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1:09

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Episode 311

1:12

of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved Podcast.

1:15

I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is

1:17

my partner in true crime,

1:18

Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? I'm doing well. How

1:21

about you? I'm doing okay. I'm doing

1:23

okay. It's been a rough week. We lost

1:26

our oldest dog, Bodie, and

1:29

that's been really tough on the family. It

1:31

has. Everybody listening who's gone

1:33

through that knows exactly

1:35

how tough that is. But you

1:37

got to go on, man. You got to go on. But

1:40

we're all thinking of you. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate

1:42

that. And I'm sure a lot

1:45

of fans will reach out, and it'll be touching. It

1:47

always is. They do when anything happens

1:49

to you or I.

1:52

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

1:55

We had Dave McMullen, Terry

1:57

Justice, Maria Lucas.

1:59

I think it's Lucas. It could be. Yeah.

2:03

I'm trying to make it fancy, I guess. You are a fancy kind of guy. Pierce

2:05

Franklin. Hey, Franklin. Amy Colombo.

2:08

What's going on, Colombo? Nagy Esther. Esther.

2:11

Victoria H. Hey, H. Heather.

2:14

What's going on, Heather?

2:15

Lissa Armour jumped out at our highest level. Well, you're

2:17

awesome, Armour. Basilio Gallo. Gallo. That's

2:20

fun to say. Yeah.

2:22

JH. What's going on, H? Rachel

2:24

jumped out at our highest level. Thanks,

2:26

bro. Christine Akey. Hey, there's Akey. Grounded

2:29

Tarot. Well, thank you, Grounded. Annie

2:31

and Jason Dillon. Thank you, Annie and Jason. Selena. Well,

2:34

appreciate that, Selena. Summer Connors. Hey, Connors.

2:37

Jeannie O'Tay. Oh, you're O'Tay. Jeannie.

2:40

Jeannie, are you okay? Kelly Hogue jumped

2:42

out at our highest level. Awesome, Hogue.

2:45

And last but not least, Anna

2:46

Chambers. Thank you, Chambers. And then

2:48

if we go back into the vault. Okay, we're going to

2:51

go back to the vault. We're going to go back to the vault.

2:54

Thank you, Chambers. And then if we go back into the vault,

2:57

this week we selected Lisa

2:59

Sangalang. Hey, there's Lisa. Yeah, appreciate

3:02

all of the support. We also had a great PayPal

3:04

donation from Teresa Fisher. Well,

3:07

Teresa, that's awesome. So right now on True

3:09

Crime All the Time, we have an episode out

3:11

on Melissa McManus.

3:13

This is a heck of a story. It's

3:16

heartbreaking, but this was

3:18

a 16-year-old girl

3:20

who murdered her infant

3:23

son. Yeah. Now, the story is

3:25

murky because she told so many

3:27

different stories. She did. She did it.

3:30

She didn't do it. She wasn't even pregnant.

3:32

She had accomplices who actually

3:34

did it. I think there was like five different...

3:37

At least. Yeah. At

3:39

least. But that episode's out. Make sure you

3:41

listen. All right,

3:42

buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode

3:44

of True Crime All the Time Unsolved? I'm ready. We

3:47

are talking about the disappearance of

3:49

Lee Cutler on the morning of October

3:51

20th,

3:54

Lee Cutler dropped a friend off

3:56

after spending the night with a group of

3:58

friends.

3:59

by an employee at a local gas

4:02

station. Two days later, his car

4:04

was found almost 200 miles away from

4:06

home near Baraboo, Wisconsin,

4:10

but Lee was nowhere to be found.

4:12

Lee Sterling Cutler was born on

4:14

October 2nd, 1989. He

4:17

was just 18 when he went missing.

4:20

And if he stole alive today,

4:22

he would be 33 years old.

4:24

Lee was a senior in high school at the time

4:26

of his disappearance. He lived with

4:28

his mom and stepfather,

4:30

Beth and Barry Frasen in

4:32

Buffalo Grove, Illinois, a suburb

4:35

of Chicago. Been there. Have you?

4:37

Yeah. Buffalo Grove. I have. I've never

4:39

even heard of it. Yep. I've been to Chicago

4:41

a number of times, and I've been to some

4:43

of the suburbs, but not

4:46

Buffalo Grove.

4:47

Barry passed away on August 28th, 2008.

4:50

According

4:50

to Find a Grave, Lee also

4:53

had a brother and a stepsister.

4:55

His biological father is Daniel

4:57

Cutler.

4:58

According to a 2007 article in the Chicago

5:02

Tribune,

5:02

Lee was dating a girl named Autumn

5:05

Rizzio, but one of Lee's friends

5:08

later told the police that the

5:10

two had recently broken up

5:12

before Lee went missing.

5:14

Autumn described Lee as someone who

5:16

wanted to make others happy. Lee

5:18

was the kind of person who would always show up

5:20

for his friends when they were having a hard time, but

5:23

he had difficulty

5:25

sharing his own struggles. Not

5:27

surprised to hear something like that, right? A lot

5:30

of the people that show up for others have

5:32

that problem of not being able

5:35

to reach out for help back. Yeah.

5:37

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. And

5:39

it was documented that Lee dealt

5:41

with mental health issues throughout

5:43

high school. He first showed signs

5:46

of suicidal tendencies a year

5:48

and a half before his disappearance. Beth

5:51

believes this was due to his relationship

5:53

with his first girlfriend. Lee met

5:55

his girlfriend when she was a junior and

5:58

he was a freshman. As she

5:59

was. was preparing for college. She

6:01

told Lee that she wanted him to come visit

6:04

her and expressed her desire

6:06

to marry him.

6:07

Lee told her he wouldn't be able to visit

6:09

often because he was in school.

6:11

He ended the relationship,

6:13

but was very affected by the

6:16

breakup.

6:17

And I think we all get hit pretty hard from

6:19

our first true love, um,

6:22

relationship breakup. It's, it's, it

6:24

can be difficult navigating through

6:27

that. Well, it's, it's something you and I have

6:29

touched on in the past.

6:30

You know, when you're 15, 16 years old, everything

6:36

seems so magnified, right?

6:39

Every situation, every thing

6:42

that happens to you in life, a

6:44

lot of times seems like the end

6:46

of the world, the biggest thing that's

6:48

ever going to happen. Well, obviously

6:51

it's not because you're going to have a lot

6:53

bigger

6:54

trials and tribulations as you get

6:56

older. We've all experienced that,

6:59

but you can't tell a 16 year old dad.

7:01

No, you can't. I mean, I know when I was 16, I

7:03

didn't listen to my parents when they say, don't

7:06

worry, it gets better. You're going to be fine.

7:08

I told my kids that, you know, it doesn't

7:11

matter, but you just have to go through it because

7:13

in the mind of a 15, 16, 17 year old, it's

7:15

devastation.

7:17

Yeah. Yeah.

7:19

Now I'm not saying everyone, but I think

7:21

to a lot of them, and especially around

7:24

love and the loss of that

7:28

type of relationship, like you

7:30

said, it hits very hard.

7:32

It does. And sometimes that

7:35

relationship is like a month old. You

7:37

know, to me, that's the, the part

7:39

that doesn't quite make sense, but

7:41

you can't make sense sometimes of a young

7:44

person's brain. They're

7:46

like, you only been going out with that guy or girl

7:48

for

7:49

four weeks. What do you, what are you crying

7:51

over? But that was the one that was

7:54

the one. Yeah. You know, in that person's mind,

7:56

that was the one

7:57

Lee brought a knife to school

7:59

and throw.

7:59

and end his life, he was taken

8:02

to the hospital that day.

8:03

He told his mother that he wanted to go

8:05

home, but she told him he couldn't because

8:08

she didn't know if he would

8:10

hurt himself. And

8:12

I've never been in this exact

8:14

situation, but

8:16

I could understand

8:17

his mother making

8:20

this decision. I get it, you

8:22

wanna come home. Sure. But I'm not

8:24

comfortable with that. I need

8:27

medical trained personnel

8:30

to watch over you. Tough

8:32

decision for a parent, right? Yeah. But

8:35

the

8:35

right decision. Lee eventually

8:37

left the hospital and he continued

8:40

seeing a therapist, but Beth felt

8:42

like he was just going along with the therapy

8:45

and not fully participating in

8:47

it. She didn't think being hospitalized

8:50

was beneficial for Lee because it

8:52

made him

8:53

fearful

8:54

of going back. If

8:57

he had a relapse or another incident,

9:00

Lee's family felt like he became more reserved

9:03

and secretive

9:04

after this incident happened. So

9:07

we just said probably the right decision. And

9:10

I still think that's true, but

9:12

now you have

9:14

a little bit more information.

