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like, you know, a healthy fear of

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so much more. Listen and subscribe

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wherever you get your podcasts. Hello,

1:16

I'm Sean Lay. Thanks for downloading the BBC's

1:18

World Tonight podcast from Friday, the 28th of

1:20

June. After

1:22

a disastrous performance in his televised debate

1:24

with Donald Trump, our leading Democrats forming

1:27

a human shield around Joe Biden or

1:29

a firing squad. Is Nigel

1:31

Farage right when he complains that the

1:33

apparent exposure by undercover filming of reform

1:36

UK supporters as racist and homophobic was

1:38

a complete and total setup? Turkey

1:40

seeks EU protection for its beef and

1:43

lamb kebabs. Germany cries foul in defence

1:45

of kebabs of veal. Which country

1:47

is the Don of Donne kebabs?

1:50

And what's it like to fight a

1:52

general election without the resources of the

1:54

big parties? Or the attention of the

1:56

media? The leaders of the SDP, RejoinEU

1:59

and the campaign... coordinator for the Workers Party

2:01

debate. We're going to

2:03

begin with the events in

2:06

the British general election during the course of

2:08

today. Rishi Sunak has said

2:10

he was hurt and angry after

2:12

Channel 4 News broadcast undercover filming

2:15

last night featuring a volunteer for

2:17

Nigel Farage's Reform UK using

2:19

a racial slur against him. When

2:22

my two daughters have to see

2:24

and hear Reform people who campaign for

2:26

Nigel Farage calling me an effing ****,

2:30

it hurts and it makes me angry and

2:32

I think he has some questions to answer.

2:34

And I don't repeat those words lightly, I do

2:38

so deliberately because this is too

2:40

important not to call out clearly

2:42

for what it is. By

2:45

happy coincidence Nigel Farage was in Birmingham

2:47

this evening along with the co-leader of

2:49

the Green Party for question time. Our

2:51

political correspondent Hannah Miller is there. Hannah

2:54

did Mr Farage expand on his earlier

2:56

expressed claim that the undercover investigation by

2:58

Channel 4 was in some way a

3:00

stitch up? I

3:03

mean really what you heard tonight

3:05

was Nigel Farage doubling down on

3:07

that claim that this report was

3:09

something of a stitch up. Andrew

3:11

Parker is an actor

3:13

and Nigel Farage clearly trying to

3:15

claim that therefore there's some kind

3:17

of thing that's gone on here

3:20

to make his party look worse

3:22

than he believes it

3:24

is. Channel 4 we should say

3:26

stand by their journalism, they say they

3:28

met Andrew Parker who made those comments

3:31

for the first time when they went

3:33

out canvassing with their undercover reporter but

3:35

we've heard Nigel Farage throughout today saying

3:37

that he believes this was a stitch

3:39

up tonight. He made it very clear he's

3:41

not going to apologise. He

3:44

said I promise you that what happened is

3:47

a set up. This is what Nigel Farage

3:49

said about Andrew Parker himself. What

3:51

I have no doubt about is this guy was

3:53

in his alter ego. I've even found now on

3:56

TikTok this guy doing sort of Alf

3:58

Garnet type stuff. This was a comedy

4:01

act, it was designed to hurt us,

4:03

and sadly, sadly, some people believe

4:05

it. Let me promise you. So who do you

4:07

think would have done this, Nigel Farage? I want

4:09

nothing to do with people like him, and he

4:11

has nothing to do with us. It's

4:14

worth saying some of those filmed making

4:16

homophobic comments were known to Farage closer

4:19

to him. He has said that they

4:21

won't be involved in his campaign going

4:23

forward. They, of course, were canvases, but

4:27

there has also been difficult questions

4:29

for Reform UK about some of

4:31

their candidates, and he was asked

4:33

for quite some time tonight at

4:35

the Question Time special about people

4:37

who have made racist remarks and

4:39

not been disowned by the party.

4:41

At one stage, he appeared to

4:43

distance himself live on air from

4:45

one of the candidates. Let's just

4:47

take a listen to that. Why

4:50

are they still standing as your candidate? I

4:52

inherited a start-up party. Remember, I've been doing

4:55

this. Why are they still standing as your

4:57

candidates? Well, they're not. They've been disowned. In

4:59

most cases, they've been disowned. People

5:01

like Lily from... Honestly, what he said

5:04

is criminal. So why is it your candidate?

5:06

I have no idea why this man... You

5:09

are Lily from the London

5:11

UK! I wasn't... You are now. I

5:13

inherited this. It was a start-up party.

5:15

I paid a professional London vetting company

5:17

to weed this out. The work wasn't

5:20

done. I mean, you

5:22

heard the laughter from the audience there.

5:24

We have heard that argument several times

5:26

from Nigel Farage's that this

5:28

issue of candidates has repeatedly come up over

5:30

the last few weeks. The question on it,

5:32

really, I think, is whether people believe that.

