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This is The Guardian. Today,

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greenlight.com/ACAST. That's greenlight.com/ACAST. The

1:04

Conservatives have bulldozed Labour's traditional

1:06

defences in the Midlands and

1:09

the North. When

1:11

Boris Johnson won his landslide victory

1:13

in 2019, he spoke directly to

1:15

his newest voters. You

1:17

may only have lent

1:19

us your vote. You may not think of

1:21

yourself as a natural

1:23

Tory. Your

1:26

hand may have fiddled over

1:28

the ballot paper before you

1:30

put your cross in

1:32

the Conservative box. And

1:36

you may need to return to Labour

1:38

next time around. I

1:40

was The Guardian's North of England editor then, and

1:43

it felt like he was acknowledging that the communities

1:45

right across my patch, places that had been

1:47

Labour for 100 years or more, were

1:49

not necessarily with him for the long term. If

1:53

there was one place on the electoral map that

1:55

I was shocked to see turn blue, it was

1:57

Lee, a former mining and weaving town

1:59

in Greenlight. to Manchester. To understand

2:01

how it happened, I decided to spend

2:10

a lot of time in Lee talking to people who

2:13

had switched allegiances for the first time. I spoke

2:28

quite often to Jo Platt, Lee's

2:30

last Labour MP. She blamed

2:32

her defeat on two main things, Brexit

2:35

and Jeremy Corbyn. And

2:37

even a year later, in December 2020, she told me

2:41

for an episode of Today in Focus just how

2:43

much work Labour would have to do to win

2:45

Lee back. It's a huge

2:47

mountain to climb, Helen. I don't

2:49

see any movement. I think people

2:51

are still sort of justifying their

2:54

vote last December. People

2:56

so often described Lee in terms of what it

2:58

didn't have, a railway station, for

3:01

example, or remarks and Spencer's in the

3:03

town centre. People would complain

3:05

that they felt in the shadow of Wigan

3:07

or Manchester. They felt perpetually

3:09

misunderstood and neglected by politicians in

3:11

London. As

3:15

we approached polling day, I decided to return

3:17

to Lee, along with producer Courtney Yousef, to

3:20

find out what had changed in five years

3:23

and to see if Boris Johnson was right to

3:25

realise that so many of the votes he won

3:28

in 2019 were only on loan.

