0:00

You know just in terms of

0:02

integrate and I wanna i like

0:04

a your book is just beautifully

0:06

integrate of you have brought in

0:08

the neuroscience their clinical phenomena of

0:10

a non clinical you know ways

0:12

that this gets represented. the individual

0:15

though, that relational, that group, the

0:17

societal, the collective you know you

0:19

and such clear language and and.

0:21

And. With lots of great examples. Make.

0:24

This clear to people much more than

0:26

I could do as one of the

0:29

reasons I probably went off in the

0:31

more training programs for clinicians development. But

0:33

what this book is unprecedented, it's It's

0:36

definitely gonna make a huge impact. Not.

0:38

Just on the field of attachment. but I think

0:40

in a society at large. Welcomed

0:44

a therapist uncensored. Building on decades

0:46

of professional experience, this podcast tackles

0:49

neurobiology, modern attachment and more in

0:51

an honest way that's helpful and

0:53

healing humans. Your session begins now

0:56

with Dr. Anne Kelly and Sumerian.

1:04

Hey everyone Sue and I are

1:07

here! Sign! So excited if you

1:09

are listening to this episode as

1:11

it comes out. Our book is

1:13

one week away from been published

1:16

and that is April Thirtieth, Twenty

1:18

Twenty Four and we couldn't be

1:20

more excited! And we're having a

1:22

virtual book launch so that we

1:25

can celebrate with you or listeners.

1:27

And. It, it's really taken out and

1:29

amazing. Turn has an issue. Yes, we

1:32

could not have ever imagined this and

1:34

our wildest dreams. That. Are book

1:36

launch when they have marched into this. Those.

1:38

Of the a familiar with this podcast

1:40

they'll be so many people that you have

1:43

heard that you've read the of referenced litter

1:45

going to be there live in in person.

1:48

For. Example: If you're an

1:50

attachment nerd. And. You

1:52

are into the research Carol George who worked

1:55

directly with New remain. An. Developed

1:57

the adult attach on Projective is for

1:59

sure going the be the front and

2:01

center. Allen's Truth. Is. Another

2:03

test researcher. More. He got live

2:05

as a clinician that has done so much

2:07

to promote secure relating. David.

2:10

Elliott or guess today and yesterday and

2:12

are good friend is gonna be there

2:14

and you can join him live and

2:16

see him interact with some of his

2:18

gurus that he didn't know who. Stand.

2:21

Had Pin Kristen nap for those

2:23

of you that to listen to

2:25

her. Been studying under her first

2:27

has Compassion lists playing. This.

2:30

Just quite the mover and shaker you heard us

2:32

with list playing gone On a bad movie. Barbie

2:34

that was so much fun! Guess is she's

2:36

just such a powerhouse. A recent podcast

2:38

with doctor Seen a young. It.

2:41

Has gone up to. One my very favorites:

2:43

Tagamet Liberation Psychology. And. Incredible.

2:45

So she's going to be there. She has. By

2:47

doctor seen I love that and cause serious

2:49

gonna be there right divertor and suddenly is

2:51

are all previous guess and many many more

2:54

that were nine or mentioning. So.

2:56

The way that you can the tens and it's

2:58

a book. Once said, the only requirement is that

3:00

you have purchased the book. That. Probably

3:02

means that you preordered it. It's not too late

3:04

to preorder it. Or. If

3:06

you're coming to either of the live events

3:09

that are also coming up and about a

3:11

week from this publication, There's

3:13

a public talk and there's allies Clinical

3:15

Conference here in Austin, Texas. Ever.

3:18

Going to purchase it then that's no problem

3:20

for hadn't come to the launch. You're welcome

3:22

the com. Go. To their

3:24

senses are.com as the homepage. Click.

3:26

On the events link. And.

3:28

You'll see all these events that there's

3:30

one called the virtual Wants. That

3:33

some us directly to find that

3:35

you Rsvp right there. And.

3:37

Again, it's on the honor system. Just pleased by the

3:39

book as part of it. And.

3:42

It's god's is tense me and I just can't believe

3:44

it. and then that's as a wonderful way of leading

3:46

up to one of the guess that are gonna be

3:48

there. David Elliott. Is with us

3:50

today to update us on. This.

3:53

Ongoing conversation with had at one time listeners will

3:55

be very familiar with his work. Many.

3:57

of these have studied with me about his

3:59

work or even with him directly. David

4:02

is a psychologist that

4:04

is also the author of Attachment Disturbances

4:07

and Adults with Dr. Dan Brown, who

4:09

has also been on this podcast and

4:11

one of the very popular episode. Yeah,

4:13

an amazing man. And you'll hear kind

4:15

of a behind the scenes as we

4:17

talk because we collaborated with

4:20

him along the way to come down

4:22

for a conference, but also for a

4:24

little while collaborated on the concept of

4:26

a book, but we shared a

4:28

lot of overlap. And then we ended up supporting

4:30

each other to go different directions, which was actually

4:33

really exciting because we landed at the same time when we

4:35

talked a little bit about that. So you get a little bit

4:37

of the behind the scenes on that too. All

4:39

right, let's jump in, shall we? Well,

4:41

we were just looking and it's been

4:43

200 episodes ago exactly that we started

4:46

our relationship with you. 200

4:49

episodes, wow. I love that you remembered that. We were

4:51

just sitting here talking about it's been a while and

4:53

your episode 234 and our first episode, you

4:57

remembered this 34. I had a

4:59

vague recollection, 34 sounds familiar. So.

5:02

That is so fun. A lot has happened

5:04

during that time. Well, one of the

5:06

things that's happened as we started, we've built a

5:08

really solid friendship that's

5:11

carried through the years and working relationship,

5:13

which I think has been really powerful.

5:15

Yeah, the best of both friendship and

5:17

collegial professional relationship as

5:19

well. And just as a reminder,

5:22

and again, our long time listeners will be very

5:24

familiar with this, but I had gotten obsessed with

5:26

your book and had

5:29

it torn to shreds from like my

5:31

dog ears and notes. And

5:33

literally the cover came off. It's not often

5:36

that I do that. And

5:38

so we hunted you down and that

5:41

was the beginning. We also brought you to Austin,

5:43

Texas. This is how crazy we are about David

5:45

Elliott's work. Brought him to Austin,

5:47

Texas to do a in-person conference. That's the

5:49

only one, besides the one that's coming up

5:52

next week that we're

5:54

presenting. Other than that, that's the only conference

5:56

that Therapist and Sensor has sponsored. So

5:58

you're very special to us. For those

6:01

that aren't familiar with you, David, Elliot,

6:03

tell us about your book, like the

6:05

book that she's talking about she dog-geared.

