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This is Tim Staton with Tim Stating the Obvious, what is this podcast about?

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It's simple, you are entitled to great leadership everywhere you go, whether it's to church,

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whether it's to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.

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And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them into

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everyday relatable and usable advice. And a quick disclaimer, this show, process, or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer

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or otherwise, does not necessarily constitute and imply the endorsement of anyone that I employed by or favors them in representation.

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The views are expressed here in my show are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or reflect those of any employer.

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Welcome back. Russell, and thank you for coming back to this episode.

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And as we dive into the second one. Yeah, well, it's great to be back, Tim.

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And I have one request before we get too far into it. There was something that I wanted to revise that I said in our last episode.

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Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead.

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Yeah. So one of the things I mentioned, you asked me what was like one of the most important

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characteristics of a leader. And I said, risk taking, ability to take risks, or the flip side is to have courage.

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And on reflection, I think the most important thing for a leader to have is a vision, you've

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got to have a sense of where you want to go, either yourself individually, or your organization

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or community. And within that vision, you need to have the ability to take risks or the to have courage.

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So if I could just correct that there. No, that's great.

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No, that's awesome. I think vision is incredibly important.

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You got to know where you're going to go, right? There you go.

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Okay. So people realize vision is not easy, right?

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And knowing where you want to go, knowing where you want to go is not an easy thing

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to do. So that's what makes leaders. No, absolutely.

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So getting into this episode.

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So this episode, I know we had keyed up last episode with the three topics that we're going

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to be talking about. And this one, we're really going to be talking about fear and courage.

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So with that one, I'm just going to turn it over to you and really interested in what

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you have to say as you talked about risk and taking courage, talked about the vision and

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taking the risk and going into courage. So what really kind of holds us back from being able to face that fear and have that

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courage? Yeah.

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I mean, that's, that's a key question. And to be clear, you know, as a leader, when you stand for something, even if you're standing

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for like motherhood and apple pie, there's somebody out there who's going to disagree

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with you. There's somebody out there who's going to say no and criticize you and attack you for

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it. And that's what I mean, you know, as a leader, you're anytime you stand for something, they're

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going to be people that oppose you and you need to be able to, to withstand that.

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And then your question goes, what is it that stops us from standing that?

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What is it that, that, you know, prevents us from moving forward or prevents us from

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taking that stand, you know, or be more blunt about it?

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What has us retreat from leadership?

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It's fear. And, and the key thing that I've noticed in my practice is, you know, people, they have

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the sensation in their bodies that they're afraid, but we really need to look at what

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it is that we're afraid of.

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What is the real risk that we're facing?

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And when you dig down, okay, when you dig down and really look at what we're afraid

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of, we're afraid of failure, of looking like a fool, of being wrong, of being changed.

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You got to go out there with your vision and somebody may come back with a better idea

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or a different way of looking at it.

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We're afraid of being dominated or of losing, right?

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We're afraid of being embarrassed or ashamed.

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But if you look at all those things, you know, failure, being wrong, being changed, all those

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things, what's really at the base of our fear is feeling uncomfortable feelings, right?

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So when you fail, you can feel miserable about yourself and you have this bad feeling, but

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that's what we're afraid of is feeling an uncomfortable or an unpleasant feeling, right?

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So to be clear here, the feeling's real.

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You're going to feel that way, right?

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But the question you want to ask yourself is, what I want to stand for, is it more important

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than feeling uncomfortable or feeling unpleasant feelings?

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Ultimately, yeah, ultimately what we're afraid of is feeling uncomfortable fear, pains, I'm

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sorry, uncomfortable feelings.

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No, and that's interesting that you bring that up because as you were talking and you

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were listing out all the byproducts, right, of what people are afraid of and you went

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through, it's really the uncomfortable feelings.

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And one aspect that really kind of jumped out at me was the fear of having your opinion

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changed or being changed.