5:35

It is true that he took up the

5:37

leadership after the election had been called. Or

5:39

do people look at this and think, well,

5:41

he was involved in founding Reform UK and

5:43

is in some way responsible for the culture

5:45

of the party in that sense? And that

5:48

is very much a question for people to

5:50

decide and for voters to decide as they

5:52

think about how to vote. He

5:54

was second up this evening because he was

5:56

preceded by half an hour of questions from

5:59

the audience to age. Andrew M. Ramsey, co-leader

6:01

of the Green Party of England and Wales,

6:03

and he too had a bit of a

6:05

sticky exchange with Fiona Bruce over

6:08

the views of some of his party's candidates. Yeah,

6:11

it's interesting, isn't it? The two smaller parties

6:13

both facing questions about their candidates and that

6:15

selection process as they try to stand people

6:18

all across the country. The

6:20

Green Party have had issues

6:22

with some candidates. Some were

6:24

withdrawn before the closure of

6:27

the deadline for ballots. Others

6:29

are still on the ballot

6:31

paper with Green Party next to their name

6:33

and they were asked, Adrian Ramsey was asked

6:35

about that, about

6:37

the views of certain people who are

6:39

standing for the Green Party. It's

6:42

just under a week now to the election. These

6:44

three people with the views that they

6:46

have expressed reportedly online, hoping the Royal

6:48

Navy vessels sink, comparing to

6:51

mass the French resistance, whatever your

6:53

process is, I've been reading about

6:55

these people for some time, they are going

6:57

to go ahead next

6:59

Thursday in your name

7:02

and you're happy with that. I

7:04

can't comment on what all 574 candidates across

7:06

the country are standing and I'm not familiar

7:08

with those three. What I can say is

7:10

that if issues have been raised, they're being

7:13

investigated internally, there have been a number of

7:15

occasions where candidates have been asked to take

7:17

down posts and have done so and there

7:19

have been other cases where candidates have been

7:22

asked to withdraw or have been withdrawn. The

7:25

other main area where the Green Party's Adrian

7:27

Ramsey faced a challenge tonight was about scrapping

7:30

petrol and diesel cars by 2035, being

7:33

asked how the party intends to

7:35

recompense people for that and

7:37

struggling to some extent to give a

7:39

clear answer on that. But clearly tonight

7:41

we had two parties who are not

7:43

about, their leaders are not about to

7:45

become the next Prime Minister or anything

7:47

like that, but they both want influence

7:49

and that's what tonight was really

7:51

about in a sense, reform of

7:53

course wanting to influence particularly the

7:56

direction of the Conservative Party, the Greens

7:58

hoping to take some votes from Labour.

8:00

and if Labour form a government hoping

8:02

to be able to influence their policies

8:04

there. It was really about that kind

8:06

of influence going forward that we heard

8:08

tonight. Hannah Miller in Birmingham, thank you

8:10

very much. David Bull is the co-deputy

8:12

leader of Reform UK. He's in the

8:14

spin room at the Question Time debate

8:16

interpreting and explaining to journalists what Nigel

8:18

Farage meant. Mr Bull, thank you very

8:20

much for staying on for

8:22

fully over an hour after it all finished to

8:25

talk to us this evening. We're grateful to you.

8:28

We need to sort of get as far as we can

8:30

with this situation of

8:32

the remarks that were

8:34

made by these two people filmed by

8:36

Channel 4 News. Just before we deal

8:39

with the circumstances, what

8:41

would you say to Rishi Sunak's daughters

8:44

if you had the opportunity to speak

8:46

to them about those remarks which the

8:48

Prime Minister found so deeply offensive? Well

8:52

it's absolutely outrageous isn't it? The fact is

8:54

I will not tolerate any homophobia, racism, Islamophobia

8:56

or anything like that. Neither will Nigel, neither

8:58

will Richard and of course if we find

9:01

out and when we find out those people

9:03

exist and they they support those views they're

9:05

out of the party. Let me be really

9:08

clear. So there's no ifs or buts. No,

9:10

no, no, let me just be really clear.

9:13

No, no, no, I will give you the chance to but

9:15

can I just get clarity from what you were saying. Once

9:18

you've identified who they are, if they are members

9:20

of the party they will be expelled. No ifs,

9:22

no buts. Correct. Thank you.

9:24

100%. What were you going to go on to say? I

9:27

was just going to say look

9:29

this this chat was a supporter

9:31

of the party. Like all political

9:33

parties we don't a vet supporters

9:35

so he turned up and delivered

9:38

leaflets and started two canvas and

9:40

those comments are absolutely outrageous. There

9:42

are lots of questions being asked

9:44

about who this man was and

9:46

what was his modus operandi. We

9:48

believe and we now know he

9:50

is an actor. He also specialises

9:52

in surveillance and undercover work. There

9:56

were two people though who were filmed. I

10:01

will let you answer, but I just want to be clear

10:03

about this. You were talking about one person, the person who

10:05

made the remark about the Prime Minister.

10:08

Let me just finish that. No,

10:10

I'm sorry, I'm going to respectfully

10:12

ask you to complete the question.

