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in this week's episode is sponsored

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by warner brothers new line cinema

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and renaissance pictures evil dead

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rise moving the action

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our work on tower for season three

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we want to present you with another show by afraid

1:02

that voyage media they

1:03

just released their new saif a series

1:05

called i am echo it's

1:07

kind of us psi phi version of succession

1:10

it's

1:10

about a young woman who suspects her mother may

1:12

have been involved in her father's death but

1:15

her mother controls a billion dollar fun

1:17

and she's powerful and dangerous basically

1:19

a female logan roy and

1:21

as the young woman investigates the she uncovers

1:23

repressed memory she has but

1:25

they might not be her memories it's

1:28

a fun in weird in unique show but

1:30

don't take our word for it here's the first

1:32

episode in it's entirety but

1:34

make sure after you listen to go check out the whole

1:36

series you could find i am echo

1:39

from voyage media anywhere you listen to podcasts

1:41

we hope you enjoy it

1:49

my

1:49

mom may have had something to do with my

1:51

dad's death it happened so

1:53

long ago i was eight and

1:55

it's been shrouded in mystery but

1:58

it is a mystery i can no longer

2:00

ignore. Let me back

2:02

up. My whole life I never

2:04

had that main character energy. Never

2:07

wanted it. Not when I come from a family

2:09

full of secrets and what I assume

2:11

to be a crap load of lies. I

2:14

was content on being in the background, working

2:16

hard, getting good grades. I

2:19

excelled at staying out of trouble. Moving

2:22

away from home for the first time at the ripe

2:24

age of 23, getting my PhD, It

2:27

was all part of that plan. A plan

2:30

I thought was going to get easier the

2:31

farther away I got from Mom.

2:34

When you're a kid, you take your parents at face

2:36

value. They know everything

2:39

and have your best interest at heart. Then

2:41

you become an adult, and you see your

2:43

parents as they really are. Messy

2:46

humans. If you're lucky,

2:48

you get to forgive them, knowing they did the best

2:51

they could. But with my mom,

2:53

Barbara, I'm seeing

2:55

that things are much worse than anything

2:57

I could have imagined. On top

2:59

of her being a full-blown narcissist.

3:02

I thought if I kept my head down I could have

3:04

a chance at a normal life. A

3:06

nice, boring life fit for a supporting

3:09

character. But with new information

3:11

about my dad coming to light, I

3:13

have to finally step up as the lead in

3:15

my own story. I thought

3:17

this was going to be one of those cliche coming-of-age

3:20

dramaties. You know the one where

3:22

I start writing my own music or open

3:24

a bakery.

3:26

Instead, what I'm finding myself in is

3:28

a thriller. One that comes with way

3:30

more mommy issues than I thought. This

3:32

is not what I imagined signing up for when

3:35

I moved to Florida.

3:36

But here we freaking are.

3:41

Hun? Yeah? You

3:44

were spacing out pretty hard. Anything

3:47

on your mind? The

3:49

usual. New town. New

3:51

chapter.

3:52

I'm starting

3:54

to take it personally picking a school

3:56

so far from home. This

4:00

is one of the best PhD programs in

4:02

genetics. I built you

4:04

to be more than someone who hides behind

4:06

a microscope all day. You

4:09

built me? You know what I mean. We

4:12

worked so hard. New

4:14

York City is your oyster. The

4:16

saying is the world is your oyster. So

4:19

that includes Gainesville, Florida. Manhattan

4:22

is the world. And my connections

4:25

are now your connections. But instead,

4:27

you've moved to Swamplville, USA.

4:30

You don't need my help with the charity

4:32

organizations. It is a legacy.

4:36

All the good you could be doing with me and

4:38

you want to be a lab rat?

4:41

Dad went here. Remember? Same

4:43

program. Is that why you're doing this? Really?

4:47

This is your

4:49

terminal. Yeah. We're

4:52

at a regional airport in Florida. This

4:54

is the only terminal. I

4:57

should have flown private.

5:00

Why are you trying to have this conversation now?

5:03

Because it's just hitting

5:05

me how serious you are about this

5:08

path. Yeah. Upending

5:10

the only life I've known finally tipped

5:12

you off? You're right. It's

5:14

too late.

5:18

Promise you'll call me every

5:20

day. You mean text. I

5:23

can text you every day, and I think a

5:25

call once every few weeks will be healthy. Boundary-wise,

5:30

I love you. Call once a week, okay?

5:33

Okay!

5:36

Free at last!

5:41

How did you know? I literally

5:44

just dropped her off! When

5:46

a child finally detaches themselves from a controlling

5:48

mother, the shift is felt all through the

5:50

universe. Please stop calling her mother.

