1:54

age.

2:00

I was so small, but she was

2:02

like, if you're gonna do it, at least do it

2:04

in the studio. When Ashton

2:06

Edwards was four years old, they

2:09

began dancing at the Flint School of Performing

2:11

Arts in Flint, Michigan.

2:13

From the beginning, it became who I was.

2:16

I was the dancer, and

2:19

dance was me. Yeah,

2:21

it was one. And so it became

2:24

my personality, everything that I did,

2:27

everything that I researched, and

2:30

was passionate about was dance or

2:32

related to dance and music. But

2:35

it was all working towards the

2:37

goal of being a professional dancer. I was

2:40

pretty sure of it early. The

2:43

first ballet Ashton ever saw

2:46

was The Nutcracker.

2:48

One of my favorite dancers to this day, Brandy

2:50

Lee danced the role of Clara. And

2:53

it just, I saw myself in

2:56

her, or I saw a vision that I

2:58

wanted to be. Ashton

3:00

spent hours watching videos

3:02

of famous ballerinas

3:03

dancing on point on

3:05

the tips of their toes.

3:07

Ashton loved the ballet Swan

3:09

Lake, especially the role

3:11

of the Swan Queen. But

3:14

they noticed only female dancers

3:16

dance that role and got to dance on

3:18

point.

3:22

What was it about ballet that you loved?

3:26

It was just a fantasy.

3:30

Just, wow, I mean,

3:32

the

3:34

other worldliness of it, you

3:36

know, ascending from Earth when

3:40

you jump and turn, it just,

3:43

it took me to another place. And

3:45

yeah, I fell in love immediately. I

3:48

think

3:49

sing dance inspired

3:51

me to become the

3:54

vision. But the feeling

3:56

of dance just,

3:59

it set it. in stone that this is

4:01

what I needed to do in life because

4:04

it just felt so natural, so right.

4:07

Ashton had been awarded a scholarship to

4:09

attend ballet school.

4:11

Was your family supportive

4:13

about your dancing? I mean, yes,

4:15

we'll drop you off at the practices.

4:17

Yes, I mean, did you feel like everyone

4:20

was on board?

4:21

It definitely evolved

4:25

sooner than anyone expected, but

4:27

quickly everyone was on board.

4:30

In my early days, yeah, my mom just

4:32

dropped me off and she was, you

4:35

know, free childcare. With

4:37

the scholarship, it was great. It was me

4:39

and my little sister, and we had

4:41

our sack lunches, and we would just dance all day

4:44

on our Super Saturdays, is what they were called

4:46

at my studio. And then one

4:49

day my teacher brought my mom

4:51

in, and the story

4:54

goes is that she tells my mom that,

4:59

you know, Ashton has a gift. And

5:03

it's gonna need to be nurtured, and you know, typically

5:06

in these cases, when they do

5:09

train towards that professional career, they

5:11

leave home a little early, and they'll

5:14

attend summer programs where they'll be gone

5:16

for weeks at a time, and you

5:18

know, it'll be an adjustment, but if you

5:21

want to support Ashton, this

5:24

is what, you know, traditionally happens.

5:27

And so I guess at that point my mom was

5:30

like, oh, okay.

5:32

By this point, Ashton was

5:34

around 11 years old. Ashton's

5:37

mother didn't want them to leave home,

5:40

but she also wanted Ashton to be happy.

5:44

She was open to Ashton spending summers away from

5:46

home, and they traveled to Chicago

5:48

to audition for different training programs.

5:51

And so we would spend weekends in

5:53

Chicago while, you know, and I

5:55

would bring all of my homework, and

5:58

she would walk me. to Joffrey,

6:00

Chicago, or Ballet, Chicago, where the audition

6:03

would be. And she would put me

6:05

in like a thousand scarves

6:07

and huge jackets. She's like,

6:09

you have to stay warm. You can't break anything

6:11

in there. You know? But

6:14

she became sort of a, I

6:16

don't know if she was a dance mom or just

6:18

a really great mom, but

6:20

yeah, she was always on board and she gave me

6:23

everything I needed to be successful.

6:26

And so

6:30

I think that was

6:32

the first time that I realized that,

6:35

oh, this is for boys and girls

6:37

and I'm not quite either.

6:40

So hmm. And

6:43

I realized I fell short of

6:45

what a typical male ballet dancer

6:48

looked like. And you

6:51

know, the prowess they need to

6:53

partner and to jump really big. I

6:55

didn't really align with that vision

6:58

of ballet. It just wasn't exactly

7:01

who I was. You know, I kind

7:03

of was, it made me pretty nervous to

7:06

know if I was going to be successful at all in

7:08

finding a career at that point.

