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I'm James Camaros. Ah me. Thank you

0:45

for downloading the Bbc Well Tonight podcast

0:48

for Tuesday. The Fourth of June. Rishi

0:50

Sooner and Kissed Storm have gone head

0:52

to head in the first televised debate

0:54

of the General Election campaign. It finished

0:56

just in time for the World Tonight

0:58

to bring you the highlights and get

1:00

reaction from the minister for leveling up

1:02

Michael Gove and Labor's Was Street is

1:04

well as analysis from I guess in

1:07

the studio. We also hear from the

1:09

main opposition party in India which is

1:11

exceeded expectations in that mammoth the General

1:13

Election. And talking of giant

1:15

extinct creatures, we hear about the

1:17

pre teen dinosaur hunters who found

1:19

the skeleton of a teenage T.

1:22

Rex. It's. One

1:24

thing to do it at midday on

1:26

Wednesdays in the Commons. It's another thing

1:28

to do it at nine Pm on

1:30

live television during a General election campaign.

1:32

In the past minutes or so, the

1:34

first head to head debate between Rishi,

1:36

Sumac and Case Dom and Self had

1:38

wrapped up on I T V under

1:40

the watchful eye and frequently from and

1:42

of Juliet Ching I'm They argued over

1:44

a range of issues, one that was

1:47

raised quite frequently though with taxes and

1:49

whether or not they would be raised.

1:51

The two party leaders agreed that they

1:53

wouldn't increase income tax. National Insurance or

1:55

other than Labour on Private Schools v

1:57

A T in the next parliament leading

1:59

to. this question. And

2:58

this was their exchange in response to a

3:00

question about whether the NHS is broken. The

3:02

NHS is still recovering from Covid. We went through

3:05

the best part of two years where the NHS

3:07

couldn't conduct all the treatments it normally would. And

3:09

it is going to take time to recover from

3:11

that. But we are now making progress. The waiting

3:13

lists are coming down. But what Keir Starmer didn't

3:15

mention to you, which you did, Julie. Well, you

3:17

did 7.2 million. They're now 7.5 million. He says

3:19

they're coming down. And the guys, is he good

3:22

at maths? Yeah, they are. They are now coming

3:24

down. They are now coming down. 7.2 when you

3:26

said you get them down. 10.2 million. They're now

3:28

7.5 million. I'd

3:30

like you to explain how they're coming down because

3:33

they were coming down from where they were when they

3:35

were hired. And they're now on their way down. They

3:37

are gone. Yes, because

3:40

the NHS was impacted by industrial action.

3:42

And if it wasn't for that, the

3:44

employment would have been safe. Somebody else's

3:46

fault. Well, Newsnight's political

3:48

editor, Nick Watt, has been at the

3:50

debate and joins me live now. Good

3:53

evening. Nick, what's the atmosphere being like

3:55

then? Well, Jamie, I'm

3:57

in the spin room and it has just come alive in

3:59

the last. The minute not have an

4:01

eight minutes. The shadow cabinet ministers coming

4:03

as a spin rates on something really

4:06

interesting. It's happening to leading members of

4:08

the shadow cabinet. Mcfadden join us was

4:10

T. Grain Fine Labor Selection and they

4:12

are doing a briefing for the print

4:15

journalists completely surrounded by for journalism. There

4:17

is no such briefing going on with

4:19

the Conservative Party with suggested offices to

4:22

pay for print journalists. A saying that

4:24

the Labour party is the biggest story

4:26

that for the prince and the thing

4:28

is Michael says. It has to

4:31

help. Sixty thousand estimates? And on

4:33

a cabinet minister something else. the Tories will

4:35

be happy that they got a headline figure

4:37

out that is on the name of that

4:39

saying the front of civil be up by

4:41

two thousand. How to point com time for

4:43

tests? On to say that for non person.

4:47

On this button or something about he goes

4:49

into south side complete rubbish but it took

4:51

them separate your nominate a longer to say

4:54

that any any other moments and stood out.

4:58

Well I think says i'm feeling pretty

5:00

soon as trying to do with what

5:02

he. Does in the debate mistresses go

5:04

on? The census was. Asking

5:07

us what are you going to go smoothly

5:09

going on the offensive. Side

5:12

was it. It was sort of winning

5:14

on points but not winning the charm.

5:16

Offensive to see thing that system is

5:18

Susan a sort of them. Is

5:22

not drop rates and ming vase

5:24

I'm I think so. Things that

5:26

didn't. Make

5:28

thanks very much for him was he You

5:30

are getting your own presents itself in there.

5:32

In that spin room will will will rejoin

5:34

you. But Sir Nick mentioned the Michael Gove

5:36

Sector Estate for leveling up housing and community

5:38

that until recently the Conservative Mp for sorry

5:41

he solo he's decided not to seek reelection

5:43

is in the room as well and I'm

5:45

pleased to say is on the line Good

5:47

evening. Oh

5:49

you're very low Michael Just an affair

5:51

with hopefully the lines and be be

5:54

to meditate or this is a very

5:56

skilled sound engineer with me now. Wonderful

5:58

Yes we can hear you. Now I'm

6:00

so look at this two thousand and

6:02

figure am that's a pretty soon as

6:04

it has come up with of labor

6:06

saying. The taxes. And tax

6:09

rises Labor saying that is based. On.