6:07

Yeah, yeah, it was wonderful, Sue,

6:09

that you were the first biggest fan,

6:12

passionately enthusiastic about

6:14

the work, and it was

6:16

great just experiencing that from you after,

6:19

shortly after it was published, so

6:21

internally grateful for that. Yeah,

6:23

the book, I'm a co-author of

6:25

the book. It was Daniel Brown, the senior author,

6:27

who you've also interviewed, therapist uncensored. Unfortunately,

6:29

he died just two years ago, in

6:32

April of 2022, so he's the inspiration

6:37

and the originator of the

6:40

principles that underlie the

6:42

three pillars attachment repair

6:44

work. And we published the

6:47

book called Attachment Disturbances in Adults,

6:49

Treatment for Comprehensive Repair, and it

6:52

came out in 2016. And

6:56

it's a big book, 752 pages. I

6:59

often recommend people buy two copies because you

7:02

can get a bilateral workout

7:04

with them. The first

7:06

half of the book covers history in

7:08

the field and what's known and understood

7:11

about attachment, its formation, its manifestations,

7:15

its problematic and non-problematic

7:17

forms. And

7:20

there's a whole lot there. Obviously, the field

7:22

of attachment is full of wonderful research

7:25

and researchers and information, some of

7:27

which is conflicting, some of

7:29

which is controversial, but that just means the

7:31

field is alive and there's room

7:33

for lots of people to

7:35

offer ideas and to evolve

7:38

the field further. So

7:40

we hope and feel that this

7:42

book and the work that it

7:44

describes has evolved the

7:47

field further, particularly in the domain of

7:49

treatment. So treatment for

7:51

comprehensive repair is the subtitle

7:53

of it. And that's based on what

7:56

we, Dan and I, and seven others,

7:58

some other colleagues, and others. colleagues who

8:00

contributed in various ways to the

8:02

book, recognized as

8:04

a limitation in the

8:06

field. A whole lot known about attachment

8:09

dynamics and its formation, but not

8:12

a whole lot written about treatment.

8:15

The primary treatment model, which

8:17

I still believe is very

8:19

valid and is fundamental to

8:21

effective treatment for attachment insecurity,

8:23

the more clinically significant forms

8:26

of insecurity, is

8:28

what I call the therapist

8:30

as good attachment figure model.

8:32

The principle is that when somebody comes

8:34

into therapy with internal

8:36

working models of

8:38

insecure attachment dynamics, basically if

8:41

during their childhood they

8:44

experienced caregivers who were not

8:46

reliably available to attend

8:48

to the needs in a reasonable way

8:51

when they arose, and

8:53

in worst case scenarios if those

8:55

caregivers perhaps were scare givers, you

8:58

know, were neglectful or abusive or both,

9:01

then they'll have an internal

9:03

working model of basically an

9:06

internal representation of how

9:08

relationships are expected to be in their

9:11

adult lives. So if I had

9:14

a neglectful parent as a child,

9:16

well, if I get into a

9:18

close relationship in my adult life,

9:21

I'll expect to be neglected. It's

9:23

not just a conscious thought

9:25

about that, although that may be there

9:28

too, but most significantly

9:30

there's an unconscious expectation that

9:33

leads me to expect neglect, that leads

9:35

me to see neglect perhaps where there

9:37

isn't any, to project

9:39

that onto the other, and

9:42

that obviously creates problems for the

9:44

relationship and for the self. So

9:47

the idea of therapist as good attachment

9:50

figure is that in therapy,

9:53

the therapist aims to be

9:56

a good attachment figure to provide What's

9:58

been termed a corrective and. No experience.

10:01

To. Help the adult.

10:04

Client. Or a patient. Seal.

10:06

Seen and valued and be able

10:09

to have some trust that the

10:11

therapist will be available and reliable

10:13

and a tune then. And

10:16

provide soothing when the person's upset.

10:19

Ah, Among other other characteristics and

10:21

features, the principle is that when.

10:24

That. Happens over time. The.

10:27

Old internal working model gets replaced by

10:29

a new internal working model. And

10:32

of we're secure and are working

10:34

model which then. Changes. The

10:36

set of expectations per person will have.

10:39

In. Their relational life from then

10:41

on and. So much has happened

10:43

since then. See when I have done

10:45

a book and. You took off and

10:48

a really really in a by the

10:50

way the The Book. I agree with

10:52

it's just wonderful. Check out episode thirty

10:54

four because I think David You did

10:56

an amazing job outlining the three pillars

10:58

and allowed the substantive part of the

11:00

book. So I really encourage if you

11:02

haven't heard that are if you haven't

11:04

heard in a while, go listen because

11:07

it's. Very worthwhile.

11:09

So. David: What have you

11:11

been doing? Since. Then give

11:13

us rep. They. Will. Thank

11:16

you. And so the losses happened.

11:18

As you said to be categories

11:20

of what's happened regarding the three

11:22

Pillars model for attachment work with

11:25

adults in one is that the

11:27

model has evolved. That's really important

11:29

to me into those of us

11:31

involved in the communications about them

11:34

on the applications of it. We

11:36

want this to be a living

11:38

systems, which any living system is

11:40

changing all the time. We don't

11:43

want the model to be dogmatic.

11:45

We want our model to be

11:48

open available. To respect

11:50

into value and to integrate

11:52

the best of what the

11:54

sealed of psychology in Psychotherapy

11:57

has to offer. And in

11:59

continues. The developed over time,

12:01

so there been, so there's been

12:03

an evolutionary aspect to this and.

12:06

One form that that's taken

12:08

is that were referring to

12:10

the overall model now as

12:13

Integrators Attachment Therapy. I

12:15

A T and the Can

12:17

The keyword there is integrators

12:19

which is where we want

12:21

to integrate new learning to

12:23

understanding that develops and we

12:25

want to integrate the best

12:27

of what is currently available

12:29

from the field of psychotherapy.

12:31

Obviously, there are many approaches

12:34

to therapy, many approaches to

12:36

therapy for adults with attachment

12:38

insecurity and we don't need

12:40

to start from zero. We

12:42

want to appreciate respect and

12:44

integrate the best of material

12:46

and understanding and applications. Message

12:48

from some adequately ended therapies

12:50

from cognitive oriented therapies Are

12:52

your mental Zeeshan base therapy

12:54

from even even more psychoanalytic

12:57

understandings from Buddha Psychology is

12:59

a lot that we draw

13:01

from for integrate of attachment

13:03

therapy. Else a

13:05

little bit about that the little bit

13:07

later in terms of one of the

13:09

key says that has happened within the

13:11

model in a set of methods as

13:13

to do with the order of the

13:15

three pillars. But the other significant aspect

13:17

of what's happened is that. We've.

13:19

Developed an online based training

13:22

program for. The. Foundational

13:24

level as integrate of attachment therapy

13:26

I was getting as more and

13:28

more people murmur therapists were learning

13:30

about the three pillars model for

13:33

attachment psychotherapy, attachment repair. I just

13:35

was getting lots and lots of

13:37

request to teach workshops about it.

13:39

and though I love to teach

13:42

and I'm happy to do that,

13:44

it was getting a bit overwhelming.

13:46

My colleagues in this in I

13:48

A T program Nigel Denning and

13:50

Trail Dolly who are in Australia.

13:53

They were teaching a lot in

13:56

in Australia but again we were

13:58

all recognizing. Calling

14:00

by the shield people in the

14:02

field to make this more available

14:05

and though we're happy to to

14:07

teach as I said, we just

14:09

can't be everywhere and couldn't say

14:12

yes to all of the requests

14:14

So he thought, well, Let's

14:17

take advantage of us you know

14:19

as significant aspect of our culture

14:21

now and develop an online based

14:23

training program. That presents the

14:25

foundations that we were presenting in the

14:27

introductory workshops. Am so excited that is

14:29

that No sale for both. Very excited

14:32

that you're doing that because as we

14:34

mentioned, you came down and did a

14:36

workshop. A four day workshop here. And

14:39

it was amazing and yet not

14:41

a knopf re it like other

14:43

people after they laughed at really

14:45

learning. Had a d the three

14:47

pillars a specially the ideal the

14:49

imagery cetera takes. Some. Real

14:52

ongoing training. And

14:54

your visit here at left people wanting

14:56

more rather than feeling satiated. And we

14:58

had people. Contact us as wow

15:00

About way to get training in

15:03

doing some of the specifics and

15:05

so super excited about the course

15:07

and afghan a chance to am.