3:31

From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pitt. Today

3:33

in Focus, has Labour done

3:35

enough to rebuild the Red Wall? On

3:47

a sunny June morning, producer Courtney and I were in

3:49

the car on our way to Lee. The

3:52

first time I came to Lee was about 15 years

3:54

ago, back when Labour was last in

3:56

power, to visit the then MP Andy

3:59

Burnham. The boundaries have changed

4:01

a bit for this election, and it's now

4:03

officially called Lee and Averton. Hey,

4:05

it's the Welcome to Lee sign. Haven't

4:08

seen that for a little while. It always lifts

4:10

the spirits a little bit. On the

4:12

sign are a collection of things that

4:15

make people from Lee proud to be from

4:17

Lee. So in the foreground you've got some

4:19

rugby players, and they're not just any rugby

4:21

players, they're rugby league players from Lee's team,

4:23

which is the Lee Leopards that do very

4:25

well at the moment. There's a picture of

4:27

children playing brass instruments, which I always think

4:29

it must be linked to one of the

4:31

Colory bands. Colories are just another word for

4:33

coal mines, and there's a mill in the

4:35

background. A reminder of

4:37

Lee's heritage is a spinning town where

4:39

people used to spin cloth. And

4:42

I think when people complain, as they do

4:44

often, about the state of Lee

4:46

Town Centre, or just Lee generally, they

4:48

do it from a place of pride,

4:51

I think, for where they come from, and the fact

4:53

that this used to be a proud mining and spinning

4:56

mill town. And those industries have

4:58

gone, and nothing

5:00

has really replaced them. And this

5:03

sign always just reminds me of the fact

5:06

that people want something

5:08

better fully. How

5:11

does it feel to be back? It's good to

5:13

be back. It's good to be back. I'm really

5:15

intrigued to see what's changed since I

5:17

was last here, and to reconnect with some of

5:19

the people that I met. It's

5:21

only four and a half years ago, but it feels like a

5:24

different lifetime ago. Some

5:26

of the old remnants of Lee's industrial past

5:28

remain. You can still see the

5:31

odd mill chimney poking up above the rooftops

5:33

of tightly packed heresies, but the

5:35

mines are long filled in, replaced with

5:37

out-of-town shopping centres and parks. These

5:40

days, much of the constituency is suburban,

5:42

with a mix of post-war semis, new-built

5:45

housing estates, and plenty of fields and

5:47

trees. So, who

5:49

are we going to meet now? We

5:52

are going to catch up with a young woman

5:54

called Jamie Lee Dooley, who I

5:56

met when she was just shy of her 16th

5:58

birthday. It was February 20th. 2020

6:01

and I was really keen to hear what

6:03

young people in Lee made

6:05

of the fact, or even if they're aware of

6:07

the fact actually that they had, or that their

6:09

elders anyway, had elected a Tory MP. And I

6:12

feel like young people so often get left out

6:14

of the debate. She now must be about 20

6:16

and I'm really intrigued to hear what she's been

6:18

doing in the past few years, how life has

6:20

gone for her. Jamie!

6:25

Jamie Lee! Hey! How's it going? Nice

6:27

to see you after all these years!

6:30

This is Courtney, my producer. Hi! In

6:34

a tea room on a busy road on

6:36

the edge of Lee, we met Jamie Lee,

6:39

who's just finished her second year studying TV

6:41

at Edge Hill University in Lancashire. When

6:44

I first met her at her youth club

6:46

in Tildsley in the south of the constituency,

6:48

she said that her greatest fear in life was

6:51

not having enough money. I've not even got a

6:53

job yet and I'm already thinking about I want

6:55

another one. It is my greatest

6:58

fear to not have money, to

7:00

be struggling as like, I've

7:02

seen struggling families. It's awful and you hate to

7:04

stand and watch it and that might even get

7:06

worse in the future for all

7:09

of us. Do

7:11

you remember that and how do you feel about that now? I

7:14

don't remember that but that actually makes a

7:16

lot more sense because I actually do three

7:19

different incomes now. Really? Along with uni. I

7:21

work at the ice cream place but I

7:23

also do dog walking in my area and

7:25

I also have a small business doing illustration

7:27

work for clients and I never

7:30

stop really because on my breaks I'm

7:32

usually working. So it's a bit funny

7:34

that actually came true. I'm

7:36

still stressing about money. Even if I work

7:38

like 40 hours now at work, I always

7:40

still have the other incomes because I just

7:42

can't knock. For my first year I was

7:44

actually on, at a certain point

7:46

I was on food stamps because how much

7:49

uni takes away from you for accommodation. It

7:52

leaves you very little and I don't

7:54

understand how a lot of people go

7:56

about it. You get very little support

7:58

really. Limmy Lee

8:00

was the first person in her family to go to

8:02

uni. And yeah, it's clearly

8:04

been a struggle, having to use food

8:06

stamps to survive and working three jobs.

8:09

And do you feel like the UK in 2024 is a place that

8:12

if you work hard, you'll be rewarded? No.

8:15

Right. No. No, I'm planning

8:17

to leave the country. Really?

8:19

Yeah. Why? Where do you want to go? I plan

8:21

to move to Sweden. I've

8:23

been serving the language for a while now.

8:26

I do not plan to stay in the UK. And I

8:28

think a lot of people plan to move out, too. It

8:32

just doesn't feel like a place where you're supported

8:34

as an individual unless you're gifted

8:37

in a higher-earn income of a family. Jamie's

8:40

never been to Sweden. She's been

8:42

saving up for a trip next year and has

8:44

been teaching herself Swedish for years. But

8:47

she still thinks it's going to offer her a better

8:49

life. It's just such a

8:51

pretty place, and I've done a lot of research

8:54

on how it does actually support its people

8:56

a lot better. And even

8:58

the educational side of the system just

9:01

seems more supportive. So I've been dedicated that

9:03

if I do even have a family, it

9:05

will be not in this country because I

9:07

don't really want to put them in that

9:09

situation. Right. That's quite stark to hear you

9:11

say that. Have you registered to

9:13

vote? I am registered to vote. OK. And how are

9:15

you feeling about it? Now

9:17

that I've officially got my letter that I

9:20

am registered, I generally just want Conservative. I

9:22

don't like Rishi. Why not?