6:13

Policies. That a yet to be costed. And.

6:16

Until the Manifesto is out, He simply

6:18

can't really come up with figures like

6:20

that. Kenny. That is

6:22

a pathetic response types of the back

6:25

of and that Saddam himself that he

6:27

wasn't going to go details the resist

6:29

It doesn't know the details but we

6:32

have independently with the help of first

6:34

week civil servants coffers the proposals that

6:36

Labour have already made a me no

6:39

Taxes will go up and secure confirm

6:41

in the debate a know a rare

6:43

moment of honest that taxes will definitely

6:45

go off under Labour. that's the one

6:48

society inlaid have club. Rishi

6:51

say that. Is went into

6:53

this debate of the back

6:55

of twenty four hours and

6:58

more of coverage of Nigel

7:00

Farage, his decision to stand

7:02

as a Reform candidates to

7:05

lead the Reform Party and

7:07

a lot of concern amongst

7:09

conservative voters conservative politicians. I

7:12

should say that this could

7:14

have a real impact on

7:16

the elections has received soon.

7:19

I've done enough to night

7:21

to. To see to

7:23

to persuade people not to vote for

7:25

a full you bet. That

7:28

can be only two people who to

7:30

be prime minister after this Alex for

7:32

are either was his neck focused on?

7:34

That was the purpose of tonight's debate.

7:37

It's a springboard to if he wants

7:39

Sir Keir Starmer as prime minister then

7:41

now, but the formal Liberal Democrat or

7:43

Green or Snp, all of those votes

7:45

will contribute to storm a going into

7:47

number ten. If you think the test

7:50

armor isn't ready for it, If

7:52

you don't want him to have that blank check,

7:54

if you don't want to have your was raided,

7:56

if you don't want to have your pension or

7:58

else has tax. if you don't want open borders

8:00

then vote conservative. It's as simple as that. Can

8:04

I ask about your portfolio leveling

8:06

up if it was mentioned right

8:08

at the end and it was

8:11

mentioned by system at this the

8:13

Conservative party. Not. Believe in

8:15

always not interested in leveling up anymore. Of

8:18

only on Saturday he committed more money

8:20

for leveling up times across the country

8:22

during the course of his campaign. We've

8:25

also made it clear that we're going

8:27

to improve Florida the handling of antisocial

8:29

behavior will have more uniformed police on

8:31

the beach in order to ensure that

8:33

in this time for to be overlooked

8:35

and I'm devalued by labour that we

8:37

are provide people with the security that

8:40

the need for is also that we

8:42

as a government have extended to the

8:44

police and more than any other government

8:46

has happened in England. On the

8:48

lay by the only place that got

8:50

a man with London the middle of

8:52

them a little yeah of have a

8:54

power surge thanks to our and on

8:56

those towns which has been given the

8:58

fans of those of a majority of

9:00

those were his one by the conservatives

9:02

and Twenty nine seen as being accused

9:04

of being essentially a giveaway. Note that

9:06

the process was done according to a

9:08

rest or formula but one of the

9:11

reasons why the turns benefited say that

9:13

are more of the country voted conservative

9:15

and twenty nineteen so when you're not

9:17

going on barrel politics. And oh good

9:19

heavens that a it is a thoughtful

9:21

and targeted intervention in order to ensure

9:23

community that said labor of the collected

9:25

for years get the source in the

9:28

on that they need an animal that

9:30

money has meant that are in other

9:32

times that we've seen pubs brought back

9:34

to life of we've seen community then

9:36

and a out centers and theaters are

9:39

have brought back on the public a

9:41

joke and even I'm very busy body

9:43

Football Club see from an unaccountable serenade

9:45

all as a result of all leveling.

9:48

Up activity and I just asked about

9:50

the fact he was speaking to us

9:52

now as still as a secretary statement

9:54

as an outgoing and p decided not

9:56

to stand and he made that decision

9:58

public. Off the recent. of the Prime Minister. Well,

10:01

tonight on the debate you had the

10:03

most ringing endorsement that Rishi Sunak could

10:11

possibly want, which was a performance

10:13

from him that knocked it out

10:15

of the park, a six-nold victory

10:17

against Kiyoswama. I'm

10:19

an older man. Rishi has

10:22

the energy and the

10:24

dynamism to carry this country forward,

10:26

and we have a new generation

10:29

of great Conservative ministers, Laura Croft,

10:31

Claire Coutinho, Johny Mercer, Kemi Badenok.

10:33

We have strength and depth. And

10:36

as with the England, or in fact the Scotland team, when

10:39

the old war horse is

10:42

past his best, you put him out to grass.

