0:01

Hi, it's Kellyanne Conway. And I'm David

0:03

Plouffe, and we have some surprising news.

0:05

We're teaming up for a brand new

0:07

podcast, The Campaign Managers. I know

0:09

what you're thinking. Why would Plouffe and

0:11

Kellyanne do this? Because frankly, Kellyanne,

0:14

we disagree on just about every issue, except

0:16

about what it takes to win a presidential

0:18

campaign. Kellyanne ran Donald Trump's

0:20

campaign, Iran Barack Obama's campaign. We understand

0:23

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play defense when you've made a mistake.

0:31

2024 is an election like none other. And David

0:33

Plouffe and I are going to take you behind

0:35

the scenes like no one else can. We're

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going to lean into our one-of-a-kind experiences,

0:39

really educate our listeners about what to

0:41

keep an eye on, and discuss the

0:43

current strategies and tactics that both campaigns

0:45

are deploying on the campaign trail. We're

0:48

going to disagree. We're going to dissent. But

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we're going to deliver. You won't

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want to miss this unique pairing. Join us

0:54

by listening to The Campaign Managers with Kellyanne

0:57

Conway and David Plouffe. The first

0:59

episode is out May 22nd, available wherever

1:01

you get your podcasts. Hello,

1:37

everyone, and welcome to episode 367

1:39

of the True Crime All the Time

1:41

Unsolved Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with

1:43

me, as always, is my partner in

1:46

true crime, Mike Gibson. Jimmy,

1:48

how are you? Hey, I'm doing

1:50

good. How about you? I'm doing

1:52

pretty good. I'm recuperating from CrimeCon.

1:55

You and I waited an extra day to

1:57

record just because we were... We're

2:00

kind of tired. A little wiped out. Yeah.

2:03

Yeah. It was a fun

2:05

weekend, but it takes something out of you. No

2:08

doubt about it. It was a lot

2:10

of fun though. Oh, I had a blast, man. We

2:12

got to meet a lot of

2:14

people that we've known for years, got

2:16

to meet a lot of new people,

2:19

met a ton of people who don't listen to

2:21

the show. No. Got to

2:23

talk to them about it, and hopefully they'll

2:26

give us a try. It worked out really well because you

2:28

would talk to them about the show. Why

2:30

you were doing that, I took their

2:32

phones and went into the apps

2:34

and made sure we were uploaded and

2:36

then put their phone back without them ever

2:38

knowing. Why are you whispering? I

2:41

don't know. It's like you're,

2:43

like it's a secret that you

2:45

are telling everybody who listens to

2:47

this podcast. Oh man. Yeah.

2:52

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon

2:54

shout outs. We had Kelly Thane. Hey

2:56

Thane. Zoe. What's going on

2:59

Zoe? James Rushworth. Hey, thanks James. Charity.

3:02

Well, good old charity. Eris Hop. What up

3:04

Hop? Martin. Hey

3:06

Martin. Ginger. Well, there's

3:08

Ginger. Danielle jumped out at her highest level.

3:11

Oh, thank you so much Danielle. Darren Abs.

3:13

What up Darren? You think with a

3:15

name like that that you have to keep a

3:17

six pack? I think so. I think it's kind

3:19

of like an obligation. It almost

3:22

would be. Yeah. Brandon Friart.

3:24

Easy for you to say. Katie

3:26

Long. Hey Long. And

3:28

last but not least, Jamie. J

3:31

to the A to the M to the IE. Did

3:33

I do that right? Kind of. I

3:36

guess. I don't know that there's a wrong

3:38

way to do whatever it is you just did. I

3:41

like that I spelled that correct. Yeah I think you

3:43

did. And then if we go back into the vault.

3:47

This week we selected Tish Not

3:49

Trish. Yeah, Tish, thank you. Yeah,

3:51

thanks for all the Patreon support.

3:53

We also had a great PayPal

3:55

donation from Christina Peterson. Alright Peterson.

3:58

So thank you to everyone. Everyone

4:00

gives right now, we have a new

4:02

episode out on true crime all the

4:04

time where we're talking about Wendy May

4:07

Davidson. She was

4:09

a veterinarian and claims

4:12

that she found her husband dead.

4:14

Yeah. Obviously the police

4:16

suspected her right away and things

4:19

kind of progressed from there. Very

4:22

interesting case. Yeah, it is. All

4:24

right buddy, are you ready to get into this

4:26

episode of true crime all the time on salt?

4:29

We're talking about the

4:31

mysterious disappearance of Ivan

4:33

and Anisha Fowler. Ivan

4:36

and Anisha Fowler are fraternal twins

4:39

who have been missing since 2006.

4:43

And you know, to me that right

4:46

there is pretty

4:48

unusual. The disappearance of

4:50

twins. It's not something that, you know,

4:52

I've heard about, I'm sure it's happened

4:54

before. It's just not something

4:57

that I've heard about. What

4:59

makes this case even more

5:01

unusual is the fact

5:04

that their disappearance was not

5:06

discovered until the summer of 2016. That

5:11

is 10 years. It's

5:13

a long time to keep that down the

5:15

down low. Well, and then you

5:18

have their mother. She has

5:20

not been able to account for

5:22

their whereabouts and apparently

5:24

has given multiple false statements

5:26

to the police. Some

5:28

bizarre statements for sure. And we'll

5:30

get into all of those, but just

5:33

how strange is that? Ten

5:36

years goes by and a mother

5:39

doesn't report her twins

5:42

missing, doesn't contact

5:45

a police. That

5:47

makes sense to no one. No, unless

5:50

you're guilty of something. And

5:52

I'm sure we'll get into it, but a

5:55

lot of people are probably going to think

5:57

that authorities believe the twins

5:59

are. on

10:00

where a protection

10:03

agency felt as

10:05

though they needed to have contact

10:07

with her to check

10:09

on these kids. Yeah. To make sure she's

10:11

doing the minimum that she's required to do

10:13

as a parent. Send your kids to school.