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How often do you feel that that one is probably more prevalent or which one of those is the

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most prevalent issue or underlying fear, besides the uncomfortable feelings part, which

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one is probably the most prevalent that you see?

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You know, it so varies by individual.

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It so varies by individual. Fear of failure I'd probably put close to the top.

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People are worried that if they fail, their social reputation will be damaged, their status

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among their family or their friends will be damaged, and they will feel bad about themselves,

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right? So that's probably the most common one.

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But I want to be clear, just something you said, and you said aside from uncomfortable

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feelings, all of these things that I listed result in uncomfortable feelings.

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So at the base of it, it's the uncomfortable feeling that we're trying to avoid.

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It's the painful feeling that we're trying to avoid.

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Kind of going into a growth mindset, you know, with dealing with uncomfortable feelings,

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you say failure was at the top.

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Do you find that people with a growth mindset are still susceptible to all these uncomfortable

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feelings or people who have a more stronger growth mindset are able to overcome these

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uncomfortable feelings better? Yeah, that's a good question.

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First of all, you don't overcome uncomfortable feelings.

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They're there. They're part of life.

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Here's the deal. With a growth mindset, people who have growth mindset or even people who have confidence,

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what they're willing to do is they're willing to risk the likelihood of feeling uncomfortable

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in order to pursue their vision, pursue what it is they want to accomplish.

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So that's the distinction.

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And actually, there's a really good way to put it.

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I like to say, we have a choice in life.

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We have a choice in life to play the game of life or whatever game we're playing, right?

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The game of making a difference in the world as a leader or a difference in your community.

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We have that choice of either playing that game not to lose or to play the game to win,

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right? Play the game not to lose or play the game to win.

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And what I mean by playing not to lose is to play a really small game where we don't

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risk painful feelings, right?

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So if you want to play a game of not to lose, you withdraw from leadership.

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You withdraw, you go back on your couch and sit and watch Netflix, right?

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If you're not challenging yourself, you're playing not to lose because you don't want

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to risk having those uncomfortable feelings.

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Playing to win, playing big means that you're going to go for something and you're risking

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the likelihood, right?

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You can't go after anything big and not fail or not be rejected or not have setbacks.

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That's just part of the story. So you're going to play big at the risk of feeling uncomfortable.

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You know you will feel uncomfortable if you go after something big, right?

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So it's the willingness to accept that risk, the willingness to live with failure or rejection

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or being losing in a conflict.

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Yeah. No, that's powerful right there.

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Especially I love how you say playing not to lose because I can see how often people

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play it safe. And then when you play it safe, you typically don't come out on top.

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Especially if you watch sports, those teams that kind of play it safe because they don't

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want to lose, they end up losing anyway.

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And then those that either go big or go home usually go big or they go home.

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And I think of the New York Giants or the Yankees in that aspect, either they're really

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good or they're not. Yeah.

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Well, two things. One, you might go big and end up going home, right?

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You might lose by going big. There's just no guarantee that you're going to win.

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But I want to bring it even back to our daily lives, right?

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You're sitting in a meeting with a bunch of big execs all around you and you've got a

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question and you don't raise your hand because you don't want to look like a fool.

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It might be a dumb question. You're playing not to lose.

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You're playing not to lose when you don't raise your hand, right?

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So it's even that quotidian, it's that small an issue where you're playing not to lose

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in life. Really what I would challenge any of the listeners is to look around in their lives.

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Where is it that they're not raising their hand?

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Where is it they're playing not to lose or they're playing to go home instead of to win?

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And I will guarantee you that all of us at some level are playing not to lose for when

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the stakes get high enough, we're playing not to lose.

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And the value of this distinction is that you can see when you're playing not to lose

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versus playing to win, right?

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And then you can put yourself at choice.

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So this is really important. You can put yourself at choice.

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I can say, Russell, are you going to play this particular situation, this particular

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game, this particular event in your life?

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Are you going to play it not to lose or are you going to play to win?

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You put yourself at choice and you might say, you know, stakes are too high.

