0:04

Sometime in the early 80s, Ario

0:06

Speedwagon's airplane made an unannounced,

0:08

middle-of-the-night landing. This is my

0:10

friend Kyle McLaughlin, the star

0:12

of Twin Peaks. And

0:14

he's telling me about how he discovered a

0:16

real-life Twin Peaks in rural North Carolina, not

0:19

far from where he filmed Blue Velvet. What

0:21

was on the plane was copious amounts of

0:23

drugs coming in from South America. Supposedly

0:25

Pablo Escobar went looking for other

0:28

spots, quiet, out-of-the-way places to bring

0:30

in his cocaine. My

0:35

name is Joshua Davis, and I'm an investigative

0:37

reporter. Kyle and I

0:39

talk all the time about the strange things we

0:41

come across, but nothing was quite as strange as

0:43

what we found in Varnum Town, North Carolina. There's

0:47

crooked cops, brother against brother. Everyone's got

0:49

a story to tell, but does the

0:51

truth even exist? Welcome

0:54

to Varnum Town. Varnum

0:56

Town is available wherever you listen to

0:59

podcasts. Hello,

1:37

everyone, and welcome to episode 349 of

1:39

the True Crime All the Time Unsolved

1:41

podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me

1:44

as always is my partner in true

1:46

crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are

1:48

you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about yourself?

1:50

I'm doing very well. I'm having a pretty

1:52

good week. Yeah, good. I'm

1:54

pretty sure my youngest is coming home from

1:56

college this weekend. I always get excited about

1:58

that. Yeah, good weekend. for you. Yeah. Let's

2:01

go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We

2:04

had Amy May jump out at our highest

2:06

level. Amy May, thank you. Wade

2:08

Woodard. What's going on Wade?

2:10

Jessica L. Hey Jessica. Catherine

2:13

Einert's daughter. Well thanks Einert's

2:15

daughter. Joey Bales. Hey

2:17

Joey. Jane Hamlin. What's going on

2:19

Jane? Allison Clark. There's Allison. Leah

2:21

Montgomery jumped out at our highest

2:24

level. Oh that's awesome Leah. Nurse

2:26

Maria. There's Nurse Maria. Just

2:29

a girl who loves giraffes jumped out

2:31

at our highest level. I'm just a

2:33

guy that loves giraffes. And last but

2:35

not least, Genevieve Plant. Oh thanks Genevieve.

2:37

And then if we go back into

2:39

the vault, this

2:41

week we selected Kimberly Manley.

2:43

Awesome. Thank you Kimberly. Yeah

2:45

we appreciate all the support

2:47

on Patreon that we get. Because we

2:49

have an episode out right now on True Crime All

2:52

The Time where we're talking

2:54

about Rod Matthews and

2:56

we're headed to Massachusetts. Rod

2:58

was 14 years old, killed

3:01

another 14 year old. And

3:03

there's just a lot to

3:05

this one. You know it's the reasoning

3:07

behind it, it's the planning, there's talk

3:10

of mental health issues, the

3:12

trial, there's just a lot

3:14

going on. It's a good case. Alright

3:17

buddy are you ready to get into

3:19

this episode of True Crime All The

3:21

Time Unsolved? I am ready. We're talking

3:23

about the unsolved murder of

3:25

Mallory Manning. Mallory Manning

3:27

was a 27 year old

3:30

sex worker who was murdered in

3:32

Christchurch, New Zealand in December 2008.

3:35

A member of the Mongrel mob

3:37

gang was arrested and convicted of

3:39

her murder but the charge was

3:41

later dismissed. Mallory's case

3:43

is one of the most high

3:46

profile unsolved murders in New Zealand.

3:49

Nothi Lynette Manning who went by

3:51

the name Mallory was born in

3:53

Nelson, New Zealand on February 6,

3:57

1981. Mallory and her siblings Rob and

3:59

Jasmine Had a difficult childhood

4:02

their father left the family and

4:04

didn't have much contact with them Rob

4:07

Manning told the New Zealand Herald

4:10

we were not brought up very well the

4:12

stepfather at the time Not

4:14

the stepfather now was really

4:16

horrible that probably didn't

4:19

help the whole course of

4:21

life's tracks Oh, I think he's

4:23

right. You know when you have a bad childhood

4:25

a bad stepfather Your

4:28

father, you know essentially abandons

4:30

you if that's always

4:32

tough for me because I just

4:35

don't understand I love being

4:37

a father right so much

4:40

It's one of the greatest things that

4:42

you know, I've ever experienced in life.

4:44

I can't imagine You

4:47

hear those stories about some

4:49

guy who goes out for scratchers and

4:51

then never comes back Yeah, or

4:53

goes out for cigarettes and never comes back.

4:56

I could never do that. I can never just

4:59

Be away from my kids let alone Abandoned

5:02

them and never really have contact

5:04

with them. Unfortunately, there's people

5:07

out there that do that there there are and then

5:10

Let's say your mom remarries Someone

5:13

who at first she thinks is a good

5:16

guy. Yeah, but he turns out not

5:18

to be a good guy and Apparently

5:22

their first stepfather was horrible

5:24

to them. So when you say that all these events Set

5:29

you on a track in life.

5:31

Well, obviously they do. Oh, yeah, they have a

5:33

big-time effect Now does it mean that

5:35

everybody who goes through this is, you know gonna

5:37

have a bad adult life? No,

5:42

it doesn't mean that but it can't help

5:44

you. No, it definitely makes it

5:46

challenging Yes, the siblings had a close

5:48

relationship and Mallory often stood up

5:51

for them in school Rob

5:54

said that unity of all three of us going

5:56

through through

6:00

the same stuff made us very

6:02

close. And that I can see as well.

6:05

You know, you talk about, and this

6:07

isn't a great comparison, but you talk

6:09

about guys who went through

6:11

war together, adversity,

6:15

and became very, very close.

6:17

Like lifelong friend, because

6:19

of what they shared, you

6:22

could see this with siblings as

6:24

well. A lot of

6:26

siblings are close anyway. But I

6:28

think to go through some

6:30

really bad experiences together.

6:33

It's a different type of bond. Yeah. I

6:35

think there, there is a different type of bond

6:37

there. Maybe it can get

6:39

even stronger because of it. Melary

6:42

left school at age 14 and

6:45

entered the foster care system. She

6:47

started using drugs around this time. She

6:50

started doing sex work at the age of 15.

6:53

So Rob said it didn't

6:55

help. Right. The

6:57

whole course of their

6:59

life, it obviously didn't help

7:02

Melary. And by the age of

7:05

14, she was going through some

7:07

rough stuff. Yeah. In

7:09

1999, when she was 18 years old, Melary was

7:11

sentenced to 18 months in jail for

7:14

stabbing a shop employee with

7:17

a blood filled syringe during

7:19

a robbery. I

7:21

don't think I've ever even heard of that. Sounds

7:24

dangerous. Potentially

7:26

very dangerous. Whose

7:28

blood is it? What's in that blood? I

7:31

mean, you would think you're not going

7:33

to kill somebody by stabbing

7:35

them with a syringe. It's

7:38

not going to feel good. Right. But you're

7:40

probably not going to kill them. But

7:42

could there potentially be something in that blood

7:44

that would kill them? Yeah,

7:46

absolutely. The other thing that

7:49

is really jumping out at me is

7:52

you and I have done so many unsolved cases.

7:55

And oftentimes we're talking about

7:57

the victims in such glow.

