0:00

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Tides

0:02

of History early and ad-free right now.

0:04

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

0:06

or Apple Podcasts. Hi

0:19

everybody, from Wondery, welcome to another episode of

0:21

Tides of History. I'm Patrick Wyman. Thanks so

0:23

much for joining me. As

0:25

the years go on and I delve into different

0:27

eras and different parts of the world, I keep

0:29

coming back to a fundamental question. History

0:32

is full of people doing terrible

0:34

things to one another, ranging from

0:36

the everyday cruelties of social oppression

0:38

to slavery to conquest to full-blown

0:40

genocide. So why

0:42

do ordinary people agree to participate

0:45

in those actions? What

0:47

makes a seemingly run-of-the-mill individual, someone with

0:49

a family and friends who laughs at

0:51

jokes and cares for their children, drag

0:54

other children into the holds of a

0:56

slave ship or slaughter a village of

0:58

non-combatants? To help work

1:00

through my thoughts on this, I wrote

1:02

an essay for my newsletter, which you

1:04

can find at patrickwyman.substack.com. It's

1:07

entitled, Ordinary People Do Terrible Things, and

1:09

it takes a long-term historical perspective on

1:11

the issue. Using examples

1:13

from ancient Assyria to the Second World

1:15

War, I talk about social pressure, how

1:18

heinous acts can become normalized, and the

1:20

entirely ordinary people who take part in

1:22

those actions. To

1:24

help work through these questions further, I had

1:26

a long chat with the historian and podcaster

1:28

Danielle Bolelli, who hosts History on Fire and

1:31

often deals with the darker side of history.

1:34

This is a little different than my usual interviews, but I

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or download the app today. Hi,

2:47

everybody. So I wrote an essay on

2:50

my sub stack not that long ago,

2:52

and I am going to have a

2:54

pretty fascinating conversation today with the historian

2:56

and podcaster, Daniele Bolelli, about it. Here

2:59

is more or

3:02

less the thesis statement of that essay as

3:04

a starting point. Ambitious

3:06

politicians and conquerors didn't do the dirty work

3:09

of history themselves. They had underlings, generals, and

3:11

officers, and common soldiers and

3:13

bureaucrats to enforce their will. Those

3:16

underlings participated in acts that, by any reasonable standard of moral behavior,

3:19

range from the merely distasteful to completely abhorrent.

3:22

It would be comforting to think that

3:24

those who murdered children burned houses with

3:26

the residents inside, committed acts of sexual

3:28

violence, and enslaved the survivors were uniquely

3:30

evil. It would be easier

3:32

to believe that these participants had somehow

3:34

forfeited their humanity somewhere along their path

3:36

to organized violence. We would prefer

3:39

to fool ourselves into thinking they formed a

3:41

special class of malefactors, separate from the farmers

3:43

and shopkeepers and laborers who made up their

3:45

societies as a whole. These

3:47

ideas would be wrong. The agents

3:49

of empire and conquest were not a marked group of

3:51

sadists. They fit quite comfortably within

3:54

the mainstream of the societies that produced them

3:56

and benefited from their actions. So

3:59

my question for you is, as a starting point

4:01

here is, do you buy this? Does this actually

4:03

work? Do you think that this is kind of

4:05

trans-historically true or not? 100%,

4:08

that's why I love Dior I

4:59

mean, who goes and yeah, you can go

5:01

down the list of horrific actions that happen

5:03

in various situations. It's like, you

5:06

know, it's comforting to think like we are in

5:08

Lord of the Rings and these diorcs that don't

5:10

have like vanity. They are just orcs. You don't

5:12

have to ask questions about why they do it.

5:15

They are orcs. What do you expect? You know,

5:17

that kind of thing. But

5:19

then of course, it's a lot less

5:21

comfortable when you realize, no, the overwhelming

5:24

majority of people are not murderous psychopaths.

5:27

They just decided to go

5:29

along with what was

5:31

it? Oh, seems not out of hand

5:33

or oh, my commanding officer told us

5:35

to raise that village to ground or,

5:37

you know, there's always an excuse that

5:41

a normal, reasonable person

5:43

will put forward for

5:46

completely abhorrent behavior. And

5:49

so it's fascinating to me because I think

5:52

I think most of us would stop and

5:55

say there is no scenario in which I

5:57

would ever do that. You Know, there's just

5:59

no. No way in hell doesn't matter

6:01

what the contexts, he doesn't matter what the

6:03

seeing, There's just no way. In

6:06

maybe Stroop. Clearly it's not the do for

6:08

whatever many of us state clearly not true

6:11

for a good the number of these people

6:13

the all clear. We like to be that

6:15

a wad was not into a like i

6:17

don't think everybody's gonna behave that way on

6:20

their their rights right in this case at

6:22

all the circumstances but at the same time

6:24

is undeniable that when you look at the

6:26

history a lot of people behave that way

6:28

under those circumstances. So. The question

6:31

that fascinates me? that what separates

6:33

those two sets of people? You.

6:35

Know you seem to like for example

6:37

about the something like the Me Like

6:39

Massacre see Vietnam. Eight You.

6:42

Have a whole bunch of

6:44

American troops committing atrocities against

6:46

that I civilian population. Back

6:48

in the same exact scenario, do you

6:51

also have some American troops who love

6:53

their guns and stop the other guys

6:55

from cdc the massacre? And so the

6:57

question is they are all Americans. The

7:00

our old there in the South Ferry

7:02

instead of the same Pts, the struggling

7:04

with the same stuff. And

7:06

some will make the ceased to address raping

7:08

and murdering village or so and that others

7:10

will go like know That's not why I'm

7:13

the we're not doing this, I'm actually gonna

7:15

shoot you in the had if you try

7:17

to go ahead and keep doing that. What?

7:20

Is it that cool? This one person to

7:23

via right and what bars has to be

7:25

our last to win see seen such high

7:27

stress it with a some. And.

7:30

You know I have money theories but up

7:32

two years what's your take offence. I think

7:34

it's really interesting because that is the at

7:36

least that is that the is a meal

7:38

I massacre is as close to a controlled

7:41

experiments in why some people do it and

7:43

why some people don't. As your as you're

7:45

ever going to find because there's you're exactly

7:47

right it. There's nothing separating those that participate

7:49

in it from those that don't It is

7:52

there a identical backgrounds? They're all conscripts. It's

7:54

not like one group is drawn from a

7:56

different segment of society than the others, that

7:58

they've had different experiences. as close to

8:00

a purely moral trigger for those things

8:03

as you can imagine. And it's the

8:05

same thing with Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men,

8:07

which is one of my favorite book.

