendment is about

24:21

equality and fundamental rights and so person

24:23

and proponents are not sustain. Abortion is

24:26

immoral or abortion or a idea for

24:28

problematic socially. They're really saying that they

24:30

have a vision of what equality in

24:33

the United States should mean and what

24:35

kinds of constitutional traditions we should haves.

24:38

And. The Fourteenth Amendment i think more

24:40

than any other part of the constitution

24:43

sort of embodies that idea. So you're

24:45

seeing, I'm. Conservative.

24:47

Groups I think turned to the Fourteenth

24:49

Amendment to say, you know if if

24:51

were sort of trying to get at

24:53

what is America's original sin or what

24:55

would a more equal America look like

24:57

they have an answer to that that

24:59

doesn't involve slavery, doesn't involve race, doesn't

25:01

involve sex discrimination. They have an answer

25:03

that involves abortion. Greater than involves idea.

25:06

So it's a bigger. Remove her fate

25:08

as a sort of bigger move about what

25:10

kind of country we have will kind of

25:12

constitution we have. You know what we the

25:14

people means rates. So. Shortly

25:17

after the Alabama Supreme Court decision,

25:19

the Kentucky State Senate passed a

25:21

bill that would grant pregnant people

25:23

the right to collect child support

25:25

while the child is in utero and

25:27

I have to admit, I don't

25:29

hate the idea of giving the

25:31

mother. Of your child money while she's pregnant.

25:33

Likes being president seems like a

25:35

very stressful experience. It requires a

25:37

lot of care. But

25:40

his policies. That support

25:42

pregnant people hinge on this idea

25:44

of personhood that just seems so

25:46

politically murky. I don't know it,

25:48

just it feels messy to me.

25:51

How do you square? All of this.

25:53

Yeah. I mean, I think so. Complication

25:55

is that. Know there

25:57

is no inevitable conclusion. Thinking

26:00

of the see this as a person. Means.

26:03

Criminalizing staff and suing

26:05

people and making certain.

26:07

For secure off limits. Like that's

26:09

just the way we've evolved in

26:11

the United States. But I think.

26:14

Was. His what's happened in a

26:16

way is that because of a

26:18

so much of the United States

26:20

politics is geared around this idea

26:22

of Us abortion and criminalizing abortion.

26:24

Any recognition of fetal rights and

26:26

any area of the law even

26:28

if it would help pregnant people

26:30

has these kinds of. Additional

26:33

costs. And. That's just unfortunate,

26:35

right? It's sort of a. Sign of how

26:37

dysfunctional our politics are. I mean, I

26:39

think in the short term what most

26:42

progressive proposes just disentangling protection for pregnant

26:44

people from protection for fetuses and other

26:46

words, the same. You get child support

26:49

because you need to defray medical expenses

26:51

because you're pregnant, not because the see

26:53

this as a person and I think

26:55

that's fine. The tricky thing, of course,

26:58

is that there's a subset of Americans

27:00

who think cetus's or persons who don't

27:02

want to criminalize abortion or idea afraid.

27:05

So I mean, I think. Pew Forum

27:07

and Twenty Twenty Two Two to pull

27:09

the town Something like thirty three percent

27:11

of Americans said they thought a fetus

27:13

was a person and that life begins

27:15

at conception is worse and shouldn't be

27:18

restricted or com of heist. So there's

27:20

this sort of weird universe of people

27:22

who say, you know, I don't think

27:24

that this one thing follows from this

27:26

other thing and zero politically homeless rates,

27:28

because so much of the conversation about

27:30

personhood is striving toward criminal abortion laws.

27:33

And if you have something else to

27:35

say about why you think. You'd

27:37

wanna protect fetuses. You're sort of out

27:39

of lox. I think that so

27:42

interesting because. Where. Do they go

27:44

politically If they're sort of in his place

27:46

of like, yeah, I believe it, life begins

27:48

at conception, but yeah, Also, keep

27:50

abortion legal. That. Yeah.