8:00

terms almost all the

8:02

time. Here we're not. We're

8:05

talking about this girl had a

8:07

rough upbringing and

8:10

she started getting in trouble at

8:12

a pretty early age. After

8:15

she got out of prison she

8:17

continued sex work which is

8:19

legal in New Zealand. She

8:21

also continued using drugs.

8:24

Melorie's older sister Jasmine died

8:27

of suicide in July 2008.

8:29

She was only 29 years

8:32

old. Jasmine was in witness

8:34

protection at the time of her

8:36

death and had lost contact with

8:38

her siblings. The New

8:40

Zealand Herald reported that Jasmine

8:43

ran in similar circles as

8:46

Melorie. So I mean it sounds like

8:48

Jasmine and Melorie both had

8:51

difficult adult lives. The

8:53

pair with their difficult childhood. Yes.

8:56

I mean she was in witness protection for

8:59

what we don't know but

9:01

if Melorie is running in some rough

9:03

circles and it said that Jasmine is

9:06

running in the same circles okay I

9:08

think you can kind of

9:10

put some of it together. Melorie

9:12

was profoundly affected by the loss

9:14

of her sister per the New

9:16

Zealand Herald. She decided that she was

9:18

going to change her life telling

9:21

her brother Rob I don't want

9:23

to end up like that and I'll

9:25

tell you what sometimes that's exactly what it

9:28

takes. Seeing someone you

9:30

know doing the same thing that you're doing

9:33

end up dying or

9:36

you know something really bad happening

9:38

to them. I've experienced

9:40

it where you know even

9:42

at my age seeing people

9:44

that are close to me in age

9:47

die. Yeah. Makes you reevaluate.

9:49

It does. Maybe I

9:51

need to start eating better maybe I need to

9:53

you know start a fitness

9:56

regimen. I don't but I think

9:58

about that type of stuff all. the time.

10:01

Yeah. Melary joined a methadone program,

10:04

looked into studying art, and moved

10:06

in with her mother. Melary's

10:09

long-term romantic partner, Kent Gory, told

10:11

the police that they

10:14

started planning to have a baby and

10:16

were going to straighten their lives

10:18

up. Melary left

10:20

home to perform sex work. On the

10:23

night of December 18th,

10:25

2008, she wanted to earn

10:27

money to buy Christmas gifts for her

10:29

family. According to the New Zealand

10:31

Herald, it was supposed to be

10:33

her last night doing sex work.

10:36

So this obviously was going to be

10:38

part of her change, what

10:40

they called straightening up their lives, even

10:42

though it's not illegal in New Zealand,

10:45

but obviously she had made the

10:47

decision. Yeah, this is her new beginning. I'm not going

10:49

to do this anymore. I'm going to do something else.

10:52

She left home at 9.30 p.m. to

10:54

go to work on a street corner

10:56

in Christchurch, New Zealand. Witnesses

10:58

saw her on the corner of

11:01

Peterborough and Manchester Streets until 10.30

11:03

p.m. She

11:06

was seen in a dark Ford Falcon at

11:08

one point. Melary used her

11:10

cell phone to make a call at

11:13

10.42 p.m. and sent her last text

11:15

to a client at 10.43 p.m. No

11:19

one heard from her after this. And

11:22

you and I have talked about sex work a lot over

11:24

the years. Now while it's

11:27

illegal in New Zealand, to

11:29

my way of thinking, it's not going to

11:31

change some of the dangers. No,

11:33

I think it's going to be

11:36

just as dangerous. Yeah, you're still

11:38

getting into cars with

11:40

people you don't know. There's

11:42

no way to know their intentions. You

11:45

might be driven to some

11:48

location where no one else

11:50

is around. It's dangerous stuff. It's not

11:52

like they're coming to your office, being

11:55

buzzed in, taken back to

11:57

a room where you have

11:59

security. and you know,

12:01

you do what you got to do and then they,

12:03

you know, they pay and they leave. It's not like

12:05

that. Well, maybe they do have some of that in

12:07

New Zealand. I don't know, but... But it's not what

12:09

she was... Right. Obviously, the way that we're describing what

12:13

Mallory was doing was

12:15

going to be not all that

12:17

safe. Right. Mallory's body

12:19

was found just after dawn

12:21

on December 19th. A kayaker

12:23

found her floating in the

12:25

Avon River. She was

12:27

found partially nude and

12:29

suffered extensive injuries. She had

12:32

been raped, strangled, stabbed

12:34

in the chest several times, and

12:36

beaten in the head and legs

12:38

with a piece of reinforced steel.

12:41

This is brutal. Yeah. A

12:43

very, very brutal murder.

12:46

Robbery was discounted as a motive because

12:49

a bag with the money she

12:51

earned that night was on her shoulder when

12:53

her body was found. And

12:55

I think that's an important clue

12:58

in any unsolved case. When

13:00

money is left at the

13:02

crime scene or, you know, at the spot

13:05

where the body is found, it

13:07

tells you something. Now, it could be

13:09

that the perpetrator was in such a

13:11

hurry to get out of there that

13:13

they didn't want to take the time

13:15

to search through the bag, or it could

13:18

mean that they didn't care

13:20

about the money. Yeah. That wasn't

13:22

the reason for the murder. The police

13:25

first looked into her clients. They wanted

13:27

to know the last person to pick

13:29

her up, and they searched a parking

13:31

lot where she often met clients. She

13:34

went to this spot as late as 9.30 p.m.

13:36

on the night she was killed. And

13:39

you can understand why they would want

13:41

to do that, right? A lot of

13:43

cases we talk about the significant other

13:46

being looked at. Yeah. And I'm

13:48

sure that person would be looked at

13:50

here as well. But when

13:52

you have someone doing

13:54

the job that that Mallory is doing,

13:57

you are going to want to look

13:59

at those Clients. Yeah. I

14:01

think you're going to want to talk to the last

14:03

person that she was with. And

14:05

hopefully maybe some of the previous

14:08

ones too, because maybe they got a little

14:10

upset with her or especially anyone that night

14:12

in January 2009, it

14:15

was announced that the police

14:17

were using Mallory's client book to

14:19

track down her former associates. It

14:22

contained the names and numbers of 40 people.

14:25

The police announced they were looking for a

14:28

man seen in a blue four-wheel drive

14:30

vehicle on the night of the murder. One

14:32

sex worker said the man approached her

14:35

at 10.35 PM and

14:37

asked what her prices. Another

14:40

sex worker told the police she

14:42

was approached on January 2nd by

14:44

a man who wanted to talk

14:47

about Mallory's death on January

14:49

22nd. It was reported

14:51

that the police were seeking a

14:53

loud four-wheel drive vehicle. Two

14:56

pedestrians saw the vehicle driving slowly

14:58

along the river after they

15:00

heard a big splash. Oh,

15:02

that's interesting. What's that big splash?

15:04

Her body going into it? I

15:07

mean, I think you could make that

15:09

assumption. The vehicle was

15:11

possibly a dark green or

15:13

blue Nissan Safari or

15:16

Mitsubishi Pajero. It

15:18

had tinted windows, shiny

15:20

rims, and a silver strip around

15:23

the windows. Gives you

15:25

ever wonder why in other countries they

15:28

have different names for models of

15:30

cars? Marketing, man. It's all marketing.

15:33

Yeah, I never quite understood it.

15:36

I don't know if the cars are completely different

15:38

than what we have here in the U.S.

15:41

or it's the same basic

15:43

model, but they use a different name.

