0:00

Hey, TCAT fans. If you haven't

0:02

tried Audible yet, what are you

0:04

waiting on? Start your free trial

0:06

now. Audible is the home of

0:08

storytelling. You'll discover thousands of podcasts,

0:10

including your popular favorites. And Audible

0:12

offers an incredible selection of audio

0:14

books across every genre. Right now,

0:16

I'm listening to The Power of

0:19

Now. It's a wellness title. It's

0:21

all about living in the present,

0:23

living in the now, and not

0:25

worrying so much about the past

0:27

or the future. It's a great

0:29

listen, and I'm finding it

0:31

very fascinating. As an Audible member,

0:34

you can choose one title a

0:36

month to keep from their

0:38

entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers

0:40

and new releases. New members can

0:43

try Audible free. For 30 days,

0:45

visit audible.com/TCATT or text

0:48

TCATT to 500-500. MUSIC

1:24

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 369 of the True Crime

1:26

All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as

1:29

always is my partner in true crime, Mike

1:31

Gibson. Give me how are you? Hey,

1:33

I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm

1:35

doing very well. You and I just got

1:37

done recording our weekly Patreon thing that we do. We

1:40

did. And we played this

1:42

little game where I had you try to

1:44

guess celebrities and whether they were

1:47

born in the year that I was born or

1:50

the year that you were born. And I nailed it.

1:52

It was a little bit harder than I think you

1:54

thought it would be. Yeah, I got me. mixed

2:00

up a little bit. And it's easy to do.

2:02

For me, I think it's hard to tell how

2:05

old people are. Speaking

2:07

of Patreon, let's go ahead and

2:09

give our shout outs. We had

2:11

Amy May jump out to our

2:13

highest level. Hey Amy, thank you.

2:15

Wade Woodard. What's going on Woodard?

2:17

Jessica L. Hey Jessica. Catherine Einert's

2:20

daughter. Ah, thanks Catherine. Joey Bales.

2:22

There's Joey. Jane Hamlin. Well, thanks

2:24

Jane. Allison Clark. Well, hello Allison.

2:26

Leah Montgomery jumped out to our

2:28

highest level. Oh, that's awesome Leah.

2:31

Nurse Maria. Love a nurse. Okay.

2:34

Any nurse or Maria. Just

2:37

a girl who loves giraffes jumped out

2:39

to her highest level. Oh, you know

2:41

what? I love giraffes too. And last

2:43

but not least, Genevieve Plant. Hey, there's

2:45

Genevieve. And then if we go back

2:47

into the vault, this

2:49

week we selected Kimberly Mann.

2:52

That's awesome. Thanks Kimberly. Yeah,

2:54

I appreciate all the support.

2:56

The new Patreon support, the

2:58

continued support, gives right

3:00

now on Unsolved. We have an

3:02

episode out on Mallory Manning and

3:05

we're headed to New Zealand. And this

3:07

is New Zealand's, or

3:10

at least one of their

3:12

most high profile Unsolved murder.

3:14

It's really a brutal case.

3:16

Yeah, it was definitely a brutal case.

3:19

And for those that don't normally like

3:22

Unsolved, this is one

3:24

to listen to because although

3:26

technically it is Unsolved, there

3:29

are a lot of people who believe they

3:31

knew who did it. So yeah,

3:33

check it out. CrimeCon is

3:35

coming up quick. It's

3:38

the last week of May, I

3:40

think, into June, heads into

3:42

June. But if

3:44

you're planning ongoing, make sure you go

3:46

to crimecon.com, use our code

3:49

TCAT, T-C-A-T-T. That'll get you 10%

3:52

off your standard batch. And

3:54

you're going to be dusting off your cowboy

3:56

hat and your cowboy boots. Yeah,

3:59

it's in Nashville. to have some fun. So

4:01

we'd love to see out there. We'll have

4:03

a meetup like we do every year. Absolutely.

4:05

All right, buddy. Are you ready

4:07

to get into this episode of true crime

4:10

all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about

4:12

Rod Matthews. Rod Matthews was

4:14

once the youngest inmate in the

4:16

state of Massachusetts when he was

4:19

just 14 years old. He

4:21

beat another teen boy to death just

4:24

for the heck of it. That's a

4:26

scary thing. It's a very scary thought.

4:28

You know, murders are scary. Any

4:31

murder. The reasons behind

4:33

murders are scary. But to

4:35

me, when someone

4:37

says, I killed someone

4:40

just because I wanted to, or I

4:42

wanted to feel like what

4:45

it was like. I mean, those are

4:48

scary. It really, really is.

4:51

Rod planned the murder for at

4:53

least a month and he targeted

4:55

Sean Olet, a fellow freshman

4:57

who was new to town and didn't

4:59

have many friends. Sean Rennie

5:01

Olet was born on January 28th, 1972. He was

5:03

only 14 years old when

5:08

he was murdered. Sean was born

5:10

in California, but his parents soon

5:13

moved back home to Massachusetts.

5:15

They divorced when Sean was four. Sean's

5:19

mother, Jean Quinn, spoke to the

5:21

Canton citizen about her son. She

5:23

said Sean reminded her of Opie

5:25

from the Andy Griffith Show. Do

5:28

you remember Opie? Just a good old boy?

5:30

Never meaning no harm? I thought

5:32

you were going to go into the Dukes

5:34

of Hazzard theme song

5:36

there. Of course I remember Opie. I

5:39

used to watch the Andy Griffith Show all

5:41

the time. And Opie was kind of the,

5:43

you know, all American,

5:46

wholesome kid, right?

5:49

Oh yeah. He'd get in a little

5:51

troubles now and then. They weren't too

5:53

serious. Just enough so, you know, that

5:56

his dad could come in and help

5:59

him. Paul? Paul. Yeah, Andy

6:01

and Opie went on to to

6:04

do some pretty good things You

6:06

know Ron Howard has directed a

6:08

lot of great movies and

6:10

he played with the Fonz man Oh,

6:12

that's true. Yeah, I forgot about his happy

6:15

days Richie roll You know a

6:17

lot of times when you have these child

6:19

stars, it seems like their

6:21

life goes downhill Some

6:24

of them are very tragic stories. Oh, they

6:26

are. Yeah, Ron Howard's definitely

6:28

the exception because His

6:31

career just went kind of up and up

6:33

skyrocketed. Gene said he

6:36

was so handy He was the one

6:38

who took care of his sister Yvonne's

6:40

wheelchair That thing was a

6:42

well-oiled machine the two of them flying

6:45

down Randolph Street Yeah,

6:47

it was a good kid. Seems like it took good

6:49

care of his sister Yeah, I

6:51

did kind of want to talk about

6:54

this move right? California to Massachusetts Seems

6:58

like pretty polar opposite East Coast

7:00

West Coast, you know, the whole

7:02

Biggie Smalls versus You

7:05

want to get into the rap debate? No,

7:07

I was thinking weather right? That's

7:10

a big one and then kind

7:12

of vocabulary slash Accents

7:15

definitely gonna be a change. Yeah now

7:17

not for you. No, I'm good I can do

7:19

it right on right on the point no

7:22

matter where you are. That's exactly right. How

7:24

you like them apples I know That's

7:27

one of your go-to That

7:29

in my British Sean

7:32

also enjoyed fishing hockey baseball

7:34

basketball and building forts I

7:37

mean what 14 year old kid doesn't like to do

7:39

those things but making forts Oh

7:41

building forts Yeah, I think there are quite a

7:43

few 14 year old kids that maybe don't play

7:46

sports. I don't know that Oh, that's true.

7:48

But the forts. I mean, come on. I mean

7:50

you still make forts. No, we're sitting in one

7:53

right now Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot

7:55

of plastic sheeting

7:58

there is there's weird that I'm sitting

8:00

on top of one. It's very dexterity.

8:02

Yeah. You'll find out that now

8:05

I'm a little worried. No, but you know, back

8:07

in the day, building forts was fun, man. We

8:09

would build them out of

8:12

anything outside, whatever we

8:14

could find inside furniture,

8:16

pillow sheets. Oh,

8:18

my mom would hate it when I would take

8:20

like the good couch cushions or

8:22

the good blankets, quilts.

8:24

Did you have bad couch cushions?

8:27

Well, you know, he had that

8:29

front room that was like the no touch

8:31

furniture. That was big back in the day.

8:33

There was like one room that was for

8:35

show. Yeah. You didn't sit

8:37

on that furniture. No, no, no. Stay off

8:39

of that stuff. And then there was like

8:42

the main kind of living room where everybody

8:44

watched TV. You could

8:46

urinate on that one. Nobody should. I don't know

8:48

about it on that far, but I

8:50

don't know what else you grew up in. But yeah,

8:52

there was no urinating on anything. Um,

8:55

I always had at least one friend, if

8:57

not more, that had that front room or

8:59

the couch was encased like in

9:01

this hard plastic. Oh yeah. I'm thinking

9:04

how enjoyable could that have been for the adult?

9:06

Is this a collectible or are we saving this

9:09

for 40, 50, 60 years? Sean

9:12

and his sister Yvonne lived with their

9:14

mother. They had to move often so

9:16

that she could find better job opportunities.

