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1:41

Hello,

1:41

everyone, and welcome to episode two

1:43

ninety one of the True Crime all the time unsolved

1:46

podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with

1:48

me as always is my partner in True Crime

1:50

Mike Gibson, give me how are you? Hey, I'm

1:52

good. How about you? I'm doing well. Good.

1:54

We are taping right before Thanksgiving.

1:57

I don't even know if we said this on tea cat,

1:59

but

1:59

I wanna wish everybody who

2:02

celebrates. Yeah. A

2:03

happy Thanksgiving. Happy turkey.

2:06

And speaking of Thanksgiving, we put

2:08

out a Patreon episode on Saturday

2:11

that takes place around Thanksgiving.

2:13

Yeah. about Joel Guy Jr.

2:16

The guy who killed his parents for

2:18

money and

2:19

more than killed him.

2:20

It is a nasty. It was a brutal

2:22

episode. Yeah. NASA episode. No

2:24

doubt. And then we have an episode

2:27

down on TCAT that that

2:29

takes place in the same area.

2:31

near Knoxville, Tennessee, about

2:34

a

2:34

young

2:35

man named Riley Gull who

2:38

fatally shot his sixteen year old

2:40

girlfriend

2:41

while she was sleeping. And it's it's

2:44

a different case for us. It is.

2:46

I mean,

2:46

they went after him for first degree murder

2:49

He argued, and his defense attorneys

2:51

argued that he was only trying to scare

2:53

her. He was trying to win her back. It

2:55

went too far and didn't mean to kill

2:57

her. But it's a very thought

2:59

provoking episode. I think there'll be lot

3:01

of people sharing their opinions

3:03

about it. Can't wait to hear those. Let's

3:05

go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had

3:07

Nicole Munoz. Hey, Munoz.

3:10

Morbid god. What's up? Morbid. Eyla.

3:13

Karen Nick. What's going on, Karen? Mollie

3:15

Powell. Thank you, Powell. Tabitha Church

3:17

Ward. What's going on, Tabitha? Natalie Pasteura.

3:21

Pastora. Ryan Hope. Hey, Ryan.

3:23

Lisa Marie Hawkins. There's Hawkins.

3:25

Georgia Penney. Hey. Thank you, Georgia. Michelle

3:27

Bennett. Hey, Michelle. Randy

3:29

Zehrer. That's awesome, Randy. Hey,

3:32

Adam. Nicola Furlong. Well, thank

3:34

you, Nicola. Melanie Hutton. Hi,

3:36

Melanie. Martin's Julie.

3:38

Well, what's up, Julie? Kelly, guys. Hey,

3:40

guys. And last but not least, Kimberly

3:43

DeBean. DeBean. And then

3:45

if we go back into the vault, this

3:47

week we selected Kate Fleming

3:49

-- There's Kate. -- to appreciate all

3:51

that support And then on PayPal,

3:53

we had donations from Christine

3:55

Hyde. Hey. Thank you, Hyde. A very large donation

3:58

from Karen Hartberg. And wow. Hartburg.

4:00

And a happy birthday donation

4:03

to Ayesha Shihto from

4:05

Hakim and the kids. Happy birthday,

4:07

Ayesha. Yeah. Absolutely. Alright,

4:10

buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode

4:12

of True Crime all the time on Soul?

4:14

I'm ready. We are talking about the

4:16

mysterious death of Andre

4:18

Rolle. And I just got

4:20

done talking about our t cat episode

4:22

saying that one was a pretty thought

4:24

provoking episode.

4:26

There's a lot of questions that I think

4:28

people have. I think there are gonna

4:30

be people who are on different sides of the fence

4:33

about what happened,

4:35

what should have happened, how everything went

4:37

down. I could say the same

4:39

thing about this episode. I

4:41

think there are questions. that

4:43

a lot of people have about what

4:45

really happened to Andre Rolland,

4:48

doctor Wilkin? So Andre Rolland

4:50

was just fourteen years old. on

4:53

March twenty fourth nineteen eighty nine,

4:55

when he made plans to meet his brother

4:57

down the block at the basketball

4:59

courts. They were gonna play a pickup

5:01

game after school, something

5:03

that I did, you know, day

5:06

after day after day, something

5:08

many kids have done, for a

5:10

very long time. Yeah. I say throughout time. I

5:12

mean, you see pick up games going on

5:14

everywhere. His

5:15

brother Tunarrived,

5:18

but didn't see Andrey. Andrey's

5:20

young body was later found hanging from

5:22

a tree, and his death was immediately

5:25

ruled a suicide. But

5:27

pretty quickly, many details came

5:29

to light, the sparked questions, and

5:31

the case angered. Many people

5:33

who learned about its many inconsistencies.

5:36

Many in the public and on the internet

5:39

want to know what really happened

5:41

to Andre Rowland in Columbia,

5:44

Missouri. Andre's brother,

5:46

Christian, and his wife, Natasha,

5:48

continued to search for answers surrounding

5:51

Andre's death, The inconsistencies

5:54

and conflicting details. The crop

5:56

up have led many

5:58

people to question whether he was murdered.

6:01

According to Andre's family, the

6:03

police didn't appear to put much effort

6:05

into investigating his

6:07

death Essentially, leaving

6:09

it to the family to search for answers.

6:11

It's been thirty three years

6:13

since Andre was found dead. And his

6:15

family led by the efforts

6:18

of his younger brother, Christian, continues

6:20

to investigate the case and keep

6:22

Andree's story alive, hoping that

6:25

one person with the vital

6:27

information needed to break the case

6:29

will come forward. They believe

6:31

Andre's case is solvable. even

6:33

after all these years. His family

6:35

continues to contact journalists and

6:38

magazines about André's

6:40

case, but they're disappointed. that

6:42

they never receive many responses.

6:45

Christian and Natasha made their room

6:47

six part documentary on Andre's

6:49

death and their resulting investigation,

6:52

which they posted to YouTube in two

6:54

thousand nineteen. In addition

6:56

to the original articles that the family

6:58

is capped, and preserved over the

7:00

years. They spent hours at the

7:02

library searching out newspaper

7:04

articles about the case so that

7:06

they could be as accurate as possible.

7:09

According to the Columbia Tribune,

7:11

Andre Montes Roland was

7:13

fourteen years old in nineteen

7:15

eighty nine. He was the seventh grader at

7:18

Jefferson junior high. Andre

7:20

was born on November sixteenth nineteen

7:22

seventy four. He was one of seven

7:24

siblings in the close knit family with

7:27

three girls and four boys who lived

7:29

in the ClearView subdivision

7:31

of Columbia, Missouri, with their

7:33

mother whom everyone called

7:35

Miss Norma. He was said to have

7:37

been personable and friendly,

7:39

and his easygoing nature attracted

7:42

a lot of friends. It's been

7:44

said that there were rumors going

7:46

around school that Andre

7:48

was dating a white girl, but

7:51

Christian has said that he doesn't

7:53

think that was true because

7:55

his brother would have confided in

7:58

him if he had been.