8:09

It's something I talk about a great

8:11

deal in this essay about a reserve

8:13

police battalion on the Eastern Front in

8:15

World War II that quite literally did

8:17

the dirty work of going

8:19

around and shooting Jews, that some

8:21

people when they were presented with

8:23

the task of what they

8:25

were going to have to do, they immediately said that

8:27

they weren't going to do it. And they

8:29

suffered no penalties for not having done it. They

8:32

were given other duties, maybe they had to

8:34

take a little crap from people who decided

8:36

to participate, but they suffered no professional consequences.

8:38

They weren't punished in any meaningful way for

8:40

this. But once the

8:42

others had decided to make the choice, in

8:45

the first place, they pretty much kept doing it

8:47

that once that switch had been flipped, they kept

8:50

going with it. And that's the part that I

8:52

wonder is how

8:54

contingent is that

8:57

switch? How hard is it

8:59

to make that decision in the moment? Because it

9:01

seems to be pretty tough. It seems that in

9:03

Browning's research, it is about 10%, somewhere

9:05

between 10 and 20% of the

9:07

reserve police battalion decided not to

9:10

participate in those massacres. The numbers for Mili

9:12

are maybe a little better, but still not

9:14

that good. So it raises the

9:16

question of how many people have that

9:18

moral trigger? And we'd all

9:20

like to believe that we're in that 10 to 20%. And

9:22

it seems pretty clear that we wouldn't be. Well,

9:26

and I think the part where it gets crazy

9:29

is that the scenario you just

9:31

described is a scenario where you

9:33

suffer no consequences. I'm even

9:35

thinking of the ones where you do, like

9:37

for example, there was in the in

9:39

the San Crick massacre in 1864, where you had, you

9:44

know, the group of Cheyenne being

9:46

mainly women and kids been massacred

9:48

by this group of all of

9:50

Colorado militia volunteer, the

9:52

guys who stood against it, there was like,

9:55

you know, one of my heroes is this

9:57

guy, Stylus Soul was an absolute badass. situation

10:00

just had all the soldiers under

10:02

him, making sure they would

10:05

not participate in the massacre, help some of

10:07

the women and kids escape and all of

10:09

that. He testified against the

10:11

leader of the militia later saying, no, that

10:13

was not a battle. That was a straight

10:15

up massacre. And he was promptly murdered for

10:18

it. And the guys who killed him then

10:20

never suffered any consequences. They essentially got away

10:22

with it. So I'm like,

10:24

here is a guy who in the

10:26

face of extreme danger, and in this

10:28

case, very justified since he will end

10:30

up getting murdered, decide to

10:32

make that choice anyway. I

10:34

can think of other scenarios. I

10:37

recently have been preparing a couple

10:39

of episodes about civil

10:41

war in El Salvador during the 1970s

10:43

and 1980s. And

10:46

I was reading the story of this one

10:48

officer that when he decided to not carry

10:50

out a massacre, he knew that he would

10:52

have to defect to the guerilla because there

10:54

was no in between. It's like if I'm

10:56

not obeying the orders of my superiors, it's

10:59

just a matter of time until they're going to put

11:01

a bullet in my hand. So he had to switch

11:03

sides. So that's people

11:05

who make the choices when the stakes are

11:08

as high as they could be. And

11:11

they still make that choice. How

11:14

somebody would you describe, like go

11:16

and murder a whole bunch of Jewish people,

11:19

but if you don't want to, don't worry, we'll

11:21

have you go do these other things. It's like,

11:24

how is that hard choice? It doesn't seem like it.

11:26

And yet that's the truly horrifying

11:31

thing about it is the social pressures that accumulate

11:33

to put people in a position where they feel

11:35

that they have to go along with decisions like

11:37

that, or they feel they're obligated, or I mean,

11:40

I suppose most horrifying that they feel like

11:42

it's the right thing to do under those

11:44

circumstances. Not just that it's a bad act

11:46

that they're doing because they don't want to,

11:48

but that they are actively buying in, which

11:50

is often seems to be the case. I

11:52

mean, the Sand Creek Massacre is such a

11:54

great example, because they're militia, they are drawn

11:56

from the rank and file of society.

11:59

These are not. like when we're

12:01

talking about other wars on the American

12:03

frontier and you're talking about regular army

12:05

cavalry regiments, then you might be talking

12:07

about some self selection for people who

12:10

are accustomed to violence, like violence,

12:13

don't mind digging into the more brutal side

12:15

of human nature. But if

12:17

we're talking about militia, this is a

12:19

much more straightforward segment of humanity to

12:21

be dealing with. And yet, there

12:24

were still people who decided not to do it. It

12:26

puts the lie, I think, as much as we always

12:28

want to be understanding people by

12:30

the standards and according to the norms

12:32

and mores of their own time, that's

12:35

not a get out of jail free

12:37

card for doing terrible things that alternatives,

12:40

even if they're difficult to imagine, are

12:42

indeed imaginable. And people

12:44

have done them. And that's, I think, their sure

12:46

empire that yes, a lot of

12:48

people, even the majority of people will

12:50

just be a flag in the wind that

12:53

goes with whatever the general consensus of the

12:55

groupies. And if the consensus is let's carry

12:57

out a massacre, they'll go like, I

13:00

guess that's what we're doing. Let's go. But there's

13:03

also that's not that in your mind, there is

13:05

a percentage of population that would

13:07

never do it under

13:09

any circumstances. In

13:11

all kinds of places, you know, you go through

13:13

our history, there are examples of this stuff of

13:15

people who say, hell no, we're not doing that,

13:17

especially because, I mean, we're being delicate

13:19

with this. But the reality is that is

13:21

one thing to imagine it as, oh, it's

13:23

war and you got a little carried away.

13:27

It's a whole other thing when you

13:29

are talking like mass rape or using

13:31

a three year old for target shooting,

13:33

you know, it's like, how do you,

13:35

even if you're saying the enemy is

13:37

evil, they are this terrible force that

13:40

need to be squashed. Then, okay,

13:42

let's assume that we can find

13:45

a rationale for feeling that way. You

13:47

still don't shoot a three year old, you know, what

13:49

I mean is like, that's taking it

13:52

12 steps beyond the enemy need to

13:54

be squashed. It's like, How

13:56

does your brain sleep from

13:58

normal civilian life? I yelled

14:00

to the old lady cross the street and

14:02

I'm nice to the cashier kind of seeing

14:04

the to shooting a three year old likes.

14:08

To. Me there's no toward the back is like

14:10

and eight his. It's like Sat secrecy, not the

14:12

line that yards. Not saying that I don't know.

14:14

like the scale and the that the way you

14:16

justify to yourselves. You know you can justify yourself

14:19

like shield the bunch of people in war. Because

14:21

they were Deanna Me, I had to do what

14:23

I have to do. I get

14:25

it's you can find on the right

14:27

circumstances. You can find an argument. But.