9:19

It was difficult for Sean to cope

9:21

with moving and it affected

9:23

his behavior and great. That's

9:25

expected, right? If you're moving around that much,

9:28

you got to meet new friends. You

9:30

know, you have to basically

9:33

reinvent yourself each time. Well, and

9:35

let's say you're a person who's

9:37

not great at making friends. Would

9:39

it then be that much tougher for you?

9:42

I think so. Yeah, I do as well. He

9:45

was in danger of failing the seventh grade

9:47

and was once suspended for dropping a stink

9:49

bomb down a stairwell after he and his

9:52

sister were sent to live with their father

9:54

for a period of time. The stink bombs

9:56

were awesome back in the day. I

9:58

was never a big stink. I don't know

10:01

if you're on the receiving end of it. You should not be. Sean

10:04

showed improvement after the school system

10:06

put him in group therapy in

10:09

1985. Sean, his mother and

10:11

his sister moved to Canton,

10:13

Massachusetts. He struggled to make

10:15

friends. Sean was lonely when he

10:18

started high school because his

10:20

few friends from middle school attended

10:22

vocational school. And that was always rough.

10:24

I hate it that time, you know,

10:27

cause you'd have these great friends and

10:29

then some would go off

10:31

to vocational and some would

10:34

stay in the regular school system and

10:36

you just can never stay connected. You

10:38

know, it's not like today we have cell

10:40

phones and social media back then. I mean,

10:42

you just didn't have that stuff and you

10:44

just lost contact over time. Yeah.

10:47

I know it was tough on you when you

10:49

decided to, uh, to head off

10:51

to vocational school for, uh, beekeeping,

10:54

which I thought was a strange

10:56

class at the vocational school. But

10:58

you know what? I made the best honey

11:00

out there. You did. It was

11:02

heard about for many, many County, but

11:05

back to Sean, he was bullied

11:07

for his weight, his clothes, and

11:09

his earring. You know, and bowling was

11:11

pretty rough back then. Yeah. Well, as

11:13

we talked about it before, people

11:15

would zero in on one thing or

11:18

a number of things and they just

11:20

wouldn't let them go and, and

11:22

they were vicious. I think we

11:24

do better today with bowling.

11:27

I mean, I get it. We, we had

11:29

the cyber bullying and that's

11:32

a whole different level because people

11:34

can hide behind the screen and

11:37

do this act of bullying

11:39

and trying to be anonymous, but by

11:41

and large, there is a lot more emphasis

11:43

placed on bullying today than there would have

11:45

been when, when you and I were in

11:47

school. Yeah. Another freshman named Rod Matthews was

11:50

one of the few people who were friendly

11:52

to Sean, but it would later come out

11:54

that this was an act. Rod

11:57

Matthews was born on July 7th. 1972

12:01

as an adult rod would say that

12:03

he grew up in a dysfunctional family

12:06

because his father was unfaithful to

12:08

his mother which cause tension and

12:10

hostility he said he didn't feel

12:13

close to his family and

12:15

growing up in this environment. Contributed

12:17

to his stunted emotional

12:19

state according to the commonwealth

12:22

of massachusetts parole board. Coming

12:24

from the parole board to like the

12:27

term stunted emotional state is

12:29

being used for certain purposes.

12:32

Well it's probably something he thought about

12:34

in his jail cell you know come

12:37

leading up to a parole board hearing

12:39

obviously we're getting ahead of ourselves here

12:41

but. In the grand scheme

12:43

of things i'm not saying this

12:45

wasn't a dysfunctional family but it's

12:47

a far cry from. Some

12:50

of the things that we talked about in

12:52

the lives of children rods

12:54

mother janice told the boston globe

12:56

that rod was slow to start

12:58

talking she send him to

13:01

a speech therapist but he remained

13:03

below grade level in vocabulary and

13:05

had trouble articulating his thoughts. Massachusetts

13:08

paper the daily item reported that

13:11

rod had an IQ of one

13:13

thirty two so that's pretty

13:15

high. It is but look i have

13:17

problems with my speech my

13:19

vocabulary may not be the

13:21

best sometimes and

13:23

you know you just didn't get out the word

13:26

vocabulary i was hoping you didn't pick up on

13:28

that. And you know my cues

13:30

pretty pretty high like a hundred and

13:33

seventy something also it's dropped well yeah

13:36

i've had diminished my IQ

13:38

a little bit because i thought at one point it was

13:40

like two twenty four or someone it was like almost over

13:42

the max. How

13:45

can you be over the. Rod

13:51

was known as a prankster in

13:53

class clown any got in trouble

13:55

off he was prescribed ritalin at

13:57

age seven because of his problems in school.

14:00

His parents noted that he was not

14:02

tested or monitored while using the

14:04

drug. Yeah I don't know what kind of

14:06

testing they would have done back then While

14:09

you're on it and I mean

14:11

if you're leaving it up to the parents to

14:13

monitor how well or the teachers how well It's

14:15

working. I don't know how

14:17

that works. Well, they're not Professionals,

14:19

right? I mean they are but not in in

14:23

Medicine and you have to assume

14:25

the parents give a crap

14:27

about is it working or not? I

14:29

mean if their kids at school while they're on it, the

14:32

parents are probably just happy that their kid went to school

14:35

Ritalin is used to treat ADHD It's

14:38

a stimulant drug that can help

14:40

with attention and behavior problems. It's

14:42

also used to treat narcolepsy

14:46

I did not know that did you did you

14:48

fall asleep? Oh, oh, sorry. Yeah,

14:50

I did there for a second among

14:52

the more serious side effects or

14:54

mental mood behavior changes or Uncontrollable

14:58

muscle movement. Why get

15:00

those? Well, yeah, you rub your

15:04

Pants a lot people have

15:06

noticed it on the patreon

15:08

videos. So a little strange man

15:11

Well, I like the knee part of your pants

15:13

for clarifying according to

15:17

2016 data from the CDC about

15:19

62% of children aged 2 to 17 We're

15:24

taking medication for ADHD. That's

15:26

a big percentage It

15:28

is and my wife's a teacher, you

15:30

know, she talks about a lot a

15:33

lot of students are taking

15:35

this type of medication There's

15:37

an ongoing debate on whether Ritalin

15:40

is over prescribed to children with

15:42

ADHD I remember at one point

15:44

seeing some news stories about The

15:48

schools having concerns that you know These

15:51

prescriptions we sent to the school the school had

15:53

to have a place to lock them up monitor

15:58

the medication to make

16:00

sure that it was being used

16:02

for the students and not being

16:05

stolen and things like that. I don't know if that's still

16:07

out there today and I don't know

16:09

if the schools even won't probably don't want

16:11

that responsibility. No, is at least from my

16:13

experience that's not how it happens at my

16:15

wife's school. Now what she does say is

16:17

that a lot of times you

16:19

know they don't take their medication. She can

16:21

tell that they haven't taken it or

16:24

the some of these medications if

16:26

taken it like let's say six o'clock in

16:28

the morning they wear off so

16:31

at some point after lunch and then the

16:34

effects are noticeable. Rod

16:36

continued getting in trouble in middle school

16:38

and his mother often had to pick

16:41

him up late because he was in

16:43

detention. At one parents night

16:45

they asked if they should be concerned

16:47

about Rod but they were told that

16:49

Rod was a good kid and it

16:51

was just his age per the Boston

16:53

Globe. You know I had my fair

16:55

share of detention. I'm sure you

16:58

probably had your fair share too. Never,

17:00

never except for that one Saturday

17:03

where you know we had to

17:05

sit in the library you know it

17:07

was me the guy from the

17:09

wrestling team there was a couple of girls

17:12

that got in trouble. I'm sure you were

17:14

just called the Breakfast Club. Yeah we called

17:16

ourselves the Breakfast Club. But I'm thinking

17:18

you know our teacher is really

17:20

always honest with parents or

17:22

they just want to get through

17:25

the event of parent night and

17:27

get on home. I mean are you gonna sit there and

17:29

say hey your kid scares

17:31

the bleep out of us and

17:35

you probably should get him some

17:37

type of help. Well all teachers

17:39

are different obviously but my

17:42

thought is teachers are more

17:45

than likely probably pretty honest. They want

17:47

these children to get help. They want

17:50

the parents to know what

17:52

they're really going through. So

17:55

but the other thing to me was you know

17:58

how many kids

18:00

back then were, you

18:03

know, was it set about all, you

18:05

know, they'll grow out of it. Right. They

18:07

won't do that stuff when they get a little older.

18:10

I think it's probably said today too,

18:12

you know, with behavior issues, right? That's

18:14

just what kids at this age

18:16

do. They're eventually grow out of it. Don't

18:19

worry. Just got to put it up with it for a few more

18:21

years. Rod's pranks escalated as

18:23

he got older and he started to

18:25

become obsessed with setting fires. He

18:28

set newspapers on fire at home and

18:30

lit fires around town. He also put

18:32

firecrackers in the mouths of fish and

18:34

lit them. Okay. So this is a

18:36

problem. Yeah. We know that

18:39

fire starting, right? Can,

18:41

or obsession with fire can lead

18:43

to issues or can be

18:46

a sign. Yeah, potential

18:48

sign, potential sign. But he's

18:50

also hurting animals. So you've got

18:52

that as well. Experts

18:54

cited two key events that

18:56

proceeded the murder. Rod's

18:58

parents separated in September, 1986, which

19:02

was the beginning of his freshman year. That could

19:04

be difficult for some kids. Yeah, I

19:06

think most kids in October,

19:09

his sister rented a documentary called

19:11

faces of death, which depicts the

19:13

torture and execution of humans and

19:16

animals. This led Rod to want

19:18

to know what it was

19:20

like to kill someone. And that was

19:22

a scary flick back then.