9:24

He's very distant as a Prime Minister. Like,

9:26

I don't know if you've seen, but on

9:28

the recent news, he tried to connect with

9:30

people. Don't know if you heard about the

9:33

Sky box thing. Oh, yeah. When

9:35

he said, oh, I struggled when I was younger,

9:37

you know, we went without, for

9:39

example, Sky TV. Yeah, he was clearly

9:41

trying to connect, but still

9:43

very distant because I think a

9:45

lot of people didn't have Sky. I had

9:48

knock-off DVDs that cost like 50p from the

9:50

bin, maybe less. I

9:52

plan to vote Labour, yeah, because I don't

9:54

want him. Is

9:56

it... I don't remember his name. Is it Cut?

12:00

and the people you're working for, I just think

12:02

it's the norm to let you carry on doing

12:04

it for a minimum wage.

12:07

Even the fact that a job centre needs a security

12:09

guard, that surprises me. Yeah, there's

12:11

six in here. Six

12:13

security guards? Six security guards, that's your norm in

12:16

a job centre. Unfortunately,

12:18

that is the norm, no, six

12:20

security guards. And why do you

12:22

think people are getting more aggressive? I

12:26

suppose at the benefit system, same as paying here, they

12:28

don't want to give you anything. There's

12:30

just no money anywhere for anything. Be

12:33

it wages, be it benefits, be it whatever, there's

12:35

just no money there. And people

12:37

need money, don't they? Will

12:40

you vote on 4th of July? I'm

12:42

going to vote, yeah. Who are you

12:44

weighing up between? Well,

12:46

I will probably vote Labour,

12:50

because... Well,

12:53

I don't know why. I

12:56

like one slightly more than the other,

12:58

and that's basically it. So

13:00

you're not enthusiastic about KQ? No, no, no. K.A.

13:03

Starmer and his vision for the future? No, I'm not.

13:05

I'm not enthusiastic about anything. You

13:07

know what I mean? It's all been knocked

13:09

out to you, after all these years round

13:11

here. We

13:13

spoke to some of Geoff's striking colleagues,

13:15

including Mustafa, who'd originally come to Lee

13:18

from Egypt. How easy is

13:20

it to survive on the minimum wage? You've got

13:22

kids? Well, I'm hardly surviving at the moment. Really?

13:25

Yeah, because I'm separate now,

13:27

so I'm paying for child maintenance, I'm paying rent

13:29

for my own cancer tax, bills,

13:31

food, car insurance, fuel. So

13:34

it's exactly what I'm earning, exactly what

13:36

is really going for my custom of

13:38

life. Even some time

13:40

I'm trying to do extra job or something, looking for

13:42

something, just to have better life

13:44

for me and for my kids as well.

13:48

But despite all that, he insisted that

13:50

Lee was still a nice place to

13:52

live. I never have any trouble since

13:54

2015. People are really lovely. Where I'm

13:56

living, at work, everywhere, I didn't have

13:58

any trouble with anybody. We

14:10

walked into town towards the library where there were

14:12

people sitting in the shade eating their lunch. So

14:15

I'll tell you what's new since I was last here

14:17

which is this amazing mural which is on the gable

14:19

end of a terrace. It's a picture of Pete Shelley

14:21

who is the singer in the Buzzcocks, arguably

14:23

Great Manchester's finest ever band. If you know that

14:25

song Ever Fallen in Love with someone you shouldn't

14:28

have. People

14:32

in Lee are very proud that Pete Shelley is one of

14:34

theirs so he grew up here. What a cool

14:36

mural, he died in 2018. Lee's grand

14:40

Victorian town hall is a reminder

14:42

that this was once an important

14:44

centre for commerce and industry. Outside

14:47

we spoke to Chloe, a 23 year

14:49

old mum who was out with her

14:51

daughter who was munching on a gingerbread

14:53

man and clutching a shiny unicorn balloon.