14:31

I don't think you can be like I don't

14:33

care what the circumstances side of values of the

14:35

thigh, there's no way to speed cheadle in a

14:37

three year old been a good way. You know

14:39

what I mean. Like even in your own the

14:41

head I don't think there's the you know we

14:43

all like to be the hero in our own

14:45

movie. I don't know that

14:47

there's a movie where you can scheme killer

14:49

that three year old as they're still to

14:51

annoy people. Do it and I'm like, oh,

14:53

do you. Hope.

14:57

So this is fascinating and it's it's is

14:59

incredibly difficult question to answer, but it does

15:01

seem to be the case that people do

15:03

that and then they go back to their

15:05

normal lives afterwards. One of the many horrifying

15:07

things about the case that Browning discusses a

15:10

in ordinary men this was or please battalions

15:12

is all of these guys after they've done

15:14

these horrible things And you know they provide

15:16

accounts of having shot women and children and

15:18

being covered in in brain matter after they've

15:20

done this. And ah is the but then

15:23

they did. You go back to their normal

15:25

lives there. from Hamburg they go. Back to

15:27

Hamburg, they go back to their jobs

15:29

as waiters and dock workers and truck

15:31

drivers. And it's only twenty years later

15:33

when the West German government is doing

15:35

and of deep dive investigations into war crimes

15:37

and World War Two that their crimes

15:39

come to. Like these people have fully

15:41

reintegrated back into society in the preceding twenty

15:44

years. Most of them are still even

15:46

anonymous in the records that Browning uses.

15:48

I'm for reasons of privacy, but they

15:50

did just reintegrate back into society. So these

15:52

people are walking around every day. It's

15:54

they see their families, they're walking down

15:56

the street. And you would have no

15:58

idea. Of what they had

16:00

done in Poland and Ukraine, I'm

16:02

twenty years before. And. A

16:04

power that I find he said all

16:07

possible. Even weirder is when people know

16:09

what they have done. He's. Not

16:11

happy cities and known fact. And.

16:13

Steel, they are gonna go back home and

16:15

sighing Saddam woman who marries damn and true

16:18

Swift keeps with them and of blights. Your.on

16:21

the battlefield are not Bullets fly and you

16:23

lost your mind that you have other and

16:25

I'll be you are in the regular daily

16:27

life and York's who seem to marry. A.

16:30

Guy you we would just do all these

16:32

up prophesying said yeah we live at a

16:34

happy family and cheap subjects like. A.

16:38

Cyborgs. What is admittedly are you

16:40

know it's something dissolved in I

16:42

think that therein. Lies.

16:45

The. Much larger kind of

16:48

structural political. And. Social implications

16:50

of an Emmy and that's kind of

16:52

one of the tricks of empires thing,

16:54

right? is that you are implicating. The

16:57

civilian population as a hole in the

16:59

crimes that make empires possible and because

17:02

people are benefiting from it does. One

17:04

of the the basic things about Empire

17:06

A is that there's kind of a

17:08

contract where the people who are I

17:10

on the insides are getting something good

17:12

from the empire whether that's cheap goods

17:15

or cheap slave labor or of some

17:17

kind of material benefit nice nice jobs

17:19

in the Imperial administration's There's some sort

17:21

of quid pro quo the the people

17:23

inside the empire getting and they can

17:25

tell themselves the story about. How they

17:28

deserve It said that other people are bearing

17:30

the cost for it in are bearing the

17:32

costing quite direct ways, but so. When.

17:34

These people are going out and they're doing

17:36

the dirty work a vampire. Whether it's Caesar

17:39

soldiers and goal, or if you know, if

17:41

you think that America in the twentieth and

17:43

twenty for century as an empire and Afghanistan

17:45

or Iraq or Vietnam as if it's if

17:48

the people who go out and do that

17:50

and then come back, there's almost an obligation

17:52

to accept them back into society. To say

17:54

that knows really what we're doing is okay

17:56

Rates is this is this, is all right.

17:59

This is it. Some way shape or

18:01

form justify your keeping us safe, right?

18:03

This is part of the deal of

18:05

empires that what you've done over there

18:07

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19:56

down because he was so perfect

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for to stop it was by

20:00

Goering of old people. But

20:02

basically, so I'll paraphrase, but essentially

20:04

what he was saying, as a

20:06

good Nazi idologues, he didn't want

20:08

to manipulate the masses. And essentially

20:11

he was saying, look, there's

20:13

no benefit for some poor slob

20:15

who's as a farm in the

20:17

middle of Germany somewhere for doing

20:19

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20:22

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20:26

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sell him a story. We have to sell him a

20:35

tale about the glory of the nation and the ease

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and that and the other. And the

20:39

funny thing about the quote is that he's completely

20:41

aware and explicit on the idea that

20:43

he's just manipulating people, but none of

20:45

it is real. Like the benefit for

20:48

the empire does not translate to the

20:50

benefit of the individual who was a

20:52

saint in the trenches. And

20:54

I thought to me, it

20:57

was brilliant because he

20:59

was coming from a guy who was doing that.

21:01

But at the same time, he's like, don't we

21:03

all know it? I mean, isn't that kind of

21:06

what we all understand? And clearly not, because otherwise

21:08

there wouldn't be that

21:10

many people ready to fill the trenches and

21:12

not because they were pushed into it, not

21:14

because they are forcibly recruited, but they are

21:16

like true believers and they feel like, and

21:19

I'm just like, how do you not

21:21

see that that story

21:23

you have been sold that really does

21:25

not improve your day to day life

21:28

this much? It's

21:31

a good question, right? And I think the answer,

21:33

I would say probably varies

21:35

from society to society, that if

21:38

we buy that on some level, the

21:40

states are, on some level, the

21:42

states are mechanisms for elites

21:45

to get things that they want, to extract

21:47

surplus from the people inside to wield the

21:49

state structures as a weapon to get things

21:51

they want from people outside, that

21:55

on some level, these are elite

21:57

driven ideologies, But the flip side of

21:59

it is, Elite driven ideology is always. the people

22:01

are buying into it and so what makes

22:03

people buy into it is it is it.