10:14

The other person made a pretty

10:16

offensive remark about the Pride logo

10:18

being displayed by a police car

10:21

saying that this was, I think he used

10:23

the word, degenerate. You're gay yourself and

10:25

you've said you won't explore homophobia. So let's

10:28

leave Mr. Parker aside because you were trying

10:30

to establish his antecedents. What do you know

10:32

about this other man? Well,

10:34

I actually have an issue with police cars having

10:36

the Pride flag as well. I don't think it's

10:38

appropriate. But not because you think it's degenerate. No,

10:42

of course it isn't. Of course it isn't. And

10:44

actually I would say in our office, about half

10:46

the people who work for us are gay in

10:48

the main office. So that is not an issue.

10:50

Look, these two people were caught on camera. What

10:53

they said was unacceptable and they have been asked

10:55

to leave the party, which they have. Look, the

10:57

point is, the reason I'm in the leadership team

10:59

is because I and Richard and Nigel will not

11:01

tolerate any of this. Let me be also very

11:03

clear. The reason that we're getting all

11:06

this flack is because we are doing so well.

11:08

The latest poll that came out tonight shows that

11:10

we are now at 21%. We

11:13

are three points ahead of the Conservative Party.

11:15

Now, Nigel had quite a rough ride tonight,

11:17

I thought, but it was a metropolitan audience.

11:19

When you go around the country, you hear something quite

11:21

different. Birmingham, a metro school, so through all over the

11:23

West Midlands? It is. Well,

11:27

Birmingham is a metropolitan area. It's the largest

11:29

city, but it's quite a diverse part of

11:31

the country, isn't it? Well,

11:34

I suggest you get out a bit more and go

11:36

around the country. If you go to rural areas of

11:38

this country, people are absolutely sick and tired of what

11:40

is going on in this country. Nothing works in this

11:42

country. You can't see a

11:44

GP, the schools, you can't get your kids

11:47

into schools, there's no transport infrastructure. Adrian Ramsey

11:49

made some very interesting comments, for example, about

11:51

how we decarbonise. He

11:53

mentioned Suffolk. I live in Suffolk. There are

11:55

no buses, you can't do it. He had

11:57

no answers about cars. When

12:00

you talk to people on the street, they

12:02

are not interested in net zero. It is

12:04

not top of the priority list. David Bull,

12:06

co-deputy leader of Reform UK, thank you very

12:08

much for being with us. We'll be hearing

12:10

more about the net zero question a little

12:13

later when we hear from three smaller parties

12:15

who are discussing some of the issues in

12:17

the general election campaign. Now, did

12:19

last night's debate performance by Joe

12:21

Biden against Donald Trump vindicate the

12:23

73% of Democrats, fully 86% of

12:27

Americans, who in March told Ipsos for

12:29

ABC that Joe Biden is too old

12:31

to serve another term as president of

12:33

the United States. The evening after the

12:35

night before, Joe Biden has held an

12:38

event in Raleigh in North Carolina to

12:40

shore up his supporters. Or perhaps

12:42

it was the other way around. I

12:44

don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak

12:46

as smoothly as I used to. I

12:48

don't debate as well as I used to.

12:51

Well, I know what I do know. I know

12:54

how to tell the truth. I

13:01

know. I know. I

13:04

know right from wrong. I

13:09

know how to do this job. I

13:12

know how to get things done. I

13:16

know like millions of Americans know, when

13:18

you get knocked down, you get back up. Cue

13:22

a burst of Chumbawamba. Ahead of President

13:25

Biden's address, the BBC's North America correspondent,

13:27

Nomi Iqbal, tested the mood among the

13:29

activists. Being 77 years of age myself, I

13:34

don't see any reason why he's

13:36

still very good as a

13:38

president. And most of the work that

13:40

you do is with them with advisors.

13:43

So there's no reason to step aside

13:45

simply because he's got a stutter. President

13:47

Biden, look at his record. We

13:50

should not judge him based

13:53

on one, one

13:57

and a half hour debate. He

13:59

was clearly... not feeling best. We all

14:01

have our bad days. Well

14:03

his age is a concern.

14:06

Yes, I would like to

14:08

see a younger candidate, but it's not

14:11

possible right now. I did watch the

14:13

debate last night. Maybe not our finest

14:15

moment, maybe not the strongest debate I've

14:17

ever seen, but it doesn't mean that

14:19

today we need to second guess ourselves.

14:22

He didn't surpass our expectations,

14:24

I think, most people expectations, but we

14:26

got to remember we're not just voting

14:28

for the president, we're voting for the

14:30

administration, we're voting for our values, and

14:32

Donald Trump doesn't support us. That's

14:35

the view in Rawley. The

14:39

correspondence for the BBC Nomia Iqbal is still there. Nomia, the

14:43

activists rallying to the Biden flag,

14:45

is that mood shared among senior members

14:48

of the party? It's

14:50

split at the moment. I mean there's various

14:52

reports that strategists

14:54

close to Democratic presidential

14:56

candidates, potential ones, are

14:58

now saying that they're

15:00

being bombarded with messages,

15:02

and please for

15:04

them to step forward as an alternative to Biden.

