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apply. A quick warning. There

0:30

are curse words that are un-beeped in today's episode

0:32

of the show. If you prefer

0:34

a beeped version, you can find that

0:36

at our website, thisamericanlife.org. The

0:40

question started right after Tobin and his husband moved to

0:42

the Bay Area and got a house together. Tobin's

0:45

family was pretty excited about this. They all live within an

0:47

hour. And they brought meals over for weeks.

0:50

His mom bought them shades. But

0:52

this question popped up. And

0:54

the first time I noticed it happening, it was with

0:56

my aunt. Kind of out of nowhere, she

0:58

was like, oh, which one of you is Handy? Is

1:00

one of you Handy? And I

1:03

was just like, why does she want to know that? Like, why

1:06

does she care? Yeah. And

1:08

I had, I had like feelings

1:10

about it, and I couldn't tell why. And

1:14

then it just kind of kept happening with

1:17

other family members. Like they would be talking about like,

1:19

oh, you guys moved in together into this house. Which

1:23

one of you is Handy? And on

1:25

its face, it was kind of like, oh, we know

1:27

when you're in a house, there's a lot of things

1:29

to fix and a lot of things to do. But

1:32

it felt like there was something else happening there.

1:34

And it kind of bothered me. Something

1:37

else there, like there was a question underneath the question

1:39

that they were trying to get the answer to. Yeah,

1:42

like there was something else trying

1:44

to be figured out. And

1:46

I don't know, like the more I thought about it, and

1:50

why I was having feelings about it, it

1:52

was kind of like this weird aha moment

1:54

of like, oh, I think

1:57

you're asking who the man is in

1:59

real life. my relationship. Right.

2:05

You're both man. Yes, but one of you is

2:07

really the man. Yes. Yes. Yes.

2:16

Then, what Dovim would tell them was that it

2:18

was his husband who was the handyman. He felt

2:20

like he was just giving the man ammunition to put

2:22

a picture of the relationship that just bugged him. Like

2:25

they were being sized up into familiar categories.

2:29

Would you have used the husband? Would you have used the wife?

2:32

Like it was weird because whenever they

2:34

would ask it, I could feel myself

2:36

getting defensive. I didn't want

2:38

to give them that picture. And

2:40

I think part of my defensiveness

2:42

came from, I think,

2:44

well, oh man, not to take us in a

2:47

whole other direction, but if

2:49

you spend any amount of time in the closet. In

2:52

the closet? For Dovim, that means middle school and high

2:54

school. I think you're afraid

2:57

of being found out at all as

2:59

being effeminate in any way. Like I

3:02

know for me, I was

3:04

very conscious of if anyone could

3:06

detect quote

3:08

unquote, you know, feminine traits about me and then

3:10

figure out if I was gay or not. And

3:13

so I do think that like myself

3:16

and a lot of gay men carry

3:19

that around for kind of the rest of your life.

3:22

And so I think that comes up in

3:24

having to answer a question like this also.

3:27

Yeah, it's funny because it's like this innocent

3:29

question and then really like underneath it's like

3:31

there's a bomb waiting to go off actually.

3:34

Like there's so many feelings. Yeah,

3:37

it feels like it hits on a thing,

3:39

at least for me, that

3:41

I spent a lot of time as a

3:43

kid running from or spent

3:46

a lot of time trying to not have

3:48

to answer. Yeah. Like how

3:51

masculine am I? And

3:53

is somebody else more masculine than I

3:55

am? And

4:02

like I do want to make room for

4:04

the idea that they could have meant none

4:06

of this. Like absolutely none

4:08

of this. Did

4:11

you address it directly with any of them? No, because

4:13

that would be bonkers. Like

4:15

just say, oh

4:18

you asked me who's handy, you're trying to say

4:20

I'm not a man. Like that,

4:22

the leap in logic to

4:24

say that outright is

4:27

so huge. What

4:30

a day on our program. Questions that

4:32

contain other secret questions inside of them.

4:35

Questions that are wolves in sheep's clothing. In

4:37

all kinds of situations that we've all been in. In

4:40

dating, in talking to strangers, in

4:42

dealing with the saddest things that ever happened to us. And

4:45

more. WBC Chicago is

4:47

This American Life. I'm Eric Glass. Stay with

4:49

us. Okay,

5:00

so instead of four different acts today, what we're going

5:02

to do is we're going to present this show as

5:04

four questions. Here's the first one. Question.

5:07

Tell me how you feel about this. So

5:10

Tobin, who you just heard, is one of the

5:12

editors here at our show. And really the idea

5:14

for today's program came out of a conversation that

5:16

happened at a staff meeting. And

5:18

what happened was we all got talking about these

5:20

kind of question traps. Where it seems like somebody's

5:22

asking about one thing, but the question is a

5:24

proxy for trying to figure out something else. Tobin

5:27

will explain more. The

5:30

conversation was about the questions people ask on

5:32

first dates. The kind that force

5:34

who someone really is out into the open. Maybe

5:37

even without them realizing. One such

5:39

question I didn't even know was a thing. But

5:42

a few of my co-workers said that for black women of

5:44

a certain age, it's having a kind of renaissance. Emmanuel,

5:47

our executive editor, asks it this way.

5:50

What do you think of Beyonce? It

5:53

was a question that I found myself trying to ask basically a

5:55

lot on first dates. Because it told

5:58

me a lot about them. It's

6:00

a question that tells you one in some ways how

6:02

they feel about a power of black woman. It's a

6:04

question that tells you how

6:07

they think about Black

6:11

women in general kind of a little bit to me

6:13

and That like if you feel

6:15

the need to like put her down or like

6:18

say something negative about her It's

6:21

like a real turnoff. It's like a red flag

6:23

basically They describe her

6:25

singing style as kind of like catawalling

6:27

or like oh she's just screeching Bim

6:30

another producer has also asked this question

6:32

on many a date all these

6:34

words That sort of like have double meanings if you're

6:36

a woman and also if you're a black woman I'm

6:39

just like alright, so you don't like loud people.