15:45

Yeah. I mean, maybe the name

15:47

here means something, but in another

15:49

country, it could be offensive. Yeah, that could

15:51

be as well. I've never heard of a

15:54

Nissan Safari or a Mitsubishi

15:56

Pajero here in the

15:58

U.S. 2009,

16:00

a man who previously

16:02

lived with Mallory told three news

16:05

that the police asked him if

16:07

he could recognize a voice from

16:09

an anonymous tip phone call. He

16:12

identified that voice as

16:14

belonging to a member of the

16:17

city's criminal underworld. Things

16:19

always get interesting when you bring in the criminal

16:22

underworld. Just ask Batman. Well,

16:24

the one thing I will say is that

16:26

it seems as though this is

16:29

a possibility in a lot of

16:31

unsolved episodes, right? Criminal

16:34

underworld, mafia mob, criminal

16:37

enterprise, whatever you want to call it. The

16:40

one thing that it seems to

16:42

do is open up a

16:45

ton of different possibilities. The

16:47

unidentified man said, I definitely

16:49

100% recognize the person. And

16:53

as I know, I'm the only person that

16:55

has identified that person on that tape. I've

16:58

given the police that information and

17:00

hopefully that will lead to Mallory's

17:03

killer or killers. Do you

17:05

think you would be good at recognizing a

17:07

voice on tape? If I heard

17:09

it a lot, I think I could. I

17:11

mean, people have recognized our

17:13

voices in hotels

17:15

and in places like that,

17:18

especially like at crime con. Yeah,

17:20

I think if I've heard it a lot,

17:22

I could. If I just heard it once or twice,

17:25

I don't know. Yeah. I mean,

17:27

obviously if it was my wife or one of

17:29

my daughters, I would know if it was you

17:31

or my friends. But if it

17:33

was someone that I knew only casually,

17:35

I think it might

17:37

be a little tough. Unless it's

17:40

like unique. Yeah. That's

17:42

true. I'm really good with faces. I don't know

17:45

how good I would be with voices

17:47

that I only heard like once.

17:49

You ever see in the movies where they

17:52

put somebody in a lineup, right? Or

17:55

they have a lineup, but it's really

17:57

to hear them say

17:59

something. So they step up

18:01

and they say a very specific phrase.

18:03

Yeah, put your hands up. Yeah, there's

18:06

a great scene in Unusual

18:08

Suspects, which is a movie that I

18:10

love, where they all have to

18:12

step up and say the same phrase and

18:15

they're kind of laughing or they're saying it

18:17

in a strange way. Right, not saying it in

18:19

the way that the detectives would want

18:21

you to say it. In December

18:23

2010, two years

18:25

after Mallory was murdered, the

18:28

Christchurch police announced that they

18:30

believed they knew where

18:32

Mallory was killed. Detective

18:34

Inspector Greg Williams, head of

18:37

the investigation, said examinations of

18:39

her clothes found a

18:41

significant amount of seeds that

18:43

indicated she had been

18:46

attacked in an open area on

18:48

something like wasteland. I

18:51

don't know exactly what is meant

18:53

by seeds. I was kind

18:55

of thinking like those, what we

18:57

would call like a burr. Yeah. I

18:59

think they are technically seeds, but those ones

19:01

that like stick to your clothing

19:04

or your shoelaces or something

19:06

like that. Maybe. That

19:08

sounds reasonable. It does. Especially if it's

19:11

in the wasteland. Detective Inspector Williams said he

19:14

believed Mallory was picked up around 10.40pm and

19:16

entered the

19:19

river just before 11. He

19:21

said per One News, our

19:23

timing suggests that she and her attackers

19:25

would have arrived there just before 10.50pm.

19:29

This implies they had previous

19:31

knowledge of the existence

19:33

and whereabouts of this site.

19:36

What I take from that is that

19:38

number one, not a lot of time

19:40

went by. Between the time

19:43

she was picked up and the time

19:45

she was killed. Then I

19:47

think because of that short period of

19:50

time, their thinking is

19:52

that they must have already had

19:54

or known about this

19:56

site. They didn't spend

19:58

time. driving around

20:00

trying to find the perfect place.

20:02

Yes, they knew where they were

20:05

going to go. So they they

20:07

must have knowledge of it or have

20:09

had knowledge of it. Shopify

20:13

is already taking the cash register

20:15

online helping millions sell billions around the

20:17

world. But did you know the Shopify

20:20

can do the same thing at your

20:22

retail store. Give your point of sale

20:24

system a serious upgrade with Shopify. With

20:28

Shopify you get a powerhouse selling

20:31

part that effortlessly unites your in-person

20:33

and online sales into one source

20:35

of truth. Track every sale across

20:37

your business in one place and

20:39

know exactly what's in stock. Shopify

20:42

POS is your command center for

20:44

your retail store from accepting payments

20:46

to managing inventory. Shopify has everything

20:48

you need to sell in person.

20:50

Connect with customers in line and

20:53

online. Shopify helps you drive store

20:55

traffic with plug and play tools

20:57

built for marketing campaigns from

20:59

TikTok to Instagram and beyond. Get

21:01

hardware that fits your business. Take

21:03

payments by smartphone, transform your tablet

21:06

into a point of sale system

21:08

or use Shopify's POSCO mobile device

21:10

for a battle tested solution. Plus

21:12

Shopify's award-winning help is there to

21:14

support your success every step of

21:16

the way. Do retail right with

21:19

Shopify. Sign up for a $1

21:21

per month trial period

21:24

at shopify.com/unsolved all lowercase.

21:26

Go to shopify.com/ unsolved

21:29

to take your retail business

21:31

to the next level today.

21:34

shopify.com/unsolved. The

21:36

police identified numerous potential

21:38

crime scenes. One

21:40

of the sites was a large

21:42

section at 25 Galbraith Avenue which

21:45

is close to where Mallory's body was

21:47

found. This site had already

21:49

been searched twice and multiple items

21:52

of interest in samples were taken

21:54

and examined. At the time

21:56

of the murder of warehouse on the property

21:58

was being used. as what

22:01

was termed the Gangpad of

22:03

the Itaeroa Mongrel

22:06

Mob in Christchurch.

22:08

The gang used the warehouse until

22:10

February or March of 2009. It

22:14

was their hangout. Yes, I'm

22:16

assuming that's what they meant by gangpad.

22:19

The Mongrel Mob, also called the

22:21

Mighty Mongrel Mob, is an organized

22:23

street gang and prison gang in

22:25

New Zealand. The gang has over

22:27

30 chapters throughout the

22:29

country, as well as

22:32

chapters in Australia and Canada. It

22:34

is the largest gang in New Zealand.

22:37

I've never heard of the gang. I

22:39

haven't either, but it

22:41

does sound a lot

22:44

like maybe

22:47

a big time motorcycle

22:49

gang. I'm thinking

22:51

of the Hell's Angels or

22:53

something like that, who

22:56

have maybe a lot of things chapters

22:58

spread all over the country.

23:01

Thirty chapters is a lot.

23:03

It is, and then extending

23:05

into a couple of other countries,

23:08

the gang was founded by Yuse in

23:11

the 1960s. The

23:13

name reportedly originated from a judge

23:15

who called a group of young

23:18

men mongrels. You bunch of mongrels.