7:11

For people who don't exactly

7:13

know, what are the traditional

7:16

ballet gender roles and what is

7:18

kind of asked of those

7:21

certain roles?

7:23

Yeah,

7:24

I for the women. So the

7:26

women were taught to be silk like they

7:29

were gorgeous and delicate

7:32

with beautiful lines, legs and seat.

7:35

Sils is a word that was used

7:37

in the 16th century by a physician,

7:40

an alchemist named Paracelsus.

7:43

He believed the elements earth, fire,

7:45

water and air were each associated

7:48

with a supernatural spirit. Gnomes

7:51

were associated with earth, salamanders

7:54

with fire and undines or

7:56

mermaids with water. Sils

7:59

were everywhere.

7:59

In

8:02

the 19th century, the word silph also

8:05

began to be used to describe thin and

8:07

graceful women, and it was used

8:10

a lot to describe female ballet dancers.

8:14

They danced on their toes and

8:17

worked on their point training, which is

8:19

very hard and gruesome

8:22

work, but they

8:25

worked tirelessly to

8:27

make it look beautiful and effortless and

8:30

to be as light and delicate as possible. And

8:33

for the men, we were taught to partner and

8:35

to be more bravora,

8:38

which is to be more machismo

8:41

or more manly.

8:44

So it's, you know, the

8:46

normal ideals of male and female,

8:49

but to a more

8:51

classical tradition.

8:54

Male dancers traditionally do lots

8:57

of big jumps and turns and

8:59

lift female dancers above their heads and

9:02

traditionally don't dance on point.

9:05

Just explain what dancing

9:08

on point is.

9:10

To dance on point, for

9:13

most people, it

9:15

happens around 12 to 13

9:18

to 14. It's

9:20

a natural progression in ballet as

9:23

your feet get stronger to work

9:26

all the way up to full point. And it

9:28

just extends the line further so

9:30

that when you are

9:32

dancing, you look as if you're

9:34

floating across the stage. And

9:37

when you find that balance point, it's even more

9:39

impressive because, you know, you're above

9:41

the ground. But this position

9:44

is traditionally only left

9:46

for female dancers.

9:49

Ashton trained in what's called Vaganova

9:52

technique, named for the Russian ballet

9:54

dancer Agrippina Vaganova,

9:57

which is, you know, this old Russian

9:59

style. And

10:02

so it's very strict on like heads

10:04

and arms and everything has to be in a

10:06

certain place and space

10:09

in time.

10:11

But in 2019,

10:12

when Ashton was 16,

10:14

they went to an audition for the Pacific Northwest

10:17

Ballet Summer

10:17

Program.

10:19

And I get to this audition

10:22

and they play material

10:25

girl on the piano. And

10:27

we're doing these fast tandoos and

10:30

they just go with the rhythm and it's all kind

10:32

of chill

10:34

and relaxed and fun and free

10:36

flowing. And I'm

10:38

having a blast because I

10:41

can do a tandoo from my strict

10:43

training. But now we can move

10:46

and have fun with this new, it's

10:48

called Balanchine style,

10:51

this new American way of

10:53

doing ballet. So I was living. I just,

10:55

I had a ball.

11:00

The artistic director of Pacific Northwest

11:02

Ballet, Peter Bole, saw

11:05

Ashton audition that day.

11:07

And I got

11:09

home and he had his

11:11

assistant call me and, you know, he was just like,

11:14

before

11:14

anyone else got to you, we

11:16

wanted to reach out and ask

11:18

if you would like to train with us. And

11:21

I was just like, immediately,

11:23

yes. I knew it was the

11:25

place I wanted to be before. And

11:28

then to have that, you know, kind

11:31

of hand reaching out to

11:33

me, this small town kid

11:35

who, I don't know, I just, I

11:37

didn't think I was that great. But

11:41

to like have Peter Bole reaching

11:43

out to me, it was just, wow.

11:46

Ashton was invited to attend Pacific

11:48

Northwest Ballet's school year round. Their

11:51

mother agreed. So

11:53

Ashton moved to Seattle and lived with the

11:55

host family there. Ashton

11:58

loved it. Dancing all day. and

12:00

getting to perform with the company at night.

12:03

So when you first got to

12:06

Pacific Northwest Ballet, you were primarily

12:09

dancing male roles?

12:11

Yes. I did

12:13

all male roles with PMB my

12:15

first year in the school. I had

12:18

examples, finally. I had

12:20

dancers like Ben Griffiths,

12:22

who stood exactly at my height.

12:26

We were eye to eye. We were both five.