6:42

Okay. Okay, that means you don't like me

6:46

Could you tell me about some like

6:48

specific times that you've asked the Beyonce

6:50

question and what the guys response was

6:52

and what it told you First

6:55

date our date pretty standard

6:57

Beyonce actually came on in the bar in

6:59

the background Like oh, what do

7:01

you think about Beyonce? And he was like

7:03

I don't I don't understand what the big

7:06

deal is about her Like you like women

7:08

act like they're in a cult or something

7:10

and it's like they seem like

7:12

crazy I was like, oh,

7:15

well, I really like her and like I don't really

7:17

think I'm in a cult Emmanuel

7:19

watch the guy through all the reasons Beyonce

7:21

is in fact pretty great But

7:23

the guy didn't budge. No, he

7:26

he did not Didn't

7:28

care to and maybe didn't care to hear me

7:30

talk in general is what it seemed like They

7:35

did not go out again because well you

7:37

could say he was unapologetic when he fucked

7:39

up the night That's

7:41

a plan a Beyonce lyric by the way. Sorry

7:43

couldn't help myself Anyway,

7:45

be a Parker who's also been on the

7:48

show She said for her it doesn't even

7:50

have to be Beyonce any well-known

7:52

black woman does the trick She

7:54

say through the Williams and they say oh, I

7:56

think she's overrated or if you

7:58

say jaded pink it's

8:01

like, well, she's too masculine or she's

8:03

ruining most of his life, she's controlling him.

8:06

Or how he talks about Liz, like,

8:08

she's a cover-ass. I bring

8:10

up, like, a black female celebrity to get

8:13

their opinion on them, and it

8:15

usually becomes, like, the litmus

8:17

test for how they

8:20

would treat me as a partner, how

8:22

they would view me as a person. But

8:25

the Beyonce question, she agrees, is the most

8:27

potent, because the answer can really tell you

8:29

if you should be crazy in love or

8:31

putting everything he owns in a box to

8:33

the left. Again, I am so

8:35

sorry. The thing about a

8:38

bunch of people using the same trick, though,

8:40

is that eventually people, in this case men,

8:42

might catch on. Are you

8:44

aware of the Beyonce question? Yes,

8:47

I am aware of the Beyonce question.

8:49

Emmanuel Jochee, producer and man, at the

8:52

show. Have you experienced this? Yes,

8:55

I've experienced it many times. He

8:57

told me about a date he was on where

8:59

they started talking about musicals, and a movie version

9:01

of Dreamgirls came up. And thinking

9:04

he was just answering a question about the

9:06

movie, Emmanuel was honest. He

9:08

said Beyonce was just okay in

9:10

that. He didn't realize he

9:12

was answering the wrong question. Um,

9:14

and I was just digging a hole. She

9:20

was just like, the only answer to being

9:22

honest about Beyonce is that, yes, she's fantastic,

9:24

she's amazing, nobody can do what she does.

9:27

It was only later that he learned from another guy

9:29

friend why he as a black man should really

9:32

only answer one way. I remember

9:34

my friend saying, basically, that is

9:36

the question black women

9:38

will ask you to determine if you

9:40

really like black women. Once

9:42

it was explained to me, like, I totally

9:45

understood where people were coming from. And I

9:47

understood what the purpose of that question was.

9:51

In some cases, the Beyonce question is

9:53

like an agreed upon farce, where both

9:55

parties know they're talking in code. Parker

9:58

was recently on a date. She mentioned

10:00

Beyoncé's Black as King film. And he

10:03

was like... Uh...

10:06

He was like, I

10:08

don't know what to say here. Because

10:11

I... I like

10:13

this... I like talking to you,

10:15

but I don't... love

10:17

Beyoncé. And

10:19

I don't want you to be mad at me. He

10:22

knew it was a trap. He

10:24

did know it was a trap! And

10:27

how did you respond? I

10:29

was like, like, what are you talking about? What are you...

10:32

If he was like, like, I know girls

10:34

do this. And I

10:36

was like, you're... You're right.

10:39

And I'm sorry. I

10:41

apologize. And I was

10:43

like, well, I guess that's kind of... the

10:46

right answer. We have to almost wait. Of

10:55

course, there are other questions like the Beyoncé one.

10:58

Little traps we set on dates. Hoping the

11:00

other person doesn't fall in. Or hoping they

11:02

do. One that made the

11:04

news recently, which may or may not be true. According

11:07

to an old classmate, Governor Ron DeSantis

11:09

would ask dates if they liked Thai

11:12

food. But, and this is

11:14

key, he'd pronounce it thai-food. And

11:17

if they said no, it's thai-food, not

11:19

thai, he'd ditch the date. It

11:21

was his way of testing if they correct him, which he

11:23

did not want. I don't know. Sounds

11:26

like a test I'd be grateful to fail, but that's just

11:28

me. Anyway, I talked

11:30

to a bunch of other people about their

11:32

question traps. Kelsey, in

11:34

Minnesota, asked her dates about their favorite

11:36

Tom Hanks movies. She said he's been

11:38

in so many movies across multiple genres.

11:41

The answer is kind of like a personality test.

11:44

Toy Story, for example, tells her there's

11:46

a stunted adolescence thing going on. Sarah

11:49

in Tampa said when she started to get

11:52

a weird vibe, she'd ask, what's your favorite

11:54

conspiracy theory? Most people would

11:56

keep their answers lighthearted, but occasionally, someone

11:58

would go all in. One

12:00

guy started talking all about Nazi separatists.

12:03

She's Jewish, so you know, kind of a

12:05

deal breaker. But not

12:07

all question traps are subtle. There's

12:09

another genre that I was surprised anyone

12:11

fell for. The kind of question that seemed

12:14

covered in yellow caution tape, and a sign

12:16

that said, this is a trap. This

12:19

one comes from Vivian in Iowa. After

12:21

her husband died in 2016, she

12:24

found herself back out on the dating scene. Her

12:26

question on a date was, if your ex walked

12:29

by right now with her new partner, what would

12:31

you do? Which was

12:33

her way of asking a much more interesting question.

