0:00

This is the guardian.

0:08

Today

0:09

A allegations of Chinese government

0:11

interference in the UK and a trail

0:13

of suspicious money across British

0:15

politics.

0:26

Last week, British MPs received

0:28

a rare warning from M. I. Five.

0:30

M. I. Five has issued a rare alert

0:32

about the named individual morning and

0:34

he's of woman has been working as an agent

0:37

for the Chinese state.

0:39

Hold! An interference alert and

0:41

Britain's counter intelligence and security

0:43

agency has never issued one like this,

0:46

now these warnings they come round so rarely

0:48

the well as I've only ever to. To

0:51

have only ever been issued one in

0:53

relation to the individual who is seem to be

0:55

a Russian agents and for the first time

0:57

last week or this one that

0:59

individual. Due to be try to sanction,

1:02

they were wounds, Mislead had been working with an

1:04

arm of the Chinese Communist Party to

1:06

covertly interfering UK politics

1:09

and that is the first. As and these are quite

1:11

upfront, morning successor of Phoenix

1:14

is it's nice PDF's M.

1:16

I. Five logo in the top left corner of the

1:18

Internet, see that very often on. An official documents

1:21

his name's individual is no photograph

1:23

of the description of. everything about

1:25

said this is fan of published device

1:28

m five to defuse without sticking up

1:30

on a swift

1:36

British join a solicitor was donating

1:38

money to punish and one,

1:40

case thank the south inside shadow

1:42

minister's office and even winning awards

1:45

from the prime minister or services to the community

1:48

Now, M. I. five claim she was clearinghouse,

1:51

Chinese government money the same did interfering

1:54

in UK politics.

2:07

In a frosty new era between Britain

2:09

and China, the Christine lilley say

2:11

it reveals just how vulnerable parliament

2:13

is to foreign influence. From

2:16

the guardian, on Today

2:19

in who gets the chinese

2:21

agent. Infiltrate Westminster?

2:28

Dan said that, your the guardian defense.

2:30

and security editor, and even following

2:32

this really intriguing story, let's begin

2:34

with the woman at the center of this interference

2:37

alerts Christine lilley a British

2:39

Chinese. solicit us who we see

2:41

and what have you been able to find out about it?

2:44

It's. The CIA ah she says

2:46

successful lawyer she rubs her

2:49

own know from she,

2:51

says in Britain britain long time and

2:53

she is a British citizen according to accompany

2:55

sauce records. As she's been

2:57

around long time on the as

2:59

if the school circles and she's always

3:01

seat in the Sierras angler Chinese when

3:03

Isis,. said

3:09

yes sir arthur range of groups

3:12

of brush chinese projects be developed

3:14

an old parliamentary group or

3:17

these the soul food group of and peace and

3:19

peers could chinese and bristle

3:22

am hello from specialized bristle often is sort

3:24

of anglo chinese legal issue see

3:26

what works and the chinese embassy the

3:28

uk tomato secret embassy fact that

3:30

she's trying to promote dialogue

3:32

and understanding between britain and china understanding

3:35

least been pretty successful ah

3:37

she's been tea sets either cause

3:39

they won't leave she time with the highest profile

3:41

politicians so Should.

3:44

Be photograph David Cameron when

3:46

President Xi China's press to

3:48

cover for state visit him to the

3:50

UK and twenty sustain different error

3:52

if I were Chinese relationships kristy.

3:54

Lee was invited to events connected

3:57

to that and she got an award from

3:59

Theresa. Then. She was Prime Minister again

4:01

for was younger too many of the family

4:03

that point civil rights award, it was no

4:05

the puzzle citations from Theresa

4:08

May she's also been trying to. Get involved

4:10

when they the circles, as says Cross, wish

4:12

every Corbyn see my destination

4:15

says earn more liberal Democrat leader,

4:17

but then energy sector treats a

4:19

daisy, discursive see policy. Kingston and

4:21

above all she's, had long

4:23

relationship with relationship one

4:25

the labour mp for bread north

4:28

barry gardiner and have made to nation's

4:31

most inclined to support his office

4:33

hundred five hundred eighty four thousand

4:35

pounds over the last six

4:38

or seven years is listening to someone

4:40

has been sufficiently for about decade

4:43

and decade half and the question becomes

4:45

why that

4:46

It's. Not unusual to be doing that kind of

4:48

bridge building work like there are lots of groups like this

4:51

that conservative friends of India, Labour

4:53

friends of the Congo and none of. That is illegal

4:55

or suspicious of why is Christine

4:57

leave work so alarming to the security

5:00

services?