22:06

That's it. Makes them feel like they're part

22:08

of something larger than themselves? Is that the

22:10

tantalizing hope of material gain? So you know

22:12

your Caesar soldiers and golf ab. You could

22:14

take a string of slaves home and sell

22:16

them in the market. You get some, you

22:18

get a pocket the profits as the case

22:20

in the Assyrian Empire the example that I

22:22

use in the essays. These I'm a ten

22:24

man group of a Syrian soldiers who were

22:26

kind of called up for service when they

22:29

go home from the conquest. Of alarmist, their

22:31

granted to slaves and they sell the

22:33

slaves and then they pocket the profits

22:35

and they get to take that money

22:37

and reinvested in their their businesses as

22:39

bakers and goldsmiths. And and all that

22:41

good stuff like they're literally deriving a

22:43

material benefit from this. So is it

22:45

That tantalizing possibility is that they have

22:47

by virtue of doing. I mean, I

22:50

think the one that's. The kind

22:52

of horrifying one. That's. Far

22:54

too often holds true is that by doing

22:56

violence to other people, you are reinforcing your

22:58

own sense of who you are. Or

23:00

the by other people being the targets

23:02

of that violence. It is an act

23:05

of reinforcing one's own identity of like

23:07

in group our group distinctions. I think

23:09

that's the really. Messed. Up Answer:

23:11

It becomes so much easier to do that to

23:13

other people and in some ways it becomes

23:15

necessary to prove that you deserve this benefit or

23:18

that you put your part of the in group

23:20

that other people have to suffer that say

23:22

they are now and I think it's. Yeah,

23:25

I mean is extremely disturbing on that

23:27

level. And and they think you rightfully

23:29

point to something where there's a like

23:31

to believe that impacts. There's the path

23:33

where you directly benefits on a personal

23:35

lives. And so you're does

23:37

that citing to make the choice that says

23:39

you know off his father I need to

23:42

cause them to sustain and destroy. Did allies

23:44

off one to five, twenty five on that

23:46

are people for me to pain. It's totally

23:49

wired. it. It's a sad thing

23:51

about where your moral compass he is at

23:53

that there's the other. Will add that season

23:55

said there were you gain absolutely no back

23:58

and see bother Danny have been sold. The

24:00

story. That to the in all clearly you

24:02

have a psychological need to be part of

24:04

something you need. That a bad be figuring

24:06

that it but orioles seek Burrow Thousand Oaks

24:09

What to do? We are doing it for

24:11

the glory of the nation are some things

24:13

and the psychological benefits you that I saw

24:15

me to their rights. The fact that is

24:17

definitely not good for your life. You.

24:20

Need their scenario. I mean why these

24:22

for material benefits? Want is for a

24:25

psychological attachment but he needs their scenario.

24:27

You are essentially decide in. My

24:30

life. My needs are worth more

24:32

than any been aired sap fitting

24:34

that somebody else can seal. And.

24:38

He says lights. Okay,

24:40

yeah, noise sir. I think part of

24:42

what makes these interesting to me is

24:44

that. These. Are choices Now

24:46

I don't know that these are choices that

24:48

people may consciously and so the bar that

24:50

interests me is we all as we go

24:53

through lied to come up with our own

24:55

chord of calling though thorough and moral code

24:57

for our we want to carry ourselves in

24:59

life where we consider acceptable A while we

25:01

dance. But. My guess

25:03

based on the evidence is that

25:05

most people don't really dig that

25:07

deep. They don't ask questions sword

25:09

that hard about who they are

25:11

and would a wannabe. In.

25:14

Terms saw what their values sar before

25:16

react like in reality I would I

25:18

behave while would I do was now

25:20

would what do I do when I

25:22

walked out the door? I want my

25:24

god I interact with other people's. I.

25:26

Think for most people is a very

25:28

bad as he kind of concepts and

25:30

that these are all seems to which

25:33

they hold the every other allegiance because

25:35

they've never really sat down and made

25:37

it like. Who. The hell am

25:39

I. What are my priorities? What we

25:41

want to leave behind? The what's My

25:43

Legacy said. Any that I live in,

25:45

The people? a draft way to what

25:47

do I stand before? Ultimately. I

25:49

don't know that. that's a question. That's.

25:52

He's. Taken that seriously. By

25:54

that many people Because if you do, If.

25:57

you do that aware are lining the

25:59

same that say, no, you know, for me,

26:03

there's no possible scenario in which

26:05

rape is acceptable. You know, you're

26:07

not saying murder because you're saying, ah, we are at war.

26:09

That guy was shooting at me. I had to kill him.

26:11

Okay, sure. Fair. No,

26:14

no, you're saying something where, you know, there

26:16

is no self-defense rape. There is no self-defense

26:18

against fighting five-year-olds. It's like these are like,

26:20

is there ever a point where you drew

26:22

the line and say, yeah, no.

26:25

And it's not if you put a gun to

26:27

my head, kind of circumstances. If

26:30

you really believe it, my guess is that

26:32

you would probably be in the 10 to

26:34

20% of people who

26:37

would cross the line. If you really, if it's

26:39

a big deal to you, if

26:41

it's kind of like, uh, I want

26:44

to be a good person. It's like, yeah, what does

26:46

that mean? That's too fuzzy and

26:48

too intangible to really like, you can

26:50

be held accountable because you're going to

26:53

switch the definition of good depending on

26:55

the context you're in. And

26:57

suddenly shooting five-year-olds is, uh, is somehow

26:59

is part of the good. Um,

27:03

I think there's, um, I mean,

27:06

I guess that's where it goes to my

27:08

thesis on these, which I'm not, you know,

27:10

I'm not necessarily sold on it is where

27:12

I'm at right now, but maybe I'll find

27:14

out and look at it differently. But my

27:16

interpretation is that most people, while I do

27:18

buy the notion that most people are not

27:20

evil person, I do believe

27:22

the idea that most people are weak. And

27:26

what I mean by that is that they are

27:28

a flag in the wind that they depend. If

27:30

the majority of people around them is screaming loudly

27:32

in one direction, they are going to go with

27:34

it. They are now going to

27:37

be the one who say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

27:39

Jaya mob, let me stop you there. I

27:41

think this is a bad idea. I don't think that's,

27:45

I do believe that yet maybe that's 10 to 20% of

27:47

the people who would do

27:49

that. And the vast majority are not

27:51

even people who you meet them in daily life

27:53

and they can be pleasant and fairly nice people.

27:56

I Think that being weak in

27:58

your values will translate. Lead to when

28:00

the stakes are high, under stress is high and

28:03

all of that. The or

28:05

the only way. To. Guard ourselves against

28:07

that because I think that's the upshot

28:09

of all this right is that we

28:11

need that. This rather than assume that

28:13

because we're not, we have some abstract

28:16

ideals about the importance of human rights

28:18

and the universality of the value of

28:20

life. This that because it at least

28:22

in some way shape or form or

28:24

world pays lip service to those to

28:27

think that that's somehow inoculates us against

28:29

the possibility of being participants and in

28:31

terrible acts. That very much the opposite

28:33

that it. It gives us a false

28:35

sense of security. That we are somehow

28:37

immune from being part of the processes that

28:40

lead to those things happening. We're not immune

28:42

from it. The only weighed sir is the

28:44

only way to ensure that we don't do

28:46

it is to is to think really hard

28:48

about the consequences and where we draw those

28:50

lines and see what is what is one

28:52

person's redline. What is your red line? Because

28:54

the the tend to twenty percent saying. To.