9:16

Okay, is he not going

9:18

to open up and share

9:20

what he's going through because he doesn't

9:23

wanna be put back in that situation

9:25

where he's hospitalized and it

9:27

sounds like he didn't wanna go to therapy, but

9:29

had to and just kind of went through the motions. And

9:32

that's always that fear

9:34

for a parent that does that, right? What

9:36

if because of my actions, by

9:39

not allowing him to come home when he wanted

9:41

to, he's gonna bottle it up, not

9:44

wanna tell me anymore, in fear that I'm gonna turn

9:46

around and put him back in, and then what can

9:48

happen at that time? There's no way to know

9:50

as a parent

9:52

in the moment that you're making a decision,

9:55

A, if it's right or wrong, or

9:58

B, what ramifications. that

10:00

decision could possibly have in the future.

10:02

There's just not always a way to know all that

10:04

stuff. I think if I

10:06

had to guess her only thought

10:08

at that time was

10:10

I want to make sure my son stays alive.

10:13

We can deal with the, the ramifications.

10:16

Later.

10:17

Lee was a good student and

10:20

he was an active leader in the

10:23

B'nai birth

10:24

youth organization, abbreviated

10:26

as BBYO. BBYO

10:29

is a movement for Jewish teenagers.

10:32

Lee founded his local chapter, enacted

10:35

as president. He spent a lot of his time

10:37

planning activities for the organization.

10:40

His family has said that his religion

10:42

was very important to him.

10:44

People also saw a different side

10:46

of Lee at BBYO where

10:49

he wasn't as reserved and quiet

10:52

as he usually was. Oh, you were

10:54

always the

10:55

local president and a member of

10:58

your own club here where you live. The

11:00

hair club for men. I didn't want to say that. Oh,

11:02

okay. But I knew that's where you were going.

11:05

Yeah. But you know, I want to talk about

11:07

him in this role. It

11:10

sounds like this

11:11

may be brought out

11:14

the best side of him,

11:16

meaning he felt fulfilled,

11:18

you

11:19

know, while he was doing this. And so

11:21

he

11:22

wasn't

11:23

reserved. He was, you know, talking

11:25

with everyone and because he enjoyed it. You

11:28

know, sometimes when you have purpose, yes, it

11:30

really helps drive your life. You know,

11:33

I found that out the hard way. Did you?

11:36

Some of Lee's other hobbies were

11:38

hiking and writing.

11:40

It was said that he loved being outdoors and

11:43

he used writing as an outlet

11:45

to express his feelings. And I know so

11:47

many people do that. Yeah. I think that's why a

11:49

lot of people keep journals and, and

11:52

things like that.

11:53

I've never done that. Really?

11:55

I've never been the type of

11:58

person to write my feelings.

12:02

I probably should. I mean, I wish I, I'm

12:04

not saying that's a bad thing. I actually wish I was

12:07

that type of person. I'm much

12:09

more likely to tell somebody. And

12:12

maybe that's just the difference

12:15

between some people. Some people,

12:17

they don't want to tell others what

12:19

their struggles are, but it's easy

12:21

for them to write them down. And maybe

12:24

that's therapeutic. You

12:26

know, I would always talk with, you

12:28

know, my parents or my friends and now

12:31

my wife, even my kids sometimes,

12:33

I tell them what I'm going through. I mean, as a teenager,

12:36

I wrote a lot of stuff down and I wrote

12:38

songs about what was going through.

12:40

Also, the problem was when I went

12:42

back to read what I wrote, I didn't understand

12:45

one word. Shocking. Yeah,

12:47

I know. Shocking. I was like, what was

12:49

I? Especially, you know, some of that stuff that happened

12:51

in Illinois, that probably didn't make any

12:54

sense. Well, that's true.

12:55

I mean, my cousins tried. Yeah, I'm

12:58

sure you did.

12:59

Beth Phrazen told the Chicago Tribune

13:01

that Lee was going through a lot of stress

13:03

for someone his age. Like many

13:06

teenagers, Lee didn't know what he wanted to do

13:08

after graduation. He wasn't sure

13:10

if he wanted to go to college. He considered

13:12

moving to Israel or studying

13:15

abroad.

13:16

I always wanted to study abroad. Just throwing

13:18

that out there. Okay. Yeah. I

13:20

thought it'd been. I'm surprised you didn't with all the academic

13:23

accomplishments you have. Oxford,

13:28

some of the most prestigious

13:30

academic institutions outside

13:32

of this country, I would have thought it would have

13:35

been clamoring. Well, they were. I

13:37

mean, we did the mail service courses

13:40

with them. Where they sent me all the material

13:42

and the mail and I went ahead and knocked

13:45

it all out, sent it back. And sent it back.

13:47

They sent you a diploma. They did. So,

13:49

you know, I wanted to go back and talk

13:51

about stress

13:53

because this is something that, you know, I've

13:55

dealt with with my children

13:57

as a teenager, there

13:59

can be. quite a bit of stress. You know,

14:01

you don't think about, you think about stress is,

14:04

well, I've got a job, I have

14:06

a family, I've got to put food on the table,

14:08

I've got rent. Well, there's a different type

14:11

of stress for teenagers. Sure. You

14:13

know, social

14:14

stress that I don't have to deal with because

14:16

I don't care. I'm not trying to climb

14:19

any social ladder or be accepted

14:21

at the cool kids table. You never did care.

14:24

I never did care.

14:25

And I certainly don't care now because I'm the only

14:27

one at the table. So it is

14:29

the cool kids table. But, you know,

14:31

my daughters went through a lot of that

14:33

and the youngest still is. And

14:36

now she's got a job, you

14:38

know, she's dancing with her dance

14:40

troupe. So finishing

14:42

up high school, just that's

14:45

stress. A lot of stress. Yeah,

14:48

I read an article not too long ago that was

14:51

on a study and they said, the stress on kids

14:53

today is a lot more

14:55

than the stress when you and I would

14:58

have went to school. I don't remember

15:00

feeling stress. I didn't either. Not

15:02

like some of the kids do today. And

15:04

I get it, you know, with

15:06

the way schools are today, I think

15:08

they're a little more challenging. And

15:10

I also think you add that

15:12

social media aspect into

15:14

the mix. And it's not just a little

15:17

bit, it's a pretty big mix, right? For

15:20

some of those kids, it's almost their entire being.

15:22

Yeah.

15:23

What's going on on TikTok? What's

15:26

up with the gram? Right.

15:29

Can't even say Instagram. Just call it the gram. The gram now?

15:32

Yeah, so you think about the stress and anxiety that

15:34

goes along with all that. Yeah.

15:35

Yeah. Yeah, it's tough. You

15:38

know, we didn't have social media.

15:40

There was nobody

15:42

that was going to cyber bully me.

15:44

No. No. Somebody might pick

15:46

a fight with me, try to fight me. Sure. But

15:49

that was gonna be in real life. That's right. There's nobody that

15:51

could sit behind a keyboard and call me names. Someone

15:53

was gonna write something on your wall.

15:55

They were actually wrote it on your physical wall.

15:57

Yeah. Yeah. So it's...

16:00

It's a different world, no doubt. In

16:02

the months before Lee's disappearance,

16:05

Beth moved in with her mother, who was

16:07

recently diagnosed with cancer. Barry

16:09

Frasen told the Porta Daily Register

16:12

that Lee's friend was also sick

16:14

with cancer.

16:15

It was difficult for Lee to be away from

16:17

his mother, and he asked her to move back in.

16:20

Lee didn't always get along with his stepfather,

16:22

Barry, so there was tension

16:25

in the family. You know, it's gotta be rough for a kid

16:27

to have all the stress

16:30

of school and then also have

16:32

their grandmother go through cancer, a

16:34

friend go through cancer. That's a lot

16:37

to take in. And then I think,

16:39

you know, on top of that, living

16:41

with your stepfather, if you

16:43

don't get along with that person, you

16:45

know, without your mom there as a buffer,

16:48

I could see where that could be very tough.

16:50

Nobody likes to walk on eggshells.

16:52

Penny Clobridge, a close family friend

16:54

and private investigator, told Disappeared

16:57

that Barry wasn't nice to the boys,

17:00

assuming that she was talking

17:02

about

17:03

Lee and his brother.

17:04

She also said he was unfaithful

17:07

and would tell

17:08

Lee about this.

17:09

Lee didn't like being involved in family

17:12

problems because he wanted

17:14

to feel at peace.

17:15

He didn't want the tension. He didn't want

17:18

the fighting and all of that. That's

17:20

what I got. What a strange stepdad

17:23

to tell his stepchild. If

17:25

that's true, yeah, I cheated on your mom.

17:27

And here's the details.

17:29

The night before he went missing, Lee spoke

17:31

with Autumn Rizzio. He didn't say anything,

17:34

you know, out of the ordinary. And he didn't

17:36

talk about wanting to leave town.

17:39

Autumn told the Chicago Tribune, I

17:41

asked him why he's so stressed.

17:43

I had been worried about him. He said he had

17:46

no time for himself anymore,

17:48

that he had been giving his time to everyone

17:51

else. So this goes back directly

17:53

to what we said about Lee.

17:55

He wanted to help everybody else

17:57

out,

17:58

but he didn't. I want to

18:01

bother anyone with his problems.

18:03

Yeah. And I do

18:05

think at some point,

18:07

really at any point, you kind of got to take care of

18:09

yourself first. You do. You

18:12

do. You can't give everything to everybody

18:14

else because you're just hurting yourself.