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I'm going home. I'm going to play not to lose.

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But other times you say, you know what? This is worth it.

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I will risk feeling uncomfortable. I will bust through my fear and play the big game here.

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Well, what I'd like to do, you know, for the listeners is use this distinction in your

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own lives so that you step into your fear.

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Okay. Ask, you know, put yourself at choice.

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Am I going to do this, whatever is before me, this challenge, am I going to do it not

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to lose or am I going to do it to win?

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And then the other thing is, just to come back to what you said earlier, the fear that

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you face, I mean, you might get axed, like you say, you might get fired, but be careful

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because most of the fears that we face are fears of being uncomfortable.

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That's your fear. Your fear of being uncomfortable.

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That's what stops us. And, you know, fear is a funny thing because we all have it.

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Every one of us has it. Any time you reach the outer limits of your comfort zone, you're going to get afraid.

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And that's okay. That's part of being human, right?

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The people that don't have fear, you know, they're usually the sociopaths.

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They're the people you don't really want to hang around with.

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A lot of my clients, the way they manage fear is they say, well, I'll wait until it

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goes away. You know what?

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It never goes away. If you wait for it to go away, or I have a classic example.

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I had a client once who was seeing me, who was working with me as a coach, was seeing

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her therapist, right? And she was seeing some kind of shaman or tarot card reader.

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I don't know. She was seeing three different people, two different things, and she had a major decision

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in her life. She had a major decision where when she made that decision, a lot of people were going

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to be upset with her. Right?

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It was, you know, quite frankly, whether to run for governor of a state or not.

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Okay? And she didn't want to be the governor.

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She wanted to do something else, but she had all these expectations, all these hopes were

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being placed on her.

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And I said to her, what do you want from the coach?

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What do you want from your therapist? What do you want from your shaman, right?

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And she said, well, I want to figure out what to do.

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And I said, you know what to do.

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you're looking from all of us is you want us to give you a magic pill to make the fear

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go away. And you know what?

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It's not going to go away. You're just going to have to do what you want to do.

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And she eventually did it. She pulled the plug, right?

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And people got upset at her. She said it was the hardest thing she ever did in her life.

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And she's so glad she did it. Right.

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But the point I was making there is that she had hired all of us to get rid of her fear

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and it's not going to go away. She just has to step through it.

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Yeah. No, I fully, fully hear you on that one.

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I could think of several times where I've been in situations and fear never goes away.

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The nervousness I think associated with fear kind of diminishes a little bit.

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But that fear in itself, in the back of your mind, that never goes away.

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So how do we deal with it? So like, I know you mentioned, you know, that this one client that you had, she hired all

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these people to help her kind of make a decision and validate and make her fear go away.

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But how do you, how do we deal with fear so that way we can step through it and work through

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it? Yeah.

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I mean, that's the, that's the $64,000 question, isn't it?

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Well, one is to recognize that as part of being human, that anytime you put yourself

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at a challenge, there's going to be fear.

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I mean, there's going to be excitement and, and, and, and commitment and inspiration,

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all kinds of things wrapped into it. And there's going to be fear, right?

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Anytime you're a leader, you're going to be criticized, you're going to be, you're going

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to be judged. And if you, and if you're afraid of that, fine, that's part of it, but how do you step

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through it? Well, the first thing is one to distinguish it, ask yourself, what is it you're really

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afraid of? And, and as I said, most of the time, it's uncomfortable feelings.

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It can also be things like fear of losing your job, you know, fear of, of physical injury.

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If the challenge you're, you're doing is like jumping out of airplanes or climbing cliffs,

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you know, or something like that, there's, there's certainly those kinds of, those type

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of realistic, authentic fears, right, of, of physical, physical harm or, or financial

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or, or, or career status, but really identify what's the fear.

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Our tendency, when we're afraid to do something is to catastrophize, is to blow up the risks,

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right? If I pick up the phone and ask this woman out for a date and she says, no, right, no

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one's going to like me again. We take it really personally.

