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1:07

Well, why don't we just start with you introducing

1:09

yourself? Okay. Well, I'm Bob Petters.

1:12

I used to be the department head of North Carolina

1:14

State until I got tired of meetings and retired.

1:18

What type of department head were you? I

1:22

left everybody alone as much as possible.

1:24

Bob Petters

1:26

has taught in the music department at North

1:29

Carolina State University for almost 50 years.

1:33

He used to conduct the orchestra there, and

1:35

the concert band. Now,

1:37

he heads up a different kind of music

1:39

group.

1:39

It's much different

1:41

than most orchestras. For

1:44

one thing, there is no attendance

1:46

policy. All we ask

1:48

players to do is let me know if

1:51

they can't come so we don't put a chair down for

1:53

them.

1:54

The orchestra is called the Really

1:56

Terrible Orchestra of the Triangle. The

1:59

triangle.

3:50

others,

4:01

either through lack of talent or some other

4:03

factor, to rehearse and perform

4:05

in an ensemble of similarly

4:08

afflicted players.

4:11

The founder of the orchestra was known to say,

4:14

even folks who can't play should

4:16

be allowed to make music.

4:19

I'm Phoebe Judge, and this

4:21

is Love.

4:36

I played the oboe in high

4:38

school and two years of college.

4:41

Gave it up because

4:43

life, and

4:45

started up again 43 years later. Natalie

4:49

Full-Wider started playing the oboe

4:51

again when she joined the really terrible orchestra 10

4:54

years ago.

4:56

Back in high school, it was her father

4:58

who picked out the oboe. He

5:00

played the clarinet, and he wanted

5:02

to form a woodwind quintet with

5:04

his four kids. And the

5:07

oldest one was destined

5:09

to play the oboe because it was the more difficult.

5:13

When you were told you will play the

5:15

oboe, were you happy about it, or

5:17

was it just preordained so

5:19

there was no reason to think? There was no reason

5:21

to doubt it. I was going

5:23

to play the oboe. And I did.

5:28

What brought

5:30

you 43 years later? I mean,

5:32

in that time when you would get together with your

5:35

family, with your siblings, would you sometimes bring

5:37

out the oboe and play just for fun, or

5:39

did you really take a complete break for

5:41

fun? No, it was a complete break.

5:44

I was raising a family. I had a career.

5:48

My siblings were scattered everywhere. So

5:52

there wasn't really the opportunity. I

5:54

mean, I might have picked it up

5:56

once or twice, but that was primarily

5:59

because... My father at probably,

6:03

I'd say 70, started

6:07

playing with community groups. At

6:09

age 80, something

6:13

possessed him to start playing the

6:15

oboe. So he bought

6:17

an oboe, and when I would visit him occasionally,

6:20

I'd toot on it, it was horrible.

6:23

You can't go away for 43

6:26

years and expect to come back and be

6:28

able to play. But over

6:30

the years, Natalie had some regret

6:33

about not playing anymore. In 2013,

6:37

she brought it up on a hike with a friend, who

6:39

told her about the really terrible orchestra.

6:42

And I figured I could be really terrible. So

6:45

I looked it up, asked for an audition, got

6:48

the audition, and

6:49

then was accepted.

6:52

Natalie found out she got in from an email.

6:55

And the first thing I read was,

6:58

you've been accepted, congratulations. I

7:00

was very excited. And the second thing I read

7:03

is your B principal oboe. And

7:05

I sat down and was just, I can't

7:07

do that.

7:09

At her audition, she played for Sandy

7:11

Hobgood, the conductor of the group

7:13

at the time. He thought she

7:16

could lead the oboe section. And

7:18

he seemed to see something in me that

7:21

I hadn't seen. And I

7:24

lived to exceed expectations,

7:26

so I worked very hard. And

7:28

now I really enjoy it. I enjoy playing

7:30

the solos.