19:25

And it was kind of like the

19:28

must watch, right? People were talking about

19:30

it around school. I remember it. Pretty

19:32

disturbing. And this was obviously

19:34

long before the days that you could

19:36

just jump on a computer and kind

19:39

of dial up whatever you wanted to

19:41

watch. You either had

19:43

to go rent this thing, probably have

19:45

somebody rent it for you because you had to be 18 maybe.

19:49

Or you had to go to a friend's house who

19:51

had already gotten it. But I

19:53

remember watching it. It was gruesome.

19:56

And I think they came out with additional.

19:59

Yeah, they had like. two or three other

20:01

ones. Rod also stopped

20:03

taking Ritalin about a week before

20:06

the murder then resumed taking it

20:08

daily. Experts would later discuss

20:10

whether or not the drug had

20:12

any influence on his action. In

20:15

October 1986, Rod told his friends

20:18

Robert Peterson and Jonathan

20:20

Cash that he wanted

20:22

to know what it was like to kill

20:24

someone. And we're gonna talk

20:26

about Robert and Jonathan quite a

20:29

bit. What they heard,

20:31

what they saw, what they knew,

20:34

and whether or not they should

20:36

have told someone. It'd be strange

20:38

if your friend came up to you and said, hey man,

20:41

I want to know what it feels like to

20:43

kill somebody. And as a 14 year old in 1986, if

20:47

one of your good friends said that, what

20:50

would be your takeaway? For

20:52

me, I'd be like, man, I hope he's joking or

20:54

he's got to be joking. But would you

20:56

have run to a parent,

21:00

an authority figure? And my

21:02

thought is most likely not. I don't think so. I

21:04

think you just think he's just joking

21:07

or he's just, I don't

21:09

know, having a strange day, man. When

21:12

you love someone, you protect them in the

21:14

best ways you can. That's why I recommend

21:16

simply safe home security. It's an advanced system

21:18

that protects every inch of your home and

21:20

it's backed by 24-7 professional monitoring

21:24

for fast emergency response for less than

21:26

a dollar a day. I've been using

21:28

simply safe for four or five years

21:30

now. It does everything I want it

21:32

to do at a great price. Simply

21:35

safe was named best home security systems

21:37

of 2024 by US

21:39

News and World Report. Simply safe offers

21:42

everything you need for whole home protection.

21:44

They have advanced motion sensors and entry

21:46

sensors to protect doors, windows, and rooms,

21:48

but they also have a collection of

21:51

hazard sensors that detect fire, flooding, and

21:53

more. This system is easy to set

21:55

up yourself. You don't need any special

21:57

tools or know-how, but if you don't

21:59

want yourself, you can get one of their

22:01

expert technicians to come to your house and

22:04

install it for you. Plus, with the 60-day

22:06

risk-free trial, if you don't love your system,

22:08

you can return it for a full refund.

22:10

SimpliSafe even covers return

22:12

shipping. Order now to

22:14

get 20% off any

22:16

new SimpliSafe system with

22:19

FastProtect monitoring. Don't wait.

22:21

Visit simplisafe.com/TCAT with one

22:23

T. That's simplisafe.com/TCAT. There's

22:25

no safe like SimpliSafe.

22:27

With HelloFresh, you get

22:29

farm-fresh, pre-portioned ingredients and seasonal

22:31

recipes delivered right to your doorstep.

22:33

Skip trips to the grocery store

22:35

and count on HelloFresh to make

22:38

home cooking easy, fun, and

22:40

affordable. That's why it's America's

22:42

number one meal kit. Whether you're trying

22:44

to save money, eat better, or just

22:46

stress less, HelloFresh is here to help

22:48

you do all three. Say hello to

22:50

your most delicious year yet with fresh

22:52

ingredients and chef-crafted recipes at a price

22:55

you'll like delivered right to your door.

22:57

They say breakfast is the most important

22:59

meal of the day, and HelloFresh agrees.

23:01

In fact, they're giving all subscribers free

23:03

breakfast for life. That means you'll enjoy

23:06

a totally free breakfast item with every

23:08

single HelloFresh delivery. My wife and I

23:10

have been using HelloFresh for a few

23:12

years now, and we absolutely love it.

23:15

We get a couple of meals a

23:17

week, so that's at least two nights

23:19

that we don't have to plan and

23:21

we don't have to order out. We

23:24

cook the meals together. It's fun, and

23:26

the food is amazing. Go to hellofresh.com/TCAT

23:28

free, and use code TCAT free

23:30

for free breakfast for life. One

23:33

breakfast item per box while subscription

23:35

is active. That's free breakfast for

23:38

life at hellofresh.com/TCAT free with code

23:40

TCAT free. HelloFresh, America's

23:42

number one meal kit. Rod

23:46

started talking about killing

23:48

a boy named Josh Tordoff

23:50

because he read faster

23:53

than him. Seems like a strange motive

23:55

for murder. I mean, just because a

23:58

kid can read faster, is that a reason to? Wanna

24:00

kill him? Well, it seems

24:02

to me as though he's in the selection

24:04

process and maybe I said motive

24:07

But I don't know that he has

24:09

a motive other than he wants to know what it's

24:11

like to kill someone He planned

24:13

to kill another boy named Chris Patreski

24:15

and invited him to his home But

24:18

Robert Peterson warned him not to go

24:21

rod then decided to kill Shawn

24:24

Olet According to the state

24:26

parole board Rod chose Shawn

24:28

because he would be easy to get

24:30

to and he Probably would

24:32

be the least missed because he didn't

24:34

have many friends It sounds

24:37

like he's thinking like a serial killer

24:39

a little bit. Yeah, I mean How

24:42

many serial killers have we talked about who

24:45

have targeted their victims?

24:48

based on the idea

24:50

that they would be easy to get

24:53

alone, let's say or that

24:56

they wouldn't be Missed as

24:59

easily as some other people.

25:01

Yeah, the Boston Globe

25:04

reported that Rod said Shawn bugged

25:06

him and called him names Rod

25:09

wrote a note to a teacher saying

25:11

that he liked to light

25:13

fires and wanted to kill people He

25:15

hated the note was not

25:17

reported until after Shawn was

25:20

murdered You know as a teacher to

25:22

get this note, it has to be alarming But

25:24

the fact that you choose not

25:26

to report it, I think you have to

25:29

second-guess yourself on that one I'm sure

25:31

this person did after the

25:33

murder in today's world. You

25:35

definitely would report it Oh, I think

25:38

teachers are taught to

25:40

report anything like this today

25:43

on November 17th 1986

25:45

Shawn told his parents he was

25:48

saving up to buy firecrackers from

25:50

Rod They gave him

25:52

permission to buy them Rod planned

25:54

to kill him on November 19th But

25:57

school was canceled because of a

25:59

snowstorm So he planned to kill him

26:01

the next day. On November 20th,

26:03

Rod invited Sean to his house

26:05

after school to play pool and

26:07

build a fort. The students

26:10

had early dismissal that day. Rod

26:12

planned to lure Sean into the

26:14

woods with the promise of building

26:17

a fort and selling him firecrackers.

26:19

Sean was excited when Rod invited

26:21

him over because he

26:24

was part of the end crowd,

26:26

according to Gene Quinn. Well, you wanna

26:28

be part of the end crowd? Yeah, looking

26:30

back at this point

26:32

in my life when I was 14

26:34

years old, 15, 16 in high school,

26:37

it was a big deal to try to be

26:39

a part of the end crowd. It

26:42

seems stupid now that I'm 50 years

26:44

old. Right. But it

26:46

was a big deal back then. But you

26:48

wanna fit in with the cool kids.

26:51

And I don't know how much that has changed.

26:53

I really don't. You know, here

26:56

Sean's mom is saying that

26:58

Rod was part of the end

27:00

crowd. That's why Sean was so

27:02

excited that Rod wanted to hang

27:05

out with him. According to Rod's

27:07

account to a psychiatrist, which was

27:09

published by the Boston Globe, the

27:11

two were shooting pool in his basement. Around

27:14

3 p.m., Rod suggested that they

27:16

go look for a place to build a fort.

27:19

Rod retrieved one of his sister's softball

27:21

bats before they left. He told

27:24

Sean he needed to return it

27:26

to someone. Rod led

27:28

the way at first, but then asked

27:30

Sean to switch with him, saying his

27:32

feet were cold and he wanted to

27:34

walk in his footsteps. Rod

27:36

did this to hide his own footprints

27:38

in the snow. He's thinking like

27:40

a killer again. And I say that because

27:42

he's 14. Yeah. I

27:45

mean, there's definitely some premeditation.

27:47

We've talked about that.

27:49

There's planning. And then

27:52

there's kind of this

27:54

execution of something that,

27:56

yeah, maybe he saw in a movie, on

27:59

a TV show. or whatever, but

28:01

just the mere fact that he's trying

28:03

to cover his tracks, tells

28:06

you something. Rod said to

28:08

himself, if I'm going to do it,

28:10

I'd better do it now. He

28:12

hit Sean in the back of the head with

28:14

the bat, Sean fell to the ground. Rod

28:17

told the psychiatrist, I couldn't believe I

28:19

was doing this. I felt nervous.