10:16

But she wasn't. No. And I know

10:18

you and I have probably talked about it before,

10:21

but these instances where

10:24

you have a, some sort of protection

10:27

agency and they very, you know, state

10:29

to state, but there's always

10:31

an agency that is supposed

10:33

to look out for children.

10:35

Sure. And they're doing house

10:39

checks sometimes are doing

10:41

follow-ups. And then it

10:43

comes out later that there

10:45

were umpteen number

10:47

of incidents, but

10:50

they never stepped in. Yeah. I'm

10:53

not, I'm not saying that was absolutely

10:55

the case here, but there have been

10:57

many cases like that that have kind

10:59

of given some of those agencies, those

11:02

specific agencies, a black eye, just

11:04

because it's very clear

11:07

in some cases that

11:09

the kids should have been removed. Yeah. And they failed to

11:11

act on that. Yes. Now specifically,

11:13

I'm kind of thinking of the

11:16

case of Gabriel Fernandez.

11:18

Oh yeah. Good. Good. I mean,

11:20

that's probably the one that people

11:22

point to the most. It's

11:25

believed that Ivan and Aneesha

11:28

Fowler have been missing since

11:30

September 11th, 2006,

11:34

they were seven years old at that time. But

11:36

as we mentioned early on, their

11:39

disappearance was not discovered until

11:42

June 20th, 2016. That's

11:46

ridiculous. Well, it

11:48

seems like it should almost be

11:51

impossible. Were they not enrolled in

11:53

school? Would the school not wonder

11:55

where they are? Yeah. Are they

11:58

true it? I mean, can you beat? up

14:00

on or nobody figured out that they

14:02

were unaccounted for. You

14:04

know, I, maybe she didn't allow

14:07

her family to ever see the kids

14:09

or talk to them or have

14:11

any contact, but I'm just

14:14

trying to figure out how, how does

14:16

anybody in that family don't realize that

14:18

they're missing the school, children's

14:21

services. Well, and I'm really

14:23

focusing on that. Yeah. Because

14:26

they had contact very

14:28

early on. And then for

14:31

whatever reason, there was nothing during

14:33

this 10 year

14:35

period. And then all of a sudden it's

14:37

like they remove four children

14:40

from the home. Yeah. And

14:42

I wonder if day one ever thought, Hey, what happened

14:44

to my younger brother and sister? I

14:46

haven't seen them in a while. I

14:49

haven't seen them for 10 years. Where'd they go? Now

14:51

he was also very young at

14:53

the time that they supposedly

14:56

disappeared, but yeah, you're right.

14:58

Now I'm assuming the younger kids

15:00

would have no knowledge possibly.

15:03

Detective Leo, Joey went

15:06

to the Holman Penn Hills to conduct

15:08

a welfare check. He told

15:10

WPXI, I figured it

15:12

was a simple misunderstanding. And

15:14

when we first talked to her, she was great.

15:17

She invited us in the house, showed

15:19

us around and said, here's all

15:22

the information. Patricia told him

15:24

that the twins were living with

15:26

family, but there was no

15:28

evidence to support her statement. Yeah.

15:31

But you would think if that was the

15:33

case, it'd be pretty easy to prove,

15:35

right? She's living with

15:37

my uncle in South

15:40

Carolina, wherever. I would

15:42

think in five minutes,

15:45

you could make a phone call and

15:47

figure out whether or not that was a

15:49

true statement. Yeah. Here, talk to the kids.

15:52

Patricia was brought in for further

15:54

questioning. She was adamant that the

15:56

twins were alive and well, but

15:59

she told more. multiple stories,

16:02

all of which were proven false. Yeah,

16:04

we know how that goes, right? When you start mixing

16:07

up your stories and

16:10

starting off with this story, then switching

16:12

to this story, you're not telling

16:14

the truth. Yeah, I think more

16:17

times than not, most of the

16:19

time, that's what that means. Because

16:22

as we've said many, many times,

16:25

the truth is very easy to tell. It

16:28

happened one way. And

16:30

if you ask me tomorrow, I'll say

16:32

the same thing. Now, if you ask me in 20

16:34

years, I might have a little harder

16:37

time. But if it's

16:39

in the same day, and I

16:41

tell you six different

16:43

versions, you know something

16:46

is up. Right. And

16:48

you know police definitely know something's up.

16:50

They do this for a living. A

16:53

lot of times they can tell when people

16:55

are lying when they're only telling one story.

16:57

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17:00

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17:02

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homework. Initially, Patricia said

19:16

that her children were living

19:18

with Cory Brooke and Cheryl

19:20

Walker in South Carolina. She

19:22

gave a number and address that

19:25

were incorrect. Well, I didn't know

19:27

you were actually going to try to call them. Shoot,

19:29

that didn't work out. Did it? It's like, hell,

19:31

I'll write you a check. I thought you wanted money.

19:34

Yeah. According

19:36

to the Pittsburgh Tribune

19:38

Democrat, she also provided

19:40

an address that turned out to

19:43

be a vacant storefront and

19:45

she named a city in Georgia that

19:47

does not exist. She's just making up

19:49

all kinds of stuff. I know that's that

19:51

last part. Sounds like something you would do

19:53

or have done and you have done

19:56

the police located Cheryl Walker

19:59

who by that time had a different last

20:01

name. According to a criminal

20:03

complaint, she said she never

20:05

saw the missing children, doesn't know

20:07

their names, and had

20:10

no idea that Fowler had twin

20:12

children. Okay. Not

20:14

helping your story. No. The

20:16

police spoke to the twins father who

20:18

said Patricia told him the twins were

20:21

living with an aunt in South Carolina.

20:23

So at this point, the

20:26

Allegheny County Sheriff's department and

20:28

the FBI got involved in the case.