18:17

Yeah, I struggle with that in my own life sometimes. I really

18:19

do. You are a very giving person.

18:21

Yeah. And

18:23

not financially, not

18:26

when it comes to buying dinners and things like

18:28

that. Yeah, it's going crazy. You're a very thoughtful,

18:30

giving person,

18:32

and that's great. It's a great quality. Yeah,

18:34

yeah. But if you're doing it all

18:37

the time and you're giving all your energy

18:39

to everybody else, what's left

18:41

for you?

18:42

And are you making sure that

18:44

you're kind of mental health

18:47

and you're okay? Yeah,

18:49

because if you wear that down, then you can't do

18:52

anything. Anything, or be there for the people you want to

18:54

be there for because...

18:55

Yeah, so you're not good for yourself, but then

18:57

you can't be good for anybody else too. It's

19:00

kind of like what they tell you on

19:02

the airplane if the oxygen

19:04

masks

19:05

deploy. Yeah. Put yours

19:07

on first and then start

19:10

helping people. But you know me, I'd be

19:12

putting on the people around me first and then put it on myself.

19:14

Right, and then you've passed out and you can't help

19:17

anybody else out because you're not following directions.

19:19

But you have yours on because I'll make sure you got it on, man.

19:21

Knowing me, I'd put mine on and then I'd grab

19:24

yours and put it on over top just

19:26

so I had extra. Extra

19:28

oxygen. Since obviously you don't

19:30

feel like you need it, Gibby. Yes. I'm gonna

19:33

take yours for now. I'm gonna make sure I have extra.

19:35

So I mean, I think if we analyze

19:37

all the information we have so far, what

19:40

it really shows is that

19:42

while Lee did have friends and family

19:44

who cared about him, he was extremely

19:47

stressed about school, his

19:49

future, and the fact that his grandmother

19:52

and friend were sick. He had a lot

19:54

of stressors in his life.

19:56

On the evening of October 19th, 2007, Lee

20:00

went to a childhood friend's 18th birthday

20:02

party at a local restaurant. He

20:04

played hacky sack outside the restaurant

20:07

with his friends.

20:08

It seemed like he was happy and had a good

20:10

time that evening. You seem like you were probably

20:13

a hacky sack guy. I tried it one time.

20:15

Yeah, terrible at it. I didn't know people were

20:17

still doing it in 2007. Yeah,

20:19

I thought that was like a 1990s thing, but maybe it lasted

20:22

longer than I thought. I

20:24

tried it a few times. Did not go well.

20:26

Later that night, Lee went into his

20:28

mother's room and asked if he could spend

20:31

the night at a friend's house. She gave

20:33

him permission to do so and asked

20:35

him to call her that night. And the next day,

20:38

Lee hugged his mother and she later

20:40

noted that the hug felt

20:42

longer than usual. And I wonder

20:45

in her mind, did it feel longer than usual because.

20:48

She later knew what, yeah, what

20:51

was this happened? I don't know, because

20:53

I get the sense. You know,

20:55

if, if I hug my kids,

20:58

which, you know, we hug a lot, they're

21:00

normally pretty quick, you know, but

21:03

when my kids are hurting, I know

21:06

I'm, I get that extra long

21:08

hug. They hang on a little bit longer. Yes. And

21:11

so I can tell the difference.

21:13

So she, she might've just felt

21:15

it differently. I know you don't really

21:18

appreciate when I hang on too long. No, because

21:21

you're way too close. Yeah. You're way too close.

21:23

Lee spent the night with two of his best friends.

21:25

They played video games and eventually

21:28

went to bed, but sources don't

21:30

really say what time around 1230. A.m.

21:33

On October 20th,

21:35

Lee texted a friend who was apt

21:37

to sleep over. He told them he was

21:40

upset because he felt like he was having

21:42

trouble fitting in.

21:43

This friend later said that they weren't

21:46

particularly concerned by this conversation

21:49

because it was normal for lead to worry.

21:51

Lee's friend assured him that everything

21:53

would be fine.

21:54

So that right there is a difference.

21:57

Sure it is. Because when.

22:00

you and I were growing up, you weren't

22:02

texting anybody. You sure weren't

22:04

texting somebody who was at the same sleepover.

22:06

Yeah. As you two chairs

22:08

over from. Yeah.

22:10

And I've seen it firsthand. I've

22:12

seen kids sitting on the same couch.

22:15

Oh yeah. Text each other when they

22:17

could literally

22:18

just turn their head to the side and say whatever

22:21

it is they want to say, but they don't. I've

22:23

been out to dinner and watch couples

22:26

sit across from each other. Texting?

22:28

Yeah. Oh, I don't think are they texting each other

22:30

cause they're not talking. The tech they're talking

22:32

about you. That's why they're texting. Well, that's probably

22:34

true. Like can't believe how he's eating that right

22:37

now.

22:38

Beth didn't hear from Lee that night. So

22:40

she called and left him a message. She

22:43

wasn't too concerned because it was

22:45

normal for him to sometimes forget to call

22:47

her. She called again in the morning,

22:50

but didn't hear back

22:51

from Lee. According to the Chicago

22:53

Tribune

22:54

at 9.50 AM, Lee

22:56

took a friend home and said he was going

22:58

to work at rock America, a

23:01

clothing store at the Hawthorne

23:03

center mall in Vernon Hills.

23:05

The friend who was with Lee that morning said he

23:08

recently broke up with his girlfriend and

23:10

described him as quiet during the ride.

23:13

This same friend also reported that

23:15

Lee was quiet the night before.

23:18

Now I don't know what to make of that because I think a lot of people

23:20

said he was quiet. He was reserved,

23:22

but he's saying maybe a little bit more than

23:25

normal. Okay.

23:26

Well, I mean, you'd have a breakup, you know, it's not

23:29

abnormal to be more reserved.

23:32

But Lee never showed up for his 12 o'clock

23:34

shift. Beth was becoming increasingly

23:37

concerned as more time passed

23:39

without hearing from Lee. He wasn't

23:41

answering any of her calls or texts

23:44

in the afternoon. She drove to the mall and

23:47

learned that Lee didn't come to work.

23:49

Lee's boss said that he might've thought

23:51

he was supposed to come in at five,

23:53

not 12. Beth said she

23:55

would call back at five to check in when

23:58

she called later that afternoon.

23:59

She learned that Lee hadn't come in

24:02

or contact his boss to let her know

24:05

he couldn't come to work. So, you

24:07

know, again, we get to this

24:09

point in every unsolved

24:11

episode. Yeah. You

24:13

know, what is the point in time where

24:15

a parent or someone

24:18

becomes not just concerned,

24:21

but alarmed, panicked.

24:24

And I think this is it. Yeah. I think

24:26

I would have left that mall very alarmed.

24:29

And I think Beth did, she started

24:31

calling friends, but none of them

24:33

knew where Lee was or

24:36

had heard from him since the morning.

24:38

Lee was supposed to attend a bowling

24:40

event

24:41

with BBYO around 8 PM.

24:44

His family went to the bowling alley and waited

24:46

for him, but he never showed up.

24:48

And I think two things

24:51

here are crucial. Number one's

24:53

the job. Most people don't

24:55

miss their job. Uh, their shift

24:57

without at least calling in, but

25:00

probably even more importantly was this

25:02

BBYO event. His baby,

25:05

right? This was his chapter. Yeah.

25:07

How important this was

25:09

to him.

25:10

They knew that he would never

25:12

miss an event. And

25:14

this was the point in time when

25:17

his family decided to go to the police.

25:19

Beth Frasen called the police at 9 40 PM.

25:23

The police interviewed bath and learned that

25:25

Lee had a history of mental health issues

25:28

as well as other stressors in

25:30

his life. The police searched Lee's

25:32

bedroom, but

25:33

didn't find anything out of place, which

25:36

to them suggested that he

25:38

left on his own.

25:39

No foul play. No foul play. I think is what

25:41

they were saying. Lee's friends reported

25:44

that he sometimes liked to go out for

25:46

a drive. So police thought that

25:48

he might've gone out, just hadn't told

25:51

anyone.

25:52

Family friend, Penny Colbridge reported

25:54

that Lee sometimes left for the night, but

25:56

he always called his mother or

25:58

came home. I know somebody loves

26:01

doing that, right? It's their

26:03

stress relief. They got to get in their car

26:05

and drive. They drive, turn their music up

26:08

and their drive,

26:09

you know, for an hour. Well, you know,

26:12

I don't do that now at my age, but

26:14

when I was 17, 18 years old, that

26:17

was a getaway, you

26:18

know, and 18 is kind of that really

26:20

strange age.

26:22

You're technically an adult, right? But

26:24

a lot of people are still living with mom and dad.

26:26

So you've got those rules. That's true. And

26:29

so maybe, yeah, getting out, you

26:31

know, in the car, just getting away, being

26:34

in your own space and you're, you know,

26:36

in control of everything. Yeah. It

26:39

is a good thing.

26:40

By 11 PM, Lee's friends

26:42

decided to drive around to some

26:44

of his favorite hangout spots and look for him.