15:09

Haven't done all of it but

15:11

a lot of at it. So

15:13

impressed. With. It. It's so

15:16

comprehensive and so. Thorough.

15:19

Glad you're having that experience of

15:21

a journalist. Certainly has been or

15:23

hope. We see this as a

15:25

comprehensive training program where the online

15:27

based training is the foundation. Or

15:30

we have twelve modules in this

15:33

course that covered. Foundational.

15:35

Principles: The results of early

15:38

research about attachment about how

15:40

it's formed and how the

15:42

problematic forms of Id developing

15:45

and why. There's. Sections

15:47

about treatment. what

15:50

the field has applied for treatment

15:52

during the last many decades and

15:54

we also highlight what we see

15:56

as the strings of those treatments

15:59

and limited which

16:01

serve as the foundation for the development

16:03

of the three pillars. We

16:05

give the rationale for why we think

16:07

those are particularly helpful to

16:09

integrate into the therapy process.

16:13

But beyond this comprehensive training,

16:15

you know, level one training, which

16:18

is probably about, well, around

16:21

80 or a little more than 80 hours if people go

16:23

through all of the elements of it. After

16:25

level one, we'll have level two and

16:28

level three, which will be live trainings,

16:30

live in-person trainings, that

16:33

really focus on the clinical applications,

16:36

really help clinicians to practice

16:39

and to get supervised practice

16:42

live in the context

16:45

of others who are also learning. So,

16:47

you know, that's such an essential learning

16:49

context. We don't want everything to be

16:51

online, but we really feel there's great

16:53

value in having the foundations be in

16:56

this particular program. Let me

16:58

tell you some of the elements of it, because we're

17:00

quite pleased with how we've structured it and, you know,

17:03

the thinking that went into that. First

17:05

of all, it's self-paced. There's advantages

17:07

and disadvantages to that. The advantages

17:10

that, you know, in all of our

17:12

busy lives, you know, almost every therapist I know

17:15

is full up in their practice, and it's

17:18

hard to have time to want

17:20

to continue to learn. And we've

17:22

structured it so that it's

17:25

very easy to take pieces, kind

17:27

of bite-sized chunks of each of

17:29

the modules. The lessons are relatively

17:32

short, and people

17:34

can take, you know, 15 minutes a day or,

17:36

you know, several times a week, if

17:38

that's all that they have available, and

17:40

still feel like they're taking in something

17:42

that's useful. You've really incorporated some fun

17:45

aspects of it. There's, you

17:47

know, fun videos and also really informative videos.

17:49

And some of the ones you had, some

17:52

of Alan Shore, and it's

17:54

so fun. Also, One

17:56

of our guests that are going to have been on,

17:58

and it's going to. Virtual Launch

18:00

Allen Truth I love seen that

18:02

video him he was so young

18:04

of Israeli a sweet videos but.

18:07

I. I say that because it

18:09

really is so integrally. Videos

18:11

make it compelling to want to

18:13

keep going. It's not dry and.

18:16

It's. Very engaging in for those

18:18

listeners out there that are not

18:20

therapist and are not intending or

18:22

of or therapist but you know

18:24

may not have the time at

18:26

this moment to go for this

18:29

complete training. As you'd talk

18:31

about the three Pillars in his young listen

18:33

out there you know it a still. Gain

18:36

a lot from the

18:38

knowledge. About why does three

18:40

pillars are constructed the way

18:42

they are in? What that says

18:45

about attachment and now. All.

18:47

Of us can gain from the different

18:49

elements of your model. You

18:54

let me respond to was your

18:56

first mentioned about to are to

18:58

the videos and he gauging you

19:01

you've experienced it. It's a multimedia

19:03

course which honors that. In

19:06

order to draw a season. It's

19:08

helpful to have well text with

19:11

lots of tax. We also has

19:13

videos as you high minded videos

19:15

that we made to describe certain

19:18

seizures and certain key elements are

19:20

the secret sauce and some of

19:23

the concepts that we described the

19:25

tax. We also have demonstration videos

19:27

in the Saxons about the clinical

19:30

applications. We have demonstrations of each

19:32

of the elements of the three

19:35

pillars and we also has audio

19:37

recordings. We have downloadable. Forms of

19:39

people to use in their practices

19:41

for applying the mess it's various

19:43

ways for. Gathering information

19:45

and data and keeping records about

19:48

that. That's useful for the treatment

19:50

We also has says he referred

19:52

to: External links are links to

19:54

videos on you tube that others

19:57

have. you quite

19:59

wonderfully created and made available

20:01

for free in that way. So when

20:03

we're talking about something like parental

20:05

neglect and the effect of that on children,

20:08

we have several videos, really excellent videos

20:10

that summarize the research in

20:13

a very compelling and engaging way. So

20:16

we're hoping that with this multimedia

20:18

format, different ways in, different

20:21

people have different learning styles and some

20:24

like audios and like texts, some like

20:26

video a little more than

20:28

others. And so by having them all, we

20:30

hope to reach the most number of people

20:33

and have the deepest forms of learning,

20:35

different modalities of learning. So that's something

20:38

we feel quite good about. Another

20:41

aspect that's an advantage of the

20:43

online-based program is that the

20:45

book that was published, the Brown and Elliott

20:47

book, and published in 2016, it's

20:51

so comprehensive and so rich

20:53

for, up until basically

20:55

2015, when we had to submit

20:57

it to the publisher. A lot's happened since then. The

21:00

field is continually growing and evolving. With

21:04

an online resource like this level

21:06

one courses, we can update

21:08

it immediately. So an article

21:10

comes out, a new book comes out, I

21:13

think it's really interesting and there's a place for

21:15

it in somewhere in the

21:17

course. We can just go into the backend and

21:20

add a few paragraphs, make a link to that article.

21:23

And then participants will get an email saying,

21:26

module five has been updated in this particular way.

21:28

And then they can go directly to where that

21:30

update was. So I really

21:32

love that aspect of it. So we

21:34

intend to do that. Now, this

21:37

is all online self-paced, but I wanna

21:39

mention that there's a live element as

21:41

well. We have monthly

21:43

hour long question and answer

21:45

sessions so that anybody enrolled

21:47

in the course for as

21:49

long as they'd wanna access these, can

21:52

log in, they'll get notification of the

21:54

question and answer sessions and

21:56

can join in and ask and make

21:59

comments and have. a bit of discussion

22:01

as a group of whoever wants to

22:03

participate in those, which I think the

22:05

community building aspect of this is really,

22:07

really important as well. There's

22:10

a community discussion section at the end

22:12

of each module so people can post

22:14

questions and comments. I see you posted

22:16

something the other day. And

22:19

then hopefully others respond to what other

22:21

participants post and there can be a

22:23

mutual learning. It's not just from

22:25

us and what we have offered. Everybody

22:28

can learn from each other as well. It's like a collective community

22:30

once you join it as part of

22:32

a collective sense of being

22:34

part of something. Exactly. We've

22:37

applied for continuing education credits. We're

22:40

expecting to be able to offer that for

22:42

people and of course that's useful for therapists

22:44

to have as well. So

22:47

that's an overview of the elements of the course.