8:00

But it

8:00

said the brothers were really close and

8:02

you

8:02

know me coming from having two

8:04

brothers myself I know

8:06

grown up. We were really close and we always

8:08

told each other everything. But there's

8:10

also some families

8:11

I know that the brothers are you're

8:13

a part and they don't tell each other

8:16

anything. Yeah. I think it varies

8:18

from family to family. All

8:20

brothers are a little different.

8:23

But I think the reason

8:26

why we have to talk about this rumor

8:28

is because it comes up.

8:30

Obviously in this case, as

8:32

a possible moat. Sure. For

8:34

murder. Yes. Andre

8:36

had a lot of friends. He was

8:38

popular with the girls They

8:40

loved his easy laugh, warm

8:42

smile, and handsome, stylish

8:45

appearance. He was smart. He got good

8:47

grades in school, and he

8:49

loved all types of sports, especially

8:51

football. He played on a

8:53

community team in the park called The

8:55

Mighty Michaels. any war

8:57

number forty three. Andrey

8:59

dreamed of playing professional football

9:01

when

9:01

he was older. There's a lot of

9:03

kids that dream that they're gonna play professional

9:05

football when they're older. Football,

9:07

baseball, basketball. I

9:09

mean, when you're a young kid,

9:12

those are some of the first

9:14

dreams I think that you have, when

9:16

you start to get into sports, you

9:19

see these people on television, you're like,

9:21

that's gonna be me. Yeah. problem

9:23

is the percentage of

9:25

kids that actually get to that

9:27

level is so small. I don't even know what it

9:29

is, but obviously, it's gotta be less than one

9:31

percent. Yeah. It's pretty much way less.

9:33

Yeah. I remember reading an article once in a

9:35

paper that it it broke it

9:37

down from if you were a top player in

9:39

high school, your odds of getting

9:41

to

9:42

college, through college. And

9:44

if

9:44

you could even get to pros, you know,

9:46

what those odds were, and it was fractional. Yeah.

9:49

Yeah. Very small. According to

9:51

Jack magazine, on March twenty

9:53

fourth nineteen eighty nine, which was

9:55

good Friday, the brothers arrived

9:57

home from school on their

9:59

individual buses and were met

10:01

by their grandmother who lived with

10:03

them. They were waiting for their mother

10:05

to arrive home, to take them to play

10:07

in a basketball game at their

10:09

church. To pass the

10:11

time, the two brothers decided to walk

10:13

down to the basketball courts on

10:15

North Autumn Drive to play a

10:17

pickup game and get in some last

10:19

minute practice. As the

10:21

brothers left the house, Christian had to use the

10:23

bathroom and told Andre to go

10:25

ahead without him that he'd meet

10:27

him at the

10:28

courts. But

10:29

despite only being a few minutes

10:31

behind, when he arrived,

10:33

Christian couldn't find Andrey. He

10:35

thought Andrey must have changed his mind

10:37

and gone back home. So

10:40

Christian jogged home to look

10:42

for his brother. Christian didn't see any

10:44

other kids outside during this

10:46

time. He was upset after he

10:48

walked in the door because

10:50

Andre didn't answer his calls.

10:52

So Christian waited at home

10:54

for his mother and Andre

10:56

to arrive. When miss

10:58

Norma got there, she

10:59

asked Christian where Andre was.

11:01

but

11:01

he her he didn't know. So he and his mother

11:04

got in the car and they drove

11:06

into town looking for Andre along the

11:08

way. They stopped at Norma's

11:10

sister's house, who the kids

11:12

called Ant Anna, and within

11:13

minutes of their arrival.

11:16

Anna's

11:16

mother received a very

11:18

disturbing phone call.

11:20

A friend called with the news

11:22

that a boy had been hanged out

11:24

in ClearView and they thought

11:26

it was laundry. According to Jed and

11:28

Magazine, miss Norma ran to her

11:30

car and raised to return to their

11:32

subdivision to locate her son as

11:34

they got close to their home. The streets

11:36

were packed with neighbors and

11:38

first responders, including

11:40

EMTs, firefighters, and

11:42

many police officers IT

11:44

HAD ONLY BEEN AT THIS POINT ABOUT thirty

11:47

MINUTES SINCE CHRISTIAN HAD LAST

11:49

SEEN HIS BROTHER ANDREY

11:51

WHEN THEY LEFT TO GO INTO TOWN.

11:53

Christian didn't recall seeing anyone out

11:55

on the streets, but within just a half

11:57

hour, the word spread, and the

11:59

entire

11:59

neighborhood was gathering on

12:02

the street. doesn't take long when you're in a

12:04

neighborhood and word-of-mouth gets out,

12:06

people flock. They wanna see what's going

12:08

on. They hear sirens.

12:09

They see police cars

12:11

with their flashers

12:12

on. People wanna know what's going on over

12:14

there. People are curious by nature.

12:16

Yeah. Absolutely. The Rowland

12:18

family stood by, waiting for news

12:20

and answers that weren't

12:22

coming, hours passed, and

12:24

the day turned tonight. Miss

12:27

Norma demanded several

12:29

times to be allowed to go back in the

12:31

woods to see if

12:33

this was her son. BUT POLICE

12:35

REFUSED THEY DENIED HER ACCESS AND

12:37

I RECALLED THAT NOTHING HAD BEEN

12:39

BLOCKED ON. AND PEOPLE WONDERED

12:42

ALL OVER THE SCENE. It was

12:44

hours before police secured the

12:46

area designated as the crime

12:48

scene. As she stood by waiting

12:50

for news with the family, Anne

12:52

overheard two firefighters who were coming

12:54

from the wooded area, she

12:56

heard them say, this was not

12:58

a suicide while the

13:00

other shook his head in

13:02

agreement, something that will stick with

13:04

her as more information comes out.

13:06

Yeah. Because, I mean, We're not

13:08

giving anything away by

13:10

saying this case

13:12

is going to come down to

13:14

whether this was a suicide or murder.