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We make that no mean that I'm not lovable or I'm, I'm not worthy of having a partner.

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We catastrophize, we exaggerate the risk.

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So one thing you want to do is really ground your risk, ground that risk in reality.

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What is it that I have to lose here?

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Two, right, is, you know, put your, put yourself at choice.

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Is what I'm fighting for more important than, than, than what I'm risking?

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Three is to realize, you know, the fear doesn't go away.

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What we want to build is your courage.

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So courage is the ability to step through the fear, to not be stopped by your fear.

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And courage is like a muscle. You got to practice.

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The more you practice, the more you develop the courage, the easier it is to step through

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that fear. And I just want to say something on, about courage.

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So courage, we don't hear much of that in the culture these days.

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It's kind of curious to me.

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The ancient Greeks saw courage as the foundational virtue.

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But without courage, you couldn't have, you couldn't exercise any of the other virtues

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because they all depended on courage.

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So for a leader, one of the virtues to develop in themselves is this courage, the ability

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to step through your fear. That's a really great point because you, because you mentioned that we have, we tend to catastrophize

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things, right? When we're dealing with our uncomfortable feelings.

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What about the, our ability to self eliminate before we even start because of a fear?

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So I know in the last episode, we talked about the guy who was afraid of rejection.

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So we decided to get rejected a whole bunch of times and then found out like, it wasn't

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that bad. Catastrophizing phase that people go through when they deal with this.

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What are some of the other tendencies that people tend to do?

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Because I kind of want people as they listen to this, kind of think about, well, what boat

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do I fit in?

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So that way, if I do decide to get a leadership coach, I can at least go, Hey, you know what?

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I heard this talk and I think I may be, you know, doing this.

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And this is kind of like a boat I fall in. Or maybe even recognize a behavior that they may not know exists and go, Hey, you know

16:53

what? I could use some coaching on this.

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Nice. Nice.

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So, so catastrophizing is one is what we call a cognitive distortion.

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It's where we kind of warp reality in service of a concern, a concern we have.

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So the concern we have here is we're afraid.

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And the way to justify our fear is to exaggerate the risks, right?

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If I call this woman up, a meteor is going to take out the planet, right?

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That's an example of an extreme catastrophizing, extreme catastrophizing.

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So cognitive distortions, right?

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I believe, I believe there's a Wikipedia page of cognitive distortions.

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They've got two or 300 listed there, but there, there are a handful of really common ones

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that we all do at some level.

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Catastrophication, catastrophification is, is one of them, right?

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Another one, this is one that really stops us, is mind reading.

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Thinking we know what somebody else is thinking, right?

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Thinking we know how somebody else is going to react to us when we do something, right?

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We barely know ourselves. We definitely don't know our neighbors, even people you've been married to for years.

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Mind reading is a way of stopping ourselves.

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So often what we do is we project our, our fears of being judged into somebody else,

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right? And so that we don't do what we want to do because we think this other person is going

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to judge us as we would judge them, right?

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So mind reading is a, is a, is a, is a common and very debilitating cognitive distortion.

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Another one is, is it's called the generative fallacy, is we discount something we say,

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we hear because the person who said it, okay?

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I mean, the real common thing is what happened with Claudine Gay.

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A lot of, a lot of her defenders were discounting charges of plagiarism because they came from

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the right. They said, it's not true because look who's saying this.

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It's like if Adolf Hitler told you to brush your teeth twice a day, you can say, I'm not

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going to do it because Hitler said it.

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That's a generative fallacy, right?

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Another cognitive distortion. You want to look at the evidence, not who's presenting the evidence.

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How many more do you want to go? Like I said, there are many, many out there.

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I would encourage people to go look at the Wikipedia page on cognitive distortions and

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notice what is it in you?

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What are the cognitive distortions that you use that keep you stuck, that keep you from

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moving forward, that keep you from playing, keep you playing small, right?