28:56

The extent that you can prove that empirically

28:58

on the basis of the available evidence that

29:00

seems to be pretty solid on the that

29:02

seems to be those are those are pretty

29:05

good. So numbers to start from start? does

29:07

it mean that it's going to be the

29:09

same in every single society or culture? But

29:11

if you're looking for a baseline, tend to

29:13

twenty percent of people who will absolutely refuse

29:15

as it is a good number to start

29:17

with. I'm everybody wants to think that they

29:19

are special enough to be in that hundred

29:21

twenty percent, but we know that's not true.

29:24

We know that's not the case. Ah, I

29:26

remember like. The So when I when I

29:28

wrote this essay my favorite response that I

29:30

got with somebody saying you know I really

29:32

liked it but I missed it. But the

29:34

yes it must have cut off the part

29:36

of the and where you said it was

29:38

all going to be okay. Sick, it's assisted

29:40

I love that. Add the and that's the

29:42

thing is like people do expect you to

29:45

out when when you think hard about these

29:47

issues, when you think hard about their consequences

29:49

and what they mean for how we said

29:51

how we should organize society and organize ourselves

29:53

and that's that. there's some sort of silver

29:55

bullet and there's not. there's no one

29:57

reform there's no one thing you can do

29:59

to say that we're gonna stop every atrocity

30:01

before it happens. It's the aggregate

30:04

of those individual choices and making it possible

30:06

for people to make the ones that we

30:08

think are morally right. And

30:11

to me, I'm big on the idea. I mean,

30:13

I really strongly believe in radical honesty. So I

30:15

don't believe in putting a face forward that I

30:17

don't live for real. Like for me, like what

30:19

you see is what you got. If I tell

30:22

you that I believe in something is because I

30:24

know that I'm gonna live up to it. Otherwise

30:26

I'm not gonna say it because if it sound

30:28

good or I think you're gonna like me if

30:30

I say it because come on,

30:32

life is short enough. Like let's be

30:34

real with each other. Let's be real

30:36

first with ourselves about who we are.

30:38

Who we, so to me, like I

30:42

find that that makes it so much easier

30:44

to have a one to one ratio between

30:46

your stated values and how you carry yourself.

30:48

And again, I'm not gonna state values that

30:50

I think even sound good if I don't

30:53

think I'm gonna live up to that. So,

30:55

but to me is I, once you say it

30:58

again, I may be fetishizing this a bit, but

31:00

I take the idea of giving your word or

31:02

having a value that you state that this is

31:04

what you believe in, then you

31:07

behave accordingly, very seriously. To

31:09

me, if you don't, I don't wanna

31:11

go the samurai out of it's time to

31:14

stick a short sword in your grass and

31:16

be side to side, but kind of it's

31:18

like to me, it's like if you state

31:20

that you believe certain things and

31:23

you don't live up to them, who are you?

31:26

You know what kind of like,

31:28

and so in that regard, I find it useful

31:31

for any of us to be

31:33

very real about what we can live

31:35

with. What like, for example, in

31:37

every other, let's take it 10 notches

31:40

down from mass occurrence and seeing

31:42

something much more ordinary. If

31:45

let's say you decide whether because you like it

31:47

or maybe you don't like it, but you agree

31:49

to it, you should decide the monogram is the

31:52

way to go. And so you get into a

31:54

monogamous relationship and you're essentially making a deal that

31:57

this will be a monogamous relationship and you agree

31:59

to it. Well, now

32:01

it's your word. You know what I mean? It's

32:03

like suddenly you decide that, oh, Monogamy is awesome.

32:05

Except that in this case, I'm going to go

32:08

off with this one because she's hot and I'm

32:10

going to have my fling. And I'm going to

32:12

go back then to say how great Monogamy is.

32:14

It's like, you're a piece

32:16

of crap, you know, because it's different if you

32:18

told from the get-go. Like, no, I want an

32:21

open relationship. It's like, okay, honorable. You know, you

32:23

are, you leave your values. You are being open

32:25

about it. You are being honest about who you

32:27

are. I have nothing against it. If somebody you

32:30

give them a free choice to either go with it

32:32

or not, honorable. But

32:35

the thing that bothers me, I think,

32:38

is the hypocrisy between people's stated values

32:40

or assumption of goodness and then behavior.

32:43

To me, it's like, don't say something unless

32:45

you're going to be able to live up

32:47

to it. And I think

32:49

that shows exactly the danger,

32:52

right? It's that what most people are

32:54

going to do in that situation is

32:56

work backwards from their actions and find

32:59

the way in which it's good or

33:01

acceptable as opposed to judging their actions

33:03

according to the standard that they would

33:05

have used beforehand. So the baseline thing

33:07

is that people find it really hard

33:09

to think of themselves as bad people

33:11

or as having done wicked and evil

33:14

things. So either they pretend they didn't

33:16

do it, they claim they didn't do

33:18

it. This is something that

33:20

happened all the time within the case that

33:22

Browning's looking at with the members of

33:24

the Reserve Police Battalion, the former policeman

33:26

claimed that they hadn't participated or they

33:28

hadn't been there that day or they

33:30

had had no choice or all sorts

33:33

of excuses, justifications, outright

33:36

lies to get out

33:38

of having to accept the reality of

33:40

what they had participated in. And obviously,

33:43

mass murder is a lot different than

33:45

infidelity. But the principle in the sense

33:47

that how do you explain to yourself

33:49

what you've done? How do you justify to

33:52

yourself what you've done? How do you live with

33:54

it? That is a

33:56

universal of human experience. And

33:58

we would all love to believe that in

34:00

that situation, we stand up and we convince

34:02

everybody else that, you know, not to do

34:04

the bad thing. And, you know, we, we

34:06

give a speech and we're like, we're standing

34:08

up for what's good. And, you know, we,

34:11

maybe we changed the world in that moment,

34:13

right? Like we do the charming movie thing.

34:16

If that happened, then there would be a lot

34:18

fewer of those instances. And

34:20

I think that's asking a little too

34:23

much in the sense that you're all, you're not just

34:25

saying, I'm not going to do it. And I'm going

34:27

to take a hard line. You're going to say, I'm

34:29

going to lead and charge against the crowd and somehow

34:31

even convince them, which is out of your hands because

34:34

you can give the greatest speech on earth and you

34:36

can still get shot the next second. You

34:38

know, it's like, so it's like, no,

34:41

that's an unrealistic standard. There's no way to

34:43

know that you're going to have that kind

34:45

of impact. But what's not an unrealistic standard

34:47

is you making a choice not to do

34:50

that. You control that there. It

34:52

doesn't depend on any other factor. The

34:55

other things that depends on other factors

34:57

and then it gets extra complicated and

34:59

probably, as you said, unrealistic. But

35:02

that basic one doesn't, you know what

35:04

I mean? It's like, just don't shoot

35:06

the kids. We're not asking for the

35:08

money. You know, it's a pretty low

35:10

bar to clear and somehow if you

35:12

can clear that, there's

35:14

not, but exactly what you say, the

35:16

fact that people justify to themselves just

35:18

about anything. That's

35:20

the part that, I

35:22

don't know, my

35:25

feeling is that because even

35:27

in daily life, people don't

35:29

take their values, their sense

35:32

of giving your word seriously

35:34

enough. Like they don't

35:36

do it when it doesn't, when it's

35:38

some fairly minor stuff in day to

35:40

day relationships. They are definitely not going

35:42

to do it when it comes to

35:44

the battlefield and war. They have nightmares

35:46

every time they close their eyes and

35:48

they are stressed, PTSD, you name it.