7:32

And what are the rehearsals like? The

7:34

rehearsals are hysterical. We

7:38

make ridiculous mistakes,

7:41

and everybody laughs. For

7:43

example, as principal oboe, I

7:46

tune the orchestra,

7:48

which is a great source

7:50

of consternation. But I'll

7:52

give an A. And I'd gotten fairly good at giving

7:54

an A. In one rehearsal,

7:58

the A didn't come out. A

8:00

squawk came out, and anybody who

8:02

plays the oboe will understand that. But

8:04

a squawk came out, and everybody

8:07

laughed hysterically and thought I had done it

8:09

on purpose

8:10

because that's the kind of thing someone might

8:12

do. I had not done it on purpose.

8:21

The really terrible orchestra of the triangle,

8:24

also referred to as Artooth, rehearses

8:27

every Sunday at a community center in

8:29

Cary, North Carolina.

8:31

Sounds like some of your instruments are cold

8:33

because you're playing flat.

8:37

We showed up one week at a rehearsal. Producer

8:40

Susanna Roberson came with me. Susanna

8:43

brought her flute. She played back in middle

8:45

school. I brought along

8:48

my clarinet. I

8:50

don't really remember how to put it together, but

8:52

um...

8:54

It's okay, it's okay. I

8:56

didn't grow up playing in the school orchestra or

8:58

band, but a few years ago

9:01

my father bought me a used clarinet

9:03

for Christmas. Did I just break it? He thought

9:05

I might like to learn how to play it.

9:15

I think the reeds broke it. I

9:17

made my way to the clarinet section and

9:19

took a seat next to another player. What's

9:21

your name? Kristi. Hi Kristi,

9:24

I'm Kristi. Hi, nice to meet you. This

9:27

is my first year, but I've played

9:29

in different like community ensembles

9:32

and things before, but this is my first year playing

9:34

with R2. Oh, is it fun? It's fun,

9:36

it's fun. You know, they don't take things too

9:39

seriously, you know? Yeah.

9:42

So it's all good.

9:45

Susanna found herself a spot

9:47

in the flute section.

9:48

I don't really remember like the fingering. It's

9:50

brand new to most people, so... The

9:53

orchestra was rehearsing a few different pieces

9:56

the day we were there. Procession

9:58

of the Nobles by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov,

10:01

Hansel and Gretel Overture by Engelbert

10:04

Humberdink, God Bless America.

10:06

The group

10:08

usually sticks to pieces that are recognizable

10:11

and relatively simple to play. Both

10:14

Susanna and I were pretty rusty.

10:16

It turns out that I can only play two

10:19

notes of the piece that they're actually

10:21

playing, so... It feels better

10:23

than none. Is that good? Oh

10:26

my god.

10:32

I told her I might join. Are

10:34

you saying was that good because you're kind of being

10:37

impressed with yourself? Yeah. I'm

10:39

surprised like the muscle memory comes back.

10:43

Because I... Do it again. Okay,

10:46

new member. Here you go. We'll

10:49

be right back. Keep...

11:01

you're supposed to keep... is that all you know?

11:17

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13:36

In 1970, a group of students at

13:38

the Portsmouth College of Art in England started

13:41

an orchestra. It was for anyone

13:44

who'd never played an instrument before, or

13:46

was learning how to play a brand new instrument. It

13:49

began as a sort of art project,

13:52

but they got a lot of attention. Their

13:55

official name was the Portsmouth Sinfonia,

13:58

but their tagline was... the world's

14:00

worst orchestra. Their

14:03

manager once said

14:04

they had something rare and beautiful.

14:08

Musician and composer Brian Eno heard

14:10

about the group and decided to join on

14:12

the clarinet, a new instrument for him.

14:15

He later went on to produce albums for the Talking

14:18

Heads and U2.

14:20

But before that, he produced albums

14:22

for this orchestra of novice players.

14:25

People loved

14:29

it. In 1981, their single,

14:31

Classical Mudley, a recording

14:33

of the orchestra playing classical

14:39

music's greatest hits, set to

14:41

a disco beat, became a top 40

14:43

hit in the UK. 14 years

14:46

later, author Alexander McCall Smith,

14:49

who wrote the popular series,

14:53

The Number One Ladies Detective Agency, decided to start an orchestra in his

14:55

hometown

14:57

of Edinburgh, Scotland. He plays the

15:00

bassoon and didn't think he was good enough

15:02

to play in a regular community

15:05

orchestra. He decided

15:07

to

15:08

form his own group. He said at the

15:10

time, it won't be a good orchestra. In fact, it will be a really

15:12

terrible one.