5:53

It stopped being normal after the 1930s. How

5:56

do you feel? like a thousand

5:59

pounds of... pressure lifted off. And

6:02

if you never live with her again, you get

6:04

to feel that way forever. Thanks

6:06

for the life hack. I'm

6:09

proud of you, taking this step. Thanks.

6:13

I'm probably driving on the same roads Dad

6:15

used to. You probably

6:17

are. Listen, I

6:20

know you're starting to have more questions about the family

6:22

history, but trying to find

6:24

answers is going to distract you

6:26

from the life you want. A boring normal life

6:28

still comes with questions that need to be answered.

6:31

Not when those questions are connected to Mother. I

6:34

told you! I know. Now

6:36

I'm doing it to annoy you. But

6:38

seriously, anything you're trying to figure out with

6:41

regards to Barbara may make your life very

6:43

hard.

6:43

Did you try answering these questions at some

6:45

point? Got an appointment with a

6:47

therapist yet? She's supposed to be the best. For

6:51

that area. If you don't connect with

6:53

her, she can recommend a better fit.

6:54

Next Monday, I'll see what

6:56

the therapist thinks of the dream.

6:58

You may be disappointed

7:00

in her answer. Probably some kind

7:02

of metaphor.

7:03

Well, I'll bring my A-game regardless.

7:06

That's not how therapy works. Besides,

7:09

you've been bringing your A-game your whole

7:11

life. Take it easy for once down

7:13

there in the sleepy south. Hey, what

7:16

are you doing your first night away from her? I'm

7:18

going to try alcohol and play my favorite

7:20

music very loud. Mmm, good

7:23

plan. Oh, you didn't answer

7:25

my question. I know. I gotta go.

7:27

Work shit. What city are you calling from? And

7:30

how's the covert mission going? I'm

7:32

doing boring diplomatic work in DC.

7:35

I don't believe you. But I love

7:37

you. Love you too, baby sis. Hi,

7:45

Catherine. I'm Ellie. Please sit. On

7:48

the couch? Wherever you feel most

7:50

comfortable. How about the floor? If

7:52

you want. Is this a test?

7:55

What do you mean? Like where I choose to sit

7:58

lets you know something about me. Most

8:00

everything we do says something about us, but no.

8:03

This is not a test. As in, there's no pass

8:05

or fail in where you choose to sit. I

8:07

choose the couch. OK.

8:10

This is my first time in therapy. Trying

8:13

therapy in your 20s is quite common. Some

8:15

people don't get around to it until much later and

8:17

can regret not doing it sooner. But

8:20

it's not for everyone, either. I want to talk about

8:22

the dream.

8:23

Dream interpretation. I already read a bunch

8:25

of stuff on that. I think this is something

8:27

else. I just call it a dream

8:30

to not sound crazy. Everything

8:32

I say here is confidential, right? That's

8:35

how therapy works. I

8:38

have fainting spells. Been happening

8:40

for a few years now. It's the

8:42

exact same thing every time. I

8:45

faint, I'm in a police station that

8:47

looks like it's from 50 years ago,

8:50

and I'm sitting behind a desk. A

8:52

uniform cop walks

8:53

up to me and says, detective.

8:56

Then what happens? That's it. Every

8:58

time. I've never been in a police

9:00

station, let alone one in the 1970s. You

9:04

could have seen a police station like that from a movie.

9:07

May have stuck with you. This feels like

9:09

a memory. You hear about

9:11

that kid who remembered his past life as a baseball

9:13

player in the 1940s? You knew so

9:16

much he shouldn't have at the age of like five.

9:19

Like reincarnation? I

9:21

don't know. I just thought that

9:24

with this confidentiality, I can

9:26

finally talk about this stuff. You

9:28

felt like you couldn't talk about it before.

9:31

With my mom, when the spell

9:33

started happening, she was concerned. But

9:36

not as concerned as I wanted her to be.

9:38

You know when you want them to be as freaked out

9:41

as you are, to make you feel like this is

9:43

important? I think we can call that empathy.

9:46

But when I told her about this dream memory thing,

9:48

then she freaked out. I got MRIs

9:51

and spent a few nights being monitored during

9:53

sleep. Nothing. And when

9:55

nothing else happened in the dream, she lost

9:57

interest, which I realized for the time

10:00

is what I really wanted. To not

10:02

be the focus of her attention. Why

10:05

do you say that? Barbara

10:07

can be intense. But I can be

10:09

intense, too. It's why I stayed with her

10:11

through college. I was on this trajectory.

10:15

Mom is like my partner in that. Dad

10:17

died when I was young.