14:55

I couldn't stop thinking about

14:57

something that Jamie Lee had said earlier, about

15:00

her hopes for the future and

15:02

how if she had a child one day she

15:05

hoped that she'd be able to feed not just

15:07

the baby but herself as well. What do you

15:09

think about Rishisouna and the Conservatives? Why

15:11

did you say that? I

15:14

just think it's all about himself, it's all

15:16

about the ones that have money, they don't

15:18

think about us at all, they say oh

15:21

people in Universal Credits, they'll say oh we're

15:23

doing this to help use and get used

15:25

back into work, same as Pip but really

15:27

they don't know what people go for on

15:29

a daily basis. Do you know

15:31

what I mean? So yeah I just think they're

15:33

all about themselves. Are you on Universal Credit then?

15:35

No I'm on Pip. Right

15:38

so that's Personal Independence Payment is it? Yeah

15:40

yeah. Is that a disability is it? Yeah

15:42

yeah I've got ADHD, Autism, Bipolar and OCD

15:44

and I find it very very difficult but

15:46

they don't understand that. They

15:49

can say oh yeah well get up and go to work.

15:52

Yeah with all them disabilities can you actually just get

15:55

up and go to work? I can't even get up

15:57

on a daily basis for my own child. I have

15:59

to have support from a family. One of Rishi Sunak's

16:01

promises is to cut the welfare bill, cut benefits. What's

16:04

it like at the moment for you living

16:07

off...pip? Hard. Constantly

16:09

thinking, what's the tea, what can

16:11

she drink? So who's this?

16:13

My little girl. How old is

16:16

she? Three tomorrow. Oh right, she's a bit tomorrow.

16:18

It's just like, you know, how am I meant

16:20

to go on off, pay my bills, not get

16:22

into debt? You know, it's just hard. It's like,

16:25

how can I get her to school, how can

16:27

I afford school shoes for her, how can I...

16:30

It's just not happening. So what you're saying about

16:32

all cut benefits, cut benefits, well... What

16:35

are you gonna do if we go back into

16:37

work? Are you gonna deal with us? Are you gonna deal with

16:39

my episodes? Oh,

16:41

it's like 30 tomorrow. I've had to literally just

16:44

scream and scrape. I've had to have beans on

16:46

toast for tea for ages, you know, just to

16:48

save up for a birthday. And even now she's

16:50

not got what she wants,

16:52

if that makes sense. I think they just need

16:54

a reality check. Yeah. Thanks

16:57

so much. Oh, no problem. Have a lovely

16:59

birthday. While we were chatting to Chloe, a

17:01

cyclist pulled up and sat down on a

17:03

bench, listening to loud rock music through his

17:05

headphones. He was covered in

17:07

tattoos, he had an eyebrow ring, and he

17:09

was wearing one of those military berets, Che

17:12

Guevara style. He was clearly

17:14

very engaged with politics, but

17:16

he had absolutely no faith in

17:18

politicians either. I've noticed your tattoo,

17:20

Animal Liberation, Human Liberation. What's your

17:22

other tattoo down there? Just Joe

17:24

Strummer punk music. Oh, you're

17:26

a punk. You just had

17:28

married the Pete Schelling. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was an

17:30

uprising in the late 70s, early 80s. And

17:33

it was just young disaffected people who, you

17:35

know, the message was, it didn't matter whether you was a black

17:37

youth or a white youth, you come together. Because

17:40

basically it was all working class, and you know, all the

17:42

industry round here, but mine's the cotton

17:44

mills. It totally disappeared, so I left school in 1985.

17:47

So what, you know, not a lot. I'm surprised

17:49

when Lee went touring. Oh,

17:52

yeah, 100%. Yeah. Because there's

17:54

an old saying in Lee that you can put a pig on the

17:56

town hall steps with a red rose out on, and the people would

17:58

vote for him. devote

18:00

labour regardless of what's happening. But

18:03

you know I think that labour and this

18:05

labour are two different things aren't they? You

18:07

know the socialism's gone out of labour. You

18:11

know it's nearly 40 years I've been eligible to

18:13

vote and I haven't seen any change whatsoever. Just

18:16

false promises. It

18:34

was lunchtime and we were getting hungry so

18:36

we walked down Bradshaw Gate, the main shopping

18:38

street, to buy some pasties. Two

18:41

of those please. We're a journalist

18:43

from the Guardian, we're making a

18:45

podcast about the election. Are you

18:48

going to vote? Yeah, maybe. Reform,

18:50

really, why? Because I believe in

18:52

there's too many people coming in.

18:55

From where in particular? The immigrants and that.