26:47

Lee liked to go to the Belvedere

26:49

Oasis, a commercial rest

26:52

area

26:53

to talk to truck drivers. He

26:55

also liked to go to a specific parking

26:57

garage to be alone with his thoughts.

26:59

Okay. Again, we've talked

27:02

about in many unsolved cases, friends,

27:05

family, kind of driving around to a

27:07

person's favorite haunts, right?

27:09

Just to see if they might be there. Never

27:12

once, I don't believe have we ever

27:14

said

27:15

that a person's favorite spot

27:18

is a commercial rest area

27:21

where they like to talk to truck drivers.

27:23

Yeah. It's a, it's something different, but

27:26

I'll tell you what though, some of these truckers

27:28

have amazing stories. I was going to say, you're probably going

27:31

to hear some, some really, um,

27:33

really good stories.

27:35

Lee's friends went to a local Speedway

27:37

where an attendant told them that they

27:40

saw Lee

27:41

around 10 PM that evening. Penny

27:43

Clobridge asked for their security footage,

27:46

but they told her they couldn't access it

27:48

without a manager present.

27:50

But if you don't know what a Speedway is, it's the same

27:52

thing as a 7-11, a

27:55

stop and go, or I don't know what else. It's

27:58

a gas station. I don't know.

27:59

Why are you saying all these other things? Yeah. It's

28:02

a gas station. I don't know if they have them everywhere,

28:05

but where we live, they are everywhere.

28:08

You can't hit an intersection without

28:11

a pass on a speedway. Exactly.

28:13

The next day, investigators learned that the

28:15

footage had been erased.

28:17

It was confirmed that an employee did see

28:19

Lee, but they actually saw him around 10 a.m.,

28:22

not 10 p.m. This meant

28:25

that Lee dropped his friend off, went

28:27

to the speedway,

28:28

and then was unaccounted for

28:30

the rest of the day. It's not uncommon for

28:32

the video feed to be erased though,

28:34

right? Well, I'm assuming you're asking

28:37

me because I used to run a bunch

28:39

of gas stations.

28:40

The problem that I have is the

28:43

time here.

28:44

What are we, 2007? Yeah. My

28:47

thought is by then, they probably

28:49

would have been digital

28:51

because when I did it, it was the 1990s. We

28:54

were still using VHS tapes.

28:56

We basically had one VHS tape

28:59

for every day. Oh, okay. And

29:02

so the recording somehow

29:05

compressed a whole 24 hours onto one VHS tape.

29:09

But to me, it would be very

29:12

strange to record over,

29:15

and it doesn't even say record over, it just says erased.

29:18

Right. That's very odd. It is

29:20

odd, I thought, but. To me. Because even

29:22

in 1990s, when I was doing it, we

29:26

would have had at least a week's

29:28

worth. Now, if the police came

29:31

two weeks later. Out of luck. Out

29:33

of luck

29:34

with the way that we did it. Now, I

29:36

don't know what they have today, but

29:39

with everything being digital and

29:42

storage being what it is, I

29:44

would assume they probably keep

29:46

it for quite some time. Probably on

29:49

the cloud. I don't know how, yeah.

29:51

Whatever the cloud is. Yeah. Your

29:53

surveillance equipment here is pretty high tech. It

29:55

is. And that's just the stuff you know about.

29:57

That's true. The stuff you don't.

29:59

know about is even

30:01

more high tech. Yeah. I

30:03

noticed that that one time I was in your bathroom

30:05

and took those extra rolls of toilet paper, somehow you

30:07

knew about it and I don't know how.

30:10

And I do think that Lee's case

30:12

was somewhat unique.

30:14

It's come out before. Typically

30:16

the police don't always start

30:19

searching for adults right away. Lee

30:21

was 18, but he had just turned 18

30:24

two and a half weeks before he went missing.

30:27

But because of his history

30:29

of mental illness, Lee met the criteria

30:32

for an endangered missing child

30:35

over the age of 18,

30:37

something I've, I've never heard of before, a

30:39

teletype message to all police departments

30:42

in the area was sent out so that

30:44

they could help look for Lee

30:46

during another search of Lee's room. His

30:48

family found a mug he used

30:50

to store money was missing. This

30:53

mug was believed to have held anywhere

30:55

from five to $800.

30:58

And I think

31:00

this was another indication

31:02

that people felt,

31:04

including the authorities,

31:06

that, you know, Lee left voluntarily.

31:09

Yeah. They took his, uh, five

31:11

next day, next day with him and went

31:14

off. Now, if that's true

31:16

or not, we don't know. And if it is true, for

31:19

what reason? And that's, you know, things

31:21

that we'll be exploring.

31:23

The police looked at Lee's phone records.

31:26

They saw that he last used his phone

31:28

around 12 30 AM on October 20th, when he

31:32

texted his friend

31:33

and that the phone had died or been

31:35

powered off because it

31:37

wasn't pinging off any cell

31:40

tower

31:40

around three 30 AM on

31:43

October 22nd, 2007. A

31:46

sheriff's deputy in Sauk County, Wisconsin

31:49

saw an abandoned 2007 Toyota Corolla

31:53

parked at a wayside off highway 33 near the

31:55

city of Baraboo. This

31:58

is almost 200 miles from Lee's.

31:59

home.

32:00

The deputy checked the cars registration

32:03

and saw that the vehicle belonged to Lee

32:05

Cutler, a missing person in Illinois.

32:08

The deputy contacted the Buffalo Grove

32:10

PD.

32:11

So, you know, we said that

32:14

he liked to go out for a drive. Yeah.

32:17

Whether that was to clear his head, to

32:19

be alone, whatever it was,

32:22

I'm assuming a

32:23

normal drive was not 400 miles

32:26

round trip. Right. Yeah.

32:29

That's a long, long trip. Yeah. That's

32:31

not a clear your head type of drive.

32:34

That's almost three hours in one direction. That's

32:37

a long trip.

32:38

Investigators checked out the car and saw

32:40

no signs of a struggle or

32:43

foul play. The car was parked

32:45

properly and locked.

32:47

The deputy stayed in the area and watched

32:49

the car in case someone returned, but

32:51

no one ever did. Lee's parents

32:53

drove to Baraboo to search

32:55

for him. So, you know, I think this

32:58

is important too, right? They found the car

33:00

and, you know, this is not like a scene

33:03

from that movie road trip

33:05

where they try to jump that and the car

33:08

essentially almost falls apart.

33:10

Right. This is not this situation.

33:13

Not at all. You know, it means

33:15

something. Yeah. When the

33:17

car is not parked haphazardly,

33:21

it's not, you know, unlocked.

33:23

There's not stuff left on the seat.

33:26

It doesn't appear as though someone had to get out

33:28

real quick and make a getaway.

33:30

Yeah. It seems like it was parked where it was

33:32

on purpose. Yeah. Deliberately. Deliberately.

33:35

And then locked up and then somebody walked

33:37

away.

33:38

That same day, authority started

33:40

an air and ground search in the area

33:42

between Baraboo and Portage, Wisconsin.

33:45

Officers on the ground

33:47

found a makeshift campsite about 75

33:50

to a hundred yards away from Lee's car

33:53

near the banks of the Baraboo river

33:55

at this campsite. They found a backpack

33:58

and some blankets Lee's. family

34:00

confirmed that the items belonged

34:02

to him. So, I mean,

34:04

it doesn't seem that hard to figure out.

34:07

He drove there. Sure. He parked.

34:10

He walked down by the river and made

34:12

camp, made camp.

34:14

But then what happened? Right?

34:16

That's the question. Sure. We've gotten

34:18

this far. It doesn't

34:20

seem as though, you know, he was

34:23

under duress up to this

34:25

point, but obviously something

34:27

happened. And where is he? Oh, yeah.

34:30

And that's the overriding big question.

34:32

On the morning of October 23rd, Lee's

34:35

mother appeared on local TV to

34:37

ask her son to come home. The Baraboo

34:39

news Republic quoted her as saying,

34:42

I love you, Lee. I want you to

34:44

be home. I have a void in my

34:46

heart. This is just killing

34:48

me.

34:48

She also said that she wanted

34:51

other teenagers to know how leaving

34:53

home can affect their families. I want

34:55

the kids to know how horrible this is.

34:58

If you don't think you're loved, you're

35:00

loved. Yeah, she's hurting. Obviously.

35:02

Yeah, she's hurting. And, and,

35:05

but the other thing that this makes

35:07

me think about is, you know, a

35:09

kid like Lee

35:11

who seemed from the reporting

35:13

to have a good relationship with his

35:15

mother. You just don't think

35:17

that he would just go off and

35:19

leave and not contact

35:22

her at all. Make her worry.

35:25

Right. Um, I always think

35:27

about that. I mean, we said how he was the

35:29

type of person that would do

35:31

anything for anybody, always wanted

35:34

to take care of others. So you think

35:36

that that would be part of

35:38

his process with his mom. Yeah.

