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0:38

A quick warning, there are curse words that are

0:40

unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If

0:43

you prefer a beeped version, you can

0:45

find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org. From

0:49

WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life.

0:52

I'm Tobin Lowe sitting in for Ira Glass. There's

0:55

a story in my family that I love. It's actually

0:57

a story about love. And it's

0:59

one that I both fully enjoy and

1:01

is also the source of many years

1:04

of romantic frustration. It starts

1:06

with my mom as a teenager growing up in

1:08

San Francisco, Chinatown. A woman at

1:10

the church she went to comes up to her one day and

1:12

says, I have a nephew

1:14

who's just perfect for you. And

1:16

I'm going to set up this date. I mean,

1:19

you're just made for each other. You have to

1:21

meet each other. And she was determined

1:23

to make that happen. Maybe

1:25

you can see where this is going. This

1:27

is, in fact, my very own How I

1:29

Met Your Father story. Anyway,

1:32

my parents were both invited to a party where they

1:34

could see each other for the first time. So

1:37

there's a room full of people and I don't

1:39

know which one he's going to be. And so

1:42

I'm sort of scanning the room and I look

1:44

at some people and think, oh, well, maybe

1:47

that one has a really good

1:49

personality. So you're saying there were

1:51

some real uggos in the room. Well, they were just,

1:53

you know, they probably have

1:55

a great personality. So

2:00

when I finally got introduced to

2:02

him, I just was so relieved

2:05

that he was good looking.

2:08

It met my expectation of what

2:10

I hoped it would be. It

2:12

was like this huge sigh of

2:14

relief. My

2:20

dad was 19 at the time, my mom 18. Their

2:23

first date was at a French restaurant. She

2:26

liked his good looks and that he was kind. He

2:28

liked how quietly assured she was. Afterwards,

2:31

they went to the movies, saw the graduate,

2:34

watched Dustin Hoffman bust Catherine Ross out of

2:36

that chapel, her bouquet still in hand. By

2:40

the end of the day, they knew they had something special.

2:43

But the part of the story that has stuck with me

2:45

is this moment my mom talks about a couple of months

2:48

after that. My mom and

2:50

dad ended up at the same college and they'd

2:52

spend every night together, hanging out at each other's

2:54

dorm rooms. One night, he

2:56

walked her to the elevator and he kissed her. We

2:59

were saying goodbye at the elevator and had

3:01

a hug and kiss. It was like something

3:03

magic about that moment was like, this

3:06

is going to work. They were

3:08

married within the year and they

3:10

just have one of those marriages. They've

3:12

been happily together for 53 years. The

3:15

part that gets me, they both knew it

3:17

was right. As I grew up

3:20

into an adult who dates, my dad was the one

3:22

who said, don't worry, you'll figure it out. But

3:25

my mom, on the other hand, she had more

3:27

specific advice whenever I called about how

3:29

a boyfriend and I had broken up or that dating

3:31

was hard. Her advice,

3:34

if you're with the right person, it should just

3:36

feel like magic. If you

3:38

don't feel magic, then it's time to bail. Can

3:41

you tell me what you meant by magic

3:43

as best as you can describe it? You

3:47

look at the person and

3:49

you feel that against all odds,

3:51

you're always going to, that's

3:54

the one for you. And there's

3:57

no way of defining.

3:59

what that will be, I think,

4:02

until it happens. And if it

4:04

never happens, then I'm just not

4:06

sure that's the relationship, at least

4:08

that I would, you

4:11

know, want for you. So

4:13

the bar for magic is high. Yes.

4:16

The bar for magic is very high.

4:19

I wanted what my parents had, so

4:21

I followed the advice. I'd

4:24

go on dates, dates that were perfectly fine, mind

4:26

you. The conversation would be easy,

4:28

the company enjoyable. But at the end,

4:31

I'd think, nope, didn't

4:33

feel it. No magic. Or

4:36

I'd convince myself that I did

4:38

feel the magic and then think everything,

4:40

even warning signs, were proof of that

4:42

magic. Case in point,

4:44

for my 25th birthday, an ex-boyfriend of mine

4:46

gave me a card. Inside

4:48

was a couple of buy 10, get one

4:51

free coupons he'd filled up from his work lunches.

4:54

He was giving me his freebies. And

4:57

I wish I was lying when I say that my response

4:59

was, wow, he ate

5:01

10 hail and hearty soups for me? Magic.

5:11

This is how most of my dating life as a 20-something

5:14

went. But if my mom

5:16

was on one shoulder telling me to look for magic,

5:18

on the other shoulder was Elizabeth, one of

5:20

my best friends. When

5:23

it came to dating, she adopted a

5:25

very different attitude. Her thought

5:27

was, you have to be practical. It's

5:30

not about searching for a big feeling. It's

5:32

more about data collection. Elizabeth

5:34

was sometimes going out on three first

5:36

dates a week from OKCupid. It

5:38

got to a point where when we talk about the guys she

5:40

had dates with, it was easier to

5:43

nickname them as OK, like

5:45

I met them on OKCupid, plus adjective.

5:48

So it was like, OK, stand up. Because

5:50

I think I went on a date with a stand

5:52

up, or like an aspiring stand up. OK

5:55

Med student. OK,

5:57

Occupy Wall Street. I don't know if you overhand.

6:00

I remember that guy. I do

6:02

remember that guy. He kept pulling out

6:04

his phone during their date to tweet about the movement.

6:06

Let's see how many retweets we get for this. I

6:09

remember him saying on our second date, and I was

6:11

like, this isn't gonna happen. This

6:13

is very strange. Elizabeth's advice

6:16

for me went something like this. Dating

6:19

is like being an anthropologist. You

6:21

go on a bunch of dates, you notice the

6:23

bits and pieces that maybe you liked from each

6:25

guy, slowly sharpening the picture of what type of

6:28

person you might have a successful relationship with. For

6:31

her, going on a lot of bad dates was

6:33

just part of the process. You're

6:35

saying it's a numbers game. I'm saying it's a numbers

6:37

game. I'm saying you have to

6:39

like, you can't be disheartened by the fact

6:41

that your numbers are gonna look bad. You

6:44

have to feel like, what have I got

6:46

to lose? A

6:49

little bit less precious about every

6:51

interaction. And her

6:53

practicality, it worked. Elizabeth eventually

6:56

did meet someone. All

6:58

that dating she did, she says it allowed her to

7:00

pay attention to all the small things she liked about

7:02

him. They got married a couple years

7:04

ago. I officiated the wedding. So

7:09

why am I telling you all this? Because

7:11

I feel like for anyone who has ever

7:14

been single and wanted to find love, and

7:16

I'm talking about people that want lifelong partnership,

7:19

you have received advice from at least

7:21

one of these two frustratingly opposed camps.