28:23

He said he blacked out for 20 seconds,

28:26

and then hit Sean three to four more

28:28

times. Sean called out for

28:30

help after the first hit. According

28:32

to the Canton citizen, Sean

28:34

said, God help me as

28:36

he was attacked. Rod hit him

28:39

eight times total, crushing his

28:41

skull. Afterwards, he

28:43

used snow to clean the blood off

28:45

the bat and left the wood. Brutal

28:48

attack. Yeah, it's a brutal attack.

28:51

I do want to break some of this down.

28:54

Him saying that he

28:56

was thinking, I can't believe I'm

28:58

doing this. And that he felt

29:01

nervous. Okay, you should feel nervous

29:04

if you're about to beat

29:06

someone to death with a baseball

29:09

bat. But the I

29:11

can't believe I'm doing this, to

29:14

me, doesn't come out as

29:16

this is wrong. I shouldn't

29:18

be doing it. It comes

29:20

out in, this is

29:22

something I've been wanting to do for

29:24

a while now. I can't believe I'm

29:26

finally getting to do it. I'm getting

29:28

my opportunity. Sickening, really, if

29:30

you think about it like that.

29:32

And then there's this effort to

29:35

use snow to clean the blood

29:37

off the bat. So, you know,

29:39

kind of just like the footprint, trying

29:42

to clean off evidence

29:45

using snow while

29:47

still carrying the bat. Rod walked to

29:49

his friend Robert Peterson's house and told

29:51

him what he had done. He

29:54

took Peterson to see the body. When

29:56

Peterson asked why he did it, Rob

29:59

said, just for the heck of it. See,

30:01

this is when he's a kid though, right? Because

30:04

if he was thinking like a killer, I don't

30:06

think he takes somebody back to the scene of the crime. No,

30:09

most killers wouldn't want someone

30:11

else to know what they've done, but

30:14

it's almost like he's bragging about

30:16

it. Gibbs, come

30:18

look, see what I've done. So,

30:21

you know, there is a little bit

30:23

of a strange element here for me

30:25

where he's writing down

30:28

to a teacher that he wants to

30:30

kill someone or he's thinking about killing

30:32

someone. He's telling his friends

30:34

that he wants to know what it's like to kill

30:36

someone, but yet he's trying

30:39

to cover his tracks. He's wiping off

30:41

the bat and then he

30:43

goes and gets a friend and says, look, here's

30:45

what I've done. Peterson called

30:47

Jonathan Cash and told him

30:49

that Rod killed Sean, but

30:52

Cash refused to believe him for

30:54

several days. Rod asked him, do

30:56

you believe me? Cash said

30:58

no. So Rod asked then where

31:00

is Sean? Cash refused to

31:03

believe it was true until days

31:05

later when Rod and Peterson took

31:07

him to see the body. So

31:09

now another kid has seen the body. Yeah,

31:11

brought somebody else in who knows about

31:14

it. Apparently Rod threatened that

31:16

he would kill them both if

31:18

they told anyone. Well, well,

31:21

do you take that threat seriously? A

31:23

lot of people make threats. I

31:25

do think you would take a threat more

31:27

seriously if it was made

31:30

while you were looking at a dead body. And

31:33

I think you're correct. So

31:36

the case started off as a

31:38

missing persons investigation. Rod

31:40

was questioned four times. On

31:43

the day of the murder, he denied

31:45

having any knowledge of Sean's whereabouts and

31:47

said he hadn't seen him all day.

31:49

He was questioned again two days later

31:52

after a bus driver read about

31:54

Sean's disappearance and said she saw

31:56

him get off the bus with

31:58

Rod. remember, you

32:01

know, back being in middle

32:03

school or even in high

32:05

school before I could drive, it was

32:07

very common. Like if you wanted to

32:09

go to a friend's house after school, you

32:12

just got on that friend's bus. Yeah,

32:14

you could just bus hop anywhere. I

32:17

don't know if that's still true today or

32:19

not, but it was very

32:21

common back in the day. Rod

32:23

continued to deny knowing anything

32:26

about Sean's disappearance during his

32:28

third interview. In his

32:30

fourth interview, he admitted that Sean came

32:32

to his house, but suggested

32:34

that Sean might have run away

32:37

to the town of Hull, Massachusetts

32:39

or all the way to California.

32:42

Well, you want to kind of distance yourself from

32:44

this whole Sean thing, right? So you're gonna put

32:46

some things out there. Maybe the investigators

32:48

will bite down on it. But

32:50

are they not going to think it's strange

32:52

that he doesn't bring it up in the

32:54

first three interviews and then all of a

32:57

sudden in interview four, he admits

32:59

that, oh yeah, by the way, Sean was at my

33:01

house. Yeah, I think it's a problem for him. The

33:03

police noted that Rod was always

33:06

calm and sometimes smiled during

33:08

his interviews. Disturbing?

33:11

Yeah, I think it's a little

33:13

strange. Most people

33:15

when they're being questioned about a

33:18

murder probably aren't always very

33:20

calm and are probably

33:22

not smiling very much. In

33:24

early December 1986, Jonathan Cash went to see Sean's

33:28

body alone. He took no

33:30

to the location and then

33:33

wrote an anonymous letter to

33:35

the police informing them that

33:37

Rod killed Sean O'Lan and

33:39

described the location of the body.

33:42

Probably ate at him, sitting there thinking about it

33:44

all the time and knew that

33:46

he had family that was

33:49

missing him. But he also

33:51

had this threat hanging over his head.

33:53

So maybe he figured that the

33:55

way to do it was to

33:58

send the anonymous letter. That

34:00

way, there's no way Rod's going to

34:03

know it was me. Sean's body was

34:05

found less than a mile from his home

34:08

on December 11th, 1986.

34:11

A packet of bottle rockets was found

34:13

on his person, which seemed to confirm

34:15

that he was going to buy firecrackers

34:17

from Rod. In an interview with

34:19

the AP, Jean Quinn said that

34:22

on the day Sean disappeared, she took

34:24

a nap and had a dream

34:26

that he was lying in the woods with

34:28

a serious injury. He was found

34:31

in a similar position to the one

34:33

in her dream. And that

34:35

mother's intuition. Yeah, we've talked about

34:37

it before. It kind of gives

34:39

you chills a little bit. There's

34:41

something to it. I'm convinced of that.

34:44

I don't know how it works.

34:46

I don't know exactly what it is, but we've

34:49

heard it way too often. And it's a

34:51

famous saying, right? I mean, you always hear

34:53

it growing up. You

34:56

know, mother's intuition can't deny it.

34:59

Something to do with the connection there. Rod

35:02

Matthews was arrested on December 13th

35:05

on a charge of delinquency by

35:07

reason of murder. His case

35:09

initially went through juvenile court. However,

35:12

on May 27th, 1987, the

35:15

judge ruled that Rod Matthews would

35:17

be tried as an adult. That's

35:20

a big moment in the case. Yeah, it's

35:22

huge, right? You got a 14 year

35:24

old kid. They're trying to decide what

35:27

to do with him. If

35:29

he's tried as a juvenile, then

35:31

the options become much

35:34

more limited. Yeah. He's probably

35:36

sent somewhere until he's what 18, 21,

35:39

whatever the age is. If

35:42

he's tried as an adult, then who

35:45

knows what it could end up being. Rod

35:48

Matthews was indicted for first

35:50

degree murder in Norfolk County

35:52

on July 5th, 1987. In

35:56

1987, Jean Quinn testified on behalf of a bill.

36:00

bill, pending in the state

36:02

legislature, that would allow judges

36:04

to sentence youths between 14

36:07

and 17 to adult prison for

36:09

murder, vehicular homicide, or

36:12

manslaughter. Youths. I want to

36:15

say you sounded like Joe Pesci there.

36:17

Two youths. Yeah. It's a

36:19

very tough word for me to say. It was tough for him

36:21

to say in that movie. She

36:23

also told the AP about

36:25

two disturbing incidents of harassment.

36:28

In January 1987, Gene saw

36:31

that someone spelled red rum

36:33

in shaving cream above Sean's

36:35

bedroom window. Okay. That's

36:38

going to scare me. Yeah.

36:40

A little bit. That's a little

36:42

freaky. I'm automatically going

36:44

to go to Danny saying, red

36:47

rum, red rum. Okay.

36:50

I don't hear that in my head. I can't help it.

36:52

I can't help it. In June

36:54

of that year, someone threw a rock

36:56

through the kitchen window. They

36:58

wrote Yvonne's next on the

37:01

rock. We talked about it,

37:03

right? Yvonne is Sean's sister. Both

37:05

of these are pretty nasty.

37:08

Yeah. I don't get why somebody would

37:11

taunt the family like that. No. The

37:14

red rum is basically

37:16

taunting the murder of Sean.

37:18

Right. Then you have this

37:20

rock with Yvonne's next written

37:22

on it that is basically taunting

37:25

the she's going to be murdered.

37:27

How long did it take you to realize that red

37:29

rum was murdered backwards? Oh, it is?