12:29

Five? I want to say that might be a little

12:31

generous. But

12:34

he saw me, and he took me under his wing. He was

12:36

just like, I know what it's like to be the small kid.

12:39

But there was a spot for

12:41

me at PMB. It wasn't

12:44

unusual for dancers to look different

12:46

at PMB already when

12:49

I got there. And so

12:52

Peter just saw my talent.

12:54

But then in 2020, Austin

12:57

and their classmates couldn't train in person

12:59

anymore.

13:00

COVID hit, and I was

13:02

stuck at home.

13:04

Ashton's host family made sure

13:06

they had a space to dance.

13:08

Sometimes in the family room, or next

13:10

to a bookshelf, or

13:14

on the patio outside

13:16

when it was nice and warm in the summertime.

13:20

And it was wonderful. I had a view of Seattle

13:24

from where I danced some days on the balcony.

13:27

Something happened while Ashton was dancing

13:30

alone, without anyone else around,

13:33

telling them which parts to dance.

13:35

And so when I was alone, yeah, I just

13:39

continued to find different ways to move,

13:42

and different ways to initiate

13:44

movement, different things that might inspire

13:46

me to create. And that

13:49

was old videos of beautiful

13:51

ballerinas that I had watched many, many, many,

13:54

many times over in Oregon.

13:57

And then one day, Ashton

13:59

put on the show.

13:59

pair of pointe shoes.

14:02

I was in these shoes that were so small.

14:05

They weren't mine. They belonged to someone else

14:07

but I just wanted to dance so I wore them

14:09

anyway. And

14:11

it just it felt so natural to

14:14

just extend the line to rise

14:16

all the way

14:19

up the full pointe in

14:21

my pointe shoes. And

14:23

I was like, you know, this feels

14:26

like what I should be doing.

14:29

And I don't exactly

14:31

know why I'm not.

14:34

I'm Phoebe Judge and this

14:37

is love.

14:44

We'll be right back.

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16:47

Did you tell your family,

16:48

your mother, that you were going to start dancing

16:52

on pointe and dancing or that

16:54

you were practicing dancing more

16:57

female roles?

17:00

I actually don't think

17:02

I did.

17:04

You know, now that I think

17:06

about it, I really don't think

17:07

I did because it kind

17:10

of all just happened.

17:12

I came out

17:15

and that was

17:16

a thing, you know, in my

17:19

community, in a

17:22

lot of Black communities. You

17:24

know, queerness is unacceptable.

17:29

It's, in a lot of ways for Black

17:32

mothers, it's terrifying to have

17:38

this other thing that others, their

17:40

child, you know? And

17:43

so I think there was a lot of fear for her

17:45

at that time. And so we didn't

17:47

have a lot of communication

17:49

for a

17:50

minute. And I

17:52

kind of did my own thing,

17:54

but I'm glad she gave me that space to

17:56

do so. I don't think I would have become

17:58

the person I am.

17:59

without it. Ashton

18:03

started dancing in pointe shoes every day. It

18:06

took some getting used to. They bruised

18:08

their toenails.

18:10

They started trying out different choreography, like

18:13

the role of Dewdrop and the Nutcracker. They'd

18:16

had the choreography memorized, since

18:19

they were a little kid. Eventually

18:22

Ashton decided to ask if the director of the

18:24

company, Peter, would let

18:26

them officially join the pointe classes

18:28

that were still being held over Zoom. I

18:31

wanted to be very clear that

18:34

I didn't want to destroy any opportunity

18:36

I had at joining the company,

18:40

but I also wanted to be

18:43

true to myself and

18:45

ask for what I felt like would

18:48

align my

18:52

art form, my craft, with

18:55

who I was. Ashton's

18:58

host mother, Michelle, helped them

19:00

figure out what to say. She

19:02

urged me to start the conversation

19:04

with Peter. She

19:07

helped me write down all my notes so that

19:09

I would go into my meeting prepared, and she

19:12

actually sat on Zoom with me, holding

19:15

my hand, because I was very nervous.

19:18

I brought up the question, why not?

19:22

Could I try this thing that

19:24

hasn't quite been done

19:26

officially in a major

19:28

company like this? I

19:31

asked to join

19:34

the level one dancers in their pointe classes

19:38

just to try. He

19:41

gave me the space, he gave me the opportunity,

19:43

he gave me the pointe shoes. And

19:48

so Peter did everything he could. He

19:51

turned to everyone, because this is

19:54

not something he's ever experienced in

19:56

himself. He never took any

19:59

classes.

19:59

or he didn't have real life experience.

20:02

So it became a community

20:05

kind

20:05

of thing because this

20:07

wasn't just amazing.

