0:04

Hi, everyone. This is Jillian with Court Junkie.

0:07

Court Junkie is a true crime podcast that

0:09

covers court cases and criminal trials

0:12

using audio clips and interviews with people

0:14

close to the cases. Court Junkie is

0:16

available on Apple Podcasts and

0:18

podcastone.com.

0:32

Hello,

0:57

everyone, and welcome to episode three

1:00

three, three Oh eight of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved podcast.

1:02

I'm Mike Ferguson. And Jimmy,

1:07

how are you? I'm doing good, man. How about About

1:09

you? I'm doing very rest of my family

1:12

is in Florida on vacation. So,

1:14

I'm here by

1:16

myself all week. Just chilling, watching movies

1:18

and playing games and researching watching

1:21

movies and playing games and researching podcasts.

1:23

That's

1:23

the life. That's my life for Подсказ как это жизнь. Amen

1:25

Yes door-dashing I

1:29

did make some chili spaghetti the other night. You

1:32

did? Yeah, that's one of my favorites. Made

1:34

it yourself? Well, I used the canned skyline.

1:37

Okay. And then just make my own spaghetti.

1:39

So you boiled some pasta? I boiled pasta.

1:42

You heat up the skyline and pour the skyline

1:44

on and then pour some shredded cheese on.

1:47

Oh, that's good stuff. That's probably a lot

1:49

cheaper than getting delivered. Or

1:52

even

1:52

going there. Sure. I

1:54

actually like it better to be honest with you. All right,

1:56

let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had

1:58

Ying and Zandro. Tugas. What's

2:01

up Tugas? Cass in the okay. There's the okay.

2:04

Angie Killen. Hey, thank you Killen. Your

2:06

mom's phone. Hey mom.

2:08

Karen Watkins. What's up Watkins. Debbie

2:10

Thornley. There's Thornley. John McCarthy.

2:13

Hey McCarthy. Laura Nicole Welsh. Thank

2:16

you Welsh. Micheline Kruger. Hey

2:18

Kruger. Alyssa Alvalar. AA.

2:20

Okay. Yeah. Midian

2:23

Corono. What's going on Corono? Ashley

2:25

Oldfield. Oh there's good old

2:28

Oldfield. Caroline B. What's

2:31

up B? Laurel Rickard. Hey Rickard.

2:34

Christina Lee. Appreciate that Lee. Alyssa

2:36

McBratney. Mc McBratney. Derek Chmielewski.

2:39

Chmielewski. Yeah.

2:40

I

2:44

don't know if I've gotten that one right at

2:46

all. Yeah. Mandy Stocker.

2:49

Hey Stocker. And last but not least Erica

2:51

Vannevar jumped out at our highest level. Wow

2:53

appreciate a lot. Yeah. Vannevar.

2:56

Definitely. And if we go back into

2:58

the vault. This week we selected Jess

3:00

Plant. Thank you Plant. Yeah. Appreciate

3:03

all the support we get. We had a great PayPal donation

3:05

from Ann Kelly. Oh thank you Ann

3:08

Kelly.

3:09

Gibbs right now on True Crime All the Time. We

3:11

have an episode out on William Mansfield

3:13

Jr. He's a serial killer

3:16

responsible for the deaths of at

3:19

least five women and girls.

3:21

But there's a lot of twists and turns in

3:24

this episode. You know Junior's

3:26

a bad guy. His

3:29

brother, his mother, I mean there's just

3:31

there's suspicion on the part

3:34

of a number of people and what

3:36

did they know? How could they not have known?

3:39

So definitely check that out.

3:41

All right buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode

3:43

of True Crime All the Time on Sol? I'm ready. We're

3:46

talking about the Brown family disappearance.

3:49

In the summer of 1985, the

3:52

entire Brown family disappeared

3:54

from their home in Port St. Lucie,

3:57

Florida.

3:58

The Brown family excluding the

4:00

father James have been missing for

4:02

more than 30 years, despite

4:04

the fact that James

4:07

has confessed to their murders. So

4:10

a little different for an unsolved.

4:12

It is. But I think people will see kind of

4:15

what's going on as the case unfolds.

4:18

Sometimes you can call it a unresolved.