12:36

How fucked up was your last relationship? First

12:38

time I did it, the guy said, I would punch

12:40

him and give her a piece of my mind. Oh

12:43

my God. Exactly.

12:49

We had just sat down to have a

12:51

nice lunch on a Sunday

12:53

afternoon, so I'm like, do I get up

12:55

and go? And

12:58

that's when the story came out of how he

13:01

was still about a couple

13:03

weeks away from going to court for finalizing

13:05

his divorce. And it

13:07

had been a 38-year relationship, and he

13:09

found out she had been cheating for most of the time in

13:12

a completely

13:15

serendipitous way. She

13:17

gave him an old phone that she had wiped, and

13:20

when she downloaded the cloud, it

13:22

downloaded into his phone too. And

13:24

that's how he found out. Wow. You

13:27

got so much information from that one

13:29

question. You got to make it efficient.

13:32

Why draw it out?

13:35

I was shocked. This question is so

13:37

clearly, how bad was your last breakup? Do

13:39

I have anything to worry about? But

13:42

something about turning it into a fun little

13:44

icebreaker made these guys open up. There

13:46

was another guy that said, well,

13:49

we would have to leave immediately because I don't want to see

13:52

them. And my reply was, you don't want to see

13:54

them, or you don't want them to see us.

13:57

And what was his response? Oh,

14:00

he never answered

14:03

directly, but I knew then that

14:05

he was still in a relationship.

14:09

With her now husband, they met at a widow's

14:11

support group. He talked about his loneliness and

14:13

being a single parent. They kind of just

14:15

got each other. And she

14:17

knew the question, what would you do if your ex

14:19

showed up? Would not be right for this nice guy

14:21

who had just lost his life? She

14:24

wasn't gonna ask that. The

14:31

last person I talked to was Jessica.

14:33

She teaches ESL classes in Atlanta. What's

14:36

your go-to question? Do

14:40

you believe in ghosts? Ghosts?

14:42

I bet you didn't see that one coming, did

14:44

you? Do you believe in ghosts?

14:47

Here's how Jessica says it works. There

14:49

is no one right answer. It just

14:51

matters that you and your partner have

14:53

the same answer essentially at its core.

14:55

Your mind's kind of working a similar

14:57

way. Was there ever a

14:59

time that you

15:01

asked the ghost question, the person

15:03

answered differently than you, and

15:06

you went ahead and dated

15:08

that person anyway? And how did that go? Yeah.

15:14

Yeah, I was engaged before I married

15:17

my husband now. And

15:19

the ghost question really should have been my get

15:21

the fuck out moment. Really?

15:24

Yeah. Her answer to

15:26

the question is, I don't really believe

15:28

in ghosts. But if there was evidence

15:30

to the contrary, I could be convinced.

15:32

I'm open to changing my mind. And

15:36

his response was, no. And

15:38

there is no information that you could give me to

15:41

change my mind. And I just

15:43

didn't see why anyone would really think that.

15:46

At the time, she didn't think much about the

15:48

difference in their answers. But then she

15:50

got to know him better. Other things

15:52

would come up. And I was frustrated

15:54

about the fact that like, everything with you

15:57

is so black and white, I think Not

15:59

as much as black. My protector. Gray.

16:03

And then I got back to the answer his

16:05

question. Is rigidity was one

16:07

of the big things that brought them up. Now.

16:10

She tells everyone she knows you're seeing

16:12

someone new. Ask them the goes question.

16:14

He could save you a lotta time.

16:23

And. The thing about any top of course

16:25

is are ways to sidestep that disarm it.

16:28

And then the person who laid the trap has to

16:30

decide what to do. A. Manual had

16:32

to make such a decision. Ironically

16:34

enough, my current boyfriend had no

16:36

idea who fiance was, who The

16:38

only person who had that responds

16:40

what does that tell you that

16:42

he just needed like some education

16:44

is. Steve.

16:47

Older and he's I'm from this country and

16:49

my doesn't listen. To music really and Mike

16:51

ah By the second day he had

16:53

read the entire a Good Pdf heeds

16:55

for me and he knew be unsafe

16:57

birthday and that she was married to

16:59

Daisy and he knew about the elevator

17:01

fight as or he listened to your

17:03

opinion yet ended up being a green

17:05

flag Now I talked him about be

17:07

on sale the time and I don't

17:09

necessarily think his leg isn't going out

17:11

to like the answer concerning the he

17:13

understands how important she is and how

17:15

important is to me and let's me

17:17

rant about her since I ever really.

17:20

Want. It is

17:22

only think anyone wants someone. You don't

17:24

feel like you have to set a

17:26

trap for someone who you can look

17:29

at them and say your everything I

17:31

need and more. It's written all over

17:33

your face baby. I can see all

17:35

your halo pray of on fade away.

17:39

By Stop Now. Seven

17:49

Miles is murder on a program. Question

17:53

to. How are you kids? So

17:56

I'm there's a particular piece, a small talk that happens

17:58

all the time. Some people is

18:01

like the most normal thing in the

18:03

world and for others is a super

18:05

delicate minefield. This. Story: The

18:07

debate here is but a couple for whom it is a

18:09

minefield. And how one day. Question.

18:12

Like this comes up. And. Goes completely

18:14

differently from how it's ever gone before

18:16

for them. In a spectacularly wilde

18:18

way, you'll hear what I'm talking about for

18:20

spend or of tells the story. Stacey.

18:23

Cement is the real estate agent

18:25

southern California and she's well suited

18:28

to the job because she's excellent

18:30

at making conversation with strangers about

18:32

anything. But. For the past six

18:34

and a half years, there's been this classic genre

18:36

of get to know you banter that's become a

18:38

lot more complicated for her and her husband Michael.

18:41

And that's questions about their children. Ah

18:44

yes all the time. Talking

18:46

to people getting introductions it's always asking

18:48

about artists A: how many kids you

18:50

have love other how old are they.

18:53

The. Answers to these questions a complicated

18:55

for Stacey because they're older child

18:57

Max died and twenty seventeen. So.