37:31

I did not know that. How long did

37:34

it take me? I don't know. Less time

37:36

than you. That's all I know.

37:38

Ron's attorney, John White, asked the

37:40

judge to dismiss the indictment or

37:42

return the case to juvenile court. He

37:45

also informed the judge he

37:47

would present an insanity defense

37:49

at trial. On October 13,

37:51

1987, a judge took

37:54

under advisement a motion to dismiss

37:56

the murder charge. The defense indicated

37:58

that Rod was diagnosed

38:00

as atypically psychotic and

38:03

that mental illness interfered with his judgment

38:05

and behavior at the time of the

38:07

murder. In December 1987, Dennis Clark,

38:11

the president of the Citizens

38:13

Commission on Human Rights International,

38:15

told the UPI that withdrawing

38:17

from Ritalin can be devastating

38:19

for a child. He cited

38:22

the Rod Matthews case as

38:24

an example. Clark said

38:26

it was a classic example of

38:28

psychosis brought on by

38:30

Ritalin and triggered by withdrawal from

38:33

the drug. He added he was

38:35

seven days into withdrawal. He

38:37

was experiencing some of the

38:40

most classic symptoms of amphetamine

38:42

delusions, the intoxication,

38:44

delirium, and delusional

38:46

disorders associated with amphetamine

38:48

withdrawal is almost a

38:50

blow-by-blow description of what

38:53

the Matthews child went through. Well

38:55

I mean typically with some

38:57

medication there's a certain way

39:00

to cycle off of them. Yes, a

39:02

lot of these drugs are not just stop

39:05

cold turkey type of drugs

39:08

but this is a pretty big

39:10

statement if you think about it because

39:13

he is basically

39:16

blaming the murder on Ritalin

39:20

and the withdrawal from Ritalin.

39:23

That's a pretty strong statement to make. Yeah

39:25

it really is. Jury selection

39:27

for Rod's trial started on February 29th

39:29

1988. Testimony

39:32

started on March 2nd. According

39:35

to WBUR, Rod Matthews was

39:37

the first juvenile in Massachusetts

39:39

to be tried as an

39:42

adult and I was kind of blown away

39:44

by that. To be honest with you, 1988 I

39:48

just assumed that before then there would have been

39:50

some more. Yeah you think there would have been

39:53

like a kid 16 or 17 at that

39:56

point that would have been tried through the system?

39:58

Not apparently not. The prosecution

40:00

argued that Rod planned the murder

40:03

for almost a month and had

40:05

a list of possible victims. As

40:08

quoted by the Daily Item, Norfolk

40:10

County ADA Peter Casey said, he

40:12

was deliberate in the plan and

40:15

put it into effect efficiently

40:18

and effectively. So it's

40:20

always interesting, right, to see how

40:23

the prosecution comes out of the gates.

40:26

Yeah. And then the defense comes

40:29

out as well. You know,

40:31

here, the prosecution is laying

40:34

it on thick that, okay, it

40:37

was premeditated. He planned it

40:39

out. He was very

40:41

efficient in the way that he

40:43

carried it out. And he also

40:46

had a list of possible victims.

40:48

So they're kind of ruling out a snap

40:51

situation, I think, right? This wasn't,

40:53

we got in a fight and,

40:56

you know, I hit him and he died. This

40:59

was, hey, planned it out

41:01

for a month. Could have been three

41:03

or four different people. He

41:05

chose Sean and he carried

41:07

it out. Yeah. I think the prosecutors are

41:09

trying to set the tone for the trial.

41:12

I think it's their opportunity to attempt

41:15

to influence the jurors and

41:17

how they see how this

41:20

murder went versus how the defense is going

41:22

to try to sell it to him. The

41:25

defense described Rod as a mentally

41:27

ill child from a troubled home

41:30

and argued that he had been

41:32

suffering from a severe mental disorder,

41:35

which was exacerbated by the use

41:37

of Ritalin. Rod

41:39

had a long history of bizarre

41:41

behavior and reached out for help

41:44

before the murder. Defense attorney

41:46

John White told the jury per

41:48

the Daily Hampshire Gazette, in

41:50

this case is the

41:53

insidious element of mental illness

41:55

with the overlying thread of

41:57

Ritalin. They're really counting on. The

42:00

use of the ritalin and the

42:02

mental illness yeah well and i

42:04

think they probably have to

42:07

because it's going to be

42:09

hard to get around the pre meditation.

42:12

It's going to be hard to get

42:14

around this list of suspects and

42:17

it's going to be hard to get around

42:19

the fact that he did kill this boy

42:22

so it's more of. What

42:25

he did it but here's the reason

42:27

why he did it let's

42:29

debate that and whether or

42:31

not he should be held

42:34

accountable for his. Rodds

42:37

friends jonathan cash and robert

42:39

peterson testified that rod talked

42:41

about killing someone around halloween

42:44

as the weeks progress he

42:47

made a plan to lure the victim

42:49

to a wooded area and beat

42:51

them with a baseball bat. Okay

42:54

that's exactly how the murder went down

42:56

according to peterson he planned to

42:59

cut off the victim's legs and

43:01

toss them. It's like he

43:03

was going for more of a gruesome scene. Yeah

43:06

we know it didn't play out that way but

43:09

if he had done that it

43:11

definitely would have made the crime scene

43:14

even that much more gruesome rod

43:16

named several potential victims but

43:18

he chose shawn olette because

43:21

he was. New to town

43:23

according to peterson rod

43:25

said shawn would be the least

43:27

missed because he didn't have that

43:30

many friends. So we're

43:32

inside the mind of a fourteen

43:34

year old here and this

43:36

is a point that i really didn't

43:38

understand all that much i

43:40

get it shawn didn't have a lot of friends.

43:43

He was new to town maybe

43:45

he didn't fit in well maybe he just didn't

43:47

had time to make a lot of friends. But

43:50

i'm not sure how much that would have factored

43:52

and to him being missed we're

43:54

talking about a fourteen year old he lives

43:57

at home he has a mother he's.

43:59

thing to be missed. There's somebody that's

44:02

going to say, we're shot at.

44:04

Yeah. We're not talking about, you know, a

44:06

30 year old individual who

44:08

has no connection

44:10

to family and has few friends.

44:13

That's a different scenario. Yeah. Shopify's

44:16

already taken the cash register

44:19

online, helping millions sell

44:21

billions around the world. But did

44:23

you know that Shopify can do

44:25

the same thing at your retail

44:27

store? Give your point of sale

44:30

system a serious upgrade. With Shopify,

44:32

Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing

44:34

millions of businesses worldwide. Get hardware

44:36

that fits your business. Take payments

44:39

by smartphone, transform your tablet into

44:41

a point of sale system or you

44:43

Shopify's POS Go mobile device for a

44:45

battle tested solution. Do retail right with

44:48

Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per

44:51

month trial period at

44:53

shopify.com/wondering all lowercase go

44:56

to shopify.com/wondering to take

44:58

your retail business to

45:00

the next level today.

45:02

shopify.com/wondering. Angie's

45:05

list is now Angie, and we've heard a

45:07

lot of theories about why. I thought it

45:09

was an eco-move. For your words, less paper.

45:12

It was so you could say it

45:14

faster. No, it's to be more iconic.

45:16

Must be a tech thing. But those

45:18

aren't quite right. It's because now you

45:20

can compare upfront prices, book a service

45:23

instantly, and even get your project handled

45:25

from start to finish. Sounds easy. It

45:27

is, and it makes us so much

45:29

more than just a list. Get started

45:31

at angie.com. That's A-N-G-I. Peterson

45:35

said he warned other potential victims

45:37

not to go to Rod's house

45:39

and he knew Rod planned to

45:41

lure Sean to the woods with

45:43

the promise of fireworks. Peterson

45:46

said he told Sean on the day

45:48

of the murder to have Rod bring

45:50

the fireworks to school instead. So

45:52

according to Peterson, he

45:55

really was trying to warn

45:59

different people. people don't go to

46:01

Rod's house because he knew

46:03

what Rod was planning to do. Now,

46:06

he didn't go to anyone else with that

46:08

information. Right. And that's something

46:11

that I'm sure he regrets

46:13

to this day. Yeah, it's definitely unfortunate that

46:15

he did not. Peterson

46:17

and Cash said that Rod took

46:19

them to the body after a

46:21

school pep rally and that afterwards

46:23

they went to a pizza parlor

46:26

together. That's a little strange. Right.

46:28

So, let's go check out the body. Okay.

46:31

Who's up for pizza? And then grab

46:34

a slice. Yeah. It's

46:36

odd. Jonathan Cash testified that he

46:38

knew about the plot, but

46:40

he didn't warn Sean because

46:43

he didn't believe Rod would go

46:45

through with it. I think this

46:47

is kind of a common theme

46:50

that we've touched on in

46:52

a number of episodes that

46:54

have involved younger individuals. Yeah.

46:57

I think it's easy for kids

47:00

to believe that their friends are just full of shit

47:02

and they're just say things for

47:04

attention. Yeah, bragging. Yeah.