35:40

Yeah. So when we talk about, you know,

35:43

people leaving voluntarily,

35:45

getting away, getting off the grid,

35:47

whatever you want to call it, you know, one of the

35:49

things that always enters my mind is

35:52

if you have a situation like this,

35:54

what would be the harm in calling your mom

35:57

and saying,

35:58

mom, I just can't deal with it.

35:59

I'm leaving, but

36:02

I'm okay.

36:03

Don't try to find me. I'm starting

36:05

a new line. You know, how does that

36:07

hurt you in any way to do

36:10

that?

36:10

And then your mom's not going

36:12

to be hurting quite as bad. She's

36:15

still gonna be hurting because you're leaving. And

36:17

I think that's part of the reason why for

36:20

the most part, I tend to kind

36:22

of lean away from

36:24

the left voluntarily type

36:27

of aspect. That

36:30

plus the fact of how hard

36:32

I think it would be to live off the grid in 2007

36:34

and now in 2023. Very

36:40

difficult.

36:41

The Sauk County Sheriff's Department dive

36:43

and rescue team started searching

36:45

the river the same day. On

36:47

October 24th,

36:49

the police announced that some

36:51

of Lee's clothing was found near the

36:53

banks of the river near the location

36:55

where his backpack was found. Lee's

36:58

Yarmulke, a very important item

37:00

to him was also found on

37:03

the riverbank. All right, so

37:05

we have more information. We do. We

37:07

can theorize a little

37:10

bit more.

37:11

He gets near the river.

37:12

He makes camp. He decides to

37:14

go for a swim, possibly, takes

37:17

off his clothing, gets

37:19

in, something happens. An accident

37:22

hits his head, whatever it is. That's

37:24

a possible theory now. That

37:27

is. Based on the evidence.

37:29

But what concerned authorities the most

37:32

were letters written to and from family

37:34

members and an empty

37:36

bottle of sleep medication.

37:39

Inside Lee's backpack, they found

37:41

notebooks and notes from

37:43

Lee's ex-girlfriend. So clearly

37:46

in his backpack on his possession, he had

37:48

important things to him. He had important

37:50

things to him. Probably what jumped

37:53

out the most, I would

37:55

think to authorities, was this empty bottle

37:58

of sleep medication. Yeah. Because

38:00

now you're, you're leading

38:03

down the territory of

38:05

possible self-harm.

38:08

You're near this body of water.

38:11

You got to factor that in

38:13

and the letters

38:15

and the notes to and from

38:17

next girlfriend, you're going to combine

38:20

them and say, okay, he's heartbroken.

38:23

He took all these pills. Now

38:25

what? Now what? Yeah.

38:27

According to a grunge article, they also

38:29

found a note written to Beth that said,

38:32

my head is too big for my body. Finally,

38:35

I will get to sleep.

38:36

I'm sorry for being a coward. I

38:39

love you mom.

38:40

Please be happy. Boy,

38:42

if that's true, does it mean anything

38:44

though? Does it mean that

38:47

that note was for that

38:49

moment? Or was it something that he

38:51

wrote

38:52

at one point when he was.

38:54

Contemplating and hurting himself.

38:56

Yeah. I don't know if there's

38:58

a way for anyone

39:01

to know exactly when it was written, but

39:03

I think

39:04

if you

39:06

say it was written, you

39:08

know,

39:09

recently, maybe even at the campsite,

39:12

you would have to think that

39:15

it has something to do with the sleep medication

39:18

and you would have to look at it as

39:21

a type of suicide

39:23

note.

39:24

And I think some individuals do

39:26

believe that's what it was.

39:28

And I can see why, you know, people would

39:30

draw that conclusion, you know, given the

39:32

context and all the

39:35

things that we've talked about

39:36

and the authorities thought that too,

39:38

right? They believe that this note sounded

39:41

like a suicide note, but Lee's family

39:43

disagreed,

39:44

as we mentioned previously, Lee

39:46

used writing as a way to express himself,

39:50

Autumn Rizzio told disappeared. He

39:52

always wrote so that he would understand

39:54

it and other people won't. That

39:57

was his style of writing. You

39:58

know, there's a lot. to be said about my writing

40:01

style as well. That really

40:03

I'm the only one that can figure out what I'm writing.

40:05

Right, but that's not on purpose.

40:08

You're not doing that purposefully. No.

40:10

That's just the way you write. It's just

40:13

bad grammar. Bad grammar.

40:17

Authorities noted that Lee's car was

40:19

very low on gas, even though he

40:21

passed several gas stations on the way

40:23

to Baraboo, which further led

40:25

them to believe

40:27

Lee didn't intend on driving past

40:29

the highway 33 stop.

40:31

There was also no evidence of foul play

40:33

to indicate he was attacked or forced

40:35

into the woods. And you know, this is

40:37

a point that we do make

40:39

in some cases, or at least we bring up.

40:42

Now, sometimes it's why would somebody,

40:45

you know,

40:46

buy a whole refrigerator full of groceries

40:49

if they knew they were going to do something or harm

40:52

themselves or just, you know, take

40:54

off and leave. I

40:55

think what they're looking at here is

40:58

possibly

41:00

saying lead knew that he didn't need

41:02

gas

41:03

because he wasn't,

41:04

he wasn't

41:06

intending on driving

41:08

any further than, than he

41:10

ultimately did. Now, is that true

41:12

or not? I don't know. Yeah. I

41:14

mean, I've passed many

41:17

gas stations thinking, Oh, I got plenty.

41:19

You know,

41:20

I got plenty or there'll be one, another

41:22

one up ahead. And then all of a sudden

41:24

there's not now. He didn't run out of gas.

41:27

So we're not in that situation, but it

41:29

was just said he was low on gas. And

41:32

we've both been there where we've coasted in. Yeah. Yep.

41:35

Sometimes when we try to Cramer it and it doesn't

41:38

work out.

41:39

Additionally, an empty bottle of Advil

41:41

PM and

41:43

Corocedin,

41:44

a cold medication were found near

41:46

Lee's campsite. There was only one

41:49

Advil tablet lying on the ground

41:51

near the bottle.

41:52

Lee's family reported that he had taken

41:55

Advil PM for years because he had

41:57

trouble sleeping.

41:58

The police were worried because

41:59

Because combining cold medication

42:02

with Advil PM can be very

42:04

dangerous. It could be. It says it on the

42:07

label. I mean... But

42:08

who reads those labels? I know I don't.

42:11

Besides the one time I did.

42:12

On the 24th, the cadaver dog

42:15

came to the area to search the river. But

42:17

the authority said the dog was only being used

42:20

to help eliminate the possibility

42:22

of Lee's body being in the river.

42:25

A search of Lee's car revealed some

42:27

valuable information.

42:29

Clothing was found inside the car,

42:32

as well as a school-assigned copy

42:34

of the book, Into the Wild.

42:37

The police found a receipt from the Kettle-Marain

42:40

State Park printed at 1.41 pm on October

42:42

20th.

42:44

Private investigator Penny Clobridge called

42:47

the state park and learned that

42:49

Wisconsin residents could get into

42:51

the park for $7. The

42:53

regular admission price was $10.

42:56

Lee's receipt showed that he paid $7, which

43:00

led some people to speculate

43:03

that he was traveling with

43:05

someone who was local. Yeah,

43:07

it could have. Or maybe the

43:09

person that was working the booth said,

43:12

you look like a high school kid, I'll give

43:14

you the discount. Or maybe he just asked

43:16

him if he was a resident. And he said, yeah. And

43:18

he didn't have to show proof. Right.

43:21

Again, the problem

43:23

that we have with so many cases

43:25

like this is you have

43:28

this piece of information,

43:29

but what does it conclusively

43:32

mean? And sometimes you just don't

43:34

know. It's only as good as the person

43:36

that handed the receipt, did

43:38

they stick hardcore to their job and say,

43:41

sorry, you got to pay the higher

43:43

fee. I know. Or you have

43:45

to show ID or whatever.

43:46

Lee's also found a receipt for both

43:49

medicines that showed it

43:51

was purchased at a Walmart in

43:53

Madison, Wisconsin.

43:55

Detectives watched surveillance

43:57

footage from this Walmart. Lee was

43:59

seen on

43:59

on camera on October 20th,

44:02

four hours after he left Buffalo

44:04

Grove, he was seen walking in

44:06

and out of the store wearing clothing

44:09

that matched his last known description.

44:11

He was alone in the footage, which

44:14

I think to some maybe has

44:16

discredited the theory that he was

44:18

traveling, you know, with someone else,

44:21

according to the bearer of Boone news Republic,

44:24

the state park has two units.

44:27

One is near Whitewater, which is

44:29

directly between Buffalo Grove

44:31

and Baraboo. One is North of

44:34

Cedarburg, a city north of Milwaukee.

44:37

Barry

44:37

Fraser told the paper that Lee

44:39

had an ex-girlfriend from Cedarburg,

44:42

but

44:42

he had no friends or family

44:44

living in Baraboo.

44:46

Lee had been to the Baraboo area with

44:48

friends before, but his family wasn't sure why

44:50

he would want to go there a second time.

44:53

It's not really a ringing endorsement of Baraboo.