15:07

We're also hearing that major Democratic

15:09

donors are saying that it's time for

15:11

his presidency to end. But President

15:13

Biden's old boss, the former President Barack Obama, still

15:16

one of the most popular figures in the party,

15:18

he weighed in, and he said

15:20

bad debate nights happened. Trust me, I know,

15:22

just referring to his own tough debate when

15:24

he was up against the

15:26

Republican Mitt Romney in 2012. He was, you

15:29

know, criticised for appearing checked out, and of course

15:31

he went on to beat Romney in

15:33

November, and I think the fact that Mr Obama

15:35

has come out to endorse Mr

15:37

Biden and praise him is proof that actually

15:40

there are still a lot of key members

15:42

in the Democratic Party who think that Mr

15:44

Biden should still be their man. Nomia Iqbal,

15:46

in Rawley, thank you very much. Of course

15:49

there is a man and a woman on

15:51

the Democrat ticket, this time as last time,

15:53

the Vice President Kamala Harris is a lot

15:55

younger than the President and would be in

15:57

a position to step forward were a vacancy

16:00

to a rise. It's the last night we

16:02

spoke to Christine Pelosi, a strategist for the

16:04

Democrats and elected member of the party's Executive

16:06

Committee in California. She joins us again and

16:09

also with us is Amanda Renteria, Political Director

16:11

of Hillary Clinton's 2016

16:13

Democratic campaign. Lovely to have you both

16:16

with us, not withstanding the circumstances which

16:18

are difficult for your party right now.

16:20

Amanda Renteria, I wonder

16:23

what you made of last night's performance.

16:25

I mentioned those poll figures with

16:28

that background, anything less

16:31

than a sparkling scintillating performance

16:33

was going to reflect badly on

16:35

the President, wasn't he? Well, there's

16:37

no doubt he had a tough

16:39

start to that debate, but

16:42

the underlying foundational messages that

16:44

are out there of who he's fighting for,

16:46

that he has your back, that he tells

16:48

the truth are there, not only for

16:51

him as a candidate, but also for our party.

16:53

And so it is important as we wake up

16:55

the next morning and he gets back on that

16:58

stage and all the surrogates get involved and engaged,

17:00

it's incredibly important to be talking about

17:03

fundamentally what is the Democratic Party's vision, what

17:05

are candidates, not just the President, but all

17:07

the way down ballot, how are they going

17:09

to make sure that they are taking care

17:11

of families, making sure that people have what

17:13

they need in our country? That's

17:16

a big takeaway. That's an admirable defense

17:18

of the party's position. It

17:20

doesn't really explain

17:22

the problem that the President has

17:25

and it's been identified by multiple

17:27

observers over the last few months

17:29

and it's been highlighted by those

17:31

polling figures that Americans,

17:33

the majority of Americans, do not

17:35

believe that the President is capable

17:37

of serving another four years. In

17:39

what way did the performance

17:41

last night answer that belief of voters?

17:44

Well, it certainly didn't give voters confidence

17:46

and I think that's what we're waiting

17:48

for over these next couple of days

17:50

is how does this shake

17:52

out? Not everybody watches the debate like I

17:55

do in every single second and analyzes it.

17:57

Sure, but you'll have looked, you'll have seen

17:59

the network. today, they've been replaying the clips

18:01

over and over again. In other words, even

18:04

though he gave some perfectly decent answers, even

18:07

though people have pointed out President

18:09

Trump told some untruths, to put

18:11

it mildly, the clips that

18:13

keep replaying are the ones of him stumbling,

18:15

of him losing his thread, of him getting

18:17

distracted and confused. Yeah, that's true. And what

18:19

you have on a campaign is every single

18:21

day is a fight. And

18:24

we really don't know over these next couple

18:26

of days what voters are saying, what middle

18:28

of the road voters are saying, even more

18:30

importantly, and that's going to come out as

18:32

this campaign moves along. He did have a

18:35

good day today, but I think there is

18:37

a lot of caution and worry. And that's

18:39

the important part for the Democratic Party to

18:41

really start considering how much do they have

18:43

to prepare? Is there a plan B? But

18:45

for now, there's no need to be hasty

18:48

and move quickly, but you do need to

18:50

be prepared for what if we have another

18:52

stumble? What if there is something like that?

18:54

That really did get put on the table,

18:56

unfortunately. Christine Pelosi, you

18:59

were fairly sanguine before the debate last night.

19:01

How are you feeling now? Well,

19:04

I think Trump had a bad

19:06

debate and I think Biden's was worse.