19:00

It has been six and a half years because

19:02

I have a.tattoo for every six months. This.

19:05

Is Stacey has been Michael Max,

19:07

his dad. He's. A C P

19:09

A straight laced kind of guy. For.

19:11

The most part. Max always wanted

19:13

us to get tattoos, we never did

19:15

and I feel already had some. Has

19:17

to be out as a wonderful sleeve

19:19

and lotta tattoos but there are so

19:21

I'm covered in tattoos and my right

19:24

arm is an entire memorial for maxi

19:26

or got the kids tattooed a pure

19:28

a my right shoulder so. Did

19:30

you have tattoos before? Never know. but

19:33

you know it's tattoos are very interesting

19:35

thing it's it's it's it's. Less

19:39

than a least I can do. but

19:41

it does help me through the pain

19:43

and tattooing. Really, it's how I see

19:45

it from my perspective. is just a

19:47

socially acceptable cutting. Max

19:50

was a funny kid I always love

19:52

playing pranks, who by fifteen was struggling

19:54

with drug addiction. Going in

19:56

and out of treatment, he overdosed. He was twenty

19:58

five And his parents. how. And

20:01

after he died for a while Michael

20:03

I'm Stacey were and friends and family

20:05

who knew what had happened so nobody

20:07

asked those do you have kids sort

20:10

of questions but then see travel to

20:12

a conference in Albuquerque. She. Was

20:14

sitting down for lines next to a

20:16

couple friendly blonde woman and her husband.

20:18

He began asking Stacey where she was

20:20

from and what she did. And then

20:22

finally. Those. Questions. Do.

20:24

You have kids, How old

20:26

are they? And the woman

20:28

was still kind of southern.

20:31

very sweet. they bubbly, And

20:33

when people are like that with me

20:35

at all pretty open and so I

20:38

felt like being authentic and I told

20:40

her you know, one of my children

20:42

have died of an overdose two years

20:45

ago. And. Now

20:47

I have one. This. Did not

20:49

go over well. This. Woman and

20:51

her husband. It's it. Really upset

20:53

them. They. Couldn't they just

20:56

couldn't handle the conversation? They.

20:58

Just saw this is major pity

21:00

face with the open mouth and

21:02

the. Oh. Okay,

21:06

And as the conversation with them and a stall out at

21:08

that point in than they kind of. Totally. Stuck

21:10

out they never talk to me again. Of

21:13

course, overtime. This happened again and

21:15

again. Stranger's. Wrath and these

21:17

sorts of questions and when they they answer it

21:19

suck all the end of the room. Mean

21:22

Michael. Especially uncomfortable. He never like sharing

21:25

the stuff with strangers. He's more of

21:27

a private person, but together he insists

21:29

he came up with the strategy for

21:31

how to handle things we're We're out

21:33

in about. And a question

21:36

comes up. We return what each

21:38

other just a little over imperceptibly

21:40

cells in a really, really pick

21:42

up what's going on. Ah, and

21:44

then usually Spacey will answer however

21:46

she answers, and I support her

21:48

unreservedly. A lot of the

21:50

times actually live with two kids

21:52

so this is their ages. Talk

21:55

to you later and keep it

21:57

certain sweets because sometimes the white

21:59

lie. A better for that person

22:01

cause they're at a party, their out,

22:03

having fun, and they definitely don't want

22:06

to hear about your dead child. And

22:09

so on. They weren't answering some questions about

22:11

their kids and bobbing and weaving her and

22:13

others for six and a half years. Until

22:16

this one day last November and they

22:18

got themselves into a situation that was

22:20

very different from any that they'd been

22:22

in before and very public. One

22:31

thing the know but Stacey in my goal is

22:33

to both spend a lot of their time working

22:35

at a recovery center for people struggling with addiction

22:37

and sometimes they hang out with the other staff

22:39

and clients there. And so I saw that

22:42

they're gone to a show at the Hollywood Improv

22:44

were Sarah Silverman was performing and I'm like oh

22:46

my God I love Sarah Silverman. I want to

22:48

go, I want to go and eyes several. We

22:50

got their go I want to sit front row

22:52

center. I want to get handled. I

22:55

want is I want to be right under Sarah

22:57

Silverman. I wondered aloud to handle me as possible.

22:59

Or me. I guess we had told them I

23:02

don't know, I just wanted to be a part

23:04

of it. They. Get seats front

23:06

row center. The before Sarah Silverman

23:08

came on stage that node the

23:10

Hollywood Improv. there was this opener

23:12

kind him. Adam re early forties

23:14

wearing a Mariners cap. He's. Got

23:17

this Backing band, drums, keyboard,

23:19

backup singers, And

23:23

he insists that was a song about how I

23:25

was friends with. Kids are miserable and boring them.

23:50

Within the song, Chef Adam Race

23:52

says things that he and his

23:54

wife are still deciding about having

23:57

kids. Suddenly, he turns to the

23:59

crowd. Find someone with kids

24:01

who can make an argument for having

24:03

them and I'm starts in the front

24:05

row with a guy a few seats

24:07

way since they said Michael to us.

24:11

Last minute the word kids

24:13

came up. I went on

24:15

high alert. And

24:17

I just had a feeling oh my god we're sit

24:19

in the front row of as he can come to

24:22

us. For

24:28

dinner. So I'm

24:30

I'm nervous because I don't know when I'm in

24:32

a sad and or to deal with it's and

24:34

remember read a comic. Whether you the station i

24:37

think subconsciously communicate with one another and we can't

24:39

do that here in this venue. A look at

24:41

each other and get an idea of you know

24:43

what do you think every second with her talking

24:45

So I'm they're sort of in a desert. Waiting.

24:50

And then I saw him come in. the

24:53

me of course. So ah he comes to

24:55

me a good idea Many kids. Airbrush,

25:03

Pretty assertive for the guy who doesn't like

25:05

talking about this and sinker my what a

25:07

fucking you don't have kids under at the

25:09

product. I should shut the fuck up and

25:12

get out right you. So if you're probably

25:14

was a little attitude perhaps you think. And

25:20

ah I figured that would be a

25:22

fight. the comedians not done with him.