27:52

I don't. I don't know where they go. Yeah, I

27:54

don't either. I mean I think that is helps. It

27:58

also acknowledge they exist. And

28:00

I think it would also probably help. For.

28:03

Progressive To begin talking about personhood and more

28:05

nuanced ways. I mean generally when you hear

28:07

progressive talk about personhood the it's usually to

28:09

say this is just a clump of cells

28:11

are the sort of ridiculous and like I

28:13

think they're so question paid at the beginning.

28:16

You know, can people vote at age twelve?

28:18

The see this as a person. you know

28:20

that these kinds of questions that seem like

28:22

the sort of. Pandora's Box and

28:24

weirdness. That would come from recognizing fetal

28:26

person had like none of that is wrong.

28:29

But. I think been too dismissive of

28:31

the idea that people attach value to

28:33

life in the womb, nurses the experience

28:36

of people for example who have

28:38

miscarriages or stillbirths or he'll people for

28:40

whom the ideas of fetal latest really

28:42

messy and complicated the So I think

28:45

a good starting point would be

28:47

to kind of acknowledge the gray area

28:49

that exists for lot of people. Listen,

28:52

recognize the dagger area shouldn't in doesn't

28:54

have to lead to words criminalizing

28:56

everything. I'm glad that you brought

28:58

up timothy question and the weirdness because

29:00

they do when a circle back to

29:02

that. I mean he raised a lot

29:04

of did questions about. What? A

29:07

legal definition of personhood could possibly

29:09

means including voting age and driving

29:11

age, And just you know, like,

29:13

if I have embryos, can I

29:15

claim them on my taxes? Like

29:17

what is the legal conversation you're

29:19

hearing around things like that? And

29:22

yet, where do you see? Where

29:24

do you see that day. It's.

29:27

Sort of unclear. eight. so. Some

29:29

anti abortion groups are going to try to

29:31

say, well, we're only and are recognized fetal

29:33

personhood for these limited purposes, but that's not

29:36

ultimately what they want, right? If they want

29:38

Fourteenth Amendment personhood, than that raises constitutional questions,

29:40

a fetus and becomes a person for all

29:42

the purposes related to the constitution's And I

29:45

think that's really where. We don't

29:47

know where things are gonna end up because

29:49

I don't think we've seen conservatives really flesh

29:51

out what they mean or what would happen.

29:54

We know that time.

29:56

In utero is so important

29:59

for the. Well being of

30:01

children. Not long ago we talked

30:03

to the economists Catherine and Edwards

30:05

about the cost of childcare. And

30:08

you know she did note that

30:10

early childhood even starts. You know

30:12

back in utero, prenatal care really

30:14

matters. And one pretty that progressive

30:16

have often made of the antiabortion

30:19

movement is that's people who say

30:21

they're pro lies. Aren't. Necessarily

30:23

advocating for things like universal

30:25

prenatal care or advocating for

30:27

policies that would and rich

30:29

a child's life after. It's

30:31

born. How is that seep

30:33

in this conversation? and is it

30:36

shaping the conversation at all? Yes

30:39

and No right? So again, there are some

30:41

people in the movement who are advocating for

30:43

the government to do more. To. Guarantee

30:45

better outcomes for silver and

30:47

birth and. A. Lot of

30:50

them again tend to be affiliated with

30:52

the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, for

30:54

example lobbied for the Pregnant Workers Fairness

30:56

Act which was a law that requires

30:59

and players to accommodate pregnant people's army

31:01

disability which is generally a progressive lot

31:03

was lead and launched by progressive organizations,

31:06

but you did have some. Some.

