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at noon dot com slash

1:43

tweet. It's

1:50

time for Twitter. This week in Tech, The

1:52

show we cover the week's, Tech

1:54

News. This is gonna be

1:56

a fun filled episode. David Spark

1:59

is here. Host a producer

2:01

of CISOs series is all about the security.

2:04

Known David says check TV

2:06

days. Hello, David? or

2:08

to see, that's nineteen ninety

2:10

eight. That's that's a long

2:12

time. Wow.

2:13

Somebody -- For years. --

2:16

somebody on the YouTube

2:19

Buy's old crap. And

2:22

I was watching his YouTube actually somebody else was

2:24

in, they sent me a link, but watching his YouTube

2:26

channel. and he found a DVC

2:30

recorder and with it

2:32

a handful of DVC pro

2:35

tapes of the call for help show.

2:38

And III sent him I

2:40

commented on his YouTube, I said,

2:42

dude, that's how we recorded the show. Those could

2:44

be masters. That's probably not a dove.

2:46

That's probably a master. Probably.

2:49

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, great to

2:51

see you, David. Thank you for joining us. I don't know why

2:53

I brought that up. Also here,

2:55

Here's other things to talk about. Believe me.

2:57

Amy Webb, CEO of the Future Today Institute,

3:00

our favorite futurist. Hi Amy. Hey,

3:03

Leo. She's just back from a

3:05

ten mile hike with

3:07

the girl scouts? Or what is She's

3:09

actually with the scouts.

3:11

So my daughter is

3:13

in one of the first and only

3:15

all girls boy scout troops.

3:18

Is that cool? and

3:20

they're all working towards their Eagle Scout badge.

3:22

Oh, I love it. Awesome.

3:25

And we just did a I mean,

3:27

it wasn't a know, wasn't brutal, but

3:29

it was pretty steep steep

3:32

hike. It was backpacking, and then it was backcountry

3:35

camping. So everything you carry in and

3:37

everything you carry out and it was snowing and

3:39

cold and Is this for a badge or just for

3:41

fun? This was just for

3:43

grit. and

3:45

experience. And you have No. No. -- you

3:47

have grit. I I have some. I used to do a

3:49

lot of that when I was younger and my hips didn't

3:51

hurt like they did today, but I took some

3:53

anti inflammatory medication with -- There

3:55

you go. -- managed to get through it. We,

3:58

you know, I was at the Veterans Day parade on Saturday

3:59

or Friday. and

4:02

the scout troop came and it was half

4:04

girls.

4:05

Yeah. And it reminded me, yeah, it's scouting

4:07

now. It's just scouting. Yeah. It's scouting. It's

4:09

you know, the girl scouts kinda tap out at

4:11

some point, and this is

4:13

really about this troop is amazing, and it's

4:15

all about leadership

4:19

and sort of being independent and

4:22

building confidence, and it's really incredible.

4:24

The troop leaders are amazing. There

4:26

are there were the first female

4:28

eagle scout. Was

4:30

his first was one of them. And that is not her,

4:32

but are we we have one of the first.

4:34

Look at all those merit badges. A hundred

4:36

and thirty seven of them. It's

4:38

I will tell you it is no joke, and these

4:41

kids are these kids are tough. They

4:43

are resilient. If you've got a

4:45

daughter or a son or or a person,

4:47

a non binary person, I

4:49

I'll put a good word in for scouts that it

4:51

really is pretty great. That's By the

4:53

way, transformation for

4:55

-- Yeah. -- BSA. So I'm very,

4:57

very glad to hear that, and I love it that

4:59

there are women

5:00

eagle scouts now. That's fantastic.

5:03

Welcome, Amy. Good to have you.

5:05

Thanks. And

5:08

the digital jesuit, because David

5:10

said, who are you? What is this DJ?

5:12

He is the digital jesuit

5:15

father Robert Palisir. Hello, Robert?

5:18

Oh, I'm sorry, Leo. I didn't realize you would come

5:20

in. You're way

5:22

too cool for school. Great

5:24

to see you, padre. In

5:27

the Vatican, when we

5:29

go out there to visit you in April,

5:31

Robert says, let's do the show. We'll

5:33

do Twitter from this this roof.

5:36

overlooking the

5:38

Vatican. I Can

5:41

we do it? This one. Can we do

5:43

that? We absolutely

5:45

can. I mean, this this view right here

5:47

is about ten steps from my office

5:50

on the same floor. So I just

5:52

move a few monitors and some cables, and we're

5:54

good to go to do it. It's a deal. April.

5:57

Yeah. Benito says you're gonna need an engineer

5:59

for that. Yeah. Benito will take you. We

6:02

will take you. So what a

6:04

week we have had it's

6:08

not it's not normal that I would have

6:10

two stories vying for our

6:12

lead, but there are two massive

6:14

stories and they are somewhat interlocking, I

6:16

think. There's, of course, the collapse

6:18

of FTX and of Crypto

6:20

in general. And then

6:22

the ongoing

6:25

hire at Twitter. Let

6:28

let's start with Twitter because we've been talking before the show and

6:30

we all have strong opinions about

6:32

this. The latest Twitter

6:34

news is coming out.

6:36

And again, a lot of this news, you

6:40

they who was it? The the

6:42

verge. Somebody tried to contact Elon

6:45

Twitter for a comment, and the response

6:47

was Twitter has no communications department

6:50

anymore. So there's no way to no

6:52

way to really know if

6:55

any of this is true or not, but the latest

6:57

seems to be true which

7:00

is that forty

7:02

four hundred contract

7:05

employees were summarily terminated

7:08

this weekend. That's on top

7:10

of the fifty percent that they dumped.

7:12

That's

7:12

on top of the employees. So they

7:14

they dumped somewhere around three

7:17

thousand to four thousand employees,

7:20

many of whom have vast but that's to come

7:22

back. But then now

7:24

the latest is these contract employees, and

7:26

it seems to be. They didn't tell them

7:28

ahead of time. They just disconnected their

7:30

Slack. They disconnected their

7:32

tools and disconnected their company

7:34

email. because, you know what? They're just

7:36

contractors. And, of

7:38

course, they get no Unfortunately, it's That's a security

7:40

issue there. That I I mean, it doesn't Well,

7:42

they could send an email at the same time saying

7:45

were terminating your contract. They

7:47

apparently neglected to do that. I

7:49

which I could listen. With the amount of animosity

7:52

right now, I can absolutely if it

7:54

was me I don't David

7:56

should speak to this. But if I was the seesaw or if was

7:58

the the Oh, yeah. So, by the way,

7:59

quit.

8:00

Yeah. They don't have a seesaw.

8:03

Well, I would have shut everything down first also.

8:05

I mean, it's not the humane nice thing to

8:07

do, but it's the safe thing to do. That

8:09

is, by the way, the process when people

8:12

leave. The

8:12

the security department does

8:14

a process of, you know,

8:16

closing accounts, removing access,

8:19

things like that still, you know,

8:20

identity management.

8:23

And

8:24

if you're doing things that quickly, I don't

8:26

see how you can physically

8:28

shut that many people down that quickly.

8:30

I don't know. Yeah. See how that deposits.

8:32

Yeah. Yeah. I mean and

8:34

I feel for anybody laid off, there were eleven

8:37

thousand layoffs that matter this week also. I

8:39

mean, this is a tough time. A

8:41

lot of those employees

8:43

matter handled it kind of

8:45

dramatically differently than

8:47

Twitter handled it. But it's

8:49

hard to lose a job whether or not you get

8:51

severance whether, you know, you get you

8:54

know, health care and so forth. You're you're still out

8:56

of work. So according to

8:58

Casey Newton, on the platformer newsletter,

9:01

contractors aren't being notified at all. They're

9:03

just losing access to Slack and email.

9:07

Managers figured it out when their workers just

9:09

disappeared from their system. So

9:12

there is normally some

9:14

notification even if it happens after the

9:16

fact. The the stripe is

9:18

the good example. Right? So the seat Stripe

9:20

also has some layoffs in the middle of every the

9:22

catastrophe that was happening at Twitter and

9:24

meta. I think that the

9:26

the letter that was public you know, they didn't

9:28

sign it, by the way, stripe. They signed

9:30

up the names of them like the CEO.

9:32

You know, their actual names were

9:34

signed, and it was humane and

9:36

honest. And I think If it's gotta

9:38

be done, that's a much

9:41

nicer way to do it. I

9:43

I do wonder though The big issue Go

9:45

ahead. It's the fact that they've they let go of a huge

9:47

chunk of infrastructure workers. And

9:49

according to some reports, they let go of some

9:51

infrastructure workers in the middle of changes.

9:54

that's a recipe for disaster

9:56

for a company that has already let go

9:58

so many of their engineers. They

9:59

don't know what most of the moving

10:02

parts do.

10:03

So right now it's coasting on inertia.

10:05

You are actually watching the disaster unfold

10:07

is what we're actually watching. Can I add a

10:10

disaster to this disaster? because nobody's really talking

10:12

about it yet? So because of

10:14

the inflation rate, there

10:16

are a lot of companies that still

10:18

have pensions where

10:20

people who work anywhere close to like, if

10:22

you're close to retirement and you do the math and

10:24

it it works out that you're gonna if

10:26

you if you put in those last two's years

10:28

of work, you're effectively working for free.

10:31

Those people are taking early retirement,

10:33

and that's all happening between

10:35

now and the end of the month. We are going

10:37

to see tens of potentially

10:39

tens of thousands of

10:42

people who are retiring all

10:44

at once. on top of all of

10:46

these people who are now out of work, there's

10:48

gonna be disastrous economic consequences that

10:50

I don't think we're prepared for. Howard Bauchner:

10:52

Let me ask David because you

10:54

you do cover CSOs. How

10:58

the CSO of Twitter departed?

11:00

He left with the head of

11:02

Trust y'all Roth, who had been

11:04

kind of tweeting and trying to calm

11:07

people down, and the head of

11:09

advertising, and a number

11:11

of executives, and

11:13

they all left Why

11:15

at the same time? Well,

11:18

some were let go, some chose

11:20

to go, but I actually don't know

11:22

specifically the reason why the seats were left, but I

11:24

mean, I do. We wanna know talking

11:26

about it here. You wanna know?

11:29

So there was an

11:31

internal Slack message

11:33

from an unnamed lawyer

11:36

saying in internal,

11:38

in Twitter, saying,

11:42

look,

11:42

We've

11:45

lost all compliance people.

11:48

We are under an

11:50

FTC consent decree which

11:52

we've already paid a more than a hundred million

11:54

dollars for the consent

11:56

decree says before get listen to

11:58

this. Before Twitter rolls out any new feature,

12:00

It has to be vetted for security

12:02

and you have to tell us the FTC

12:06

how what you're doing and how secure it

12:08

is. This message went out saying,

12:10

we're very concerned because

12:12

this compliance is now on

12:14

the head of engineering. You are responsible

12:16

for certifying the compliance

12:18

to the consent decree of any new

12:21

feature you roll out, and there's no one

12:23

above you to do it. at

12:25

which point there was a mass

12:27

head for the exit because

12:29

people don't wanna be responsible for

12:32

that. They he quoted the

12:34

I guess, the defector chief counsel,

12:36

which is Elon Musk's personal lawyer,

12:39

saying, this is a man who launches rockets.

12:41

He's not scared of the FTC. To

12:45

which some reported That's apples and

12:47

oranges. Yeah. To which some recorded

12:49

look, you've already been fined a hundred fourteen

12:51

million dollars. The next one's gonna

12:54

be another comma

12:56

over, that this is

12:58

really serious. And of course, the same

13:00

day, president Biden when asked about

13:02

this, said, yeah, we're gonna keep an eye

13:04

on this. And

13:06

I think that part

13:08

of the reason the CISO left is

13:10

that

13:11

there's some serious concern about liability

13:13

landing on his shoulders.

