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1:13

Hello, I'm Shawn lay thanks for downloading the BBC's

1:15

world tonight podcast from Friday the 7th of June

1:18

We've highlights of the BBC's general election

1:20

debate with politicians from the UK's seven

1:22

biggest parties and as Taylor Swift begins

1:24

the UK Leg of her world's tour.

1:27

I've been down the pub for a

1:29

swift one with the fans who proudly

1:31

call themselves Swifties It

1:33

may have been the journalistic equivalent of herding

1:35

cats But Michelle Hussein succeeded

1:37

in the BBC's leadership debate It

1:40

was a mix of seven leaders

1:42

deputy leaders and leading spokespeople in

1:44

getting answers to some tricky moments

1:46

There are two potential hurdles on

1:48

such a crowded stage giving each

1:50

contributor a fair shout whilst avoiding

1:52

a cacophony of voices Drowning

1:54

each other out who got to stand where as

1:56

well as the order of final statements was down

1:58

to the drawing of lots but

2:00

there were sufficient fiery exchanges almost

2:02

from the beginning, including this one.

2:05

Penny, you can keep pointing at me, but you're

2:07

the party that have caught the arm for us,

2:10

has crashed the economy and left us in a

2:12

real mess. Keir has been absolutely clear. I am

2:14

absolutely clear. We will keep our nuclear deterrent and

2:16

we will invest in it into the future. It

2:19

doesn't matter what you're prepared to spend. We are

2:21

absolutely clear on that. It doesn't matter how many

2:23

submarines you stand next to and have your photograph

2:25

taken. If your foe

2:27

does not believe that you will

2:30

use these weapons, the deterrent

2:32

is gone. Well, our political

2:34

correspondent, Ainee Wells, has been at the

2:36

BBC's Radio Theatre, which is a few

2:38

stories downstairs from this studio where the

2:40

debate was held. Ainee, how did Rishi

2:42

Sunak's apology on D-Day come up in

2:44

the debate? Well,

2:47

it came up sooner than I think the Conservatives would have liked

2:49

it to, because the first

2:51

discussion was all about defence. And

2:54

as we know earlier today, Rishi Sunak was

2:56

forced to apologise after skipping the world leaders

2:59

event at D-Day. Nigel

3:02

Farage used the discussion

3:04

on defence this evening to call that an

3:06

absolute disgrace. Daisy Cooper, the deputy leader of

3:08

the Liberal Democrats, gave quite an emotional tribute

3:10

to her late grandfather, who she said served

3:12

at D-Day, who she felt would have been

3:14

sort of disrespected by the actions today, applied

3:17

in the SMP, also criticising the Prime Minister. So

3:21

a lot of criticism from the Conservatives'