13:16

So this statement

13:18

that Anna has said she overheard is

13:20

a big one. According to Jen

13:23

Magazine hours past, in the atmosphere,

13:26

BECAME HOSTLE. ANDREY'S

13:28

MOTHER FELT THAT LAW

13:30

ENFORCEMENT WAS STALLING HER AND SHE

13:32

DECIDED THAT SHE WASN'T GOING TO WAIT

13:34

ANY LONGER. Her neighbor Nathan

13:36

Williams told her he would

13:38

go back into the woods to

13:40

identify the body he was

13:42

a firefighter. It took just a few

13:44

minutes for Nathan to

13:46

return with the news that

13:48

the body was, that

13:50

of Andrey Rolled. rough

13:51

information for Mormon

13:53

here? I mean, she kinda thought

13:55

that it might be her son back there for

13:58

Could be. Yeah. Yeah. But, actually, didn't get

14:00

that confirmation. Yeah. The the

14:02

thing that's running through my mind

14:04

is a mother that

14:06

is distraught. I'm sure

14:09

wanting to get back there. to

14:11

see if this is her son or

14:14

not, hoping that it's not. But

14:16

wanting to know -- Right. --

14:17

one way or

14:19

the other, but then to finally

14:21

hear the news, the

14:23

confirmation had to be devastating.

14:26

Miss Norma asked Nathan if

14:28

her baby was hanging. And Nathan

14:30

Williams told her that he was in

14:32

a kneeling position with his

14:34

feet on the ground and his knees in front of

14:36

him just four inches from the

14:38

ground. He said it looked

14:40

like Andre was praying. if

14:42

it wasn't for the bell wrapped

14:44

around his neck. Miss Norma

14:46

drove to the coroner's office to

14:48

identify her son but she was denied

14:50

entry when she arrived. She was

14:52

told she arrived

14:54

before the first responders had arrived

14:56

with the body. when she was

14:58

allowed to view her son's body,

15:00

she saw blood on his shirt, but

15:02

she could see no injury to account

15:04

for the blood. SHE ASKED THE MEDICAL

15:06

EXAMINER WHERE THE BLOOD HAD COME FROM

15:08

BUT HE SAID THAT HE WASN'T

15:10

SURE. HIS NOSE AND MOUNTH WERE

15:12

CLEAN and didn't appear to

15:14

contain any blood, but his tongue

15:16

was hanging out of his mouth. So

15:18

it's a sad description. It is

15:20

sad. No

15:21

way around that. was

15:23

also said that his fingernails

15:25

were clean. There was no sign

15:27

of any dirt underneath

15:30

It was as if he had just taken a

15:32

bath. And thisstruck Norma

15:34

is unusual. Her boy

15:37

was kind of Ruff and

15:39

tumble boy as boys are. Hey. He's

15:41

gonna be a little dirty throughout the day. Hey.

15:43

Just spent the day at school. It was

15:45

probably recess. kids

15:47

get dirty, and it was said

15:49

it had been a day since his

15:51

bath the evening before. So

15:53

I can see. with all

15:55

of that, why she would think,

15:57

that's a little strange.

15:59

It's odd. He's normally

16:01

a

16:01

little more dirty. than

16:03

that. So why does it

16:04

look so clean at this point? Now it

16:06

said he was in a slab,

16:09

but she expected to see at

16:11

least some signs of dirt

16:13

on him. She's his mother, she

16:15

knows him. Absolutely. So

16:17

I think what struck her was

16:19

a

16:20

question. of whether Andre

16:23

had been cleaned. And

16:25

whether or not this is

16:27

what was going on during

16:29

this period of time where she was

16:31

not allowed to go see her son. Were

16:33

they was someone cleaning him

16:36

up, washing away evidence, that

16:38

they didn't want her to see. If

16:40

they knew she was the mother, then

16:42

you can see why she would be upset.

16:44

Yeah. I don't know how they would have

16:46

known she was. because she

16:48

didn't even know. At that

16:50

point, whether the person back

16:52

there was her son. So

16:54

I get it though that

16:56

she has questions she's starting to

16:58

be concerned about what

17:00

happened during that time. On March

17:02

twenty seventh nineteen eighty nine, according

17:04

to the Columbia Tribune,

17:06

the NAACP SUSP SUSPECTED FAL

17:09

PLAY IN THE HANGING DEATH

17:11

OF fourteen YEAR OLD ANDREY

17:14

ROLAND the death that the Boone County

17:16

Sheriff had called a suicide.

17:18

Sheriff Ted Baum said Andre Rowland

17:20

was found dead at about

17:22

five thirty PM Friday. He was

17:24

hanging by a belt from the limb of

17:27

a tree behind the subdivision. The

17:29

Tribune reported that both

17:32

Boam and Boerne found AN

17:34

INVESTIGATOR FOR THE MATT COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMERER'S OFFICE

17:37

SAID THE DEATH WAS A

17:39

SUICIDE. FAUCAN SAID THERE WAS NO

17:41

EVIDENCE OF FAUCLE. On

17:43

March twenty ninth, it was reported by

17:45

the tribune that an autopsy was

17:48

performed and concluded there

17:50

were no signs of foul play.

17:52

Ted Baum said the death was a suicide,

17:54

but we will still continue

17:56

to investigate. We will be investigating

17:58

the fourteen year olds hanging

18:00

death until

18:02

it is determined that there is nowhere

18:04

else to go. He added there

18:06

were no bruises on the bottom. Other

18:08

than those that the belt caused

18:10

around Andre's neck. So

18:12

it looks like

18:12

the shirt was really sticking to the

18:15

fact that

18:15

it's too side. Well, he

18:17

came out and he said it initially

18:20

that it was. But

18:22

then he was backed

18:24

up by the medical examiner's

18:26

office by the autopsy.

18:28

So now maybe he's even

18:30

more defended. Yeah. After that.

18:32

It seems like the message is pretty consistent

18:34

with investigators in the corner.

18:37

at

18:37

least people talking to the media. Yeah. Now

18:39

the family thought Andre had been

18:41

strangled somewhere else, and then

18:43

taken to the wooded area near

18:46

their home. A TEENAGER WHO

18:48

FOUND THE BODY AT five thirty P.