18:58

Yeah. That's my bigger thing. And

19:01

what is it about immigration that you think is too high? You

19:04

can't get jobs to pint, you can't

19:06

get anything here because we're just too

19:08

overrun. And who have you voted for

19:10

in the past? Which party? I voted

19:12

for conserved here last

19:15

time and I voted

19:17

for what was the other national party?

19:20

No, work labour, I've never voted

19:22

labour. UK? Yeah. Right. And

19:24

why wouldn't you vote Tory this time? Because

19:27

he's not done anything. He's

19:29

against me though. Really,

19:31

why? Because you can't stand Barrage. What

19:33

about him? He's a liar. He's

19:36

a birth-ace liar. Right, what's the

19:39

lie about? Well, everything he said

19:41

about Europe improving the country, worse.

19:45

I don't know anything. Prices have gone up, haven't

19:47

they? Wages have stagnated. He

19:49

wants to come out of the European

19:52

Court of Human Rights so that all

19:54

workers rights will get ripped up. I

19:57

just think it's an idiot. since

22:00

1999. It's a very retro drink.

22:03

James Grundy is very much a homebody.

22:06

He's in his 40s, and he lives with

22:08

his parents on their farm on the outskirts of

22:10

the constituency. He was a local

22:13

councillor before becoming Lee's MP in 2019, winning

22:16

a majority of almost 2,000. So

22:18

we first met, I don't know if you remember, it was February

22:20

2020. We met in a

22:22

different pub. It was actually in Wigan that time. And

22:24

you still seemed slightly stunned that you

22:27

had won. I've

22:29

got to be honest, I mean, after five years,

22:31

I'm still stunned. He never

22:33

expected to win what he referred to then

22:35

as the end brick of the Red Wall.

22:37

The Conservatives have taken a Labour seat, and

22:40

it's been a Labour seat for the first time since 1922. Thank

22:43

you, everyone. I

22:45

hope you'll forgive me if this speech is

22:47

a bit racoon, because to be quite honest,

22:49

I wasn't necessarily expecting to give one. And

22:52

first of all, I would like to

22:55

thank... ..but he did win against all

22:57

expectations, and yet he's decided not

22:59

to stand again. I asked him why.

23:02

The simple truth is that over

23:05

the past five years, there have been a huge amount of challenges,

23:07

and that's true of politics at any

23:10

time in history. But

23:12

I've noticed an incredible toxification

23:14

of the political atmosphere. And

23:17

I think that what

23:19

you're seeing now is increasingly

23:22

that MPs have gone from respected community

23:24

figures to fair game, but

23:26

not just the MPs, but their families,

23:28

their staff, their friends, over

23:31

things that are happening in Parliament and are

23:33

often misrepresented. And what would

23:35

you say to those people who might suggest

23:37

that the real reason you're standing down is

23:39

that you saw the writing on the wall

23:41

and you thought, I've got no chance of

23:43

winning? You don't join the Conservatives

23:46

in the league if you're afraid of being beat.

23:49

I don't feel losing, but I

23:51

do wonder whether or

23:53

not the game is worth the candle

23:55

when it comes to the sheer tide

23:57

of nastiness that's happening at the moment.

24:00

I think especially in this election, given

24:02

the rise of reform and the very

24:04

heated debate over things like immigration and

24:06

all the rest of it, which are

24:08

important issues, but we seem to have

24:10

lost the ability to discuss important, honestly

24:12

held issues with strong opinions on either

24:14

side in a civil manner. I

24:17

asked him where he thought it had started to go

24:19

wrong for the Conservatives. I think when

24:21

Boris went, the party didn't have a clear

24:23

idea of who was going to take over,

24:25

so you ended up with 12 candidates or

24:28

whatever. And you elected Liz Truss. Didn't you

24:30

vote for her? I did. And

24:32

the simple truth is, because I sat down with all

24:34

the candidates and I talked about an important local issue,

24:36

it reads that the Guardian may not be aware of

24:38

it, but the issue with Lexit, which is that Lee

24:40

feels very much disadvantaged by

24:42

being part of Wigan Council. And I sat

24:44

down with all of the Councillors. Lexit, Lee

24:47

breaking free from the shackles of

24:49

Wigan Council, has long been Grundy's

24:51

obsession. It's always felt to

24:53

me like a distraction from the real issues

24:56

in the constituency, particularly the feeling

24:58

of hopelessness, which seemed to me to have

25:00

only grown over the past five years. So

25:03

much disaffection, so much apathy. And

25:05

it's been getting worse over the years, but I think it's really

25:07

worse than ever. I think there's some

25:09

truth to that. I mean, don't

25:12

underestimate how much Covid knocked everything

25:14

sideways in terms of the two

25:17

years that were lost to that.