15:15

It grew to about 65 members.

15:17

And in 2007, they played a sold-out show in

15:20

the same concert hall where the Royal

15:23

Philharmonic performs in

15:25

London. The band was a band of musicians

15:27

who played the same concert

15:29

hall. The band was a band of musicians who

15:32

played the same concert hall. The

15:34

band was a band of musicians who played the same concert

15:36

hall.

15:38

In 2008, a man named Sandy

15:41

Hobgood, who had spent 30 years

15:43

working at IBM before retiring,

15:46

read an article about Alexander

15:48

McCall Smith's really terrible orchestra.

15:52

He really wanted to steal this idea of the

15:54

really terrible orchestra of Edinburgh, Scotland,

15:57

and he wanted to do

15:59

a lot of work. to have found an international galactic

16:01

league of really terrible orchestras. That

16:04

hasn't happened yet. Douglas Payne

16:07

was a friend of Sandy's at the time. She's

16:09

a cellist, and he asked her to become

16:12

a founding member of his orchestra. I

16:14

know I chuckled, in part

16:17

because of the name, but in part because it

16:19

was so Sandy.

16:21

It would be right up his alley to have

16:24

a half farcical, half genuinely artistically

16:30

motivated and part

16:33

community orchestra. I

16:36

was thrilled to be asked. My

16:40

aspirations for the cello were never to perform.

16:43

It was always to teach

16:45

and really be

16:48

more of a, not

16:50

out in front and center. Never

16:54

wanted to have my name in lights or anything

16:56

like that.

16:57

To be asked to join

16:59

an orchestra, even a really terrible orchestra one,

17:01

it felt good to be asked

17:07

and invited. What did he tell

17:10

you the idea was when he was kind of pitching

17:12

the idea? How did he describe

17:14

it?

17:15

He said he wanted

17:18

an orchestra that didn't take itself so

17:20

seriously, where folks who were

17:23

really terrible could come and play because

17:27

we didn't have an orchestra

17:29

like that in the triangle. It was very serious.

17:31

You had to be perfect.

17:34

He didn't say it, but what was missing

17:37

was this growth aspect,

17:39

this orchestra where you could come and actually

17:42

learn something or learn something from your section

17:45

versus knowing it already and just

17:47

your practicing putting the parts together. His

17:51

idea was, just show up.

17:54

What's the worst that could happen? We'll all be terrible

17:56

together. In the end, we're

17:59

not so terrible. So the

18:01

idea wasn't that you would sound

18:04

horrible. It's just rather that you

18:06

didn't have to worry about being perfect. That's

18:09

right.

18:09

The goal was

18:11

not to sound terrible, but

18:14

the reality and the acceptance

18:16

was you might sound terrible. You

18:18

might actually sound terrible, but

18:21

there was that safety net of, well,

18:23

we're the really terrible orchestra of the triangle.

18:25

What did you expect? They

18:28

decided to take out ads in the newspaper looking

18:30

for players and put up posts

18:33

on Craigslist.

18:34

It was a motley crew. We

18:37

had 40 or 50 players. We

18:39

didn't have all the instruments we needed.

18:42

Sandy definitely labeled himself

18:45

as a really terrible conductor.

18:48

We had everyone

18:50

from musicians

18:53

who could read music

18:55

and legit play to folks who hadn't

18:58

touched their instrument in 30 years. So

19:01

really just a lot of different musical

19:03

walks of life. What

19:05

was the criteria? What did

19:07

you have to be able

19:10

to do to get into the orchestra?

19:13

You had to be able to

19:14

not play too well. That was the

19:16

criteria. Sandy would always say,

19:19

if you're too good, we're not going to let

19:21

you in because this is the really

19:23

terrible orchestra. We can't be getting

19:25

too good. On their

19:27

website, it says, auditions

19:30

require an amateur musician to be

19:32

able to read music and breathe

19:34

simultaneously.