19:08

I think there's no sugarcoating it, as

19:11

my friend, Amanda Renteria said. Hello,

19:13

Amanda. And I

19:15

think we're all pretty

19:17

clear. He had a bad performance, but I

19:19

also want to make clear that

19:22

when you stumble, you get back up. That's

19:25

the clip you played. That's the clip that

19:27

heartens us. Here are the facts. I've

19:29

been on the DNC as an elected member since

19:32

the 90s. In 2010, Barack Obama should

19:34

step down and

19:39

let Hillary run in 2012. In

19:41

2012, Barack Obama blew his

19:43

first debate against Mitt Romney. In 2016, it

19:46

was Hillary Clinton was too over prepared

19:48

to be president. 2018, they finished Nancy

19:50

Pelosi's too old to be speaker after

19:53

she had won the House back for

19:55

the Democrats. Your mom, just in case

19:57

people didn't realize. Yeah. AKA my mother

19:59

and my congresswoman. But 2022, a veteran

20:02

has a stroke, they say we're going to

20:04

lose the Senate. So we have seen this

20:06

movie over and over and over again. And

20:08

I think what we have to do is

20:10

put the president, and this is what I've communicated

20:13

to the leadership of the DNC, we

20:15

want to see the president on TV.

20:17

We want to see the president in

20:20

a back and forth, in press

20:22

conferences and interviews, office rallies. Can

20:25

I offer an observation? Can I

20:27

offer an observation? With the honorable exception

20:29

of your mother, every other one

20:31

of those people you've quoted was a lot younger

20:33

than President Biden. In other words, they had the

20:35

advantage to be able to say, all right, I'm

20:37

not very well at the moment, but I can

20:39

bounce back. The doubt that appears

20:42

to be in the minds, not just

20:44

of Republican voters and of on-align voters,

20:46

but even Democrats underlined by yesterday, you

20:48

would surely acknowledge, is that he

20:50

can't bounce back in the way that a younger

20:52

man or woman could. Well, of

20:54

course he can't bounce back the

20:56

way younger Joe Biden did from

20:59

the tragedies in his own life. But

21:01

the question is, can he still lead

21:03

this country? And we believe that he

21:05

can. And he showed Americans

21:07

the vigor of that today. Is it

21:09

possible? I think he also has to show vigor

21:12

under classic damnation, which I think was Amanda's

21:14

point as well. Is it possible, one

21:16

word answer, is it possible that he could

21:18

decide, as Lyndon Johnson did in 1968, actually,

21:20

I need to make way for somebody else?

21:24

No. No. I

21:26

mean, is it humanly possible anyone can make any

21:28

decision, but not on the basis of these facts?

21:30

Amanda? Yeah, I think, I mean, anyone, I agree

21:32

with Christine, anyone can make that decision. I think

21:35

you really do have to look at what the

21:37

numbers are telling you out there. And

21:39

I think Biden well knows that he has got to

21:41

make sure that he is leading a party so that

21:43

everyone down ballot can also win. And I think what

21:45

everyone woke up with today in the Democratic Party is

21:47

they got to do their part to a ballot

21:50

to make sure the vision of the Democratic

21:52

Party is out there. Amanda Renterio, Christine

21:54

Pelosi, apologize for cutting you short. We've been

21:56

up against it tonight. Thank you both very

21:59

much for giving. issue of time. I should

22:01

just say in passing that when CBS asked Nancy

22:03

Pelosi about calls from some Democrats and Mr Biden

22:05

should be replaced, she said, I'll make a statement

22:07

about this, but not right

22:09

now. Now let's move

22:12

on to a minor diplomatic dispute that

22:14

could turn out to be a lot

22:16

bigger as the days progress. It's over

22:18

the humble kebab. German kebab

22:20

makers are pushing back against a Turkish request

22:22

to grant EU protection to their version of

22:24

the donor kebab, risking a diplomatic spat over

22:27

the dish. Perhaps it's the fault of President

22:29

Steinmeier who paid a recent visit to Istanbul

22:31

with a pillar of donor meat weighing 60

22:34

kilograms in the cargo hold of his

22:36

plane, or perhaps President Erdogan, never shy

22:38

of rallying nationalists for the flag as

22:40

part of his muscular diplomacy. Which

22:43

country then is the Don of the

22:45

donor kebab? I've been speaking to two

22:47

enthusiasts, Ibrahim Dogus, founder of the British

22:50

Kabab Awards, and the German sociologist Ebahad

22:52

Zaidal, author of two books on the

22:54

cultural history of donor, yes two books.

22:56

But first I asked Ibrahim Dogus what

22:59

he thought lay behind Turkey's kebab power

23:01

grab. I think the

23:03

thinking behind this is more about donor becoming

23:05

so popular across Europe and across the world

23:07

in a way, and Turkey

23:09

feeling that it is their responsibility

23:11

to make sure that the cultural

23:14

importance of donor kebab for the

23:16

communities in Turkey is protected. Ebahad,

23:18

it sounds perfectly reasonable when it's

23:20

put like that, doesn't it? Dona

23:22

kebab originated in the Ottoman Empire.

23:24

It only came to Germany with

23:26

Turkish migrants in the 1970s. Isn't

23:29

it fair enough for the Turkish

23:31

version to be protected? No,

23:34

it's not fair enough. The German

23:36

donor is different and it's a

23:38

development started by Turkish immigrants in

23:40

Germany about 50 years ago, and

23:43

it's a new edition of the donor.