3:23

opponents this evening. What was really striking, I think, in the room

3:25

here as well, was

3:28

that a lot of Conservatives who have been here

3:31

have been saying this, admitting this is a difficult

3:33

day for them. And here's how Penny Mordant, who

3:35

was the Conservatives' spokesperson tonight in the debate, responded

3:37

when asked about this. What

3:40

happened was completely wrong, and

3:43

the Prime Minister has rightly apologised for that. Apologised

3:46

to veterans, but also

3:49

to all of us, because he was

3:51

representing all of us. I'm

3:53

from Portsmouth. I've also been defence

3:55

secretary. And my wish at the end

3:57

of this week is that all of

3:59

our veterans feel good. completely treasured. And

4:02

I'm hoping tonight to convince you of

4:04

some things that are important to them,

4:06

important to their legacy. And

4:08

I couldn't do that if I wasn't straight with you

4:10

on that issue. I just want to- Would you have

4:12

left D-Day early? I

4:15

didn't go to D-Day. I think what

4:17

happened was very wrong. I think the

4:19

prime minister has apologized for that. But

4:21

what I also think is important is

4:23

we honor their legacy. They fought for

4:25

our freedom. Unless we are

4:27

spending the right amount on defense, we

4:29

can't honor that legacy. I

4:33

think what's striking about that clip we just

4:35

heard there from Penny Morden, she clearly is

4:37

conscious that what's perceived to be a mistake

4:39

today from the prime minister will affect people

4:42

like her too. And so rather than defending

4:44

the prime minister at all, really

4:46

doubling down on saying it was the

4:48

wrong decision. And also then using it

4:51

as an opportunity to attack what she

4:53

sees as a position from labor, criticizing

4:55

Angela Rayner's previous record in the past

4:58

for not voting for the Trident nuclear

5:00

weapons. The questions themselves

5:02

were determined by members of

5:05

the audience. And from that long, long

5:07

list, the production team selected what looked

5:09

like the issues that came up most

5:12

frequently. What were those? That's

5:15

right. I think the topic's fairly predictable

5:17

ones. Ones we're seeing coming up a lot so

5:19

far in the election campaign, really the NHS, the

5:21

cost of living, immigration as well, kind of the

5:24

three big themes, I think really, as well as

5:26

climate change also being a discussion that

5:28

was talked about in the debate. Really the

5:30

cost of living in particular was one

5:32

where that we saw some particular clashes,

5:34

a familiar clash between labor and the

5:37

conservatives on tax. This is how Penny

5:39

Morden and Angela Rayner discussed that issue.

5:41

We've absolutely guaranteed we will not

5:43

raise taxes for working people in

5:45

this. How are you going to

5:48

close that gap? 2,000

5:51

pounds per working household. Answer.

5:53

I'm going to. Which policies?

5:55

Are you going to take out of your manifesto? Which ones

5:58

do you do? We've been clear how we would pay for

6:00

our manifesto. It's time. It's

6:02

time. It's time to hear from the others. Angela

6:04

Rayna, it's time to hear from the others. Carla

6:06

Dena. That was terribly dignified, wasn't it? So

6:14

I think we get a taste there of just

6:16

how heated that exchange on tax got. Now, the

6:18

conservatives have been doubling down on this claim of

6:20

theirs that the label would raise taxes by £2,000.

6:24

Now, that is a dubious figure. It's

6:26

been widely disputed by not only the

6:28

Treasury, but also statistics authorities as well.

6:30

But the conservatives are continuing to say

6:32

that under Labour taxes would rise.

6:34

I think the elephant in the room for

6:36

both Labour and the conservatives in this election

6:39

campaign is that independent analysts have been pretty

6:41

clear that if they are to meet their

6:43

spending pledges, they would have to do

6:45

one of three things, borrow more

6:47

money, raise taxes or cut public

6:49

spending. I think neither party

6:52

is particularly keen to be very

6:54

upfront about which of those they are going to do

6:56

in some cases. I only

6:58

was our political correspondent. Thank you very

7:01

much. Well, in an event like this,

7:03

as we saw even with the Rishi

7:06

Sunak and Keir Starmer debate earlier in

7:08

the week, you get claim and counterclaim.

7:11

Seven politicians presumably multiplies the number of statements

7:13

that need to be checked. Are you going

7:15

to call fact checkers? In our case, BBC

7:17

verified correspondent Nick Eerley, who's no stranger to

7:20

evaluating the statements of politicians. I'm going to

7:22

make it slightly simpler. We'll come back to

7:24

the claims made by the Liberal Democrat Daisy

7:26

Cooper, Carla Dene of the Green Party

7:28

in England and Wales, Nigel Farage from

7:30

Reform UK, the S&P Stephen Flynn and

7:33

Renat Yoreth of Plaid Cymru. For now,

7:35

let's focus on Penny Morden for the

7:37

conservatives and Labour's Angela Rayner.

7:39

I suppose the big question is

7:41

the tax row between Labour and the

7:43

conservatives over who really is a tax

7:45

cutting party and who has or will

7:47

put your taxes up. Yeah. And I

7:50

suppose what you've got to do here

7:52

is put the politics and the substance

7:54

into different brackets, don't you? Because I'm

7:56

sure you will talk to Lisa and

7:58

Andy about the politics. tax. But

8:00

the substance of the claim that

8:02

the Conservatives keep making is misleading

8:05

because they are saying Labour will put tax up

8:07

by £2,000 when you look at

8:10

the claim there are some problems with it. Firstly that

8:12

£2,000 is over four years

8:14

so it's not £2,000 a year

8:17

as it might suggest that's what

8:19

the statistics watchdog was unhappy about.