19:37

If someone was deemed too good

19:39

at their instrument at their audition,

19:42

they were referred to another community

19:44

orchestra.

19:45

We call them in quotes, auditions.

19:49

Have you ever come across someone who you can tell

19:51

is trying to seem worse than they are just

19:54

so that they can get a seat?

19:56

No. Okay. No.

19:59

I haven't had that. It's been fairly rare.

20:01

I mean, maybe once every two years, we'll

20:03

get someone who I encourage

20:06

to find another group to play in.

20:08

We've had all ages,

20:11

six years old, to octogenarians.

20:15

We've had different instruments.

20:17

We've had a didgeridoo, a harpist,

20:21

a mandolin player, I

20:23

think even a banjo player. The

20:27

really terrible orchestra of the triangle decided

20:29

to start playing concerts.

20:32

They invited all their family and friends. They

20:35

had tickets and programs and sold

20:37

merchandise,

20:38

like a T-shirt that says, Bock

20:41

hates the really terrible orchestra.

20:44

And they were carefully planned diversions,

20:47

as Sandy would call them, earplugs

20:49

for the audience, a

20:52

program guide with lots of things

20:54

to do to distract you from the music,

20:57

and variety of skits from

20:59

delivering pizza and

21:01

dancing in the aisles. If

21:04

anybody has a cell phone or a

21:06

pager, we'd like to ask you to

21:08

pull it out of your pocket and turn it back on.

21:11

And Sandy would joke, like, don't practice too

21:14

much. You still want to be terrible. But

21:18

it was, and there was a great crowd. You know,

21:20

it was just really wonderful to see the

21:22

community, you know, show up for this

21:24

really terrible orchestra.

21:26

In 2009, Sandy Hobgood

21:29

told a local reporter, it's

21:31

turned into a kind of crusade, a kind

21:34

of mission.

21:35

I think we've tapped into a big need.

21:39

Sandy Hobgood conducted the really terrible

21:41

orchestra for eight years.

21:44

And then in the summer of 2016,

21:47

he was riding in a small off-road vehicle

21:49

that got into an accident while he was

21:51

on vacation.

21:53

He died from his injuries at age 71.

21:57

And I remember getting the email sort

21:59

of late at... night and

22:02

just literally thinking

22:04

this has got to be some kind of cruel

22:07

joke. Like there's just no

22:10

way it was so out of the blue. And

22:13

it came from Bob Petters,

22:16

the assistant conductor who had come

22:18

on a few seasons prior, and

22:21

it was complete shock. It

22:24

just, one of

22:26

those moments that takes your breath away, you know,

22:28

just this

22:30

friend, colleague,

22:32

just wonderful person who had

22:35

started this orchestra and let

22:37

a very full life was

22:40

gone.

22:41

And

22:43

I remember, you know,

22:45

just that, I don't know, that long

22:47

pause of sadness

22:50

and then that realization of like, well,

22:53

what do we do with the orchestra?

23:00

We'll be right back.

23:27

This week on Intuit, a TV

23:29

and movie fall preview. From

23:32

the new Scorsese film, Killers of the Flower

23:34

Moon, I was sent down from

23:36

Washington, D.C. to see about these murders. To

23:38

the Golden Bachelor. He's Gary.

23:41

And I'm your first Golden Bachelor.

23:44

We'll tell you what to watch. Also, a few

23:46

recommendations of stuff you might have missed

23:49

so far this year. Like Project

23:51

Greenlight. It's not excellent,

23:53

but it is a fascinating portrait

23:55

of making movies. And the problem

23:57

with making movies at

23:59

this. moment. This week

24:01

on Intuit, Vulture's Pop

24:03

Culture Podcast.

24:09

Sandy Hopgood's obituary said

24:11

he would be, quote,

24:13

remembered by many for his love of people

24:15

and the arts.

24:17

It went on. He was

24:19

driven to connect people through music and

24:21

laughter.

24:22

And one person commented,

24:25

he made me laugh many times when

24:27

I didn't want to. The

24:30

church where he'd played organ created

24:32

a memorial scholarship in his name to

24:35

pay for music lessons for a local student.

24:38

The members of the orchestra found out about

24:41

Sandy's death just a few weeks

24:43

before their ace season was set to begin.