7:25

Camp 1, the look for magic people like

7:27

my mom, and camp 2, people

7:29

like Elizabeth who say it's more like math.

7:32

Math is inexact, but I think you get my drift. They

7:35

say use your head, not your heart, be

7:37

practical. Two warring

7:40

factions, both with their champions, and

7:42

a bunch of us in the middle just trying to figure out

7:44

which way is up. Who has

7:46

it right, will love find a way, go

7:50

with us. Thanks

7:54

for watching. See you next week. Bye-bye.

8:01

Act one, 10 things I require

8:03

about you. So

8:06

we're going to start off the show today with someone

8:08

who is very much in the math camp and

8:11

who finds herself challenged by someone who could

8:13

not disagree more. The

8:15

math person, her name is Zarna Garg. Her

8:18

story starts when she was in her 20s. She

8:20

was single, living in Cleveland, and

8:22

the fact that she was single totally bothered

8:25

her. This was in the late 90s,

8:27

by the way. You know, those

8:29

years were the peak years of the TV

8:31

show Friends. Do you remember that show? Of

8:33

course. That show was the

8:35

scariest show to me. Wait,

8:37

why? Because no one

8:39

was ever getting married. They were dating. They

8:42

were not dating. They were dating. They were

8:44

on a break. They were off the break.

8:46

Then they were dating other people within the

8:48

same friend room. Like, to somebody like me

8:50

who came from the world that I came

8:52

from, that was a horror show. Zarna

8:55

moved to the US on her own when she was 16, leaving

8:58

behind her family in India and a likely

9:00

arranged marriage. She wanted to be

9:03

independent and to go to college. She

9:05

got into law school in Cleveland, so she was very much

9:07

on track. But at

9:09

the same time, she still had this

9:11

idea in her head that marriage provided

9:13

a solid name. It was something she

9:15

wanted deeply. So she found

9:17

an online dating site for Indian singles and decided

9:19

to post an ad for herself. Having

9:22

an ad to find a husband, not so unique in the

9:24

world Zarna's from. But what

9:26

was unique was the fact that she was hosting for

9:28

herself. The other ads

9:30

were from aunts or moms trying to arrange

9:32

matches for their daughters and nieces. Not

9:35

fair enough. She was taking the reins. And

9:38

her ad was, to put it lightly,

9:40

specific. What she wrote

9:42

was not a single Z, so much as a

9:45

list of qualifications. It was like a series of

9:47

bullet points. She remembers it like

9:49

this. You have to be

9:51

very serious. You have to have proof of your

9:54

seriousness. I want to see what you

9:56

do. I even would like to see

9:58

some tax returns. you know, what

10:01

job prospects you have. I mean,

10:04

it was nuts. She

10:06

also said, you have to be brilliant. That

10:09

was a big one. Because I figured

10:12

if I met somebody brilliant, life would

10:14

be fun. And whatever problems would happen,

10:16

we would work them out together, because

10:18

he would be brilliant enough to figure

10:20

that out. So

10:24

brilliance, like, like book smart. Oh, so I

10:26

was very specific about that. I was like,

10:28

I need to see proof of your brilliance.

10:32

You know, I need to see where you went

10:34

to college or whatever you're doing with your life.

10:37

You know, also, I was like, you must have a

10:39

good mother because I don't have a mother and this

10:41

is my one chance to fix that. She

10:44

also figured they should have accurate data about

10:46

her. She said, I'm a student,

10:48

I'm short, only five feet

10:50

tall. I'm not the skinniest person. I

10:53

do think that my ad, as obnoxious

10:56

as it was, had an element of

10:58

honesty to it. Like an

11:00

Indian ad would have been fair and

11:02

lovely, peaches and cream complexion. And, you

11:06

know, tall, skinny. I never used any of

11:08

those words because none of those words would

11:10

have been true for me. You

11:12

know, there might be somebody who hears your

11:15

story and thinks like, wow, that is like

11:17

kind of a ruthlessly practical way to go

11:19

about finding a partner

11:21

and finding love. But they're

11:23

right. They're right. It

11:25

is a ruthlessly practical way and it should

11:28

be because marriage is a contract. And

11:30

like all contracts, you should think twice

11:32

before getting into it. I

11:35

don't believe that just falling

11:37

blindly in love is

11:40

the answer. Apparently

11:46

there were a lot of people who felt

11:48

they met the criteria. Her inbox

11:50

became flooded with messages all from men who

11:53

wanted to meet in person. Sarna

11:55

picked a few of them, said, sure, let's meet,

11:57

but you have to come to Cleveland. And

12:00

a surprising number said yes. Men

12:04

flew from all over different parts of

12:06

America to come meet me in Cleveland.

12:09

And I was actually pretty clinical about

12:11

it. And as were they, mostly once

12:13

they realized what the vibe was, like

12:16

we met at a McDonald's in

12:19

Cleveland that had like open

12:22

windows. So it felt safe.

12:25

And if they were all

12:27

highly educated, doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs,

12:30

and for one reason or another, it wasn't

12:33

working out. They like me. I didn't

12:35

like them or whatever. Or I like them. They didn't like

12:37

me. What did she care? She

12:39

had an inbox of hundreds of messages from

12:41

other suitors who were just as qualified for

12:44

the position of husband. What's

12:46

that saying? I think it comes from Shakespeare

12:48

or maybe the Canterbury Tales. Thank

12:51

you. Next. It's

12:59

in the middle of all these messages that she gets

13:01

a different kind of message. And

13:03

this person does not offer up his credentials

13:05

or his tax returns. He simply writes,

13:08

this isn't a real ad, is it? Are

13:10

you a real person? The message goes on

13:13

to make fun of her. It feels like a troll. And

13:16

if this were a movie, the camera would zoom

13:18

out of Zarna's window at her house in Cleveland.

13:21

Maybe we would see a crude animation of a

13:23

globe rotating on its axis. A

13:25

dotted line moving from the U.S. going first

13:27

to Europe and zeroing in on Switzerland until

13:30

the camera would zoom in on an office building

13:32

in Zurich. Because that's where the

13:34

message came from. A computer programmer working

13:37

late one night at his office, his job was

13:39

fixing a Y2K bug for his company.