23:20

Many gang members ride motorcycles

23:22

and wear leather jackets with

23:24

red and white patches. So

23:27

I don't know that it's technically

23:29

a motorcycle gang, but I

23:32

guess a lot of the gang members do ride

23:34

motorcycles. Maybe they're perceived that

23:37

way. The gang is

23:39

predominantly composed of Maury people.

23:42

Some members use Nazi symbols,

23:44

have Nazi tattoos, and even

23:47

do Nazi salutes. One

23:49

member who spoke to Vai said that a

23:52

swastika is a hated symbol, and

23:54

the gang wanted to use symbols

23:57

that would insult people. It's

23:59

not that ... They're pro nazi.

24:01

Rather they are anti

24:03

society in want to

24:05

ascend. The. Crown. Well. That's

24:07

one way to do it. Yes if

24:09

you want in sold a lot

24:11

of people. A. Swastika is a

24:14

good way to. Do. It. It's.

24:16

Interesting how they say the crown is. Like to try to

24:18

take it to the hierarchy. On September

24:21

twenty ninth, Two Thousand Eleven, the

24:23

police revealed they had a Dna

24:25

profile. From. A semen sample

24:28

taken from Mallory bought. The.

24:30

Sample had no match, but investigators

24:32

ruled out her partner and to

24:34

clients from the night of the

24:37

murder. They. Obtain the Dna profile

24:39

within days of the murders, but

24:41

they waited almost three years to

24:43

inform the public. Mumps, They

24:45

had the reasons. Yet. We don't always

24:48

know what those reasons are, but

24:50

we speculate on them and a

24:52

number of cases. Could it

24:54

be that? You, they didn't want

24:56

to scare some one off. My.

24:59

Thought is if the person

25:01

who raped Mallory that night.

25:04

Last. That. Semen. right?

25:07

And then all of sudden very

25:09

quickly found out that. Are

25:11

the police have Dna from it? The.

25:13

Would be a lot more

25:15

worried. Than. Than maybe they

25:18

were before the hates obtain that

25:20

now. And maybe would

25:22

try to fleet yes. But. After

25:24

three years. Okay, obviously

25:26

they haven't figured out who it

25:29

is. They're taking it to the

25:31

public. Forensic. Examination

25:33

suggested Mallory was sexually attacked

25:35

by the Dna couldn't be

25:38

ruled out as that of

25:40

an unknown client. Months.

25:42

Later, the press announced a major

25:44

development in the case. On March

25:46

Twenty ninth, two Thousand and Twelve.

25:49

Twenty. One year old Maha Fossett

25:51

was arrested and appeared in

25:53

court t here charges of

25:55

kidnapping and murder. Detective.

25:58

inspector gregg williams said Fosse

26:00

was not linked to the case by the

26:02

semen sample. The police alleged

26:04

he was linked to the address where

26:06

Mallory was believed to have been killed.

26:09

Investigators believed multiple people were

26:11

involved in the kidnapping and

26:14

murder. All right. So we're

26:16

getting some movement here. We're getting movement,

26:18

but I'm struggling to

26:20

figure out how strong

26:22

it is. Okay. He's

26:25

linked to this gang

26:27

path. And he was a

26:29

member of the mongrel mob gang. He was

26:31

known as muck dog, but

26:34

he's not linked to the semen sample.

26:36

He's only linked to the address

26:39

where they think she was murdered.

26:41

Yeah. It doesn't seem all

26:43

that solid yet. Right. But a

26:46

starting point. Well, a starting point, but they've

26:48

arrested the guy. So

26:50

normally, at least in

26:52

my eyes, you would think you would

26:54

need more to make an arrest.

26:58

Maybe they had it. Maybe they just

27:00

didn't release it at this point. It's

27:02

also New Zealand. So maybe it works a little

27:05

bit different than here. Yes, that's true. We don't

27:07

know. We don't know everything about the justice system

27:09

here in the US. We certainly don't know everything

27:11

about, uh, the justice system

27:13

in other countries. I guess

27:15

my only point was it

27:17

seemed pretty flimsy. What we know

27:19

so far, according to the

27:22

New Zealand Herald, the mob muscled

27:24

in to the red light district

27:26

of Christchurch during the months when

27:29

Mallory decided to stop doing sex

27:31

work, they demanded a $20 tax

27:33

from sex workers for every transaction.

27:36

Faucet's job was to watch the

27:38

sex workers on Manchester street and

27:41

enforce the game tax. Okay.

27:43

So we get a little more information. Yeah. It's

27:46

not information that is directly tying him

27:48

to her murder, but we're getting some

27:50

more. That sounds like he was an

27:52

enforcer. And we know

27:54

that that night she

27:57

was on Manchester street.

27:59

Mallory's. His brother, Rob Manning, told

28:01

the New Zealand Herald that she

28:04

would not have been willing to give

28:06

up the money she earned. He said she

28:08

was trying to get off the streets. She

28:11

hadn't worked for ages, but that

28:13

night she went to the place where

28:15

she used to work and they were all like, who

28:17

are you? It was all different. She

28:20

was feisty, didn't put up

28:22

with too much shit from people. Not

28:25

that that's always a good thing. She

28:27

had done some stuff in her life, but

28:29

she wasn't born like that. She was just

28:31

a normal kid, but grew up

28:33

without perhaps the best start in life.

28:35

She made her own decisions and

28:38

she decided to do what she did. Unfortunately,

28:41

she paid the ultimate price. What

28:43

she did was a risky job. He's

28:46

echoing something that we said many, many times.

28:49

Sex work is a risky job. The

28:52

one thing that I'm really

28:54

taking away from Rob's

28:56

statement is that she hadn't

28:58

worked in a while. During

29:02

these months where she'd not

29:04

been working or not been

29:06

doing that job at least, had

29:09

the gang come in, put

29:11

in this $20 tax,

29:14

and then all of a sudden that night

29:16

she goes out knowing nothing

29:18

about it. Right. Where they

29:20

come wanting to collect. Her

29:24

heart earned money and could

29:26

that have been the impetus

29:29

for her murder? Maha

29:31

Fawcett went to trial on February 10th,

29:33

2014. Prosecutors

29:37

argued that Fawcett took

29:39

part in or was party

29:41

to Mallory's murder in order

29:43

to earn his gang patch.

29:46

They emphasized that Fawcett was

29:48

not the only person involved and

29:50

that the DNA sample could be

29:52

the key to identifying the other

29:55

perpetrators. Investigators believed

29:57

members of the mongrel Maha picked

29:59

Mallory's murder. up while she was working

30:01

on December 8th, 18th, 2008. They

30:05

took her to their pad on

30:07

Galbraith Avenue in Christchurch and attacked

30:10

her because of an alleged drug

30:12

debt. So prosecutors aren't

30:14

saying anything about this tax

30:17

angle. They're saying this

30:19

was all over some

30:21

type of drug debt and

30:24

also a way for this FOSSET guy

30:28

to earn his patch. According

30:31

to a confession by FOSSET, gang

30:33

members played loud music while

30:35

they raped her, beat her, and

30:38

stabbed her. After she was

30:40

dead, they stood over her body,

30:42

shouted a Nazi salute, and

30:45

barked like dogs. Some

30:47

gang members, including Maha FOSSET,

30:49

dumped her body in the

30:51

river. So we have

30:53

a confession by this guy,

30:56

Maha FOSSET, and the

30:58

details are extremely graphic.