13:16

Well, that's, you know, that

13:18

is by the way the big discussion that's

13:20

been happening among Caesar's so I'll I'll

13:22

rope in the Joe Sullivan, you know, Uber

13:24

story as well. When that

13:26

broke and he was found guilty, that

13:28

would all CSOs start to

13:30

worry for themselves, and this

13:32

became a big issue about getting

13:34

an employment agreement when

13:37

you take on the role of a CSO. But

13:39

There is no

13:41

similarity, I believe, between

13:43

Joe Sullivan and the

13:46

CISO of Twitter who just left it. There is

13:48

none whatsoever. here.

13:50

And, you know,

13:52

CISOs we we

13:54

were talking about this on our show recently

13:56

about about burnout, about cyber

13:58

security, professionals. If if

14:00

you've got bad culture

14:02

and unreasonable expectations looks

14:05

like the formulary we got here that

14:07

is cybersecurity burnout and that's why

14:09

people leave. So it is like the

14:11

magical formula that's happened to Twitter.

14:13

So that's why you are getting people

14:15

burnt out. and mass of

14:17

exodus, not just of Elon's

14:20

doing, but others choosing to go. Because

14:22

there's no question to have Twitter on your

14:24

resume, and to be available in the

14:26

cybersecurity space right now, you will be

14:28

snatched up immediately. I mean, every

14:30

seesaw we have on our shows, well, not

14:32

every. I'll say almost every. is

14:34

looking to hire. So if you

14:36

worked in cyber security and you were in

14:38

Twitter, you will have no problem finding

14:40

another job.

14:40

So let me

14:43

first of all, correct myself. The CISO was a

14:45

woman. Leah kissed me. So I apologize

14:47

not he, she. Lea

14:50

kissed her legs. No. I mean, I'm I'm think I I'm sorry.

14:52

Take the back. Is it I think Lea is a

14:54

male. No. No. Lea is a woman. Am I wrong?

14:56

I checked. Excuse my It could be it could be late. It

14:58

could be Leah. I checked.

15:00

Chief privacy officer Damon Kieran.

15:02

Damon Kieran, chief compliance

15:05

officer Mary Anne Fogarty, all left at the

15:07

same time. Now,

15:10

I've got a story from Bloomberg from a few

15:12

days ago in which Spiro who's Elon's

15:15

lawyer said Twitter has spoken to the

15:17

FTC. Its first

15:19

compliance check is upcoming. but

15:21

he said, don't worry, the legal department is

15:23

handling it.

15:24

Didn't didn't somebody didn't one of

15:26

the GCs send a

15:28

Slack or something to the remaining Twitter. That's the

15:30

one I was talking about. Yeah. About the the

15:33

whistle blowing. Yeah. And that's that's pretty He

15:35

he said you should all become whistle

15:37

blowers. This is internal.

15:39

Well,

15:39

it wasn't you I mean, wasn't it more

15:42

like if you choose

15:42

to to disclose, you are you

15:45

know, you should know that you are covered by

15:47

I mean, by the, you know, whistleblower in

15:49

the United States, wasn't it -- Yeah. -- for I

15:51

mean It was just reaching out

15:53

and saying, you you could have some personal liability

15:56

here. So Well, that's a good question

15:58

I have. I got you about. Okay. So that's one question

16:00

I've got for all of you, maybe David

16:02

mostly.

16:02

So if you're

16:04

if

16:04

you were chief privacy officer, compliance

16:06

officer, CSO, do

16:08

you assume personal liability if something

16:10

goes wrong or is that No. That's the

16:12

that's the employment agreement that I was referencing

16:15

earlier. Is yeah.

16:17

You know, Steve But they were they were leaving

16:19

agreement. are are

16:21

making a huge mistake. Right. So they would not

16:23

have been I mean, they were leaving because they don't wanna either

16:25

be a part of what's happening or they don't wanna deal with the

16:27

aftermath of what's happening. And that's the other thing. Is it CECOs

16:30

do not and,

16:31

you know, security professionals do not own

16:33

risk. Don't own cyber security

16:35

risk of the company. Their job is to

16:37

explain risk to the business

16:39

leaders. And it is for the business leader to

16:41

take on the risk who's saying, if you do this

16:43

and compliance is a perfect example of it

16:45

because that is a very known

16:47

risk where there's a very clear financial

16:50

loss that can be had if you are not

16:52

compliant. I mean, it's it's clear's

16:54

day. Right? Is there like a medical you know,

16:56

how there's malpractice? Is there such a thing as

16:58

malpractice in risk and

17:00

compliance and security?

17:02

I mean, There had There's always

17:04

something I don't know. There's always to be

17:06

bad. It's something that's analogous

17:08

to malpractice to malpractice. The company could

17:10

say in the contract. We indemn the

17:12

by you against any judgments from

17:14

the FTC. But there's always

17:17

a risk if the FTC says sees

17:20

that this employee knew that something

17:22

bad was happening and didn't do

17:24

anything about it. I

17:26

don't care if the company identifies,

17:28

indemnifies you, I feel like that

17:30

employee is somewhat at risk -- Okay. --

17:32

and has some responsibility. Am I wrong?

17:34

David, you can't you can't

17:36

say, you know, it's not my fault. Look

17:38

at my contract. No. Yeah. So the job

17:41

of the seesaw is

17:43

to communicate

17:44

the risk situation, like,

17:47

okay, if we don't do this, if

17:49

we don't meet this compliance regulation

17:51

or this this regulation, which

17:53

is a compliant requirement, then you

17:55

will be fined this. It is very clear.

17:58

If we don't do this, you know,

18:00

we don't have endpoint protection out

18:02

here, then there's a

18:04

possibility someone's gonna break in our network.

18:06

That's gonna increase our risk levels here. Are

18:08

you aware of that? And one of the big things

18:10

CISOs do when they're

18:12

explaining risk the businesses they

18:14

say, here's what the risk

18:16

situation is for not doing this. We

18:18

can spend x dollars to

18:20

reduce this risk Are

18:22

you aware that

18:23

do you wanna spend that As long as you

18:25

already spend this money, then they have to sign

18:27

off on the race. That's a key thing. They

18:29

have to actually sign I acknowledge this as

18:31

a risk. Right. But what's the report? Okay. So

18:33

fine. What does that mean though? If if

18:36

it turns out that it was communicated to

18:38

them? What situation was. Right. But

18:40

what's the repercussion as well? Well, let me let

18:42

me read this thing. By the way, this comes just really

18:44

a paper trail is what we're looking at. This comes from

18:46

Alex Heath at the verge who

18:48

says we know who this

18:50

person inside Twitter is. Obviously, we're not

18:52

gonna reveal that. They looked

18:54

at the Slack message and

18:56

wrote this in a note posted to Twitter's Slack and

18:58

viewable to all staff, an

19:00

attorney on the company's privacy team

19:03

wrote, quote, Elon

19:05

has shown this is somebody inside. Elon

19:07

has shown his only priority with Twitter users

19:09

is how to monetize them. I do not

19:11

believe he cares about the human rights activists,

19:14

the dissidents, our users in

19:16

unmonetizable regions and all the other users

19:18

who made Twitter the global town square you've

19:20

all spent so long building

19:22

and we all love

19:24

It says he has heard that

19:26

Alex Spiro, the current head of legal, says

19:28

that Elon's willing to take on a huge amount of

19:30

risk in relation to this

19:33

company. Musk's new legal

19:35

department is asking engineers, and this is a good

19:37

question for you,

19:39

David, to, quote, self certify

19:42

compliance with FTC rules,

19:44

and other privacy laws. This is in

19:46

that lawyer's notes.

19:47

And The

19:48

verge checked another employee, familiar

19:51

with the matter, said the same.

19:53

And so at that point,

19:55

the lawyer said, if you're being asked to do

19:57

anything you're uncomfortable with become

19:59

a whistleblower. Mhmm. If

20:02

if you were uncomfortable, you knew there was something

20:04

bad Nobody upstairs was willing to

20:06

hear it or sign off on it. Do that process

20:09

that orderly process you're talking

20:11

about, David. I think you

20:13

have to go to the FTC at that point.

20:15

Don't you? You can't just sit

20:16

on it. Please, I mean, you

20:19

know, if you

20:21

see see someone being negligent, but

20:23

also you may have NDAs

20:25

that you've signed as an

20:27

impasse. But that's why you go whistleblower because

20:29

that that obviates the

20:31

NDA. Yeah. I guess. I mean But it

20:33

sounds like there's no obligation other

20:35

than maybe moral obligation. Certainly a

20:37

moral obligation. Yeah. That's right. thing

20:39

is, like, for example, one of the things we

20:41

hear a lot from CSOs is

20:43

you

20:43

know, I'm not running the business. It's my job

20:46

to reduce the risk, communicate

20:48

the risk, and do my best on

20:50

that. If someone chooses

20:52

to do something that I don't agree with.

20:54

It's not my responsibility because I'm not running

20:56

the business. So I'm just

20:59

communicating to them, but it's very, very

21:01

important that they acknowledge, they understand

21:03

it, and they sign off on it, which I'm sorry.

21:05

Let let's just get into the greater discussion

21:07

of business. Businesses are in the

21:09

business all businesses take on

21:12

risk, not just cybersecurity risk, there's all

21:14

kinds of risk. So they

21:16

have to acknowledge it. So,

21:18

you know, Some people are riskier

21:20

investors and others. You

21:22

can't bring, you know, cyber risk down to zero,

21:24

so you're willing to take certain risks in certain

21:26

areas to maybe open up the business to do other

21:29

things. And that is pretty clear. That's

21:31

what Elon is doing here.

21:33

He's take on a lot of risks. This is what's

21:35

I think Elon is doing something different. Oh, good.

21:37

I think he is And that is Hold on. Hold the

21:39

thought because we're gonna get to hold on. I really wanna

21:42

know because that's the next step.

21:44

We're just talking about horrible things that have happened, and I don't

21:46

wanna know why. The the

21:49

final paragraphs of this

21:52

lawyer's Slack message is All

21:54

of this is extremely dangerous for

21:56

our users. Also, given that

21:58

the FTC can and will find

22:00

Twitter billions of dollars, pursuant

22:03

to the FTC consent order extremely

22:05

detrimental to Twitter's longevity as a

22:07

platform where users deserve better than this. I

22:09

would guess this person's gone, by the way, by

22:11

now. feel uncomfortable on anything you're being asked to

22:13

do, call Twitter ethics hotline or

22:16

submit a report, please note the

22:18

FTC's number is FTC

22:20

You may also remember that MUDGE

22:22

reached out to whistleblower aid dot

22:24

org. I wish you all luck. It's

22:26

been an honor to work with all of you.

22:29

That is that is a, you know, career

22:31

suicide note if I ever

22:33

I've ever heard one. There have been I

22:35

have seen a lot of people warning

22:37

the

22:38

security

22:39

status of Twitter is now

22:41

unknown. That if you have you should never have had

22:43

anything private in your DM, but if you do,

22:45

get, you know, erase your DMs, download

22:48

your data. Is

22:51

there do you think there's cause for

22:53

concern about The security

22:55

of Twitter? Robert?