10:19

Made Mom and I closer, I guess. So

10:21

why did you choose a school so far away?

10:23

After getting my master's, I tried to establish more

10:26

of my own life. So she...

10:28

I don't know how to put it. Dug

10:30

her claws. That's a really

10:32

strong image. Yeah, I

10:35

guess it is. I

10:36

escaped her grasp. I'm

10:39

not complaining. She provided

10:41

a great life. The trust

10:43

from my grandfather? We were provided

10:46

for. Well off, even. Did you feel

10:48

loved by her?

10:49

In

10:52

her own twisted way, yeah. It

10:54

did feel different from what I saw with my

10:56

friends' parents. Mom

10:58

was like this coach, motivational

11:01

speaker, and dictator all in one.

11:04

It's why Stern is so successful. I'm

11:06

on that track too. She instilled

11:08

that in us. She showed us the

11:11

hard side of life if we didn't work. So

11:13

we worked hard at everything. She

11:16

loves to brag about me,

11:18

but also somehow takes credit for everything

11:21

I do. So maybe she's not

11:23

so supportive. Do you think she's being intentionally

11:26

unsupportive? Or is it just

11:28

in her nature? Not

11:30

sure nature is the right framing, but we

11:33

all have dominant tendencies. Things

11:35

we develop early on, usually as defensive

11:37

mechanisms. I think all of her

11:39

support and focus on me is really about

11:41

her. How I make her look.

11:45

How can I emulate what she does? I

11:48

think she's obsessed with this idea of herself.

11:51

And I'm like an extension of that. Katherine,

11:54

you're describing a narcissist. Yeah,

11:58

I was afraid of that.

12:00

Are you okay?

12:02

Just... just a little anxiety. Looks

12:05

like more than a little. Here's some water. Thanks.

12:11

I'm in this program because it's

12:14

the same one my dad did. My

12:16

way of staying closer to him. He died when

12:18

I was so young. I'm sorry. When was that?

12:22

I was eight. He was my

12:24

whole world. world. I can imagine at that

12:26

age he was, then you had to deal

12:29

with an enormous loss. Stern.

12:32

He was... he tried to

12:35

be there as best he could. Relieved

12:37

when he checked in on me. I remember

12:40

not liking the idea of it being just

12:41

mom and I. How did mom

12:44

show up for you? I don't really remember.

12:47

Just that feeling of wanting someone else there

12:49

too. A buffer. When

12:52

I got older, the way she contextualized

12:55

it all, I swear it seemed like she's

12:57

happy dad was out of the picture. It

13:00

started to eat away at me, the seed

13:02

of an idea. Sorry,

13:08

I never really said this out loud before,

13:11

but I think my mom had something

13:13

to do with my dad's death. This realization

13:16

can feel like trauma, a new trauma

13:18

on top of the loss. Yeah, sure.

13:22

But I'm also finally starting to take action.

13:25

By coming down here, it's like I

13:27

had to choose. Mom's path or

13:29

dad's path. And by coming to Florida,

13:32

maybe I can finally get some answers. And

13:34

this brings up anxiety for you. Are

13:36

you not familiar with my family? I

13:39

don't look up new patients online. This

13:41

family trust.

13:41

It's big. Tens

13:44

of billions. It made

13:47

my mom very powerful. She's

13:49

cultivated this network of influence,

13:52

mainly political and corporate. What

13:54

would you do if you had to go against one of the most

13:57

powerful people in New York? to.

14:00

And

14:00

that person is your mom. And

14:03

your mom could be a malignant narcissist. Malignant?

14:07

What's that? The worst kind. Oh. Freaking

14:12

great.

14:18

Old Milk Latte for

14:20

Jared. Thank you. Catherine.

14:25

Yeah?

14:26

Sorry to interrupt. I'm the

14:28

TA in your genomics class. Jared? class. Jared? Yes,

14:30

hey, you weren't interrupting. Just

14:33

looked like you had a lot on your mind. Doesn't everyone?

14:37

Would you like to sit? Sure. You

14:40

made quite the impression in class last week. Professor

14:43

Wilkes accusing me of believing in reincarnation?

14:46

Very embarrassing. Well I was intrigued

14:49

and I'm sure a lot of other students were too. The

14:51

whole experiencing past lives thing,

14:53

it's a It's a bit personal for me. Really?

14:57

Yeah. But I'm sick of hearing myself

14:59

talk. Just blabbered about it in

15:02

therapy. Oh, okay. Wait.

15:04

We're not supposed to admit we go to therapy. Crap.

15:07

I think that's our parents' generation. Ah,

15:10

okay. Yeah. Our grandparents

15:12

never went to therapy. Our parents

15:14

went but lied about it. And

15:16

we get to freely admit we go.