31:00

Yeah, so it's very

31:02

disturbing. And then even after

31:05

she was dead, shouting,

31:07

the Nazi salutes, barking

31:09

like dogs, a lot

31:12

of stuff going on. And

31:14

then eventually he said they dumped her

31:16

body in the river. FOSSET feared

31:18

the gang would turn him in to the

31:20

police or kill him because they thought he

31:23

would snitch, so he fled the city. You

31:25

know what you don't want to be to the gang?

31:28

A snitch. A snitch. Because

31:30

he ended up in a ditch. FOSSET

31:33

represented himself with

31:35

assistance from an amicus

31:38

cure or a friend

31:40

of the court who was an

31:42

attorney named Craig Ruane.

31:45

Remember really good when you represent yourself, even if

31:47

you have a little bit of assistance. Probably

31:50

best to just have an attorney do it for you.

31:52

Oh, I think so. Now

31:55

I don't know over there what

31:57

representing yourself actually means.

32:00

with assistance of an attorney. But

32:03

a lot of the cases we talk about here in

32:05

the US, sometimes people who

32:07

represent themselves, the judge makes them

32:10

take somebody who sits

32:12

there with them, but they don't listen to them anyway.

32:14

No. So I mean what

32:16

good is it? But it's one thing to represent yourself

32:18

during like a traffic ticket or

32:21

you know a minor

32:24

infraction. But this is

32:26

murder. This is rape, torture,

32:28

murder. Yeah I think

32:30

the legal complexities in a case like

32:32

this are so

32:34

far and above something

32:37

like you called it

32:39

a minor infraction or a traffic ticket

32:41

or something like that. There's just so

32:43

much to it. You're not gonna

32:46

know any of it. Number one, you're

32:48

probably not that smart. And number two, you

32:51

haven't gone to school for it. Exactly. Even

32:53

the ones that went to school for it sometimes aren't

32:55

the best people to represent you. It's

32:58

like any profession. There are

33:00

good doctors. There are not, there are

33:02

some not great doctors. There

33:04

are very good attorneys. There are some that

33:06

are not that great. That's right. You know

33:08

they barely pass the bar, squeak

33:11

through law school and they're

33:13

an attorney. But you could say

33:16

the same thing about every profession.

33:18

Absolutely. Fawcett said in

33:20

court per the New Zealand Herald, I'm

33:23

here charged for murder for what

33:25

I've said to police. I've

33:27

made these false confessions which

33:29

was due to pressure put on by the

33:31

police. I'm very shocked to

33:33

be standing here today. Okay so

33:36

we mentioned the confession. Now he's

33:38

saying the confessions were false. He

33:41

was pressured into making them by

33:43

police. He argued that

33:45

he lied and was coached into making

33:48

false confessions. He said he wasn't at

33:50

the gang path on the night of

33:52

the murder and denied having anything to

33:55

do with it. You know it's easy to

33:57

say he's got to be full of shit.

34:00

You know why would he make the

34:02

false confession who does that? Mm-hmm. Unfortunately,

34:05

there's a lot of false confessions out there

34:08

Well 10 years ago. I probably

34:11

would have been in that camp but Having

34:14

done the research that you and I have

34:16

done, you know seeing all

34:18

the different documentaries and the

34:20

shows with cases about false

34:23

confessions It happens a

34:25

lot more than we ever thought it did

34:27

not saying what he saying here is correct

34:30

No, but we know it

34:32

can happen. Yeah, I don't think you can

34:34

dismiss it just out of hand, right? Like

34:37

I probably would have years

34:39

ago. Exactly Cuz my

34:41

thing was always you know what you just said

34:44

who in the world would confess to a

34:46

murder that they didn't commit but

34:49

then you think about you know

34:51

being in an interrogation

34:54

room for 14 16 hours Being

34:59

deprived of food

35:01

water in some cases

35:04

Getting physical. Yeah, and

35:07

then you could see how at a

35:09

certain point a person might say Just

35:12

about anything to get out

35:14

of that situation During

35:17

the trial Faucet claimed he was offered a

35:19

safe house Tattoo removal and

35:21

a cash reward if he helped lead

35:24

the police to the killers So

35:26

this guy was first interviewed in

35:28

January 2009 He

35:30

admitted he was involved in taxing

35:32

sex workers, but he said he

35:34

didn't know anything about Mallory's murder

35:37

He was interviewed five times as

35:39

a suspect between August 2009 in

35:41

March 2012

35:44

he confessed in August 2009 But

35:47

recanted a month later and

35:49

said another gang member killed

35:51

Mallory. Well, no wonder he was scared

35:54

He did snitch he fingered

35:56

another gang member. Yeah, and

35:58

that typically wouldn't in Well for somebody per

36:01

the New Zealand Herald. He told the police,

36:03

it just feels like it's so easy

36:05

for the mob to get me. It's

36:07

just been really hard on me for the

36:10

last few weeks. The mob can kill

36:12

me anytime. Well, we did

36:14

say it was the largest gang in New

36:16

Zealand. They had members

36:19

everywhere, including prisons

36:21

and jail. Oh, absolutely. So

36:24

my thought is if they wanted to get

36:26

to him, they could. He

36:28

said he never hit Mallory. When

36:31

asked why he lied, he answered, I just

36:33

felt that if I put myself in there,

36:35

then maybe I can just stay away

36:38

from the rest of the mongrel mob.

36:40

So it is very confusing, right? Because

36:44

number one, he's interviewed like

36:47

five times over three years. Right. Confesses

36:50

very early on then recants

36:53

and then says, uh, you know, another gang

36:55

member did it says he was

36:57

at the pad and says he wasn't at the pad.

37:00

In later interviews, he said he came

37:02

to the gang pad and saw that

37:05

Mallory was already dead. He claimed

37:07

he was not involved in dumping her body

37:09

in the river. And so I

37:11

do think this is the problem that you

37:13

have with Maha Fawcett and we say

37:15

it all the time. If you tell four

37:18

or five, six, seven different stories,

37:21

you don't make yourself look good

37:23

and you lose a lot of

37:25

credibility and the police are going to

37:27

think that you're doing that because you had

37:29

a, a part in it, you

37:31

were responsible. Yeah. It looks like you're trying to

37:34

cover up something. Exactly. The

37:37

jury heard that Mallory used a

37:39

variety of drugs in the days

37:41

and hours leading up to her

37:43

murder, she had cannabis, methadone, morphine,

37:46

diazepam, and possibly

37:49

temazepam in her system. However,

37:52

forensic scientists could not determine how

37:54

affected she was by the drugs

37:56

when she died. Okay. I've heard

37:58

of all of those except. for temazepam.

38:01

I'm assuming it's similar in

38:03

some way to diazepam because

38:06

it ends in Pam, but I never heard of

38:08

that one. But it is a lot of drugs.

38:10

It is. And I think some of

38:12

those just on their own, you know,

38:14

are pretty strong. But if you

38:16

mixed them all at the same time,

38:19

then you're looking at pretty serious

38:21

effects, I would think. Yeah,

38:23

pretty potent. I mean, we know why she was taking the methadone.

38:25

Yes. A woman whose name

38:27

was suppressed testified the mongrel

38:29

mob were all over Manchester

38:31

Street in Christchurch on the

38:33

night of December 18th,

38:36

2008. Gang members approached

38:38

her after she met with a client

38:40

and demanded $20 as

38:42

a tax. They said they owned

38:44

the street and she owed

38:47

them $20 per client. She

38:49

also testified that a sex worker named

38:51

Holly, who associated with the mongrel

38:53

mob, pulled up beside her in a

38:55

dark car with tinted windows and told

38:58

her to get in. The

39:00

witness refused saying, I thought if

39:02

I got in the car, no

39:04

one would see me again. She

39:06

might be right. I would say

39:08

that's a pretty good assumption. She

39:11

also testified she met the mob

39:13

guys four months before Mallory was

39:15

killed and knew Fawcett

39:17

by his gang name, Topdaw.