25:19

Obviously, Lee's got a significant chunk

25:21

of investment from the Conservative government,

25:24

but only some of that has actually fed

25:26

through into visible improvements. So, for example, if

25:29

you look at Lee Infirmary, we've got

25:31

£20 million worth of investment, a new

25:33

community diagnostic centre, new operating theatres. That's

25:36

a physical example of what a Conservative

25:38

government has done. He

25:40

admitted he hadn't yet been out campaigning at all,

25:43

which seemed to me to be hardly a vote of confidence

25:45

in Rishisounak. Have you been out on the campaign trail this

25:47

time around? Not

25:49

as yet. I mean, well, the simple truth

25:51

is when it turns out that shutting down

25:54

an MP's office is at least as difficult

25:56

as opening one. Coming

26:02

up, a Labour insider

26:04

on how Nigel Farage changed the

26:06

conversation in Lee. What

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with Greenlight today, and get your

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first month free at greenlight.com/ACAST. What's

27:25

your favourite AI-driven world? Labor has

27:28

selected Jo Platt to be its

27:30

candidate in Lee, again, almost five

27:32

years after she lost in 2019.

27:36

She said she was too busy to speak

27:38

to me this time round, and so I

27:40

caught up with one of her closest allies

27:42

in the local Labour party, a youth worker

27:44

called Jess Eastow, who was well known for

27:46

running a very popular local Facebook group called

27:49

Absolute Lee. We first

27:51

met in early 2020, just before Covid

27:53

hit, and back then she was very

27:55

frank about where Labour had gone wrong. London-centric

28:00

politics. Nobody cares about Lee, so why

28:02

should we vote Labour? And

28:05

that didn't help with Jeremy Corbyn, John Macdonald,

28:07

Emily Thome, we're here to an extent saying

28:09

that we want a second friend because the

28:11

people in Lee didn't want that. We

28:14

met up with her again at Acosta Coffee at

28:16

the Parsonage Retail Park, which has been built on

28:18

the site of an old coal mine. You

28:21

OK? Yeah, we've had such a nice sunny

28:23

day. Yeah, my hayfool is kicking my bum.

28:25

Is it? Is it? Keir

28:27

Starmer came to Lee within days of

28:30

the 2019 election defeat when he was

28:32

running to be leader. And

28:34

he sat in Joe Platt's living room and listened

28:36

to members explain why Labour had lost in Lee

28:38

and what he needed to do to rebuild trust.

28:41

Do you remember that? Yes, I wasn't there on

28:43

the day because it was actually unboxing day. Right.

28:46

So I was busy. But

28:49

I do know a sort of overview of what was

28:51

said resonating with the working class was

28:53

a big one. That

28:56

Labour no longer did. Yes,

28:58

not so much just the working class,

29:00

but the northern working class. I think

29:02

we're our own breed with our own

29:04

identity, really. And when did

29:06

you start to notice a change on the doorstep?