47:06

I mean, if you were 14 years old and

47:09

a really good friend came up to

47:11

you and said something like that,

47:14

would you as a 14 year

47:16

old back in the 1980s have

47:18

taken them seriously? Yeah, I don't think I

47:20

would have. I don't know that I would

47:22

have either. Now, after the

47:24

fact, once the murders

47:26

occurred and once this person

47:29

has taken me to see the body,

47:31

all of that obviously changes. Of

47:34

course. Yeah. And

47:36

then it comes down to, okay, were they

47:38

really threatened and were they so

47:41

scared of the threat that at

47:44

that point they just felt that they couldn't

47:46

tell anyone. Jonathan

47:48

said that in the month leading up

47:50

to the murder, the three of them

47:53

had at least five conversations about which

47:55

classmate would be the best to kill.

47:58

Cash believed Rod was obsessed with the murder.

48:00

obsessed with his plans, but he still didn't

48:02

think he was serious. Okay,

48:04

five conversations about who to

48:07

kill is quite a few.

48:09

Yeah, I think at that point, for me,

48:12

my attitude would have changed a little bit and said,

48:14

you know what, I think

48:17

he might actually want to do this. We

48:19

either need to find a new subject to

48:21

talk about because I don't want to keep

48:23

talking about who's going to be killed or

48:26

I need to tell

48:29

someone because I think he's serious. And or

48:31

reevaluate who you're hanging out with. Yeah, that's

48:34

a good point as well. Cash

48:36

testified that Rod selected two

48:38

other boys before he killed

48:40

Sean. Rod gave details about

48:42

he would lure the victim to his

48:44

house, what weapon he would use,

48:46

and how he would dispose of the body.

48:49

At one point, Rod planned to go with

48:51

a classmate to the back of a local

48:53

mall, mace the victim, and

48:56

stab him to death. He's put some

48:58

thought into this. Into a

49:00

number of different scenarios with a number

49:03

of different people. Cash

49:05

testified he snuck out of his

49:07

house at 1am one night and

49:09

went to see Sean's body alone.

49:11

He told three coworkers at his

49:14

part-time job about the murder, but

49:16

didn't give details. His coworkers

49:18

urged him to go to the police, but

49:20

he refused. Again, was

49:22

it because he was so scared? At

49:24

this point, the murders already occurred, so

49:27

he knows how serious

49:29

it is. And obviously, he's eating

49:31

at him, right? He's getting out of bed at one

49:33

o'clock, going out, taking a look

49:36

at the body, trying to talk to somebody

49:38

about it. He just, at

49:40

that point, didn't take the next step and

49:42

tell the right people about it. That will come

49:44

later. Cash also said

49:46

that they warned a boy named Chris

49:48

Petresky not to go to Rod's house

49:50

after school because Rod would

49:52

fire bottle rockets at him. They

49:55

did not mention the murder. So

49:58

I think we have to talk Gibbs about... You

50:00

know a couple of these boys, I

50:03

mean what were they thinking after

50:05

they found out that Shawn

50:08

Ouellette was murdered and after they

50:10

found out that they were on

50:13

the list first. I Think

50:15

you won first be like think thank

50:18

goodness. It wasn't me, but

50:20

also how tragic it was Shawn

50:22

and Then

50:24

I think you'd wonder why why would he want to

50:26

hurt me? What did I ever do to him? Beyond

50:29

his list. Yeah, you'd have a lot of questions Cash

50:32

said that he thought that rod and Peterson

50:34

were joking when they said Shawn was dead

50:37

He believed Shawn ran away But

50:39

confirmed that rod took them to see

50:41

Shawn's body when they had early release

50:44

from school pathologists George

50:46

Katz's Testified that Shawn was hit

50:48

at least three times on the

50:50

head before he died a

50:53

baseball bat was taken from Rod's home That

50:56

had traces of blood and a bone

50:58

fragment Embedded in the woods,

51:00

you know as good as he was trying

51:02

to hide his footsteps and clean the bat

51:04

off in the snow The

51:06

big mistake he made was keeping the murder weapon.

51:09

Why not burn it? Why not dispose of

51:11

it somewhere? Why still

51:13

have the bat where it can be

51:15

found and test it for blood and

51:19

fragments Because he's 14

51:21

years old. I think it just

51:23

goes to show you People

51:25

think it's easy to

51:27

get rid of blood and

51:29

it's just not no And I'm

51:31

sure he didn't know that there was a piece of

51:34

bone fragment in there. He must have missed that according

51:37

to the Boston Globe Dr.

51:39

John D'Agno a Harvard psychologist

51:41

who conducted two sessions with

51:43

rod Testified that rod

51:45

spoke in a robotic monotone

51:47

during his evaluations, which was

51:49

a sign he had severe

51:51

mental Disorders he

51:53

believed rod was experiencing

51:56

Transient psychotic episodes for an extended

51:58

period of time time before the

52:01

murder, Rod told him he was

52:03

obsessed with the thought of

52:05

killing someone. Dagno testified

52:08

that Rod had several disorders,

52:10

including the inability to adjust

52:12

to social norms or feel

52:15

remorse. Dagno said that Rod's

52:18

habit of smiling in inappropriate

52:20

situations could be an indication

52:22

of schizophrenia. The jury

52:25

saw the letter Rod wrote to

52:27

health teacher Frank Tricomi a

52:29

month before the murder. The Boston

52:31

Globe published the letter which stated, My

52:33

problem is that I like to do

52:35

crazy things. I like to light fires.

52:38

Lately, I want to kill people. I

52:41

hate and I want to light houses on

52:43

fire. What should I do? And

52:45

I think this is what the defense

52:48

was referring to when they

52:50

said that Rod Matthews tried

52:52

to reach out for help prior

52:55

to the murders. And

52:57

we talked about this earlier. I

52:59

do think it's very unfortunate

53:02

that this teacher didn't

53:04

take additional steps to

53:07

show this letter to someone

53:09

in the administration trying to figure

53:11

out what was the best

53:14

avenue or the best course of

53:16

action. And I'm sure that person

53:19

felt a lot of guilt afterwards.

53:21

I don't know how you couldn't. Yeah, they'd have

53:24

to feel responsible, but some

53:27

level guilt. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And

53:29

like we said today, I think

53:32

this type of letter would be taken

53:34

much more seriously. And

53:36

maybe it should have been in the 1980s. I

53:39

don't know. Defense Attorney John

53:41

White alleged that Tricomi knew Rod

53:43

wrote the letter, but ignored it.

53:46

And he testified that he didn't act

53:48

on the letter because he wasn't sure

53:50

Rod was serious. Rod approached him the

53:52

day after he received it and asked

53:55

if he read it. Tricomi

53:57

tried to talk to him about

53:59

it, but Rod... shrugged and walked

54:01

away and Frank

54:03

didn't follow after him. Again,

54:06

nobody does anything because

54:08

they don't believe that

54:10

Rod is serious about

54:12

either what he's writing or

54:15

what he said. Just seeking attention. Trichome

54:18

did not tell other school authorities

54:20

about the letter until after Rod

54:22

was arrested. Rod's mother

54:25

testified that his behavior problems were

54:27

a source of frustration for their

54:29

family. Rod had a withdrawn

54:32

attitude and he showed signs of fire

54:34

obsession in the fall of 1986. Okay,

54:36

obsession with fire, that's one to

54:41

be very concerned about. I mean,

54:44

you know, being withdrawn can be

54:46

as well, but I think a

54:48

lot of kids, especially teenagers, go

54:50

through periods where, you

54:52

know, they withdraw. Yeah. My

54:55

kids like to spend time in their room when

54:57

they were younger in high school.

54:59

I withdraw still today. You do. You're

55:02

withdrawing right now. I didn't want to

55:04

mention that, but yeah. You keep backing the chair up

55:06

for something wrong. Getting closer and closer to the stairs.

55:09

Two psychiatrists testified for the

55:11

defense and disagreed on whether

55:13

Rod was legally sane during

55:15

the murder. Dr. Susan Wolf

55:17

found that Rod was suffering

55:19

from mental illness of

55:21

a chronic and subtle nature. She

55:24

believed Rod had the ability to

55:26

conform his conduct to the standards

55:28

of the law, but his

55:31

mental illness impaired his ability

55:33

to do so. And

55:35

I really kind of want to break this down because

55:37

there's a couple of things in here that I

55:39

thought were interesting.

55:42

One was that she

55:45

used the word subtle. I found

55:47

that intriguing. And

55:50

then he had the ability to

55:53

conform his conduct to the standards

55:55

of the law, but he

55:57

also had a mental illness that was

56:00

impairing his ability to

56:02

do that. So she's saying what? He

56:05

could do it, but it was harder for

56:07

him because of his mental illness. I

56:09

didn't understand that completely. Now,

56:13

Dr. Norman Bernstein testified that

56:15

Rod wasn't able to prevent

56:17

himself from killing Shaw. He

56:20

could understand the criminality of his

56:22

actions, but could not conform his

56:24

actions to the standards of the

56:26

law. So that's where they differ.

56:29

Conforming to the standards

56:31

of the law? Yeah, I think his

56:33

ability to. Two experts

56:35

testified that Rod did not

56:38

experience symptoms of psychosis and

56:40

that Ritalin could not have

56:42

triggered his violent behavior. A

56:45

court-appointed psychiatrist testified that

56:47

Rod suffered from conduct

56:49

disorder but did not

56:51

experience systems of psychosis.