13:42

I know, so 90s. His

13:44

name was Shalib. He was single. And

13:47

when he found Zarna's ad while randomly surfing

13:49

the internet, he thought it was ridiculous. He

13:52

called over his colleagues and said, hey, get a load

13:54

of this girl. I mean, it was

13:56

three of us that looked at it because I called my friends

13:58

and then we were just making fun of it. We

14:01

were like, I don't know who this girl is. What

14:03

were the elements of it that you were making fun of in

14:05

the ad? I mean, the

14:07

seriousness, the, you know, girl who is like

14:09

this much work, like, even before

14:12

she has met someone, can you imagine what

14:15

she would be like in a serious

14:17

relationship? It's like start

14:19

to finish work, work, work, and no fun. Cut

14:22

back to Cleveland, small house in the

14:24

suburbs. Zarna types back. Yeah,

14:26

I'm real. He replies. You

14:29

know, what makes you think that you'll find someone, I

14:32

doubt anybody would take on that amount of

14:34

seriousness at such a young age, because there's

14:37

almost no fun in your classified. I

14:39

was like, yes. And

14:42

I'm actually on a

14:45

mission to do something. What are you guys doing? She

14:47

was like, I don't know who is the bigger loser. Someone

14:51

who is seeking out

14:54

a life partner like myself or someone who

14:57

is just sitting in a random room programming

14:59

and surfing young

15:02

women on the Internet. He's

15:04

like, so have you gotten any responses?

15:06

I was like, as a matter of

15:08

fact, many, many responses. You want to

15:10

see some? And I forwarded him a

15:12

whole bunch of ads, responses that I

15:14

had. And he

15:16

was like, I can't believe this. And I said,

15:19

why are you wasting my time? I was then

15:21

getting irritated because my ad clearly said, only

15:23

contact me if you want to get married. Shalab

15:26

was not interested in getting married. His

15:29

life was filled with travel and friends

15:31

and skiing. Also, he lived an

15:33

ocean away. He was not

15:35

the solution to Zarna's problem, but

15:37

they kept emailing. It was mostly them giving each

15:39

other a hard time. This went

15:41

on for weeks. And he would

15:44

then be like, hey, did you end up meeting that

15:46

guy? You know, the one you forwarded

15:48

me and I would be like, yeah, I met him, but I

15:50

don't think it's going to work. Yeah,

15:52

whatever. So we became friends even

15:54

despite my every intention to not

15:57

make friends. a

16:00

little bit keeping tabs on your progress too

16:02

then. He was, he was, I

16:04

don't know why he was so curious, but he

16:06

was. Oh Zarna, I

16:09

think we all know why he was so curious. After

16:18

so much back and forth, Shalab had this

16:20

feeling. Like at this point, I

16:22

can't not meet this girl. Well

16:25

he said he really wanted to meet me, and I

16:27

told him that I was moving to New York for

16:29

my first job, and because I

16:31

thought I would have a higher likelihood of meeting

16:33

an Indian guy in New York than in Cleveland.

16:37

And he was like, I really want

16:39

to meet you. And I said, OK, you know, I

16:41

can meet you at the airport. Zarna

16:43

says, this is when I'm landing in New York

16:45

from Quavland. Shalab says he can

16:47

get a flight that arrives around the same time.

16:50

Zarna says, OK, but I'm only willing to say

16:52

a quick hi at the airport. She

16:55

did not want to waste time on friend dates. Because,

16:58

you know, as I said, I was mission driven.

17:00

I had like the minute I reached New York,

17:02

I had like two o'clock I was meeting this

17:04

guy, four o'clock I was meeting that guy. So

17:06

there wasn't going to be a lot of time.

17:08

And why was I meeting this guy from Switzerland

17:10

anyway? Because there was no real

17:13

interest there in that way. And

17:15

he said, fine, I'll come to New York and we'll

17:17

meet at the airport. It's fine. He said, I just

17:19

need to see that you're real. They

17:22

found each other at the airport. Zarna

17:24

remembers thinking he was cute, but also

17:26

he immediately annoyed her. He

17:29

informed me at the airport that he had

17:31

nowhere to go while in America. So

17:34

now I'm like, now you're stuck with me.

17:36

Like, I don't have a place to take

17:38

you. I barely had

17:40

a tiny apartment for myself. And

17:43

he's like, but I don't know. I'm here with

17:45

my toothbrush and my passport. I have nowhere to go.

17:49

Zarna says, fine, you can stay with me.

17:52

She had made arrangements to stay at her cousin's

17:54

apartment. He could crash. And

17:56

then in the cab on the way there,

17:58

something about the anticipation meaning face to face,

18:01

and then finally seeing each other, something

18:03

happened. When we met

18:05

from that point on all

18:07

the way to the apartment, we couldn't keep our

18:09

hands off of each other. It was really passionate.

18:12

They kissed. There was a spark. But

18:15

they also both agreed there was nowhere for a

18:17

relationship to go. Zarna was not

18:19

going to let him get in the way. She

18:22

kept her scheduled dates for that day. There were two of

18:24

them. She dropped Shalab off at

18:26

the apartment and said, Stay here, do not move.

18:28

I have a husband to go meet. And

18:31

just like her routine in Cleveland, she arranged for them

18:33

to meet in public places. First

18:35

in the lobby of the building she was staying at,

18:37

then onto a coffee shop. What

18:40

she had not planned on was that Shalab would

18:42

not stay at home like he promised. Instead,

18:44

he crashed both of her dates, would just

18:46

conveniently show up in the lobby or at

18:48

the coffee shop. He would

18:50

just be like, Hi, I'm Shalab. There was

18:53

no explanation that made it even more suspicious.

18:56

Oh, he introduced himself to your dates. And

18:59

my dates were like, Is this your brother? I'm

19:01

like, No. You know,

19:03

because it's hard to explain to them what

19:05

exactly was the relationship. I would be like,

19:07

No, no, he's just a friend he's visiting.

19:09

But you know, clearly it looked odd. Was

19:12

your was your intent you think to to throw off

19:14

the date a little bit? A little bit to throw

19:17

off the date. But you know, remember, I was early

19:19

20s, even though I had not much to show for

19:21

it, I was fairly arrogant

19:23

myself, because at least in my mind,

19:25

I was one of the top colleges

19:27

in India, I was doing a job in

19:29

Zurich making good money. So

19:31

I was certainly not insecure,

19:34

if anything, on the other side of it, in

19:37

terms of being more arrogant. I see. But

19:39

there was an energy of like, let me see you this guy. Yeah, let

19:41

me see who this guy is. And what is so special about

19:43

it? Dr. Guy. Zarna

19:50

could have been annoyed by all this, but

19:52

she found somehow she wasn't. By

19:55

then, I had a friendship

19:57

enough with him that even when I was honored

20:00

date I was thinking about him, like I wonder

20:02

what he's doing. So my brain

20:04

was already like all over the

20:06

place about what exactly are we doing here? Sarna

20:09

ended up spending a couple of days with Shalab.

20:12

They walked around the city, talked about their lives,

20:15

debated about politics and how they

20:17

felt about America, shared how they both

20:19

grew up in India, how they had both left home.