18:50

M. ON FRIDAY SAID

18:52

ROLEN WAS FOUND HANGING WITH HIS

18:54

TOE TOUCHING THE GROUND. and his

18:56

knee suspended about four inches

18:59

in the air. One neighbor

19:01

said, they didn't think it looked

19:03

like foul blood. According

19:05

to the Columbia Daily Tribune,

19:07

black community leaders were upset

19:10

that the sheriff's department called the death

19:12

of suicide without and

19:15

in-depth investigation. They

19:17

were also concerned about the way

19:19

Norma Rowland was treated. She

19:21

talked about how deputies refused

19:23

to allow her down to the site of

19:25

Andre's death on that Friday and even

19:27

tried to turn her away when

19:29

she arrived to identify the body. and

19:32

we said it. It really wasn't her

19:34

at the scene who identified

19:37

Andre. It was

19:39

her neighbor The firefighter -- Yeah. --

19:41

that could go down there for her because

19:43

they wouldn't let her go. Now,

19:45

is that on? It's one of the questions

19:47

that popped into my mind. Is

19:50

it strange that they would not

19:52

let somebody near

19:54

this scene? if

19:55

they're trying to preserve the scene, I

19:57

could see them holding back

19:59

individuals

19:59

wanting to come up there, but maybe they

20:02

thought it wasn't the right time. I'm

20:04

I'm just trying to look at this case logically. I

20:06

get it that people are upset,

20:09

but was that standard protocol or

20:12

not? Should any non law

20:14

enforcement person have

20:16

been allowed to go to the

20:18

scene at that point in time.

20:20

Typically, no. that's my question. I don't

20:22

know the answer. My assumption

20:24

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ticat. On

24:01

March thirtieth nineteen eighty nine,

24:03

the Columbia Tribune reported that

24:05

an investigation into the death of

24:08

Andre Rowland uncovered

24:10

no evidence that the fourteen year old

24:12

was involved in a racial incident

24:15

According to Boone County Sheriff Ted

24:17

Baum, Baum said he and two

24:19

other deputies had interviewed roughly

24:21

twenty people. and said they didn't

24:23

find any evidence to support

24:25

statements that Andre was threatened

24:27

by white teenagers because he

24:29

may have been dating a white girl.

24:31

The sheriff said, I have heard the rumors,

24:33

but no one can come to me

24:35

and say, this person

24:37

or that person threatened him.

24:39

The sheriff went on to say that he had

24:41

been unable to substantiate rumors

24:44

that Roland had even been dating.

24:46

A white girl. The sheriff also

24:48

stated that the investigation didn't

24:50

turn up any other foul

24:52

play. However, Brian

24:54

Washington who was engaged to Roland's

24:57

sister, Raquel, at that time,

24:59

told reporters that Andre

25:01

had been threatened. by white students at Jefferson junior

25:04

high school because he was dating

25:06

a white girl. Brian couldn't

25:08

remember the girl's name though. Well,

25:10

I think the sheriff is saying, we

25:12

don't have adequate information.

25:15

We don't have anybody outside of the family

25:17

coming to us. saying they

25:19

heard these threats. We don't

25:21

have confirmation. Confirmation.

25:23

Now, what I would say

25:25

is that If you

25:27

bunch kids threatening him, are they

25:30

likely to come forward and say, yeah, we did

25:32

that? Of course not. No. no

25:34

Andres funeral was held at the missionary

25:36

area Baptist Church, and

25:38

it was reported that hundreds of

25:40

mourners were seen in tears

25:42

for the loss of this young man,

25:44

his school had offered counseling to

25:46

the students. During the

25:49

funeral, the Reverend Harold Butler said

25:51

the truth of what happened will

25:53

surface. The final result, we

25:55

all leave in the hands of God. It had

25:57

to

25:57

be a rough surface. I mean, this is a fourteen

25:59

year

25:59

old boy that people

26:01

the community love, people in

26:03

the school loved, had

26:06

a very sad event. Well, funerals

26:08

are sad. Yes. but the

26:11

funeral of a fourteen year

26:13

old in my experience is

26:15

even more sad. I can't say I've

26:17

been to a lot of them -- Yeah. -- but I have been

26:19

to the funeral of some young

26:22

people. It's very sad

26:24

because they're taken so young.

26:26

no No. When

26:27

somebody's ninety five years old and

26:29

they die. That's

26:30

a sad occasion.

26:32

But they live ninety five years. They did.

26:34

They finished the game. Right? They got through

26:36

life. It did well. Yeah.

26:39

But when you're

26:39

fourteen, you didn't get the chance. You never

26:41

even started? No. So we talked

26:43

about the theory that there was AAA

26:46

racial component to

26:48

this case and that

26:50

Andre was possibly murdered.

26:52

There was another theory that came to

26:54

light around sexual

26:57

hypoxia, which is now called auto

27:00

eroticism. is basically where an

27:02

individual cuts off the oxygen

27:04

supplied to their brain while

27:06

masturbating. Because they believe it

27:08

heightens the strength of the

27:10

stimulation received. This practice is

27:13

often unintentionally fatal.

27:15

And there have been some high profile people

27:17

who have died where

27:20

it's been determined that this was the cause.

27:22

I can think of a a couple

27:24

of actors that this has happened

27:27

to. Yeah. Now we're talking about a fourteen year old boy

27:29

here. Roy Hazelwood, a

27:31

retired member of the FBI's

27:33

original behavior sciences unit,

27:35

conducted some research. He reported on

27:37

the results he found along

27:40

with other studies he reviewed

27:42

about the phenomenon. Hazelwood

27:44

reported that victims of

27:46

this fatality. typically are

27:48

of average or higher intelligence.

27:50

They possess strong imaginations,

27:52

are easily bored, and

27:55

usually have no known

27:57

history of sexual or mental

27:59

disorders. The

27:59

overwhelming majority of

28:01

them are white and

28:03

a significant number in their teens

28:05

and twenties. He also

28:07

mentioned that suspected auto

28:09

erotic scenes always show

28:12

evidence. that the victims provided themselves

28:14

with an escape or release mechanism.

28:16

The sheriff told the

28:19

Tribune that he hadn't talked with the

28:21

county medical examiner about

28:23

the possibility of deaf being

28:25

due to experimenting with

28:28

sexual hypoxia. He said Andre's

28:30

body was found in a partially private

28:32

area hanging by his own bell,

28:34

which he could have wrapped around

28:36

his own neck Andre was found with

28:38

his toes touching the ground, a

28:41

possible escape mechanism

28:43

as he might have been able to stand

28:45

up to relieve the pressure and

28:47

prevent death. but this would not

28:49

explain why he had blood on his shirt

28:51

and why Andre appeared to have

28:53

been cleaned up. I

28:54

mean, this is a theory and

28:55

you can try to find reasoning

28:58

behind it. You can try to make

29:00

things fit. Sure. The problem I

29:02

have with this is I go back to, you know, this

29:04

is a fourteen year old kid, I'm not

29:06

saying it's impossible. Here

29:08

here's here's where my mind is

29:10

going though. Why go out in

29:13

to

29:13

the woods. I get it

29:14

partially secluded. That doesn't

29:17

mean somebody's not gonna walk up on

29:19

you. Right? Especially knowing that your

29:21

brother was gonna be up

29:23

there shortly. Absolutely. So,

29:26

you know, to me, this doesn't make a lot

29:28

of sense. Again, I'm not saying it's

29:30

not possible.