44:56

I'm sure that's not what they put on their, uh, their

44:59

visitor sign. Not sure why anybody

45:01

would want to come here a second time. Not

45:03

sure why you want to come here a second time, but come on

45:06

back anyway. Cause Baraboo's where it's

45:08

at.

45:08

I don't know why I used my Southern accent when I did

45:10

that either. I don't either. But I

45:13

was thinking about when he was in the Walmart

45:15

and they said that he bought, they

45:16

had receipts for his medicine. So,

45:19

you know, when they said they found the bottle and he

45:21

had one pill, I thought, well, that could, that

45:24

could be anything, right? I mean, he could have brought it from

45:26

home. I only had two or three.

45:28

Yeah. But now that we know that he actually

45:31

bought it on the 20th and there was

45:33

only one left, what does that mean?

45:35

That means a bunch of them went somewhere.

45:37

Yeah.

45:38

We just don't know where we don't know where, but again,

45:40

it's those things. Right.

45:43

You can speculate.

45:44

And I think you

45:46

would be speculating from a really

45:48

good position. Yeah. I think you could based

45:51

on the fact that it was a full bottle. And I don't

45:53

know how many pills were in the bottle, but I'm

45:55

sure there were quite a few now

45:57

there's only one left.

45:59

Detectives established a timeline

46:02

of Lee's movements on October 20th

46:05

based on the evidence from the car. At 10

46:07

a.m.,

46:08

Lee was seen at the Speedway in

46:10

Buffalo Grove. Three hours later,

46:12

he stopped at the Walmart in Madison.

46:15

Just 23 minutes later, he arrived

46:17

at the state park. Then he drove 100

46:20

miles to Baraboo.

46:22

On Friday, October 26th, divers

46:25

found a pair of khaki pants clinging

46:28

to a branch in the river 300

46:30

yards downstream from where

46:33

Lee's backpack and blankets were.

46:36

Investigators also found Lee's wallet, ID,

46:39

some cash, and his car keys. So

46:41

they're finding a lot of Lee's stuff, but

46:44

they're not finding the most important

46:46

Lee. Yeah, but this

46:49

pair of khaki pants clinging

46:52

to a branch. Now I don't know if the

46:54

branch was hanging down over the water.

46:57

Like, you know, the pants would have floated down

47:00

and got caught. Or

47:03

if they were kind of more up on the

47:05

bank and somebody, you know, would have taken off

47:07

the pants and put them on there.

47:09

One scenario is a

47:11

much worse sign, I think.

47:13

But again, I don't know.

47:16

By October 30th, the ground air

47:18

and dive team searches had ended, but the

47:21

sheriff's department said they would continue

47:23

to patrol the river for clues about

47:25

Lee's disappearance. Though the

47:28

evidence suggested that Lee decided

47:30

to take his life, there

47:32

was no way to confirm this without finding

47:34

his body. Daniel deGrazia,

47:37

a family friend, told the Baraboo

47:39

News Republic that Lee's

47:41

notes did not specifically mention

47:43

suicide. He didn't rule out

47:46

a scenario where Lee went to the river

47:48

intending to end his own life,

47:51

but decided not to.

47:52

The sheriff told deGrazia that

47:55

he could not recall a case where

47:57

the authorities knew someone was in the

47:59

river. river

48:00

and couldn't find their body.

48:02

The Baraboo river is full of obstacles

48:04

like large trees and branches, which

48:07

would make it difficult for a body

48:09

or other large object to

48:12

float downstream without getting caught.

48:14

Captain Kevin Fultz told the Chicago

48:17

Tribune, nothing could pass

48:19

through it unless maybe a fish.

48:22

So that's saying if he did

48:24

go in the water, we should be able to find him. Yes.

48:27

And I think this description of the

48:29

river, is vital

48:32

because without it, you

48:33

know, you kind of think of a river as being

48:36

more open. Sure. Yeah. There's things

48:39

that you could catch on, but

48:41

this makes it sound like it's a jungle down

48:44

there

48:44

with large objects,

48:47

branches, um, just

48:49

no way that this body, if

48:52

there was a body could float downstream.

48:55

Divers search the stretch of the river

48:57

where Lee's belongings were found. They

48:59

also searched three miles beyond some

49:02

fallen trees that were obstructing

49:04

the river.

49:05

They found nothing.

49:06

This led to two more theories about

49:08

what might have happened to Lee.

49:10

Obviously the first theory

49:12

being that he ended his life.

49:14

Sure. Thereby the river.

49:16

One theory is that Lee left his home

49:19

to start a new life.

49:20

Two interstates I 90 and I 94 are about

49:23

seven to 10 miles from highway 33 where

49:26

Lee's car was found. It's

49:29

possible that Lee got a ride with a truck driver, which

49:33

would allow him to get far away relatively

49:35

quickly. It

49:37

was said that hitchhiking is pretty

49:39

common in the Baraboo area, according

49:41

to a local police officer and is mentioned previously,

49:44

Lee liked talking to truckers.

49:47

Yeah. Maybe he befriended one or

49:49

two or how many and said, Hey, I'd like to just start my life over.

49:52

And maybe one of them said, you know,

49:54

what we want to go. I'll take you there.

49:56

And I'll meet you here at this. designated

50:01

time. So if that were the case,

50:04

then what does the

50:07

makeshift campsite mean? Does that

50:09

mean he was hanging out there

50:11

until the designated time?

50:14

Or was that to throw

50:17

off everyone? Right?

50:20

I bought the pills. I emptied

50:22

them out to make it look as

50:24

though I took them all. Right.

50:26

People are going to think that, you know,

50:28

I took my life.

50:30

But really I hopped in a truck and I'm,

50:32

you know, on the other side of the country.

50:34

Lee's favorite books were Into the

50:37

Wild and Catcher in the Rye.

50:39

Both books feature themes about young

50:41

men who struggle to fit in. Into

50:44

the Wild is a story about a young man who

50:46

travels to the Alaska wilderness and

50:48

tragically dies. Lee loved hiking

50:51

and being out in nature. So

50:53

I mean, I think a lot of people

50:55

have wondered whether it

50:57

could have been possible that he felt

50:59

inspired to try to have his

51:02

own kind of survivalist adventure

51:04

in the woods. And he chose Baraboo

51:07

because he had been to the area before.

51:10

Very good, uh, movie Into

51:12

the Wild. Yeah. Good

51:14

book too. Yeah. I wouldn't know. No,

51:16

I know you don't read books, but you do watch the movies.

51:19

It's, uh, it's interesting how much Catcher

51:21

in the Rye comes up

51:23

in, in true crime cases.

51:25

It comes up so many times. Now it

51:27

is a very popular book.

51:30

And then, you know, when you think about the theme

51:32

of both of these books, right? Young

51:34

men who are struggling to

51:37

fit in. Okay. You could

51:39

make that argument about a lot of

51:41

serial killers and maybe, or

51:43

killers. And, and maybe that's why

51:45

they're

51:46

so often found,

51:48

um, in possession of Catcher

51:50

in the Rye. Which concerns me because

51:53

as I sit here and I overlook

51:55

your bookcase, there's seven

51:57

copies of Catcher in the Rye. Not one.

52:00

Not two, but seven. Yes.

52:03

And I find that very strange. And they

52:05

all look like they've been leafed through. There

52:07

was eight. Oh, okay. But you don't

52:09

know

52:10

why that one's gone. I don't know.

52:12

But you know, this is a theory, again, theories

52:16

are what they are. You know,

52:19

people have a lot of theories.

52:21

Now I think you could put, you

52:24

know, a couple of these together. This

52:27

survivalist adventure theory

52:30

wouldn't have necessarily had

52:32

to have anything to do with Baraboo.

52:35

He still could have met one

52:37

of his trucker friends there. Could've

52:40

gone somewhere else to have this survivalist

52:43

adventure and live off the land

52:45

and off the grid and all of that.

52:47

My problem with those is

52:50

always that you

52:51

don't surface ever.

52:54

And then, you know, for me,

52:56

it's been what, 16 years. So

52:59

I feel as though he

53:01

would've called his mom or he would've

53:03

contacted someone. At some point,

53:05

right? At some point. I get it. You want

53:07

to go off. You want to be by yourself. I

53:10

think it's just why I tend to dismiss

53:13

those. I can't completely rule them out,

53:16

but I don't lean into

53:18

them heavily because that

53:20

just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

53:23

Another theory is that Lee moved

53:25

to Israel.

53:26

Lee first expressed his interest in moving

53:29

after he attended a cousin's wedding in

53:32

Jerusalem in 2005. He

53:34

specifically wanted to join the

53:36

Israeli Defense Forces. According

53:39

to Penny Clobridge, Lee asked her

53:41

if she would talk to his mother on his behalf

53:43

because he wanted to join the IDF

53:46

when he graduated high school. Beth

53:49

was afraid that Lee would be involved in

53:51

combat if he joined the IDF. Lee

53:53

had told her that he wanted to join and she

53:56

couldn't stop him because he was an

53:58

adult.

53:58

She agreed they could.

53:59

research it together and they requested

54:02

some information.