22:50

We feel quite happy about it. Well, outline

22:52

if you would, like you said,

22:54

that episode 34 covers a

22:56

lot about the pillars. If

22:59

you could briefly just walk us through

23:01

the three pillars and the order that

23:03

you have them in, if

23:05

you would, and then we'll go more deeply. So

23:08

this speaks to the evolutionary

23:10

component, evolutionary thing that has happened

23:13

that I teased with earlier. And

23:16

that's that since the publication of

23:18

the book, we have inverted the order of

23:20

the three pillars. Three pillars

23:22

are essentially the three major components

23:24

of the integrative attachment therapy, what

23:27

we consider to be domains

23:30

that are very valuable

23:32

to attend to therapeutically

23:34

in an integrated way

23:36

that will most effectively and

23:38

most efficiently lead to

23:40

earned security in people

23:42

who have insecure patterns. So

23:45

we inverted the order of the three

23:48

pillars so that the first one now

23:50

is helping people enhance their

23:52

collaborative ability, which is essentially

23:54

their ability to be mutual

23:57

in relationships in various ways that...

24:00

And it's hard for people who

24:02

live in the red or live in

24:04

the blue in terms of the anxious preoccupied or

24:06

the more avoidant or dismissing

24:08

pattern. It's hard to really

24:10

engage with others in a mutual way

24:13

where each person has value and is

24:15

recognized to have a contribution, the

24:18

other and the self both. So

24:20

therapy is a relationship. So the

24:23

collaborativeness of the therapy process is

24:25

an important component too. Second

24:28

pillar is still in the second position because

24:30

when we invert three things, the middle position

24:32

always stays the same. And

24:34

that's helping people enhance their metacognitive

24:36

ability, their ability to mentalize about

24:39

their own and others' experiences, which

24:42

is ability to take perspective,

24:44

to know that if

24:46

I'm really afraid of something, I'm

24:49

just really afraid of something. It's not that that thing

24:51

that I'm afraid of is really likely to happen, even

24:53

if I'm thinking that it's likely to happen. It's

24:56

the ability to say, well, I'm really afraid right

24:58

now, I'm afraid this is gonna happen, but it

25:01

might not happen. It's just one simple example. Yeah,

25:03

like the idea of the meta, for those of

25:05

you that are familiar with the concept of meta

25:08

out there in the psychology world, it's the

25:10

thoughts about something. So having

25:12

the ability to see how we think and

25:14

feel is not existing

25:16

on its own, that we can reflect

25:19

on it. We can think, I am typically anxious

25:21

about this always because

25:23

I have this experience in the

25:25

past rather than this exact

25:27

thing is anxiety producing. So it's an

25:29

ability to reflect on ourselves. Yes,

25:32

and the term reflective functioning is another

25:34

term that's used for this category. It's

25:36

exactly right. And one phrase I love

25:39

is, it's the recognition that what's in the mind

25:41

is in the mind. We're

25:43

constructing experience all the time and

25:46

it's really helpful to know that. Many

25:48

of y'all have thought about your long-time listeners. You can hear

25:50

us like those of us when we're living

25:52

in the blue, we often feel we're right. There's

25:55

this time where the ability that this is just

25:58

the rational thing to do. A

26:00

can be really hard when we've

26:03

lived in that area for so

26:05

long to recognize that actually as

26:07

are insecure activation feeling discomfort with

26:10

being wrong. And that's much

26:12

more about what it is and the

26:14

idea that we actually are rate is

26:16

so the ability get I'm. Always in

26:18

this place where I think I'm right

26:20

and I have to learn to question

26:23

myself. Just that ability to do that.

26:25

Really? Makes a significant difference

26:27

for us, Does it? Really

26:30

does really to refine the.

26:33

Greater ability to do that. When

26:36

people start becoming more

26:38

secure, basically we're losing.

26:40

green zone that capacity

26:42

the you're describing. Helps

26:44

support the resilience of being there.

26:46

So when when something happens we

26:49

experience as a threat and was

26:51

still doesn't get we're still gonna

26:53

get pulled toward our in are

26:55

sort of save read or most

26:57

familiar end of the spectrum where

26:59

read or more blue but we

27:01

might get pulled their little bit

27:03

less we might stay there are

27:05

a little bit less long it

27:07

we can call upon these capacity

27:09

you're just described. Him as

27:11

a Cognitive capacities of the reflective

27:13

capacities. And

27:16

the third pillar is is a method.

27:18

It's the imagery method. the ideal periods

27:20

figure. Embodied. Imagery

27:22

mehsud that involves

27:25

actually recreating internally.

27:28

Experience With some of the

27:30

early formative experiences of. Attachment.

27:34

And. To help people has. Positives:

27:37

Early experiences. Instead.

27:39

Of being caught in them more

27:41

problematic one smith they actually had

27:44

led to the insecure patterns so

27:46

we help them seal themselves as

27:48

a very young child. Imagine being

27:51

with parents who could provide. All.

27:54

That was needed to help with security

27:56

and to do that over and over

27:58

again. So they guess internalize. Create

28:00

a new internal representation, a new

28:02

map, new intern, a working model

28:05

that then can get applied, and

28:07

day to day adult functioning. So

28:10

it's a very powerful method using

28:12

using embodied mental imagery. And that's

28:14

the third pillar as it is.

28:28

Or it does take a quick break

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29:59

Less to becky. So

30:01

you've gone on from this incredible book

30:03

to create a course? How did you

30:05

decide to go in that direction? And.

30:08

Can you kind of update us on where you are

30:10

now? know? Why let me

30:12

let me just make a reference

30:14

your shoutout for our collaborative work

30:16

you made reference to the library

30:18

has about as soon as and

30:20

based on our enthusiasm for how

30:22

each of us has similar ideas

30:24

and passions and imprisoned. Also each

30:26

of us has different has similar

30:29

strengths with different strengths. You.

30:31

Know Miss Lee! We thought we

30:33

would write a book together and

30:35

we started doing i we were

30:37

collaborating. It was was gratifying Hand.

30:39

We. Discovered that. Particularly.

30:42

I was orienting toward a little different

30:44

direction. The so You to went

30:46

on. To. Him and created this

30:48

amazing book is in published

30:50

imminently M S wonderful and

30:52

and and I went on

30:54

in. Developed a. Was. To

30:57

colleagues in Australia Nigel Dining

30:59

and Trail Diary a training

31:01

program for psychotherapists and were

31:04

calling it the Integrate of

31:06

Attachment Therapy Training. I

31:08

a T. And you based

31:10

on what we talked about a little

31:12

really are you understand why we're calling

31:14

it integrated to very weak We think

31:16

respect for model. That. Draws

31:18

upon the best of what's out there and

31:21

also allows our our models to change and

31:23

just when new and better things come along

31:25

are happy to integrate. That is great of.

31:28

Cashman. Therapy processed.

31:30

So I'm. One.

31:33

Of the reasons that I wanted

31:35

to do this was because has

31:37

people were reading the book and

31:39

more clinicians? We're learning about it

31:41

partly through therapist uncensored evidence or

31:43

a study on it's yes, yes

31:45

yes that the public was hearing

31:47

about this to and we started

31:49

getting a lot of requests for

31:51

referrals. And a lot of

31:53

requests from clinicians for a hey, how do

31:55

I learn about this I read your book

31:57

in it's great but I want some more.

32:00

on training and hands-on work, which of

32:02

course is important for therapy training. And

32:05

there just were not enough resources

32:07

for training everybody and for having

32:09

enough therapists for everybody. I still

32:11

get calls and emails every week

32:14

asking for referrals. And it's very hard for me

32:16

to say, well, I'm sorry, I don't know anybody

32:18

who I can refer you to now.