20:10

I think Peter and I quickly realized

20:13

that this would be changing the culture of

20:15

how we train students. So

20:19

I first felt uncomfortable

20:21

with my dress code. It

20:23

was very strict in the binary language of

20:27

the boys wear black and white and the girls

20:30

wear their black leotards and pink types.

20:33

And I just

20:35

asked the question, why? And

20:37

from that point, Peter reflected and just like,

20:42

I don't think there's actually a good

20:44

enough reason that we

20:46

need to keep it so binary. And

20:49

so in continuous discussions like these, the

20:53

rule book just exploded and

20:56

the language everywhere had to be changed.

21:00

Was it kind of like you were relearning

21:02

ballet in a way?

21:05

In so many ways, yes. I

21:07

had to start at square one. It was

21:10

a process of relearning everything in

21:12

these shoes and then building the

21:14

confidence because in

21:16

a point shoe, the

21:19

bottom of the shoe is not flat. So

21:24

you have the difficulty

21:26

of dancing on your toes but also

21:28

just standing flat on your foot

21:31

without rocking back and forth. So

21:35

dancing just became this new challenge,

21:37

this huge challenge again.

21:41

Did it ever feel discouraging?

21:43

Did you ever think, what am I doing?

21:46

Absolutely, absolutely.

21:49

I was discouraged most

21:52

of the time, not by anything that

21:54

anyone said to me directly, but

21:57

just standing in a room full of

21:59

these. incredible point dancers, I think

22:03

I didn't feel quite good enough for it.

22:05

I didn't think it was right. I didn't

22:09

think I

22:10

had what it took because these

22:12

girls had so many years on me of

22:15

just getting used to walking in the shoes.

22:19

I felt like I was just taking

22:21

a spot away from someone but knowing

22:25

that I was creating now,

22:28

knowing that I was creating a new spot

22:30

in dance,

22:32

it centered me.

22:36

What were you planning to do after you graduated?

22:40

I prayed and I prayed and

22:42

hoped that I would just get a job

22:44

in dance. The

22:46

reality though was

22:49

that I was

22:51

going to have to stop training on point

22:54

because no other company in

22:56

America had done

22:59

really anything where

23:01

a male-bodied person was

23:04

dancing on point, you

23:06

know, as a female dancer.

23:10

Ashton decided to audition in pointe shoes

23:12

anyway.

23:13

I felt like a shot in the dark.

23:16

I was really just hoping and praying that

23:19

it would work out and I would dance somewhere someday but

23:21

it was never done before.

23:23

And so

23:25

there was really no direction to

23:27

follow so my plans were

23:30

to try my best. I auditioned

23:32

for most companies in our

23:34

training program. They had directors

23:37

come in to watch class and

23:39

to choose dancers, plug dancers from

23:41

our school to dance because I was

23:43

professionally around America but

23:46

it wasn't working out.

23:48

No one would hire them and graduation

23:50

was coming up.

23:54

I didn't have the offers that my colleagues

23:57

did, my classmates did and so

23:59

I was planning on giving

24:03

it up.

24:04

I was going to have to

24:07

try the whole audition thing again, without

24:10

the pointe shoes.

24:15

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26:37

One day, Peter Bohl, the

26:40

artistic director of the Pacific Northwest

26:42

Ballet, reached out to Ashton

26:44

Edwards and asked if they would be

26:46

free for a phone call.

26:48

And so at this point, I wasn't

26:50

getting any offers anywhere else. And

26:53

so my plan was to stop dancing on point.

26:56

And I thought he was

26:58

probably going to encourage me to do so. And

27:02

you know, just tell me, you know, you

27:04

have to be practical. You know, there's

27:08

very few jobs in America. So

27:11

many dancers. It

27:13

didn't look good. And I thought he was

27:16

just going to encourage me to give it up. And

27:19

so I got on the phone with Peter and I

27:21

remember I turned off all the lights in my apartment

27:25

and I made my bed extra cuddly, you

27:27

know, for the cry sesh. And

27:29

I just prepared for the worst. And I called

27:32

Peter and he said, you

27:34

know, Ashton, I don't

27:36

want you to go anywhere. I really don't. So

27:39

I would like to give you the job. And

27:43

my jaw was on the floor. Like, I

27:45

couldn't believe it. And

27:47

I just jumped for joy and I cried and

27:49

I cried. So I did actually need

27:51

the blanket, but for the best reason, I called

27:54

my mom and it was just

27:56

the greatest day that I didn't

27:59

see coming.

27:59

at all.

28:02

Ashton would be able to dance both traditionally

28:04

male and female roles on

28:06

point with Pacific Northwest Ballet.