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Cause I don't, how often do you encounter a client who doesn't realize they're these

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behaviors every day?

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Same clients.

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It's funny how transparent our reasoning is to ourselves.

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Now I'll give you an example.

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So I'm working with a client, you know, in the tech industry, high performing, moving

19:59

up in his industry, he's in his fifties and he wants to change jobs, he wants to change

20:07

careers and he's stuck. So he hired me.

20:11

One of the things he said is, I'd really like to consider this particular direction, right?

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But it'll take me six months of research to get there and I don't have six months.

20:22

And so I asked him, where did the six months come from?

20:24

Why is it one month or why isn't it 12 months?

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He says, oh, it's just a guess. And I said, what's the benefit to you and what way does six, guessing six months serve

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you? And he sits and he thinks about it.

20:36

He says, well, if it's that, if it's six months, then I don't have to do it.

20:42

You get that, if it's six months, it's too much and therefore I don't have to do it.

20:46

So he made a guess. He had no data.

20:49

He just made a guess. But the purpose of that guess was to keep him stuck, keep him in the status quo.

20:54

In other words, to play, not to lose.

20:56

And that's a great point, because oftentimes there is actually a time management.

21:02

It's a specific theory that says whatever time that you say it's going to take to do

21:07

something, that's usually how much time it ends up taking to do it.

21:10

So if you say this is going to take me two hours to do, well, it's usually going to take

21:13

you two hours to do. But if you take that same task, you say it's going to take me 20

21:16

minutes. It may take you 20 minutes. It may take you 30 minutes, but it's definitely not going to take you two hours.

21:20

As that fallacy that you brought up of, well, if it's if I set a date too far off and I

21:25

tell myself I don't have time to do it, I'm not going to get to do it.

21:27

So I'm automatically limiting myself in my leadership and that ability.

21:31

So I think that's a very interesting point that you brought up.

21:34

Yeah, we we create our world and we often create our world to keep us stuck and we keep

21:40

ourselves stuck because it's comfortable, it's safe in there.

21:43

We don't have to step beyond our comfort zone.

21:46

We don't have to step beyond our familiar. It's a good part. You asked me, you know, how often do I run into people?

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I run into people all the time. I notice myself doing it.

21:55

We create a world to keep us comfortable.

21:58

And leadership is not about comfort. No, absolutely. And I often say, if you don't like the reality you're living in, you need

22:04

to create the one that you would rather live in, because our actions will ultimately

22:08

dictate that reality. There are some things out of our control, but ultimately we have a big part in how we

22:13

view our world and how we play it around us. And you really hit the head on that with what you just explained, with how you, you

22:21

know, interact with your clients and what they come in every single day on.

22:24

So one last question that I have about this is when you talked about courage and I

22:30

agree with you, we don't talk about courage as much in society these days.

22:35

So how would you offer up that we develop a pattern so we can increase courage?

22:42

Like what is what is something that we can do to increase courage daily or weekly?

22:46

Or what is something that we can do to go, you know what, I'm going to develop courage by

22:50

doing X, Y and Z because I realize I'm not that great at it.

22:53

That's exactly the way you do it. I like to say you go as far as you possibly can and then take one more step.

22:59

And usually when you take that one more step, nothing happens.

23:02

And the next time you need to go that distance, then the fear starts, the fear of that

23:08

distance starts diminishing. But okay, I'll say, okay, you go that one more step

23:13

and now take the other step and then the fear comes back.

23:16

So I misspoke a little bit when I say

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the fear never goes away. The fear goes away if you keep doing the same thing

23:22

over and over again, you get desensitized,

23:25

you realize that the risk isn't as bad as you thought

23:28

or the rewards are worth the risk.

23:31

But the fact is that as a leader, a leader in your own life or leader in your community

23:37

or in your organization, you're always going to be challenging yourself.

23:41

You're always going to be going further. And that's what I mean when the risk doesn't go,

23:44

the fear doesn't go away because you're always challenging yourself.