22:58

Yes. Absolutely. And back to the

23:00

FTC agreement. Remember, in the two

23:02

thousand eleven FTC agreement,

23:04

In part b, this was the this was the nuts and bolts part of

23:06

the of the two thousand eleven agreement. It

23:09

says that there has to be someone

23:11

or someone's who

23:13

are specifically designated by name to be

23:15

accountable for and accountable is a very

23:17

important legal word for the information

23:20

security program. There

23:22

is no one like that. At Twitter, they

23:24

have all quit. So that

23:26

means that the company is now in material

23:28

breach of the of the two thousand eleven

23:30

FTC agreement If they are in breach of the

23:32

two thousand eleven FTC agreement, that means that

23:34

you cannot count on them to secure

23:36

any of the data that they

23:38

currently have. And if there's any question about by the way, they can

23:40

name by the way, they can name quote any

23:42

individual to quote be in charge even though they

23:44

have don't technically have a CSO

23:46

anymore. And by the way, that's

23:48

interesting that you brought that up,

23:50

Padre. Because you

23:51

will see there's a lot of new or

23:53

a lot of companies that have been around for

23:55

a long time that are all of a sudden getting their

23:57

very first CSOs now.

23:59

Yes. Yes. They're

24:01

they're growing up. Yes.

24:05

Senator Ed Markey. So now let's get to the

24:07

impersonation problem because that's another thing

24:09

that happened this week. Remember the

24:11

humorous, I must say. It was very funny.

24:14

thought it was actually some of it might have been funny. Some of

24:16

it was really catastrophic. Some of it was especially if you

24:18

were in that early. really

24:21

situation. Well, Yes. That

24:23

also. And but, like, Nintendo, you

24:25

know, which was Mario was sleeping a lot

24:27

of seconds because Right. But there were a lot of

24:29

horrific images, and that happened in the

24:31

middle of of the night for Japan. I

24:33

actually talked to some of my friends

24:35

there, you know, that that was nothing

24:37

that anybody was preparing for, like, two o'clock

24:39

in the morning. So as

24:41

we know, Elon says for eight bucks, you

24:43

can buy blue check, which

24:45

prior to this meant authentication,

24:47

there was a lot of back and

24:50

forth For

24:52

a while, for, like, five minutes, Mark has Brown

24:54

Lake tweeted, look, not only do I have a blue check, but now

24:56

it says this is an

24:58

official account. I have a great check. And

25:00

then Elon replied, not not

25:03

anymore. That went away. apparently,

25:05

they put a hold on on they you could still buy

25:07

Twitter Blue for eight ninety nine, but you won't get a blue check

25:09

to put a hold on that. But in the but

25:11

in between those times, there were people impersonating

25:15

authenticated in personating Elon,

25:17

Kathy Griffin, got booted off the platform for

25:19

saying she was Elon.

25:21

Elon said you could do this, but you have to say

25:23

it's a parody account Saturday, did

25:25

Facebook do that for a while? They're sort of

25:28

labeling things parody, and

25:29

that that

25:30

seemed to go away. Yeah.

25:32

I

25:32

mean, the problem with parity and

25:35

this is the famous It's it's a huge definition

25:37

of parity. Right. Well, and this is also the

25:39

famous onion pleading. in

25:42

the in the supreme court cases. If it

25:44

has to be labeled parity, that kinda takes some

25:46

of the

25:46

fun items. Even Colbert had a joke about

25:48

this the other day. told the chicken cross

25:50

the road joke, but set it up with explaining

25:53

that he was about to tell him. I'm about to tell a joke. He

25:55

kills the joke. Right? Yes.

25:57

Ed Markey. tweeting,

25:58

senator Markey, v senator Markey. A

26:00

Washington post reporter was able to create

26:02

a verified account impersonating me.

26:05

I'm asking for answers from Elon Musk

26:08

who's putting profits over people and

26:10

his debt overstopping disinformation

26:13

He sent a letter to a Musk, of course,

26:15

as as senators like to

26:18

do. And then he

26:20

tweeted, one of your companies,

26:22

Elon, is under an FTC Scent decree.

26:24

Auto safety watchdog Nitsa is

26:26

investigating you for another company of yours for

26:28

killing people, and you're spending your

26:30

time picking fights online fix

26:32

your companies or congress will to

26:34

which Elon Musk replies

26:37

to senator Markady and the Washington Post

26:40

Perhaps it's because your real account sounds like parody.

26:44

That's not a smart way to respond to a

26:46

senator. No. It really isn't. That's not

26:48

a good idea. But

26:50

I understand you know what? I kinda

26:52

understand from that point of view. Elon's

26:55

basically a thirteen year old. And,

26:58

you know, there's fighting words. I'm not gonna

27:00

take I'm not gonna take it.

27:04

So

27:04

what's if we covered everything,

27:06

should we do more on the impersonation things?

27:09

because this is crazy. Well,

27:11

I think it's

27:11

it's just

27:13

the whole

27:14

it it violated the whole principle

27:16

of the of the blue check. Right.

27:18

And and and then we by

27:20

me, Twitter has this long

27:22

history of when people come up with

27:24

a really bad idea that everybody knows is

27:26

a bad idea, they exploited and

27:28

it is exposed instantaneously. Like,

27:31

I I think about the the Microsoft

27:33

AI thing that did a

27:35

while ago, and that was more of a

27:38

Microsoft problem to be fairer than a Twitter. Oh, yeah. It was

27:40

a Microsoft. I'm just but I'm just talking about

27:42

problems in general that the

27:44

community realizes are stupid. So

27:48

it always amuses me that it's like, oh, I

27:50

think we'll just do this and people

27:52

will go along. But if people don't

27:55

like and realize the

27:57

fallacy in it, they'll prove

27:59

very quickly

28:00

the fallacy like they did with

28:02

what Elon did like they did with the Microsoft TAI

28:05

situation. So one of

28:07

the fake accounts was Eli

28:09

Lilly. Yeah. And

28:10

which was a bad one? Yeah. Which

28:12

the fake account with an authorized blue check.

28:15

I think by now everybody knows the blue check's

28:17

meaningless. So this

28:19

could only I actually Leo, I don't actually

28:21

know that that's true. We don't think that was part of the

28:23

problem. I think We're we're more in the

28:25

know. Not everybody's as in the know

28:27

as we are. I I think the

28:29

challenge is that not everybody knew

28:31

that. And for one tweet that I

28:33

think probably those of us

28:35

listening to this recognized was

28:37

not

28:37

true. You know, it

28:40

it moved the market and it didn't adjust

28:42

the market. So

28:44

Right. So there was a you wanna show it Yeah.

28:46

It doesn't show it. my jumping ahead. So

28:48

there was a tweet from from

28:50

what looked like if an authentic Eli

28:53

Lilly account. Yeah. That

28:55

said insulin It's gone now, so that's why

28:57

it's not I think it's not showing.

28:59

So it basically was like, insulin

29:01

is now free. Yeah. It was not

29:03

taken down, and it

29:06

didn't it didn't sound official. There was

29:08

no, like, if that was true, you would usually see a

29:10

press release and some more. But, again, we're

29:13

talking about a

29:15

wide sort

29:16

of birth of people who may not be

29:18

as savvy, but it it

29:20

had a market impact. So it was,

29:22

what, three point four percent or I

29:25

forget the twenty billion new

29:27

market value. Well, but then it had -- billion.

29:29

-- it also had an impact

29:31

on its competitors. So that was Sanofi

29:33

-- Novo Nordisk. So again,

29:35

from my point of view, it seems

29:37

that there's liability

29:39

here because this was an unavoidable

29:42

this was a situation that that

29:44

Twitter caused. Eli Lilly.

29:46

I think the FTC is well within

29:48

its rights to investigate. Eli Lilly

29:50

on their on their actual official

29:52

account, which now has both a blue

29:54

check-in and an official check.

29:56

We apologize who those who have been

29:58

served a misleading message from a fake Lilly

30:00

account our official Twitter account is

30:02

LillyPad, which perhaps is not the

30:04

best Twitter handle for an

30:06

official account. The fake one

30:08

sounded more efficient. It was Eli Lilly

30:10

and Company. Right? That was the hit. Mhmm.

30:12

Now here's the thing. I

30:13

think the stock will come

30:15

back. Obviously, it's bogus.

30:17

So that's not the issue. The issue

30:20

is it raised awareness

30:22

that Eli Lilly is in fact GAAP

30:24

price gouging on insulin. Right. And so

30:26

the news I that that's that's not brand new

30:28

news. I mean, anything No. But it

30:30

it brought it up. Right? It

30:32

cost some attention. It was it was it

30:34

was a horrible thing that happened to a company that we would all

30:36

agree, probably needed something horrible to happen to it,

30:38

but that doesn't change the fact that this

30:40

was a massive massive drop. And

30:42

and yes, the stock is recovering, but it's still

30:45

down one point two six percent from where

30:47

it was before this happened. And the market itself be

30:49

on the market though. There's a long

30:51

tail here. Yeah. And I don't think the markets tell

30:53

you that there are investors who are gonna have their shorts

30:55

called. They're gonna have their leveraged positions

30:57

called because of this. They can all

30:59

go for remediation. I I

31:01

don't think the markets dumb. I think that they pretty quickly any

31:04

investor's investor knew that Eli Lilly was

31:06

not announcing that insulin is free

31:09

now. AND IF THEY DID,

31:11

THEY WERE QUICKLY DISABUCED OF THAT.

31:13

BUT IT GOT SOMETHING TO

31:15

THE PUBLIC FOUR OF THAT HAD THEN. you

31:17

know, sort of overshadowed by other things.

31:19

And so now there's a public conversation

31:22

yet again, which there should be, by the way.

31:24

It's embarrassed. cost of insulin. Yes.

31:26

But goes into a greater discussion and we talk

31:28

about this

31:28

a lot in security of, you

31:31

don't have to make a

31:33

permanent if

31:34

you wanna cause

31:35

damage, it doesn't need to be permanent. It can

31:37

be temporary. And temporary

31:39

is enough to cause enough damage.

31:42

Yeah. And this is exactly what happened. It's weaponized

31:45

information. We call

31:45

it we call it

31:48

mental malware

31:51

Are we lucky remember this thing?

31:53

This all happened right before the midterm

31:55

elections. Are we lucky

31:57

that in fact it didn't

31:59

disrupt the elections. I mean, it could have.

32:02

Right? Oh, yeah. There's a lot of

32:04

damage it could have done. It was twenty

32:06

four hours beforehand, so I don't think It's

32:08

not enough time for the Russian bot farms

32:10

to I yeah. I mean,

32:12

I again, I think the story about the fact

32:14

that Twitter was imploding sort of

32:17

overshadowed the, you know,

32:19

potential misinformation that might

32:21

have been sent? So

32:24

big layoffs, lots of

32:26

brain drain going on.

32:29

Elon not looking too serious. Although I

32:31

note, you know, in the first few days after he bought

32:33

Twitter, he tweeted three or four times at the norm

32:35

his normal rate. He's really dropped off a

32:37

lot. Most of his tweets have nothing to do with Twitter

32:39

all of a sudden. although

32:41

he did tweet on Friday that all of

32:43

this excitement has really increased engagement on

32:46

Twitter. He

32:48

said, well, it's really improved. The

32:51

number of of posts on Twitter,

32:53

which may be true, I don't know,

32:55

sounds a little like, you know,

32:57

he protests too much. Yeah.

33:00

They're doing so well that

33:02

he sold another four billion dollar of Tesla stock

33:05

to cover the losses. Yeah. So yeah. sounds like I

33:07

mean, the big the real problem for Twitter,

33:09

if let's say they get past the FTC

33:12

and a a pissed off

33:14

senator The real problem is that advertisers don't wanna be anywhere

33:16

near this. Right? That's the that's did you see

33:18

he threatened the advertisers? Yeah. He's

33:20

he's gonna charge them more.

33:23

for for big hours. Oh my gosh. That's

33:25

that's an episode from that. He's gonna go

33:27

sunset strip show. Yeah.

33:30

He goes

33:30

was gonna say he was gonna

33:32

go thermonuclear name and

33:34

name if they cut off their advertising.

33:37

That's a guarantee.