32:20

They're all full up, the ones who know how to

32:22

do this work because it's so effective. So

32:25

this training program, the level

32:27

one, which is what we've just released, is

32:30

an online-based multimedia program

32:34

that is designed to be self-paced.

32:37

If people go through all of

32:39

the resources in this program, the level

32:41

one online-based program, probably

32:44

about 80 hours required total,

32:48

eight to zero. So it's pretty big and we have

32:50

text in it. There's a lot of text. Text

32:53

is based on what's

32:55

in the book, but it's updated a

32:57

lot. And again, book was published in

32:59

2016, which means it was brought to

33:01

the publisher in 2015, almost

33:04

10 years ago now. There's been

33:06

a lot learned since then in the field

33:09

and by us as individual clinicians. So

33:11

the program is updated.

33:14

There's videos, video lessons,

33:17

where I and my colleagues will

33:19

present kind of the secret sauce that's

33:22

in the text, like speaking

33:24

directly about some of the most

33:26

important elements and principles. We have audio, we

33:28

have video

33:31

and audio. We also have

33:33

a lot of links to external resources.

33:35

If people want to read more or

33:38

watch videos that are based on YouTube,

33:40

tremendous resources out there. So

33:42

if we're talking about, for example, parental

33:45

neglect, there are links to

33:47

a couple of videos, really good videos that highlight

33:49

what that's all about. Boy, I saw that.

33:51

And that's, I was going to say that.

33:53

So as a user of this

33:55

course, one thing I was impressed with was it

33:57

wasn't just the same old videos that we've seen.

33:59

seen a thousand times. I mean, it

34:02

was very engaging and helped

34:04

kind of keep my interest, you know.

34:07

We consider ourselves and I think, you

34:09

know, pretty well read and trying

34:12

to stay up to date on these things. So

34:14

I love being surprised and

34:16

I think that that's one of the appeals when I

34:18

first opened your book and I'm having a very similar

34:20

experience with your course. Another thing I

34:22

liked, by the way, was it doesn't

34:24

let you just skip ahead. Like, yeah,

34:27

yeah, yeah, I know that, you know, you want to skip

34:29

three chapters or something and get to the heart

34:31

of the matter or something and it doesn't let you,

34:34

which I love. So it's very

34:36

cumulative and I thought that that

34:38

was a very, just a sophisticated,

34:40

important component that really

34:43

helps you walk through it. But

34:45

those videos, those different resources, I

34:47

noticed a Therapist Uncensored episode is

34:49

in there. Several. Several. So

34:52

that was fun but that's an example of like, that's

34:54

an hour of depth based

34:57

on the content that you were just sharing. So. And

34:59

you know what you're highlighting about not being able to

35:01

jump ahead, that can be frustrating for

35:03

some people initially. It's like, well, yeah, I know this topic.

35:05

I want to move ahead. We know Bobi.

35:07

Yeah. But we're getting feedback from

35:10

and release from participants that

35:12

really, really validate our choice to have

35:14

it be locked and require people to

35:17

go sequentially. Similar to what you said.

35:19

100%. We're getting comments like, you know,

35:21

you know, I consider myself very

35:23

familiar with the attachment in the field. But you

35:25

know, the way you put this together, the way

35:27

you, what you chose to highlight here, it's like

35:29

I'm looking at it in a little different way

35:32

now or in a big different way. And

35:34

it feels fresh and refreshing. And I

35:37

love hearing that. Yeah. I've

35:39

experienced the same thing. There was times I won like,

35:41

oh, you know, if I need to read about Bobi one

35:43

more time. But the truth is the way

35:45

that it's presented and that's what the way it

35:47

is for all of us is the way it's

35:49

presented is helping us flow

35:51

with through why implicit memory is so important

35:54

and how it gets impacted. And it helps

35:56

you understand some of the things we were

35:58

talking about at the beginning. about

36:00

why collaborativeness can be difficult, but it's

36:02

so essential to be at the beginning

36:04

of it. And I think

36:06

as we walk through, without

36:09

being able to skip, we learn a

36:11

little bit more each time that builds

36:13

on itself. And what I like is

36:15

that we're collaborating together because we're building,

36:18

we have to kind of come through it with you. And

36:20

I think that adds to the whole feeling of

36:22

the course. And I've been so excited for

36:24

you. It was like you mentioned us

36:27

being able to kind of help each other, and

36:29

then we kind of launched in different directions.

36:31

And the powerful part is we

36:33

launched and landed at the same time that you're

36:35

like doing, this is really coincidental, and I

36:37

guess in a way, but that you're landing with the courses,

36:39

our book is coming out, is one

36:41

reason why we decided to do this recording because I

36:45

feel like that your work

36:47

really, really is

36:49

an opportunity for therapists out there

36:51

who love this stuff, have been

36:53

listening, and really can

36:55

understand how essential it is to

36:58

look at early attachment and

37:00

really stop and consider that they have a

37:03

place to get trained. And

37:05

it can be in any place in the world, and

37:07

it's really, I think you're making a very big addition.

37:10

That's right. And the study groups

37:12

that we did, it was the same thing. Remember,

37:14

I contacted you, I'm like, they have questions,

37:16

would you like to come in? And I

37:19

think that you did an extended group off

37:21

of one of those groups. So

37:23

yeah, there's this hunger for this information, which

37:26

I think is wonderful. I

37:28

agree, Anne, that like, so you went

37:31

towards training therapists, which is wonderful. And

37:33

then our direction, we wanted to stay closer to

37:36

kind of the podcast audience, meaning a

37:38

mix of therapists and the general public

37:41

to make it more widely accessible.

37:43

So I think that they compliment

37:45

each other so well. Because part

37:47

of what's in the book are also

37:49

techniques to help make this

37:52

complex Material, including

37:54

information processing and implicit memory

37:56

and all those things. Very

37:58

Easy for therapists. To convey

38:00

the client, it is interesting

38:03

that you know we started

38:05

coming. Both of these things

38:07

were Huge projects. Massive projects.

38:09

And then here we are launching and exactly

38:12

the same time. It's really very exciting. Who

38:14

I'm in the program. We

38:16

highly recommend your books, but

38:18

we also you in terms

38:21

of convergence and mutual support.

38:23

In the section on models and ways

38:26

of looking and understanding about attachments. We.

38:28

Really highlights of modern attachment

38:30

spectrum. You developed

38:33

and praise it very very

38:35

strongly as a non pathologizing.

38:38

Way. Of understanding the attachment

38:40

dynamics. And. That's really, really

38:42

important. And you you both communicate

38:45

that so clearly him so effectively

38:47

and without seeming in any way.

38:49

I love how you highlight that

38:51

people who are. In. Secure in

38:53

the say clinical signs, They.

38:56

Can still have secure states of mind. You.

38:58

Know they can still securely relayed sometimes in

39:00

some situations now when they get activated when

39:03

there's a sense the ones you know, the

39:05

middle a guess stirred up and there's a

39:07

sense of threat. Well, that's your state of

39:09

mind is gonna. Diminish. And

39:12

know go toward hyper activation, are

39:14

under activation of the attachment system

39:16

and have their usual pattern of

39:19

defense. As. Will secure people great.

39:21

It's like the Care. People go in the

39:23

preoccupied states yeah and we are travel up

39:25

and down. The way even if are

39:27

secure and secure we will have

39:29

a tendency toward a particular place

39:31

on the spectrum will have a

39:33

center of gravity. Ideally. That's

39:35

in the secure range in the green zone

39:37

As as you highlight. But. Stresses

39:40

impinge on us all. And.