8:22

It wasn't all calculated by the

8:24

Treasury as Rishi Sunak suggested earlier

8:27

in the week and also the way

8:29

that it's been calculated is pretty dubious

8:31

as well because it's based on political

8:33

assumptions from special advisors who are appointed

8:35

by the Chancellor. So you've seen Labour

8:37

you know go as hard as they

8:39

can in trying to and trying to

8:41

reject that claim. It's not the first

8:43

time that a political party has asked

8:46

the Treasury to look

8:48

into opposition costings. Gordon Brown did

8:50

it as well but if you

8:52

hear that £2,000 tax claim big

8:55

dollop of caution because as I say the

8:58

claim it in and of itself the top

9:00

line is pretty misleading. And Stephen Flynn who

9:02

is the Westminster leader of the

9:04

SNP brought up what he said was 18 billion

9:07

pounds of cuts on

9:09

the way. This is really

9:11

interesting and I think it's one we are going

9:13

to talk more about over the next three weeks

9:15

because the argument goes like this

9:17

because Labour have said they won't borrow

9:19

any more money and the Conservatives have

9:21

said they won't borrow any more money

9:24

for day-to-day spending because they've said they

9:26

won't put major taxes up and because

9:28

the economy is growing pretty slowly there

9:30

isn't much money to spend. Now on

9:32

the current spending plans real-term spending is

9:34

due to go up 1% under what

9:38

the the Conservative government spelt

9:40

out but there are key

9:42

areas of spending which are

9:44

protected like the NHS, like

9:46

defence, like schools, like aid

9:48

and if you take their

9:50

increases and look at what

9:52

happens to the other areas

9:54

like justice like transport other

9:56

major parts of what the government is responsible

9:58

for. That's where you get that 18 billion

10:00

figure from. That's from the Institute for Fiscal

10:02

Studies. It is an important one. It's one

10:04

that they think is a really sound figure.

10:06

But it's also important to say, Stephen Flynn

10:09

was talking about it in the context of

10:11

health. There's not going to be cuts

10:13

to health under the plans that we have. Because

10:15

that is a protected department. Exactly. Got you. Nick

10:17

Erdley from BBC Verified. Thank you so much. Right,

10:20

we're going to give you all a quick pause

10:22

to absorb that as you listen at home. And

10:24

a reminder to stay with us because the politics

10:26

is not your thing. Don't worry, we have the

10:29

antidote. A shakedown with the Swifties. You've explained to

10:31

me the appeal of the pop icon who's just

10:33

begun performing in the UK tonight. Having

10:36

a woman who is comfortable with being

10:38

herself and having the opportunity to speak

10:41

up for what it is to represent women, I

10:43

think it's nice to see someone empowered.

10:51

That's still to come, as I say.