20:22

He had his own loneliness. He had

20:24

his own really difficult journey. He is

20:27

an ambitious guy. I think something

20:30

about my ad and my world made

20:32

him feel like, oh my God, this

20:35

sounds like my world. You

20:37

know, and something about dealing with him

20:40

made me feel like he's

20:42

not so dissimilar from me and how

20:44

I think. They both

20:46

remember a turning point in that first visit, which

20:49

brings us to the classic part of stories like

20:51

this, when it starts to rain. Titanic

20:54

had just come out. I remember we

20:56

went for that movie in the rain. She

20:59

used to love getting wet in light

21:01

rain, would refuse to carry an umbrella.

21:04

You know, it was, you know how

21:06

New York rain is, right? It was pouring rain.

21:09

And we'd just finished a three and a half

21:11

or a long movie where

21:13

Jack was dead and

21:16

Rose was going to go on with her life. And

21:19

I'm like, that was probably the

21:21

moment. And I'm thinking to myself,

21:24

you know, that is how fickle life can

21:26

be. And do I really want to not

21:28

have this woman in my life? Probably that

21:30

would be the one moment when I thought

21:34

that this might be the woman for me. And

21:38

then of course, as everything we do ends

21:40

up in a fight, we fought about it too, because

21:43

like, there was space

21:45

on that raft. He could have

21:47

been saved. So

21:50

then we start fighting about that and whether she

21:52

should have thrown the necklace into the water or

21:54

not. It sounds like you

21:56

kind of even enjoyed disagreeing with him. Oh

21:58

my God, to this day. day. My

22:01

favorite thing to do is to fight with my husband.

22:04

If you haven't caught on by now, I suppose that's a

22:06

spoiler. Within a couple of

22:08

months of that visit, Shalab Bazzarna and

22:10

Emerald Greenring. They were married

22:12

a little over a year after he sent her the message

22:14

that made her so mad. They've

22:16

been together now for 25 years. If

22:19

I can do anything, I want to go

22:21

on a long walk and have a robust

22:23

fight with him about everything. About

22:26

the politics, the movies, you know,

22:28

I can. Yes, of course. Absolutely.

22:30

Yeah. What is it about the fighting

22:33

that you enjoy? He is

22:35

really brilliant. That's the one thing I got

22:37

right. Bazzarna

22:46

admits that, yes, some magic snuck into

22:48

her life. But she sees

22:50

this whole story largely as a victory

22:52

for math. She wrote down exactly

22:54

what she wanted, and she got it. Shalab

22:57

actually does match a bunch of the things

22:59

on the list. For example, he has a

23:01

good mother, and Sarna really loves her. Shalab,

23:05

though, sees the story totally differently. He

23:07

thinks the fact that they met through

23:09

this bizarre set of circumstances. It's an

23:11

argument for magic. Which

23:13

is funny. I'm used to couples disagreeing

23:15

about why they broke up. Who

23:18

said what and who's to blame? But I've never

23:20

known a couple who disagrees about the thing that

23:22

brought them together. And

23:24

this disagreement over math versus

23:26

magic, practicality versus romance, it's

23:29

continued into everything about their lives. Sarna

23:32

still considers herself the pragmatic one in

23:34

the family, Shalab more of the dreamer.

23:36

And now that they're parents, it

23:38

means they're giving their kids competing

23:41

advice. He will tell my kids, oh, you

23:43

should go fall in love. Like, no, don't

23:45

fall in love. This is what

23:47

has caused all the problems in the world.

23:49

Everybody falling in love. So

23:51

yes, he is the romantic and it's like,

23:53

I can't stop it. And I have to

23:56

work around it with my kids and remind

23:58

them that they're not. And that's why I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. their

24:00

dad is wrong entirely right and

24:03

our life is proof that I'm right. Well

24:05

and I could also say our life is

24:08

proof that it my romanticism has provided me

24:10

with a very great career a great family

24:12

good health kids that are healthy

24:14

so what's so wrong with that? I

24:18

mean you see why he's a

24:20

problem what's wrong with

24:22

that is actually my deep thinking and

24:25

planning is what made all of that

24:27

happen it's not your romantic thinking am

24:29

I right Dovan? I

24:33

mean I don't think he can take sides

24:35

like that I am scared to take sides

24:37

here. If Ida was here he

24:39

would agree with me. I

24:46

don't know that I can assortatively say who has it

24:48

right here but watching them each

24:50

dig in their heels on their own point of view it

24:53

seems like together they balance each other

24:55

out and I imagine they

24:57

force each other to see the world a little differently

25:01

or if not at least they

25:03

can argue about it. So

25:18

this episode is actually a rerun and

25:20

in the year since we spoke Zarna

25:22

and Shalab have started their own podcast

25:24

about love and family it's

25:26

called the Zarna Garg family podcast it's

25:29

hilarious and you can find it on

25:31

your podcast app or YouTube. Coming

25:34

up a case for magic from

25:36

the luckiest and maybe most unrelatable

25:38

among us those jerks sorry

25:40

people who fell in love at first

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27:02

Hey there, it's Ira Glass from This American Life. And

27:04

the very first place that you can get the

27:07

newest episodes of our podcast, it's a full day

27:09

and a half before they appear anywhere else online,

27:11

is the New York Times audio app. In

27:14

the app you also find the best of our archive,

27:16

hundreds of episodes, plus This American Life

27:18

shorts, which are handpicked stories for when you

27:20

win something, you know, short, that's

27:23

only at the New York Times

27:25

audio app. You can download it

27:27

at nytimes.com/audio app and subscribe to

27:30

start listening. It's

27:34

This American Life. I'm Tobin Lowe.

27:36

Today's show, math or magic, stories

27:38

of people finding love by trusting some

27:41

mystical force in the universe or just

27:43

being practical about it. And

27:46

as we were putting together this show, every

27:48

time we talked about this theme, it riled

27:50

up the staff. People had a

27:53

lot of big feelings about it. Turns

27:55

out lots of people here were trying to figure

27:57

out this very thing in their own lives. Which

28:00

brings us to act two, crazy stupid

28:03

love. So when you're

28:05

talking about the magic camp of people, there's

28:08

a group that emerges as maybe

28:10

the most magic of magic. I'm

28:12

talking about people who say that from the moment they

28:14

saw their partner, they just

28:16

knew, knew for sure that this

28:18

was their person. One

28:20

of our producers here, Aviva de Kornfeld, is

28:22

skeptical about these claims, and

28:24

also a little envious. Here's Aviva.

28:28

I put out a call to see how

28:30

many people out there had really felt this

28:32

thing, I assumed, was reserved for rom-coms. And

28:34

let me tell you, there are a lot of you.