39:42

even if in our our central tendencies

39:44

in the green zone we can shift

39:46

toward the blue or we might shift

39:48

toward the red and if we're in

39:51

a relatively stable in that zero men

39:53

that green domain and zone well we'll

39:55

probably get back to that more quickly

39:57

where we might not go as far

39:59

into the spectrum. A little more resilience

40:01

and a little more recovery capacity,

40:04

but that's just normal and I love how

40:06

you communicate that. Thank you. I think that's something

40:08

we so have in common. That was one of

40:10

the draws towards one another, I believe, because it's

40:12

very easy to get really scared when you start

40:15

looking at neuroscience and the permanency and the end

40:18

to us of them. But I'm

40:20

imagining the listener right now and

40:23

they're excited about your course. Like

40:25

you said, this is level one and I

40:27

want to mention now and we'll mention again

40:29

at the end that of course we are

40:31

going to partner and for those therapists out

40:33

there that are listening, sign up

40:36

through our show notes page which

40:38

is going to be therapistsandcensor.com slash

40:41

tu2, what was

40:43

the number of the episode? 234. 234, tu234 and that'll take you

40:45

right to the show notes page and then

40:50

the link will be right there for

40:52

you to sign up for this course

40:55

with a discount. And David, thank you

40:57

for extending that to our listeners. It's

40:59

wonderful. But just going back

41:01

real quickly, so this is the level one and then

41:03

what else do you have in mind what's going to

41:05

be happening? Yeah, so level one is

41:07

the foundations course. It gives the background,

41:09

the cognitive, valuable

41:11

information and presents

41:14

the therapy process through

41:16

description and also videos and audio so

41:19

that people can really get a sense

41:21

of that of all three pillars.

41:24

So it's a comprehensive foundational

41:27

resource and because

41:29

for clinical training it's valuable to have

41:31

much more direct in person

41:33

practice, there will be levels two

41:36

and three as well. Those

41:38

will be live trainings. So the

41:40

level two will be a three-day workshop, live

41:42

workshop. Level two is for people

41:44

who've completed level one and want to continue. Level

41:47

three is for people who have continued completed

41:49

level two and want to continue.

41:51

Level three will be a two-day

41:53

workshop plus I

41:55

think five group consultation

41:58

supervision sessions. and

42:00

two individual sessions.

42:03

And if people complete and

42:05

satisfactorily demonstrate ability,

42:09

then they will sort of

42:11

graduate into the capacity to

42:13

be registered as

42:15

an integrative attachment therapist in our

42:17

particular approach. Let

42:19

me say here too, one of the reasons

42:22

that we wanted to do this was that

42:24

because the ideal parent-figure imagery process, it

42:27

really is effective. And it's kind

42:29

of new and unusual and not

42:31

so hard to get the basics of.

42:35

So a lot of non-therapists actually, people

42:37

who haven't trained as

42:39

therapists, have been applying

42:41

this, have been offering this, have been saying they're

42:44

ideal parent-figure coaches or ideal

42:46

parent-figure facilitators. And

42:49

there are YouTube videos put out by lots

42:51

of people saying, we're

42:53

showing you, we're guiding you through the ideal

42:55

parent-figure imagery. And Dan Brown even

42:57

has one on there, which he put

42:59

there many years ago, just as a

43:01

general generic demonstration of that. It's

43:04

gratifying that there's a lot of interest in it. And

43:06

I'm sure a lot of people are being helped by

43:09

it, even when it's presented by

43:12

a non-clinician. But

43:14

the problem is for people who have

43:16

more problematic conditions, psychological

43:18

mental health conditions, if

43:22

they're not with a therapist who's

43:24

been trained in holding

43:26

the space for somebody with, say,

43:29

a personality disorder or

43:32

post-traumatic stress disorder or

43:34

complex PTSD, everything

43:36

may seem fine, but the imagery itself,

43:39

being engaged with that, might lead

43:41

to dissociation or might lead to a flashback

43:43

or might lead to a reactivation

43:46

of some addictive problems. If

43:48

the person is not a therapist, the person won't know

43:50

what to look for as the

43:52

danger signs, the warning signs of that, and

43:54

won't know what to do in response to

43:57

help that person. Frequently, I get...

44:00

Contacted by people who have. Been.

44:02

In the circumstance by clients who said hey,

44:04

you know I was working with someone with

44:06

the ideal parents a year and then I

44:08

started dissociating and having nightmares every night. Person.

44:11

Didn't know what to do so. I'm

44:13

calling you. Too. Many

44:15

of those circumstances so. We.

44:18

Wanna train more clinicians in this

44:21

approach? And consumers, they were.

44:23

Know what to look for? Yeah, So.

44:25

Sounds like it's gonna be a little while though

44:28

since this is just starting to actually have your

44:30

registry up and going, Is that right? We've

44:32

got a number of people now

44:34

who are fully qualified by we

44:36

don't have the website up yet

44:38

that gives those people's names were

44:40

of worldwide where people in various

44:42

countries who are qualified now but

44:44

they're also because they're stored so

44:46

many of them and gradually as

44:48

people take the level one training

44:50

and then go through levels two

44:52

and three that list of people

44:54

who has. A. Capacity is working

44:56

this way. Will. Increase you

44:59

know and we're fully welcoming of

45:01

anyone who may be identifies as.

45:04

A. Semantic Psychotherapist you know, focuses

45:06

on sensory motor psychotherapists. For.

45:09

Example, We don't expect people to

45:11

say okay now I'm going to

45:13

just to integrate of attachment therapy.

45:15

But. If people who have been trained

45:17

in other models and methods and and

45:19

approaches. Wanna. Say well, I

45:22

do this approach and I've trained in

45:24

I A T, so I, when appropriate,

45:26

can apply the three pillars in this

45:28

particular way. And. Then, when

45:30

it's not necessary are not appropriate.

45:32

I can draw from what else

45:35

I've learned from and trained with

45:37

and I love the year it's

45:39

You're farming community of people who

45:41

really feel motivated and inspired. To.

45:43

Work from this. Direction. Like he

45:45

said, once somebody get certified is

45:47

a model and they have access

45:49

to been put out there and

45:51

you know joining in such as

45:53

a sense of a community to

45:56

build on. this. There. That's

45:58

an important piece of a because

46:00

I mentioned referred earlier to on.

46:03

A collaborative aspect of the of

46:05

the process or that training itself.

46:07

I'm thinking one them in particular

46:09

person that I trained. Who

46:12

are has become quite skilled at this and

46:14

and he brought something new into the model.

46:17

In are we in the imagery process? When

46:19

we think about. How the

46:21

imagined parents figures? Will be

46:23

in terms of in ways

46:25

of being that support attachments

46:27

security. We. Have five

46:29

conditions that promote attachment security.

46:32

We've drawn from Marines worse

46:34

maternal responsiveness category that she

46:36

highlighted as foundational for the

46:39

development of security. Most children.

46:42

And. Based on her work and

46:44

research and other people's research. We've.

46:46

Developed this list of five primary

46:49

conditions. providing. Protection.

46:51

To. The child. Oh my gosh, I had

46:54

a samurai's isn't. I

46:56

think so because I use the

46:58

acronym past psst the I felt

47:00

of this is a protection attendant.