5:01

precisely there's nothing wrong with there's nothing

5:03

wrong with lobby and is what

5:05

she was doing was been done by an embassy work

5:07

really hard to say was problematic but,.

5:10

there are so two things going on here i think the

5:12

take this to a different level the

5:14

first is his diplomatic

5:16

which essentially britain's relations with

5:18

china has changed and they and

5:21

they changed dramatically say six

5:23

years ago some in europe

5:25

and elsewhere see the world changing

5:28

and want to shut china or off behind bamboo

5:30

ton of trade barriers britain

5:33

wants to tear those trade barriers done

5:36

Cameron. George Osborne very keen on

5:38

per China policy they wanted strong

5:40

trade with China, it was out of it

5:43

was known as the Golden Era, as opened

5:45

Britain is the ideal. Partner

5:47

for an opening China: This is period

5:49

of close and warm and I says yes,

5:52

oh, since then, from and progressively

5:54

of the six year period, we see that serious.

5:57

decline and deterioration in Anglo

5:59

Chinese. They shouldn't either as

6:01

evidence not least spice either

6:03

China's a fool takeover of Hong

6:05

Kong with denial of democratic rights

6:08

this but. also any number

6:10

of other factors not least the us

6:12

and china either increasingly

6:14

have increasingly tense and the sarah when i ship

6:17

and as the u s sickly

6:19

on joe biden assistance would

6:21

spread sort of take and take his

6:23

side and be more assertive against

6:26

china to the last shippers could distance

6:29

have been here we have another example of such

6:31

and effects that the business say

6:33

ah actually you know off and

6:36

you've been around a long time we've had our eyes on

6:38

youth and now we're saying republic problem

6:40

with holy out

6:41

The done, it sounds like there's a few problems he

6:44

one is that Lee is kind of bridge

6:46

between the UK insider and that

6:48

relationship has turned pretty hostile

6:50

and so she's coming under scrutiny. What

6:53

security services finding is that

6:55

seat allegedly it's handling money from Chinese

6:57

interest overseas and that's illegal,

7:00

British politicians are not allowed to accept money

7:02

from abroad. The biggest problem

7:04

for M. I. Five is widely is

7:06

giving that money and who she's alleged to

7:08

be coordinating with what do we know

7:10

about that?

7:11

So I think we need to look at the actual

7:13

A into thirds of the itself

7:16

and one is saying is that leaves

7:18

an individual knowingly engaged

7:20

in politically interference activities

7:23

on behalf of A. pass

7:25

the chinese communist party who the

7:27

united front work department not department

7:29

lot of from work apartments is not

7:31

massively well known in the public

7:33

mind but it's a key part is

7:35

part key influences peddler

7:38

if you like influence platform for

7:40

platform preston cheese and the

7:42

chinese communist party and is part of china's

7:44

push the global south park That

7:47

is country the feels it doesn't have a.

7:49

lot of friends in the wealth politically

7:51

wealth lot of allies and it's free

7:53

eager to promote different ways

7:55

of thinking and more sympathetic fiji

7:57

tours china and countries around the world

8:00

I. Mean some of that, he says, the dismiss

8:02

the past the complaints about Lead

8:05

M I five have is that she's not truly

8:07

representing who's supporting

8:09

her, she looks really representing the. Interests

8:12

of behind that interest, the behind her other

8:14

Chinese Communist party, and specifically

8:16

this yards from what?

8:27

So. The allegation is this is not

8:29

giving away only her own money,

8:31

but also money from the Chinese government

8:33

in coordination with this Communist Party lobby

8:35

group, the United Front, with departments.

8:38

That was interesting, he is at least

8:40

spread this money across British politics,

8:42

but there was one MP who really benefited

8:45

and that was Labor's Barry Gardiner, he got

8:47

more than half. A million pounds of the past

8:49

seven years way more than anyone else

8:52

tell me about him.