10:44

That just happened with me. Right, this wasn't the

10:46

case of you were afraid of a Portillo moment

10:48

of 1997 being a Gove moment of 2024

10:51

in Surrey Heath, with the Lib Dems

10:54

snapping at the Conservative heels there? No,

10:57

we've got a fantastic new candidate in Surrey

10:59

Heath, Ed McGinnis, younger, former

11:01

serving army officer, someone with

11:03

a successful business career as

11:06

well, and the

11:08

Lib Dems chap in Surrey Heath candidate, they're a very

11:10

nice chap I'm sure, but he

11:13

hasn't done anything I'm afraid to

11:15

help anyone in Surrey

11:17

Heath all the time that he's been

11:19

campaigning as a candidate, and he's a

11:21

sort of university lecturer or something like

11:24

that. So I hope he

11:26

continues to provide the

11:28

inspiring lectures in geography that

11:31

I know he's so good at, and

11:33

that means that Ed McGinnis can carry on with

11:36

a Conservative torture. Michael Gove,

11:38

Secretary of State for Leveling Up Housing

11:40

and communities with a Conservative reaction to

11:42

the debate. Let's just head back, thanks

11:44

very much I should say. Let's head

11:46

back to Nick Watt, who's

11:48

there in that very busy spin

11:50

room, and some early polling coming

11:52

out, Nick. That's

11:54

right, so you guys have done a snap poll, and

11:56

what they have found is that 51% play

11:59

the British and British. I do not want the debate.

12:01

And 49% say, K.S. Starmelon.

12:03

I think the topologist of Poulton would

12:06

describe that as a dead heat, as

12:08

that is within the margin of error.

12:10

And in a sense, what that shows

12:13

is that it was effectively a pretty

12:15

scrappy debate. This was not Ronald Reagan

12:17

mourning in America. This was not Bill

12:20

Clinton walking over to the debating chamber

12:22

to hold a woman's hand

12:24

and ask her how the recession

12:26

was affecting her. It was pretty scrappy.

12:28

Rishi Sunak clearly just wanted to get that £2000

12:30

tax rise figure out there. And

12:34

K.S. Starmelon wanted to show that the

12:36

Tories were about what he calls chaos

12:38

and division and he was about stability.

12:40

And yes, it's often said these are

12:42

not debates in the truest sense of

12:44

the word. These are opportunities, especially in

12:46

the case of the leader of the

12:48

opposition, to introduce themselves to

12:50

the public, to get their key

12:52

messages about themselves and about their

12:56

vision for the country out

12:58

there and clipped up.

13:00

Is that what it felt like? It

13:03

did very much feel like that. The interesting thing is

13:05

obviously, you know, we look

13:07

at the US president for the debate.

13:09

Our debates are different, so there's potentially

13:11

a weakness there because these politicians in

13:13

the UK, they are formed

13:15

in the House of Commons, and the

13:17

material, and they're basically taking each other

13:20

on. Tonight, there were members of the

13:22

audience, there were voters talking about how

13:24

the cost of living was affecting them,

13:27

how they were worried about the health service. And the

13:30

question is, were our leaders engaged with

13:32

them? Initially, Rishi Sunak was not engaging

13:35

with a question from Paul on his

13:37

own, published during the cost of living,

13:39

then he did engage on health. K.S.

13:41

Starmelon made clearly much more than ever

13:43

trying to gauge the people. It's not

13:46

like America, they're brought up in the

13:48

House of Commons, adversarial, and not so

13:50

used to engaging with voters. Nick,

13:53

thanks very much for battling this through

13:55

the noise. And we are hoping to

13:58

speak to, we're streeting from Labour. we're

14:00

having a bit of trouble getting through to him, but

14:02

hopefully we will in due course. But

14:04

watching the debate with us here in the

14:06

studio in London, I have Sienna Rogers, who's

14:08

senior writer at the House Magazine, former editor

14:10

of Labour List and Henry Hill,

14:12

acting editor of Conservative Home, back again, Henry,

14:14

I think it was the night of the

14:17

announcement you were last in the studio with

14:19

me. Welcome both of you. Sienna,

14:21

let's start with you, your

14:24

sort of snap assessment of

14:26

that debate. I was

14:28

quite surprised actually by how Keir Starmer

14:30

approached that debate. I felt like he

14:32

was giving answers as if he

14:34

were having a very normal conversation with someone

14:36

and they weren't, he didn't really come across

14:38

as a politician. And I think

14:40

some of his answers, they were quite honest,

14:42

but they were very wordy and a little

14:44

bit too complicated sometimes. They're not good or a

14:46

bad thing. Well, this is the thing. This is the thing.

14:49

I wonder how people react to that. It's

14:51

a bad thing in terms of the fact that these

14:54

TV debates traditionally really therefore politicians

14:56

to push their message over and

14:58

over again. And he didn't

15:01

do that as much as you would expect.

15:03

Certainly didn't do it as much as Rishi

15:05

Sunak did, who really, he did learn blows.

15:07

The risk with Rishi Sunak's approach is that

15:09

he comes across as a little bit too

15:11

aggressive. He was very punchy. It was quite

15:13

effective, but maybe voters don't like that. I

15:15

suppose we'll see with the kind of polls

15:18

that come out. Henry, what was your assessment?

15:21

I don't think it did anything to change my view that I

15:23

really wish we didn't have these debates or at least that we

15:25

had them in a completely different format. Both

15:28

of them, as you say, mostly pushing their own lines.