20:30

I think they have to. Yeah. I

20:33

mean, how can you not think that

20:35

something is going on here? This

20:38

is a mother who's had multiple

20:41

children removed from her home

20:43

at different points. She

20:45

has two kids who are unaccounted for,

20:48

and she's given us multiple statements,

20:51

none of which have turned out to

20:53

be anywhere close to the truth. So

20:55

right now, I mean, she looks like a liar. I

20:57

think that's a fair statement. Reminds me a

21:00

little bit of that one story we

21:02

did on TCAT where the mom

21:04

and the new boyfriend were

21:06

living in Hawaii, and they would

21:08

tell everybody that the kids were fine, they

21:12

were with this family

21:14

member and. Was that the Lori

21:16

Daybell? Yeah. It just amazes

21:19

me what some people will go through. Or

21:22

what they think they can get away with.

21:24

Yeah. That people

21:27

aren't going to check this out. The police

21:29

aren't going to make a phone call. They're

21:31

going to follow up. Yeah.

21:34

Why wouldn't they? They just

21:36

don't take people's word. Yeah. They're

21:38

with Aunt Jenny. Eight, six, seven, five, three, oh,

21:40

nine. They're good. Don't worry about them. Oh,

21:43

okay. You look trustful. Yeah. You

21:45

can go back home. Patricia

21:47

then said that the kids were

21:49

with Corey Brooks and another woman.

21:52

She also gave a phone number that

21:54

she claimed belonged to her son, Ivan.

21:58

She recanted this statement and said

22:00

that the phone number belonged to a

22:02

friend. She also admitted to

22:04

lying to the twins father. I

22:07

mean, there's so many lies at this point. There's

22:10

no possible way that

22:13

the police are going to believe anything. This

22:16

woman said, Oh, she's lying about the lies.

22:19

Then she said the twins were with

22:21

her friend, Lisa, Hugh,

22:23

but she recanted this statement as

22:26

well. She does that a lot. It

22:28

seems like right now, right? Well, I'm

22:30

assuming that once she makes the

22:32

statement, she's then asked

22:34

to back it up. She's

22:37

unable to. And so

22:39

she says, well, that's, that's not, I'm

22:41

recanting. That's not right. And

22:43

then she tries to come up with the next one.

22:46

When the police pressed her for more

22:48

information, Patricia said she

22:50

sold her children. Does

22:53

that just like make

22:55

you get sick to your stomach? Yes. Knowing

22:58

how much I love my children

23:00

and also knowing how many people out

23:02

there want

23:05

children, but let's say can't have them.

23:09

I just don't understand how someone

23:11

could make the decision to sell their

23:14

children. They're a

23:16

commodity. Let me sell them. She

23:19

explained that several years earlier, she

23:21

met a man named Mike at

23:23

a bar in Homestead, Pennsylvania. Mike

23:26

introduced her to a woman named Barbara.

23:29

Patricia said she sold the

23:31

twins to Barbara for $2,000

23:33

each. So

23:36

she needed $4,000 so much. She

23:40

was willing to part with her two

23:42

kids, twins for

23:45

this money that would probably won't

23:47

last very long, but to give

23:49

up a lifetime with her kids. If

23:51

you believe what she's saying is true, which

23:53

is pretty hard to do at this point.

23:55

Absolutely. Because she's told, I don't know, I've

23:58

lost count. How many times she's lied? Yeah,

24:00

it's five or six times right

24:02

at this point. But here's

24:04

the thing that kind of went through my

24:07

mind is she was

24:09

giving these versions that

24:12

are very easy to disprove,

24:15

right? They're with a family

24:17

member. Okay, I

24:19

call the family member. I don't know

24:21

what you're talking about. Or that

24:24

address doesn't exist. That's not a

24:26

real phone number. Now,

24:29

this one's a little more murky. It's

24:31

going to be harder. You're

24:33

going to have to figure out, okay,

24:35

who's this mic guy? Who's

24:38

this Barbara? How do

24:40

we either corroborate the story

24:42

or disprove it? Patricia

24:45

said Barbara met the children

24:47

several times before she bought

24:49

them. And that's just really hard to

24:51

say. She bought them.

24:54

Like I have an old bike. That

24:57

I put on Facebook

24:59

market. I'm just trying to figure

25:01

out how this all goes. You

25:03

know, hey, come over to the house, preview

25:06

them. If you like them, go ahead

25:08

and close the deal. You know what, this

25:11

Barbara comes over. She's like, I kind of like them. I'm

25:13

not sure yet. I need to come back a few more

25:15

times. Then I'll let you know if this is going to

25:17

go through. And you said sick

25:20

to your stomach. And

25:23

that's where I'm at right now. Yeah. That's

25:26

the thought that someone could make

25:28

this decision. Again, if any of

25:30

this is true, right, I had

25:32

to put a caveat on everything that

25:35

this woman says. She also

25:37

said she spoke to Barbara earlier that

25:39

day. And the number

25:41

she said belonged to Ivan actually

25:43

belonged to Barbara, but

25:46

police couldn't make contact with anyone at

25:48

this number. It belonged

25:50

to a cell phone with

25:52

no operating voicemail, but at

25:54

least it wasn't a real number. It

25:56

actually dialed through. Right. So

25:59

did she just... just get lucky? I think

26:02

she probably did. Come up with

26:04

a number that just happened to

26:06

be a cell phone with no voicemail. Or

26:11

is she getting closer to

26:14

the truth? I'm not saying she's telling the truth,

26:16

but is she getting closer? Because, you know, I

26:18

do think what a lot of people do is

26:20

they, they'll

26:22

give you a little bit. They'll give you

26:25

something that's true, but then most of

26:27

it is a lot. The best

26:29

liars do that, right? They trickle

26:32

in enough of the truth. So

26:35

when they have to repeat it, they have

26:37

some of that in their head. So

26:39

they don't get caught up in the

26:41

lie as easily. So when

26:43

Patricia was told that selling her children

26:46

was illegal, she said, I didn't

26:48

sell them then and retracted her

26:50

statement. Oh, did I say I sold

26:52

them? No, no, no, no. I didn't

26:54

sell them. And first of all, who

26:57

doesn't know that selling your children is

26:59

illegal? I mean, that's just,

27:01

I just feel like that would be common

27:03

sense, right? Well, I

27:05

don't think you can use the term

27:07

common sense here. We're not seeing

27:09

any common sense.