28:37

I got over 700 responses. It

28:40

seems like all day, every day, people

28:42

are out there running into their soulmate.

28:45

In airports, on buses, at bars,

28:48

one person met their partner on the side of the

28:50

road after they'd gotten a flat tire. Another

28:53

couple met at band practice. This

28:55

one woman I talked to met her husband in the middle

28:57

of the woods. She accidentally wrote his

28:59

phone number down wrong, and they still

29:01

ended up together. Liz

29:04

met her person in a friend Ingrid's kitchen.

29:07

She was 17 at the time, and they were

29:09

hanging out, chatting, when Ingrid's brother

29:11

came downstairs with a guy Liz had never

29:14

seen before. I turned around,

29:16

and he looked at me and I

29:18

looked at him, and we just went, oh my

29:20

God, like both of us simultaneously just

29:22

looked at each other, and boom. That's

29:25

it, I've met the woman. What? Yeah.

29:29

And there was just this

29:31

awkward, awesome silence.

29:35

Liz's mum was there when this all

29:37

happened, talking to Ingrid's mum. And

29:39

my mum turned to Ingrid's mum and just

29:41

said, oh my God, did you feel that?

29:44

And Kate, their mother went, oh my

29:46

God, yes, that's electricity right there. And

29:49

yeah, we just knew from that moment on,

29:51

we're the ones for each other. How

29:54

did you know that? I don't

29:56

know, it was just this feeling. weeks

30:00

later. We're still together today and

30:02

it's what 30-something years later. Oh my

30:05

gosh. I know. Stories

30:13

like Liz's drive me insane because

30:16

I love them. I get so

30:18

swept up by the romance and

30:20

yet they couldn't be more foreign to

30:22

me. It's the certainty

30:25

that Liz describes. I

30:27

don't understand it. What

30:29

did it physically feel like? You

30:31

know I can feel it as if it was

30:33

happening right now. It's just

30:35

like a tightness in the chest

30:38

and like an adrenaline rush. Like

30:41

you've just seen a really big spider or something.

30:43

How do you know, I don't know, you're 17. How

30:45

do you know it wasn't just hormones? I didn't. Hmm.

30:47

I didn't look it very well could have been but

30:50

at that time it was so real. It

30:52

was just like being smacked over the head with a hammer

30:54

and like that's the one. I've

30:57

never felt anything like that. No

30:59

matter how wonderful the person I'm dating

31:01

is or how infatuated I feel, I've

31:04

never been able to shake that gut feeling telling

31:06

me this is not forever.

31:09

In fact, all of my relationships have

31:12

ended in some way or another because of

31:14

my lack of certainty. Everyone

31:16

in my life is exhausted by my

31:19

endless romantic dithering. Days

31:21

after my last breakup, my dad made a point to

31:23

tell me that if I thought I would find someone

31:25

better than my ex, I was

31:27

mistaken. These

31:36

people who get that lightning strike moment

31:38

with the big boom and flash of

31:40

recognition, they really feel

31:42

like God's favorites. The lucky ones, somehow

31:45

insulated from all the doubt plaguing the

31:47

rest of us. Part

31:49

of me, maybe the jealous part, is

31:52

skeptical of stories like these. Like,

31:54

how could you possibly know in two seconds

31:56

you don't know anything about the other person?

32:00

likely that you're retrofitting certainty onto the

32:02

early part of their relationship from the

32:04

comfort of your established one. So

32:07

many of the people who responded to

32:09

my call out just seemed like they

32:11

were imposing magic on all kinds of

32:13

utterly ordinary meet-cutes. But

32:15

then I talked to Megan, who seemed a

32:17

lot like me. When she was in

32:20

her late 20s, like I am, she was living

32:22

in New York, like I do. And,

32:24

like me, feeling increasingly concerned

32:26

she would never meet her life partner

32:28

and kept finding herself saying things like

32:30

this. Well, I'm going

32:32

to be single forever. Like, this sucks

32:35

and I hate it. And, you

32:37

know, I just kind of resigned myself to

32:39

like, whatever, I'll just, you know,

32:42

do my own thing. And I mean, I

32:44

always, I didn't mind being alone. And then,

32:46

of course, she met someone. One

32:49

afternoon while she was working as a waitress, a couple

32:52

of guys walked in and sat at the bar. She

32:55

spotted them immediately. Well, to

32:57

be honest, I thought his friend was

32:59

cuter. But the moment

33:01

that we started talking to

33:03

each other, there was

33:05

no doubt. So I wouldn't say

33:07

it was love at first sight necessarily, but it was

33:09

definitely love at first, like, conversation.

33:12

Like, the minute he opened his

33:14

mouth and the minute that we started like,

33:16

kind of bantering back and forth, I

33:19

just knew that I was

33:21

going to marry him. I just knew it. And

33:24

I almost started to panic because,

33:27

you know, you don't know if the other person feels

33:29

the same way. This guy,

33:32

Jeff, did feel the same way. By

33:35

the end of her shift, Megan was certain

33:37

Jeff was her person. But

33:39

she already had plans to go on a date with someone else

33:41

that night. So she went out. And at

33:43

the end of the night, I took him

33:45

back to my house and I slept with him because

33:48

I knew that that was the last person that I

33:50

was going to sleep with before I married Jeff.

33:53

What? Really? I did.

33:55

I was like, I'm gonna fuck this

33:57

guy. I know I'm never gonna like. fuck

34:00

anybody else again, because I'm going to marry

34:02

that other guy that I just met. You're

34:04

like, this is my last oat to sew.

34:06

This is my last oat to sew. This

34:08

is my last one-night stand that I'm ever

34:10

going to have, and I'm going to go for it.

34:13

Meghan got a call from Jeff the next morning while

34:15

she was still lying in bed with her oat. He

34:18

asked her out, and a few days later,

34:20

they went on their first date at a rodeo. And

34:23

that night when we were at the rodeo, he leaned

34:26

over and was like, you know

34:28

I love you. I know, I

34:30

love you too. You're saying it's sort of

34:32

like matter of fact, like obviously we love each other.

34:34

Is that what it felt like? Yeah,

34:36

it was like, yeah, no shit. Like,

34:38

duh. You know, I mean, it was

34:42

truly obvious from the end of the

34:44

first day that we met. That is

34:47

so crazy to me. Oh

34:49

yeah, 100%. Had

34:51

you ever felt that certainty before? Never.

34:55

Never. Never ever. No. Never.