4:20

Yeah, more unresolved than unsolved. Carolyn

4:23

Brown was born on September 6th, 1957. She

4:27

was 27 years old when she disappeared.

4:30

Carolyn would be 65 if

4:33

she were still alive today. Carolyn

4:35

was married to James Michael Brown

4:38

for 10 years. James in 1985

4:40

was 37 years old. So 10

4:43

years older than Carolyn at

4:46

one point, they both worked as teachers

4:48

and lived in Port St. Lucy, Florida.

4:51

James Brown earned a master's

4:53

degree in child guidance

4:56

from Florida Atlantic university

4:59

and Florida Atlantic university has, has

5:01

been in the news big time lately. Um, their

5:04

men's basketball team made the final four,

5:06

I think as a, I don't know

5:08

what seed they were. They were very high seed.

5:11

I don't even know if they had ever won a game in the

5:13

tournament before. Really? And they made

5:15

it to the final four. It was kind of amazing. And

5:18

they lost

5:19

on a last second shot to go to

5:21

the final. So they might've went the whole way. Yeah,

5:23

they could have, but they didn't.

5:25

James and Carolyn had three children.

5:27

Shakita Michelle Brown was born

5:30

on December 20th, 1974. Shakita

5:33

was just 10 when she disappeared.

5:36

She would be 48 years old if she

5:38

were still alive today. Barry

5:40

Michael Brown was born on December 29th, 1978. Barry

5:44

was six when he went missing. He'd

5:46

be 44 if he were alive

5:49

today. Brandon Mitchell Brown

5:51

was born on December 19th in 1983.

5:54

Brandon was just two years old when

5:56

he went missing. He'd be 39 if

5:59

he were still alive. So there's a couple

6:01

of things that jump out at me about this. You

6:03

know, first, all three children

6:06

were born

6:07

very close on

6:10

the same date in December.

6:12

Yeah. So, you know, that

6:14

jumped out at me. All December babies. From

6:17

the 19th to the 29th, you're

6:19

spending a boatload of money, right,

6:22

on birthday presents and you have Christmas

6:25

kind of sandwiched smack dab in

6:27

the middle of it. Yeah. Budget

6:29

wise, December is a very

6:32

heavy month. Yeah, a lot of birthdays

6:34

and Christmases. Yeah, a lot of presents.

6:37

And then the second thing, obviously,

6:39

that jumped out at me is we're talking about

6:41

three young kids here.

6:44

Brandon was only two years old. Barry

6:46

was six, Shakita was 10. According

6:49

to the St. Lucie News

6:52

Tribune, James Brown once

6:54

taught social studies at Lincoln Park

6:56

Middle School.

6:57

James worked at Lincoln Park for the last 10

7:00

a year.

7:01

The school personnel director described

7:03

him as a very mild mannered

7:06

individual. Carolyn Brown

7:08

taught at Chester A. Moore Elementary

7:11

School. Carolyn was described as a

7:13

very conscientious teacher who

7:15

makes home visits to children.

7:18

So nothing unexpected being said about

7:20

them. No, I mean, we're not hearing

7:22

that people had a problem

7:24

with them. They thought they were bad teachers,

7:27

bad humans, nothing like that.

7:29

You know, I do think a very mild mannered

7:32

individual is kind of a strange quote.

7:35

I don't know when that came out though. Because

7:38

obviously we're gonna learn more about

7:40

James Brown as we go along.

7:43

The Brown family had been renting a house

7:45

in Port St. Lucie for about four

7:48

years.

7:48

The police characterized the family

7:51

as well educated.

7:53

Their acquaintances described them as loners.

7:56

One neighbor told the St. Lucie News Tribune,

7:58

they never socialized too much. much. I never

8:01

saw anyone go to their house.

8:03

Okay. You could make that

8:06

same comment, both

8:08

of them really about my wife and

8:10

I. I was getting ready to say that sounds

8:12

like your house. Yeah. I

8:14

mean, we're both fairly well educated.

8:17

My wife, more so than, than I am, I

8:19

wouldn't call us loners. We just don't

8:22

go out a ton and

8:24

we don't have a ton of people over at our house.