27:12

I just wonder how like Patricia's family,

27:15

are they all just shaking their heads during all

27:17

this stuff? You know, one, I'm

27:19

sure they're extremely upset because they don't

27:21

know where their grand babies

27:24

are or nieces and nephew

27:26

or however the relationship is.

27:29

And they're thinking if you, if you didn't want to

27:31

care for them, why didn't you come to us? Right?

27:34

I mean, that's the way I look at it. If

27:36

I had somebody in my family that couldn't care for their kids,

27:39

don't go sell them or

27:41

do something bad, bring

27:44

them over. Well, and

27:46

I don't know what point they

27:48

found out about these five, six,

27:51

seven different lies, but

27:53

that couldn't have gone over

27:56

well. Right. Penn Hills

27:58

police chief Howard Burton told. the

28:00

local outlet WTAE, that's

28:03

the problem with her. She's all over

28:05

the place. We just don't know

28:07

what to believe or not to believe. And

28:09

I would say to him, don't

28:12

believe anything because none

28:14

of it is true. So

28:16

far. And does it make it hard for

28:18

you to take any type of action

28:21

against her? Because she's so

28:23

inconsistent that how

28:25

do you go after her for child endangerment

28:29

or whatever the charge could

28:31

be? Well, I think

28:33

at this point, they're just still trying

28:36

to gather evidence, but I mean,

28:38

they're going to need a little

28:40

bit of something, right? To,

28:42

to charge her. The police

28:44

have been unable to

28:46

verify any of Patricia's

28:48

explanations for the children's

28:50

whereabouts. Shocker. Yeah. But

28:52

this is part of what, you know,

28:55

floors me about this story.

28:58

Number one, you have a

29:00

mother who for 10 years didn't

29:03

say anything. Family,

29:05

the authorities that her

29:08

children are missing. And

29:10

then she tries to say at the age

29:12

of 17, which is what they

29:15

would have been. They're living with

29:17

all these different people. Well, none

29:19

of it checks out. I sold them. That's

29:22

illegal. No, I didn't. I didn't sell

29:24

them. Well, something happened. Yeah.

29:27

How do we get to the truth? And

29:30

my thought is it's going to

29:32

be hard to get to the truth because

29:34

whatever the truth is, is going

29:37

to implicate you in some former

29:40

fashion. Well, and you know, my

29:42

mind, the only thing I can think of is what

29:44

she's avoiding saying must be worse than

29:47

everything she's already said. Yeah. And I

29:49

think that's a great point. Worse

29:51

than selling your kids, which is

29:53

illegal. And I think you're

29:56

heading down a path of, you

29:58

know, could she possibly. have

30:00

done the worst thing

30:02

imaginable. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to

30:05

blame anybody for something if they didn't do it, but it's

30:07

not looking pretty. No, it's not looking

30:09

good. Detectives reached out

30:11

to the National Center for

30:13

Missing and Exploited Children and

30:15

checked records in Pennsylvania and

30:18

other states. There are

30:20

no records that Ivan or

30:22

Aneesha Fowler were enrolled in

30:25

school in Pennsylvania or other

30:27

states. So again, not

30:29

a good sign if the

30:31

thought is they're out there

30:33

living with someone. Yeah, they're with their

30:35

aunt, cousin, whoever, right? Yes, they couldn't

30:38

be with their cousin because that is

30:40

not a real word, but I

30:42

know what you're saying. Greeted disagree.

30:44

Now, if they were

30:47

trafficked, and I'm sure we'll talk

30:49

about this more throughout

30:51

the episode, my

30:53

assumption is they would

30:55

not be going by Ivan

30:58

and Aneesha Fowler. No, they'd have

31:00

new names. Yes. New

31:02

identities. No other family members

31:04

knew where the twins were. Some

31:07

family members had not seen Ivan or

31:09

Aneesha since 2002 or 2003, when they

31:12

were four and five years old. The

31:17

only available photograph of the twins

31:20

was taken when they were infants.

31:22

Man, that makes it so hard

31:25

to try to find the kids. Yeah, I

31:28

mean, pretty hard, I would

31:30

think, to do age progression

31:32

photos off of a

31:34

picture of a one-year-old. Yeah. Much

31:37

harder than if they were seven, eight,

31:39

something like that. But let's break

31:41

this down. We know that

31:44

family members didn't see them for

31:47

that 10-year period. Between 2006

31:49

and 2016, now they're saying, we

31:54

didn't see them for the three or four years

31:57

before 2006. Two

31:59

siblings. described how one twin

32:02

disappeared after the other. They

32:04

were simply gone one day and never

32:07

came back, according to the

32:09

Charlie Project. Chief Howard

32:12

Burton told people that Patricia's

32:14

25-year-old daughter recalled coming home

32:16

from school one day and

32:19

the twins were gone. Additionally, two

32:21

landlords who rented to Patricia between 2006 and

32:23

2015 were sure that the twins never lived

32:25

with her. So

32:31

we keep saying, right, this doesn't look

32:34

good, this doesn't look good. Well, here's

32:36

more things piling up.

32:39

Now you actually have two of her

32:41

other children saying one day one of

32:46

them was gone, the next day the other was

32:48

gone. And you have a landlord saying, from

32:51

2006 forward, they never

32:53

lived in this apartment building. So that

32:55

tells you they had to be missing since 2006. On

32:59

August 16, 2016,

33:02

Patricia Fowler was charged with

33:04

obstruction, child endangerment, unsworn falsification

33:08

to police, and

33:10

two counts of concealing the whereabouts of

33:12

a child. So none of these

33:14

are good, but they're obviously

33:16

not murder or anything like

33:19

that because the police

33:23

have no proof whatsoever of

33:26

what actually happened. You know,

33:28

I don't get frustrated a lot, but this case has really

33:31

gotten me frustrated. I'm sitting here,

33:33

we're doing this recording, and

33:37

my blood pressure's up. Now

33:39

I know you very well, and

33:41

I know your faces, your emotions,

33:43

you're pissed. I can tell it.

33:46

But this is going to

33:49

bring out those types of emotions, I think, in

33:51

a lot of people. You

33:54

have two kids

33:57

who nobody sees for 10 years.