35:00

Meghan sounds so certain, which

35:02

makes me wonder if perhaps some people are

35:04

just wired for certainty, and I'm not one

35:06

of them. Hearing

35:09

these stories feels like window shopping for love

35:11

at a store that's closed. I

35:13

can see all these beautiful things, can imagine what

35:15

it might be like to wear them, or

35:18

how life might be different if I own them. I

35:21

can't actually try anything on. Are

35:30

you and Jeff still together? Jeff

35:32

and I are not still together. We

35:36

actually just recently were legally separated.

35:40

The best way I can describe it is

35:43

that, you know, I met

35:46

Jeff day drinking in a bar on like a

35:48

Tuesday at like 3pm. He's

35:53

a big drinker, and he has some

35:55

problems with addiction. I

35:58

wasn't able to. weather

36:02

that storm with him after trying for

36:04

many years rehab and you

36:07

know, we have kids and I just

36:09

couldn't do it anymore. And I honestly

36:12

that's sort of

36:14

the heartbreaking thing about it is that I

36:16

thought we'd be together forever. We both did. Oh,

36:20

I'm so sorry. Yeah.

36:23

Does breaking up with Jeff shake your sense

36:25

of certainty that you'd had all those years

36:27

ago? No, not

36:30

at all. Really? Not

36:32

in the least. It doesn't make you feel

36:35

like you were wrong. Like you misread something.

36:38

No, no, not at all. I

36:42

find Megan convincing because

36:44

even after all that, she's

36:46

still certain about the connection they had. It

36:49

was real. I've

36:56

been thinking of certainty as a kind of guarantee.

36:59

If you had it, everything else would fall

37:02

into place. But

37:04

there is no guarantee. I

37:06

get that certainty doesn't always hit you over the

37:08

head like a hammer. It can take time.

37:12

But however you get there, it still

37:14

seems worth trying to find because

37:16

how lovely to get a break, however

37:18

brief, from wondering, is this

37:21

right? I'd

37:23

like to feel that. Aviva

37:38

de Kornfeld is one of the producers on our show. Three.

37:47

He's all that. So

37:49

I want to introduce you to this kid I first

37:51

spoke to a year ago when this episode was recorded.

37:54

His name is Cal. There's a couple of

37:56

things Cal really wants you to know about him. I

38:01

live in New York City. I live

38:03

with my parents and my cat. I

38:06

love cats. I have a

38:08

lot of follow-up questions. Okay, first of all, what is

38:10

your cat's name? Spider. He has

38:12

a white spot on his chest. Actually, one

38:15

on his chest and one near his butt.

38:18

The things I want you to know about Kyle, he's

38:21

charmingly straightforward, both serious

38:23

and unserious. And also,

38:26

I also hear that you have your

38:28

first boyfriend, is that right? Yes. First

38:32

love. I think if you're looking

38:34

for a champion of magic, this is the

38:36

primordial ooze that magic crawls out of. There's

38:39

no feeling like that first time you like someone

38:41

and they like you back. It can

38:44

feel like a little miracle. Now,

38:46

Kyle's only 11, so having a

38:48

boyfriend really just means hanging out at

38:50

school, texting a bunch. They

38:53

first met at their school's Gender Sexuality

38:55

Alliance club. He was really nice.

38:57

He helped me settle in and

39:00

I really liked him. I

39:02

began to have feelings for him. Around

39:07

Thanksgiving, I texted him and

39:09

told him I liked him. The next

39:12

day, he texted back and told me he

39:14

knew it and that he liked me too. He

39:17

then asked if I wanted him to

39:19

be his boyfriend. I said, hell yes. What

39:22

do you like about him? He's hilarious. He

39:24

comes up with the best jokes and

39:26

the best ideas and he makes me

39:28

laugh. I should also

39:31

mention their co-workers. We're also

39:33

on the school's paper together. Kyle's

39:35

boyfriend, he's his editor. I

39:38

didn't have the heart to tell him that this was maybe

39:40

not healthy, but, you know, it seemed to be

39:42

working out for them. He's my editor in

39:44

the Just for Fun column. I

39:47

make a series of comics about Spider

39:49

called Spider Cat Comics. The first

39:51

one came out in the first paper two

39:53

weeks ago and I think

39:55

it was pretty good. Given

39:58

that he's your editor... Does

40:00

that mean that he gives you critiques

40:02

or notes on the things that you

40:04

make? He does. And

40:07

what kinds of notes does he give you back on

40:09

your comics? He likes them. They

40:12

said they're pretty creative and

40:14

cool. That's very supportive.

40:17

It is. I'm really glad I have him.

40:27

I can tell Cal is writing a high.

40:30

He's close to that pure magic that happens at

40:32

the start of a relationship. It's

40:35

that place where you feel like you've got it all figured out.

40:38

I asked him if he had any advice for other people

40:40

about how to get there. Tell them you

40:42

like them. See what they say. If

40:45

they don't like you back, it may be hard

40:47

for you. But at least you

40:49

took a chance. And with

40:51

taking a chance, it helps. It

40:53

really helps. Believe me, I've been through

40:56

that before. I took the

40:58

chance. And

41:00

believe me, not everyone gets it on the

41:02

first time. Most

41:04

people don't get it on the first time. But

41:08

it sounds like you're asking people to be brave. I

41:21

originally wanted to talk to Cal because he was

41:23

experiencing love for the first time. But

41:26

then, a couple of weeks after we talked, I

41:28

got word that something had changed. Cal's

41:31

boyfriend broke up with him. He

41:33

just said, flat out, over text, I'm

41:35

breaking up with you. And I said,

41:37

what? Why? And he

41:39

explained he wasn't really feeling it with me. And

41:42

that wasn't going to work out. And then he

41:44

stopped texting me. And then I yelled at

41:46

him. Just to clarify, he called

41:48

him a son of a bitch. And

41:50

then I blocked him. Oh,

41:52

wow. So it was not a good

41:55

breakup then. Yeah, it was

41:57

not friendly. just

42:00

be friends after that, but it seems he

42:02

doesn't even want to remember I exist. Before

42:06

this, I actually pictured a bit of a future

42:10

with him, but I'm guessing he didn't

42:12

feel the same. Talking

42:14

to Cal now, he's a changed person. All

42:17

that boldness, how much he trusted his heart.

42:20

He's not as sure now. Your heart

42:22

can lead you to someone who

42:24

you supposedly like, who's funny and

42:27

cute, but you're

42:29

not always the best person for you. I

42:32

don't know what to do. I don't

42:37

want to be punished into darkness and shut

42:39

down forever. Why does the

42:41

world have to be like this? I

42:43

wish I had the answer, Cal. I

42:45

don't know why it has to be this way,

42:48

but I also know it won't be like this

42:50

forever. Cal

42:56

says he wants to take a break, not try to

42:58

find a new boyfriend for a while. And

43:01

he's going to take a different approach the next time around.