33:39

that advertisers gonna What are you trying

33:41

to do? Who's talks to their customers that

33:44

way? He's he is in effect

33:46

telling advertisers I am a loose

33:48

candidate and I can hurt your brand. I don't think that's what he's

33:50

doing. I I honestly don't think I

33:52

I think what

33:53

he's doing is

33:54

creating a situation

33:57

So if any of you out there have

33:59

employees, think about the process that you would use

34:01

to get rid of an employee who's underperforming.

34:03

You can't just fire them,

34:05

I guess unless you write them up, you create a page You

34:08

have to go through a process

34:10

where you either I mean, some companies

34:12

sort of make the

34:14

circumstances such that they want to

34:16

quit. Right? Or you you have a a

34:18

whole long process of write ups and

34:20

things like that, Is it

34:22

plausible that given the weight

34:24

of the investment and the total

34:26

improbability that any any

34:28

current financial model works out

34:30

to pay that back, that he's creating the

34:32

circumstance where there is no alternative but

34:34

bankruptcy so that he gets out of this whole

34:36

thing and Twitter dies permanently. That would

34:38

be my take.

34:40

my hot take. So it was

34:42

taught that he wasn't that

34:44

bankruptcy was, I think,

34:46

possible. He said. He told I think

34:48

it is is the only

34:50

option. I they're inevitable. But he said

34:52

this no, you're trying to get into a payment

34:54

platform doesn't make sense when It just makes

34:56

sense. You buy something and then you file

34:58

for banker No.

34:58

No. I don't think that's why he did it. I think he

34:59

was listen. I mean, again, let's go back in

35:02

time. I think this started out

35:04

as a

35:07

probably overconfident ruse that

35:09

turned into what felt like a real thing. I

35:11

mean, we're kind of seeing this pattern over and over

35:13

again with powerful men. Right? And

35:16

then it kinda became real and there was

35:18

no way to walk things back.

35:20

And this seems to be the only way for him

35:22

to get out of it at

35:24

this point. It's not a really good way to get out of it though because I mean It

35:26

is the only way to get out of his purse He

35:28

didn't yeah. But he didn't wanna be in it. The

35:30

problem was there was no way to get out without

35:32

a lawsuit. Yeah. He was it's

35:34

apparently, I I agree with you, Amy,

35:36

that the original decision

35:38

to buy Twitter

35:40

was either a

35:42

joke or It was a joke. I mean, I think

35:44

that there's a certain amount of highfaloutials

35:46

-- gloviating -- Yeah. Gloviating.

35:48

-- that's happening right now. Gloviating. Among our our

35:51

tech oligarchy who are running the show all over the

35:53

place, and this was kind of like He was

35:55

shown he was shown his tail feathers. A little

35:58

bit. Yeah. And then No. And

35:59

it kinda got that idea. There's no way to back get out of it

36:02

without a lawsuit. Do you think which was the

36:04

whole, like, all

36:06

of Twitter's bots proved me they're not. This is a reason for me. I've

36:08

got grounds to not go through with the sale. Do

36:10

you think he always thought, well, I can always

36:13

get out of it? Yeah. I think it

36:15

I think that, again, that I would call them the sort

36:17

of tech oligarchs think that they can get in or out

36:19

of anything. I think that's part of how we got

36:21

to know. Yeah. And

36:24

then, for some reason, really feared what

36:26

was gonna happen in the Delaware Court

36:28

of Chancery. He was about

36:30

to be deposed they had already

36:32

revealed some embarrassing direct

36:34

messages. Probably, he knew

36:36

of others at worst to come. I'm wondering,

36:39

If he had some conversations with Mudge,

36:41

Peter Zatko, the Twitter whistleblower

36:43

at some point that might

36:45

have been incriminating, So for some reason, which we don't fully

36:47

know, he decided, I guess I have to

36:50

buy it. Do you think at that

36:52

point he

36:54

starts squirming and looking for ways -- Yes. -- so he

36:56

put in of his own

36:58

money, I don't know, somewhere around

37:00

thirty billion he

37:02

borrowed Was it I thought it was like I thought he put up the money, but

37:04

I thought the real amount was closer to a

37:07

billion. Was it that much? was it

37:09

that much Oh, you know, it was

37:11

a lot. It was way It was more than that. Okay. Yeah. So he got

37:13

he borrowed thirteen, I think,

37:15

billion from banks. Those

37:18

guys cannot be very happy at this

37:20

point. They're really exposed.

37:22

They were they were really foolish

37:24

for going into this mistake. Right?

37:26

But he also got money from Larry Ellison and kicked in a couple

37:29

of bill. The Saudi sovereign fund,

37:31

we don't know how much,

37:33

but a lot. So you're right.

37:35

Elon might not have been in for more than thirteen or fourteen

37:38

billion. If he

37:40

declares bankruptcy, Would

37:42

it be chapter eleven reorganization? Is that

37:44

what you think? Does he then get to

37:47

put off the creditors? He's got of

37:49

more than billion dollar yearly annual

37:52

interest. Once again, I think this

37:54

is one of these things where if everybody if

37:56

the Saudi royal, you know, the Saudi

37:59

sovereign wealth fund still wants to go out and and have, I guess, not a

38:01

beer, but but some type of non alcoholic drink, consider

38:03

on a bar because Elon's cool, then

38:05

everything is Copacetic. just

38:07

don't think that's gonna happen. I think he is

38:10

actually stuck. I think he's

38:12

actually stuck. And the worst that the

38:14

situation gets The worse this becomes for his other holdings from the

38:16

other companies and their market

38:18

cap, I this is a cash

38:20

leading to a cycle of

38:22

apocalyptic how typically question

38:24

what I mean. Do you think that these

38:26

because I was just

38:27

thinking about the sheer number of people that

38:30

would let go Like, what

38:32

other company could function

38:34

if they just one day got rid of half of

38:36

their employees? And I'm talking

38:38

any any company over a thousand

38:40

employees. Like, How do you function if half in your employees

38:42

are gone? And samaritan. Right? Without a lot.

38:44

There weren't that many to start. They only had what

38:46

six six Seventy

38:48

five hundred. Yeah. And

38:50

so

38:50

could this been all

38:52

a plan like, well,

38:53

I'm gonna have to like, he

38:55

was thinking bankruptcy before this. That's exactly

38:57

what I'm saying. I think Elon is quiet quitting

39:00

Twitter. He's quiet quitting

39:02

Twitter. I mean, I think that's what's

39:04

happening. What happens to these

39:06

financial times? How does

39:08

he get how does he get out of this? What

39:10

happens to his finance? We're we're watching So what what do you

39:12

think you've got to do now? So what are the

39:14

assets? Listen. So again, let's

39:16

stop for a moment, like, forget about all the

39:18

insanity that's happened. If Twitter were to go

39:20

away tomorrow, Twitter is not

39:22

general purpose technology, right,

39:24

like electricity. The only way

39:26

to count what's the total valuation of Verint? There's no

39:28

way to calculate it but for in the

39:30

reverse. Right? That's a

39:32

general purpose

39:34

technology. That is not Twitter. Twitter goes away tomorrow. There's no

39:36

meaningful economic impact. There might

39:38

be on the companies that are solely set up

39:40

to serve Twitter and anybody who's using Olaf

39:44

you know, and using Twitter to sign on, there might be hiccups. Twitter

39:47

goes away tomorrow. There's no

39:49

there's no real problem. There's

39:51

no real infrastructure sure the

39:53

user base isn't all that valuable because it's relatively

39:56

small. Right? So

39:58

again, who

39:59

would buy it? how

40:01

do you

40:02

monetize it? That there's no there's

40:04

no That's a that's a good point. There's a lot of

40:06

other services that would cause major disruption.

40:09

That's a

40:09

good point. Yeah. It's not the power grid for

40:11

crying out loud. No.

40:13

But

40:14

you think of things like Salesforce or

40:16

Oracle if they went down. Like, well, that would cause

40:18

some serious disruption. He can't sell it.

40:20

Nobody's gonna buy it even for

40:22

a billion dollars at this point. Right?

40:24

He's really excited about that. Years and years ago, I

40:27

was talking to I was wasting my breath

40:30

on some news organizations

40:32

and saying, there's no way this

40:34

is gonna monetize in the long run because the

40:36

app like, there's no model that I

40:38

saw really working. So news work should

40:41

buy it, turn it into a twenty first century

40:43

wire service. Oh, wow. Allow people to

40:45

use it as we currently do, but police some

40:47

of the, you know, the the bots and

40:49

other things. And you know, control more of the advertising

40:51

destiny. Like, there nobody would con you

40:54

know, collaborate to do that. So

40:56

I I don't know. That's by

40:58

the way, the people who are not moving off of

41:00

Twitter include all the

41:02

new services. They really

41:04

although Reuters now has amasset

41:07

on feed. But I think the news services

41:09

don't have anything they anywhere they

41:11

can go, like Twitter. Oh, with the Del

41:13

Dole, which be somewhere where

41:15

people want to spout something off and release

41:17

information. No. But I'll tell you, because we work

41:19

with we work with some of them and some

41:21

others, and I know that there was

41:23

a meeting among the largest

41:26

foundations whether or not

41:28

they should all leave

41:31

Twitter or stay on. you

41:32

know? Well, you

41:33

gotta

41:33

it's like, you gotta stay

41:35

where the news is breaking. You just

41:37

have to. That's your job

41:39

as being news. Like, when people

41:42

complained about, you know, reporting on

41:44

our president, I'm like, well, he's the

41:46

president. You gotta kinda report on

41:48

that. So

41:48

it's kind of the job of news

41:50

to where the news is breaking or where

41:53

you can get that information, you have to

41:55

gather it.

41:55

So a few organizations are

41:58

unique. They didn't really

42:00

own any IP

42:00

that can't be replicated. They had a couple of patents for machine

42:02

learning. They had a couple of patents for interconnected

42:05

networks, but those those were

42:07

just utility patents. They weren't -- What they have

42:10

now? -- are

42:12

are members. That

42:12

is their -- Exactly.

42:14

-- that the user

42:16

base was the members that he drove them away. I mean, remember

42:18

so they're not all gone yet. Some have left.

42:20

There's still plenty of the important letters.

42:23

You you have to remember you everyone looks at the

42:25

one point three billion users of Twitter, and they say that's

42:27

the big number. So even if a million left, it's not

42:29

really that big of a problem. But

42:31

you look at the revenue of Twitter, ninety two percent came

42:33

from advertisers. Of that ninety two percent that came from

42:36

advertisers, fifty to four fifty to

42:38

sixty percent came from the

42:40

United States. content developed

42:42

in the United States. So in the United

42:44

States, you had about thirty eight million

42:46

active daily users. Twenty

42:48

five percent of those or about

42:50

nine million generated the

42:52

content of about ninety

42:54

seven percent of that. So nine

42:56

million users in the United

42:58

States are responsible for

43:02

roughly three quarters of Twitter's

43:04

revenue. So if he's driven away a million of those,

43:06

that is a a huge hit that is on

43:08

the latest mastodon numbers the last

43:10

week they've grown to one and a half million

43:14

users. So I presume most

43:16

of them came from Twitter. Well, they're definitely

43:17

getting plenty of buzz.

43:20

Yeah. Yeah.

43:21

yeah Mastodon is not

43:23

a Twitter replacement. Yeah. It's not. And

43:25

it shouldn't be. It's designed

43:28

to kind of avoid some of the

43:30

pitfalls Twitter offers, especially

43:34

to disadvantage people people

43:36

in the LVG two q

43:40

plus community, they left

43:42

Twitter

43:42

a long time ago.

43:44

left twitter long time ago

43:46

Frankly,

43:46

likely because

43:48

Twitter has always been kind of like last

43:50

five years been a toxic place.

43:52

So

43:54

it's really so Are

43:57

we gonna mourn the loss of Twitter? Father?