15:30

There were times when it devolved into something slightly more

15:33

interesting when they were responding to each other, but those

15:35

were few and far between. The important

15:37

thing to remember in terms of the overall impact is

15:39

most voters were not watching this debate. And so what

15:41

will shape their understanding and the impact on the race

15:44

will be clips that come out and circulate on the

15:46

news and social media and how the journalists write it

15:48

up. And on that score, I

15:50

think the fact that Rishi was more disciplined in

15:52

pushing his messaging probably counts for more than the

15:54

fact that he looked a bit boorish when he

15:56

was constantly overrunning his time Because

15:58

most people won't see that. Thanks.

16:00

Very much for that that. Instant analysis.

16:02

We can now join at West

16:05

Tracing who's up on the line

16:07

that was a full of. Forty.

16:10

Nine to fifty one the initial pola.

16:12

I'm sure you possibly won't med care

16:14

too much about that, but some the

16:16

fact that. As we've been

16:18

hearing really Senate did manage to get

16:21

that sega which are no labor disputes

16:23

of us a two thousand pounds tax

16:25

rise under labour out and it took

16:27

some time for testament to to try

16:30

and repost it. What

16:32

it was it was probably pretty soon.

16:34

Acts beslan have a nine and the

16:36

problem for rishi soon that is that

16:39

it was a bath I fly Labour

16:41

has been crystal clear. we won't put

16:43

up income tax, we will pop national

16:45

insurance and we won't increase. V I'd

16:48

say because we know that working people

16:50

applying a very heavy price on the

16:52

this conservative government's they are the masters

16:54

of prices on people. And the a

16:56

wet installment for applause wasn't just setting

16:59

out how we will spend the money.

17:01

We. Raise on things like at six

17:03

and a half thousand more features or

17:05

forty thousand more point it's a week

17:07

Nhs lighting the it was the fair.

17:09

A choice is the closing down for

17:11

non dom sleep. Hold the windfall tax

17:13

on the big oil and gas giants.

17:16

because people know with labour we make

17:18

we make fair a choices and went

17:20

on. Manifesto is published. The People to

17:22

be no doubt the promises We make

17:24

a promise as we continue on. Promises

17:26

of the conflict Will let's let's look

17:28

at your. Area

17:30

of expertise. of kissed on was

17:33

asked directly as both of them were of

17:35

course whether yeah to fully funded plan on

17:37

social care he said he did we did

17:39

actually outline any of the details can you

17:42

provide the ditto for the first steps as

17:44

kissed alma was saying was to make sure

17:46

before he was rudely and repeatedly instructed by

17:48

the prime minister and he he was talking

17:51

about the importance of the social care workforce

17:53

the need to make sure we can recruit

17:55

and retain retain the social task workforce that

17:57

we need to grow that work for and

18:00

provide the professional status that workforce

18:02

deserves, we're going to start by

18:05

negotiating the first ever fair pay

18:07

agreement so that people who

18:10

would love to be in the caring profession can

18:13

actually afford to do so and that will

18:15

be the first step, there will be other

18:17

steps in our manifesto too. And will you

18:19

match what the Lib Dems have announced today

18:21

on it, that they would provide free personal

18:24

care for older and disabled people at home?

18:27

Well I definitely want to see a

18:29

shift towards more care at home, the

18:31

promises we make in our manifesto will

18:33

be promises that we can keep and

18:36

promises that the country can afford. Just

18:39

coming back to that £2,000 which you have

18:42

said is rubbish, this

18:44

£38.5 billion black

18:47

hole that Rishi Sunak says

18:49

Labour has in its spending

18:51

plans, is that not

18:53

there? No, it

18:55

is totally phony, I mean one

18:57

of the lines in their dossier

19:00

claims that I would be spending and had

19:02

committed to spend £3 billion

19:05

giving junior doctors a 35% pay

19:07

increase. Now you can

19:09

ask the BMA, I've said the same

19:11

thing publicly, repeatedly, as I've said privately,

19:13

at this stage we cannot afford

19:15

to make that kind of commitment, the public

19:17

finances don't sustain it. So this is the thing

19:20

that I find shocking about Rishi Sunak who

19:22

is meant to be from the

19:24

sensible wing of the Conservative party, he has

19:26

turned into the worst sort of shameless populist,

19:28

but he is an unpopular populist and he

19:30

is making stuff up as he goes along

19:32

and I think he is pretty shameless. Can

19:34

I just bring you back to the debate

19:36

and how Kirsten reproduced this, I don't know

19:38

if you heard just before, Sienna

19:41

Rogers was pointing out

19:43

that his style was, she said

19:45

not like a politician and

19:48

giving long answers and actually

19:51

when you look at what these debates have

19:54

become and their impact on the campaign, it's

19:56

often about the short, shareable moments.