23:45

The donor kebab as a donor sandwich

23:47

is not originated in Turkey because in

23:49

Turkey you usually in the past ate

23:52

the donor kebab at a plate in

23:54

a restaurant and not standing in the

23:56

street. And that's a new development came

23:58

from Germany and Spain. spread all over

24:00

Europe. Ibrahim Dogus, there is an

24:03

argument for saying, isn't there, that different

24:06

immigrant communities, when they bring their national

24:08

dishes with them in

24:10

their new countries, they change them.

24:12

They make them a bit different.

24:14

And that difference is something

24:16

to celebrate, not something to suppress. Of course.

24:19

I mean, I get that. Ingredients

24:21

change, products change, the way we

24:24

do things change. So true, but

24:26

it originates from the country and

24:28

it was innovated by communities from

24:30

Turkey. So it only makes sense

24:33

for the country to apply for

24:35

this protected status. But I would

24:37

be happier if Turkey can consult

24:39

Germany, Britain and many other countries

24:41

who now have a claim over

24:44

the product because it is part

24:46

of all our cultures now. Eberhard,

24:48

what is it you in

24:51

Germany fear losing if the European

24:53

Commission were to accept this proposal

24:55

which has been made via the

24:57

Turkish government? For example,

24:59

most of the donor K-babs could not

25:01

call them donor because in Germany, most

25:04

of the donor K-babs made out of

25:06

real, not of beef. And this Turkish

25:08

company wants that every donor has to

25:10

be made out of beef and lamb.

25:12

The German donor is different from the

25:14

Turkish donor. So what's the problem? Ibrahim

25:17

Douglass, what is the problem? The

25:19

clue is in the name of the

25:22

dish. The name is donor K-bab. Donor

25:25

is a word in Turkish, which

25:27

means rotating. It is important

25:29

for us to find a way to make

25:31

this a product, a dish that

25:33

is belong to all of us culturally. But

25:36

I do not see a problem in

25:38

Turkish government trying to get protected status

25:41

for this product. You don't think it's

25:43

politics? I don't think it's

25:45

politics in a way because we in

25:47

Britain, we do the best donor K-bab

25:49

in the whole world, better than Germany,

25:51

better than Turkey. We are

25:53

not trying to get a protected status

25:56

for the dish as a British product

25:58

because we know where it's originating from.

26:00

from. Same thing in Germany. Germany should

26:02

be able to work with Turkish authorities

26:05

and raise their concerns or

26:07

issues, but they shouldn't see no

26:09

harm in Turkey trying to

26:12

protect or apply

26:15

for a protected status for the Durek enough.

26:18

Ibrahim is saying it shouldn't really be a problem,

26:20

yet judging by the newspapers in Germany

26:23

it really is a big problem. People

26:25

are feeling that it threatens them. Can

26:27

you explain why? Because

26:29

we have summer now and we have to talk

26:31

about something. The football is still going

26:33

on. Some

26:36

problems, if there are no problems. Look,

26:39

no hamburger. Like

26:41

the name says, it's originated in Germany.

26:43

But we don't try to make a

26:46

European law that say a hamburger sold

26:48

at McDonald's or Burger King or in

26:50

other places should we have these ingredients.

26:52

The Durek keep up spread all over

26:55

the world, not from Turkey, from Germany.

26:58

Let me ask you finally, then, on that basis

27:00

and in the spirit of compromise, Ebrahim, would you

27:02

eat a British donut

27:04

kebab? I ate my

27:06

first donut kebab in London in

27:08

1976 as a student. That

27:10

was my first donut kebab. Ibrahim, would

27:12

you eat a German donut kebab, even

27:14

if it's made of veal? I had

27:16

veal kebabs in Germany. They're delicious, they're

27:18

tasty. People who are working in the

27:20

industry within Germany are doing a great

27:22

job. No questions about that. But what

27:25

I would do is I would urge

27:27

British governors to jump in and say

27:29

no, it's not German, it's not Turkish,

27:31

it's British. Ebrahim

27:33

Douglass and Ebrahim Zaidel resolving that diplomatic

27:35

dispute. Now, back to the general election,

27:37

three political parties you won't have heard

27:40

much from on air, but each of

27:42

whom is fielding multiple candidates. We thought

27:44

you should hear from them. William Cluston,

27:46

leader of the Social Democrats, the SDP,

27:48

Brendan Donnelly, leader of the Rejoin EU

27:50

party, and first, Hoz Shafi, national campaign

27:53

coordinator for the Workers Party of Britain.