29:31

I

29:32

don't think it's probable. I'll

29:34

I'll put it that way. It seems to

29:36

me as though if it were going to happen

29:39

would there not be a place in the house,

29:41

a locked bedroom, a

29:44

time when maybe everybody

29:46

else is out of the home, I

29:48

I don't know. Maybe when it's nighttime,

29:51

everybody's asleep. Yeah.

29:53

According to articles in

29:55

the same Lewis post

29:57

dispatch, the county medical examiner

29:59

ruled Roland's death to suicide,

30:01

saying nope foul play was involved.

30:04

However, Andre's death

30:06

certificate reports his death as

30:08

undetermined, meaning

30:10

suicide may not have been a

30:12

factor. The post dispatch further reported that many

30:14

in the community felt a thorough

30:17

investigation wasn't done, and

30:19

Andre didn't show

30:21

any signs. taking his

30:23

life. Well, I mean, so

30:24

you can see where the community is

30:27

conflicted. Yeah.

30:28

I I do see

30:30

you know, this is a kid that I think

30:32

a lot of people will probably

30:34

look at and say, this is

30:36

not the type of kid that showed

30:38

any signs. someone that

30:40

would have taken,

30:41

you know, his

30:42

own life. Now, you have to be careful

30:44

with that because not everybody

30:46

displays the signs. or any

30:49

signs that they may be headed

30:51

down that path. True. But

30:53

then, you know, when you find

30:55

out that the death certificate

30:58

doesn't list suicide. Okay? Well, now we

31:00

have questions. You said the word

31:03

conflicted. Somebody explained why

31:05

that is And I

31:07

think all of this kind of leads to the

31:10

speculation, the questioning

31:13

by people especially

31:16

those who were close to

31:18

Andre, what's

31:18

really going on? Yeah. What's

31:20

happening here? Then double ACP

31:23

launched a petition drive on

31:25

April fourth, on May second

31:27

nineteen eighty nine. According to the

31:29

Columbia Tribune, The

31:31

local NAACP

31:33

Chapter delivered a petition to

31:35

a Boone County Circuit judge

31:38

requesting a grand jury inquiry.

31:40

into the March twenty fourth death of Andre

31:42

Roman. Mary Ratliff,

31:44

local president of the National

31:47

Association for the advancement of

31:49

colored people said the petition

31:51

had one thousand one hundred and

31:53

twenty six signatures, but the

31:55

judge didn't review it that day.

31:57

So this petition was made to the judge,

31:59

but then really couldn't find much

32:01

about what happened with it. It

32:04

does not seem as

32:06

though a grand jury was

32:08

ever convened. So it must have been

32:10

denied. But I can't say that was

32:12

certainty because we couldn't find it in

32:14

the research. I think if there was one, we would have

32:16

found information on it. Absolutely. So

32:18

I think it's a pretty good assumption to May. Yeah. I

32:20

agree with you. In May of nineteen

32:22

eighty nine, FBI opened

32:24

an investigation into Andre's

32:26

death. Now they were only

32:28

investigating whether Roland's

32:30

death was racially motivated.

32:32

The FBI said would send the results of

32:34

their investigation to the federal

32:37

prosecutors division of the US

32:39

Department of Justice. So

32:42

basically, they were looking

32:44

to determine whether

32:46

Roland's civil rights were violated

32:49

and whether any federal

32:51

laws. had

32:51

been broken. But the

32:52

family continued to feel as

32:54

though a grand jury investigation should

32:56

have been opened, especially

32:59

into the investigation by the Boone

33:01

County Sheriff's Department, which

33:03

determined Roland's death was self

33:06

inflicted. According to the Tribune Boon

33:08

County prosecutor Joe Mosley said

33:11

he believed a grand jury

33:13

investigation into Andre's death to

33:15

be inappropriate. He

33:17

said that a grand jury could be

33:19

assembled to study evidence only

33:21

in a criminal case. So a lot

33:23

of legal mumbled jumbled going around. But

33:25

I think it's important. Right?

33:28

Because right now, where

33:30

is the criminal case? The

33:32

ruling was suicide, so there's no criminal case, not

33:35

homicide. Right. I get it.

33:36

The family wants somebody to look

33:39

into the investigation But

33:42

there's been no determination that

33:44

any crime occurred there, right,

33:46

cover up, anything like that. So

33:48

what are you gonna put before a

33:50

grand jury. If this Joe

33:52

Mosley is correct, which I believe

33:54

he is, there is no criminal

33:57

case. For a grand jury to

33:59

the

33:59

consider in the

34:00

family saying, well, we think that's

34:03

because there's

34:04

a cover up. There's a cover up. Yeah. Yeah. So

34:06

we're kinda at this head butting

34:08

stage. of, you

34:10

know, not only what both sides believe,

34:12

but what can be done under

34:14

the law. The FBI completed

34:18

its investigation. and delivered its report to the Washington

34:20

DC based federal Department

34:22

of Justice the

34:24

following week. week THEIR INVESTIGATION

34:26

ONLY LOOKED AT TWO VERY

34:28

NEAROW ISSUES. AGAIN, I

34:30

SAID IT, BUT IT'S VIOLATIONS of

34:33

Andre civil rights and whether any federal laws

34:35

were broken. No one investigated

34:37

whether evidence was ignored

34:39

or covered up and

34:41

no agency investigated the conduct

34:44

of members of the Boone County

34:46

Sheriff's Department or the medical

34:50

examiner's office. But here again, that's not what the FBI was

34:52

there to do. Right? They

34:54

were there to do or

34:56

look into we're looking to too

34:58

very specific aspect. Very limited. Very

35:01

limited in their scope.

35:03

Miss Norma became convinced delay

35:06

at the site outside of the

35:08

woods on North Onham Drive occurred

35:10

so that the scene could be staged.

35:13

evidence covered up, and Andre's body

35:16

tampered with. The medical

35:18

examiner said Andre's body arrived at the

35:20

coroner's office in the state in

35:22

which Norma saw him with blood on

35:24

his shirt, but no obvious

35:26

wounds. And his body was free of

35:28

any dirt or blood as if he

35:30

had been recently cleaned.

35:32

So, I mean, I think we have to look at

35:34

this blah. because it it

35:35

is a big point

35:36

of contention in this case. It's it's one of the things that,

35:39

you know, a lot of people point to,

35:41

is it possible that

35:44

this blood that

35:46

was found on Andre's shirt came not from

35:48

him but from someone else. Possible.