10:53

Taylor Swift, beginning her 152 date world

10:55

tour. That's

10:57

probably almost as many appearances

10:59

the political leaders are making during the

11:02

course of this campaign. Well, after the

11:04

debate, journalists are corralled into the spin

11:06

room with party strategists who

11:09

try to explain what their man or woman in the debate

11:11

said or what they meant to

11:13

say. Chris Heaton Harris, the Northern Ireland Secretary

11:15

is performing that task for the Conservatives after

11:17

the debate. Chris Heaton Harris, good evening. We

11:19

should start with the d-tay apology, which the

11:21

Prime Minister made. According

11:23

to the Savanta poll, which has

11:25

been released, published in conjunction with

11:27

the Telegraph newspaper, despite the

11:30

apology, 68% of voters think it was unacceptable

11:36

to leave the d-day commemorations early to

11:38

record a television interview. Yeah,

11:41

actually, I think now the Prime Minister acknowledges he was

11:43

wrong and it was a mistake, so I

11:45

don't think there's much dispute to that. The dispute

11:47

is over the judgment call, isn't it? And

11:50

the bottom line is that people seem to have

11:52

made... ..to conform the

11:54

view that the judgment call was the

11:56

mistake. You can apologise for doing

11:58

something after you've done it. it but you shouldn't have done

12:01

it in the first place and that is down to political

12:03

judgment. Well it's down to

12:05

a whole host of things and I'm

12:08

not going to give you a whole the line of

12:10

excuses that I could because politicians lots of senior politicians

12:12

are not in charge of their own direction but for

12:14

them you don't get to see it to the last

12:16

minute and obviously there is a general election campaign going

12:18

on but he made a mistake he's admitted it's a

12:20

mistake and I believe if

12:22

you look at the question that was asked by

12:24

this phantom poll that's that's exactly the answer you

12:27

would get. The problem is it could affect how

12:29

people vote. Everything

12:32

affects how people vote in a general

12:34

election but yet you

12:36

know there's a whole host of other things very

12:39

important things that we have

12:41

been talking about here tonight. Very

12:44

interesting that that was one of the first things to come up though

12:46

wasn't it? Now you could just say well that's because it was in

12:48

the last 24 hours. Just

12:50

just one second it didn't come up in

12:52

the question from the gentleman from the audience

12:54

it didn't come up it was

12:56

brought up by other people on the panel and

13:00

Penny answered it quite forthrightly as you would

13:02

expect from Penny and

13:06

I would suggest you go away and look at the tape

13:08

and look at the audience reaction at the end of those

13:10

answers because they wanted answers on actually how the credibility behind

13:12

labor's national security what labor's

13:15

going to do on national security

13:17

whether you know Putin would ever

13:19

perceive labor as significantly

13:21

critical to defend

13:23

our let's talk about credibility because

13:25

obviously you're here to explain the

13:27

conservative's position. Why are you sticking

13:29

to this much criticized analysis of

13:32

labor's spending plans when

13:34

it's been specifically said not least

13:36

by the former cabinet of cabinet

13:38

secretary that is an attempt

13:40

by politicians to buy credibility from the civil

13:42

service and it's based on dodgy assumptions to make

13:45

the policy look as bad as possible. Well

13:48

yet again this evening we had yet

13:51

another unfunded spending commitment from Angela Rayner

13:53

again in this first question on labor's

13:55

defense policy. That's not an answer to

13:57

why you'll continue to use the 2000

14:00

figure when it's been the credibility of it has been

14:03

shot. No, it hasn't

14:05

been shot. I think that's actually Nick, Nick,

14:07

early in the bit I heard earlier, and

14:10

indeed your your correspondent beforehand. Actually, Nick did

14:12

mention growing the economy and how you can

14:14

get money through that. But we've we've used

14:16

Treasury figures. We've used no, no, no, no.

14:18

According to James Beaul, I'm sorry to interrupt

14:20

you. This is very important. People are clear

14:23

about this. According to the letter sent by

14:25

James Beaulieu, the Treasury Permanent Secretary. These were

14:27

not the figures from the

14:29

Treasury. They were not involved, it says, in

14:31

the calculation of the total figure used. Individual

14:34

figures may have been used, but you told

14:36

them to base their assumptions. But the assumptions

14:38

that led to the final figure were not

14:40

from the Treasury. I'm

14:44

afraid you have to look at our

14:46

party political broadcast again, that's that's coming

14:48

up, where we will double down again

14:50

on this and demonstrate where you're not

14:52

backing down. OK, Pennyborden said in fact,

14:54

most of most of Labour's commitments are

14:57

unfunded. Most of and everybody knows exactly

14:59

what Labour's going to do. Labour

15:01

doesn't grow the economy. It taxes

15:03

people. Pennyborden said we'd

15:05

hear more about tax cuts in

15:08

the party's manifesto. I'm afraid I

15:10

didn't write the party's manifesto. So

15:13

I'm looking forward to seeing that as much as

15:15

you are. Well, the Telegraph is reporting tomorrow morning

15:17

that you're going to abolish stamp duty for first

15:19

time buyers. I'm

15:22

afraid I haven't seen our manifesto. So you

15:24

haven't been briefed on that? No,

15:28

I haven't seen our manifesto. No, but the

15:30

Telegraph is reported. I assumed you would have

15:32

been briefed on the stories that had been

15:34

briefed to the newspapers for the morning. I

15:36

haven't been briefed on what the Telegraph might

15:38

have been briefed by somebody on

15:41

that bit. A bit of the manifesto I've seen is the bit

15:43

that relates to Northern Ireland because I'm the Secretary of State for

15:46

Northern Ireland. Do you think the figures will add up? Yes.