35:52

So to me, it's like, of

35:54

course, I mean 10 to 20 percent almost seem like

35:56

a good statistic. Like, oh, actually, it's more than I

35:58

thought. That's not that bad. When

36:01

you look at the number of people who

36:03

fail to do this in just in daily

36:05

life without that kind of pressure, when

36:07

you turn the pressure up to the max, of course

36:10

they are going to crack. That's

36:12

not even up for discussion. But

36:14

I guess the question that always fascinates me,

36:16

and I'm not even saying it because I'm

36:18

saying, look, I'm such a good guy, I

36:20

never would. It's more like, how

36:22

do you live with

36:25

stated values? If you

36:27

then see plenty of evidence

36:29

that you don't live up to that, how do

36:31

you live with yourself? How do

36:33

you not think, man, I'm a really

36:36

awful human being. I

36:38

don't know, I have a very hard question to

36:40

me. My thing is, well, this

36:42

is just to make you laugh, but

36:44

this is my weird psychology. I

36:48

did it on some ridiculous stuff.

36:51

I had the writer's block, I had to

36:53

start working, and I spent a month finding

36:55

every conceivable excuse to avoid it. Then I

36:57

got to the point where I'm like, okay,

36:59

man, this is getting really close. I

37:02

had a long stretch of time. You had

37:04

five hours if I wanted to work. I

37:07

told myself, okay, all you got to do is write

37:10

one line. Of course,

37:12

if you sit down, you will write one line. That's

37:14

not even up for, but I haven't done it in

37:16

the previous month, so do it now. My

37:19

thing was like, and it is

37:21

a nice knife on the table, and if

37:23

you don't get it done in five hours,

37:25

you need to chop off your pinky. Now,

37:27

granted, I'm a slightly psychotic and I adolged

37:29

that, but I was like, let's

37:31

be real about this. If

37:34

you say that you want it and it's

37:36

100% success rate if you apply yourself, there's

37:38

no way you're not going to write a

37:40

line, let's take this a

37:42

little seriously. To me,

37:44

it's like, yeah, I mean, how

37:47

do you go on as a human being?

37:49

How do you go on waking up in

37:51

the morning and looking at yourself in the

37:53

mirror if you don't live up to the

37:55

values that supposedly your whole life is based

37:57

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38:30

I think that's a really interesting question

38:33

to ask because how do people do that?

38:35

We know that people have done the bad

38:37

thing, then they've gone back and they've reintegrated

38:39

and they've lived what seemed to be pretty

38:41

normal lives. So what strategies do they use

38:43

to tell themselves that? Number one is dehumanization,

38:45

right? You say that the people to whom

38:47

you did that weren't really people in the

38:50

way that you are in some basic and

38:52

fundamental way. They belong to an out group,

38:54

they worship the wrong God. Maybe

38:56

you don't have a baseline sense that other people are

38:58

human in the way that you are, certainly

39:00

possible for long stretches of history. The

39:04

actions that these people have engaged in have made

39:07

them beyond the pale, their blood is polluted. If

39:10

it's kids, then well, when they grow up, they would have done

39:12

it to us. I think that to me, I

39:15

find that one really affecting

39:17

and believable because of the

39:19

Neolithic, right? There's tons of

39:21

skeletal evidence of mass murder and massacres

39:23

from especially the European Neolithic in this

39:26

one specific stage, right around 5,000 BC.

39:30

Just tons of these mass graves and

39:32

mass killing sites that include children, right?

39:34

So children were obviously killed along with

39:36

the adults. I have to think

39:38

that on some level, the logic is, well, if we

39:40

let them live, if we let them grow up, they're

39:42

going to come right back and do the same thing

39:45

to us. You

39:47

have built into this, this sense that

39:49

the violence is a generational thing and

39:51

that you're forestalling future violence by doing

39:53

a terrible thing now. I

39:55

think these are kind of the basic strategies that

39:58

people use to sell themselves on this. these

40:00

people can't be people in the way that I

40:02

am because then I would have to face the

40:04

idea that I've done something unforgivable. Not

40:07

to derail too much the point

40:09

because I know I'm just norting out on

40:11

a side thing. Like what do you think

40:13

it was happening so much around that time

40:15

in the Neolithic? It was like a population

40:18

pressure thing or what was happening? So there's

40:21

a lot of theories. It shows up a

40:23

lot in this one Neolithic culture called the

40:25

LBK, the linear bandkeramek or linear pottery culture.

40:28

And it basically seems to be that these

40:30

people expanded and expanded. They had a very

40:33

specific kind of environment that they liked. These

40:35

really specific kinds of patches of soil. And

40:38

that once they had filled all of the

40:40

easy ones up, they started to compete with

40:42

one another. So that even

40:44

though these people who were spread over a

40:46

really wide stretch of Europe, they shared basically

40:49

the same material culture. They

40:51

didn't bury their dead knee differently. It

40:54

was war within a defined

40:56

cultural grouping. So probably clans that

40:58

didn't like each other, that were

41:00

engaged in some kind of eliminationist

41:02

conflict. That's what it seems to

41:04

be. So that makes it even

41:07

more striking is that these people

41:09

were exactly like each other. Yeah,

41:11

of course. That part is always

41:14

funny how the humanization can

41:16

happen at any level. It can happen between

41:18

groups that appear obviously very different, but then

41:20

it appears to be like, I

41:23

love it when anytime I go back

41:25

to Italy and I see the most

41:28

heated rivalries between towns that gone for

41:30

hundreds of years. And then you

41:32

look at the map and you're like, you guys

41:34

are like 10 miles from the planet. It's like, how do you

41:36

even come on? You are the same. And

41:45

this seems to be true

41:48

anthropologically. There's a good anthropological

41:50

literature on this that people

41:52

define themselves in relation to

41:54

other groups of people. And this

41:57

seems to be pretty universally true so far as we

41:59

can tell. human experience that what makes us

42:01

who we are is not a positive statement, it's

42:03

a negative statement that I'm not that thing. And

42:06

so this is what makes it extra

42:08

dangerous and why we have to be extra

42:10

on our guard against it is that it

42:13

seems to be such a deeply

42:15

rooted human tendency and we know

42:17

what the outcomes are if

42:19

we go down that road. Oh yeah,

42:22

I mean it even happens so

42:24

without even going the 10 miles

42:26

away if you look at most

42:28

struggles for power in terms of

42:30

inheritance is usually brother killing brother.