24:46

I got a text from a friend of mine and

24:50

I was just devastated. Was

24:53

there an idea that maybe the orchestra

24:55

wouldn't go on, that Sandy had been so integral

24:58

in the creation and the spirit

25:00

of it that it would be hard to keep it going?

25:02

Well, I think in the back of my

25:05

mind, it was like, oh, it's going to be different

25:07

now. And of course, everything is different

25:10

from time to time.

25:13

You know, there was a lot of sadness,

25:17

but there was also a determination

25:20

to go on. I think the

25:22

spirit of the

25:23

members of the orchestra weren't going

25:26

to let it die. Bob

25:28

Petters, who had been the assistant

25:30

conductor,

25:31

took over Sandy's role as the

25:34

main conductor of the orchestra.

25:37

They started rehearsing again. I mean,

25:39

you have a grieving orchestra and you

25:42

have, you

25:44

know, a known entity assuming a larger

25:47

role. And, you know,

25:49

I think Bob was trying to navigate

25:52

what he wanted artistically, what

25:54

the orchestra needed and

25:56

what the grieving orchestra needed in

25:58

that time. One

26:02

of our viola players printed out

26:04

Sandy's picture and taped it to the conductor's

26:07

podium for the season.

26:09

And at the first concert, you know, we made

26:11

mention, dedicated it to him, and

26:14

we wore funny socks because Sandy

26:16

liked funny socks. At

26:18

that same concert, when it came time

26:21

to play Handel's Messiah, Bob

26:23

Petters left the podium. The

26:26

orchestra played without any conductor

26:28

at all

26:29

in Sandy's memory. He

26:44

really loved music, and

26:46

he loved leading musicians,

26:48

and he called us musicians. And

26:50

he made me see myself

26:53

as a musician. He

26:55

would say things like, I remember the first rehearsal,

26:58

he was trying to get us to be

27:00

soft some places in Loudon,

27:02

other places. And he would say,

27:04

it's more interesting

27:07

when you

27:08

play dynamically. And it was

27:10

just, I don't know, it was just like a quirk. I'd

27:12

never heard it referred to like that. But

27:16

he inspired me with confidence.

27:19

I think every time we play, it's a legacy

27:22

that he gave us all. Today,

27:25

the orchestra performs two concerts a

27:27

year, one around the holidays and

27:30

one in the spring.

27:32

Their concerts are still playful.

27:35

They have an emcee who tells jokes, and

27:37

they sometimes ask the audience to join them on

27:39

kazoos. Some of the players

27:42

wear sparkly outfits or funny hats

27:45

or flower crowns. Some

27:47

tie ribbons on the end of their bows.

27:51

They still hand out earplugs. Do

27:54

you remember a really terrible moment where

27:57

everything just started to fall apart? performance.

28:03

There have been a couple of scary

28:06

moments, even

28:09

the last concert, and there

28:12

were a couple of measures

28:14

where everybody's eyes went, uh-oh, we're

28:17

all in the wrong place,

28:19

but we got it back together, and I'm

28:21

sure somebody in the audience noticed, but we

28:23

were so proud that we got it back together, we didn't

28:25

care. I

28:27

mean, the one thing about Artude is it's made

28:29

up of people

28:31

who enjoy what they're doing, are

28:33

there because it's fun for

28:35

them, and we try our best,

28:38

but we don't take ourselves so seriously that

28:41

if we mess up, it's a disaster.

28:44

And what's the audience like at one of these concerts?

28:47

The audience is amazing. They come

28:50

for entertainment. They come to

28:52

support you. I mean, they're unlike

28:55

any audience anywhere. And

28:57

I've played with other groups now because I enjoy

29:00

playing, so I'll play with anybody

29:02

who asks me to play. But

29:04

the Artude audience is a special,

29:07

very special.