34:00

But there are no

34:02

alarms raised. And

34:04

so, you know, where's the

34:06

family? Where's the school?

34:08

Where are the agencies?

34:11

My assumption though, is

34:14

that when it comes to the family, Patricia

34:17

would have been

34:19

very distant, not

34:21

going to see family, not

34:23

allowing family to come see her, right?

34:26

Because she's not going to

34:28

be able to explain where

34:31

Ivan and Inesha are. Chief

34:34

Howard Burton told the Pittsburgh Tribune

34:37

Review, no one seems to know

34:39

where they are. No one seemed

34:41

to care. They just moved on. The

34:43

more we dug into it,

34:45

the more confusing it became.

34:48

I believe it. Yeah. Because I do

34:50

think it is very

34:52

confusing, would be very confusing.

34:55

To anybody who knew her,

34:58

was related to her, anybody

35:00

that knew she had these twins to

35:03

find out that nobody knows where they are.

35:06

And it's also very confusing for

35:08

the police because they don't know

35:11

what happened. They know she's

35:13

not telling the truth. True

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for the love of home on

37:17

August 17th, the Penn

37:19

Hills police department said they

37:22

briefly made contact with someone

37:24

who identified themselves as Ivan

37:27

using a number provided by

37:29

Patricia on August 8th.

37:32

So Patricia provides the number, the

37:34

police talked to somebody that

37:37

claims to be Ivan, but

37:40

nothing's verified that we know of. Well,

37:43

and it would be pretty hard to verify

37:45

over the phone. Right. Nobody

37:47

is going to know what

37:50

Ivan sounds like. The

37:52

police surely are not going to know. No. And

37:55

can we put it past her at this point? Because

37:57

she's lied so much to have. Somebody,

38:00

she knows, Hey, I need

38:02

you to use this phone and call

38:04

this number. Or if this number calls you,

38:06

you need to answer it. I need you

38:09

to say, you're Ivan. I'm not saying

38:11

that's what happened, but it could have happened. Well,

38:13

we referenced Seinfeld a lot and

38:16

you know, how different is it

38:18

than when George, you know,

38:20

went to the bathroom, told Kramer,

38:22

if somebody calls, answer the phone

38:24

is Vandalay Industries. Of course, Kramer didn't

38:26

do that. But when you're

38:28

talking about a phone call, pretty

38:31

much like it is online. People

38:34

can claim to be anyone. Yes.

38:37

And you don't know. Patricia requested a

38:40

sit down interview with Pittsburgh's

38:42

action news for reporter Kelly

38:44

Brennan to tell her side of the

38:46

story. She explained that she was

38:48

a struggling mother when she made the decision

38:51

to give up the twins. Their

38:53

father was in and out of jail. So

38:55

she sent them to live with family

38:57

friend Cheryl Willis when they were seven

38:59

years old. She claimed that Willis initially

39:02

had the twins in North Carolina, but

39:04

they had been in Georgia since they

39:06

were 13. Now there's

39:09

two things here that pop out to

39:11

me. The first is this

39:13

is a story that she has

39:15

not told the law enforcement at

39:18

this point. She's told, she's told a lot

39:20

of stories, but this is not one of

39:22

them. And then the

39:24

second thing is it seems

39:26

odd to me that she would want to

39:28

do a sit down interview. Okay.

39:31

She wants to tell her side of the

39:33

story. She's told her side of

39:35

the story many different times.

39:37

Yes. None of them have

39:39

checked out. Why should we believe you now? And

39:42

if this is the truth, why wouldn't

39:44

you walk into the police and say, Hey, I

39:46

know I lied all that other stuff. I

39:49

was scared. Here's what really happened.

39:52

But this is a story that's not all

39:54

that different from some of the other

39:56

lies. So it begs

39:58

the question. this was

40:00

true, why not just tell this story

40:02

from the beginning? The

40:04

very first story you told

40:06

law enforcement was something similar.

40:09

Yeah. They were with, you

40:11

know, this person in South Carolina. All

40:14

you did was change it to a different

40:16

person in North Carolina. I mean,

40:18

at the end of the day, if this is

40:20

all true, it should be something that can be

40:23

validated. Sure. Reporter Kelly Brennan

40:25

asked bottom line. What is

40:27

your ultimate truth about Ivan

40:29

and I Nisha? Patricia

40:31

responded that they're with a family

40:34

friend. Patricia explained

40:36

how she struggled with all the

40:38

questioning she went through telling action

40:40

news for at the time, being

40:43

that I have a learning disability, it's

40:46

like a lot of questions they're asking me

40:49

and I don't understand. It's like

40:51

three of them are asking me the

40:53

same question and like

40:55

interrogating me, and I

40:57

feel like that was the problem when

40:59

I came in. I didn't know what to do

41:02

and I knew for a fact I

41:04

didn't sell my kids and they're not

41:06

missing. Okay. So I

41:08

want to say this first off,

41:11

it could be true that she

41:13

has a learning disability and

41:15

that would make it tougher

41:17

for anyone and a pressure

41:20

cooker interrogation

41:23

setting for sure. But here's the

41:25

thing. I still don't understand

41:27

why you would tell a very

41:30

similar story than the one

41:32

you're saying now is true. Why

41:35

would you just not have told that from

41:37

the beginning? Right. When I come

41:39

out of the gate with the true

41:41

story, this is the true story. Yes.

41:44

You have the kids, you had six kids

41:47

that I, that I know of. I

41:49

think it was six. I don't know if it was six

41:51

or seven children that she had. Maybe

41:54

seven because we talked about

41:56

an older daughter. So

41:59

you bring those. kids into the world, you're

42:01

responsible for them. And when you go

42:04

to the police and they want you to be accountable

42:06

for them, just tell them what happened.