15:50

Chris Heaton Harris, who is the former, the

15:52

current Northern Ireland Secretary, but who's leaving the

15:54

House of Commons at the next election. He

15:56

has been the MP for Daventry. Thank you

15:58

very much for being with us. The

16:01

Labour spokesperson doing exactly the same

16:03

task, following behind Angela

16:05

Rayner, as it were, is Lisa Nandy,

16:07

who is the Shadow Cabinet Minister for

16:09

International Development. Let's just pick up on

16:11

that, just a straightforward reaction. If the

16:13

Telegraph story is correct, and Chris Heaton

16:15

Harris says he doesn't know anything about

16:18

it, what do you make of that

16:21

suggestion that the Conservatives would abolish

16:23

that particular charge for first-time buyers? Sorry,

16:25

what was the policy that the Telegraph

16:27

briefed? I haven't seen that. The Telegraph

16:29

is, their front-page story tomorrow,

16:31

is abolishing stamp duty for first-time buyers.

16:33

Yeah, I mean, I seem to remember

16:35

Rishi Sunak tried this before, and it

16:37

didn't make a significant dent on solving

16:40

the housing crisis, and particularly the crisis of

16:42

first-time buyers. So you wouldn't do it? Look,

16:44

what we'll do is what works, and the

16:46

first thing that we'll do is get Britain

16:48

building again. So you don't think that would

16:50

work? Well, I mean, I

16:53

have seen our manifesto. I don't want to

16:55

trail what's going to be in it. Because

16:57

otherwise they'll lock you away in a dark room. Well,

16:59

again, I've been locked away in a dark room for most of the

17:02

day agreeing it. I don't want to reopen that. But

17:04

what I would say is this, that the reason that

17:07

consecutive Conservative policies on housing have failed, things

17:09

like help to buy under George Osborne, is

17:11

because we've got a supply problem in this

17:13

country. And if you're not honest with the

17:15

electorate about that, and you don't get Britain

17:17

building, you're not going to be able to

17:19

solve the housing crisis, and you're not going

17:21

to be able to grow the economy. You've

17:23

set a 1.5 million homes target for the

17:26

length of the next Parliament. So let's say

17:28

between four and five years, who knows how

17:30

long it will actually run for. No party

17:32

in government, yours or the Conservatives, or indeed

17:34

the coalition government, managed to achieve their target.

17:37

What makes you think you can? Well, first

17:39

of all, the national target is not the

17:41

only part of the story. We're also reinstating

17:43

local targets, which is really important because you've

17:46

got to make sure that local areas have

17:48

sufficient homes for their need. It's no use

17:50

building lots of houses in one part of

17:53

the country, if you're chronically short of houses

17:55

in another part of the country. Secondly, because

17:57

we've set out some pretty detailed proposals around...

17:59

reforming the planning system to make sure that

18:02

we get things moving quickly. And

18:04

thirdly, because last time we were in government,

18:06

we did build significant numbers of housing. I

18:08

take the point that we didn't meet the

18:10

target, but we did build significant numbers of

18:13

housing and we did it all whilst bringing

18:15

social homes up to a decent standard after

18:17

years and years of neglect. We've got a

18:19

good record on housing in the Labour Party.

18:21

And if we're fortunate enough to be elected,

18:23

we intend to do that again. How much

18:25

does that depend on growth? Well,

18:27

everything that we do in our

18:29

manifesto is fully costed and fully

18:31

funded. So even if there is

18:34

no growth, your claim

18:36

is that everything can be met?