43:59

the Yeah. Okay. I

44:01

my experience of Twitter

44:03

was a lot different

44:05

than some others because very early on I wrote

44:08

a bot that got rid of the

44:10

worst signals from Twitter.

44:12

And it was very

44:12

good at it. It made Twitter a very useful

44:14

place for me. it still it still is.

44:17

And, yes, I'm on Mastodon and guess I'm trying

44:20

out a couple of other social

44:22

media services. But Twitter

44:24

was actually useful for me. It wasn't

44:26

just a place to broadcast thoughts. I

44:28

got some very interesting ideas from

44:30

the people that I in the communities that formed within Twitter. So that

44:32

is a unique forum that I do

44:34

not think is duplicatable anywhere else on

44:37

an an existing Internet

44:40

property. I agree. And I,

44:42

you know,

44:42

I've used Twitter again, like, I

44:45

since, like, twenty o six

44:48

and along the way.

44:50

So early on, that's where my friends were,

44:52

and it was, you know, fun to

44:54

have conversations in public, I guess. But I was

44:56

there for the links people were sharing pre

44:59

political political,

45:00

you know,

45:01

Meyer. And Jonathan Abrams,

45:04

who I really respect is always slightly

45:07

ahead slightly too ahead of the curve.

45:09

He founded Friendster. He also

45:11

started something called Nuzzle and

45:13

use easy e l, which was this awesome

45:16

app that you could set up. If you

45:18

had Twitter lists, once a

45:20

certain threshold of

45:22

people posted accounts posted the same link, you would get a

45:24

notification. So this is really, really great way.

45:26

I made, like, two hundred private Twitter lists

45:28

that were each about a

45:30

specific topic. was a really great

45:32

way to surface totally

45:34

original signals that I just would not have

45:36

picked up on my own. Actually, then Twitter bought

45:38

it turned it into blue and dumped it down and

45:40

made it terrible. But Right. And I I used Twitter to present.

45:42

I used to I used to have

45:45

the script running and and keenote.

45:48

And I would anytime I gave a keynote

45:50

presentation somewhere, I would sort

45:52

of have a backchannel of me

45:55

talking while I was talking on stage, and it would tweet out

45:57

the links. You know, I just I would like

45:59

try to think ahead of what somebody might stop

46:02

when I was talking to look up on their own, and

46:04

I would tweeted while I

46:06

was saying it. You know, it's the it's it's

46:08

like those other utilities that

46:10

I I

46:12

really I really miss. And I I miss yeah.

46:14

It it it's a

46:15

different place than it was, and I'm

46:17

sort of ready to let

46:20

it go.

46:22

Black

46:23

Twitter,

46:24

a perfect

46:26

example of a community that

46:29

Formed on Twitter

46:30

that gave people voices that didn't have voices

46:32

before the Arab spring.

46:34

There

46:35

the are lots

46:36

of historic things that happened

46:38

on Twitter. So, I mean, I

46:41

think it's appropriate. Are we premature

46:43

in the morning? I

46:46

I

46:46

think there's a giant dump fest going on

46:48

right now. on Twitter. That's what I'm

46:51

hearing. What do

46:51

you mean by dumb

46:54

fest?

46:54

There's a I'm watching the feed here and I'm listening

46:56

to you. I think there's a lot of people trash ing

46:58

it. A lot of people spend many years building their community

47:00

and their audience. And right now, there's

47:02

one guy who's acting very aggressively and

47:05

he owns it. I

47:08

say we should all chill out. Just

47:10

stick

47:10

around and see what happens. That

47:12

was my original plan until I was

47:14

kind of forced fed Elon's tweets.

47:17

And I thought you can always just gonna stop following. I could

47:19

I'm I could What so what happened? You

47:21

just you had not you didn't have the

47:23

chronological view on it. Yeah. I had the home feet on it.

47:25

I had, like, eight. Elon Musk tweets

47:27

in a row, all of which were worse and worse and

47:30

worse. He's, by the way, stopped

47:32

doing that.

47:34

I

47:34

think he probably got the message that probably is counterproductive. Let's see

47:36

what is I mean, these things

47:38

listen, I think

47:41

all of this thing my features, but

47:43

we we look backwards twice as much as we

47:45

look forward. And I I, you know, we sort

47:47

of go in cycles of

47:50

things. So we've got social

47:52

media that are kind of imploding.

47:54

I think we're in a period of social

47:56

distortion where we're

47:58

sort of spreading out again and going into different directions. But at some

48:00

point, years down the line, there will be

48:02

consolidation again. So the

48:04

Mastodon may

48:06

be decentralize but there will still be a consolidation

48:08

of players in the market as there is with every single industry over

48:10

and over again. So It's interesting

48:12

by the way. said

48:13

in the pre show. said

48:15

in the pre show that I'm gonna be slim pickings right in the spam

48:17

into the ground. I mean, III like

48:20

David said, I spent years

48:22

building up a community that I find very valuable on Twitter. And so I'm stay

48:24

there if for nothing else, but for them.

48:26

Was that a strange point of time? I am

48:28

moving to Bastogne. I'm

48:30

sorry? Was that a strange love

48:32

reference? Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

48:34

Gotta throw one of them. Remember Slim Pickens

48:36

riding the top of No. It's

48:38

my favorite movie. I just I just I love tearing

48:41

that part. So much that I can drive

48:43

to do. I apologize. Just I mean,

48:45

there is there is an

48:47

an interesting tangent to this. Did you

48:49

you heard about the the senior director

48:52

of engineering got caught

48:54

sending out a Slack that is just

48:56

tone deaf? Now due to

48:56

Now so it

48:57

a Luke a semen.

48:59

Luke Evans semen. He is the

49:01

senior director of engineering at

49:04

Twitter. sent out a Slack saying, I'm gonna I'm gonna quote this. This

49:06

is going to be the challenge. The engineers I

49:08

am bringing back, the ones he've fired

49:11

and then rehired, are weak, lazy, unmotivated, and they

49:13

may even be against an Elon Twitter, they were

49:16

cut for a reason. So we need to think of

49:18

these people as just needing to be around until

49:20

the knowledge transition

49:22

is completed. Imagine sending that out on a company Slack

49:24

to the people who are gonna read it

49:26

and say, yeah, I'm I'm gonna

49:29

as slow as possible. I'm I'm not motivated for you.

49:31

So wait a second. Let's let's pause for a moment

49:33

on that. So that really went out. Yes? That really

49:35

went out. That really went out. He's when you

49:37

bring those to my boys' bed and you called them

49:40

lazy. Yep. Was that

49:41

posturing those just because half of those

49:43

points are going to design

49:45

backdoors into their software so they could hack

49:48

it later when they're dumped

49:50

again. Well, look, if they got us to pull

49:52

up a Pandora's box

49:54

of problems. if I was brought back, I am writing ten lines of code

49:56

where one will do. I mean, come on, I will

49:58

go as slow as

49:58

possible. I will milk it

49:59

for every bit

50:02

of salary and concessions that I couldn't

50:04

get. More of, like, I'm gonna build a back door so

50:06

I can get into this thing -- Yeah. --

50:09

when I want

50:10

to. Yeah. So

50:11

it's they

50:13

some

50:14

of them III

50:16

understand have to come back because they

50:20

weren't they were in order to avoid the Warren Act, Elon, who

50:22

originally wanted just to fire him without severance, no

50:24

notice, realized he had to

50:27

give him ninety days of

50:30

continued salary. Those people are still

50:32

getting paid. And so

50:34

it's easy to call them back because they'd never

50:38

really left. And if they don't come back, they can say, well, then you're

50:40

not getting your ninety days. Now you've

50:42

quit. So

50:45

You might wonder, well, why would anybody come back after being

50:47

fired? Well, that's why.

50:50

They may But this goes to my

50:52

point, who could dump half of their staff

50:54

and still be operational. Yeah. And then And he goes, like, a second. I can't still

50:57

be I'd dump them five days after you walk

50:59

in the door. How did you even know? And

51:01

certainly, as you point out, count

51:03

the number of pages of code committed is a

51:06

terrible way to do

51:08

it. Can I ask you as a question?

51:10

Yeah. Have have any

51:12

of you had conversations

51:14

about Elon with others

51:17

and gotten into had

51:19

bad react. Let me put it this way. I

51:21

feel like Elon's almost religion on his on

51:23

his own. And there's no room. I mean, two things get

51:25

people more upset than than

51:28

anything else, and that is their,

51:30

like, crypto

51:32

and Elon. You know, Elon? Right. These are our two big stories.

51:34

Yeah. I know. But,

51:35

like, the the reaction that

51:37

people have to any

51:40

any critical any critical, like

51:42

logical criticism of what's happening

51:44

right now is

51:46

grounds for you know,

51:48

verbal assault. But I don't know. But I don't

51:50

know what they want to do. diagram

51:52

and Sorry,

51:54

Padri? I was

51:55

just there's You have the Elon Stans.

51:57

You have the Crypto Stans, and then you

51:59

have the Joe Rogan Stans. And

52:01

when they meet, that's the middle part. Right in the

52:04

middle? That's an instant block. That's just no

52:06

sorry. III don't know your bot. Anything

52:08

that Your bot works.

52:10

It's a Venn diagram. I I need to take a break. We'll have more.

52:14

It's an amazing time we're living in,

52:16

and then there's FTX. We're gonna talk

52:20

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com slash

56:01

tweet. David Spark

56:03

is here from Well,

56:06

I've known him for years, but his current

56:08

effort is CISOs series at

56:10

CISOs dot com, you

56:12

interview CISOs. Right? And

56:14

other security and other. Let's talk about

56:16

security. And I might as well give

56:18

out your Twitter handle

56:20

at dspark because you're not

56:22

leaving, man. And and I'm holding so serious. III don't

56:24

I I'm not one to do

56:26

knee jerk react. I think that's smart.

56:30

Let's see how this thing plays itself out. I am also though not

56:32

one to kind of hang around a toxic environment.

56:34

I just don't need that in my

56:37

Oh, well, you don't have to necessarily shut down

56:39

your account. It's just Oh, no. I didn't

56:41

kill my account. I got a half a million

56:43

followers. I didn't kill it. but I ain't visited it.

56:45

I couldn't I it's been years since I've been able to read that

56:47

replies anyway. I mean, it it's I've only

56:49

been, you

56:50

it it's i've only been a know,

56:52

minor

56:52

user of Twitter for the last three or four years. But nobody here's

56:55

Lavin, which is interesting, Amy Webb,

56:57

CEO of Future

57:00

Today Institute.

57:01

Did you predict this would that it's really not

57:04

Twitter. It's social media. Look at

57:06

look at

57:08

Facebook's valuation.

57:10

Yeah. Again, this I there are cycles that that every industry

57:13

goes through and from

57:17

my point of view, we're we were at the

57:19

sort of zenith of the cycle and so

57:22

it it makes sense what's happening

57:24

right now.

57:25

the maybe uncomfortable.

57:27

But

57:27

Yeah. Look, Amy, can I ask you a quick

57:29

question about about cycles right there? Yeah.

57:31

When things don't have much

57:33

of a history, or things

57:35

are changing so rapidly.

57:38

What do you use to predict? And I know

57:40

I'm being super safe, but the but the reason I bring

57:42

this up is because Like, one topic that comes up with us

57:44

is cyber insurance. And I'm like -- Yeah. --

57:47

Jesus. Like, that changes so drastically.

57:49

It's not like the industry has

57:51

decades of information like, like,

57:53

in of actuarial tables like auto insurance.