20:00

In that sense, was it a missed opportunity? No

20:03

I think what people got from Keir

20:05

Starmer was serious and substance. I

20:08

think what they got from Rishi

20:11

Sunat was techy, ill-tempered and

20:14

I think Keir was right at the end. He

20:17

couldn't defend anything about

20:19

his record or the record of 14

20:21

years of Conservative government and

20:23

it's hard to argue that you can be

20:25

the change the country needs when you preside

20:27

over such abysmal failure

20:29

and where you continue even in the

20:31

heat of an election campaign where usually

20:33

parties pull together. It has been a

20:35

clown show in the Conservative party even

20:37

now and so much of what Rishi

20:39

Sunat was saying this evening whether about

20:41

the ECHR or whether it was about

20:43

small boats, he's not actually debating with

20:45

Keir Starmer, he's looking over his shoulder

20:47

at Nigel Farage. Can I just ask

20:50

about your party which

20:52

has had its National Executive Committee meeting,

20:54

the candidate selections have been finalised, there's

20:56

been quite a lot of controversy over

20:58

them. Has that division over

21:00

candidates been put to bed now? I ask

21:02

because only last night seven of your councillors

21:04

in Slough resigned and they cited as their

21:06

reason for that the party's position on Gaza

21:08

and the deselection of Faisal Shahin. When

21:12

Keir Starmer said he would uphold standards in

21:15

public life he meant it and it is

21:17

so important that when people go to cast

21:19

their vote they see the Labour Rose on

21:21

the ballot paper not just as a statement

21:24

of our party's values but as a statement

21:26

of quality, a kite mark of quality of

21:28

our candidates. Now we have had to make

21:31

some tough decisions about candidates. Faisal Shahin has

21:34

made the loudest complaints but there

21:36

have been other people including former

21:38

MPs, including a council leader

21:40

who are not going forward as candidates

21:42

of this election, they're from a different wing

21:45

of the Labour party to Faisal Shahin but

21:47

that's because we've just come out of a

21:49

parliament where we've had MPs caused by-elections off

21:51

the back of misconduct and I would much

21:54

rather have a bit of bumpiness this side

21:56

of the election and take tough decisions now

21:58

than let people down after. the election

22:00

because their MPs have not upheld the

22:02

standards they expect in the way that

22:04

you know, conservative MPs who've been looking

22:06

at tractor porn or not been keeping

22:08

their hands themselves or offering to take

22:10

funds in order to leak documents. That's

22:12

exactly what nonsense we're trying to turn

22:14

the page on. Shadow Health Secretary Wes

22:17

Streeting, thanks very much. And we'll be

22:19

returning to our guests here in the

22:21

studio a bit later on in the

22:23

programme. And of course, we'll be hearing

22:25

from the other parties, leaders and representatives

22:27

in the BBC's seven-way debate that's taking

22:29

place on Friday. Now, of course, election

22:31

coverage can sometimes stray a little from the

22:33

issues that actually might affect your life. So

22:35

do let us know what issue or problem

22:38

or indeed enthusiasm is motivating you to go

22:40

and cast your vote on text. You can

22:42

reach us at 84844 and

22:45

that costs 10 to 15 pence. And on WhatsApp,

22:47

03700 1004444 is the number or there's the good

22:53

old email world.tonight.bbc.co.uk. Just let

22:55

us know what is the

22:57

issue or issues in this

22:59

election that are getting you going.

23:01

Now, Gus Smith from London has been in

23:04

touch asking whether we can take a look

23:06

at the party's offerings on climate change. And

23:08

that's something that we'll explore in detail tomorrow

23:10

night. But now we're going to break

23:13

away from our six-week long election campaign

23:15

and turn to an election where the

23:17

voting itself took even longer than that

23:19

because it has been confirmed that Narendra

23:21

Modi's BJP will be the largest party

23:23

in India's new parliament. But it has

23:25

fallen well short of expectations, including those

23:27

of Mr Modi, the prime minister and

23:29

leader of the Hindu nationalist BJP, set

23:31

a target of 400 seats

23:34

for his party and its allies to

23:36

get. And it's likely to get well,

23:39

the pair of them are likely to

23:41

get less than 300 new territory for

23:43

Mr. Modi after a decade of ruling

23:45

with a BJP majority among his

23:47

party's striking losses. Half of the seats

23:49

it held in India's most popular state,

23:51

Uttar Pradesh, including in Ayodhya, where Mr

23:53

Modi launched his campaign with a high

23:55

profile inauguration of a Hindu temple. Now

23:57

that though has stopped Mr Modi holding

24:00

a victory rally in Delhi today.

24:02

Here's our South Asia correspondent, Samira

24:04

Husain. As

24:08

Mr. Modi walked into BJP headquarters, supporters

24:11

roared with excitement, throwing

24:13

flower petals on the prime minister. He

24:15

took to the podium and declared himself

24:18

prime minister once again, thanking

24:20

the people of India for their support. We

24:24

are all very grateful to members of the

24:27

public. Citizens have expressed full confidence in the

24:29

BJP and NDA. Today's victory

24:31

is the victory of the world's largest

24:33

democracy. It's a victory of unwavering loyalty

24:35

to the constitution of India. But

24:37

Mr. Modi was clear to call this a

24:40

victory for his ruling party, the BJP and

24:43

the NDA, the alliance of parties he

24:45

needs to be able to form a

24:47

government. The results are a

24:49

blow for the prime minister who

24:51

rode into this election campaign, expecting

24:53

a landslide, but a surprise win

24:55

for the Indian National Congress, led by

24:58

Rahul Gandhi, who called this a win

25:00

for democracy. If Mr.

25:02

Modi is able to form a government,

25:04

it will be a coalition government with

25:06

a weaker mandate, uncharted territory for

25:08

the prime minister. That's Samira

25:11

Husain. Well, you heard her say, if

25:13

Mr. Modi can form a government, that's

25:15

because the main opposition Congress party, which

25:17

is led by members of the Gandhi

25:19

dynasty, could in theory try to persuade

25:21

the BJP's current coalition partners to jump

25:23

into bed with them. Dr.