8:53

Are you gonna reserve you know been around

8:55

the politics of of, a long time,

8:58

he was sad that of appreciated

9:01

Teddy by his profile but the grassley

9:03

chased him or recent years he moved to

9:05

the lesser the? posse and

9:08

basically became supporter of jeremy

9:10

corbyn winter becoming became leader

9:13

london's great city in which to

9:15

live to work to run business and

9:18

For all. In many

9:20

ways, we live in A. Green

9:23

and forward looking City and had a brief

9:25

role is shadow energy.

9:28

spokesperson ah but said

9:30

most and sign on to call venus shadow

9:32

international trade spokesperson he

9:34

also consider see sprint north

9:37

west london as significant

9:40

and chinese stocks for assays been

9:42

assays interested for long time in

9:45

china and at and

9:47

chinese issues as they touch they uk

9:50

What do we know about his relationship with

9:52

christie English?

9:53

The day of the M I five alone suffers

9:55

a lot of last week is in very quickly

9:57

of one side's look at who's. leave

10:00

donating Money to via her know from

10:02

Kristy Lee and Code and,

10:04

forgot his name comes up for I quickly

10:06

so absurdly the every reporter's

10:09

sort of the likely to me. Is cooling and

10:11

sending messages to Bygone era going what's your explanation

10:13

because it is easy to Heebie

10:15

Jeebies associating with this was years out

10:17

of love, French crafts, the campaign together? On

10:20

on for the either Agra Chinese relations

10:22

and we very gonna put our final statement

10:25

towards the end the day he entered to assess

10:27

some explaining to do and he. Said

10:30

to since he supposedly and

10:32

the to touch with the suits surfaces, I'm

10:34

m I five for long time about Kristy

10:36

Lee and they tell me there was nothing to worry. he'll

10:40

and then also said that he got a formal

10:42

warning formal the first time on

10:44

that Thursday morning and

10:46

some at some I five guys, and someone

10:49

from so. Parliamentary scrutiny portland

10:51

came and saw came saw him and said

10:54

hey look we put in this out today

10:56

as you point that if a. problem here and

10:59

related to that here says that

11:02

Then. Money you'd receive was not with

11:04

not money that was affected or taste

11:07

in that way there was no problem with any the

11:10

benefits and kind of. He'd received and

11:12

he was quite clear about that, and he

11:14

is the dated Susan appearing in public

11:17

in parliament, the oh and clock

11:19

either different into something as positions

11:21

at. Noah's Come On says there's anything wrong

11:23

with as explanation she's made those explanations

11:25

and the be questioned the media for sure, but

11:27

the not be questioned by security services

11:30

or anything. Like that.

11:32

Do you know what he was actually doing with this money

11:34

or these inclined donations that Christine

11:36

lilley was giving him?

11:37

Then he was using the money to fund research says

11:40

office these be paying the wages

11:42

of people God the says that

11:44

lead have no influence in

11:47

the. employment of these researchers

11:50

that was all done entirely by him although

11:52

separately one of her sons

11:54

to work us as the sisters

11:56

and a diary manager in god

11:58

this office

12:00

Either. He says he was employed by competitive

12:02

process or although this young

12:04

man resigns the day this

12:07

M. I. Five published his accusation as

12:09

soon as I heard that after finished. The

12:11

meeting with the director security

12:14

then went and immediately

12:16

contacted her son, who

12:18

has worked in my office as

12:20

the die manager and asked

12:22

him to tend to. His resignation forth with

12:25

which he did, and want to be

12:27

clear that this is, as we understand, is

12:29

due to his, the her son was not funded

12:31

by the installation.

12:39

Then I must say I'm pretty surprised to

12:41

know that a private individual whoever they

12:43

are can pay money to fund staff in

12:45

an M P's office but that aside delegation

12:48

he is a goddess specifically

12:50

was and. been targeted

12:53

by the chinese government influence operations

12:55

why him of all the hundreds of em

12:57

pays in palm

12:59

Well I. think because she could

13:02

and the question here because if

13:04

you couldn't get a so hold of start funding

13:06

somebody Then. You have credibility,

13:09

so what is what has done see through an M.

13:11

P. longstanding MP, do feel

13:13

it just allows you to say, "Hey, I must

13:16

be okay I've got" A predator

13:18

see out, so I've been around since

13:20

a long time and no one's feminism an aside

13:22

until somebody says. And.