54:03

Beth never received anything in the mail, but

54:06

she did note that Lee checked the mail every

54:08

day before she got home from work.

54:10

So this has led many

54:13

to the question, is

54:15

it possible that Lee picked up a brochure

54:18

or other information and hid it from

54:20

his mom?

54:22

It's possible. It's possible. But

54:24

here's the, you know, again, we're

54:26

poking holes in, in theories. The

54:29

problem I have with this one is there

54:31

would have to be some type of

54:33

record you would think of

54:36

him leaving the country. And probably

54:38

some type of record with him belonging

54:40

to the IDF. Yeah.

54:43

It seems like that would be easy to check

54:45

out.

54:45

And

54:47

there were no records of Lee boarding

54:49

a flight or leaving the country. So

54:52

it just makes this one seem pretty

54:54

unlikely.

54:55

Him moving to Israel. Yeah, you're

54:57

right. And I think at this point, if he

54:59

did do that after going

55:01

through training and being this military

55:04

person that he would reach out to his mom. I

55:06

was going to say, why not reach out? He

55:08

would have, you know, I found a different maturity level

55:10

at that point and said, Hey,

55:12

guess why? Yeah. Guess where I'm at. You

55:15

know, again, a good kid

55:17

by all accounts is going to

55:20

make his mother and

55:22

friends and stuff worry about him

55:25

for what? 16 years

55:27

now. It just doesn't seem to

55:30

fit. I don't think he would want to torture

55:32

his mom like that. No, I don't either.

55:35

The next best leads are reported

55:37

sightings in different parts of the country. Penny

55:40

Clowbridge, director of investigations

55:43

with ETS investigative services

55:45

in Wilmette, Illinois, told

55:47

the Baraboo news Republic in November,

55:50

2007 that she was still

55:52

awaiting further information from the police,

55:54

but she was informed that they

55:56

had two tips from people who

55:59

think they saw a Lee while driving

56:01

on highway 33,

56:03

one person reported seeing a light brown

56:05

Pontiac Bonneville

56:07

parked with Lee's Corolla. That

56:09

person also said Lee might've been

56:11

talking on a cell phone.

56:14

Okay.

56:14

It's a lead. It is, but

56:16

you know, this is something else

56:18

we see in so many unsolved cases, right?

56:20

Sightings from all over the country.

56:22

It becomes known at some point

56:25

that all of them can't be cracked, right?

56:27

Because they're in different areas

56:29

of the country at the same time. You

56:31

know, how do police

56:34

verify and is there a way

56:36

to do it? You think you saw

56:39

this person,

56:40

but how do you verify that it was actually him?

56:42

Right

56:43

now, if this one is true,

56:46

then you, you have to start

56:48

to think about, okay, who was in this Pontiac

56:50

Bonneville? What were their intentions?

56:53

Or did they pull some type of, Hey,

56:56

help. Can you, can you give me a hand? Can

56:58

you give me a jump knowing

57:01

what we know about Lee? He would have wanted

57:03

to help. Right. And then maybe something,

57:06

they took advantage. Something bad happened. Or

57:08

maybe

57:09

that person was intentionally there.

57:11

Maybe it wasn't a trucker. Yeah. Or maybe

57:14

it was a trucker. He just didn't have his truck. There

57:16

you go. Maybe it was just somebody Pontiac

57:18

Bonneville that whisked him away somewhere else.

57:21

But again, I'm not high on that theory.

57:23

In February, 2008, commander

57:25

Steve Husek of the Buffalo Grove

57:28

PD announced that the investigation

57:30

became inactive. When it appeared, no

57:33

crime was committed.

57:34

Lee was added to a national database

57:36

for missing and exploited children, which

57:39

also includes adults

57:41

between the ages of 18 and 21, as well as the FBI national

57:46

database for missing persons. Lee's

57:48

case was featured on the show disappeared

57:51

in February, 2010. After

57:53

the episode first aired, the NCMEC

57:57

and America's most wanted hotlines received

57:59

about.

57:59

10 tips.

58:01

According to Buffalo Grove investigator

58:03

Tara Romanow, one tip reported

58:06

a young man

58:07

matching Lee's description

58:09

at a Texas gas station. There

58:11

were also reported sightings in Wisconsin

58:14

and Alaska

58:15

but there were no solid leads.

58:17

Another sighting occurred in Nevada where

58:20

painters reported a young man matching

58:22

Lee's description

58:23

watched them work. Penny Clowbridge

58:26

found a local shelter in this area and

58:28

gave their information to Beth but

58:30

there really have been no updates

58:34

after this and you

58:36

are going to get tips right

58:38

when a case is

58:41

profiled on a

58:43

show whether it's disappeared America's

58:45

Most Wanted you know any of these types

58:48

of shows but again how

58:50

do you validate them?

58:51

I will say the one tip in Alaska

58:54

is a little interesting

58:56

because it plays into the

58:58

into the wild book.

59:00

That's true.

59:01

You know if he was so into this book

59:04

and he was gonna go somewhere

59:06

to kind of live a survivalist

59:09

lifestyle

59:10

what better place than Alaska?

59:12

It's the ultimate survival. To get away.

59:15

Yeah.

59:15

Lee Cutler would be in his 30s today.

59:18

Lee is a white male six foot

59:20

tall with light brown hair brown eyes

59:23

and a small bump on his upper lip.

59:26

The police are not sure

59:28

what happened to Lee Cutler after he

59:30

parked his car off highway 33

59:32

because his body was never found.

59:35

They cannot say with certainty that

59:37

Lee took his own life. They can't

59:39

say with certainty that

59:41

he's not alive. That's true.

59:43

If you have any information about Lee

59:45

Cutler's whereabouts you can contact

59:47

the Buffalo Grove Police Department at

59:50

847-459-2560. So you know

59:54

Gibbs as we wrap

59:57

this one up there is a lot going

1:00:00

on here and at the same time

1:00:02

there's very little

1:00:04

of substance. If that

1:00:06

makes sense. It does make sense. You

1:00:09

can talk theories and

1:00:11

what ifs about

1:00:13

a lot of different things and you can take them

1:00:16

in a lot of different directions. But

1:00:18

when it comes to

1:00:20

really anything in the way of

1:00:23

solid evidence or solid

1:00:25

leads, there's just so very little

1:00:28

other than they know he was

1:00:30

at a gas station at 10 in

1:00:32

the morning. They know he was at Walmart

1:00:35

and then they know he was at this campsite

1:00:39

right by the river in Baraboo. Other

1:00:41

than that, what do they know? They don't and I think

1:00:43

you have to be careful jumping

1:00:45

to a conclusion. I think so as well.

1:00:49

Now I do believe that

1:00:52

probably most people

1:00:54

think that he went to this spot

1:00:56

and

1:00:57

he ended his life. Yeah.

1:00:59

Based on the two medications,

1:01:02

the fact that there was only one of the

1:01:04

Advil PMs left,

1:01:06

it's an easy conclusion

1:01:09

to make, but it doesn't mean it's right.

1:01:12

Exactly spot on. And really you can kind

1:01:14

of poke holes in almost

1:01:17

every one of the theories. You can.

1:01:19

Right. So if he ended his life,

1:01:22

where's his body? They're saying there's

1:01:25

no way that his body floats down the

1:01:27

river. Okay. They dove,

1:01:29

they checked it, checked multiple places.

1:01:31

They should have found it. And they actually went down further

1:01:34

down the river than they needed

1:01:35

to or needed to just to make sure

1:01:37

what they were saying is correct. So you have

1:01:40

that issue and then I go back

1:01:42

to if it's a

1:01:44

scenario where he just wanted to get away.

1:01:48

And for whatever reason, those scenarios

1:01:50

are plausible.

1:01:52

I just don't understand why

1:01:55

someone would do it and

1:01:57

then never contact their family. Yeah.

1:02:00

because I

1:02:01

just don't see the downside in

1:02:03

doing so. The upside is

1:02:05

your family no longer is heartbroken

1:02:08

and worried.

1:02:09

You you've relieved some of that

1:02:12

by letting them know you're okay. Doesn't make

1:02:14

sense for somebody like him. No, it

1:02:16

does now. If you hated your family,

1:02:19

you had like this strained relationship.

1:02:22

You never wanted to see them again and you

1:02:25

didn't care how the story, how

1:02:27

you're leaving affected them. That

1:02:29

would be another story. That's not

1:02:31

what I'm getting from Lee

1:02:33

Cutler.

1:02:34

That's, that's not who he was. This

1:02:37

is a person who went out of his way to help

1:02:39

everyone. I think sometimes at

1:02:42

the expense of his own wellbeing.

1:02:44

Yeah.

1:02:45

Yeah. And so you're telling me he's

1:02:47

not going to allay the fears and

1:02:49

anxiety of his mother.

1:02:52

Yeah. I think he'd want to

1:02:53

give her comfort. Yeah. Yeah. So that one

1:02:56

is tough. And then, you know,

1:02:58

obviously one that we really

1:03:00

haven't talked about is that, you

1:03:04

know, he could have made this

1:03:06

trip to bear boo set

1:03:08

up the makeshift camp is kind

1:03:10

of like a mini survivalist thing.