25:25

Syed Naseer Husain is the Congress

25:27

party's leader in the southern state

25:29

of Karnataka. Congress, which

25:31

was leading the coalition at the center,

25:34

did a very decent job of raising the

25:36

issues concerning the people of our country. We

25:39

set an agenda, we spoke about the issues

25:41

of the country, we spoke about protecting democracy,

25:43

constitution. I think that agenda

25:46

resonated among the people and we

25:48

did get support. Was it also

25:50

though about how the

25:52

BJP approached this election? I know Mr. Gandhi,

25:55

senior leader of your party, has said that

25:57

this was a punishment for the BJP. When

26:00

I was in India at the beginning of the

26:02

election period, I saw the Modi

26:04

supporters with the t-shirts that had 400 on their

26:06

back. They were talking

26:09

about getting 400 seats. They've come

26:11

up a lot short. Was it a

26:13

case of overreach of hubris? You

26:16

do understand the kind of language,

26:18

the kind of slogans that was

26:20

there for Modi and the India in the

26:23

center. They give the slogan of crossing

26:25

400. Why do they want

26:27

400 when they want only 272 to form the government?

26:31

What is their hidden agenda? Changing the constitution to

26:33

suit the majority of theism in this country or

26:35

to suit the people that are there in power?

26:38

Now, it looks as though you're going to

26:40

fall short nonetheless of being able to form

26:42

a government unless Mr Gandhi

26:44

manages to do deals with parties

26:46

which previously had worked alongside Congress

26:48

but have been in coalition

26:52

with the BJP. Is that

26:54

still something that is happening behind the

26:56

scenes? Are you still hopeful that somehow

26:58

you can put together a coalition

27:00

that can command a majority? If

27:03

you personally ask me, I'm an optimist. Anything

27:07

can happen in politics. These

27:09

are the parties who have been forced

27:12

and have been black men to be in

27:14

coalition. Black males

27:17

are strong words to use about potential

27:20

coalition partners. Is that how they see

27:22

it? We have raised this

27:24

issue in the parliament. We have raised this issue in

27:26

the People's Court. We have raised this issue during the

27:28

election campaign. We have said this. That

27:30

is the reason why I say, why leaders who

27:33

are supposed to be tainted, the leaders who are

27:35

supposed to be corrupt, get a clean sheet

27:37

when they join the party. These are

27:39

the issues that we have raised in public domain. And that

27:41

is the reason why they have been punished in this election

27:43

today. Obviously, things would be more straightforward

27:45

if you had got the largest number of

27:47

seats. I mean, you must be

27:49

looking at this campaign and wondering what

27:51

might have been, given that the Momentum

27:54

was against the BJP, but you haven't been

27:57

able to quite get the numbers of seats.

28:00

That would give you the largest

28:02

block in the parliament. Remember.

28:04

I target numbers as desired performed a

28:06

government but I do a rehab or

28:08

modern weekly reality political or too bad

28:10

we have a man bit maybe not

28:12

the funding home and much to be

28:14

very close to the comics and what

28:16

do you think we can expect on

28:19

the assumption that Mr. Modi is indeed

28:21

the prime Minister for the next parliament,

28:23

the duration the next parliament? He someone

28:25

who's not had to. Really compromise?

28:27

How do you think that is

28:30

going to change how he. Rules.

28:32

India. You. Must have seen

28:34

again of mind said what into the room

28:36

for dinner to to the ninety nine to

28:39

come could be reduced minded. They

28:41

have to be did with the help of the

28:43

allies death so the Allies will call the shots

28:45

in this government. And

28:48

we had their from the yes

28:51

member of the Congress party indeed

28:53

the leaders in the southern into

28:55

state of Connecticut.aside necessity say. Turns

28:59

out that you're never too young to

29:01

hunt and indeed find some of the

29:03

eldest creatures on the planet. The new

29:05

documentary tell the story of the American

29:07

brothers Liam and Just and Fishy. The

29:09

race just seven and ten when they

29:11

discovered the fossilize skeleton of a teenager

29:13

tyrannosaurus Rex along with this nine year

29:15

old cousin Caden. They were in the

29:17

state. Of North Dakota. Here's a clip

29:19

of the documentaries with the youngest brother

29:21

Liam doing most of the talking. Asked

29:25

them. They. Are

29:27

watching. I'm that. Class:

29:29

as a white male my bad

29:32

my attacks on see them and

29:34

guess a lot of river. And

29:37

then. He.

29:44

Said. It's er, das I know.

29:47

It was pretty cool. It's

29:49

bad. When we

29:51

found out like that has

29:53

to be a dinosaur it

29:56

has sake. Of examined.

30:00

I we sent a fix the tyler and he

30:02

said that's a dinosaur. Ls

30:05

as well as a third since playing

30:07

for Down to Get Rid so I

30:09

could they give up. My alley,

30:11

Tyler that sir They mentioned there is

30:13

a family friend of Tyler Lyson, a

30:16

Paleontologist the Denver Museum of National Science.

30:18

Yes, he led the digs which discovered

30:20

that the bone they found belong to

30:22

a sixty seven million year old dinosaur.