29:13

When you think of all the people who would not be

29:15

able to play their instrument, because

29:18

most orchestras assume you

29:20

have to audition and play a single

29:22

part, and

29:25

so many of them would never achieve

29:27

that. They don't have the time. A lot

29:30

of them don't play their instruments except for at

29:32

the rehearsal. So it gives

29:34

them an outlet, lets them continue

29:36

to play without any kind

29:38

of pressure

29:40

or expectation for you aren't good

29:42

enough. Playing

29:46

an instrument can lower your heart rate and

29:48

blood pressure. Musicians

29:51

also have better memories and attention

29:53

spans.

29:55

Research has also shown that for older

29:57

people, there can be psychological

29:59

benefits. to making music in a group, like

30:02

less loneliness, higher life satisfaction,

30:05

and lower levels of anxiety and depression.

30:09

One researcher wrote that making

30:11

music is, quote, spiritually

30:14

refreshing. Natalie

30:17

Full-Wider is 73 and

30:19

retired eight years ago.

30:22

Well, in addition to giving you something to do,

30:24

which is very important, and in addition to

30:26

being a very cognitively active

30:28

activity, which they say is good for old

30:31

age, it

30:33

gives me an opportunity to be with

30:35

people who are not all in their 70s. Oftentimes

30:39

70-year-olds are kind of

30:41

relegated to being at the

30:44

senior center. I

30:46

have friends who are in high

30:49

school. I play with people in college.

30:52

I play with people

30:54

of all ages. And if

30:56

you play together,

30:58

you have a relationship. Has

31:02

your, you know, picking

31:04

back up the oboe, this story, 43 years

31:06

later, I picked the oboe back up, inspired

31:09

anyone else you know to pick something

31:11

back up that they had left behind?

31:14

Yes. As a matter of

31:16

fact, a couple of years

31:19

into my artude experience,

31:22

Sandy asked me to play at

31:25

a church. He played the organ in a church, and

31:27

he asked

31:28

a couple of us to play for

31:30

Easter. So I went and we

31:32

played. And at the end of the service,

31:34

a woman came up and she said,

31:37

I majored in oboe

31:39

in college. And she

31:41

just kept looking at my oboe. And I said,

31:43

would you like to hold it? And she

31:45

picked it up.

31:47

Tears came to her eyes. And I said, you

31:49

really need to play again. I

31:52

told her about artude. It's a good way to get back

31:54

into it. I told her some places

31:57

that she could go to find a used oboe.

31:59

And she

32:02

picked it up. She's still playing.

32:04

She plays beautifully. It came back to

32:06

her a lot easier than it came back to me. And

32:10

it was a marvelous moment, just a marvelous

32:12

moment.

32:13

All

32:16

right. Procession

32:19

of the nobles. Wait

32:25

a minute. I know

32:27

the problem here. Let's start.

32:36

In most symphony orchestras, there are

32:38

between 80 and 100 players. Last

32:42

season, the really terrible orchestra far

32:45

surpassed that number.

32:46

I just got an order

32:48

of music because with 142

32:51

in the orchestra, we need more music. I

32:54

think we can still fit in the rehearsal

32:56

room.

32:57

142 people. We've

32:59

never had that many before. I mean,

33:01

are you nervous that you're at 142? Are

33:05

you going to have to start

33:07

changing your audition process?

33:11

Well. I mean, is the bar going to get lower

33:13

for how good you can be?

33:16

That's a good question. I haven't

33:18

thought about that. The only thing I've thought about

33:20

is I'm going to try to squeeze

33:23

all these players into six rows like we've

33:25

had before. And if

33:27

it doesn't work, we'll have to make seven rows.

33:30

So then the question is, can

33:33

we add any more?

33:36

Or do we start another orchestra? This

33:46

Is Love

33:46

is created by Lauren Spore and me.

33:49

Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie

33:51

Bishop is our supervising producer. Our

33:54

producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie

33:57

Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Cilison.

33:59

And Sam Kim.

34:02

Four. That was very good. Our technical

34:04

director is Rob Byers. Emma Munger

34:07

makes this episode. Engineering

34:09

by Russ Henry. Thank you. Learn more

34:11

about the show on our website, thisislovepodcast.com,

34:15

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34:56

Is Love is recorded in the studio of North

34:58

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35:02

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35:11

I'm Phoebe Judge, and this is

35:13

Love. All

35:29

right, as long as you're stuck.