18:38

Well, housing is, first of all,

18:41

yes. The proposals that we're committing

18:43

to are proposals where we

18:45

found the money that we won't raise

18:47

taxes on people in order to achieve

18:49

them and we know that they can

18:51

be delivered. But secondly, that house building

18:54

for us is not just about using

18:56

the proceeds of growth. It's about creating

18:58

that growth. OK, well, I mean, that

19:00

creating the growth one is obviously for

19:02

all the parties, the jury is still

19:04

out. And in a sense, you're asking

19:06

us to accept

19:09

your aspiration and you can't know whether you'll

19:12

achieve that. But we can't I can't really

19:14

argue with your point. I

19:17

absolutely accept that. But you don't just have to

19:19

take it on trust. I would ask

19:21

people to just listen to what Angela Rainer

19:23

was saying in the debate today. Look at

19:26

the policies that we've set out. We've done

19:28

an enormous amount of work to make sure

19:30

that they can work. And if you look

19:32

at the range of people who are coming

19:35

forward to support what we're doing, from business

19:37

leaders to house builders, you'll see that there

19:39

is broad support around what we're doing. Labour

19:41

says it won't put up taxes for working

19:44

people. That's kind of cast iron commitment. Who

19:46

do you define as working people? Well, households

19:48

across this country where you've got people in

19:50

work are currently facing the highest tax burden

19:53

in 71 years. So any

19:55

more than admitted that. So does working

19:57

people, does that extend to the

19:59

self employed? does it extend to small business

20:01

owners? Can all of them be confident you

20:03

won't put taxes on? Well, the

20:06

overall tax burden on working people, whether

20:08

it's small business owners or self-employed people

20:10

or people in paid employment is too

20:12

high in our view, and we want

20:15

to see that come down. The first

20:17

way- We want to see it come down, but that's

20:19

not a guarantee it will, or indeed that there won't be increase.

20:21

Well, we're confident that we can do

20:23

it. First of all, because we've ruled

20:26

out rises to income tax, national insurance

20:28

and VAT, but second of all, because

20:30

our number one pledge, which we launched

20:32

quite presciently just before the general election

20:35

was called, is to deliver economic stability.

20:37

And the reason why people are currently

20:39

paying a very heavy price in terms

20:41

of taxes, mortgages, and astronomical rents is

20:43

because the Tories crashed the economy and

20:46

sent interest rates through the roof. Delivering

20:48

economic stability is an essential part of

20:50

us keeping the tax burden down on working

20:52

people. Forgive me for coughing over your last lecture. A

20:54

bit of a frog in my throat. Just

20:57

last brief quick question. Unite, which is

20:59

your biggest union funder, has declined to

21:01

endorse your manifesto because of your policies

21:03

on workers' rights. It's not a great

21:05

signal, is it? Because those people have

21:07

been with you in good times and

21:09

bad. Those union members pay

21:11

their subs, but they're not convinced by

21:13

your plans on workers' rights. They're not happy with

21:15

it. Well, I think that's

21:18

a mischaracterization actually. And I accept that

21:20

Sharon Graham, the general secretary of Unite,

21:22

is very clear that she wants to

21:24

see Labour go further in our manifesto

21:27

commitments. But I was with Sharon at

21:29

the clause five meeting. That's our meeting

21:31

where we signed off the manifesto. And

21:33

unlike Chris, I have seen my party's

21:35

manifesto. And I can tell you

21:37

that she was, like everybody in the room, very

21:40

positive about what is in the manifesto. Of course

21:42

people will want to see more in it. And

21:44

we faced a lot of calls to do that.

21:46

But we're not going to make promises that we can't

21:48

keep. When you see that document, you can be confident

21:50

we're going to deliver it. Lisa Nandy,

21:52

Shadow International Development

21:54

Minister, member of the Shadow

21:57

Cabinet. Thanks very much. Nick Erdley is

21:59

still with me. Nick, anything in the

22:01

last two interviews you just want to pick up

22:03

on? The one

22:05

thing that was talked about a lot

22:08

tonight that was particularly contentious

22:10

was defense spending, wasn't it? And what is going

22:12

to have to happen to defense spending? Lisa, can

22:14

you just confirm when Angela Reiner

22:16

said that 2.5% was a commitment,

22:18

is that going to be a new manifesto?