15:18

Well, that's a relief. I

15:21

went as a kid. Parents divorced when I

15:23

was 12. Oh, I'm sorry. It wasn't

15:25

your fault. Or was

15:27

it? You got me! Hey,

15:31

can I ask if you know of any parties

15:34

happening?

15:34

This is a giant university. Throw

15:36

a rock outside any time of day, and

15:39

you'll hit one. Yeah, sorry

15:41

if this is coming out awkward. I

15:43

don't have many friends down here. You just moved

15:46

from New York. Yeah, so full

15:48

disclosure, I don't have any friends

15:50

down here. Are you asking me to be your

15:52

friend? We can give it a trial run.

15:55

I like that. Let's not commit just

15:57

yet. Exactly. But... The

16:00

perks will include more of my ramblings.

16:02

And with me, you get in on the

16:05

right parties. There are wrong

16:07

parties? There's a world

16:09

of difference between mid-20s and

16:11

late teens. You don't want to

16:13

be at one of those parties. I'll

16:16

take your word for it. Is

16:18

everything OK? There's this woman that keeps

16:20

glancing over at us. Where? Behind

16:23

you, in the corner. Holy shit. Excuse

16:26

me. Excuse me. Wow,

16:29

she got out of there fast! That

16:32

was weird, right? You don't

16:34

know the half of it. She

16:36

looks like we could be related. Yeah,

16:38

she kind of does. And I've never seen

16:40

that woman before in my life.

16:48

Hi, Mom. I'm in the

16:50

middle of a run. You have time

16:52

to run, but not call. The

16:55

agreement was once a week.

16:57

Everything

16:59

you are is because of me. You wouldn't be down

17:02

there if it wasn't for what I've done. So

17:05

the least you can do is call when you said

17:07

you would. You're

17:10

right. I apologize. I

17:13

know it's a poor excuse, but I've had a

17:15

lot on my mind. And filling

17:17

up the new place. Oh, I forgive

17:20

you. This is going to be your

17:22

new home now. So

17:24

use our interior designer. It's a two-bedroom

17:26

apartment. I doubt I can mess up

17:29

the Feng

17:29

Shui that much. Well,

17:32

tell me everything. Not much to tell.

17:35

Classes are going good. Any cute

17:37

boys. Mom. Make sure

17:40

they come from a good family and no musicians.

17:42

Jesus Christ! He

17:44

doesn't count. There's a guy.

17:47

We're friends. Do not sleep with your

17:50

friends. Mom! Jesus!

17:54

Are you at least smiley? A smile

17:56

that's masked being mortified.

17:59

What else?

18:00

i started therapy when

18:02

you do need therapy i'm just

18:04

giving it a test run but he writes

18:07

probably not going to do with that much if

18:09

at all which their name doctor

18:12

ellie balkans she's apparently

18:14

the best for this area

18:16

are you talking

18:18

about me mostly about

18:21

you know losing dad

18:23

as a kid and stuff because

18:27

it was my one session so

18:29

we were

18:30

getting to know each other you don't need

18:32

it you're like me we work

18:34

through problems him the bodies fall

18:36

where they may nice metaphor

18:40

you know when i mean years smart

18:43

and beautiful and people

18:45

live in a haystack take

18:48

it from me i don't think the world

18:50

is out to overheat me i'll

18:53

just keep my head down and work my ass off

18:56

keep your head never down

18:58

you are my daughter

19:00

okay everything

19:02

i do is where the better good

19:04

which includes you pay

19:07

do it just saw someone i knew i

19:10

need to call you back love you by

19:14

hey stop miners

19:17

are running clearly faster

19:19

than you

19:22

next day last

19:26

you're in heels no

19:28

kidding i saw yesterday

19:31

why are you following mom

19:33

send you to spy

19:35

on

19:37

the you don't know

19:39

the half a day or read a

19:41

reaper lady i'm

19:44

your sister

19:49

i am echo this of production of voyage

19:51

media the series is produced been up

19:53

and down robber might is christopher leech

19:56

and mm more directed by christopher

19:58

leech written by josh

20:00

store-y by Rachel Cosgrove

20:02

and Josh nadler derived from an original

20:04

concept by Rachel Cosgrove starring

20:07

nurita brawn when as Katherine additional

20:10

cast credits are available in the show notes editing

20:13

and sound design by Andres coca original

20:15

music by Derolas Gonzalez

20:17

if you're enjoying the show please leave us a

20:19

five-star review and Apple podcasts or anywhere

20:22

you're listening and and subscribe now for

20:24

future episodes.