29:09

Maybe people being a bit more receptive towards

29:11

Labour's message. Partygate. Right. I

29:15

think some people voted for the Tories

29:17

because they preferred Boris Johnson over Jeremy

29:19

Corbyn. But some people thought that

29:22

the deal that we might have gotten

29:24

for Brexit, the Tories were a safer

29:26

pair of hands. But I think the

29:28

lies and the scandals that came after

29:30

that sort of proved people wrong a

29:32

little bit. And then Liz

29:34

Truss. Actually, when all our

29:36

mortgages went up, we had

29:39

more people phoning us to get involved then than

29:41

we did under Boris. And

29:43

how does it feel now on the campaign trail for

29:45

the general election? We can't be

29:47

complacent. This idea of a safe seat just isn't

29:49

a thing here. Three

29:52

times a day we're out door knocking. Our

29:54

biggest threat is the undecideds and not knowing

29:56

who they're voting for. And

29:59

how big a proportion of the... lecturer at the undecideds they

30:01

don't know us. I'd

30:03

probably say one in eight doors. I'm

30:06

not saying that the other seven are all Labour

30:08

but they're I still don't know. Probably

30:10

one in eight doors up the street. And are

30:12

you encountering quite a lot of reform voters? Yes,

30:17

not as many to be worried in the

30:20

sense of oh crap we're gonna go reform

30:22

but in a worry that we've still got

30:24

work to do to win people over. We've

30:27

met quite a lot of reform voters in Lee

30:29

today and immigration has come up quite a

30:31

lot. Nigel Farage is saying this is the

30:33

immigration election is it a key issue that

30:35

gets brought up? Actually not

30:38

as much as you think but those

30:40

that do shout it at you. It's

30:42

quite frustrating for us as well

30:44

because before Nigel Farage came

30:47

back to run this election was

30:49

about the cost of living crisis that we're all

30:51

sort of facing and now our

30:53

heads have been turned for immigration. I asked

30:56

Jess whether she felt there was much

30:58

enthusiasm for Keir Starmer. Yeah no there's

31:01

not and I'm the first

31:03

to admit that I have said he is

31:05

quite boring. I think there might be a

31:07

generational thing as well. However when we've had

31:09

Donald Trump partygate and a

31:12

Prime Minister compared to a lettuce I think

31:14

I'll take boring. Once he's in hopefully he

31:16

can be trustworthy and change the opinion on

31:19

politics so if we get a boring leader

31:21

that's actually going to change the country then

31:23

I'll take it. Courtney

31:29

and I ended our day by going to

31:31

Pennington Flash, a country park that laters all

31:33

know and love. It's a

31:35

success story of post-industrial regeneration. A flash

31:38

is a name for a water filled hollow formed

31:40

by mining. So we're just coming

31:43

into Pennington Flash now which is a big

31:45

country park that's built on the site of

31:47

a former coal mine. So it's a nature

31:49

reserve. It's where everything like comes for a

31:51

walk and what's the dogs or? There

31:54

was a lovely tranquil atmosphere until I

31:56

dared to interrupt the peace by asking

31:58

people about the election. I think

32:00

they're on a load of rubbish, I don't trust

32:02

one of them and I don't think

32:04

it will be any better off whoever gets in. What

32:07

is it that you want for Lee? I

32:11

want everybody to be able to

32:14

live without having to beg. It's

32:17

not right in this day and

32:19

age that some people are

32:22

having to scrounge just to

32:24

feed the kids. It's a

32:26

disgrace and it shouldn't be allowed

32:28

to happen and all these

32:30

fat cats, you

32:33

know, but they're never mine. And are

32:35

you going to vote then or not? Oh

32:37

I'll vote, yeah. Who for? I'm not

32:39

telling you. Again. We

32:43

went for an ice cream at the pavilion and got

32:45

chatting to the couple at our table, Eve and Andy,

32:47

who had been walking their daughters' dogs. Eve,

32:49

a retired nurse, had decided to change

32:52

her vote just recently. I'm voting reform,

32:54

I like Farage, I like what he's

32:56

saying. What do you like about him?

32:59

I just think everything he says rings true

33:01

with me and I feel

33:03

like that's the way I want the country run.

33:06

Such as? The way he

33:08

comes across and he

33:10

seems to be more for the people

33:14

and the good of the country and the community

33:16

than the others. I

33:18

thought I was going to vote Tory with

33:21

Rishi Sundat but then I saw Farage on

33:23

the telly on Sunday morning and I just

33:25

thought, wow. Really? Yeah. Just

33:28

thought everything you're saying, mate, if you're true to

33:30

your word, I'll vote for you.

33:33

So I hope you don't let me down. I

33:35

mean Joe Platt's alright but I don't

33:38

like Keir Starmer. Why not? Because

33:41

I don't. He's not telling us

33:43

what he's actually going to do. He's

33:45

full of talk but no actual substance

33:47

to it. Tell us what

33:49

you're actually going to do, mate. And

33:51

he's not. Well he would

33:53

say that he's got a manifesto and he's laid it

33:55

all out there. Yeah but

33:58

who reads them? write

34:00

anything in a manifesto, but if

34:02

he's not going to say it, is he really true to

34:04

his word? Is he going to stand by what he says?