42:09

I get the, you know, it's terrible to

42:11

have a learning disability, but you kind

42:13

of set yourself up when you continue to

42:15

lie, that's when they're going to

42:17

get probably more aggressive with you because you're not

42:20

making any sense. And they're going to sense

42:22

the fact that you're trying to hide

42:25

something. Patricia said about her

42:27

kids, I had contact with them

42:29

throughout the years. Over

42:31

the years I've had contact with them,

42:33

but they've moved. It's like,

42:35

I don't have no information about the

42:38

move. And then I give the cops

42:40

the number and it's up to them and

42:42

they got a call and get all the

42:44

information from this friend. Patricia's

42:46

son, day twam also spoke to

42:48

action news four and said he'd

42:51

been in contact with Ivan on

42:53

social media. He claimed Ivan

42:56

was in Pittsburgh on August 17th, 2016, but was

42:58

taking a bus

43:01

back to Georgia, he gave reporter

43:03

Kelly Brennan a phone number, but

43:05

her calls went to voicemail and

43:08

this is pretty interesting because up

43:10

until now. We've really

43:12

only talked about what

43:15

Patricia has said, right? But

43:17

now day twan is actually

43:20

talking to the media. And

43:23

he's saying Ivan was in Pittsburgh

43:25

in 2016 on social media. Wouldn't

43:29

they be able to find some type of

43:31

record? Maybe not, but I'm thinking

43:33

maybe they could. And remember if

43:35

he's going by Ivan and they

43:37

did that school search for

43:39

records and never found anything,

43:41

it seems a little strange

43:43

unless Ivan never went to school. Well,

43:46

back to your earlier point, if you want

43:48

to clear it all up and

43:51

your day twan, you could

43:53

produce the communication that

43:56

you had with Ivan.

43:58

You could give them. his Facebook

44:02

account or whatever, all

44:05

of these things that we keep talking

44:07

about seem to be pretty easy to

44:09

clear up, but

44:12

the police are never able to clear them

44:14

up. And you know, this is blowing up in

44:16

the media at the time. Are you telling me

44:18

that somehow it's not getting back

44:21

to the twins? I would think if

44:23

you were the twin, you, you know, if you're Ivan

44:25

or Anisha, you're thinking we're right here.

44:27

Let me just call the police up and say,

44:30

if you know who you are, yeah,

44:33

if you know that you're Ivan, if

44:36

you know that you're Aynisha Fowler, if

44:39

you've been living under a different

44:41

name since you were an infant,

44:44

maybe you don't know. Well, that's true. But

44:46

if day two, one's telling the truth, then

44:49

his brother knows who he is. Shortly

44:52

after his mother was charged, 18

44:55

year old day, twon Fowler was

44:57

accused of impersonating Ivan

45:00

Fowler. He was charged with

45:02

intimation relation or obstruction in

45:04

child abuse cases, criminal

45:07

conspiracy, obstructing administration

45:10

of law or other government

45:12

function and giving false identification

45:15

to law enforcement. Well, there

45:17

you go. And that helps to clear

45:20

that part of the mystery up,

45:23

except for the reason

45:25

why, why would day

45:27

twon do this? Was it to

45:30

help out his mother? You know, that

45:32

part, we still have to figure out,

45:35

right? The complaint stated that

45:37

the Penn Hills police received a

45:39

Facebook message from Ivan

45:42

D Fowler on August 17th. The

45:45

user provided the same phone number

45:47

Patricia provided during her interview

45:50

on August 8th. Several calls went

45:53

straight to voicemail and several calls

45:55

were missed. A detective sent

45:57

a text to the number and

45:59

received. response from

46:01

someone identifying himself

46:03

as Ivan. He said he

46:06

and Aynisha were in Atlanta.

46:08

He declined to speak and

46:10

shut the device off. Okay.

46:14

So this individual with the phone, they

46:16

think they're smarter than the authorities. They're

46:19

like, you know what? I think we can fool them.

46:21

I'm going to buy this phone. I'm going

46:23

to say it's Ivan's. I'm

46:25

going to make an account on

46:28

Facebook and say it's him. Send that

46:30

message. And when they call, I'm

46:32

not going to answer. And when they text,

46:34

I'll text back and then I'll just kill the phone.

46:36

I'll shut it off. They'll never know.

46:39

But that will put police completely

46:41

off of

46:44

my mom, myself, but

46:46

that goes back to people thinking that they're

46:48

smarter than what they are because you

46:51

can just look at that and know

46:53

that police are never going to

46:55

fall for something like that. No.

46:58

And then, of all, back to something you

47:00

said, which is if you

47:02

are Ivan, if you are

47:05

Aynisha and you know that

47:08

the police are wondering

47:10

what happened to you, your mother

47:12

is being questioned and

47:14

you really are with a family friend, you

47:17

would answer the phone and clear

47:19

the whole thing up or

47:21

you would call the police station

47:23

or the police department yourself.

47:25

Yeah. You're not going to just send

47:28

a quick text message back. This is

47:30

like back in the day when I wanted

47:33

to spend the night at my girlfriend's house, but

47:35

I wasn't allowed. So I would call

47:37

my mom from my friend's house and

47:40

say, hey, I'm spending the night over here using

47:43

his phone. And as soon as I

47:45

hung up, walk out the door and go down the

47:47

road a little bit and spend the night

47:50

at my girlfriend's. Thinking my mom's not going to figure

47:52

that out, but my mom did. Yeah.

47:54

And that was harder back then because you had

47:56

to get connected through an operator. I

48:00

don't know about that, but my mom was like. I

48:02

need Madison 5227. My

48:05

mom was like, I knew you were lying

48:07

because you never called me from your

48:09

friend's house to tell me, you always would tell

48:11

me before you left. Yeah. You

48:14

know? You know moms are kind of smart. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

48:16

And you already asked if you could spend the night at your

48:18

girlfriend's that day and I said no. So I knew right

48:20

then, oh my gosh, yeah.

48:23

To make a story shorter, if I can

48:25

even do that. Not at this point.

48:27

No, but I left my friend's house by the time

48:29

I got down to my girlfriend's house, my mom was

48:31

down the street with the lights off. And as soon

48:33

as I turned into the driveway, I'd walk with the

48:35

door. She did that thing where she turned the brights

48:37

on. Like I was like, caught.