25:46

and he still not done So

26:59

I felt protective over him

27:01

in that moment. Like

27:11

that's a loaded question and that's why he can't answer

27:13

you. Then the comic turns to

27:15

Stacy. And

27:27

then I thought to myself, oh now I've got to

27:29

tell the truth. And

27:32

so in a split second,

27:34

very impulsive moment, I

27:37

said, I'm sorry to tell you this, but

27:39

one of our kids is actually dead. I'm

27:41

sorry to tell you about one of our kids. Oh,

27:48

what the fuck? On

28:02

stage, no

28:05

one quite knows

28:08

what to do. One

28:14

of the backup singers puts her hands over her face.

28:17

The keyboard player just shakes his

28:19

head like, no. And

28:22

then I realized, like, uh oh. I just screwed

28:24

the show. Oh, all right.

28:32

All right. This

28:42

moment for the comedian seems pretty insurmountable,

28:44

right? Like, what could he possibly do

28:46

to save a set after that? I

28:49

called him up, Adam Ray, and he

28:51

said he considered changing the subject, but

28:54

chose not to. And

29:11

finally, it's actually Stacy who saves the day.

29:14

She motions for Adam the comedian, and he bends down

29:16

and points his mic at her. And

29:18

then she says, I

29:22

said, our dead son would think this

29:25

was hilarious. It wasn't

29:27

a lie at all. Our

29:39

dead son would have thought this was

29:41

hilarious. He would have been like,

29:43

oh my God, of course my mom stepped in a

29:45

big pile of shit. And

29:49

Then Adam gets an idea. right?

30:29

Here the. The

30:32

video that and said actually made the rounds

30:34

on Tic Toc an Instagram afterwards. Stacey

30:36

says, you read every last comments Are

30:38

these people rejoicing for and remembering her

30:41

son? I've listened at thing

30:43

like a hundred tossing site sitting as

30:45

I keep enjoying it. Was

30:47

like is was incredible. Just was

30:49

an incredible. Moment a car.

30:53

Lots of people have asked them questions.

30:55

Putting them in is complicated spot. But

30:57

this time in front of others People That

31:00

ended with a room full of strangers cheering

31:02

for Max. This time

31:04

with their favorite. Responder

31:19

of the producers are. Coming

31:22

up the question about a four

31:24

hundred Euro play and personal question

31:26

underneath that question. It's

31:28

a minute. And. Chicago Public Radio. On.

31:30

A problem continues. He's

31:34

is Anna Martin's in the New York Times

31:36

financially tell you about something. For. New York

31:38

Times news subscribers called New

31:41

York Croons Audio Sweden get

31:43

the latest news, culture and

31:46

more. It has exclusive shows

31:48

storytelling from cereal production and missing

31:50

out loans puts a lot lot

31:53

of narrated articles from the kinds

31:55

and beyond. New York Times earlier

31:57

downloading and in my dreams. Com

32:00

or young. To.

32:05

Smack I from Iraq last days program.

32:08

A question trap. What? We're

32:10

talking about today is those questions that

32:12

can seem benevolent, innocent, harmless, innocuous, could

32:14

not hurt a fly. But.

32:17

Underneath. The. Really asking? something

32:19

else? Or quietly making a point

32:21

about something else. We've. arrived a

32:23

question three of our program. Christian.

32:26

Three. As your mom. So

32:29

we spotted this. Next thing we want to play you

32:31

an academic journal. Was originally a

32:33

paper. In Medical Anthropology

32:35

Quarterly. Redmayne. At Apologists

32:37

named Janell Taylor who are adapted it

32:39

to read here on the radio. Six.

32:42

This one question that you know towers reading

32:44

about it kept showing up all the time

32:46

to personalize. It is as

32:48

as Nance apologists, she knows when lots of

32:51

people are asking the same question. Over.

32:53

And over. It means and. You

32:56

read this essay the think true. What? Is

32:58

under these that question? My. Mother

33:01

is living with progressive demand so. Because

33:04

I'm reading these words on the radio,

33:06

I. Can't hear your response. But.

33:08

I'm listening for the question That, as

33:10

I've learned, Always comes

33:13

every one. Almost without

33:15

exception responds with some version of

33:17

the same question. Does.

33:20

You recognize you. There

33:23

are various course. Distill

33:25

know who you are, but does

33:28

he still know your name? However,

33:31

it may be phrased, the question is

33:33

always whether my mother recognizes me, Meaning,

33:35

since she recites the facts of who

33:38

I am, what my name is, and

33:40

how I'm related to her. When

33:43

everyone keeps asking me, does

33:45

she recognize you. I

33:48

find myself thinking that is

33:50

the wrong question. I

33:54

believe the question really is

33:56

or should be do you

33:58

do We reckon. Her

34:00

as a person who's still

34:03

here, Does.

34:07

She recognize you. The.

34:10

Weirdness of the question becomes more obvious if

34:12

you think about what. Would be required to

34:14

answer it. Let's say I

34:16

asked my mother. What's. My name.

34:19

Who am I hold my how

34:21

do we know each other. Testing

34:24

or that way. What? Is

34:26

the proof? What? Is it? Actually

34:29

accomplice? I

34:31

read a book by journalists name's Lauren

34:33

Kessler. She wrote about how she was

34:35

correct her own mother when her mother

34:37

calls or by the wrong name. Every

34:39

time she would visit her mother, she

34:41

take framed photos from the dresser and

34:43

point to them and quiz her mother.

34:47

You know who this is, Don't to mom. Of.

34:49

Course, she didn't Kessler rights so

34:52

I told her again and again

34:54

each visit who was who and

34:56

then quizzed again. Thinking

34:59

back on this now, I am

35:01

appalled at my insensitivity. What did

35:03

I think I was doing? I

35:06

managed to accomplish only two things:

35:08

I made myself miserable and I

35:10

made my mother irritable. I

35:13

don't need my mother to tell me my

35:15

name. Or harm related to

35:17

her. Already know these things

35:20

and I know that she has to

35:22

mensa. So why then what I make

35:24

a point of asking are these questions

35:26

that I know she can't possibly answer.