43:04

He says before he gets back out there, he wants

43:06

to do some research. He wants

43:08

to Google articles that'll tell him more about how

43:10

to date, how to meet people. He's

43:13

got a plan. Which

43:15

to me, sounds like a magic person

43:17

moving the needle ever so slightly over

43:19

to math. Do

43:22

you think that if you

43:24

had to choose one, trusting your

43:26

head or your heart, which

43:28

one would you choose, do you

43:30

think? I would choose head. Head

43:33

always has the best instincts. Your heart

43:35

just leads you, as I said, through

43:37

rose-colored glasses. Your head tells you

43:40

more practical. Cal's

43:42

shift in this moment. It makes sense to

43:44

me. The times I've been

43:46

dumped, the last thing I wanted was for someone

43:48

to tell me to lean into my feelings more.

43:52

Because like Cal, I didn't trust my heart. I

43:54

wanted someone to tell me that there were hard facts

43:57

to finding love. A process that could

43:59

be enacted. that didn't rely on my

44:01

dumb feelings. That's the

44:03

thing about the two camps. The allure

44:05

of each is that they offer a pass, and

44:07

depending on where you are, each one may call

44:10

to you at a different time. But

44:12

Cal says, he's not all the way gone. He's

44:15

still making room for his heart whenever it's

44:17

ready to try again. As

44:19

I said, if he didn't have it, he wouldn't

44:21

find love. Also, it's really

44:24

weird that heart is represented as

44:26

love because it's an organ. Also,

44:28

the heart shape isn't even what

44:31

it looks like. It looks more

44:33

like this blobby, melty, oval

44:36

thing. I agree, Cal. Sometimes

44:40

none of this stuff makes any sense at all. Act

44:52

Four, How to Leave a Guy in 10 Days. So

44:56

far, we've talked a lot about how there can be

44:58

magic at the beginning of a relationship, but

45:00

there's another place that magic can pop up, and

45:03

it's a place you might never think to look for it. Our

45:06

next story is about someone who's come to

45:08

believe that you can find magic, no true

45:10

joy, in a breakup. Here's

45:13

producer Diane Wu to explain. I

45:15

was once in a 10-year relationship where the question

45:17

of, is this what I really want,

45:20

started to creep in around year four. And

45:23

so for six years, this was

45:26

the big, unmagical and uncalculatable question

45:28

of my life. When

45:30

do you stay and when do you go? Eventually,

45:33

I ended it. And since then,

45:36

I've been extra wary of being in the

45:38

wrong relationship again. And maybe

45:40

as a way to stay sharp, alert. I

45:43

like hearing about how other people deal with this kind

45:45

of decision. The

45:47

writer Marie Phillips has a very specific

45:49

approach to this question. Think

45:51

about it like you're at the movies. I

45:54

have never regretted walking out

45:56

of a movie. I have many

45:58

times regretted not walking out. out of

46:00

a movie. Not finishing things, it's

46:02

one of the great joys of life. I've

46:06

never walked out of a film so I don't know the

46:08

feeling. You've never walked out of a

46:10

film? No, I feel like

46:12

I signed up for this and maybe

46:16

something good will happen still. Have

46:24

you ever got to the end of a film and

46:26

thought I wish I hadn't wasted two and a half

46:29

hours of my life on that? Yes,

46:31

for sure. On

46:34

the whole. But it literally has never occurred to me that

46:36

I could have left. Like,

46:39

if the first half hour is terrible, it's

46:41

so unlikely to get good. And

46:43

that is the point at which you can just get

46:46

up and go. And you never wonder more

46:48

about what happened or how they've brought

46:50

home or any of that? No.

46:54

No. Yeah. Marie became

46:57

this cheerful lever of relationships

46:59

fairly recently. She discovered

47:01

the joy of walking out of things, actually,

47:03

on a first date. He

47:06

was a film director and asked her to see a

47:08

movie. A 3D movie

47:10

by Jean-Luc Godard. It

47:13

wasn't just normal 3D, like when you see it in

47:15

like a Marvel movie. He was doing

47:17

things like your left eye would

47:19

be still watching one image and then he

47:21

would turn the image on your right eye.

47:24

So your right eye would suddenly be seeing

47:26

something completely different. Hello.

47:29

Um, I feel like my stomach keeps

47:31

turning. I'm just thinking about it. Yeah.

47:33

So it's nauseous just to hear the idea

47:35

that can you imagine if I'm sitting in

47:37

there and I'm like, I

47:40

feel sick within minutes. I mean,

47:42

really fast. I thought I feel

47:44

sick and I don't want to be in here. So

47:47

I just said to

47:50

him, I'm

47:52

going to leave now. It

47:54

was exciting. Marie felt cool and

47:56

powerful. He stayed. She

47:58

went and got a glass of water. wine at the

48:00

bar. It ended up being

48:02

a great date. After the film on the ferry

48:04

home they had their first kiss. Two

48:07

weeks later the director told her that he loved her.

48:09

It was the first time any boyfriend

48:11

had ever told her that. Six

48:13

months later they were living together. We had

48:16

a great time. He you know he is extremely

48:19

funny, he's very charming. He

48:22

was a really delightful person. He was just

48:24

a joy to be around. When he would

48:26

come home I'd feel like a puppy that

48:29

had been left. I'd be

48:31

bouncing with excitement to see him. He

48:35

got on well with my family, my

48:38

friends liked him. You know

48:40

he was we got on really really

48:42

well. And leaving movies

48:44

midway it became their thing together.

48:47

They would do it all the time.

48:49

I'm telling you all of this because a few

48:52

years in things got rough and

48:54

Marie had to decide whether or not to walk out

48:56

of the relationship. What happened

48:58

was the director said he wanted to

49:01

have an open relationship. Marie

49:03

was game to try it out. She loved

49:05

him. She thought maybe she'd change

49:07

and I would start to feel okay. Or

49:09

maybe he'd change. But nobody

49:12

changed. She lived

49:14

for a year in indecision going back

49:16

and forth trying to make it work. I've

49:20

been there. I don't recommend it.

49:23

My indecision looked like finding myself

49:25

reading the same advice column over

49:27

and over recognizing the advice

49:29

was for me but never

49:31

following it. I could

49:33

never tell if it was me or the

49:35

situation that needed to change. In

49:38

Marie's case all that back and forth

49:40

ended in one moment when it all became clear

49:42

to her. She realized she

49:44

didn't like the movie anymore and that it wasn't gonna

49:47

pick up in the second half. It

49:49

was during a conversation in their apartment. And

49:52

I remember at the time feeling this extremely physical need

49:54

to be as far away from him as I

49:56

could possibly get. In that

49:58

moment I felt the opposite of love

50:00

because in a way love for me is

50:03

the feeling that I want to be close. And

50:05

then the opposite feeling of that is like I

50:08

just got I need to get out of here. I need

50:11

to be as far away from this person as I could

50:13

possibly get. Marie walked

50:15

out of their apartment and kept walking in

50:17

one direction until she couldn't go any farther.