13:25

He also how to spell as shot of energy

13:27

spokesperson around about twenty fifteen,

13:30

this is time when China

13:32

is wanting to get involved in the building of new nuclear.

13:35

Power stations are specifically

13:37

increase the Hinkley point, well, what

13:39

Barry Gardiner says to that is he

13:42

and he's on the record has been very critical

13:44

of the deal struck around Hinkley. Point

13:46

that off more money was being paid the British

13:48

bill passed stood to lose out so

13:52

he, set himself it was reported vested

13:54

for trying to if that was Call and he

13:56

certainly, no sense

13:58

to see been any ca Gotta be that he kind

14:01

of simplistic shill for Chinese

14:03

issues that far from.

14:05

What does he say now that all of this has

14:08

come out? So. We're gonna

14:10

says when it comes to the Alec allegations

14:12

about these activities is the first

14:14

a hippie to touch the security services for some

14:16

time about, leave

14:18

for many years. At it would appear

14:21

that no problem about

14:23

Lee or have money had been

14:25

raised with him had to be to probably would have

14:27

acted immediately, immediately was cautious

14:30

and. But I was also transparent

14:33

and at every stage registered

14:35

quite properly at the two

14:37

nations that she had made to

14:40

fund the work of at researchers

14:42

in my sexy says. This

14:45

this called specific morning on Thursday

14:48

at the day of M I Five Public Morning,

14:50

he says he was also told that

14:53

the little questions M Five heard. About

14:55

the sources of her money that is actually coming

14:57

from individuals in China and Hong Kong

14:59

and kong the was foreign nationals

15:01

that we, didn't previously. the

15:03

about the in his case

15:06

none of his money ah with

15:08

questionable origins was be

15:10

used to fund these large donations

15:12

in kind the researchers in his

15:14

office

15:16

They were all of which makes it a very strange

15:18

definition of interference, Minnesota

15:20

asked, what, in particular, or the security

15:23

services so afraid of from Christine

15:25

lilley and this money that she spread

15:27

around British politics.

15:29

That's. Where you saw to cycle back to the

15:31

idea about the why

15:33

the fiscal context, as we saw

15:35

say, this is a statement that

15:37

Britain is making about China and

15:39

there's. Been progressive and lusting

15:42

after the tone, so you saw

15:45

late last year, he has in December as

15:47

the head of M. I. Six, which is more giving

15:49

rare speech. They do about one is

15:51

adapting to a world affected by

15:53

the rise of China. The single

15:56

greatest priority for M. I. Six

15:58

Cents between Russia. The international

16:00

terrorism and that's the first time in

16:02

it's history. Then. Strong.

16:05

Language from bridge official did have British

16:07

minister so that the refs

16:09

with his meeting with is shifted the

16:11

what we haven't seen until his pristinely case

16:14

was the director. "Connection

16:16

They also very serious school or China's

16:18

threat", says the head of M. I. Six, okay

16:20

fine, but China's also long way away right,

16:22

so what is this thread actually? Look, like,

16:25

"well, here is, here is an example

16:28

this individual covertly

16:30

trying to seek influence, not quite

16:32

being clear about the sources or money and

16:34

the she's working for"

16:36

That you mention that Christine Lay hasn't been

16:38

charged, why is that, and where does

16:40

all of this leave her?

16:42

The one of these ray interesting about this

16:44

is that orderlies been called out by

16:46

F M I five the, Snow

16:49

there are no criminal activities and there's

16:51

no. immediate

16:53

prospect of the prosecution ah

16:56

or as my that is because that britain's

16:58

most round espionage ah

17:01

of outdated and this

17:03

is something the spy agencies would like to change

17:05

but yeah there's no criminal activity being

17:07

taken against his said the his perfectly

17:09

free to carry on vaccines sister

17:12

and you know and so on although the will be

17:14

clearly will bake reputation or hit

17:16

she herself has remained quite fraught

17:18

the fair so although their been the denial spice

17:21

the chinese embassy she herself

17:24

has no Said anything and

17:26

roll interestingly has let.

17:28

the matter stand so far

17:34

Coming up China's response and why

17:36

this is unlikely to be the last time

17:38

Beijing is called out for allegedly

17:40

interfering in UK politics.