57:55

Oh, no. We actually do a ton of work in

57:57

insurance, and those actuarial tables have pretty

57:59

much

57:59

not been updated in the past century. So now

58:02

there there's trying to sort things

58:04

out. That's pretty nice. So so what do you do when the the history is either

58:06

so drastically changing, you

58:08

can't see a pattern or

58:12

What is it that you do? We can

58:13

always see patterns. The issue is making sure

58:15

we're seeing evidence in data backed patterns

58:17

and not ones that we're seeing because of our

58:19

own bias. But we

58:22

we we actually don't make predictions. So I I didn't we

58:24

would not say that we would predict something

58:26

would happen on such and such a date or

58:28

by such and such time. Right. Right.

58:30

Right. You're showing trends more. Yes? Yeah. So we

58:33

we build models, evidence based models, sometimes

58:35

primary second. Yep.

58:38

I don't wanna get into the weeds because it would bore that out of everybody

58:40

who's listening. But but,

58:43

yeah, even when

58:46

there are So, what? Social media is fifteen ish,

58:48

maybe a little bit longer, eighteen years old, we

58:50

could say.

58:52

It's every

58:54

industry or micro industry moves at

58:56

a different speed and trajectory.

58:58

And we're just one of

59:00

the biggest signals we look for is acceleration.

59:02

So consolidation over time tends to attract regulatory scrutiny and, you

59:04

know, it's all the other stuff that comes with

59:07

it. And either that micro industry

59:09

survives because there's no

59:12

there's nothing else or there's an implosion and something

59:14

else happens. So the good analogy here

59:16

would be drug stores in the United

59:20

States. CVS may have incredible technology, but

59:22

it is it doesn't it

59:24

does not care about customers

59:26

at pharmacies. And so The

59:30

tech might be

59:30

great, but the user experience is horrible, but

59:33

there's nowhere else to go, which is what

59:35

left the opening for Amazon. because

59:37

it's there's so much marketing consolidation. It would be

59:39

so challenging to set up a competitor

59:42

that, you know, so we've got, like, two or three in

59:44

the market. that one

59:46

continues to hold. Social media

59:48

didn't. So yeah.

59:50

Also with his father Robert

59:52

Balanciar, the digital jesuit, who

59:54

is also not leaving Twitter, but does

59:57

have four Mastodon count on

59:59

four Mastodon

59:59

accounts. Just a

1:00:00

case. I think it's more than that. There's

1:00:02

a bunch that I just have forgotten about. It

1:00:06

was I mean, it was a

1:00:07

very interesting platform from the very beginning. It was

1:00:09

very friendly to writing bots,

1:00:11

and I just experimenting. And it would it was that thing where

1:00:13

I would create an account and forget about it and create

1:00:16

another account. I did that for three or four

1:00:18

years. So Yeah. You're gonna

1:00:20

find a lot. You're on Twitch social now. That's all it

1:00:22

matters. Exactly. It's exactly.

1:00:24

It's Twitch social is it's

1:00:26

actually perfect. And I

1:00:29

I've hit the the inflection point. So, you know, I may have, what, forty

1:00:31

five thousand users on Twitter and

1:00:34

only two thousand

1:00:36

on Mastodon.

1:00:37

But the engagement

1:00:38

I'm starting to get from Mastodon

1:00:40

is getting very close to

1:00:42

the engagement for the for the

1:00:44

same topics. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

1:00:47

So That's that's good. That's good. I

1:00:49

to me, the lesson and

1:00:52

I also take this

1:00:54

lesson from the collapse of FTX is

1:00:56

that centralization,

1:00:58

Amy, you'd probably be good

1:01:00

to talk about this. It's not always

1:01:03

a good idea Certainly, it's it's the

1:01:05

kind of the way capitalism

1:01:08

works because the the that's

1:01:10

how you capture values by centralizing

1:01:14

it. siloing it and selling

1:01:16

it.

1:01:16

But for end

1:01:17

users, I don't know if centralization

1:01:20

is is the right thing. Of course, that is

1:01:22

the complaint. People who

1:01:24

don't wanna leave Twitter have as well,

1:01:26

but I'd like all the people I

1:01:28

can follow and

1:01:28

and talk to on Twitter. Yeah.

1:01:31

I mean, listen.

1:01:34

Total decentralization, I

1:01:36

I'm I don't know of any

1:01:38

examples throughout history in any sector where total decentralization

1:01:42

worked and worked in the

1:01:44

long

1:01:44

term. But

1:01:46

maybe

1:01:46

it's a pendulum that we swung too far in the

1:01:49

direction of economies of scale

1:01:51

and centralization and and

1:01:53

manage Yeah. Maybe if we if we're bridging

1:01:56

to sort of the

1:01:58

exchanges, the crypto exchanges, you

1:02:00

know, I Listen, I

1:02:02

I don't think our central banks

1:02:04

I'm not sure what the Fed is

1:02:06

I don't know that I agree with what

1:02:08

the Fed has been doing. But

1:02:12

I also don't know that

1:02:14

completely unfettered exchanges

1:02:16

where you have a handful of people making

1:02:19

that the the liquidity I don't I don't wanna get, like, super in

1:02:21

the weeds on this, but we we should not be in the

1:02:23

place that we are right now. And this is

1:02:26

no longer an experiment that's

1:02:28

happening during COVID. There's real money -- Yeah. -- being

1:02:30

lost. That's good. Like,

1:02:32

significant real money for people. And, again, if

1:02:34

we play

1:02:36

this forward, you put somebody in dire economic circumstances

1:02:38

without in our current

1:02:40

economy with the current inflate like, with

1:02:42

all of the other variables

1:02:45

they're not playing to our favor. This this is

1:02:48

where you have a vulnerable population that

1:02:50

decides to,

1:02:52

you know,

1:02:52

we've

1:02:53

seen how

1:02:56

this has happened throughout history, and

1:02:58

it has typically not gone well.

1:03:01

So

1:03:02

that's what I'll say.

1:03:04

It's interesting.

1:03:04

I, you know, I maybe

1:03:07

because I'm not a a

1:03:10

good capitalist. I'm

1:03:10

not good at marketing. I'm not good at you know, if if I

1:03:13

like the idea. For instance, on our

1:03:15

mastodon, I don't really wanna

1:03:18

promote it. I just

1:03:19

kinda like it better if it's it

1:03:22

grows natively and and it

1:03:24

doesn't need to be big. I don't wanna

1:03:26

get big. Getting big

1:03:28

sometimes is not a is I

1:03:30

understand from a capitalist point of view, from an

1:03:32

industrial point of view, getting big is a secret

1:03:34

to economies

1:03:36

of scale. It's where you really get the big money. I kinda getting

1:03:40

big. Mastodon's more

1:03:42

like having cottage

1:03:43

garden. Well, I'll tell you

1:03:45

as efficient as having a

1:03:47

giant, you know, fifteen

1:03:50

million acre

1:03:52

beet farm. but

1:03:53

it's kind of more personal and more

1:03:56

satisfying. It's all

1:03:57

about niche and getting to

1:03:59

your very specific audience, which is

1:04:01

very much evidenced here. I

1:04:04

mean, we we don't have

1:04:06

enormous audiences, but I

1:04:08

want to make it very desirable

1:04:10

for our specific audios. I just

1:04:13

like that shit. I I prefer to talk

1:04:15

to people who get it than people

1:04:17

who don't. Maybe just

1:04:19

me. I don't know. Right. And

1:04:21

so again, like, that that is a better situation for

1:04:23

a potential advertiser advertiser. The

1:04:25

challenge with advertisers on platforms

1:04:27

right now is

1:04:30

you kinda don't know where your ads are going,

1:04:32

and you don't have clear metrics on

1:04:34

anything. Like, if if

1:04:36

I had an opportunity to talk to two

1:04:38

thousand people about something that was aligned

1:04:40

with whatever it is that I'm working on, and and

1:04:42

I was gonna do it in a way that they

1:04:46

appreciated. That's the best possible advertising there is.

1:04:47

Doesn't even have to be that large, Amy. I

1:04:49

mean, this this is one of the things we we talk

1:04:51

about when people, like, started doing podcasts

1:04:54

and they're they get very

1:04:56

depressed because they see down low numbers

1:04:58

over a hundred or two hundred people. But if you

1:05:00

just take a moment

1:05:01

and say, what if I had a hundred or two

1:05:03

hundred people just in a room listening

1:05:06

to me. Right? That's

1:05:08

plenty. Yeah. That's really powerful. And

1:05:10

if you just think about that Yeah. And

1:05:12

if it's the right hundred or two hundred people, that's

1:05:15

all you need. I mean, honestly, that is Twitter.

1:05:17

Twitter's user base is pretty small

1:05:19

relative to the global

1:05:22

population. Just happen to be concentration

1:05:24

of media people and That's a good point.

1:05:26

It's it's not Facebook, is

1:05:28

it? Mhmm. But

1:05:30

Twitter's user base had a advantage over

1:05:32

some of the other social media platforms. And that is

1:05:35

the user base tended to

1:05:37

be a bit more educated. and

1:05:39

it

1:05:39

tended to be a little wealthier. I think

1:05:42

the the last stat I saw

1:05:44

was eighty seven percent make more than thirty

1:05:46

thousand a year forty

1:05:48

some percent make more than seventy five

1:05:50

thousand a year and something like fifteen percent

1:05:52

more make more than a hundred thousand a

1:05:54

year. So if you're an advertiser, and

1:05:57

you're looking for your niche,

1:05:59

that platform that has

1:06:02

fewer users but has more of the

1:06:04

users that you want is

1:06:05

a better buy. Do you

1:06:07

think that's

1:06:08

the move behind all of these sort of spaces,

1:06:11

style, like small

1:06:13

audio chat rooms? that

1:06:15

we're starting Oh, yeah. I

1:06:15

mean, that's that's it's paid it's

1:06:18

paid off. was the the one thousand

1:06:20

loyal listeners. That's all you really need.

1:06:23

You get that. and anything else is gravy. If you get

1:06:25

to one thousand people who really wanna hear what

1:06:27

you have to say, we're willing to give you

1:06:29

that dollar a week or dollar an episode. I will

1:06:31

I will say this if

1:06:33

if we were, we make

1:06:35

we do better

1:06:37

being

1:06:38

more niche to a

1:06:39

smaller audience than if

1:06:41

I was broader to a larger

1:06:43

audience, for sure.

1:06:45

Of course. Do you want

1:06:46

an advertiser who needs to sell a million items to

1:06:48

make a million dollars or an advertiser who

1:06:50

makes a million dollars off one item. Well,

1:06:53

then this what this CSCS

1:06:55

have access to big budgets. That's why it's small.

1:06:57

Exactly. That is really what the Internet's

1:06:59

all about is diversity small

1:07:02

groups. Maybe it was a mistake to say,

1:07:04

to make social get

1:07:06

so big.

1:07:08

you know, maybe that was a mistake or

1:07:12

no. I

1:07:12

I think it was it was driven

1:07:14

by the desire to reach a mass audience

1:07:17

so you sell it to advertisers as opposed to what people --

1:07:19

I understand. -- they wanted. The

1:07:22

general sort of this goes back to Jack Welch, and

1:07:24

if anybody's super interested in

1:07:26

sort of

1:07:28

business and how we got here. It's a critique

1:07:30

of Welsh, but it's the man who broke

1:07:32

capitalism as He was what it's called. It's

1:07:34

a brand new Yeah. He was -- Yeah. -- lion eyes at the time

1:07:37

and now David Gales. Yeah. Yeah. And

1:07:39

still very much is in especially,

1:07:41

like, in Latin and South America,

1:07:44

but But scale is everything. It has, like,

1:07:46

our modern modern business in

1:07:48

the US, especially, has been built

1:07:51

on scale and financialization, meaning

1:07:54

you wanna get to the biggest possible

1:07:56

numbers that you can and then the rest

1:07:58

of the you you wanna achieve non organic growth is

1:07:59

kinda how how we got you now. And I don't

1:08:02

think that's the best way to do things. It just

1:08:04

became the way that

1:08:06

we do do things.