47:03

Soothing. Security Something

47:05

a D was on. Hold

47:08

on! Don't. Tommy. Ah. export

47:10

exploration. No smell and self development.

47:12

It was in there somewhere. Well

47:14

p s right then then

47:16

he as you said but

47:19

he is expressed a delight

47:21

express. That A D s have think

47:23

it is a stress the light that the

47:25

ice which is such a lovely one. Young

47:27

and then the last one is the. This.

47:30

Is that's the one that they export. Import support for

47:32

like support for exploration and discovery

47:34

Yeah one of the benefits of

47:36

this of looking at in this

47:38

ways that you know though the

47:41

first for always that the parent

47:43

is to provide. it was

47:45

something that's relational for the child

47:47

and on a positive internal experience

47:49

for security the last one is

47:51

encouraging exploration and discovery actually encouraging

47:54

moving away from the parents figure

47:56

so that the self can have

47:58

new and different experiences and can grow

48:00

and evolve in that way as well. But

48:03

anyway, one of my trainees, he

48:05

now in addition to having the parent figures

48:08

engage in these five conditions that

48:10

promote attachment security when the client

48:12

is imagining being a young child,

48:15

he also sets a context for play. Imagine

48:18

now that you're in some setting where you're

48:20

really getting to play freely and these parents

48:23

are encouraging you and supporting you. So

48:25

this really draws from Winnicott's highlighting

48:28

of how important play is for a

48:30

child and what problematic

48:32

things happen if child doesn't

48:34

get encouraged and have the opportunity for

48:36

play and what can really

48:38

benefit, what benefits come when parents

48:41

are able to promote that and encourage that.

48:44

So he does that in his imagery with

48:46

people now and really, really we're integrating

48:48

that more into the system as

48:51

well. Another advantage of using the

48:53

imagery process, the ideal parent figure

48:55

imagery process in the therapeutic process

48:58

toward earned security is

49:00

that there

49:02

are certain limitations that occur

49:04

in the therapeutic room

49:07

and the therapeutic diad that can be overcome

49:09

through the use of imagery. So for example,

49:11

I think this is a powerful example. A

49:14

lot of people who are insecure

49:18

as adults had some form

49:20

of neglect as a

49:22

child and often

49:24

physical contact was either not

49:26

safe with parents

49:29

or parent figures, you know, caregivers

49:31

or it was not available. So

49:34

for example, every time, say a child,

49:37

every time he or she or they wanted

49:40

connection with the parent, the parent rebuffed

49:42

them, pushed them away. Can't you see I'm busy now?

49:45

Go play with your toys. That

49:47

person likely developed a more

49:49

avoidant or dismissing pattern, you

49:51

know, the attachment needs were

49:53

consistently rebuffed, rejected. But

49:56

even though that pattern usually indicates

49:58

some form of... keeping

50:00

distance from relationship, the longing for closeness

50:02

and the longing for connection is still

50:05

there. And that usually starts

50:07

to emerge in the

50:09

therapy process as this

50:11

work continues. The

50:14

longing's there, but I

50:16

think it's important to just acknowledge that often

50:18

it's not felt, but it doesn't

50:20

mean it's not there. That the

50:22

dismissing individual often disconnects from that

50:24

feeling of longing and can... That's

50:27

the eye roll and I can't believe we're doing

50:29

this and I don't really need this and that

50:31

kind of response. But what you're saying is

50:34

that the longing of that young

50:36

child is implicitly still in the

50:39

experience of the adult. Yes,

50:42

it's still there, but it's gotten

50:44

submerged and that's an excellent... I'm so glad you

50:46

put... you made that point. So

50:48

it's still there, it never goes away, but

50:50

it's kept away from experience because it's too

50:53

painful to feel that longing and to not

50:55

have it met. In

50:57

the therapy process, that longing

51:00

can start to become more

51:02

present as a direct experience

51:04

and the pain of that wanting. And

51:08

sometimes a client may

51:11

want that longing to be met by the

51:13

therapist. Well, can't you... Can I

51:15

just sit in your lap? Can't you hug me

51:17

now? Can't you put your hand on

51:19

my head and tell me it's going to be okay?

51:22

That wish is fine, that wish

51:24

is healthy, but fulfilling

51:27

that in the therapy room is

51:29

problematic in terms of physical

51:32

contact between the therapist and the client.

51:35

If the therapist says, well, I understand you want to

51:37

sit on my lap and be cuddled by me, but

51:40

we can't do that

51:42

here. There's some limitations in

51:44

the therapy process. It could get too complicated.

51:47

Even though that's true and it's

51:50

honest that the therapist communicates that, the

51:53

client is likely to experience that as a

51:55

rejection. Once again, I wanted

51:58

contact, He's not there for me. Now.

52:01

In imagery when decline is imagining

52:04

being a young child and imagining

52:06

being with new and different parents.

52:09

There. Can be as much physical contact

52:11

as is healthy and safe and wanted.

52:14

By. The client as child. Yes

52:16

this mother sees that you really want

52:18

her to hug you and when you

52:20

go to her feel how he she

52:22

puts her arms around you notice what

52:24

that's like ceiling your body. What that's

52:27

like how as as heal right now.

52:30

Well. She pauses, he hugs me so tired I

52:32

conceal her, squeezing me and I feel the warmth

52:34

and then I cry because I'm so happy. Yes,

52:37

Really see a house happy she

52:39

is to be hugging you and

52:41

delighted She is about you feeling

52:43

safe and scene and comforted like

52:46

this. So in the imagery. The

52:48

body will feel that. And that

52:50

can that so ceiling for somebody with

52:52

this history of that kind of absence

52:55

for that kind of neglect. Can't.

52:57

Happen between the therapist and the client, but

52:59

it can happen in the imagery held in

53:01

the larger frame. By. The therapist.

53:04

What and as humans were

53:06

for else has activated in

53:08

the younger, more implicit south

53:10

rather than the adult South

53:12

said they ceiling of connecting

53:15

to that young young. Memory

53:17

is so important in Fmr

53:19

Israeli of them powerful have

53:21

a data show that they

53:23

imagination can activate the areas

53:25

of our brain. At.

53:28

F very similar if not exactly

53:30

to the physical act of it

53:32

happening so that which highlights why

53:34

you want to be really trained

53:37

at this because the training itself

53:39

can help you help your clients

53:41

go much more deeply into that

53:44

imagined felt safe space. That's

53:46

really lovely. So true. The.

53:49

Neurological and psychological correlates

53:51

of of remembering and

53:53

imagining new different experiences

53:55

are very, very similar.