31:08

Nc worse in groups getting on

31:10

board with that for the most

31:12

part though again because the antiabortion

31:14

movements been affiliated with the Republican

31:16

party, The answer the movement has

31:18

offered as essentially that supporting pregnant

31:20

people to be left to private

31:22

usually christian charities like christian maternity

31:24

homes, pregnancy crisis centers, and the

31:26

like that they things are better

31:28

at handling this than what they

31:30

would view as big government. The

31:32

problem with that as a solution

31:34

is that we've seen on many

31:36

of the states that. Have.

31:38

The strictest abortion bans and the

31:41

most support for crisis pregnancy centers

31:43

or maternity homes are also states

31:45

that have not only the highest

31:47

rates of maternal morbidity and mortality,

31:49

but also unusually poor outcomes for

31:51

children after birth or including infant

31:53

mortality, but really well into a

31:55

child's life. You. been

31:58

doing the media around since the

32:00

Alabama decision. And like, that

32:02

totally makes sense. Because anytime any

32:05

news on abortion comes up, I'm like, I know who I need to

32:07

call. I know who will be able to like explain this,

32:12

go in depth, etc. And I

32:15

want to pose a question to you

32:17

that you asked recently on

32:19

the Ezra Klein show. And it's,

32:22

if our abortion politics don't reflect

32:24

our abortion views, what does

32:26

that tell us about the health of

32:28

democracy? And I'm curious what you think

32:30

all of this does say

32:32

about the health of democracy right now,

32:34

particularly in an election year, like what

32:36

is this reflecting back to us? It

32:39

could reflect one of two possibilities. One, I

32:41

think is that voters have become complacent about

32:43

this issue if they do support abortion rights,

32:46

and could potentially be in for a very rude

32:49

awakening if Donald Trump is elected again, because there

32:51

are a lot of things Trump could do that

32:53

hadn't been options for other Republicans in the past.

32:56

Another possibility is that voters do care,

32:59

and that there are various kind of structural

33:01

obstacles to them making their feelings known. That

33:04

could be the difficulties in voting,

33:06

it could be gerrymandering, it

33:08

could be political polarization, it could

33:11

be even things like campaign

33:13

finance and the influence of money in

33:15

politics. It could be

33:17

state legislative polarization, which has created

33:19

single party states across much of

33:21

the United States. So in

33:24

all of these ways, they're now disconnects

33:26

between what voters want and

33:28

the policies that are actually put in place. And

33:30

I think this is especially clear when we

33:32

look at the discrepancy between ballot initiatives

33:35

when voters are just given a straight

33:37

up and down vote on something, and

33:40

state legislative proposals where

33:42

state lawmakers are sort of the

33:44

intermediaries and often don't feel accountable

33:46

to voters who are polling certain

33:48

ways and holding certain beliefs. So

33:52

I think it's a concerning sign for democracy,

33:54

certainly to say the least. And I think

33:57

that trend is likely to accelerate if Donald Trump wins

33:59

in 2020. 24 because then the

34:01

headlines are all going to say, well, it turns out

34:03

Americans don't actually care about reproductive rights. After

34:05

all, it turns out Donald Trump

34:07

has a mandate to try to introduce a

34:09

backdoor abortion ban or limit access to mifepristone

34:12

because Americans, it turns out that was just

34:14

sort of a blip on the screen and

34:16

they really don't actually find these issues important.

34:19

Yeah, there's this kind of

34:21

existential question I've been thinking

34:23

about quite a bit lately

34:26

since the Dobbs decision. And

34:28

if you take the anti-abortion movements

34:30

argument in good faith, we

34:33

really are dealing with a

34:36

philosophical question about life and when

34:38

life begins. And no one is

34:40

going to come to a consensus

34:42

on that. People believe different things.