30:24

And he's been telling me more about

30:26

these tiny dinosaur hunters. I

30:28

went to high school with their father

30:30

Sam Fisher and a couple years ago

30:33

sam you know sort of text me

30:35

and and telling me that there's boys

30:37

were really interested in paleontology and they

30:39

were always out looking for dinosaur fossils

30:41

and for he'd sent me pictures of

30:43

his boys holding petrified word or or

30:45

seashells and things like that and it

30:47

I would help identify them and tell

30:49

them to keep looking. You know that

30:51

there's though there was a dinosaur right

30:54

around the corner and then in July

30:56

of Two Thousand Twenty Two he takes

30:58

me. A photo of his boy Liam

31:00

lying down next to the leg of

31:02

a dinosaur and I was just so

31:04

excited for them because I knew that

31:06

they did. Looking for a dinosaur for

31:09

several years? For me, that's what is

31:11

for Just the best part about this

31:13

story. The kids went out looking for

31:15

fossils looking for a dinosaur skeleton and

31:17

found a dinosaur. I mean I think

31:19

more kids in that area and really

31:22

around the world sit do that. I

31:24

guess not all kids have an uncle

31:26

Tyler who knows what he's talking about.

31:30

The their baby that that's right are very

31:32

aware. you know there are experts around the

31:34

world a to local museums and would be

31:36

awesome effective would go out and find stuff

31:38

and bring things back to their local museum

31:41

has vowed made me very happy and I

31:43

guess it's they have a nice part of

31:45

the stories of these are still say teenagers

31:47

but they were preteens of course found the

31:49

teenage T Rex. yeah I mean the stories

31:51

it just sort of just better and better

31:54

because you know we got the excavations to

31:56

the dinosaur. We have a film crew with

31:58

us. Because the lot of the crew. reached out

32:00

and they wanted to cover a

32:03

dinosaur excavation for their film called

32:05

T-Rex. So we're out

32:07

there on day one of the excavation and

32:09

Justin and I are digging in a

32:12

spot and together he and I

32:14

expose the lower jaw of the

32:16

T-Rex. And it was just

32:18

such a remarkable moment because we uncover

32:21

it, he and I share a look.

32:23

We're the only two at the excavation that

32:25

know it's a T-Rex in that moment. And

32:28

then we both exclaim, we have a T-Rex,

32:31

everybody's just going nuts. And tell us a

32:33

bit about the T-Rex that you found. It's

32:35

from a juvenile and that's based on the

32:37

fact that the lower leg bone is quite

32:40

small. And so by placing that bone into

32:42

a known growth curve for Tyrannosaurus rex, we

32:44

can get an indication of how old it

32:47

is. And so we think it's about 13

32:49

to 15 years old, it weighed

32:51

around 3,500 pounds, maybe about

32:54

25 feet long. This

32:56

is going to be a really important fossil

32:58

because it's one of only a handful of

33:00

juvenile Tyrannosaurs that are publicly available to

33:02

scientists. We built a whole lab around

33:04

it here at the Denver Museum of

33:06

Nature and Science. And

33:08

we're going to prepare the fossil, clean

33:11

the fossil on the floor of the

33:13

museum where guests can come in and

33:15

interact and watch the scientists as they

33:17

uncover more of the skeleton. And are

33:19

you expecting, hoping a whole new generation

33:22

of fossil hunters will emerge out of

33:24

this? Will you watch the

33:26

film, I guess, and be inspired? Absolutely.

33:28

I mean, honestly, that is the biggest hope

33:30

that I have of this entire amazing

33:33

discovery is that it will inspire

33:35

the next future generation of

33:37

paleontologists and just scientists in

33:41

general. And that was Dr. Tyler

33:43

Leison on the kids who discovered what

33:45

they're calling a teen rex. Now

33:48

let's get back to the debate.

33:50

The first televised head-to-head debate between

33:52

Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak and

33:54

watching it with me and cheering

33:56

over what they've been hearing is

33:58

Sienna Rogers, Senior Writer the House

34:00

magazine form editor of Labour List

34:02

and also Henry Hill acting editor

34:04

of Conservative Home. Wes

34:06

Streeting talked about the tone, he

34:09

was critical of how,

34:11

as you might expect, Rishi Sunak interacted

34:14

with Keir Starmer. What did you both make of

34:16

the tone of the debate, Henry? I

34:21

would give the moderator a button that switched off people's

34:23

microphones when they ran over time. In fact, I do

34:25

that on radio shows as well. I actually think it

34:27

would just be a general, brilliant thing to introduce to

34:30

people's journalism in general. It's an unfortunate feature of the

34:32

debates is that in France

34:34

when they have presidential debates, they each have a chess

34:36

clock and that's to make sure

34:38

that they only get exactly the right amount of

34:40

time. Whereas when you've got a less strictly moderated

34:42

format, the temptation is always there to just talk

34:44

for as long as possible because you're using up

34:47

air time, you're taking oxygen away from your opponent.

34:49

Both parties have the incentive to do it, unfortunately.