48:39

Caught. Yeah, I was like, oh, damn

48:41

it. Again, moms are smart.

48:43

They are. So during this

48:46

text conversation, the police tracked the

48:48

phone and discovered it was

48:50

in Penn Hills. When the phone

48:52

was turned back on, it was

48:55

tracked to Patricia's home. Yeah, the

48:57

police were like, bingo. Yeah,

48:59

I mean, who didn't see that coming?

49:02

When the police executed a search warrant,

49:04

they found Dae-Tuan Fowler trying to

49:06

leave the home with the phone.

49:09

He said he had planned on running once they

49:11

showed up. He then admitted the

49:13

number did not belong to Ivan and

49:15

he was actually the one they spoke to. He

49:18

created a fake number and

49:20

pretended to be Ivan. So the

49:22

police would stop asking him and

49:24

his mother questions about the twins.

49:27

He then said the twins

49:29

were okay. If the twins

49:31

were okay, then you would allow the

49:33

police to talk to them so they

49:35

knew. And you wouldn't

49:37

have to go through this whole

49:40

charade. Absolutely. If you're

49:42

tired of all this, then just tell the truth

49:44

and put the police in contact with the twins

49:46

and it's all over. A judge

49:48

postponed the preliminary hearing for the second

49:50

time. On September 12, 2016, Patricia was

49:52

ordered to

49:55

get a mental health evaluation and

49:58

have no contact with children. while

50:00

she faced criminal charges. She

50:03

wasn't in prison at this time, but

50:05

Dae Twon was still in jail. His

50:08

hearing was also postponed. Penn

50:10

Hill's Chief Howard Burton said

50:12

about the investigation. According to

50:15

WTAE, they do exist, because

50:17

at one time, when

50:19

they were three or four years old, I believe,

50:22

CYF did take those two

50:24

children from Fowler. Yeah,

50:27

so they're real, they're real kids. Yeah,

50:29

I never doubted that part. What

50:32

I have doubted are all

50:34

the stories about where

50:36

they are now, where

50:38

they have been. Yeah. The

50:40

National Center for Missing and Exploited

50:43

Children released aged, progressed

50:45

images of the twins. Patricia's

50:48

preliminary hearing took place on October 31st, 2016.

50:52

Dae Twon waived his hearing. They

50:55

were both ordered to stand trial

50:57

on their respective charges. Detective

50:59

Michael Kuma testified at

51:01

the hearing as quoted by

51:04

the Williamsport Sung Gazette. In

51:06

my professional opinion, I

51:08

believe they've met their demise. And

51:11

I understand where that

51:14

comes from. These children, as

51:17

far as anyone can tell, have

51:19

not been seen or heard from since

51:22

they were what, six or seven years

51:24

old? Yeah. They're out

51:26

there taking care of themselves. No.

51:29

Detective Kuma believes Ivan and

51:31

Aneesh are dead because of

51:33

statements made by Dae Twon.

51:35

Dae Twon said he believed the twins were

51:38

sick when he last saw them on

51:40

September 11th, 2006. He

51:43

specifically remembered Ivan being sick when

51:45

they lived in Braddock, Pennsylvania.

51:48

One night he went to bed, and

51:51

Ivan was not there when he woke up.

51:53

Dae Twon said the same thing

51:55

happened with Aneeshia a few years

51:57

later. On the day of the hearing. WTAE

52:00

reported that the children spent most

52:03

of their lives locked in a

52:05

bedroom, according to detectives

52:07

and family. Their grandmother,

52:10

Charlene Miller told WTAE,

52:13

I didn't know about the locked bedroom, but

52:15

I know she didn't allow them out

52:17

of the house. She wouldn't let them

52:19

come to my house or to my

52:22

daughters. Yeah, she kept them away from

52:24

family. Like you mentioned, it just seems like

52:26

a case of neglect when you hear

52:28

some of this stuff. A very serious case.

52:30

Yes. And I would, I would

52:32

say abuse. Yeah. Not just

52:35

neglect abuse. My question

52:37

is, was it just the two of

52:39

them or was it all the kids

52:42

that were kept locked up and

52:44

why, if not, why just them? Yeah,

52:46

that's a good point. You know, did she have

52:48

an issue with the two and

52:50

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55:56

melancholy. said

56:00

after the hearing that his client has been

56:02

very loyal to his mother, but

56:04

he declined to comment on the charges.

56:07

And that is true. DeTuan was

56:09

very loyal to his mother

56:12

to the point where he was willing

56:14

to lie to police

56:17

and, you know, basically fabricate,

56:20

make up this whole charade

56:24

to try to get the police

56:26

off of his mom's back. In

56:28

December, 2016, a cadaver dog

56:31

searched the house in the Pittsburgh

56:33

area, but the search turned up

56:35

no evidence on January 25th, 2017. Patricia

56:40

was charged with collecting more than

56:42

$50,000 in welfare benefits

56:46

on behalf of the twins. She

56:48

was not immediately arrested, but was

56:51

expected to surrender on charges of

56:53

theft and making false statements to

56:55

authorities. It's pretty bad too, right?

56:58

If we're no longer living with you, but yet

57:00

you're still collecting money from the state. And

57:03

I think we're starting to get into

57:05

the area of motive,

57:08

maybe not so much as

57:10

it pertains to exactly what happened

57:12

to them, but why

57:15

she would not have

57:17

reported what happened to them.

57:19

And it was probably because

57:22

she wanted to keep collecting

57:24

these benefits. Yeah. According

57:27

to the Pittsburgh Tribune, Democrat,

57:29

Patricia collected state food stamps,

57:31

public assistance and medical benefits.