56:54

Dr. Marcel Kinzborn testified that

56:56

standard doses of Ritalin should

56:58

not trigger violent behavior. He

57:01

noted that the drug could

57:03

not totally eliminate volatile

57:06

behavior. So this is all interesting

57:09

testimony, and we see this in a

57:11

lot of cases, especially where you have

57:13

a lot of experts in the field

57:15

of mental health testify.

57:17

Right. I do wonder how

57:20

the jury took the

57:22

two defense experts not

57:25

quite being completely

57:27

on the same page. Yeah, I'm

57:29

sure there was some debate in that jury

57:31

room. Earlier, another expert

57:33

testified that the drug might have

57:36

made it harder for Rod to

57:38

control his behavior. The same expert

57:40

testified that Rod decided

57:42

to kill someone after

57:45

watching the Faces of Death

57:47

documentary. And I don't know how

57:49

an expert could know that other

57:51

than Rod told them that.

57:54

I don't know how you can expertly

57:57

say or definitively say that

57:59

the... documentary caused

58:01

Rod to want to kill someone. Because

58:04

otherwise you're going to say every time there's a horror

58:06

flick or another documentary

58:10

that someone watches, those documentaries, they will

58:12

get you. I knew you were going

58:14

to get me on that, but that's

58:16

how I, how I say it. But,

58:18

uh, I don't know. Like you

58:20

said, how do you know that? How can you,

58:22

you can't know that infinity say that. Yeah.

58:25

I don't know how you can say that

58:27

or definitively or, you know, in

58:29

closing arguments, defense attorney, John white

58:31

told the jury to consider expert

58:34

testimony that rod was suffering from

58:36

a chronic mental disorder at

58:38

the time of the murder, according to

58:41

the Boston globe. White said, there isn't

58:43

one of us at some time in

58:45

his life who hasn't looked upon a

58:47

child and wondered what was going on

58:49

in his mind. That is the

58:51

difficulty of this case. What

58:53

was going on in rod Matthews

58:56

mind at the time of this tragedy.

58:58

And it is a tragedy. Oh, this

59:01

definitely was a tragedy. Yeah. He's

59:03

right about that. And I

59:05

also think that the defense attorney

59:07

is correct in saying the

59:09

difficulty in the cases, what was

59:11

going on in R and rod

59:14

Matthews mind at the time of

59:16

the tragedy, you know, when it

59:18

comes to mental health, how big

59:20

of a role or did it

59:23

play any role now the Ritalin

59:25

thing. I don't know how much

59:28

that would play in the minds of

59:31

the jury. You had kind

59:34

of competing testimony on

59:36

that, but I think you

59:38

had a number of people saying that

59:40

that shouldn't have played any role. I

59:43

wonder in the jury, if

59:46

any of them or their kids

59:48

were taking Ritalin at that time,

59:51

and if that had an impact on

59:53

their thought, did Ritalin have something to do

59:56

with this or not? I think if I was

59:58

on the jury and my kid was. taken

1:00:00

Ritalin and I didn't see behavior changes, I'd

1:00:02

be like, I don't even know what they're

1:00:04

talking about. I mean, that's the thing

1:00:06

about the jury, right? You

1:00:08

have these people, they bring

1:00:11

their own life experiences with

1:00:14

them. Yeah. Now they're supposed

1:00:16

to be impartial. They're supposed to listen

1:00:18

to the testimony, but how can

1:00:20

it not seep in? Yeah, I think some of these

1:00:22

things, I think it's hard to control. ADA

1:00:25

Peter Casey told the jury

1:00:27

that Rod acted with deliberate

1:00:29

premeditation and with extreme

1:00:31

atrocity and cruelty. Rod

1:00:33

knew right from wrong. He methodically

1:00:36

planned the crime and tried to

1:00:38

cover up what he had done

1:00:40

by telling false stories. And

1:00:42

I think you can absolutely say

1:00:45

that most of that is correct. He

1:00:48

did premeditate the

1:00:50

crime. Yeah. It was extreme. There

1:00:53

was a lot of cruelty there. And

1:00:55

then, you know, he was methodical

1:00:57

in the way that he tried to cover

1:00:59

it up and he told false stories. The

1:01:02

one big piece

1:01:04

of that statement that

1:01:06

is going to be at the center

1:01:09

is whether or not Rod knew right

1:01:11

from wrong. I'm sure that's what

1:01:14

a lot of the testimony was about.

1:01:16

We talked about the experts, the mental

1:01:19

health experts. Did he know

1:01:21

right from wrong at the time he

1:01:23

committed the murder? On March

1:01:25

10th, 1988, Rod Matthews

1:01:27

was found guilty of second degree

1:01:29

murder. He was sentenced to life

1:01:32

in prison with the possibility of

1:01:34

parole. So I think from

1:01:36

that verdict, it's

1:01:38

pretty clear that the jury felt

1:01:41

as though Rod Matthews did know

1:01:44

right from wrong, but they went

1:01:46

with second degree murder. Rod's

1:01:48

father, Kenneth said that Rod was sick

1:01:50

and should be in a mental hospital

1:01:53

per the Boston Globe. He added, he was

1:01:55

crying for help. If we had known

1:01:58

he had written that letter, we. would

1:02:00

have been able to help him. Maybe

1:02:03

they would have, or maybe they wouldn't

1:02:05

have. Yeah. We don't really know what

1:02:07

they would have done, but you can

1:02:09

understand what he's saying. Right. Rod

1:02:11

wrote this letter. Why were we

1:02:13

not told about it? Why

1:02:16

wasn't a bigger deal made of it? And

1:02:18

I think it's a valid concern.

1:02:21

Oh, I agree. And I think if I was

1:02:23

Sean's family, I would say the same thing. Oh,

1:02:26

absolutely. Because then you're

1:02:28

in the area of could

1:02:30

this murder have been prevented? Could

1:02:33

Sean still be alive? Would

1:02:35

Rod never have gone on trial?

1:02:38

Would he have never committed this murder? There's a

1:02:40

lot of what if. Right. At

1:02:42

this time, Rod was the youngest inmate

1:02:44

in the state. He had to

1:02:46

undergo 60 to 90 days of evaluation. They

1:02:50

had to figure out, you know, how

1:02:52

to house him, which I'm

1:02:55

sure is difficult for a 14-year-old.

1:02:59

I know they put him in protective custody

1:03:02

for the evaluation period. I

1:03:04

don't know because it really wasn't in the

1:03:07

research what happened to him after that. I

1:03:09

can't imagine they just let him loose with

1:03:12

the general population made

1:03:15

up of adults. I'm

1:03:17

going to guess they kept him in

1:03:20

protective custody until he was 18, but

1:03:23

you would hope. But if you're Sean's

1:03:25

family, you're probably thinking, go ahead

1:03:27

and let them wonder among Jim

1:03:29

pop. Yep. I'm sure. They probably

1:03:31

did. Rod's first parole hearing

1:03:33

took place on December 6, 2001. He

1:03:37

was denied parole and had a second hearing on

1:03:39

May 15, 2007. He

1:03:42

was denied parole again. Rod

1:03:45

was eligible for a hearing in 2012,

1:03:48

but requested to postpone the hearing.

1:03:51

And I hear that about inmates all

1:03:53

the time. I never quite understand why

1:03:56

that is. Well, maybe

1:03:58

they're not ready to. Maybe

1:04:01

they think if they get out, how are they going

1:04:03

to make it out there? And they get scared. And

1:04:05

then they say, you know what, let's postpone this. I'm

1:04:08

not ready yet. Hmm. Yeah,

1:04:10

you could be right.

1:04:12

That never actually entered my mind. I just

1:04:14

assumed most people in prison want to get

1:04:17

the heck out. But, hey,

1:04:20

during his third hearing on March 29, 2016,

1:04:22

Rod said, per WBUR, as sick as it sounds,

1:04:28

I wanted to prove that I

1:04:30

could murder him. And it does

1:04:33

sound sick, but it also sounds

1:04:35

like, you know, he's

1:04:37

being pretty honest. Sean's

1:04:39

mother, Jean Quinn, has

1:04:41

told multiple news outlets that she

1:04:44

is afraid of Rod being released

1:04:46

and that she speaks out against

1:04:48

his parole for the safety of

1:04:50

the community. And I think, you

1:04:52

know, that's something that a lot of victims'

1:04:55

families have to do or feel like

1:04:57

they have to do. They have to

1:04:59

attend all these parole hearings.

1:05:02

And it's kind of like

1:05:04

another hardship for them. They've

1:05:06

already dealt with the death of

1:05:08

their loved one. And now they

1:05:11

have to try to keep their loved

1:05:13

ones killer from being set free.

1:05:16

As quoted by CBS Boston, Jean

1:05:19

Quinn said at the 2016 hearing,

1:05:22

I have forgiven you, Rod, but

1:05:24

there's a difference between forgive and

1:05:26

forget. I have been able

1:05:28

to survive through all of this because I

1:05:31

have done that. And there

1:05:33

is a difference between forgive and forget. Yeah.

1:05:35

Yep, there absolutely is. You and I sometimes

1:05:38

talk about would we be able

1:05:40

to forget. I

1:05:42

don't think anybody forgives. No,

1:05:45

it's the are you able to

1:05:47

forgive? I think Jean is saying

1:05:50

she had to do that to be

1:05:53

able to survive and move on.