17:53

Then he said earlier that the Chinese embassy

17:55

denies any wrongdoing and is Christine

17:58

lilley case what exactly? Have they

18:00

said about all this mean they can't

18:02

be enjoying these headlines?

18:04

The study were blocking his kind of attention

18:06

and the doesn't like being cold out does

18:08

like being in focus but they've

18:11

issued denial and they always

18:13

denied. allegations espionage allegations

18:16

either any of and woman may or be

18:18

a year book it's water for with guy

18:20

you for the Copyright

18:22

canal, sure. The eating today you can

18:24

do all. Go go up

18:26

will be other the Asia China reason he is

18:28

the principle of non interference in other countries

18:31

internal affairs was a.

18:33

was what the as statement said we

18:35

have no knees and never see to buy influence

18:37

any form parliament and we firmly impose

18:39

that the truth of what it says smearing

18:42

and intimidation against the chinese community

18:44

chinese the uk

18:46

The reality is. China

18:49

is awfully a superpower it has

18:51

sophisticated and gray with her

18:54

intelligence agencies this is something

18:56

that either, president xi

18:58

himself receiver eighteen or that are sort

19:00

of five seven years reorganize

19:02

intelligence agencies makes them more efficient

19:05

is building more powerful surveillance

19:07

capabilities possibly even at global

19:10

ones that nine itself is

19:12

what large countries do it's

19:14

not at all surprising and at large

19:17

countries will deny and or as everyone

19:19

does it does espionage there's also

19:21

broader point china has been

19:23

ah also willing to sort

19:25

of engage in push the

19:27

still exists that exists growing british

19:29

idea of the chinese threat For now,

19:32

China is our top. Already some

19:34

wasn't the Chinese us a.

19:36

few days earlier father's she

19:38

won his agency per hour

19:40

at the humorous videos slickly produced

19:43

sort of for five minute video was

19:45

intended was your battle to the declaration

19:47

by richard more the head of m i six this

19:50

either china was china fast emerging threats

19:52

that it was the m i six or

19:54

agency single biggest piracy so

19:56

they put out the schumer city and starring these

19:59

two slickly dry By

20:01

is supposedly fix your spies

20:04

the name is Pond James

20:06

Pond and James Pawns

20:08

and some. be recruited

20:10

pressure the marvel universe black

20:12

window season of bull dress

20:14

season black size they roll

20:16

up to this country houses smart car

20:19

and in engage in kind of which

20:22

he dialogue as the so their head into this country

20:24

house me there before you know it directly above

20:26

the champagne sipping champagne The

20:29

pretending to be M. I. Six Spies and hosting

20:31

the success and beating up the Chinese

20:34

threat that so they can get much more money.

20:36

The reality is, so we do any money

20:38

and we have and.

20:39

By that Java tooth

20:42

as a leader, insisting that there's no

20:44

way that China would to be threat

20:46

to the UK satisfied elevators.

20:49

Indeed, as passer. But.

20:51

It was pseudo was slickly produced

20:54

and the man Hyena not an

20:56

unusual way for China to return,

20:58

yes, sir, I think we're going to see more of

21:00

this. More Chinese soft power

21:03

diplomacy either notice

21:05

subtle in some cases but nevertheless

21:07

that the video got talked about right.

21:10

One. Of the funny things about that video is this Christine

21:12

Lay plot is not sort of double

21:14

o seven worthy it all, in fact, it's very

21:16

pedestrian, it's something that perhaps

21:18

a. lot of countries are seeking to do and I wonder

21:21

if you expect that will say more of these

21:23

interference alerts focused on China

21:25

in the near future"

21:27

I. Think that I'm a he I think

21:29

you are you all the see more, the seems unrealistic the

21:31

espionage act it makes for it makes

21:33

for great books as probably feet compress.

21:36

All the boring bits there are some wonderful, there are

21:38

a wonderful stories to be tough, but lot

21:40

of espionage it out of in James

21:42

Bond fast cause. The

21:44

know if it's not shootouts,

21:47

it's not dramatic and exciting

21:49

either, it's not be tedious patient work,

21:51

and if you're trying to guess influence over

21:53

somebody or into insert itself. "Into political

21:56

process you do need to do, it is dull

21:58

and boring and so away as" Right?