8:26

We're not throwing big bashes where, you know,

8:28

cars are parked all up

8:30

and down the street. That's not your thing. We just

8:33

kind of keep to ourselves. We do our own thing.

8:35

I'm lucky. I'm lucky you let me in

8:37

here. Now I will say there's a lot of people that come

8:39

to the house because the amount of stuff

8:42

that my wife orders online, they

8:44

wear uniforms. They do. And

8:46

they're easily recognized.

8:48

James Brown's teaching certificate

8:51

was suspended in 1983 when he pleaded no contest

8:55

to attempted aggravated child

8:57

abuse against his daughter and was sentenced

9:00

to three years of probation.

9:02

Shakita's teachers notified welfare

9:05

workers that she had welts and bruises

9:07

on her body. She was put

9:09

into the temporary care of the state

9:11

division of youth services after

9:14

she told authorities her father was the one

9:16

who caused welts and bruises.

9:19

Okay. That doesn't sound good.

9:21

I don't know to what extent, you know,

9:23

these welts, these bruises showed up.

9:27

It must have been pretty extensive for

9:30

the teachers to be concerned to the point where,

9:33

you know, they would call child

9:36

services. Now in 1983,

9:38

a lot of us got spanked

9:40

sometimes with belts. We did.

9:42

I've said it before. I'm not saying it's right. I'm

9:45

saying that's what happened.

9:47

This does not sound like that

9:49

to me. This sounds like it went way

9:52

beyond any type of

9:54

normal discipline, even

9:56

as it happened back in 1983. Well, it

9:58

had to be. I mean, for the. courts to give him

10:00

a three year probation sentence.

10:04

And on top of that, he loses his teacher's

10:07

license for three years. That's pretty

10:09

substantial. Well, you know, we said

10:11

three years probation, but according to

10:13

the St. Lucie News Tribune, his

10:16

probation ended in December, 1984.

10:18

So it sounds like it was ended

10:21

early, according to the paper. In

10:24

June of 1984, James started a job as

10:27

an interim 4-H agent. At

10:30

the St. Lucie County Agricultural

10:32

Extension Office, the grant supporting

10:35

this program expired after a year, and

10:37

he was unemployed again.

10:39

In April of 1985, James applied for a job

10:43

as a probation officer in Fort Pierce. He

10:45

was interviewed, but not hired. Think

10:48

it'd be kind of hard to be a probation officer.

10:51

When you just came off probation yourself. Yeah.

10:53

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem like

10:56

that would be a smart move to interview

10:58

for that job.

11:00

They're gonna see your record.

11:02

They're gonna know that you

11:04

recently were on probation. They're

11:06

gonna say, you know what? Maybe he thought, well,

11:08

I have experience. Well, maybe. I don't

11:10

know. Maybe he said, you know what? I'm

11:13

an educator. I've been through that before. I've got some lessons

11:15

learned. I'm gonna share them with whoever

11:18

I represent as their officer.

11:20

But I could also see why he was not hired. Yeah.

11:22

Carolyn Brown was scheduled to come

11:24

to work on August 18th, 1985 to prepare for the start of

11:29

the new school year.

11:31

And this is something I'm very familiar

11:33

with, right? My wife's a teacher. Every

11:36

year in the fall, things change

11:39

as the school year approaches. She

11:41

has to go into schools. You gotta get the room

11:43

ready. You gotta start

11:45

writing lesson plans. Right. You

11:48

know, all that good stuff. Start buying all those products.

11:50

Yeah. Buying stuff

11:52

out of her own pocket. On August

11:54

16th, 1985, the police announced

11:56

that

11:58

the Brown family.

11:59

not been seen since sometime

12:03

in mid July. Carolyn's mother,

12:05

Rosa Walker told the police that her

12:07

daughter regularly called her, but

12:10

those calls stopped around July 15.

12:13

And I think Gibbs, this is where we get into the area

12:16

of patterns. They show

12:18

up quite a lot in these unsolved

12:21

cases. You know, if Carolyn

12:24

called her mom all

12:26

the time on a regular basis, and

12:28

then all of a sudden her mom stops getting

12:30

those calls, that's out of the ordinary.