35:30

Is seems rude or just

35:32

mean I can't bring myself

35:34

to do it. I

35:37

guess you could say that my mother raised me better than.

35:45

The she recognize you. I'm

35:49

not so convinced that the

35:51

inability to remember names necessarily

35:53

means that a person with

35:55

dementia camp recognize. Or care about

35:57

other people. The very Own.

36:00

it does mean that other people

36:02

stop recognizing and caring about them.

36:06

My mother was close to lots of people, but

36:09

only one friend remains present in her

36:11

life. Every month

36:13

or two, Eli Davis drives an hour and a

36:15

half from her home to Seattle to visit mom,

36:18

bringing treats and hugs and her

36:20

always cheerful self. I

36:23

love her dearly for it, and

36:26

I wonder, where are the others? Where are

36:28

the couples with whom my parents socialized? The

36:32

women with whom mom spent hours and hours on the phone

36:34

all through my childhood? This

36:37

shouldn't surprise me as much as it has. Maybe

36:40

it's not fair to expect friends to

36:42

step up, even close family drop off.

36:47

Friendships in America are not usually expected

36:49

to survive dementia. Friendships

36:52

are often more like pleasure crafts than

36:54

life rafts, not

36:56

built to brave the really rough waters. Does

37:05

she recognize you? When

37:08

people ask me whether my mother still recognizes me,

37:12

they're often expressing concern for me,

37:15

asking me how I'm bearing up under the

37:17

burden of suffering that her dementia must place

37:19

on me, and they're quite

37:21

ready to hear about my burdens and my suffering.

37:25

What they find harder to hear, I

37:27

think, is that being around my

37:29

mother is not a nightmare or a horror. It's

37:32

not like any of that. Here's

37:34

what it is. In

37:37

a cafe, as we share a scone, mom and

37:39

I make what passes for conversation.

37:42

I've learned to ask only the sort

37:44

of question that doesn't require any specific

37:46

information to answer. So,

37:49

things going okay with you these days? How's

37:52

my favorite mom doing? You doing all right?

37:55

I tell her funny little stories about my kids.

37:58

Sometimes we leave throughout the day. magazine, looking

38:01

at the pictures and commenting on them. Sometimes

38:04

we look out the window and

38:06

I make general observations that require

38:08

no specific response. Looks

38:11

like spring is coming, look at those leaves

38:13

coming out on the trees. That

38:15

guy's hair is really curly. With

38:19

each exchange, Mom smiles

38:21

at me, beaming affectionately

38:23

in that familiar, slightly

38:25

conspiratorial way as if we're both in on

38:27

the same joke. I

38:30

see. Our conversations

38:32

go nowhere. But

38:34

it doesn't matter what we say, really,

38:36

or whether we said it before, or

38:38

whether it's accurate or interesting or even

38:40

comprehensible. The exchange

38:43

is the point. Mom

38:45

and I are playing catch with

38:48

touches, smiles, and gestures, as well

38:50

as words, lobbing them

38:52

back and forth to each other

38:54

in slow, easy, underhand arcs. The

38:57

fact that she drops the ball more and more

39:00

often doesn't stop the game from being enjoyable.

39:03

It's a way of being together. Does

39:08

she recognize you? She

39:11

may not recognize me in a

39:13

narrowly cognitive sense, but

39:16

my mom does recognize me as someone

39:18

who's there with her, someone

39:20

familiar perhaps, and

39:22

she doesn't need to have all the details sorted

39:24

out in order to care for me. The

39:27

impulse to care, the habit

39:29

of caring. These are things that

39:32

run deep in my mother, someone

39:34

who, for most of her life, was very engaged

39:36

in caring for other people, her

39:38

children, her husband, her grandchildren,

39:41

her friends. Even

39:43

some of the behavioral quirks that my

39:46

mom has developed makes sense to me

39:48

in those terms as expressions of care.

39:50

Here's an example. People

39:52

with dementia often engage in repetitive

39:54

behaviors, and mom is no exception.

39:58

When I take her out to a cafe, I usually

40:00

get a cup of black coffee for myself and

40:02

order a cup of hot chocolate for her. Not

40:05

too hot and don't forget the whipped cream on

40:07

top. As we

40:10

drink them, she checks constantly to see whether

40:12

my cup and hers are even, whether the

40:14

liquids have been drunk down to the same

40:16

level. And if not, she'll

40:18

hurry up and drink more to catch up or I'll

40:20

stop and wait for me. Or

40:23

if we share a cookie, she's concerned to

40:25

make sure that the halves be the same size

40:27

and that we eat them at the same rate.

40:31

I think keeping track of whether our

40:33

drinks and cookies are even comes naturally

40:35

to my mother. A

40:37

woman who has always had to carefully

40:40

divide quite limited resources, first

40:42

with her own brothers and later among her

40:44

four children. She's

40:46

cared about such details all her life

40:49

and caring about them was also a way in which she cared

40:52

for other people. Mom

40:54

also does still take care of me in

40:57

some small but important ways. One

41:00

time, a little more than a year ago, I

41:02

stopped by the assisted living facility where she was

41:04

living at the end of a very busy day

41:06

and in an especially hectic week. I

41:09

had stayed up very late the night before trying

41:11

to finish grading student papers, then spent

41:13

the whole day teaching and in meetings.

41:17

I went with her up to her room. I

41:19

turned on the TV and we sat

41:21

down together on the couch. I

41:23

was exhausted. I leaned back and

41:26

yawned. Mom

41:28

patted my hand and said to me, you're

41:30

tired. Just go ahead and sleep. You

41:33

can just lay down right here. And

41:36

so I sat there next to my

41:38

mom holding her hand, feeling her warmth

41:40

against me all along one side of

41:42

my body. And I leaned my

41:44

head on her shoulder and slept. Does

41:58

she recognize you? For

42:01

a while, after we first moved my mother

42:04

into an assisted living facility, she often said

42:06

that she wanted to go home. I

42:09

understood this to mean that she wanted to move

42:11

back to the house where she had lived for

42:13

40 years until my father's death, the

42:16

house in which I grew up. Usually,

42:19

I responded with my own mild version

42:21

of reality orientation, explaining as gently as

42:23

possible that that house was all empty

42:25

and cold now and nobody was there

42:27

to keep her company or help her

42:29

do stuff, so it was probably better

42:32

to stay here. One

42:35

time, though, I asked her a

42:37

question instead. You

42:39

mean home to the house up in Edmonds?