27:55

He's a member of a small, relatively

27:57

new party. It was launched by George

27:59

Callaway. way, how does the Workers Party

28:01

manage a campaign when it's standing in

28:03

just a quarter of constituencies? We

28:06

only get the reach that we

28:08

get through Twitter, Facebook and places

28:11

like that. But social media does

28:13

not reach into people's homes. I

28:15

mean, there is a political group

28:17

of people that have already decided what they're

28:20

going to vote. Those people, when they receive

28:22

my tweet, are not going to change their

28:24

mind. There's a rather encouraging there, that we're

28:26

joining you, party, by the number of young

28:28

people who are engaging with us on social

28:31

media. And that corresponds to the demographic of

28:33

younger people who on the whole are more

28:35

likely to want to rejoin. William Cluesser, the

28:37

SDP, where do you sit in this view

28:40

of social media? Is it useful? Is it

28:42

an opportunity to change people's minds? Or is

28:44

it kind of peripheral to the main campaign,

28:46

which is still dominated by the

28:48

newspapers and perhaps more importantly, these days

28:51

by television? I look at it

28:53

the other way, really. I think we do a

28:55

lot of work on political Twitter. We're very active

28:57

there. And we have been for a long time

28:59

on Facebook. And our YouTube channel is well patronized.

29:01

But really, the general election is an

29:03

opportunity for us to get much further than that. And

29:05

again, on the TV channels that I appear

29:08

on reasonably regularly, which is GB news

29:10

and talk TV, the listeners and

29:12

the viewers of those channels know us really.

29:14

So this has been a great opportunity for

29:16

us to get further. And actually, I

29:18

was very pleased to see

29:20

the BBC turn up at the SDP's

29:22

National Manifesto launch a couple of weeks

29:24

ago and lead to the Working Men's

29:26

Club. That took us to another

29:28

dimension. But once in five weeks, I

29:30

just wonder if that feels to you

29:32

like fair coverage. Well, I

29:34

think we'd always want more. I think it's I

29:37

mean, I share the irritation of the other two

29:39

guests on this piece. Hodgehaffi. I just want to

29:41

say my experience for my party has been the

29:44

manifesto launch was the only time

29:46

that the BBC, ITV, Sky

29:50

and GB News came over and they

29:52

all gave well, GB News gave a

29:54

live audience to George

29:56

like live, call it what you

29:58

will. It was like five minutes of trying to attack

30:01

him. But other than that, we've

30:04

not been on GB news. We've not

30:06

been on talk. I was on

30:08

Politics Live for four minutes

30:10

and two seconds. And after four

30:12

minutes and two seconds, I was basically

30:14

asked to leave and I did leave because that's

30:16

what happens when you're asked to leave. And

30:20

I just don't think that's fair. My picture

30:22

is not so much not being coverage of

30:24

the Rejoin EU Party as they're not being

30:26

coverage of the Rejoin EU issue. And

30:29

that reflects the, in my view,

30:31

rather limited bubble in

30:33

which the political class exists

30:35

in co-symbiosis, if you like,

30:37

with its journalistic reflectors. It's

30:40

disgraceful that when more than 50% of

30:42

British opinion apparently, consistently in opinion polls,

30:45

wants to rejoin the European Union, that's

30:47

not something which is being offered by

30:49

any party seriously. Right, let's talk about

30:51

issues. The first one is

30:54

relations with Europe in so far as

30:56

it affects things like the economy and

30:59

also migration. Hoshafi?

31:02

So I was going to push back a little bit

31:04

if I can with Brendan, to do with Brexit and

31:06

to do with where we are as a country today.

31:09

We are four years, five years away from when

31:11

Brexit actually took place and we had a reconfirmation

31:13

of the will of the people in 2019 in

31:15

the general election

31:18

that Boris Johnson won

31:20

with a massive majority. And

31:23

my position as a remainer is

31:25

that I respect democracy. We

31:27

have to give the opportunity for Brexit to

31:30

whatever form it's going to take in

31:32

the end to be allowed to become what it's

31:34

going to become. If it does not work, and

31:36

it's going to need more than four or five

31:39

years for this because it could take 10 years,

31:42

then we have to give the opportunity for

31:44

those people who did vote for it. And

31:46

the difference now compared to what

31:48

it was back then is, you know, it's

31:50

irrelevant. Before I bring Brendan in,

31:52

I just want to bring William in at that

31:55

point. What's the STP position of this? Because Europe

31:57

was one of the issues in which the founders of

32:00

the STP were. broke with the Labour Party. I know

32:02

that's a long time ago and there's a lot of

32:04

water flowed under a lot of bridges since then. But

32:06

are you still essentially a pro-European party? We're

32:08

a pro-European party, but we're not a

32:11

pro-EU party. Our position has tracked that

32:13

of Lord Owen actually.