1:08:08

Leo, I will tell you something that Jim

1:08:10

louder back. Some we both know

1:08:12

told me when he was

1:08:13

running revision three, I

1:08:15

asked him what percentage of your producer's

1:08:17

time is spent engaging

1:08:20

directly with the

1:08:22

audience And he said fifty percent. Yeah. And that

1:08:24

was critical to building his audience. Yeah.

1:08:26

And I would say we spend kinda

1:08:29

close to that too. Yeah. It's you've gotta

1:08:31

spend a lot of time engaging with your audience

1:08:34

directly. Jack Wolf. Bill

1:08:36

Scale

1:08:36

gives you

1:08:38

one very important thing. The

1:08:40

larger social media platform is,

1:08:42

the easier it is to drive

1:08:47

interactions with outrage. Right. At

1:08:49

at scale, the rage machine is amazing. You can get

1:08:51

so many engagements. You can

1:08:54

get so much spread by

1:08:58

bringing up something that makes people upset. And then you can that's been out at your age. Oh, this is This is of

1:09:00

my whole theory. The Internet is

1:09:02

a speed from bad to worse.

1:09:07

It's like, yeah, how can I how can I say the

1:09:09

worst thing possible, the quickest,

1:09:12

faster

1:09:12

than anybody else?

1:09:15

We've seen this with with how people

1:09:17

sort of do this pile on of, like, you know, I hate this person.

1:09:19

I wanna hurt this person. I wanna kill this person. I'm,

1:09:21

like, you go, boom

1:09:23

boom. That fast. But

1:09:25

this again, so, like but we

1:09:27

didn't nobody invented this recently. This goes back to No. allowing for speed. It's

1:09:29

just faster. This was

1:09:32

a practice like five

1:09:34

hundred years ago, you go to see a

1:09:36

Shakespeare show live, and that happens in the audience, you

1:09:38

know. But hold it.

1:09:38

But the anonymity of Twitter is

1:09:42

allows

1:09:42

for that as well. The the greater

1:09:44

number of connections, if I go into a Mastodon

1:09:46

instance and I just start spewing outrage,

1:09:49

I am gonna get blocked so quickly

1:09:51

because people are gonna say, I don't wanna hear this. This is nothing to

1:09:53

do with what we're discussing. I do that

1:09:55

on Twitter. I'm still gonna

1:09:57

get people blocking me, but I will find a big

1:09:59

enough critical

1:09:59

mass of people who share the same

1:10:02

rage and will amplify it. So

1:10:03

-- Yes.

1:10:04

-- that that happens on large instances

1:10:06

that don't doesn't happen on small ones.

1:10:08

You know

1:10:09

what, Bill Mar had a great

1:10:11

line because I could say to everybody on Twitter, you know, have a great

1:10:13

day and people would still be

1:10:15

pissed off about that. Of

1:10:18

course, it's our trademark. Yeah.

1:10:21

Nobody Right. Right.

1:10:23

So

1:10:23

but are we learning

1:10:25

a lesson that maybe

1:10:27

too big as you can get big that it's I mean,

1:10:29

certainly Jack Welch made Did did

1:10:31

he make GE

1:10:34

too big? Is that what they're saying? It was it was fast inorganic

1:10:36

growth and a lot of so

1:10:39

so organic growth would be

1:10:42

developing new products and services and growing that market growth

1:10:44

tends to happen through M and A. So

1:10:46

you're buying up competitors or other companies and

1:10:48

you're trying to to sort of

1:10:50

spin up your P and L

1:10:53

to to appease the

1:10:55

market. And, you know, that's a that's a risky, dangerous game,

1:11:00

but typically that

1:11:02

happens when you're also cutting

1:11:04

way back on staff, on

1:11:06

services, on people, there's a terrific

1:11:09

It was a terrific chapter of that

1:11:11

book on GE on on Boeing. Boeing got of gutted and

1:11:13

the history of of

1:11:16

really, like, great

1:11:18

R and D and Boeing,

1:11:20

you know, was was sort

1:11:22

of blown apart. So I think

1:11:25

we have this tradition in the US

1:11:27

of scale up scale up do less, you know, get rid of as many people as you

1:11:30

can divest in in

1:11:32

your talent

1:11:34

pipeline. You know, we there's

1:11:37

a lot of that happening, and that's also

1:11:39

the sort of playbook for a

1:11:42

lot of a lot of companies that

1:11:44

get consulting from a particularly large consulting company

1:11:46

based in the United States. I won't

1:11:48

say who it is, but that's kind of

1:11:51

their playbook and all of this is about driving up share prices as

1:11:53

much as humanly possible. But and and that's

1:11:55

a great short term game,

1:11:58

a gain, and it's it's good for the market in the very near but that is

1:12:01

it produces just disastrous results down the

1:12:03

road. Now I don't know

1:12:06

if Elon himself has

1:12:08

been a recipient of any of this advice

1:12:10

or if any of the the the tech companies have been recently, but they

1:12:12

seem to be following at least in

1:12:15

parts of those models. Yeah. What

1:12:18

about to Meta, what

1:12:20

about Facebook? Fifty four

1:12:22

percent of the eleven thousand

1:12:25

laid off were in business

1:12:27

positions. but the other forty

1:12:30

six percent were technology

1:12:32

rules. That's a lot

1:12:34

of technologists to

1:12:36

lay off. If you let

1:12:39

me ask you, they've decided to kill they've decided to kill their smart display

1:12:44

division. They decided they

1:12:46

had smartwatches in development, they decided to kill that. I'm not saying Facebook

1:12:49

or Meta is a

1:12:50

very well run company,

1:12:54

a lot of what's going on right now is Mark pivoting

1:12:56

to a

1:12:57

a very speculative

1:12:59

investment into

1:13:01

a a virtual reality. So I used

1:13:03

to think

1:13:03

he was a real smart

1:13:06

guy. What happened?

1:13:07

Well, if he didn't all

1:13:09

of a sudden become stupid,

1:13:11

But

1:13:11

but what I have a question. I

1:13:13

was wrong. I have a question and and I

1:13:15

don't know if you've been

1:13:18

tracking this specifically,

1:13:20

but He

1:13:20

seems to be betting

1:13:23

Zuckerberg, betting a lot on virtual reality. What

1:13:26

what is

1:13:28

your understanding

1:13:28

of how big that

1:13:30

market's getting and growing? So

1:13:33

we if do a lot. People who listen to

1:13:36

show kind of know the line of

1:13:38

work that I'm in and and who

1:13:43

we work with. you know, the issue is

1:13:45

that we're, I think, ten years out. Probably, we don't have

1:13:48

enough compute. We don't

1:13:50

have enough this is

1:13:52

we're a little far away from this

1:13:54

really being able to to work and have business cases. I I

1:13:56

wonder if The Lance, do

1:13:58

you know what the

1:13:59

demand is specifically

1:14:02

for it. Oh, the demand?

1:14:04

Yeah. Zero. I don't see anybody. There's

1:14:06

none of the I mean, that

1:14:08

I know of. There aren't

1:14:10

any with the exception of maybe DoD, but, like,

1:14:13

there's no real investment. There's a

1:14:15

lot like marketing departments are

1:14:17

very excited about. met universal

1:14:20

technologies and and XR.

1:14:22

There are a lot

1:14:23

of

1:14:24

anthropomorphic chat type of things

1:14:27

that are being built. You know, to

1:14:29

me, this feels a lot like the

1:14:31

days of four square when everybody threw

1:14:33

money at budges because they thought gamification

1:14:35

was the next big thing, and they

1:14:37

followed the wrong trend. They followed the

1:14:40

shiny, not the infrastructure. Always

1:14:42

follow

1:14:42

the infrastructure. That's what matters most. So

1:14:44

do

1:14:44

you think that what what

1:14:46

Zuckerberg is doing right now

1:14:48

in terms of and I don't know if

1:14:50

he is betting the firm, but it just seems

1:14:53

that's all the press that comes out

1:14:55

is that everything is more and more virtual reality driving everyone to,

1:14:57

you know -- Yeah. -- the whole world have an oculus on

1:15:00

their head. is

1:15:03

Well, I was not in the in the room

1:15:04

where it happened. Right? So I don't know

1:15:06

the conversations that are happening. But as an outsider,

1:15:10

I see two plausible reasons, there's probably others. But, you

1:15:12

know, one is, I think at some

1:15:14

point, if if you have consolidated enough

1:15:16

wealth and power, I think

1:15:18

you start to think, hey, I'm gonna

1:15:20

I'm I'm gonna be the guy that does blah, like

1:15:22

x. Right? Right. And through sheer force of my will, it shall be.

1:15:25

So I don't know

1:15:27

if it's that or if it's Facebook

1:15:29

was facing some significant and I think warranted regulatory challenges and

1:15:31

maybe this was

1:15:35

a pivot away from that? I'm sure there's other plausible reasons, but those

1:15:37

would be the two from my vantage

1:15:39

point. Howard Bauchner: I

1:15:41

mean, I I own an oculus

1:15:43

and I kinda like it and actually you I love it for exercising,

1:15:45

but I I don't find

1:15:47

the compelling need

1:15:48

find compelling

1:15:50

need for it. And when

1:15:52

I if I

1:15:53

have a VR headset on my head

1:15:55

for more than three minutes,

1:15:57

I will get

1:16:00

violently ill. And it doesn't matter how have

1:16:02

you put oculus on your head? Yes. And you And the and the prototype versions with these

1:16:05

super high

1:16:08

refresh doesn't matter. It's just I'm one of these people who

1:16:10

I I never be. I get an attitude. Like, you know, I can't even I

1:16:12

can't even watch somebody play

1:16:14

a first person shooter game. that

1:16:17

makes me sick. But I don't get sick from

1:16:19

the ocular. Actually, I'm quite impressed with how those are, I

1:16:21

guess, balanced,

1:16:23

if you will.

1:16:24

I mean,

1:16:25

the last oculus connect that I went to, I had a a brand

1:16:27

new headset with a really high refresh game, and they promised

1:16:29

me they said, oh, no, you'd be

1:16:31

fine wearing this.

1:16:34

thirty seconds in, I I had to pull it off my I

1:16:37

was sweaty. I was I was dizzy. I had to go

1:16:39

sit down for about an hour.

1:16:42

So there's something about my brain. It just will not let it go with

1:16:44

VR. It just knows it's not right.

1:16:46

Potter and you wear glasses

1:16:47

or contacts? Do you wear

1:16:50

corrective nothing? I'm I'm twenty

1:16:52

twenty. Okay. I'm well, man. I

1:16:54

mean, look, even if it's only, let's say, five or ten percent of the population,

1:16:56

if you have a technology that

1:16:58

five or ten percent of the

1:17:01

collection gets nauseated by. You're not gonna --

1:17:04

Yeah. -- it's not gonna be a mass product. It's just

1:17:06

not. I got the new sixteen or fifteen hundred dollar quest

1:17:08

pro

1:17:11

And have

1:17:13

any of you played

1:17:16

with the HoloLens

1:17:19

two? No. So I

1:17:19

I everything

1:17:20

that I've tried, and I'm I

1:17:22

was in early and still firm believer

1:17:25

in magic leap. I think that technology

1:17:27

was extraordinary. I just much money and they they

1:17:29

just, you know, investors demanded

1:17:32

return ROI, which I thought

1:17:34

was, you know, that needed years

1:17:37

to develop, but HoloLens two is a pretty amazing piece of equipment and I can wear it with glasses

1:17:40

on.

1:17:44

Yeah.