35:50

I think it's entirely possible.

35:54

But if that is true, then it means that

35:56

someone else was present. Assuming

35:58

that the blood wasn't already

36:02

there from earlier in the

36:04

day, but I would think his

36:06

brother would have noticed it and

36:08

said something about it. And so

36:10

then the

36:12

other arises out of that if another

36:14

person was present. How did that

36:16

person get bloody? And how did the

36:18

blood transfer from

36:20

that person onto Andrei

36:22

shirt. And why didn't this second

36:24

person ever come forward? I think a

36:26

lot of people would also make the

36:28

argument that the mere

36:30

presence of a second

36:32

person makes Andres' death

36:34

unlikely to be a suicide.

36:37

So the family wants answers about the

36:39

blood, but who's

36:40

gonna give them the answers?

36:42

Why I look at it this way. You

36:44

know, if you're in the camp that believes

36:46

that there's some type of

36:48

cover up, then you would believe

36:50

most likely that authorities

36:53

have the answers, they just won't

36:55

give it give them out. because they don't want

36:57

the truth to come out. If you're in

36:59

the camp that believes there was no

37:01

cover up, nothing like

37:04

that, then it's most likely that they just don't have the answers.

37:06

They don't know where that blood came from,

37:08

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in looking at that,

40:39

There are questions as well. I I

40:41

think the first question and probably

40:43

the biggest is, you know, what would have

40:45

pushed him to do that? Like we said, there

40:47

was really no one that could point to anything

40:50

in his life that

40:52

seemed as though it was

40:54

weighing him down that was causing him

40:56

to be depressed or anything like

40:58

that. The only thing that's really ever come

41:00

out

41:00

is this is this notion

41:02

that white students had threatened André because

41:04

he was dating a white girl, but

41:06

that has never been corroborated by

41:10

police. has been corroborated by some people, but

41:12

not by the police. They've never been able

41:14

to corroborate that and

41:16

come out and say that Yes,

41:19

this happened. Now, if you're the

41:22

family, that falls in

41:24

line with, they're not

41:26

going to corroborate

41:28

it because they haven't done a good investigation. Right? There there's a

41:30

cover up. There's all there's all these

41:32

things. And I would make the same

41:34

argument about

41:38

Andrey taking his life as I did about

41:40

the auto

41:42

eroticism, the

41:43

location, the timing

41:46

of it, you even mentioned it. Right? Would he have done

41:48

it knowing that his

41:50

brother was most likely

41:52

right behind him? Yeah.

41:55

Does we go to the bathroom

41:57

and then be right down there. It's just Would

41:58

he not have stumbled

42:00

upon him and

42:02

and saw what Andre was doing and

42:06

stopped him? You know, these brothers were described as being

42:08

very, very close. So one of

42:10

the questions I have is, you

42:12

know, would

42:14

Andre have wanted it to be his brother

42:16

who found him. I can't imagine somebody

42:18

wanted

42:18

to do that to their own

42:20

sibling. Have

42:21

that haunt them?

42:23

Yeah.

42:23

Yeah.

42:24

Again, we're just kind

42:26

of throwing out what ifs

42:29

and playing devil's advocate

42:31

and looking at all different sides of this case.

42:33

And we said Andre always had

42:35

a upbeat and a

42:37

very sunny demeanor. I

42:39

wouldn't notice anything different. But and

42:42

specifically that day, people said that he

42:44

was not showing

42:45

any sign. So

42:46

though if we

42:47

look at Andre not

42:49

taking his own life, maybe

42:51

looking at the at

42:53

him being killed, Then we have

42:55

to ask the question what would cause someone in

42:58

the community to

42:59

murder him. And

43:00

this is where the rumors of

43:02

Andre dating a white girl really come in. There

43:05

are many people. I mean,

43:07

you see it online. that

43:10

feel that it makes more

43:12

sense, that he was

43:14

killed

43:14

in a

43:15

racially motivated

43:18

incident than it does that he he took his own life. And

43:20

I think one of the big issues that

43:22

the family has had is

43:26

trying to figure

43:26

out why the sheriff's department

43:29

classified Andre's death as a

43:31

suicide before really conducting

43:33

a thorough investigation.

43:35

Miss Norma told the Columbia Tribune on

43:37

May third nineteen eighty nine that

43:40

Christian was never once interviewed

43:42

by anyone connected with

43:44

the investigation even though

43:46

he was the last person believed to

43:48

have seen Andre alive. She

43:50

also

43:50

said that neither of the neighbors

43:52

she asked had been interviewed

43:54

and

43:54

I think these are just some of the reasons.

43:56

Why miss

43:57

Norma told the reporter that she was deeply

43:59

dissatisfied with the investigation. conducted

44:02

by boat, the sheriff, and the FBI. But we know the

44:04

FBI was only going to investigate this

44:07

for two specific reasons.

44:10

But one of those was to look into

44:12

a a racially motivated

44:15

incident. So did they do

44:17

that

44:17

and they didn't find

44:20

anything? which would then back up the police's

44:22

statement that they couldn't corroborate

44:26

that rumor.

44:26

room I

44:27

don't know because we

44:28

don't have all of the evidence

44:31

that the FBI compiled.

44:34

Now as to whether of

44:36

individuals should have been

44:38

questioned or talked to. Right?

44:40

Christian, the neighbors. How

44:42

unsure about that? this thing ruled

44:44

a suicide early on,

44:46

would there be a reason then

44:48

to go interview people

44:50

because

44:51

there's no crime? I

44:53

don't know. But I also think,

44:55

does

44:55

it hurt? No, it

44:56

doesn't hurt. And I think a lot

44:58

of people would make the case that why

45:01

rule it a suicide before

45:03

the medical examiner

45:06

does his or her thing.

45:07

If that's the case, then you should

45:09

be doing an investigation. before

45:11

that happens. Right? You should be

45:14

canvassing the neighborhood and talking to

45:16

people. So I think that argument can

45:18

be easily made. The Columbia

45:19

Daily Tribune reported that

45:22

sheriff Baum told their reporter

45:24

back in nineteen eighty nine that

45:26

he was waiting for the results of tests on

45:29

the belt used in the hanging, the clothes

45:31

Andre was wearing, and the blood

45:33

found on the clothes. Yet

45:36

years later, when Christian and his wife, Natasha, tried

45:39

to obtain copies of those test

45:41

results, or at least any reports

45:43

that mention them, They

45:46

reported

45:46

that members of the sheriff's department

45:48

denied that any existed.