34:52

Sienna, chess clock, would that be a good one? Well,

34:55

I was suggesting to Henry when we were

34:57

watching this, a quite controversial proposition, which would

34:59

be just to put the two main leaders

35:01

in a room together with cameras and nothing

35:03

else, no moderator, maybe a list of topics,

35:05

and they just figure it out themselves and

35:08

they'd have to have a proper conversation and

35:10

we would watch how that would turn out.

35:12

I think that would be fascinating. And importantly,

35:14

no audience. So you don't lose like a third of

35:16

the time with them going like, thank you, person whose

35:19

name I've remembered, I do connect with you. Right. So

35:21

a lot like Big Brother, but just two of them

35:23

in the room at the same time. Interesting

35:26

proposition. But I suppose it

35:28

gets a little bit to the tone question. Of

35:32

the two of them, how did they come across?

35:34

Did, you know, we

35:36

talked about Kia Stama, the Ming

35:38

vars strategy, just, you know, don't

35:40

do anything bad. How

35:43

do you feel they did as individuals?

35:45

Yeah, Kia Stama didn't drop the Ming

35:48

vars. I mean, that's the only thing that

35:50

Labour really cares about. They are so far

35:52

ahead in polls. I mean,

35:54

I was looking at the YouGovMRP

35:56

poll today and it has, according

35:58

to that poll, not a

36:00

single Tory seat safe. So some of

36:02

them are likely Tories, some of them

36:04

are leaning Tory, but not a single

36:06

Tory seat being safe. I mean, that

36:08

is extraordinary. So really, we're talking about

36:10

with the impact of this TV debate,

36:13

something had to go disastrously wrong for

36:15

Labour in order for this debate to

36:17

actually change anything in this election. And

36:19

that didn't happen. So Labour will be

36:21

taking heart from that, even if Rishi

36:23

Sunak was probably more effective at landing

36:25

blows. And Henry, I mean,

36:27

question I put to Michael Gove about the

36:29

Nigel Farage appearance in

36:31

the campaign now and whether Rishi Sunak has

36:34

an eye on the

36:36

party and the threat from Farage and whether

36:38

he's did anything tonight that might

36:41

influence that? Of course,

36:43

I mean, the most obvious thing that Sunak did was when he

36:45

said, a vote for any of the smaller parties is a vote

36:48

for Labour. That was clearly I mean, I don't think he was

36:50

talking to green voters when he was making

36:52

that argument. But on the flip side,

36:54

when Sukhir Starmer pointed out that Sunak

36:57

has been, quote, the most liberal Prime Minister we've

36:59

ever had on immigration, he was also talking to

37:01

reform voters because he wants them to defect from

37:03

the Conservatives. So absolutely, only those two leaders are

37:06

in the room, but the other parties are present.

37:08

Well, of course, on Friday, Nigel Farage will be

37:10

amongst those who isn't room seven, seven, well, they're

37:12

not all leaders are, it's called a leader's debate.

37:14

But these two certainly won't

37:16

be there. Very

37:18

different, I guess, atmosphere, we're

37:21

expecting what what can

37:23

we expect? I think the

37:25

two leaders debates have a lot of problems. I think

37:27

that the ones with seven people shouting over each other

37:29

are just a circus from start to finish. It

37:32

will probably also as we've seen previously, because

37:34

you've got the leaders of several progressive parties

37:36

and then Nigel Farage, he'll probably be sort

37:39

of fending off attacks on all

37:41

sides. I think I think

37:43

it suits him to an extent, but he's very

37:46

he's much better at set piece speeches than he

37:48

is at actual debates. And again, he

37:50

doesn't have much he's never been in the Commons, he doesn't have

37:52

all that much experience of that kind of format. So I

37:54

think he might struggle a bit if he

37:56

comes under pressure. I'll be really interested to

37:59

see how Angela Rayne I think who's standing

38:01

in for labor how she'll do against Nigel

38:03

Farage because you know She's quite known for

38:05

her very punchy performances when she stands in

38:07

at PMQ's for Kirstarmer So

38:09

be interested to see how she goes up things. Yeah,

38:12

and how punchy can you be when there are seven? Well,

38:15

you know in a sense you sort of have to

38:17

be because you you have to try in your miniscule

38:19

amount of time You're moderated time to generate the thing

38:21

that creates the clip, right? Because most people aren't going

38:24

to watch it, you know, most people didn't tune into

38:26

this one They're certainly not going to tune into the

38:28

seven the seven dwarves version of it And so what

38:30

you want is you want the thing that can turn

38:32

into a 30 second clip that your team can put

38:34

on social Media or that the news broadcast will pull

38:37

out. So actually you want to be as punchy as

38:39

possible I mean how long would

38:41

they have because in this debate tonight? There's only a head

38:43

head and then 45 seconds It's like

38:45

tell me your plan for social care in

38:47

45 seconds. It was it's just a ridiculous

38:49

proposition Well, look you had a bit

38:52

more than 45 seconds both of you have thank you both for

38:54

being with us But by 45 minutes

38:56

Sienna Rogers senior writer at the house magazine

38:58

former editor of labor list and Henry Hill

39:00

acting editor of conservative home To

39:02

have you back in the studio and that is

39:04

the world tonight This is James Kimara Sami for

39:06

now from me and everyone here on the program.

39:08

Good night Welcome

39:12

to the bright side a new

39:14

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39:16

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39:19

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