28:10

They joined in November 2021 at age 18.

28:15

The company was getting ready to perform the Nutcracker.

28:19

Ashton began rehearsing for the Snow Scene,

28:21

a scene with 16 dancers

28:22

on point, wearing long

28:25

white and blue tulle dresses. There's

28:28

snow slowly falling onto the stage

28:30

during the whole scene. It

28:33

would be the first time Ashton would ever

28:35

perform on

28:36

stage in pointe shoes. So

28:39

it was this ballet that I knew like

28:41

the back of my hand which helped a lot.

28:44

Nonetheless terrifying

28:47

because

28:48

just this one piece is kind of

28:50

the hardest thing in the ballet.

28:53

The Dance of Snow. And

28:55

I just did this one entrance where

28:58

I run around in a loop. I

29:01

run from wing to wing and

29:05

I

29:06

decided

29:08

moments before I went on that

29:12

if I didn't enjoy this moment it

29:15

would be disrespectful

29:18

to everyone in the audience

29:21

first and then to

29:23

me, to that little kid

29:26

who dreamt of this moment who really

29:28

didn't think there was space in

29:31

the world for me. I

29:34

couldn't do that small person myself

29:38

a disservice

29:39

by not living in the moment. And

29:42

so as I took my first steps out onto

29:44

the stage my face lit

29:46

up uncontrollably. It

29:49

all felt natural again. In

29:51

the pointe shoes running

29:54

in a loop on the stage in

29:57

the crown and tutu I felt

29:59

like myself.

30:08

When the Nutcracker came around again the next

30:10

year, Ashton got to perform

30:12

Dew Drop, a solo role.

30:15

Ashton's mother came to Seattle for the show.

30:19

She got to watch me dance on point

30:21

for the first time, dancing this role

30:23

that I have been dancing in my kitchen,

30:26

you know, since I was 12. Like

30:30

I don't even have to think about the choreography, it just kind

30:32

of happens because I've been in love

30:34

with this role in Valentines Nutcracker.

30:37

And yeah, that was kind of our full

30:40

circle moment where we finally kind

30:42

of acknowledged everything and

30:45

I felt her acceptance, her

30:47

pride, her

30:51

love for me. What

30:53

did she say to you after the show?

30:56

I think

30:58

she did her crying thing before

31:01

she got to me because it took a while,

31:03

you know, I had to go back and get undressed

31:06

and take off all the pieces. She

31:08

just kind of, she

31:10

was like, wow, they really love you. Because

31:14

it was an epic night, you know, it

31:17

was so cool. Amanda

31:20

Morgan, who is this gorgeous,

31:22

tall black woman, did

31:25

the lead role, Sugar Pump Fairy. And

31:27

you know, you have this

31:29

queer, non-binary, black dancer dancing

31:32

Dew Drop. And so it

31:34

was pretty cool. It was a pretty cool

31:36

night and the crowd was roaring.

31:41

And so, yeah, sharing that with her was really

31:43

special. And I

31:45

think she finally kind of

31:48

understood the weight of ballet

31:51

and what it felt like for me. And

31:54

she was just so proud. And

31:57

so that was awesome, awesome, awesome

31:59

to make. my mom proud

32:02

in that way.

32:05

This past spring, Ashton performed

32:07

as Puck in A Midsummer Night's Dream, a

32:10

role that is traditionally danced by a male dancer.

32:14

I look at these ballets and

32:16

these two characters, Doudrop

32:18

and Puck, and I don't really

32:21

see

32:21

a huge difference in

32:24

terms of their etherealness.

32:27

Their otherworldliness,

32:29

they're not real people. They

32:35

don't necessarily have genders, and

32:39

they are only how you

32:41

experience them. They

32:45

only exist how you believe

32:47

them to. For

32:49

me, it's not, you know, a

32:53

man or a woman, Puck

32:55

or Doudrop. These are two

32:57

beings who just exist and

33:00

create magic.

33:12

In the past, at Pacific

33:14

Northwest Ballet School, female

33:17

students in the Professional Division could

33:19

get pointe shoes.

33:21

That's changed.

33:23

Now any Professional Division student

33:25

can receive pointe shoes if they like.

33:38

This

33:55

episode was mixed by Veronica Siminetti, engineering

33:58

by Russ Henry. Learn

34:00

more about the show on our website, thisislovepodcast.com,

34:04

and you can sign up for our newsletter at thisislovepodcast.com

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34:29

This Is Love Show. This Is Love

34:31

is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public

34:33

Radio, WUNC. We're

34:35

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34:38

Network. Discover more great

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shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

34:44

I'm Phoebe Judge, and this

34:47

is love.

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