1:17:44

yeah I I

1:17:45

There's so much required to AR than VR. Yeah. I think that's That's

1:17:47

more XR. Right? And I I really

1:17:48

do think the next thing

1:17:51

that's I don't I

1:17:54

don't see a world in which

1:17:56

VR becomes a a mass market technology

1:17:58

outside of entertainment. I just

1:17:59

they're a r, like,

1:18:02

in like, a heads up display for life. Right? For your everyday life, wearing a pair of glasses that look

1:18:04

very similar to the mics sort

1:18:06

of boring looking glasses that I've got

1:18:10

on right now. I think that's our our

1:18:12

future No. No. Here's here's the

1:18:14

the killer app for that, and we've

1:18:16

talked about this a long time ago,

1:18:18

is dating.

1:18:18

Imagine you go

1:18:19

into a bar. Wow. And you can scan

1:18:21

the room and that e people can be

1:18:24

identified and you can

1:18:26

go into their social profiles. and

1:18:28

see things about them -- Yeah.

1:18:30

-- and essentially know a lot about them before you actually approach them.

1:18:34

That sounds like it's soccer's what dream. I I don't

1:18:36

know. I know a lot of people who would

1:18:38

just see Oh, it's not nobody. It's

1:18:41

just think that you will

1:18:43

have an opening line. No.

1:18:44

That's terrible. Do you think Yeah. But let me take

1:18:46

that a step further because here's how then

1:18:49

I would I would sort of

1:18:51

set myself up to be picksillated,

1:18:54

and and so you I

1:18:56

just literally unblocked from your view. Not your

1:18:58

personal view, David. No. But how do you

1:19:00

pixelate? It's

1:19:02

like, I know how do you eat through vegetables? Totally. There's

1:19:04

a couple of guys who have knitted

1:19:06

a sweater that I wanna buy that

1:19:09

that completely blocked your face for most recognition

1:19:10

algorithms. I think they're at you with Georgia Tech, I think. Would no. Would that hold it. But would that

1:19:14

mess up all, like,

1:19:17

you

1:19:17

know, street cameras as well? Totally. Yes. I'm literally gonna ask. I'm gonna No. You should

1:19:19

have to wear things out. womenals could get

1:19:22

away with a lot.

1:19:25

Probably. So that's just that's just near near i r. Right? Just a lot of

1:19:27

LEDs? Oh, it's oh, it's got lights. Yeah. Oh, no. No. No. It

1:19:29

doesn't have lights. This is a

1:19:32

it's a There's

1:19:34

something about the pattern. I

1:19:36

I'm sort of I don't remember. There was

1:19:38

in I

1:19:39

think it was world was World War

1:19:41

one Were they well, it's the name of

1:19:43

the with the way they painted the ships black and white, these

1:19:45

bizarre patterns Oh, to my Like the radar? Yeah. Yeah. True. Well, not just the

1:19:47

radar. Just the scopes

1:19:48

to

1:19:51

be able to know how close or far away the ships are, oh, somebody

1:19:53

in the chat room is gonna tell me what this Yeah.

1:19:55

Yeah. I can't remember the name. We've talked

1:19:57

about it before. It's very cool. It

1:19:59

looks like Zebra's It's we

1:20:02

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all broken up.

1:20:04

Here's the sweater. render yourself invisible to AI

1:20:06

with this ever serial sweater of doom.

1:20:09

Yeah. Actually, I think I heard

1:20:11

about it from

1:20:12

you guys. I

1:20:13

yeah. because I mean,

1:20:16

I don't you know, I don't know. I'd

1:20:18

like to I'd like to believe it. Wear that sweater for now. I will tell you, I literally own only black

1:20:20

clothing. I don't own any color

1:20:22

that I'm aware of. And that

1:20:26

I would wear. I would wear me. I'm I'm with

1:20:28

you on that black clothing

1:20:30

forever. Well done. Very nice.

1:20:33

a piece of white there. You're kinda

1:20:35

stuck with this, dude. And part of a Johnny

1:20:37

Cash refinery. So did Mark is Mark making

1:20:40

a mistake pouring

1:20:42

tens of billions of dollars a

1:20:45

year into whatever

1:20:46

it is VR mixed

1:20:50

reality AR. Is that a mistake?

1:20:51

Market would say yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:20:53

Market seems to have their

1:20:56

value. Yeah.

1:20:56

I

1:20:59

mean,

1:20:59

I know it's difficult. I know that he's developing a new field

1:21:01

and he's trying to drive interest where

1:21:03

it doesn't exist, but

1:21:05

the second left comparison is still dead on.

1:21:07

You look at this and say, it's a little bit but everything still looks like a

1:21:09

cartoon. And I don't I don't

1:21:12

see myself working

1:21:15

a day wearing VR

1:21:16

goggles so that I can be on a

1:21:18

space station when I'm working. What what value does

1:21:20

that give me? Yeah. So I

1:21:22

will I will throw this out.

1:21:25

Somebody had posted that they actually

1:21:27

did coding with VR goggles on. No. And they showed their

1:21:29

screen on it. Oh my god.

1:21:31

It was endless. Awful.

1:21:35

offer?

1:21:35

No. But then I like you.

1:21:37

Yes. So I don't think about VRE

1:21:39

max yet. Here is

1:21:42

on Etsy. The anti

1:21:43

facial recognition hoodie, sixty

1:21:45

four dollars for tech data

1:21:47

privacy protesters, comes

1:21:50

in purple yellow or purple.

1:21:52

What about that? You'd wear that? Yeah? I don't know if

1:21:54

it doesn't work. Well, I guess there's little faces so it'd be confusing. That

1:21:58

makes sense to me. I'm so

1:22:00

laser at that. They know what we're demonstrating these ones. It's not

1:22:02

this is this isn't the sweater of doom. This is the sweatpants of doom.

1:22:05

I'm all about

1:22:08

those pants. that's I'm wearing that the

1:22:10

next time I go, because it's the holy father. It's facial recognition. What

1:22:14

color are you? son, why are you wearing those

1:22:16

pants? Actually, that's not that different

1:22:18

from what the Swissgarde wear. Right?

1:22:21

Yes. That's And you think

1:22:23

you are in the Swiss Oh,

1:22:25

look, you can also get a

1:22:27

Netgator. Netgator. That looks more like more like Minecraft. Here's a

1:22:29

verified review from Victoria.

1:22:32

Good quality. My

1:22:34

robot sex doll did not recognize me.

1:22:37

Let's take

1:22:37

a little time out

1:22:39

after that. I've

1:22:42

gotta adjust. I've

1:22:43

gotta absorb. I wish our

1:22:45

sponsor were the sweater of doom. By the way, there

1:22:47

is an entire academic paper

1:22:49

making an invisibility cloak

1:22:52

real world Aversarial

1:22:54

text and object detectors PDF that you can read, and I will hope somebody will

1:22:56

read this and tell

1:22:59

me if it works.

1:23:01

it works There's there's

1:23:03

there's math. That's

1:23:05

always good.

1:23:05

Right? When there's

1:23:08

math?

1:23:08

Well,

1:23:10

it must work. Look

1:23:12

at that. Our show today brought to you by

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one's got I don't know why. It's got

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WiFi

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what that's for.

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And then all

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these LEDs and

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and it's got a it's

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got three display ports. It's got

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like two ten gigabit Ethernet

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ports. It's got breakouts for a for a bus.

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Very cool. very

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Onlogic dot com slash Twitter.

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Thank you onlogic for supporting

1:27:33

the show. Alright. We gotta talk

1:27:35

about FTX because this is another drama. Oh, wait a minute. Before I do though, this

1:27:37

just in

1:27:40

on Twitter. this just seen on

1:27:42

twitter Sean Penn has just given

1:27:44

his Oscar to the

1:27:47

Ukraine. Yes. There's

1:27:50

president Zelensky. I don't know they're very happy about that. I don't know

1:27:53

what I don't know what they're what

1:27:55

are they gonna do with his

1:27:57

Oscar, but but they've got

1:27:59

it now. Don't you

1:28:02

love it how Hollywood's really

1:28:04

stepping up?

1:28:05

Yeah. You think president Zelensky

1:28:07

would like Miami?

1:28:09

Did you

1:28:10

see the pictures of Banksy's though putting all over

1:28:13

Ukraine?

1:28:16

That's cool. Right?

1:28:17

He's gone to Ukraine. He's putting up

1:28:19

banksy paintings all over. Anyway, I don't know. I had

1:28:21

to I had to bring this.

1:28:22

See, there's good stuff on Twitter. still.

1:28:26

I would never have known about

1:28:28

that. After it's

1:28:30

more than one person on

1:28:32

Twitter. There

1:28:35

is. We don't know how many there are. If it's not

1:28:37

only my must We may only think about

1:28:39

the one person in particular. Yeah. No. I know

1:28:41

who you're talking. There's a few others. Yeah.

1:28:43

A few others. Can we forget

1:28:46

about CryptoNow? Is it over? Can we just move on?

1:28:48

Say And if you

1:28:50

don't invest in it, you forget

1:28:53

about it. Yeah. If you've got if you've got a crypto wallet, especially if you've got

1:28:55

a custodial wallet, you might wanna think about

1:28:58

it. How's your doze going to and

1:29:00

father? I

1:29:03

haven't

1:29:03

checked on that for I cashed

1:29:05

out a huge chunk of the

1:29:08

dogecoin so that I

1:29:10

could invest in other those. And then when it started dipping south,

1:29:12

I cashed it out, and I'm I've just

1:29:14

got it in a holding account right now. So

1:29:16

I'm not affected by the dip

1:29:18

at all. I'm just watching it just

1:29:20

in horror for the people who

1:29:22

are now stuck with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in

1:29:25

cryptocurrency like Are

1:29:27

you, normally, never hit Yeah.

1:29:30

Andrey, are

1:29:31

you just experimenting with crypto or

1:29:33

do you have a significant

1:29:35

investment in

1:29:35

it? I'm pretty sure experimenting.

1:29:38

Yes. Go point that I'm mine for fun. Yeah. Back in the

1:29:40

early early days, I was one of the very first

1:29:42

minors, and I got a couple million

1:29:46

of which became some real money just a couple of years ago.

1:29:48

And then I sold that and started investing

1:29:50

in some others and made some money there.

1:29:52

But you

1:29:54

know, III said this on

1:29:56

another tweet. cryptocurrency is great

1:29:58

as a speculative

1:29:59

but you should

1:30:00

not fool yourself into thinking that

1:30:03

it it's actually anything. It it's not it's not held up by

1:30:05

anything. So you you need to be ready

1:30:07

to lose Absolutely. And

1:30:09

it's held up

1:30:12

by marketing. Exactly.

1:30:12

Exactly. By marketing and how much

1:30:14

pressure gets, period. Right? Exactly. people like me

1:30:16

find

1:30:16

it interesting, but there

1:30:18

are

1:30:18

there are some people who who

1:30:22

invested because they thought it would just keep up thing

1:30:24

is for every for every

1:30:26

person that it

1:30:27

goes up, somebody else

1:30:31

loses money. So it can't

1:30:32

go up for everyone. Look at the this

1:30:35

is weird. I don't know what this has

1:30:37

to do with anything, but you made me

1:30:39

think of this with those coin. crypto dot

1:30:41

com, thirty percent of the assets are in bitcoin,

1:30:43

nineteen percent of the assets are

1:30:47

in Sheba Inu. More than they have is

1:30:50

an ethereum. That is a meme crypto from a meme coin. Yeah.

1:30:52

We're just doing multiple levels.

1:30:54

This is basically the the CDO.

1:30:57

of cryptos. It's crazy. Alright. So let's

1:30:59

cover the the that's that's so

1:31:03

you may remember the

1:31:07

Super Bowl last year, a guy named Larry

1:31:09

David, Kirby Enthusiasm did a very nice,

1:31:11

very funny ad for

1:31:14

a little company called