50:19

A few days

50:21

later she officially ended the relationship. I

50:24

mean that sounds like a terrible experience but also

50:27

it's like but it's also

50:29

like so rare that moments are so

50:31

clarifying that you're like you don't even

50:33

have to think it's not even a

50:35

decision right you just go you have

50:37

to go there isn't an alternative. Whereas

50:42

I think most of life is somewhere in the

50:44

machine middle. I mean yeah

50:46

it's true like it's

50:49

very rare that the you know that

50:52

you're going to be 100%

50:54

miserable. But while

50:56

when you're 60% miserable

50:59

that's still too miserable. Like

51:02

that's more than half. Mm-hmm.

51:04

It's not like I

51:06

have a spreadsheet on this by the way but

51:08

like that feeling where most of the time you're

51:10

feeling terrible that's not

51:13

a way to

51:15

live. You know it is

51:17

a way to live? Think about

51:19

it like you're at the movies. You know

51:21

how when you go to see a film and you

51:23

walk in and it's daylight and then you come out

51:25

and it's dark. Yeah I hate that. When

51:27

I picture walking out of a film, when

51:30

I visualize walking out of a film in my mind

51:32

I am always walking out into the sunlight. I'm

51:37

never walking out into the dark and the rain

51:39

I'm always just stepping out into the sunshine. When

51:47

I see unhappy couples I'm just like oh

51:49

my god like you're both keeping

51:52

someone else from the joy of being

51:54

someone who could love you is on

51:57

their own right now. Someone

52:00

that loves you could be with you and someone who

52:03

loves your husband or your wife could

52:05

be with them. And

52:07

just think how much happier all of you would

52:09

be. And instead there's some poor single person on

52:13

hinge, like desperately looking through the profiles, who'd

52:15

be perfect for you and you're not on

52:17

hinge because you're too busy fighting with your

52:19

wife. Mm-hmm. Yeah,

52:22

I mean... God. I'm

52:24

like, everybody broke up. Happy

52:28

Valentine's Day, America. Diane

52:39

Buell is one of the producers I know of. Before

52:46

we end our show, I think it's only fair

52:48

that I answer which camp I believe in, math

52:50

or magic. In truth,

52:52

after dating around for most of my 20s, I

52:54

got tired of both. Magic

52:56

steered me wrong, and going out on dates

52:59

just to go on dates also felt exhausting.

53:02

So I made up my own theory about what to do.

53:04

It was kind of mathy. Actually, it

53:06

was a little like what Zarna did, though nowhere

53:08

near as specific. I

53:10

made myself a list of 10 qualities I

53:12

wanted in a partner, and it was pretty simple.

53:15

It said things like, I want him to

53:17

be kind, I want him to appreciate the arts,

53:20

it was a cellist at the time, I want

53:22

him to be the kind of person I'd want to call

53:24

when something funny happens. And I

53:26

made a rule for myself that if I was dating

53:28

a guy that I liked, if I started to get

53:31

freaked out about whether or not it felt magical enough,

53:34

I had to pull out the list. And

53:36

if it was true that he had a majority of the

53:38

things that I put on my list, I would keep giving

53:40

it a shot. Eventually,

53:42

I met a public school teacher who did art

53:44

on the side. We laughed over

53:46

pizza, talked about the Great British Baking Show,

53:48

which had just debuted in the States. We

53:51

went on another date, and then another. And

53:54

any time I left a date and thought, wow, that

53:56

was fun and easy. But was it

53:58

fun and easy enough? I'd return

54:00

to the list. Ah, yes, I

54:03

still have found someone with a majority of the

54:05

qualities I want that really likes me

54:07

too. I stopped

54:09

referring to the list after a while. And

54:12

then one day, sitting on the couch, something

54:14

happened. Remember

54:16

that app that went around a couple years ago? It

54:18

took a picture of your face and showed you what

54:20

you looked like much older, added wrinkles and gray hair.

54:23

One day my partner did it. One

54:26

screen appeared an image of him in

54:28

his 80s, with jowls and exaggerated laugh

54:30

lines, wispy eyebrows. And

54:32

a feeling crept up that I didn't expect. It

54:35

surprised me. The instant

54:37

I saw his face there, I thought, I'd like

54:39

to be around to see that. I

54:42

have no illusions about having cracked some code.

54:45

But I do think if you find someone, and

54:47

it lasts in a way that makes you happy,

54:50

no matter how you get there, it's

54:52

its own kind of magic. Today's

55:41

show was produced by Aviva de

55:43

Kornfeld. People who put together today's

55:45

show include Alma Baker, Chris Benderez,

55:48

Bea Bannon, Zoe Chase, Sean Cole,

55:50

Emmanuel Doechee, Valerie Kipnis, Seth Lind,

55:52

Catherine Raimondo, Alah Mustafa, Stowe Nelson,

55:55

Nadia Raymond, Safiya Riddle, Ryan Rumory,

55:57

Francis Swanson, Christopher Swatala, Lily Sullivan,

55:59

and Nancy Epdyke, Matt Tierney, and

56:01

Julie Whitaker. Our managing editor

56:04

is Sarah Abdurahman. Our senior editor is

56:06

David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel

56:08

Barry. Special thanks to Ovi

56:10

Aragon, Bert Harvey, and the Utah County

56:12

Passport and Marriage License Office, Alex

56:15

Fulton, Dave Rizzo, Kim Adams,

56:17

Marcy Schneider, Sara Davis, Sabrina

56:19

Hyman, Sarah King, Emily Ogle,

56:21

Sarah Collins, Francesca Street, Sheryl

56:23

Hiltzig, Jacob Ritter, and Lori

56:25

Gottlieb. Our website, thisamericanlife.org,

56:27

where you can stream our archive

56:30

of over 800 episodes for absolutely

56:32

free. Also, there's all kinds

56:34

of other stuff, lists of favorite shows, videos,

56:36

tons of other things there. Again,

56:39

thisamericanlife.org. This American Life

56:41

is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the

56:44

Public Radio Exchange. Thanks to

56:46

my boss, Ira Glass. Why is

56:48

he out this week? Well, the other day

56:50

when he and Tori Malatia were working their

56:52

side job, they were like, wait, do

56:55

you cut the red wire or the white wire?

56:57

Like both of us simultaneously just looked at

56:59

each other and boom. I'm

57:02

Tobin Lowe. Join us next week for

57:04

more stories from This American Life. Give

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