12:33

That's breaking a pattern. I mean,

12:35

it's almost a month that has went by

12:37

since their last communication. Now you

12:40

and I don't always talk during

12:42

the week, right? In between recordings,

12:45

unless we have something that we really need to

12:47

discuss. We don't always talk. Well, I

12:49

can't get past your

12:51

virtual assistant. That is

12:53

true. So if

12:55

I didn't hear from you during the week,

12:58

I wouldn't think anything of it. Right. But

13:00

if you don't show up to record when we've

13:02

said we're going to, then

13:04

obviously that's a cause for

13:06

concern because you're breaking the pattern. Exactly. Yeah.

13:09

You might be a little alarmed. I think

13:11

I would be very alarmed.

13:13

Rosa Walker contacted the police

13:15

in early August and asked them to

13:17

do a welfare check. The family left

13:19

a carton of milk

13:20

on the counter, catch up on

13:23

the stove and abandon

13:25

their pet hamster in its cage.

13:28

Dresses were hung over open doors. Clothing

13:30

was stuffed in boxes inside a closet.

13:33

The garage door handle was in the open

13:36

position.

13:37

A light was left on in the bathroom

13:39

and the thermostat was set to 75 degrees.

13:43

All

13:43

right. So a couple of things to discuss. Yeah.

13:46

Um, 75 seems pretty high to me for

13:49

Florida, but Florida, you know, maybe not. Maybe,

13:51

maybe they liked it hot. I don't know what

13:54

really jumps out at me above

13:57

all else is the hamster, you

13:59

know. My daughters both had

14:02

hamsters. They love

14:04

them so much. They took care of them. They

14:06

would never have just gone

14:09

off for a long period of time and

14:12

either not taken the hamster or

14:14

put something in place for someone

14:17

to take care of them. Yeah, for sure.

14:19

Neighbors first noticed something was wrong

14:22

when they saw that the grass was overgrown

14:24

in the Browns front yard. They also

14:26

noticed that they hadn't seen the children

14:29

in a while. So again, we're talking about

14:31

patterns, right? The grass

14:33

is cut every so often. Now it's not.

14:35

And now it's not the children play out

14:38

in the yard all the time. Now we don't

14:40

see them. And now we haven't seen.

14:41

According to the St. Lucy news Tribune,

14:44

Corporal Charles Johnson said during

14:46

an August 16th press conference, we

14:49

found the house to be unlocked and windows

14:51

open

14:52

indicating they had laughed abruptly.

14:55

The refrigerator was completely full of

14:57

food. Clothing was in place in

14:59

the closets. There was a hamster in

15:01

the dining room in a cage.

15:03

It was dead.

15:04

So, you know, that's sad. It is

15:06

sad for anybody who's had a pet

15:08

like that. Now I get flack

15:10

sometimes for talking about a

15:13

full refrigerator

15:14

or somebody

15:16

going to the grocery and

15:18

buying a whole bunch of food

15:21

and then voluntarily

15:24

disappearing the next day. Yeah. Cause

15:26

my thought is always, why would you do that?

15:28

If you knew you were going to leave. Well, same here. I

15:31

think the same thing. Now

15:33

some people have given me grief over that

15:35

saying, well, it doesn't mean that. And I'm not

15:37

saying it means it every time. I'm

15:39

just saying to me, it doesn't make a lot

15:41

of sense. Now, if you're saying they

15:43

left abruptly, then

15:45

there's really not much

15:47

to read into a full refrigerator food.

15:50

No, but if it's planned, then

15:52

you would question it. Yeah. Why would you spend the money?

15:54

Why would you spend your time unless

15:56

you just want to appear

15:59

normal to everybody around you before

16:01

you decide to go missing.

16:04

Yeah, and if it was planned and

16:06

this was not, oh, we got to get out of

16:08

the house right this second, then you

16:10

would think you locked the door,

16:12

you packed some clothes. So I think

16:14

they're making an issue out of the

16:16

fact that all of the clothing is in

16:19

the closets, obviously the

16:21

hamster, which we talked about.

16:23

One of the family's cars was found at a

16:25

local repair shop.

16:26

It had been there since July. The

16:29

other vehicle, a 1981 Buick

16:31

Skylark

16:32

was missing.