32:15

We're strongly in favour of

32:17

Brexit. I think if you profess

32:19

social democracy as political philosophy, you

32:22

can't join a trade cartel

32:24

which prevents the very thing that you profess

32:26

to want to implement. I would ask people,

32:29

if your state can't keep a steelworks open

32:31

under the rules, then you're not living in

32:33

a democracy. So I take a sort of

32:35

Benite, sure I'd be on this. Good for

32:38

you. Well, I wouldn't necessarily agree

32:40

with that. And I don't think most people in

32:42

the Rejoin EU party would either. What we'd say

32:44

is that every time you have a general election,

32:46

democracy is on the table again. People can change

32:48

their minds. And it's up to them when they

32:50

change their minds. I think it's wholly arbitrary to

32:53

say you've got to wait for 10 or 20

32:55

or 30 years before you

32:57

know where the Brexit has worked. Right, let's talk

32:59

about one other issue that has had a lot

33:01

of attention, and that's migration. Hoz,

33:04

from the point of view of the Workers'

33:06

Party, it's clearly been a source of a

33:08

lot of unease to people in

33:10

traditional working-class jobs, the

33:13

impact of migration. What's your party's

33:15

position on that now? Anyone

33:17

who's in the country right now is

33:19

welcome to stay here. Anyone who's here and

33:22

has basically got their paperwork sorted out, and

33:25

even if they haven't got their paperwork sorted out and are here

33:27

right now because they've got on a boat and whatever else, we

33:30

draw a line and that's it. That's who's here.

33:32

What we want to do is we don't want

33:34

to have all of these boats coming over with

33:36

all these people on it. And what we need

33:38

to do is basically think about what

33:40

are these people doing when they come here?

33:42

If they actually contribute to our civil society,

33:44

if they help build our country into a

33:46

better place, then I'm happy for them to

33:48

be here. Are they suppressing wages, in your

33:50

view? A hundred percent, because when

33:53

you've got cheap labour here, and it means

33:55

big business gets away with paying

33:57

people not the right amount of money. I

34:01

largely agree with Shafi there. I think he's

34:03

broadly right. There's no doubt at all that

34:06

mass immigration has been used

34:08

over many, many years as a drug

34:10

to plug short term problems in a dysfunctional

34:13

labor market in the UK. It's

34:16

also discouraged training. When we were

34:18

in the single market

34:20

and freedom movement, there was no incentive for

34:22

British employers or government to train anyone because

34:24

you could rely on a massive pool of

34:26

labor. But there's a

34:28

further thing, which is culture. And

34:31

people won't talk about the massive demographic

34:34

social changes that have happened. Most

34:37

British people agree with the STP on

34:39

this, we need to take a break,

34:41

have a pause, probably a generational long

34:43

pause to get to know each other.

34:46

Brendan Donnelly of Rejoin EU. I mean,

34:48

you're very clear that you will manifest

34:50

the resumption of EU freedom of movement

34:52

would swiftly alleviate the serious shortage of

34:54

essential and able workers in uncongenial and

34:56

low paid sectors. Absolutely right. In the

34:58

present stage of the British economy, we

35:01

do need migration. Now I'm not at

35:03

all against better training and better wages

35:05

and all sorts of things to do

35:07

in order to improve the situation. But

35:09

at the moment, we do need migration.

35:11

And the migration model of freedom of

35:13

movement was a much better one for

35:15

this country than the present migration model,

35:18

which may well lead to people staying

35:20

indefinitely in this country and perfectly legitimately

35:22

then calling on social security later in

35:24

lives and the National Health Service. Also,

35:27

I think we mustn't confuse the question

35:29

of legal migration with potentially illegal migration.

35:31

And then there's another question of people

35:34

seeking asylum. And those three are often

35:36

run together. The obvious question to ask

35:38

all of you is, do you

35:41

believe that we are moving away

35:43

from a kind of two party

35:45

duopoly? So I think

35:47

there's no doubt at all. The depth of

35:49

the support for these establishment parties is very

35:52

weak. I'll make a prediction here. I

35:54

think by the end of the decade, people will

35:56

be crying out for a change in the voting system to

35:58

allow a new entrance into the country. this rotten

36:01

political system. Hozs, Chafee?

36:04

1997, we had Labour for 13 or 14 years. We've

36:07

had Tories from 2010 to 224. It's

36:11

the same two parties doing exactly the same

36:13

thing. And it's not helping people. The

36:15

metric for me that upsets me more than anything

36:17

else is that we're in the 30 year, highest

36:21

levels of poverty in our country. The gap

36:23

between the rich and the poor has never

36:25

been as wide as it is. And I

36:27

can't see any difference with Labour in charge

36:29

or Tories because none of them have got

36:31

policies that will help the poorest people in

36:33

our society. That's what I look at. The

36:35

reasons that have been put forward are fairness.

36:37

We're in favour of proportional representation, but we're

36:39

also in favour of proportional representation because we

36:41

think it will make it easier for us

36:43

to remain in the European Union once we

36:45

get back. It won't be a question of

36:47

the Conservatives getting in with 35% of the

36:50

vote and joking us

36:52

out of the European Union again. So we

36:54

have another particular reason in favour of PR. Brendan

36:57

Donnely of Rejoin EU, the SDP's William

36:59

Cluston and Hosh Shafi from the Workers'

37:01

Party of Britain. I'm Sean Lay. That's

37:03

the World Tonight. Good night and have

37:05

a restful weekend. Welcome

37:10

to The Bright Side, a new

37:12

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37:14

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