34:07

And I don't trust him. Her

34:10

husband Andy said he was sticking with the Tories.

34:13

He was our one and only Tory voter of

34:15

the day. Are you all sticking

34:17

with the Tories, did you say? I am because

34:19

basically I don't trust Labour party. Really

34:21

still? I've not seen anything or heard

34:23

anything to say what they're actually going to do to

34:25

change it. They keep saying, we're going to do this,

34:27

we're going to do that. When they ask how, we

34:31

don't know. They don't come up with substance. And

34:34

to me, that means I don't trust them. You're the first

34:36

Tory voter we've met all day. Oh really? Yes,

34:39

you are. Oh God. And

34:41

I suppose I'm the first reform. No, we've met loads

34:43

of reform. Have you? I'm not

34:46

surprised. People want to

34:48

look after this country. They

34:50

want to look after their communities. They

34:53

want more caring environment,

34:55

caring amongst each other. So

35:05

we're looking out over a glistening lake.

35:07

There's Canada geese bobbing,

35:10

there's absolutely loads of Canada geese bobbing away

35:12

in a few swans. It's

35:14

a lovely summer's day. I

35:17

think what's really struck me

35:19

most, returning to Lee,

35:21

is how modest people's ambitions have

35:23

become. We've asked

35:25

people what they hope

35:28

for in life, what a better life would look

35:30

like for themselves. And time and time again, they've

35:32

said things like, I just

35:34

want to live in a world where people don't have

35:36

to beg for the basics. And I

35:38

really think about Jamie Lee, who I reconnected

35:41

with this morning, saying

35:43

it'd be great if maybe I could get

35:45

a house one day and if I have

35:47

a child, then hopefully I'd be able to

35:50

feed the child without going

35:52

without myself. I mean,

35:54

these are such basic, modest hopes. And

35:57

I just feel like 14 years ago. A

36:00

20-year-old, that wouldn't be the ambition that they would say.

36:02

They would be dreaming bigger and this is no reflection

36:04

on Jamie Lee at all. But

36:07

when Jamie imagines her future, it's not in

36:09

the UK, it's in Sweden. And

36:11

I think that the way politicians have behaved

36:14

and how the country is

36:16

after 14 years of Tory rule has really

36:18

kind of ground people down and it's narrowed

36:20

their horizons and made them pessimistic

36:25

about the future in

36:27

a way that I find quite sad. I

36:30

think if Labour manages to win back

36:32

Lee, I think they

36:34

would be drawing the wrong conclusions from

36:36

that victory if they conclude that the

36:38

red wall is back, it's fortified, it

36:40

can be relied on and taken

36:42

for granted in the way that it was in

36:44

the past. And they would be very

36:46

foolish if they took a victory in

36:48

Lee as anything more than a

36:50

protest vote against the Tories right now. That's

37:01

all for today. Thanks so much to everybody who

37:04

spoke to us in Lee. And

37:06

if you enjoyed today's episode, please do leave

37:08

us a review because it helps other people

37:10

to find us. And if you're

37:12

interested in politics, I'd encourage you to listen

37:14

to Politics Weekly Westminster today where

37:17

The Guardian's political editor, Pippa Creer,

37:19

is discussing how she broke the

37:21

crucial gambling story that has dominated

37:23

the campaign in these final days.

37:26

And one last thing, a little plea from me.

37:29

If you've got this far into the podcast,

37:31

then I hope you appreciate our coverage of

37:33

UK and global news and how

37:35

we take you right to the heart

37:37

of a story. The Guardian doesn't have

37:39

a billionaire owner and it's completely independent

37:41

of corporate interests or political interference and

37:44

it's funded by listeners just like you. We

37:46

know that not everyone can afford to pay

37:48

for the news right now, but if you

37:50

can, please do choose to support The Guardian.

37:54

Follow the link in the episode description. Today's

37:56

episode was produced by Courtney Yousuf and presented

37:58

by me, Helen and Pid. Sound

38:01

Design was by Hannah Varell and the

38:03

executive producer was Chomakalili. We'll

38:05

be back tomorrow with the first of a

38:07

two-part series assessing how 14 years

38:09

of conservative rule has broken Britain. This

38:22

is The Guardian. Danny

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