45:50

They have also said

45:53

that the sheriff's department claims

45:55

that Christian has copies of everything in the file. And I

45:57

think on this subject, you

45:58

gotta figure out

45:59

who's telling

46:02

the truth. did the department not run any

46:04

tests on those items? Did they run

46:05

them and then destroy the results?

46:08

Or did they have

46:10

the results? but

46:12

they just don't want to show them to the family. I

46:14

don't know the

46:15

answers. We've done some of

46:17

these cases where they're

46:19

older cases and just

46:21

things that were in the fire or should have been in the fire,

46:23

just no longer there. Yeah. But we

46:25

don't

46:25

even know

46:26

if they're no longer there.

46:29

or if they just don't wanna give them to the family.

46:32

According to

46:32

the Columbia Tribune on September fourth

46:34

nineteen eighty nine, normal Roland

46:37

said it's hard to be strong. When you know your kids

46:39

and mom are hurting, seeing the pain

46:42

of his three brothers, three sisters and

46:44

his grandmother makes it hard

46:46

to cope. When

46:47

something happens to one child and the family,

46:49

it happens to all of them. The children

46:51

have all dealt with their grief in

46:54

different ways. Norma also

46:56

said she was most worried

46:58

about Christian, the last person to see

47:00

Andre alive, as he has

47:02

suffered from a lot of guilt. He has received

47:04

counseling

47:04

through the church community to

47:06

help him cope with his feelings

47:08

over the events. Norma didn't

47:10

go to counseling herself. nor did

47:13

she accept the invitations to join survivors groups. She

47:15

said that she was busy

47:17

investigating Andre's death. and

47:20

that the peace I see can only

47:22

come from the Lord. Norma

47:24

also

47:24

told the tribune certain things

47:26

make some days harder to cope with

47:28

than others. For example, Andre took

47:31

great pride in caring for the

47:33

family's yard. It was his thing to

47:35

keep the yard and gardens

47:38

looking nice. that first spring without Andre in nineteen

47:40

ninety. When the flowers

47:41

he planted the previous year came

47:43

up, it was

47:46

so beautiful and made her think of him even more than

47:48

usual. Little unexpected things

47:49

like that are the most difficult

47:51

for her to

47:54

deal with. Miss

47:54

Norma also saw a change in her neighborhood after

47:56

Andre's death. Before she used

47:58

to see a lot

47:59

of children,

48:00

playing outside in the streets alone

48:03

in pairs or in groups at all

48:05

hours of the day and night. After

48:07

she was

48:07

more apt to see kids

48:09

playing in their own yards with a parent standing

48:12

by to keep watch or

48:14

larger groups of older kids, but

48:16

she doesn't see as

48:18

many children. playing

48:18

out there as there used to be. So there's

48:21

a lot of things

48:22

here that I kinda wanna

48:24

unwrap. I get it. This

48:26

family was devastated. Norma

48:29

was devastated. Christian, the

48:31

rest of the the

48:34

sibling. Yes. It's

48:34

tough to deal with. It's very tough to deal with. The

48:36

one thing that I kinda took

48:38

note of was that ENormous

48:41

Ed, she was so busy

48:44

investigating Andre's death

48:46

that she didn't go to counseling.

48:49

She didn't you know, join any survivors groups.

48:51

It was almost as if she

48:53

may not have processed

48:55

some things or you know, gotten

48:57

to help she needed at at the

49:00

very least because

49:00

she was so

49:02

soon consumed. with

49:04

trying to figure out what happened to

49:06

Andre. The other thing, you

49:08

know, was a change in the neighborhood. This

49:10

is something we see. in

49:13

a lot of episodes where something,

49:15

you know, really horrible happens, things

49:18

change.

49:18

these change They do.

49:20

parents

49:21

don't let their kids, you know, go

49:23

as far,

49:23

play alone, do certain things

49:25

like that, especially you

49:30

know, if a lot of them felt as the

49:32

family did that Andre

49:34

didn't take

49:35

his life, something more sinister

49:37

was at play. I

49:39

i dunno don't the

49:40

neighborhood changed because of this incident

49:42

specifically or because all

49:45

neighborhoods changed over time. Yeah.

49:47

I

49:47

mean, it it could have been a combination of both,

49:49

but you're right. I mean,

49:52

neighborhoods all across the

49:54

country. And probably all across the world,

49:56

changed to some degree and and

49:58

continue

49:58

to change. Right?

50:00

Children have

50:01

less and less freedom

50:02

have less and less freedom and

50:04

and it's been progressive. I gave my children

50:06

less freedom than what I had.

50:09

That's for sure. Oh, yes. Half

50:12

the time My mom didn't know

50:14

where I was. Same here.

50:15

Left early in the morning, didn't come home to dinner

50:18

time. And, you know, nineties,

50:20

the two thousands, two thousand

50:22

tens, two thousand twenty, it just has continued to

50:24

progress. Miss Norma passed away in

50:26

December

50:26

two thousand fourteen, without learning

50:28

what happened to her son, Andrey.

50:32

Christian and his wife, Natasha, continue looking for

50:35

answers to Andre's death, producing and posting

50:37

their documentary

50:37

with details and original

50:39

documents related to

50:42

case are just a few things they've done to spread the

50:44

word and keep André's case

50:46

alive after thirty three years. So

50:50

as we wrap up this case, Gives, you know, I go back to

50:52

the the biggest overarching question,

50:56

which is what

50:57

really happened? to Andrey

51:00

Rolland on March twenty

51:02

fourth nineteen eighty nine. Did

51:04

he take his own life? Did

51:07

the police jump too quickly to conclude that it

51:09

was a suicide,

51:12

or

51:12

was it some tragic,

51:15

auto erotic, fatality or

51:17

was it murder of a black

51:20

teen who was dating a white

51:22

teen? And then

51:22

I think depending on what the

51:25

answer to that question is, Then

51:27

you

51:27

have to ask, okay, was there some

51:30

type of police corruption, a

51:32

cover up? I I

51:34

don't know. I

51:35

don't know the answers to any of

51:37

these things.

51:38

All I can do is ask the questions. I know

51:40

what the family believes. Sure. And

51:42

they're not alone Oh, they're not. We said that. There

51:44

are a lot of other people who

51:47

have

51:47

serious doubts about

51:49

how this case was

51:51

handled are many people who

51:54

probably think that the

51:54

ruling that was made was most

51:57

likely the correct one. I think you

51:59

have people on

51:59

both sides. for

52:01

sure. The toughest

52:02

thing for me in this

52:05

specific case is I

52:06

just don't know. I

52:08

can't tell you one

52:10

way or another. There are very few,

52:12

what I would call, cold

52:14

hard

52:14

facts. In this

52:16

case,

52:16

there are definitely more questions

52:20

than answers.