57:35

She had been collecting benefits since

57:37

June, 2011, and continued doing so

57:40

through the end of August, 2016. After

57:44

she was charged with

57:46

concealing the twins whereabouts. What's

57:48

even worse, right? Well,

57:51

you would think someone at some

57:53

level in a government agency

57:55

would shut that down, but

57:58

it doesn't seem like there's a check and balance. Patricia

58:01

was arrested on the new charges a

58:03

few days later and reigned

58:05

on January 29. Afterwards,

58:08

she was sent to the Allegheny

58:10

County Jail. Several months later on

58:12

May 17, 2017, a

58:16

judge threw out most of

58:18

the charges against Patricia due

58:20

to lack of evidence. She

58:23

was still in jail for the theft

58:25

charges at this time. The

58:27

judge let stand a charge of

58:29

unsworn false suffocation alleging

58:31

Patricia made misleading statements to

58:33

the police. So it

58:36

does sound as though a lot of

58:38

the charges, because I think she had

58:40

like four charges before

58:42

the theft charges even came up.

58:45

It sounds like the majority of them

58:47

got thrown out. The judge

58:49

found insufficient evidence to

58:52

support the charges of obstruction

58:54

and concealment, finding that Patricia

58:56

did not obstruct the case or

58:59

endanger the children because there

59:01

was no evidence they had been harmed. And

59:04

I get that. I mean, as

59:06

tough as it sounds, if

59:08

there's no evidence, there's no

59:10

evidence. Yeah. If you can't prove

59:12

anything. Now, common sense would

59:14

tell you something's not

59:16

right, but there's no evidence to

59:18

prove what happened to them.

59:20

If something did happen to them, that

59:23

makes it very tough from like a

59:26

judge's standpoint. Yeah. You got to stick with the

59:28

law, right? Now the judge did

59:30

criticize the Allegheny County office of

59:32

children, youth, and families for not

59:35

keeping better track of Ivan and

59:37

Inesha over the years. Yeah. I

59:39

think they let the kids down.

59:41

Yeah. I think they dropped

59:43

the ball and we talked

59:46

about it earlier. I had that question. You

59:48

know, you have this alleged

59:51

water scalding incident. There's

59:53

no followup throughout the

59:55

years, but yet there

59:58

seem to be a lot of stuff going on. the

1:00:00

children were taken away, they were given

1:00:02

back, but there's a 10 year

1:00:04

period where there was no

1:00:06

check on these two children.

1:00:09

No. And, and there's no way around

1:00:11

that. Case workers did

1:00:13

not alert the police or start

1:00:15

the process of removing Ivan from

1:00:17

the home after he was

1:00:19

badly burned in 2000. A

1:00:22

case worker testified at a

1:00:24

2006 hearing that the twins

1:00:26

were reportedly living with relatives

1:00:28

in North Carolina. Five

1:00:30

months later, the agency closed the

1:00:32

case after a judge was told

1:00:35

the twins could not be located.

1:00:37

Additionally, the office of children,

1:00:39

youth, and families could

1:00:42

not validate that the two children

1:00:44

viewed by case workers in 2006

1:00:47

were actually the twins. The child

1:00:49

who was presented to them as Ivan

1:00:52

did not have any burn scars according

1:00:54

to the judge. This is a

1:00:56

big mess. It is. I mean, it's

1:00:58

a cluster and it

1:01:00

sounds to me as though

1:01:03

what Patricia tried to do with

1:01:06

police during her interviews

1:01:09

is what she did with some of

1:01:11

these case workers. But they kind

1:01:14

of just took it. Oh, the

1:01:16

kids are in, in North Carolina, but

1:01:18

there was no verification

1:01:21

of that. And was that because

1:01:24

they worked in Pennsylvania and didn't feel

1:01:26

as though they needed to follow up.

1:01:29

That wouldn't seem right. It doesn't, but that

1:01:31

could be the truth. And the problem is

1:01:34

when you have all this inconsistent

1:01:36

information, it's not going to help the case.

1:01:39

No. And I, and again, I do think

1:01:41

they messed up here. I don't

1:01:43

want to be too hard on case workers.

1:01:46

I do believe that's a very tough job,

1:01:48

but when they don't get it

1:01:50

right, the ramifications can

1:01:52

be disastrous. At

1:01:55

the end of May, Patricia was

1:01:58

released on a non-monetary. bond.

1:02:01

I just like saying, go ahead and

1:02:03

go. I mean, she's really at this

1:02:05

point, getting off pretty

1:02:08

much scott free for

1:02:11

the first set of charges. But

1:02:13

again, as the judge said, where's

1:02:15

the evidence that she

1:02:17

did anything other than, you know,

1:02:19

give some false statements. Yeah. Now

1:02:21

she did give a lot of them. She did.

1:02:24

But regarding the kids, they just don't have

1:02:26

a case. It's going to be hard. You

1:02:29

have to prove something illegal happened. I don't

1:02:31

know if they can do that. No,

1:02:33

we can sit here and think that it

1:02:35

did all we want and you

1:02:37

can go through a number of different scenario.

1:02:40

But like you said, finding the

1:02:42

proof of that is

1:02:44

going to be very tough. Yeah.

1:02:47

On July 17th, 2017, Patricia

1:02:49

Fowler pleaded guilty to making

1:02:51

false, unsworn statements, trapped

1:02:54

in fraud. She was sentenced to four

1:02:56

years probation. She's also required

1:02:58

to pay back the $57,000 in

1:03:01

public assistance she collected over

1:03:03

the years. That same day,

1:03:06

prosecutors dropped the charges

1:03:08

against day twon Fowler.

1:03:11

Day twon's defense attorney said

1:03:13

that day twon sent the

1:03:16

message pretending to be Ivan at

1:03:18

his mother's behest. I think

1:03:20

he was in a tough position as

1:03:22

the older brother, the

1:03:25

son. Well, I can imagine Patricia

1:03:28

going to him and saying, Hey, can

1:03:31

you do this for me? They won't get off

1:03:33

my back. This'll work.

1:03:36

I can see that. Yeah. And

1:03:38

if we don't do this, something really bad is

1:03:40

going to happen to me. And do

1:03:42

you, do you not want your mom around? Yeah,

1:03:45

I can see something like that. His

1:03:47

defense attorney told the Pittsburgh Post

1:03:49

Gazette that they twon has

1:03:52

a strained relationship with Patricia and

1:03:54

has not seen the twins since

1:03:56

they were all small children, which

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