53:58

So. If we imagine new experience. that

54:00

creates internally and at an implicit

54:03

level more active,

54:05

more effective internal representations of

54:07

that very positive experience. I

54:10

love when we talk about imagery because

54:12

it's such a powerful tool in

54:15

so many ways. In fact, David,

54:18

you and I did an episode,

54:20

I think it was episode 120,

54:24

and it was finding security

54:26

in healing attachment. And

54:29

in there we used imagery. You helped

54:31

us walk us through imagery to help

54:34

us find security and attachment

54:36

healing during COVID-19 when we

54:38

were all feeling

54:40

so isolated. And

54:42

I think that was a really powerful

54:45

example about how imagery can

54:48

really shift our body

54:51

and the activation. What do you think? Yeah,

54:53

what we did there was, we

54:55

drew from the

54:57

same principles that the ideal

55:00

parent figure embodied imagery practice

55:03

draws from. But instead of

55:05

imagining being a child and

55:07

imagining being with caregivers who could provide

55:10

for security enhancing

55:12

experiences, because of

55:14

the isolation that we were all

55:17

experiencing during the COVID time, which

55:20

I myself included was

55:22

experiencing, we use

55:24

the imagery to imagine being

55:27

very directly connected with someone that we were

55:29

missing or wanting to feel a little more

55:31

close with, and to notice

55:33

the details of that, and to feel in

55:35

the body what would happen as

55:38

we had that sense of

55:40

closeness with the other. So

55:42

I think, yeah, we did that together. We sort

55:44

of did a demonstration of that. It was quite

55:47

rich. It really was. It really was. I encourage

55:49

everyone to check that out. You know,

55:51

this notion again of collaboration, our

55:53

book is coming out April 30, 2024. And one of

55:56

the premises

56:00

is this idea of creating secure

56:02

ripples so that it's

56:04

a counter action to this despair

56:07

of polarization, this contagious, you know,

56:09

giving up that is happening or

56:12

in tribalism and the teams

56:14

that are forming. And

56:16

you are somebody that has been certainly working

56:18

towards building these secure spaces and letting those

56:20

ripple out for sure. I think that's part

56:23

of why we were drawn to each other.

56:25

But I also want to mention you're going

56:27

to be at the virtual launch, which is

56:29

May 1st, along

56:31

with some other people. Have you

56:33

seen the list? Lots of amazing people. Hey, were

56:36

you excited about seeing? Do you remember any

56:38

of them? Oh, Alan's

56:40

roof. Yeah. Carol George.

56:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

56:45

you said Dan, Dan Siegel might even be there.

56:47

Dan Siegel said he's, he has

56:49

a somebody in town visiting. It's on his

56:51

calendar. I don't know if he's coming, but

56:53

he's, he was very supportive. Stan

56:56

Tatkin and Kristin Neff are

56:58

going to come. Lori Gottlieb,

57:01

Linda Tai, Liz Plank, really

57:03

interesting. And other guests

57:05

of the podcast that have been on before

57:07

that our listeners love. And

57:09

we just, again, it's like this

57:11

notion of building community. So we are so

57:14

beside ourselves excited

57:16

about the community support of the launch

57:18

of this book. We

57:20

also want to support everybody there. Everybody's going to

57:22

talk about, you know, your latest and greatest, and

57:24

we're going to create something that we'll give

57:26

to all the audience members that updates

57:29

them about what everybody's doing, you know?

57:31

So in this mutually supportive collaborative way

57:33

again, that we,

57:35

that we're launching in community. I

57:37

mean, I want to just pinch

57:39

myself. It's, we wouldn't have ever imagined

57:42

such a show of support and a

57:45

perfect example of coming

57:48

together as community because also the audience

57:50

is drawn into this book for their

57:52

reasons, right? It's like a siren, not

57:54

the book itself, but these messages that

57:56

we're talking about around building security and.

58:00

building that muscle of hope and

58:02

being able to do something instead of

58:04

dissociating and giving up or you

58:07

know joining on the bandwagon against the other

58:09

out there that is freaking us out and

58:12

that we're told will threaten us, you know,

58:14

whether it be a party political

58:16

party or populations of people immigrants, whatever

58:18

it is that is that

58:21

we're being set up against So

58:23

that's a long way of saying and mentioning

58:25

again the virtual launch may 1st and

58:28

you've been so supportive through

58:31

our writing process and You're

58:33

the first person that stepped up and gave us

58:35

a little blurb to just have something That

58:38

we then built up on and you just

58:41

can't say enough appreciation about

58:43

that So can we

58:46

come back to the idea of

58:48

the collaborative? part in

58:50

the pillar one because That

58:52

is so important of a concept

58:54

and it sounds so easy and yet

58:56

it's not how do we get collaborative

58:59

with one another? I

59:01

just want to echo everything that you've said Well,

59:03

big shout out to sue for a

59:05

lot of the work around the launch and the idea

59:07

about the launch And

59:09

I guess i'm gonna have to

59:11

throw in just that one Echoing of

59:14

the secure relating concept like when we

59:16

were talking about the Collaborativeness

59:18

and that being the first element. I love

59:20

that that moved to the first element of

59:23

the pillars, I really liked that transition and

59:27

I really see as to what you're saying

59:30

is that that's what we're all trying to do

59:32

is to help the world become more collaborative Because

59:34

that is the first step no matter what

59:36

you're so right in moving back into

59:38

collaboration out of certainty Out

59:41

of the vices and into if we

59:43

don't all as a community not just

59:45

the community that's going to be on

59:48

the virtual launch But as a community

59:50

not focus on if we can center

59:52

on collaboration before anything else And

59:55

we can center on coming back into the mill

59:58

and to secure relating with one another and the

1:00:00

channel that we need to do, whether it's standing

1:00:02

up and finding our ability to have a voice

1:00:04

or it's recognizing that we don't let anyone

1:00:07

else in because we think we're right. Like

1:00:09

that both of those are the contribution

1:00:12

and that we need to like

1:00:14

integrate and find our voice as well as

1:00:16

listen to others and that is

1:00:18

what this is all about. So that's what we're going to

1:00:20

be celebrating when we do this virtual

1:00:22

launch and that is what we really

1:00:24

hope our book has the biggest impact

1:00:27

on. We cover individual

1:00:29

and relationships but we also

1:00:31

then end with society because that's

1:00:34

you know a real passion. That's right.

1:00:37

securerelatingbook.com and what

1:00:39

about your contact information David? How

1:00:41

can people find you? Yeah, well the

1:00:43

website that describes level one

1:00:46

is integrativeattachmenttherapy.com. integrativeattachmenttherapy.com.

1:00:51

Yeah, all one string. Yeah. And

1:00:53

you will find that in our show notes so

1:00:55

you can quickly link to that in our show

1:00:57

notes too. You know and just in terms of

1:00:59

integrative I want to highlight that your book is

1:01:02

just beautifully integrative. You have brought

1:01:04

in the neuroscience, the clinical phenomena,

1:01:06

the nonclinical, you know ways that

1:01:08

this gets represented, the individual,

1:01:11

the relational, the group, the

1:01:13

societal, the collective. You know

1:01:15

you in such clear language

1:01:18

and with lots

1:01:20

of great examples make

1:01:22

this clear to people. Much more

1:01:24

than I can do. That's one of the reasons I

1:01:26

probably went off in the more training

1:01:29

program for clinicians development but this

1:01:31

book is unprecedented. It's definitely

1:01:33

going to make a huge impact

1:01:36

not just in the field of attachment but I think

1:01:38

in the society at large and I'm going to be

1:01:40

a champion of it as much

1:01:42

as I can. That means a lot.

1:01:45

It's such a good pair. This

1:01:47

course, our book, you'll

1:01:50

be set, you'll be all set. Thank

1:01:54

you so much for joining David. It's so much fun to see

1:01:56

you and I am too with the

1:02:00

I think we're soon I can say that we're just

1:02:02

so excited about the work that you're

1:02:04

doing and we want to continue to collaborate in

1:02:07

any way we can. Happy, happy

1:02:09

about that. We will. Yes.

1:02:12

All right. Thank you so much. And don't forget,

1:02:14

sign up through our website. There'll be a discount code there and

1:02:17

find out more. All right. Check

1:02:19

it out. Thanks so much for joining us today

1:02:21

and we'll see you around the bin. Alright. Service

1:02:29

Uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue

1:02:31

Marriott. This broadcast is edited by

1:02:33

Jack Anderson.