1:05:55

Yeah. Rod was

1:05:57

denied parole later that year. Rod

1:05:59

had a another parole hearing on June

1:06:01

8th, 2021. In

1:06:04

his opening statement, he apologized

1:06:06

for the crime and said he

1:06:08

felt remorse for his actions. He

1:06:11

acknowledged the impact on Sean's

1:06:13

family, his family, and

1:06:15

the community. Okay,

1:06:18

that sounds like a good start for

1:06:20

parole hearing. Yeah. He

1:06:23

acknowledged that he started lighting fires as young

1:06:25

as nine years old. He said

1:06:27

it made him feel relief and

1:06:30

he admitted to setting anywhere from

1:06:32

30 to 50 fires. That's

1:06:36

a massive amount of fires. It is. The

1:06:39

board asked him about his motivation for

1:06:41

the crime. Rod said it

1:06:43

was difficult to accept that he

1:06:46

committed such a crime. At

1:06:48

the time, he had no concern for others

1:06:50

and he did not have emotions

1:06:53

that would have prevented him from

1:06:55

committing murder. He admitted to planning

1:06:57

the murder without considering the aftermath

1:07:00

of the consequences of his actions.

1:07:03

Rod was asked directly, why did you

1:07:05

murder? And basically he gave

1:07:07

another indirect answer where he

1:07:10

discussed his family

1:07:12

problems. And he

1:07:14

talked about his father cheating

1:07:16

and he called it

1:07:18

a disruption that made

1:07:20

him capable of murder. He

1:07:23

talked about the fact that he was detached,

1:07:26

emotionally disturbed. And

1:07:28

he said, there had to be something

1:07:30

that progressed over the years to get

1:07:33

to that point where when

1:07:35

my family broke down, I was not able

1:07:37

to deal with it, but I

1:07:39

can't tell you what it actually

1:07:41

was. The

1:07:43

thing here is he never actually

1:07:45

answered the question. No,

1:07:47

he's avoiding it. He

1:07:50

danced around it, which is

1:07:52

strange because Earlier on,

1:07:54

he said a number of times, I wanted

1:07:56

to know what it felt like to kill

1:07:59

someone. He said, That I wanted to prove

1:08:01

that I could murder Ham. It

1:08:03

it. Seems like in this parole hearing.

1:08:05

He. Doesn't want. To. Answer the

1:08:08

question of why he committed the

1:08:10

murder. On February seventeen,

1:08:12

two thousand and twenty two,

1:08:14

the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Parole

1:08:16

Board concluded that Ryan Mathews

1:08:19

was not a suitable candidates

1:08:21

for parole. He. Is eligible

1:08:23

for another parole hearing. Later.

1:08:25

This year. So. Gibbs As

1:08:28

we wrap up this case. To.

1:08:30

Me You know it is a

1:08:32

very interesting one. You

1:08:34

have a fourteen year old kid who

1:08:36

kills another fourteen year old kid. He

1:08:39

has said it various term. It.

1:08:42

Was just for the heck of it. You

1:08:44

know, because I wanted to know what it's all

1:08:46

white to kill someone. And then I

1:08:48

think you know when you dissect the trial.

1:08:51

It for. Me: Comes.

1:08:53

Down to. The. Premeditation

1:08:55

the planning. The.

1:08:59

Multiple possible victims.

1:09:02

In him what he did decline of try to

1:09:04

get away with it afterwards. Verses.

1:09:07

All. Of the different testimony

1:09:09

about. His. Mental Health.

1:09:11

And. Whether or not he

1:09:14

knew right from wrong or

1:09:16

could send form. To.

1:09:18

The standards of law. And obviously

1:09:20

we know what the. The. Jury

1:09:22

decide right. But. There's no

1:09:24

doubt in a he was a he was

1:09:26

a troubled child. He. Developed an

1:09:29

obsession. With. Fires he

1:09:31

developed an obsession with the

1:09:33

idea of murdering someone. There.

1:09:36

Was the argument that Ritalin

1:09:38

possibly contributed to his violent

1:09:40

behavior? As each expert witnesses

1:09:42

can have. Disagreed.

1:09:44

On that so he's I don't

1:09:46

go anywhere until he can. Talk.

1:09:49

To the Parole Board. As if

1:09:51

he was. The. Guy from Shaw said.

1:09:53

Oh. We finally ways the cards on

1:09:56

the table and they were like okay

1:09:58

well that show the i just I

1:10:00

don't understand. That. Last parole

1:10:03

hearing. I'm. Not saying lady.

1:10:05

Now I just don't understand it from

1:10:07

his perspective. right? Why? Not

1:10:09

just answered the question, We.

1:10:12

Know the parole board once

1:10:14

the to hear. A

1:10:16

series of thing. The. Remorse and

1:10:18

all that it seem like he had

1:10:20

bad or at least he. Put.

1:10:23

It on like he had a year. By that

1:10:25

he had it. Why? Not answer

1:10:27

the question that there is a vast

1:10:29

him twice. Your. Once you start

1:10:31

to dance around, it. You're. Pretty

1:10:33

much saying I don't wanna be let

1:10:35

out. Maybe back to your point. Maybe

1:10:37

he doesn't I don't know. mean if

1:10:40

you think about it, he's been imprisoned

1:10:42

his whole adult life. isn't. Yeah.

1:10:44

Says ask yourself. Step.

1:10:46

On out to this. New. World. That's

1:10:48

what it would be like to him. Was.

1:10:50

Hey what's that likes for me? What?

1:10:53

Am I option? Yeah. When. I

1:10:55

have. The cell here. That's all

1:10:57

mine. I. Know I might not be

1:10:59

all your sweat, might not be your immigrants

1:11:02

sharing it with a guy named Baba. As

1:11:04

true for all under. The. You know,

1:11:06

but you know your meals or come from me

1:11:08

that serve you know you're gonna get. Some.

1:11:10

Type of health care. You. Know. Per.

1:11:14

Animal may maybe he just does one out.

1:11:17

So. Maybe he's more of a

1:11:19

Brooks than he is Red? Yeah,

1:11:21

Possibly. Through don't know we

1:11:24

will see but that's it for our

1:11:26

episode on Rod Matthews, we had some

1:11:28

voice mails gives you want to check

1:11:30

those out this year I'm. Home

1:11:33

I can get all my name is horrible.

1:11:35

I live in Cleveland for. Sale.

1:11:41

On. I'm a

1:11:43

big. Fan yeah I knew

1:11:45

so much as say they. Are.

1:11:48

among other topics for what he says.

1:11:53

Oh. How's the winds?

1:11:55

Ill. Kicking his

1:11:57

later. It

1:12:00

happened in 1928 and it was in Mariloma, California. They

1:12:09

did make a movie on it in 2008 by

1:12:11

Clint Eastwood. It's

1:12:15

a really good movie. I

1:12:18

think it would be a great one

1:12:20

for your edition and

1:12:22

I hope you have a great day

1:12:25

and keep your own time ticking. Thanks.

1:12:28

Bye. Thanks for the voicemail.

1:12:31

Definitely have heard of that case. We've

1:12:33

had it on the list for years. Not

1:12:36

sure why we haven't done it yet. I don't know. I've

1:12:38

seen the movie. Yeah. Yeah. I

1:12:41

saw the movie too. I don't remember

1:12:43

it all that well. I vaguely remember

1:12:45

not understanding it a lot,

1:12:48

which is very strange because pretty

1:12:50

much anything Clint directs

1:12:52

is awesome. It was good. I

1:12:55

remember that. I remember going out to the ranch in the

1:12:57

movie. Maybe I need to watch it

1:12:59

again. I probably wasn't paying all that

1:13:01

much attention to it. You do that

1:13:04

sometimes when you watch movies. Yeah. A

1:13:06

lot of times I'm watching it in the background so

1:13:08

I get lost. Once I get lost, you know how

1:13:10

it is. You get lost in a movie. You

1:13:13

don't know what's going on. I don't do that. No.

1:13:15

I'm on spot. You're on spot. You

1:13:18

never get lost in anything, dude. Lost

1:13:21

in the sauce. All right, buddy.

1:13:23

We did have something in the mail

1:13:25

bag. Okay. This week.

1:13:27

I'm on the stop. I recorded another

1:13:30

voicemail, but it didn't come through.

1:13:33

Just one voicemail this episode. But

1:13:36

Danielle Kirby, AKA

1:13:38

Lil Dixie, sent

1:13:40

us this big sampler pack

1:13:42

of beef jerky. We

1:13:44

know how much beef jerky you

1:13:46

love. I love it too. I know. But

1:13:49

I do eat a lot of beef jerky. You do.

1:13:51

And this one is like, it's got some

1:13:54

exotic stuff in there. You know, they say you are what

1:13:56

you eat, jerk. I've been

1:13:58

waiting on that one. Have you? Yeah,

1:14:01

I think you could have crafted it a little

1:14:03

bit better if you've been waiting a long time.

1:14:05

You could really land that a little bit. No,

1:14:07

no, but I got it. I got it. All

1:14:10

right, buddy. That is it for another

1:14:12

episode of True Crime All the Time.

1:14:14

So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe

1:14:16

and keep your own time ticking. The

1:14:54

wait is over. So far

1:14:56

you're not losing. The only thing you're losing

1:14:59

is my patience. Quickly, I see that.