52:21

And it makes it

52:23

really hard to kinda make

52:25

a determination and

52:28

or even say which way you lean in

52:30

in a case like this. Because what are

52:32

you basing it on? Limited amount

52:34

of information. Very, very limited.

52:37

If you have any information regarding the death

52:39

of Andre Rowland, please

52:42

contact Missouri crimestoppers to

52:44

report information anonymously at

52:46

573875

52:48

tips or the Boone County

52:50

Sheriff's Department at 5738751111

52:55

So that's it for our episode on

52:57

the mysterious death of

53:00

Andre Rowland. Maybe

53:01

one day. Someone

53:02

will come forward. I don't know

53:04

if there is someone who knows exactly

53:07

what happened. If there was a second

53:09

person there that day, then

53:11

there is somebody. Right. If they're still

53:13

alive that knows what

53:15

transpired transpired. And

53:16

if so, then we could

53:19

get resolution. But we got some voice mails you wanna check

53:21

those out? I do. Hey,

53:22

Mike. Hey, Gavi. This

53:25

is Britney from Kansas. I've been

53:27

a patient I remember for, like, a little over a year now. This is my first

53:29

time leaving voice mail. Oh

53:31

my gosh. But I just wanted to

53:33

call and tell you

53:36

guys that I love your podcast and then keep

53:38

us the good work. And I'm

53:40

not Team Mike or Team Givby.

53:42

It's Team T Cat. because

53:45

you guys like a peanut butter and jelly

53:48

sandwich. You can't have one without the

53:50

other one.

53:52

Anyway, I just wanna say I

53:54

love you guys and keep your own

53:56

time

53:56

ticking. Bye. Hey, Lisa. We're

53:59

not a fluff or nutter. Exactly. You put your peanut

54:01

butter in my chocolate. Don't be putting

54:03

your

54:03

chocolate in my peanut butter. But

54:06

thank you very much for the voice mail.

54:08

Thanks for porting us on

54:10

Patreon of it. That really means a

54:11

lot. Hey, my dudes. This is Brad

54:14

from Seattle. I just got

54:16

finished with the unsolved episode

54:18

of the Gulch family that died in the gulfs

54:20

there. Just wanted to say that I found

54:22

out to be super bizarre. I used to live

54:24

in California. I was born and raised

54:26

there. What's college in Northern

54:28

California. And a couple of

54:30

things I noticed that if they're using

54:32

all trails, they could have easily

54:34

backtrack their way out.

54:36

They use GPS. You don't need cell signal, and you can easily

54:38

use bread crumbs and find your way out. The

54:40

other thing is some

54:42

critics talk about having a GPS

54:44

locator like a spot in a

54:46

trail like this that's probably not

54:48

common wouldn't really be appropriate to

54:50

pretty moderate to novice

54:52

trail lot a fire road

54:54

and people just don't carry those in situations like this. But

54:56

I also want to recommend

54:59

a case that was on your guys list,

55:02

Dante Lucas, a defendant.

55:04

It's probably the most famous nobody

55:06

homicide in public, Colorado,

55:08

Southern Colorado. in history.

55:10

I was working down there at the time

55:12

and it's got everything you

55:14

guys would love for a very

55:17

entertaining and comprehensive analysis of the case. It's

55:19

got cell phone records, trace evidence, all

55:21

that stuff. It's a

55:24

tragic story. highly recommended.

55:26

Other than that, love the show. Keep

55:28

it up, guys. Keep your head on the swivel.

55:30

I'm team, TCAT. Later. Alright.

55:32

Awesome voice mail. So we'll definitely look into that case. For sure.

55:35

What I will say, gives, I have

55:37

received a lot of emails and

55:39

stuff on that devil's gulch

55:42

case because it is so mysterious. Oh, yes.

55:45

I mean, I get it

55:46

most likely they died from

55:50

Heat

55:50

exhaustion. Heat exhaustion. Heat stroke. But like

55:52

a lot of people are saying, it seems like

55:54

it would have been so easy to to

55:57

find their way out. Right. for

55:59

one person to take off. Yeah. I mean, it's just

56:02

a mystery. And and I think

56:04

it it baffles a lot

56:06

of people. Hi,

56:08

Mike

56:08

and Kibby. This

56:10

is Candice Wolf in New

56:13

Mexico. And

56:13

I missed right now,

56:15

I'm listening to Tara

56:18

Kalakos. And I just want

56:20

to let you know that it's not

56:23

Berlin.

56:23

It's Berlin. It's a

56:26

Spanish word. and it means nativity scene

56:28

or crib.

56:28

So just thought I'd let you

56:31

know it's pronounced the

56:34

Lynn Thanks

56:36

for your show. I love you guys so much.

56:38

You guys are great. I love all the banter

56:40

and keep your own

56:42

time kicking. Bye bye. So

56:44

I knew. Oh, no. I

56:46

I knew it too. So what's

56:48

so funny about

56:49

it is that she stopped

56:51

the podcast to

56:53

call. Okay. She left another voicemail later

56:56

on correcting me on a couple of other

56:58

things. But that

57:00

boom when thing blin

57:02

thing through me because I I watched a bunch

57:04

of stuff on YouTube trying to get

57:06

that right. Yeah. And it was

57:08

kind of split. Yes. And

57:11

so I wasn't sure which way to go. It's

57:13

always those names that I know. Doesn't

57:16

matter. I know. If I were to

57:18

pick the other one, I would have

57:20

been wrong. somehow. Yeah. I definitely wouldn't have

57:22

happened. I try to get some of these names

57:24

right. People think that I don't do

57:26

any like, I look them

57:28

up. Yeah.

57:29

And I see Newscasters.

57:31

I watch Newscasters. These are people that

57:33

live in the area. Right. And I'm

57:35

thinking, okay, if they're saying

57:37

it this way, this must be the way you say it. The funny one

57:39

for me are the ones, like, the ones we've done in Oklahoma

57:42

words, like, the way it's spelled It

57:44

doesn't make any sense. Yeah. It would

57:46

it anybody seeing that word

57:48

would say, this is how you say this

57:50

word? Yes. Now that

57:51

one, I understand how --

57:54

Yes. -- I could

57:56

have easily guest blend. Right.

57:58

Like I said, I did do some research and

57:59

p a lot of people were saying it the other

58:02

way. Yeah. Alright,

58:04

buddy. That is it. For another episode of

58:06

True Crime all the time unsolved, so for

58:08

Mike -- And Gabby. -- stay safe and keep

58:11

your own time ticking.

58:27

he

58:44

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