42:33

Yeah, brother killing brother, not metaphorically

42:35

not kind of brother. You're like

42:38

you share your DNA to a crazy

42:40

level with this person, but hey, they

42:42

are not me. And that's all that

42:44

matters. And that's why

42:46

it's why Thanksgiving and Christmas are

42:48

the most violent days of the

42:51

year in the United States, right?

42:53

It's because it's families fighting families.

42:55

Those are the disputes. And when

42:57

you aggregate that over

42:59

a lot, like the dynamics aren't that

43:01

different in, I

43:04

mean, groups fight over much the same

43:06

things that people fight over. It's

43:08

just the consequences are rather more devastating.

43:11

But I think one of the, sorry,

43:13

was like which part of Europe In

43:16

the in the analytic. Oh, this was

43:18

this is mostly central Europe. So The

43:20

LBK extends from France in the West

43:22

all the way to the Carpathians in the

43:24

East, but it's fairly thin on the

43:26

ground. They Like these really specific patches

43:28

of land. They Like these very specific

43:30

circumstances And timber long houses. Like enormous

43:32

timber long houses. They had a very

43:34

restricted regime of crops and domesticated animals

43:36

that they liked. And It's like once

43:38

they found that there were no more

43:40

spots like that to go, they just

43:42

ate each other alive, almost literally, like

43:44

there's cases of cannibalism involved. Oh, yeah,

43:46

no, that's always the funny part where it's

43:48

like you look at the culture. And

43:50

That's why it's always fun when people

43:52

generalize like you look at the culture,

43:54

they're like, they were so peaceful is

43:56

like, yeah, they were from this century

43:58

to that side. The to report a

44:01

sport about one more same thirty when suddenly

44:03

they were too many people for the available

44:05

land. And now they are eighteen

44:07

each other and they're not quite be

44:09

bar at yeah and it's it's it's

44:11

it's way we would all like. A

44:13

good we would have the i mean the basic

44:16

thing and we should. We should probably wind at

44:18

the start winding down but it's like a we

44:20

would all like the believe the zit. On some

44:22

level we would be the ones to say no

44:24

we won't participate but. The circumstances

44:26

in which we find ourselves

44:28

are largely beyond our control.

44:30

And the the the kind of

44:32

the structural conditions were placed in

44:34

are the product of choices made

44:36

beyond us like aggregates of choices

44:39

and the so like were but

44:41

where we still retain our individual

44:43

choices in the moment or a

44:45

it's the decisions and did not

44:47

participate in that and it. But

44:49

is there any way from your

44:51

perspective. The. To. Lessen.

44:53

The risk of that like a like on

44:56

a on a broad social level? What do

44:58

you see? Any solutions any Any way of

45:00

making us all feel better about this or

45:02

or increasing our chances? I think burrow the

45:04

social level? Good luck because again it's outside

45:06

of your control. But I think when an

45:08

individual level in a big way. Because.

45:11

I think the more even daily

45:13

life in what seemed like trivial

45:15

choices you. Decide

45:17

to leave according to a certain code of

45:19

conduct and then you live up to eat

45:21

that. When you mess up my Billie you

45:23

go back and fix it because he relies

45:25

noughties is not I wanna leave but you

45:28

are very consistent with it. I think is

45:30

like a muscle the right. And I don't

45:32

have to tell you about lifting weights as

45:34

you're not is like you leave. To leave.

45:36

To leave to get stronger is like anything

45:38

you know. Nobody's just Schwartzenegger. They they start

45:40

bad. You know it's a process and I

45:42

think is the same thing with making this

45:45

kind of choice as you can. White Sousa.

45:47

And stress Some pirated and I choose not

45:49

to yell at my kids who are screaming

45:51

and dropping meal on the floor. and when

45:54

you do with get that the raising your

45:56

voice you go like. This.

45:58

Us does not. Why wanna be? And so

46:00

you apologize and you figure out you're going to

46:02

do better the next time. And you really make

46:04

it the point that you don't beat yourself up.

46:07

And they're like, okay, this is an honest mistake,

46:09

but I don't want to be this guy who

46:11

makes apologies for my crappy behavior. So I

46:14

apologize today, but that also means I'm trying

46:16

really damn hard not to do it tomorrow.

46:19

And I think the more you do it

46:21

and the more you successfully negotiate that and

46:23

see yourself being able to leave out your

46:25

values, the more it builds

46:27

a certain self-esteem of like, oh, this is who

46:29

I really am. This is not just who I

46:32

say I am. This is what I really am.

46:35

And I think you build that enough,

46:37

it become like you have the veil

46:39

of that internal muscle that in a

46:41

hard pressure situation will not make you

46:44

cross the line. So

46:46

I think individually definitely can be done.

46:49

At a social level, I don't think

46:51

there's any way to just, let's all

46:53

go through the seven week course on

46:55

becoming a better human being. I don't

46:57

think he wants that way. How

47:00

to not participate in a genocide, a mandatory

47:02

six week course that everybody takes in high

47:04

school. I was thinking

47:06

why he wants that way. I

47:09

think you're absolutely right, but this is one

47:11

of the values of history as

47:14

a thing is to tell us that

47:16

we're not that different from these people in the past. We're

47:19

not that different from the Hamburg police

47:21

officers. We're not that different from the

47:23

farmers who joined Caesar's legions or the

47:25

Assyrians who went to Elam and came

47:27

back with some slaves to sell. We

47:31

are all human in pretty much the same way.

47:33

We're all subject to the pressures of our societies

47:35

and the pressures of leaders who are above us

47:37

in the social spectrum. But

47:41

to the extent that there is a solution

47:43

for that, it's taking accountability for our own

47:45

actions as a habit of mind. I

47:48

think flexing that muscle is just, I think that's such a

47:50

good way to put it. Because if

47:52

you don't practice doing it, it's

47:54

like, I mean, you've done martial

47:56

arts for a long time. If you don't practice

47:58

what you're going to do when... somebody's trying to hit

48:00

you, you're not gonna be able to do it when

48:02

the time comes. Like you have to... You

48:05

don't learn under pressure where suddenly the first time

48:07

you test it is under insane pressure. No, that's

48:09

not hard. You keep up that 10,000 times under

48:13

much more mellow situations, and then you have

48:15

a chance to pull it off in. And

48:18

I think, I guess, again, if we wanna go

48:20

for not the pressure reader at the end about,

48:23

I think the part is so good at it, okay? I

48:26

think if you wanna draw inspiration is

48:28

the fact that you do run into

48:30

plenty of episodes in history where people,

48:32

individuals, choose to make, choose

48:35

to go down a path that's not what

48:38

everybody's doing and that we, from the outside

48:40

today, would look back and go like, damn,

48:42

that was a hero right there. And

48:45

there's variety, because so often in history we

48:47

are talking about big forces that is very

48:49

easy to forget the individual. And

48:52

I love those stories where you see

48:54

people coming from the same culture, the

48:56

same background, the same everything, and they

48:58

choose to go complete. One of my

49:00

favorites I use all the time, like

49:02

when Cortes arrive

49:05

in Mexico, and there are

49:07

these Spaniards who are shipwrecked there before him,

49:09

and most of them have died by then.