34:45

People have different outlooks. I remember

34:47

being in a class back

34:50

in undergrad and it was

34:52

a political theory class and the subject

34:55

of religion came up and the professor

34:57

said, if you believe something, you believe

34:59

it. Like there's no

35:02

like changing minds. There's no like, oh,

35:04

here's science to prove whether

35:07

or not, you know, the existence of

35:09

God, all of these things. Like if

35:11

you believe it, you believe it. There's

35:13

a big difference between believing something and

35:15

knowing something. And when

35:17

we're dealing with beliefs and different

35:19

beliefs, how do you reckon

35:21

with something like that in a

35:23

democratic society? I think

35:25

if there's any kind of common ground,

35:27

I think it has to be around

35:30

the like, how do you enforce it or what

35:33

does it mean? Because

35:35

obviously the question of like, when does life begin?

35:37

It's even messier than that, right? It's like there

35:39

are people who say, well, yeah, like I think

35:41

it's a human life at conception, but I don't

35:43

think it has that life has rights. Or

35:46

I think that life has rights, but I don't think

35:48

it has these rights or equal rights. Or I don't

35:50

think it has rights that lead to criminal law or

35:52

whatever. I mean, there's so many, you know, our disagreements

35:54

on this subject are more

35:56

in number and in kind than

35:58

even we are. often think. So,

36:01

I mean, I would like to think that if

36:04

we disagree on these things, we would

36:06

agree on, for example, it being bad

36:08

that our maternal mortality and morbidity numbers

36:10

put us on par

36:13

with nations much less powerful and rich

36:15

than our own, or that we would care about

36:17

the fact that we don't, it's not a fun place

36:19

to be pregnant. The United States is not a safe place

36:21

to be pregnant. It's not a fun place to be

36:23

pregnant. Our laws don't do a very good job of

36:25

protecting people who are pregnant. Our

36:27

healthcare system doesn't do a particularly good job

36:29

of treating people who are pregnant, particularly when

36:32

those people aren't white. And it would be

36:34

nice. I would like to think everyone would

36:36

be on the same page about that, right?

36:38

Because if you think a fetus

36:40

is a person, it's not a

36:42

win for that person's mother to die because

36:44

they have inadequate healthcare. And

36:46

it's certainly not a win if you

36:48

don't think that fetus is a person

36:51

either. So, I don't

36:53

know how optimistic to be about that because we're

36:55

so divided, but if there were any common ground,

36:57

that would be where I would want to look

36:59

just because in theory, whatever you

37:01

think about personhood, you should look at our

37:03

maternal and mortality and morbidity numbers and be,

37:06

you know, kind of horrified and ashamed and wondering

37:09

what we could do. Mary

37:12

Ziegler, thank you so much for joining us

37:14

on the Weeds. Thanks for having

37:16

me. So,

37:21

back to Timothy's question about

37:23

the legal implications of the Alabama

37:25

ruling. As Mary pointed

37:27

out, there isn't much of a consensus

37:29

within the anti-abortion movement on what quote

37:32

unquote personhood means and how that's

37:34

reflected in the law. The

37:36

reality is though, that we're likely to see

37:38

more laws that attempt to define it

37:40

and more lawsuits in the future. Next

37:44

week, we'll explore another side of this debate.

37:47

Do Americans still have a right to privacy? Privacy

37:50

doesn't only pertain to the right to an

37:52

abortion. In his concurring Dobbs

37:54

opinion, Justice Clarence Thomas signaled That

37:56

the court should rule on other issues related to

37:58

our privacy. The same

38:00

sex marriage contraception. And the

38:03

right to quote engage in private

38:05

consensual. Sexual acts, That's

38:08

all for us today. Thank you to marry

38:10

the girl or for during me and the

38:12

Timothy for the question of you have a

38:14

question in one answered or thoughts on today's

38:16

show Email reads at box. Dot Com

38:18

or producer. Still feel a

38:20

lot for sale Engineer this episode.

38:23

Melissa Hearse fact checked it or

38:25

Editorial Director of Am Home and

38:27

I'm your host. Juggle and hell.

38:30

This podcast is part of box with doesn't

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have a paypal hub of keep it that

38:35

way I going to box that plan stash

38:37

give.