39:20

An anonymous witness who sold drugs

39:22

to Mallory described hearing a blood

39:25

curdling scream coming from the direction

39:27

of the gang pad on

39:30

the night of the murder. He said he

39:32

had known Mallory since 2006. He

39:35

provided her with drugs, mostly

39:37

morphine, until December 2008. He

39:40

and his partner lived about 50 meters

39:42

from the Galbraith Avenue property. They

39:44

heard a scream between 10 PM

39:47

and midnight on December

39:49

18th. It only lasted a few

39:51

seconds and it sounded like a

39:53

woman was being attacked. When

39:55

asked if he did anything about it, the witness

39:58

said, no, it wasn't in the case.

40:00

anything unusual for the area. Makes

40:02

you wonder, was that before they turned

40:04

up the music really loud or was a

40:07

screen just that loud that

40:09

it was louder than the music that they had playing?

40:12

Well, and it also makes

40:14

me think if this is not

40:16

unusual for the area, maybe

40:19

I need to relocate to a different

40:21

area. Yeah. Sounds like, uh, this

40:23

must be happening pretty frequently. Although

40:25

based on what he was into,

40:28

that might've been his

40:30

area of choice. Yeah. Maybe

40:32

it was good business. You mean where most

40:34

of his clients may have lived or, or

40:36

something like that. On March 3rd,

40:38

2014, Fawcett

40:41

told the judge that he would

40:43

not take the stand and would

40:45

not call any witnesses. Right.

40:47

Doesn't sound like much of a defense.

40:49

I understand him not taking the stand.

40:52

And I guess maybe he

40:55

doesn't have any defense witnesses

40:57

to call. Again, I

40:59

think that's part of the problem

41:01

when you represent yourself. Well,

41:04

I kind of had this thought that he's

41:06

got to be on the outs with the gang.

41:09

Right. By the time this trial

41:12

is taking place, he has said

41:14

some things, tried to incriminate at least

41:16

one gang member. So how's

41:19

he going to call any one

41:21

of the gang members to vouch for him?

41:23

They're probably not going to do it. I

41:25

don't know who else he would have thought to have

41:28

called to the stand maybe. Well, that's who he's

41:30

been running with for a long

41:33

period of time. Yeah. There is nobody

41:35

worth calling. A former mob

41:37

member was recalled to court to

41:39

be cross examined by Fawcett. Fawcett

41:42

told the judge, he wasn't happy with

41:44

how his assistant counsel

41:47

cross examined the witness and he

41:49

wanted the witness recalled saying, my

41:51

life is on the line and

41:53

in this witness's hand and he's

41:55

coming in and accusing me of

41:57

this. I did not say that to this.

42:00

earlier, the witness testified that Fawcett

42:02

told him he was at the

42:04

gang pad when Mallory was

42:07

killed and that he stabbed her once.

42:09

Fawcett denied making this confession.

42:12

When recalled, the witness

42:14

testified that Fawcett did make a

42:16

confession and that Fawcett showed

42:19

him court paperwork that supported his

42:21

story. The witness said, per

42:23

the New Zealand Herald, you also told

42:25

me your life was on the line

42:27

with the mongrel mob. You were

42:29

fearing for your own life what they

42:31

would do to you. What did I tell

42:33

you back then? Give them up. Fawcett

42:35

responded, if I knew who it was, I would

42:38

have put them up there all right. I've

42:41

got nothing to gain from the mongrel

42:43

mob. The witness stuck to his

42:45

claims and told the court that on the day

42:47

Mallory was found, they had a meeting at

42:49

the mob house. Fawcett freaked

42:51

out, stole a car and

42:54

disappeared. So that may have backfired

42:56

on him a little bit. I think it

42:58

majorly backfired. He wasn't

43:00

happy with the way that

43:02

his assistant counsel had

43:04

done the cross-examination, but sometimes

43:07

there's a reason you don't

43:09

ask certain questions. It's

43:11

because maybe you may

43:14

not know the answer and you're fearful

43:16

that the answer is not going to be good for

43:18

you. Yeah, or you can read

43:20

between the lines and see where it's headed. In

43:23

closing arguments, the prosecution alleged that

43:25

it took less than 20 minutes

43:27

for the mongrel mob to pick

43:29

Mallory up and drive her to

43:31

the gang pad where she was

43:34

attacked and murdered. They told the

43:36

jury that Fawcett was supposed to kill

43:38

Mallory because of her alleged death,

43:41

but he couldn't go through with it. During

43:43

his interviews, Fawcett said he was present

43:46

while others killed Mallory. In one interview,

43:48

he said he closed his eyes and

43:50

hit her with a metal pole.

43:53

So I mentioned it, right? He was

43:55

interviewed like five times over three years.

43:57

He said a lot of things. in

44:00

those interviews, much of which

44:03

was incredibly incriminating and not good for

44:05

him. And so it was

44:08

kind of strange to me that he

44:10

told the judge, I don't know why

44:13

I'm standing up here. I think you're standing

44:15

up here because you said all of this stuff.

44:18

Now, whether you were pressured to say it,

44:20

that's another matter. During his

44:22

closing argument, Fawcett called

44:25

the prosecution theory impossible. He told

44:27

the court, I stupidly

44:29

implicated myself into a serious

44:32

crime. I lied. People

44:34

lie for many things, but I

44:36

did not take part in this lady's

44:38

death. It's a big lie if

44:40

you lied. And to me, it doesn't

44:42

make sense why you would lie about

44:44

something like that. Yeah, this is

44:46

not, I didn't eat the last cookie lie.

44:49

This is, I was part of

44:52

a woman's death lie. He

44:55

tried to discredit the prosecution's

44:57

timeline. Investigators believe Mallory was

44:59

picked up at 10 43

45:01

PM. According to the police, it would

45:04

have taken six minutes to drive to

45:06

the gang path. Mallory was

45:08

probably dumped in the river around

45:10

10 59,

45:12

according to the prosecution, which

45:14

meant the gang only had about

45:17

10 minutes to rape and kill

45:19

Mallory and gives, I'll say

45:21

this, it's kind of disturbing to try

45:25

to analyze how

45:27

long it would have taken

45:29

to rape and kill this

45:31

woman. But obviously you have to do

45:34

it as part of this

45:36

case. Sure. 10 minutes is

45:38

not a lot of time, but

45:40

it could happen. Yes.

45:43

Fawcett said that he was never at

45:45

the gang pad and the prosecution's argument

45:47

was just a made up theory.