42:42

No, on the farm, she answered.

42:46

You go down. With

42:48

her raised arm, she traced out the curve

42:50

of a long-ago road. For

42:53

the first few years of her life, my mother

42:55

had lived on a small farm in southern Idaho

42:57

before her father moved the family to Seattle during

43:00

World War II to seek work on the docks.

43:03

They're inside there, she added. Who?

43:07

I asked. My

43:09

mom and my dad. My

43:12

mother's in her 70s. Her

43:14

parents are not waiting for her

43:16

inside an Idaho farmhouse. You

43:20

could use that evidence to draw a clear

43:22

line between us. Me,

43:24

here, on the side of reality,

43:26

competence, personhood, recognition.

43:31

Her over there, on the side

43:33

of delusion, incapacity,

43:35

not quite fully human. But

43:39

what she was longing for was her childhood home.

43:42

She missed her mom and dad. She

43:45

was trying, in her own way, to hold on

43:47

to them, just as

43:49

I was trying, against the odds, to

43:52

hold on to her. Our

43:54

predicament is exactly the same. She

44:09

is a professor at the University of

44:11

Toronto, teaching medical anthropology. Her

44:13

mom, Charlene Taylor, died in 2019. As

44:17

you know, collecting this essay I know there's about

44:19

to mention into a book, you can find a

44:21

link to the original academic article that she wrote

44:23

at our website. That's

44:27

for, can I help you? Okay,

44:30

here's one last example of a question that

44:32

is another question lurking behind it. The

44:35

question goes like this. If

44:37

Mathieu scored an average of 15 points per basketball

44:39

game and played 24 games in one

44:41

season, how many points did he

44:43

score in the season? That's

44:46

a question from the SHSAT, which

44:48

is a standardized test given to middle school students in

44:50

New York City. A high

44:52

score on the SHSAT will

44:55

get you into one of the eight public schools in

44:57

the city, wonderful schools. A

45:01

low score will keep you in the regular

45:03

public school system where your school

45:05

may be assigned by lottery. So

45:08

the question lurking behind that math question is, are

45:11

you good enough? Are you good

45:13

enough to go to the best schools? And

45:15

maybe from there, to the best colleges. From

45:18

there, to all the advantages you get from

45:20

that kind of education, including a higher income,

45:22

maybe a better job, all the SHSAT stuff.

45:26

Kind of a big scary chasm opening up in

45:28

the earth behind that innocent little math problem. For

45:32

five years, Milo Kramer tutored kids

45:34

who wanted to leap over that chasm and

45:36

into those eight elite high schools. At

45:39

first it made Milo feel good. Because

45:41

I thought I was helping children. And

45:44

I only gradually came to understand that I

45:46

was really just a fucked up cog in

45:48

a larger fucked up system. about

46:00

this show. Most of it is

46:02

songs, songs about the kids that Milo tutored.

46:05

These very funny and heartbreaking portraits of these middle

46:07

school and high school kids and

46:09

Milo's relationship to them. Like

46:11

for example, the boy who takes a lot

46:13

of pleasure denouncing God and the Democrats. Jason's

46:16

16 and he

46:19

proudly identifies

46:21

as libertarian. He's

46:23

a 16 year old

46:27

libertarian. I'm

46:29

kind of afraid of him.

46:32

Milo is not a great singer.

46:34

They would tell you that themself

46:37

or a skilled musician, but

46:39

they've written songs in secret since they were the age

46:41

that these kids are that they're writing about. And

46:44

there's just something in the intentional roughness

46:46

and sincerity of what they're doing. It

46:48

kind of matches the rawness of these

46:50

kids and their feelings and

46:53

of Milo's reactions to them. When a girl

46:55

from Queens named Dana is better at math

46:57

than Milo and probably should be a scientist

46:59

or engineer someday tells Milo that

47:01

if she does end up in college, she

47:04

wants to study theater. Milo,

47:06

who's broke and struggling and wanting to do

47:09

theater, sings. Lots

47:28

of the songs in the show are about the

47:30

kids' anxieties about school and his test and the

47:32

pressure they feel from their parents. And

47:35

they're about Milo trying to figure out not just how

47:37

to teach them, but what they possibly could say to

47:39

comfort them. Faith, for

47:41

example, is a terrible reader. Faith

47:44

says, I think I'm stupid. I can't

47:46

read. I guess I'm stupid. I get

47:48

bees. I must be stupid. I say,

47:50

I don't think you're stupid. Faith repeats.

47:52

I'm stupid. If you

47:54

think I'm smart, please prove

47:56

it. I tell

47:59

her intelligence. is

48:01

unmeasurable and

48:04

different in every

48:06

individual. Faith just

48:08

looks at me and says, no.

48:11

I say, yes. She

48:13

says, no. She says, no,

48:15

no, no. I say, hey,

48:18

when I was your age,

48:20

my mom had all my

48:23

report cards for me. When

48:26

I asked her what my

48:29

grades were, she always

48:32

told me, you're

48:35

right where you should be. You're

48:38

right where you should be. I

48:42

read or said it is about questions. And

48:45

to close out the show, I'm just gonna

48:47

put you one more thing. This is one

48:49

full song from Milo's show about a question

48:51

that a student faced. It's an essay question. Divya

48:54

has to respond to

48:56

the question is Shakespeare's

48:58

O Thello Racist in

49:00

a five paragraph essay

49:02

for her white teacher

49:04

by Monday. And

49:07

she says, just tell me the

49:09

answer, please. I

49:11

have so much homework this week. I

49:15

need to get this done as

49:17

fast as possible. Is O Thello

49:19

racist? Yes or no? I'm

49:22

like, have you read the play? She's

49:25

like, yes. And I watched the

49:27

Narens Fishburne movies. Same like, great.