23:47

You're always stepping beyond your comfort zone.

23:50

No, that's a great point. And so, so go one step.

23:53

So go as far as you can to take another step

23:56

in practicing your courage. I think that's a great analogy on how to do that.

24:00

And really that's all it is. That's all it is.

24:02

Now it also helps to have tools.

24:05

You can be skillful or unskillful

24:08

in whatever you're doing.

24:10

And if you're skillful about it, it's easier to take that additional step.

24:14

So that's again, something that helps working with a coach

24:18

is you develop these tools,

24:21

you develop the skillfulness that enables you to do what you didn't think you could do.

24:27

So that helps support your courage,

24:30

supports your confidence. Right, and so one tool would be

24:34

hiring a leadership coach like yourself. So why don't you tell everybody real quick,

24:38

because I know I'm gonna put the links down below

24:40

and in the description, in the comments of this podcast episode.

24:44

But why don't you tell us and everyone out there how they can reach out to you

24:48

if they feel like you're a great fit for them.

24:51

Super, thank you. So I do have a website.

24:53

It's russellheath.net.

24:56

Two S's, two L's in Russell. Or just Google Russell Heath coach

25:00

and I will pop up.

25:03

And I really enjoy working with leaders, people who wanna make a difference,

25:06

either in their own lives or in their communities

25:09

or in their organizations. And my goal in working with you

25:16

is what I say, develop your personal mastery,

25:19

your ability to face any situation,

25:22

staying centered, staying calm

25:24

and bringing people along with you. That's key with leadership is bringing people with you.

25:29

Too many people want it their own way

25:31

and they are divisive as opposed to inclusive.

25:34

So if that's you, if that's what you wanna do

25:37

is make a difference in your own life, your community, your organizations, let's talk.

25:41

Absolutely. And Russell, I've had a great time talking with you today

25:45

and I look forward to our next episode.

25:48

So what are we gonna be talking about in our next episode?

25:51

All right, so in the next episode, our feelings.

25:54

All right, this is funny because we are an emotional,

25:58

we are emotional creatures. We like to think we're rational,

26:01

but no, we're emotional creatures.

26:03

And in too many situations, particularly

26:06

in the corporate world, we tend to ignore the feelings

26:09

and we do so at our risk.

26:12

And so I wanna talk about how we manage

26:14

and live with feelings and how we leverage them

26:17

both so that we're better leaders, but that we live a more enriched life, right?

26:21

It's our feelings that make life worth living.

26:24

So let's learn how to manage or work with our feelings

26:27

in such a way that they work for us and not against us.

26:30

So it's a big, I mean, this is an endless topic,

26:34

but it's a very important one. No, absolutely.

26:36

And so I think it's very interesting on how you set this up.

26:39

So we talked about, we set the stage

26:41

with the first episode, this episode,

26:44

we talked about dealing with uncomfortable feelings

26:46

and being comfortable being uncomfortable

26:52

and how to do that. And you said you develop courage

26:54

to overcome the risks that you're taking and overcome your fear.

26:57

And in the next episode, we're gonna be talking

26:59

about feelings again and how to deal with them.

27:02

I think that's really awesome on how you set that up.

27:04

So I really appreciate it. And thanks for stopping by on this episode.

27:08

And I look forward to seeing on the next one. Well, thank you, Tim.

27:11

I'm honored and I'm looking forward to the next one as well.

27:13

As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.

27:17

I really hope that you enjoyed it. Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.

27:21

If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think

27:25

might like this topic. If you haven't followed or subscribed

27:28

on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the bells and icons and all the whistles

27:32

so that you know that when we post another episode,

27:35

you'll be alerted, please go ahead and do all that before you go.

27:38

If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment

27:41

so we can help spread the show to other people who might be interested

27:44

in the topics that we've talked about here today,

27:46

but may not have found our show yet. Again, thanks for stopping by.

27:49

I'm Tim Staten, stating the obvious.