45:50

Finally, he said about the unknown

45:52

DNA profile known as male B

45:55

I've described other patched members

45:57

who seriously assaulted Ms. I'm

46:01

wanted by the mongrel mob. I'll

46:03

never protect Mel B. I've got

46:05

nothing to gain from it." On

46:08

March 10, 2014,

46:10

Maha Fawcett was found guilty of the

46:12

murder of Mallory Manning. That

46:15

day, the police confirmed the investigation

46:17

was still open. Other

46:19

members of the mongrel mob were named

46:22

during trial, but their names were suppressed

46:24

from the media. So

46:26

they find Fawcett guilty, but

46:28

they're not done. Yeah, they're saying, let's

46:30

get these other guys. Right. They

46:33

believe other people were involved. They're going to go

46:35

after them. Detective

46:38

Inspector Greg Williams said they

46:40

were continuing to gather evidence

46:42

related to the individual's name

46:44

during the trial. They still

46:46

did not have a match, a

46:48

DNA match, but investigators believed

46:51

Mel B was closely

46:53

associated with the Christchurch mongrel

46:56

mob or the wider

46:58

mongrel mob. Detective

47:01

Inspector Williams noted that a

47:03

main issue with the investigation was

47:05

the fact that the individuals involved

47:08

were gangsters and sex workers, two

47:10

groups of people who are typically

47:12

reluctant to speak to the police.

47:15

Well, that's true, right? That is true. They're not going

47:17

to want to just run to the police

47:19

and give them all this information. Now,

47:22

I understand why gang members,

47:24

gangsters wouldn't want to talk

47:26

to the police. If

47:28

sex work is legal in New Zealand,

47:30

though, I'm not exactly sure why

47:33

sex workers would be as

47:35

reluctant. They are over here

47:37

because technically they're doing something

47:39

that is illegal. On

47:42

April 30th, 2014, Maha

47:45

Fawcett was sentenced to life in jail

47:47

with a minimum non-parole period of 20

47:49

years. His

47:51

assistant counsel argued that he played

47:53

a minor role in the murder

47:56

and senior gang members were the ones who

47:58

organized the hit on the court. on Mallory.

48:01

Gang prospects would do what they were

48:03

told to do. Which is true

48:05

in a lot of gangs,

48:07

gang initiations. I would think in a

48:09

lot of scenarios, yes, that is true.

48:12

But even if he played a minor

48:14

role in the murder, that

48:16

would still mean he played a role in the murder.

48:19

During sentencing, a judge noted

48:21

that Fawcett started smoking marijuana

48:24

at age 8 and

48:26

using meth at age 14 a year

48:28

after his father died. Okay,

48:30

pretty young. Smoking weed at 8

48:33

and graduated to meth at

48:35

14. Muted. Outside court,

48:38

Mallory's former partner, Kent Gory, said

48:40

he would not be happy until

48:42

the rest of the gang members

48:44

were charged. He told the media

48:47

that he could name them,

48:49

but he wouldn't. He also said

48:51

he knew Fawcett growing up. He

48:53

described him as a wannabe who

48:55

wanted to fit in with anyone.

48:58

So even Kent was afraid to say the

49:00

names because he knew they would

49:03

probably come after him. Yeah, I

49:05

think if you knew who it was, you'd

49:08

have to be afraid because of

49:10

the gang's reach. Now I

49:13

don't even think I would tell the media that

49:15

I could name them. I wouldn't

49:17

either. Because I think you're putting somewhat of

49:19

a target on your back just by saying

49:21

that. Fawcett filed an

49:23

appeal in May 2014 in August 2015. Detective Senior

49:26

Sergeant Brian Archer told

49:31

the New Zealand Herald that their

49:33

investigation was hampered by the appeal,

49:36

which was not scheduled to be heard until

49:38

February 2016. On August 6, 2017, Fawcett's

49:40

conviction was quashed by

49:46

the Court of Appeal and a retrial

49:48

was ordered. That's a major hit to

49:50

the prosecution. Yeah, we don't have all

49:53

the details, but obviously the

49:56

Court of Appeal did not

49:58

believe that Based

50:00

on the trial record, he

50:03

should have been convicted. On October 25, 2021,

50:07

the murder charge against Maha

50:09

Fawcett was dismissed after the

50:11

court found that his

50:13

confessions were inadmissible. Fawcett was granted

50:15

a retrial for two main reasons,

50:18

which were not disclosed in 2021.

50:22

First, the court ruled that

50:24

his assistant counsel put forth

50:26

defenses that were inconsistent with

50:29

Fawcett's blanket denial of his

50:31

involvement, according to the news

50:33

outlet NZ Stuff. Fawcett's

50:36

confession was not admissible because

50:38

he meets the criteria for

50:41

fetal alcohol spectrum disorder and

50:43

has a low IQ. This information

50:45

was not presented to the high

50:48

court at trial. Experts found

50:50

that his IQ is in the

50:52

low to normal range, but test

50:55

results show extreme variability of function.

50:57

He also has weak verbal reasoning

51:00

skills and memory deficits, and

51:02

he's prone to lie to

51:04

fill memory gaps. He

51:06

has also been labeled a very

51:08

suggestible person. Well, this is

51:11

definitely a huge problem in

51:13

this case. Well, I

51:15

think we're now starting

51:17

to maybe get to

51:19

the root of why

51:22

they were able to get him to

51:24

say certain things. You know, if that

51:26

is what happened, as he has claimed,

51:29

I think a person with a

51:31

low IQ who's very suggestible

51:33

and is prone to

51:35

lie to fill memory gaps is

51:38

the type of person that

51:40

could possibly make a false confession or

51:42

a series of false confessions. And

51:45

that same person shouldn't be

51:47

representing himself during his murder trial.

51:50

No, absolutely not. But

51:52

does it even speak to, you know,

51:55

his level of understanding that

51:58

he even thought that was a bad thing? a good idea to

52:01

represent himself. His

52:03

lawyer, Chris Stevenson, told the court

52:05

that the police had indications. Fawcett

52:08

was cognitively impaired and

52:11

did not look into it at the beginning.

52:14

Fawcett declined to make a comment to the

52:16

press after his court hearing, but his lawyer

52:18

said per the New Zealand Herald, Mr.

52:20

Fawcett always maintained that he had nothing

52:23

to do with the really

52:25

terrible and tragic killing of

52:27

Mallory Manning. His trial

52:29

miscarried, and he had around

52:31

a decade of his life taken away from

52:33

him, including years in

52:35

jail, so he's just incredibly

52:38

relieved and happy now it's

52:40

over that the high court

52:42

judge has dismissed the case. He

52:44

said to me, I can finally sleep.

52:47

Fifteen years later, male B

52:49

has still not been identified.

52:52

In the fall of 2023, it was

52:55

reported that New Zealand investigators

52:57

would use forensic genetic genealogy

53:00

to try to solve two high profile

53:02

murder cases, one of

53:04

which was the murder of Mallory Manning.

53:07

Now, in the reporting, it called

53:10

forensic genetic genealogy a

53:13

controversial investigative tool,

53:16

but it didn't elaborate. So

53:18

I wasn't sure what was

53:20

so controversial about it.