1:03:12

I could see somebody doing that. Sure. Yeah.

1:03:15

I'm going to test my metal, but I'm not, I'm

1:03:17

not in the wilds of Alaska. I'm by the side

1:03:19

of a river in Wisconsin. Yeah. If I need to get

1:03:22

somewhere I can get there. Yeah. I'll just go back to

1:03:24

the car and drive home, but something

1:03:28

happened there and you could envision a scenario

1:03:30

or at least I can

1:03:36

envision a scenario where if

1:03:39

somebody wanted to do harm to this individual

1:03:41

to Lee

1:03:44

Cutler,

1:03:45

and they found some of what he

1:03:47

had with him,

1:03:48

the letters. Yeah. Okay.

1:03:51

Some of these things kind of made it

1:03:53

seem as though he had

1:03:55

possible designs on

1:03:56

ending

1:03:58

his life. They.

1:03:59

they could have taken the

1:04:01

Advil PM and

1:04:03

chucked most of it in the river. They

1:04:05

could have. And really kind of staged

1:04:08

the scene to make it look as though

1:04:11

he ended his life. You

1:04:13

know, they, they could have placed the clothes

1:04:16

where they were. They could have even went downstream

1:04:19

and put the khakis. I'm, you know, again,

1:04:21

if we're talking theories, you might as well throw

1:04:23

it all out there. Why not?

1:04:25

It's all plausible. Because we don't have

1:04:27

evidence to support

1:04:30

or really disprove any of them. So

1:04:33

how is one not

1:04:35

as valid as the next, but

1:04:38

you know, it's a very

1:04:41

vexing case. It is. I

1:04:43

will say that it is because

1:04:46

nobody, he never has

1:04:48

resurfaced. He's never contacted

1:04:51

anyone. So what happened? And

1:04:54

I think this is one where, you know,

1:04:56

listeners, we'll have to put their

1:04:59

detective hat on and kind of come

1:05:01

to their own conclusion to what

1:05:04

is the most likely scenario

1:05:06

or outcome to them. Because

1:05:09

that's really all we can do.

1:05:11

But that's it for our episode on the disappearance

1:05:13

of Lee Cutler gives, we've got some voicemails.

1:05:16

You want to check them out? Get serum.

1:05:17

Hey guys, it's Oliver from stock. I'm

1:05:20

a resident. I called about 21 weeks

1:05:22

ago now cause I found out I was pregnant.

1:05:25

I didn't have anyone to talk to. My husband wasn't home

1:05:27

yet. So I felt like it was only

1:05:29

fair to update you guys. And I should know that

1:05:31

I'm 21 weeks pregnant with a very healthy

1:05:33

baby boy. So I don't know. You guys were

1:05:35

the first people I told. So I felt like these

1:05:38

are some kind of updates. So everything's

1:05:40

been really well over here and I hope you guys are

1:05:42

going really well and I hope your families are really well

1:05:44

and stay safe and keep you in time.

1:05:47

And that's great news about Mike Jr.

1:05:49

Mike Jr. So

1:05:52

yeah, I love that voicemail. I can't

1:05:54

believe it's been five months. Yeah. Because

1:05:56

it's, it seems like last month

1:05:58

when she called.

1:05:59

but

1:06:00

it's so cool to get an update. And I'm not

1:06:02

sure if we played the original one on T

1:06:05

cat or unsolved. I can't remember either.

1:06:07

But, um, yeah, yeah, I'm

1:06:09

expecting, uh,

1:06:11

another call down the road

1:06:14

saying, uh, Mike Jr has been born

1:06:16

that Mike Jr has been born. And he

1:06:18

came out with a full handlebar

1:06:20

mustache. Oh, that'd be awesome.

1:06:22

Hi, Mike and Jimmy. This is Ashley.

1:06:25

I have been listening to you guys for a few

1:06:27

years and I just love you and love the way you tell

1:06:29

stories and joke with each other. You're

1:06:31

so much fun. Um, I've

1:06:33

never called before, so this is kind of fun, but

1:06:35

I was listening to the Lisa Al

1:06:38

on the true crime, um, all the time unsolved.

1:06:42

And you were talking about, you know,

1:06:44

if you're being followed by a police officer, you're getting

1:06:46

pulled over and you don't feel safe. What

1:06:48

would you do? Cause you can continue on, go

1:06:51

to a safer area, but maybe risk getting a

1:06:53

ticket. And I don't know if it's

1:06:55

the same everywhere, but I know where

1:06:57

I live, not only is it perfectly

1:07:00

legal, but it's also highly encouraged

1:07:02

by our police department that if you're ever

1:07:04

getting pulled over, but you don't feel safer,

1:07:06

you feel like something's fishy, you

1:07:09

drive to the nearest police station

1:07:11

and park there. Chances

1:07:14

are that if, you know, obviously if it's somebody

1:07:16

who's not a police officer, they're just going

1:07:18

to keep on driving. And if it really was

1:07:20

a police officer, he will understand

1:07:23

and be perfectly fine with you

1:07:25

doing that. Cause it's all about safety.

1:07:27

Um, especially women obviously and younger

1:07:29

girls driving want to make sure everybody's feeling

1:07:32

safe and protected and it's

1:07:34

perfectly fine to do so. So just wanted to pass

1:07:36

that along. Like I said, I don't know if it's everywhere,

1:07:38

but it's definitely in my area. And if it's

1:07:40

not, it should be everywhere cause it

1:07:43

just makes good common sense. All right. Love

1:07:45

you guys. Peace out.

1:07:46

I always drive to a duck and donuts because

1:07:49

I figure there's going to be police officers. Yeah.

1:07:51

And I say, Hey, listen,

1:07:53

that's so wrong. Why don't we come in and have a coffee

1:07:55

and a donut and talk about this. I'll treat

1:07:58

and you know, that's hard for me to do. That is.

1:07:59

So, you know, I appreciate that voicemail so

1:08:02

much, but what she said

1:08:04

is the problem that you and I have. We

1:08:06

do cases all over the country, we do cases

1:08:08

all over the world, but there's no

1:08:10

way for us to know each and every

1:08:12

little law and state

1:08:15

law, jurisdiction, all that stuff. So

1:08:17

I don't know if that is something

1:08:20

that's allowed everywhere,

1:08:22

but like she said, to

1:08:24

me, that's a really good idea.

1:08:27

Yeah, I think it's a great idea. And I also think

1:08:30

in a situation like that, if you have

1:08:32

a cell phone, I think you could call 911 and

1:08:34

say, I'm being followed, it

1:08:37

seems to be a police officer, they should

1:08:39

be able to quickly identify

1:08:42

if you actually are being followed

1:08:44

by a police officer being asked to pull over, right? They're

1:08:47

gonna be able to look in their system and find that

1:08:49

out. I don't, maybe not 911. I

1:08:52

was gonna say, is that a 911 worthy call? I

1:08:55

don't know about that, but maybe call

1:08:57

whatever, that police. Okay,

1:08:59

but then you're gonna get busted for looking that up on

1:09:02

your phone. Oh man, that's right, that's another ticket. So

1:09:04

now you're gonna, well, you're gonna have to Siri

1:09:06

it or whatever it's called. Yeah,

1:09:08

that's

1:09:09

true. All right, don't take that advice from me. I

1:09:11

was gonna say, you're gonna get people in trouble, but-

1:09:13

Go to the Dunkin Donuts or the police station. I

1:09:16

do like the idea and

1:09:17

I would have told my

1:09:20

girls the same thing. Yeah. You

1:09:22

know, if you think something's not right, if you

1:09:24

have any questions,

1:09:26

don't be afraid to go,

1:09:28

you know, to some place, like you said, someplace

1:09:30

that's crowded. A police station's great

1:09:32

if you know where it is. If you get

1:09:35

pulled over in your hometown, okay, that's not too

1:09:37

hard, but. You know, third option is

1:09:39

just to go for the state line. See

1:09:41

if you can make it. Yeah. That's the

1:09:43

Gibby option. That's right. Hey Mike, hey Gibby.

1:09:45

I just wanted to leave you guys a voicemail telling

1:09:47

you that you guys are my

1:09:50

favorite podcast, like ever. I

1:09:53

have been binging true crime all

1:09:55

the time and true crime on salt. And

1:09:58

I was- by some of

1:10:00

your merch for my 16th birthday this

1:10:04

Thursday, April 27th. I just

1:10:06

thought I'd call in and see guys

1:10:08

that you were great and I love you. This

1:10:10

is Damien, by the way. Bye. Well,

1:10:13

happy birthday. Yeah, absolutely.

1:10:16

Happy birthday. Appreciate

1:10:18

the, the kudos. Awesome

1:10:20

to get merged for your birthday. So,

1:10:23

um, yeah, just very, very cool. All

1:10:26

right, buddy. That is it for

1:10:28

another episode of true crime, all the

1:10:30

time unsolved. So for Mike and Gibby, stay

1:10:32

safe and keep your own time ticking.

1:10:56

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