49:29

Same up to me. She's

49:32

like, I don't know. I'm 15. I'm afraid to

49:34

say the wrong thing.

49:37

I'm like, same. This

49:42

stuff is hard to talk about. But you've

49:44

got to trust yourself, even though you've also got

49:47

to constantly question and interrogate yourself. Either way,

49:49

you've got to try. You've got to try. You've

49:51

got to try, try, try, try, try. I'm

49:55

desperate to do a good

49:57

job. Divya's Indian American mom.

50:00

can hear us in the

50:02

next room. I do not

50:04

know what to do. Divya

50:06

looks at the assignment rubric

50:08

to see how she'll be

50:10

graded. She needs a clear

50:13

defensible thesis followed

50:15

by three unique body

50:17

paragraphs. I can tell she's

50:19

overwhelmed. I say remember

50:23

grades don't matter Divya.

50:25

Learning can't be measured

50:27

just trust how you

50:29

feel you did. She

50:32

says maybe grades don't matter if

50:34

you're rich but in my family

50:36

grades are so important.

50:41

I think I thought the first step Divya

50:43

didn't have the words to talk about

50:45

the play in any nuanced way but

50:47

now I start to think that her

50:50

understanding is deeper than my own.

50:54

She might never talk to me

50:56

about Othello honestly and shouldn't have

50:58

to. Finally I decide she just

51:01

wants me to provide her with

51:03

some easy answer to satisfy her

51:05

teacher and get her through the

51:07

semester unscathed. So

51:10

I'm like okay. Your

51:15

teacher is either looking for

51:17

an essay that's like yes

51:22

Othello is very racist. The

51:24

story of the play is

51:26

there's this super professionally and

51:28

romantically successful black man all

51:31

of these white guys are jealous of

51:33

and cannot handle. That tension is resolved

51:35

when the white guys trick Othello into murdering his wife

51:38

thereby turning him into the brutish

51:40

stereotype they wanted him to be

51:42

all along. That the title role

51:45

was performed in blackface for centuries

51:47

underscores this. Moreover that's

51:49

a good that's kind of a

51:51

transition word Divya. Moreover

51:53

I mean my next body

51:56

paragraph will be about. Moreover,

51:58

Desdemona's whiteness is. In contrast

52:00

is repeatedly presented as a neat

52:02

please, good, innocent and desirable. That's

52:05

whenever you could write that would

52:07

get an eight. The other thing

52:09

you could write that would also

52:11

get an A goes no, a

52:13

fellow is not super racist. Othello

52:15

is a flawed attempt at anti

52:17

racism in the That in six

52:20

for Only play to center a

52:22

dynamic black protagonists. The play with

52:24

band and Apartheid South Africa for

52:26

depicting an interracial relationship. Moreover,

52:30

The players must prejudice characters are always

52:32

presented as either stupid Rodrigo or evil

52:34

Iago. It would be a mistake to

52:36

complete the perspectives of these characters with

52:38

the meanings of the work of the

52:40

whole. Either of those efforts would get

52:42

a Divya. But what you teachers with.

52:44

That. A definite thanks to not allow

52:47

for isn't as a that's like what

52:49

I think I think which is something

52:51

like. A fellow if a product

52:53

and reflection of another culture Elizabethan England

52:56

four hundred years old, written at a

52:58

time when race was just being invented

53:00

as a system of power to play

53:02

later became a cultural export of the

53:05

British empire which colonize black and from

53:07

people around the world. the play remains

53:09

a best seller of the Shakespeare industrial

53:11

complex and other words if you Othello

53:14

and racism or so. Indelibly.

53:16

Linked. That the

53:18

question is are fellow racist seems

53:20

to confuse both what racism is

53:23

and what artworks are. In.

53:25

My opinion was really racist. Divya is that

53:27

we are required to read Othello for the

53:29

billionth time that it's on the curriculum and

53:31

your Brooklyn Public High School even though the

53:33

plate is boring. When

53:41

we could be reading any number of contemporary

53:43

black playwright. Dvr

53:51

response: don't hate me,

53:53

but I kind of

53:55

like to reading on

53:57

so long. The

54:00

story is really crazy,

54:03

and the language is

54:05

really pretty. The

55:00

people who put together today's show

55:02

include Jandari Barnes, Sean Cole, Michael

55:04

Komette, Vessel Hapte, Khanna Jaffe-Waltz, Catherine

55:06

Raimondo, Stowe Nelson, Safia Riddle, Lily

55:08

Sullivan, Parencia Swanson, Christos Sotala, Marisa

55:10

Robertson-Texstra, Matt Tierney, Nancy Updyke, Julie

55:12

Whittaker, and Diane Wu. Our

55:14

managing editor is Sara Abdurrahman. Our senior

55:16

editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor

55:19

is Emmanuel Berry. Original

55:21

music for the comedian's story by Ryan

55:23

Rumery, who also helped mix the show.

55:25

Special thanks today to Lauren Kessler. Her

55:27

book is Binding Life in the Land of Alzheimer's.

55:30

Also thanks to Galya Walt, Michael

55:32

Rosenthal, Diana Taylor-William, Mike Taylor, Pat

55:34

Taylor, David Johnson, Rachel Jackson, Tom

55:36

O'Keefe, and Julie Myers. Our website,

55:39

thisamericanlife.org. You can

55:42

stream our archive of over 800 episodes for

55:44

absolutely free. This American Life

55:46

is delivered to public radio stations by

55:48

PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks as

55:50

always to our program's co-founder, Mr. Jory

55:52

Malatia. You know, he kind of hurt

55:54

my feelings this morning. We ran

55:56

into each other. He asked, how am I doing? I started

55:59

to answer. And he was like, ooh, ooh,

56:01

ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh,

56:03

ooh, ooh, ooh,

56:10

ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, America

56:13

glass. Back next week, there's more

56:15

stories of this American wall.