22:00

"You need to be influential without

22:02

people realize live at the influential

22:04

that that's the goal of exercise", said:

22:07

"It is it is an exciting, are we going

22:09

to see more? Effects with we definitely

22:11

off move to do so for temporaries is one

22:14

reason is pam did great power

22:16

politics is that a.

22:18

bus russia and china are increasingly

22:21

confident obsessive and

22:23

don't want says it is you

22:25

know they don't want to play the game by the west swirls

22:28

they want to play by their own rules and they

22:30

do one friends now eyes of

22:32

the one hand and they won't show that they're

22:34

powerful and influential on the

22:37

other facts i think we all have see more

22:39

these kinds of things but rules are going

22:41

to see the spy agencies cooling out

22:43

cooling think we're trying to more overtly

22:45

for a couple of reasons one of the

22:47

me sad be in over twenty years

22:49

since nine eleven the preeminent threat was is

22:51

amiss tara job as terrorism

22:54

and to either since either territory

22:56

to see if isis and twenty nineteen or

22:59

you know the capturing and telling of by danny that

23:01

for as when gone away and the thread

23:03

is really and francis as and is

23:05

the threat from hostile size is

23:07

not yet new cold war but

23:10

i think where we liked to see the you

23:12

know in some to dismiss the nice guy sitting

23:14

more like the cold war great power

23:17

world's that the world where we worried

23:19

about terrorists and circus

23:30

Then. Other thing is story highlights

23:32

is just how much outside money

23:34

sloshing around and UK politics

23:36

weather in the form of employees with second jobs,

23:39

advising foreign corporations and think tanks or.

23:41

As in this case, money alleged to come

23:43

from a secret departments inside the Chinese

23:46

government, possibly being used to pay for

23:48

stars inside and pays off this,

23:50

it just makes. British politics same

23:53

really porous and vulnerable to influence,

23:55

I wonder how much that worries security agencies.

23:58

The does and think you eat.

24:00

Maybe. He went to the point here, which

24:02

he sat there been a little worried about

24:04

how you consider influence to get assaulted

24:07

British politics on the Marshes, no two ways

24:09

you can. Do that both ways of race in

24:11

this case one way, street donations,

24:13

but there's also another way you can kind of gain

24:15

influence and series and as the

24:18

get lot. Of people be morning about this,

24:20

nothing much has really changed, so been don't

24:23

throw these sort of ppg

24:25

all Parliament for all party

24:27

parliamentary groups were knocking

24:30

around Westminster. They they

24:32

subtle Sam Walton hard to swallow

24:35

whole Parliament free select committee

24:37

so committees the not they're

24:39

fearful grew things around any

24:41

topic you like it could be whether it's

24:43

from. Fox hunting to angry

24:46

Chinese for patients to Russia to

24:48

any other country you can possibly think

24:50

of yeah they. can be

24:52

the off some off them running shoe string and poorly

24:54

funded poorly others can be well funded

24:56

with around secretary i guess at

24:59

the that nice seen as they're often vehicles

25:01

for trips abroad and

25:03

this is how you get influence on politics

25:06

so it's problem and it's

25:08

probably going to repeat itself and yeah

25:11

in this respect parliament is on

25:14

It seems like, and especially difficult

25:16

vulnerability to address when those who

25:18

are tasked with actually cutting off

25:20

these funds are the same impedes

25:23

who once and need this money.

25:25

Please always want more money

25:27

that always wanting more money for campaigning,

25:30

the always want more money to start

25:32

their offices, they. They.

25:35

Wanted more money from themselves as long

25:37

as that's the case as long as it's possible

25:40

to sort of Peter through donations,

25:42

this possibility in this thread exists

25:45

that the for of. Have to use

25:47

some of the weak points in a parliamentary system

25:50

and try to buy influence and

25:52

try to change the political agenda in their favor.

25:55

That said, I thank you very much, thank you very

25:57

much.

26:00

The guardian defense and

26:02

security edit. You can read all his coverage

26:04

of the Christine. Lee Affair at the Guardian Dot.

26:06

from Westminster. You can file

26:09

old turmoil at the of the Tory party

26:11

into the guardian politics.

26:13

Weekly review, get your podcast, that

26:15

is it for today. This episode was produced

26:17

by Alex. A tack sound design is

26:19

by Trudy to get load back

26:24

tomorrow.

26:34

This is the guardian.