22:20

Well, I don't want to give away details

22:22

of the manifesto in advance, not least because

22:24

I will probably be sent back to that

22:26

room with no phone and no windows in

22:28

order to spend the rest of the election

22:30

campaign there, but she was right

22:32

to say that it was something that

22:35

we're committed to. But what we've been doing

22:37

work on is how you fund it, because

22:39

the Conservative announcement that they would meet it

22:41

wasn't backed with any kind of commitment about

22:43

where the money's coming from. We want to

22:46

make sure that when we make those promises,

22:48

people know that we're going to keep them.

22:50

Well, there were two claims that came up

22:52

tonight that were particularly interesting in the debate.

22:54

One was that the Conservatives are spending less

22:56

now than Gordon Brown did in the last

22:59

year. Are we talking in real terms? A

23:01

Labour government. That is in real terms and

23:03

it is strictly true. House Commons figures make

23:05

it clear that it's only slightly down in

23:07

real terms. But you remember that in the

23:09

austerity years, there was quite a dip. It

23:12

stayed pretty low. It started to go back

23:14

up, but it is just lower now than

23:16

it was in real terms. And the international

23:18

situation is arguably more precarious than it was

23:20

in 2010. Yes,

23:22

and it would change if both parties,

23:25

Labour and Conservatives, deliver that 2.5% of

23:28

GDP. That real terms figure would presumably

23:30

go up, provided nothing particularly bad happens

23:32

to the economy. The other

23:34

claim that was made by Daisy Cooper from

23:36

the Liberal Democrats was that the army now

23:38

is a lot smaller than it was a

23:41

few years ago. That is true, too. It

23:44

was 100,000. It's now just over 70,000. Nick

23:47

Eardley, thank you very much. And thank you

23:49

very much for being able to concentrate on

23:52

the facts for us. It's much appreciated. Now,

23:54

let's talk more broadly about the debate I've

23:56

got with me in the studio to guest

23:58

two who know a lot of... advising politicians

24:00

ahead of events like this and they were

24:02

also very experienced analysts of the political scene.

24:04

Charlie Rowling was a political adviser for five

24:06

years from 2017 working for both Theresa May

24:08

and Michael Gove and Baroness Ayesha Hazarika, I

24:10

don't think she was that last time I

24:12

had you in the room. No, thank you.

24:15

Congratulations on your elevation. Spent eight years until

24:17

2015 as political adviser

24:19

Harriet Harmon and Ed Miliband among others, as I

24:21

say she now sits on the Labour benches. We've

24:24

got a slightly more difficult question for both

24:27

of you because obviously you're concerned about how

24:29

your parties did and their performance

24:31

but we want to kind of do

24:33

that in the context of

24:35

what the other parties had to say.

24:37

Just general impressions first briefly before we

24:39

get into some of that Ayesha. Well

24:43

I would say that all the

24:45

the big players were really strategic in terms

24:47

of how they were coached so I would

24:49

say just been completely objective, obviously I'm a

24:51

sort of Labour person, but being completely objective

24:54

Angela Rayner I think her game plan was

24:56

to go in and not to have a

24:58

huge row with anybody and you know they're

25:00

in the lead, Labour's in the lead they're

25:02

still being quite cautious in their approach. They

25:05

don't create any hostages. Exactly and

25:07

don't necessarily create huge headlines either.

25:10

Penny Mordent was coached to go in,

25:12

not go anywhere near Nigel Farage and

25:14

but have an absolutely massive rock with

25:16

Angela Rayner and Nigel Farage was kind

25:18

of trained mainly on the Conservatives, little

25:20

bit of a nibble at Labour and

25:23

Stephen Flynn was kind of having a

25:25

go at everybody really. I thought that

25:27

was the really interesting thing about

25:29

it. I don't think there was a standout

25:31

star or a gotcha moment. There wasn't a

25:34

gotcha moment. I mean it was quite techy

25:36

between Angela Rayner and Penny Mordent. I think

25:38

the physical proximity of them was interesting. I

25:41

think you know that was a very happy

25:44

action that did create some kind of drama, a

25:47

bit of a stushy as they stay up the

25:49

road. But on the whole the

25:51

other thing was interesting. I feel like Farage was

25:53

kind of like the dog that didn't really bite

25:55

tonight. He's arguably the most experienced politician

25:57

on that panel. Yeah and he's box office normally.