53:23

Now there has been, and maybe this is

53:25

what they're talking about, controversy

53:28

surrounding privacy. Yeah,

53:31

obtaining that information. Obtaining that

53:33

information, but other than

53:36

that, I don't know what would

53:38

be controversial about it. I

53:40

think it's a great tool. Now I

53:43

understand not everybody wants

53:45

their DNA to be

53:48

used willy-nilly, but my understanding

53:51

is a lot of that has been shut

53:53

down, I thought, at least here

53:55

in the state. So I'm not sure how it

53:57

is elsewhere. 2023

54:00

the privacy commissioner asked the police

54:03

to pause further use until

54:05

there is legislative reform and

54:07

so maybe that does speak to Maybe

54:10

they still have some issues with privacy over

54:13

here Maybe we do here as well that

54:15

I'm just not thinking about but I thought

54:17

they had closed a lot of that

54:19

down making it

54:21

more voluntary as opposed

54:24

to Agencies just

54:26

being able to go to

54:28

ancestry.com or 23andme and and

54:31

look through everything Yeah,

54:33

I think when you go to one of those

54:35

sites and do your DNA Testing

54:39

one of the questions is will you

54:41

allow or do you want

54:43

this to be part of that? Yeah, yes

54:45

or no, and then at that point they're

54:47

allow it, but I get it for

54:49

many it still may be Controversial

54:52

and in that respect,

54:54

but it has been a very useful tool Absolutely

54:57

in solving a number of cases probably

54:59

critical for this one. I think this

55:02

is a perfect

55:04

example of a case

55:06

that could definitely benefit from Forensic

55:10

genetic genealogy. I mean you're still

55:12

relying on even

55:14

finding a family member in In

55:17

one of the databases, but I

55:19

do think if investigators are finally allowed

55:21

to use it It's very

55:24

possible that Mellory's murder could finally be solved

55:26

Yeah, I hope it is but you know

55:28

as we wrap this one up this

55:31

one man It just floored me

55:33

because you have this

55:36

woman murdered not just murdered

55:38

I mean she was raped

55:40

and and beaten It

55:43

was a really gruesome Attack

55:45

right and then police

55:47

really zero in right on

55:49

this faucet guy Imagine

55:52

being interviewed over

55:54

like six years Multiple

55:56

times over six years kind

55:58

of hard not to think that they they

56:00

have their eye on you. Yeah. But

56:03

also when you confess early on. Well,

56:06

you're gonna put that radar on you. Yes. Now

56:09

the question is, was he pressured

56:12

to confess? Or

56:15

was his IQ low enough? Did

56:19

he have some issues that

56:21

kinda made him not understand

56:24

or try to fill in the gaps to

56:26

help police? You know, it doesn't always

56:28

have to be like a

56:31

coercive situation. You

56:33

can have people who think

56:35

they're trying to help the police

56:37

but are actually hurting themselves at

56:39

the same time. Yeah, because he

56:41

had information, you know, about

56:44

what happened. He was part of the

56:46

gang. Yeah, it just, according to

56:48

him, it wasn't him that did it.

56:51

He was there, but it wasn't him that did

56:53

all this stuff. But he did say

56:55

he did it at

56:57

certain points. So we just

57:00

don't know exactly

57:02

how that confession went down. But

57:05

during the whole thing, what

57:07

bothered me was the unidentified

57:09

scene. Right. Now, does

57:12

that in and of itself mean that

57:14

he couldn't have been involved? And I

57:16

would say, no, you could have multiple

57:18

people involved in the rape.

57:21

Sure. You could have

57:23

had some wearing condoms,

57:25

some not wearing condoms. I mean, I don't

57:27

wanna get graphic, but you could have a

57:30

number of different scenarios. I mean, I think you might

57:32

be able to prove who raped her.

57:34

Will you be able to prove who killed her? I

57:37

don't know. I think once you

57:39

can lock down on who raped her, you can

57:42

use that as leverage to find out

57:44

who the killer was. Yeah, and that's maybe how it

57:46

will ultimately go down, but we'll have to keep

57:49

an eye on it. But that's

57:51

it for our episode on Mallory Manning. We've

57:53

got some voicemails, Gibbs. You wanna check those

57:55

out? Yeah, let's hear them. Hey,

57:57

Mike and Tarantino, Gibbs. Listen

58:01

fellas, I want to

58:03

let you guys know that I

58:05

commend you on your podcast. It

58:08

is amazing the way that you guys

58:10

elaborate. This

58:12

is Kyle out of Spokane by the way. But

58:16

the way that you guys have gone from

58:19

the beginning to the end, you guys have

58:21

done such an amazing job. Only

58:26

certain people can touch notes

58:30

like that and

58:32

you really chime on them. So

58:34

I just want to say that from

58:37

where you started and where you are

58:39

now, you guys have come a long

58:41

way and I appreciate

58:43

you. So hey,

58:46

shout out to TCAT. All

58:49

right, appreciate the voicemail, appreciate the nice words.

58:51

Yeah, it means a lot to us. It

58:54

really does. Thank you, man. He

58:56

called you Tarantino, he knows. album,

58:59

Apple Watch episode and you were saying that you've been to

59:01

Washington and that, you know, is it Mountaineau in Washington?

59:03

No, Mountaineau is in Oregon. Mountaineau, which is much

59:05

bigger, we can see Mountaineau from

59:07

back in Washington, Adam, which

59:15

is the one I'm next to and

59:17

Mountaineau, from Mountaineau. Mountaineau,

59:26

which is the one

59:29

I'm next to and Mountaineau, from

59:32

Mountaineau, is the one right in our

59:34

backyard in Oregon side. So, we're on

59:36

the porch, so it's like a little

59:38

bit of a outdoor

59:40

playland. So, um,

59:43

anyway, side of the backyard. I

59:45

know I can always count on you guys

59:47

for a great laugh. Love you guys. Keep

59:50

your eyes on second. Bye. Hey,

59:53

our mountain's bigger than your mountain. You

59:55

know what you can always count on?

59:58

Is that we will mess up... something up.

1:00:00

That is for sure a

1:00:03

given. My knowledge of Northwest

1:00:06

geography is

1:00:08

absolutely atrocious. I've never been

1:00:11

anywhere up there. I've never been, oh,

1:00:15

except I guess I've been to Oregon and I went up

1:00:17

Mount Hood, right? But I was little. And so as an

1:00:19

adult, I've never

1:00:23

been to the Northwest. I think your geography probably

1:00:25

sucks all the way around. Oh, actually I went

1:00:27

to Seattle one time. You didn't even know. I

1:00:30

don't even remember where you've been. I was younger

1:00:32

than two. I did go to the fish market.

1:00:34

I remember because they were throwing the fish. Oh,

1:00:37

this is awesome. I need to

1:00:39

spend more time in the Northwest. Yeah. Well,

1:00:41

you definitely don't know your mountains. I definitely

1:00:43

don't know my mountains. Yeah. At

1:00:46

all. But we know where the big ones

1:00:48

are. Yeah, that is true. But yeah,

1:00:50

we are not going to get everything right.

1:00:52

That is for sure. At least she's having

1:00:54

fun. She's down in that play land, the

1:00:57

gorge. Are you familiar with this gorge?

1:01:00

I'm familiar with gorges. Just

1:01:02

gorges in general? Yeah, there's gorges over here, over

1:01:04

there, you know, and that's a lot of fun

1:01:06

when you're in the gorge. Do you remember gorgeous,

1:01:08

George? That's a different gorge. All

1:01:11

right, buddy, on that note, we got to get

1:01:13

out of here. That is it for another episode

1:01:16

of True Crime All the Time Unsolved. So for

1:01:18

Mike, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

1:01:33

Hold on

1:01:36

to your jingle

1:01:39

bells. Pluto

1:01:58

TV has all your holiday. for

1:02:00

free. Enjoy our season's greetings

1:02:03

category with nine holiday channels including

1:02:05

holiday movie favorites by Lifetime, Best

1:02:07

of Fireplace, Holiday Lights, and Hallmark

1:02:09

Movies and more. Download the Pluto

1:02:11

TV app on all your favorite

1:02:13

devices and start streaming holiday favorites

1:02:15

on live channels and on demand

1:02:17

with thousands of free movies and

1:02:20

TV shows. Pluto TV is your

1:02:22

home for the holidays. Pluto TV.

1:02:24

Stream now. Pay never.