49:11

There's only two guys left, and they have

49:13

been there for eight years. They

49:16

ended up in two different Maya village, and

49:18

so the Cortes find the first one, this

49:20

guy by the name of Geronimo de Aguilar.

49:23

And Aguilar is like, ah, thank you, I prayed

49:25

all these years that I would be found, and

49:27

now I can go back to Spain and all

49:29

of that, but we should go to my friend

49:31

Gonzalo, he lives, I haven't seen him in a

49:33

bit, but I know he still lives in this

49:36

village close by. And they

49:38

go see this guy Gonzalo Guerrero, and

49:41

the guy is covered in tribal tattoos from

49:43

head to toe. He's married to a Maya

49:45

woman, he has three kids, and he's like,

49:48

yeah, you guys say hello to Spain for me,

49:50

but I'm good here, you know? I'm like, and

49:53

so here's like two Spaniards coming

49:55

from the same cultural background, they

49:58

are not the same individual, they make different. choices.

50:00

And I think is like, in

50:03

this case, there's not necessarily a moral

50:05

dimension to it. Whereas some of the

50:07

specific example we are talking about that

50:09

is, but it's the same process. Like

50:11

as individuals, you are not bound by

50:13

the forces of society. The forces of

50:15

society shape you, they influence you, or

50:18

sure, undoubtedly, but

50:20

you still have agency. Like I think, like,

50:23

I tend to resist when agencies swept

50:25

under the rug under this big view

50:27

of history. It's like, yeah,

50:30

that's all true. But they're

50:32

still breathing through. There's still stuff that you

50:34

can do on an individual level. And again,

50:36

the more you cultivate it in daily life,

50:38

the easier it's going to be to have

50:40

it under extremely

50:42

harsh circumstances. This

50:44

is a really good reminder of me because

50:46

I, for me, because I spend so much

50:48

time thinking about big historical forces and structural

50:51

forces. And for me,

50:53

it's very easy in the way that I

50:55

look at and understand history for individuals to

50:57

disappear and for agency to disappear. And

51:00

it's really good to concretize that

51:02

and to think in terms of this specific

51:04

kind of case that, oh, no, people do

51:06

have choices. People do make choices, and they

51:08

can make better choices when, than the ones

51:11

that they often do. They can make choices

51:13

that don't lead us to these horrible places.

51:16

That's in fact, one of the things I

51:18

love to do sometime, not every time, but

51:20

I tend to do it fairly often with

51:22

history on fire with the stories I pick.

51:25

I'll go into the context. I'll go

51:27

big into the historical context,

51:29

but then I'll try to narrow

51:31

in on like individuals and see

51:33

how the individuals still matter and

51:35

make important choices and all that.

51:38

Because that's when, to me, the history, of

51:41

course, I love the big picture history is

51:43

essential. And at the same

51:45

time, I love to like zoom big

51:47

out and then just narrow in on

51:49

this one particular story of how that

51:52

person, given all those constraints,

51:54

given the circumstances, ended up

51:56

to choose whatever they did.

51:59

And now I've like, Oh, that's exciting.

52:01

What would I have done in this place?

52:03

I would have been this guy, I would

52:05

have been the other guy where and, and

52:07

to me, it always keeps it fresh, because

52:09

it's like, okay, we're not just slaves to

52:11

historical circumstances, we're of course shaped by them,

52:14

but we still have agency, which

52:16

is, I guess, I'm

52:19

like with your reader, is that all

52:21

that makes you happy at the end?

52:23

Because you're like, okay, you know, some

52:25

cards to play. Yeah, that's and I

52:28

mean, on that note, I think we

52:30

need both of those to understand history, right? We need

52:32

we need to be able to understand what

52:35

the forces are that are acting on us

52:37

that shape the range of choices that we

52:39

think we can make that shape the possibilities

52:41

that are available to us. But then we

52:43

do have to understand the ways in which

52:45

people decide for themselves that we all have

52:47

that in us as much as we might

52:49

want to claim in some circumstances that we

52:51

don't the choice is still there. Absolutely. So

52:54

thank you so much for doing this. This was

52:56

so fascinating. What a great suggestion. I'm so glad

52:58

we got to finally chat. It's been awesome. I've loved

53:00

your show for a long time. It's really great to

53:03

get to do this. Yeah, I

53:05

wanted to podcast with you. And then like,

53:07

you know, a few days ago, I saw that

53:09

sub second, I was like, Oh, this is perfect.

53:11

It's exactly the stuff I love. I love the

53:14

way you but it's exactly what I think

53:16

about is exactly sounds like Oh, this is we

53:19

are on the same page here. Perfect. Well, we're

53:21

gonna have to do it again. This was a

53:23

fantastic conversation. I am stoked. Thank

53:25

you so much. Thank you so much. Hey,

53:30

Prime members, you can listen to Tides of

53:32

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so much for joining me today. Be sure

53:55

and hit me up if you'd like to

53:57

chat about anything we've talked about on ties

53:59

or something you'd like to see you can

54:02

find me on Twitter at Patrick underscore Wyman

54:04

or on Facebook at Patrick Wyman MMA or

54:06

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54:08

on other topics at PatrickWyman.substack.com. Tides of History

54:10

is written and narrated by me Patrick Wyman.

54:13

The sound engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Tides

54:15

of History is produced by Morgan Jaffee.

54:18

From Wondery, the executive producers are Jenny

54:20

Lower Beckman and Moshe Lewy. Yo

54:31

Trey. Yeah, Kev. What's up, man? I was

54:33

just thinking what would have happened if Drew

54:35

Brees didn't fail his physical with the Dolphins

54:37

and ended up playing under Nick Saban in

54:39

Miami. There's a good shot the Finns establish

54:41

a dynasty. Tom Brady and Bill Belichick probably

54:43

don't become goats and Tuscaloosa doesn't become the

54:45

center of the college football universe. Hey,

54:49

I'm Trey Wingo and I'm Kevin Frazier.

54:51

We're teaming up on a new weekly

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