16:33

According to the St. Lucie News Tribune,

16:36

on August 15th, James Brown

16:38

called a female friend from a payphone

16:41

outside a Jacksonville motel.

16:44

James told his friend he had left and

16:48

was on his way to an overseas job.

16:50

He told her that the house was unlocked

16:53

and she could take anything she wanted.

16:55

He also said he had his sons Barry and

16:57

Brandon with him when she asked

16:59

about Carolyn and Shakita.

17:01

James said they were quote, out

17:04

there.

17:05

And I don't know if you're this friend,

17:07

how you take that.

17:08

Yeah, I wouldn't know how to take it either. They

17:11

were out there. Out there. Being

17:13

out there somewhere, but I don't know. Right.

17:16

Where? Or out there where I plan on

17:18

going ahead

17:19

of time. I don't know.

17:21

Well, and I think you also have to kind

17:24

of analyze the, hey, the house

17:26

is unlocked. You can take anything you want.

17:29

Well,

17:29

why is it that I can do that?

17:32

Yeah. Why can I just take anything I want?

17:34

Nobody's planning on coming back. Your

17:36

wife doesn't want this stuff. You're kidding.

17:38

You know what I'm saying? That whole conversation

17:41

doesn't make sense. And obviously it's going to be analyzed.

17:44

Yeah, I think it has to. Initially

17:46

the police did not treat the disappearance

17:49

as a criminal case. According

17:51

to the St. Lucie News Tribune, police

17:53

chief O H Schleselman

17:56

said on August 17th, 1985, we've

17:59

no idea.

17:59

what happened. There's an absence

18:02

of everything. The only indicator

18:04

we have is the father's phone call where

18:07

he indicated he and the boys were in Jacksonville

18:10

and he was leaving. As for the whereabouts

18:12

of the mother and daughter, there isn't

18:15

even speculation. Detective

18:17

H.W. Schmull said, we're

18:19

just pursuing leads as they become

18:21

available to us. It was

18:24

the suspicious manner in which the family

18:26

left the house. The parents appear to

18:28

be well educated and

18:30

responsible financially, medically,

18:33

and in their personal lives. There's

18:35

no indication of substance abuse. The

18:38

way they left the house and have had no

18:40

contacts with the family network,

18:43

except for one call,

18:44

is strange.

18:46

Detective Schmull said that they

18:48

would know more on the 18th

18:50

when Carolyn was supposed to show up for

18:52

work. If she didn't,

18:54

they planned to shift into high gear.

18:57

Well, I understand what he's saying. Look, this is

18:59

a family where it looks

19:01

like the spouses have decided to

19:04

go in different directions. He's

19:06

taken the boys

19:07

with them and she's taken

19:10

their daughter. We can't confirm because

19:12

we haven't talked to her, but we don't

19:14

see a reason to pursue this

19:16

at this time. But the next day, if

19:19

she doesn't show up for work, that

19:21

changes things. Yeah. Now the narrative has changed,

19:23

right? I like how they say we got to shift

19:25

it into high gear. From what? Low

19:28

gear? Yeah. Right now we're in low gear. We're in low

19:30

gear.

19:31

According to the St. Lucie News Tribune,

19:34

on August 21st, the Port St.

19:36

Lucie police held a second press

19:38

conference. The police said they were cutting

19:40

back on the investigation until

19:43

they got solid leads. So what happened

19:45

to the

19:46

shift in high gear?

19:47

Well, if they did shift, it

19:50

was for only what? Two or three days.

19:52

Because obviously Carolyn

19:55

didn't show up for work on

19:57

the 18th.

19:58

That was what was supposed

19:59

to cause the shift,

20:01

now by the 21st, they're saying, hey, we're

20:03

cutting back. Yeah. Because

20:06

we don't have any leads, and until we get some,

20:08

there's

20:08

not much we can do.

20:10

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law.

21:11

The police displayed cut up credit cards

21:14

and identification found during a search

21:16

of the house on the 21st,

21:18

a purse and glasses believed to belong

21:20

to Carolyn were also found.

21:22

According to the Charlie Project,

21:24

one of the rooms in the house had a fresh

21:26

coat of paint,

21:28

which was covering up blood stains

21:30

on the wall.

21:31

Okay, so now we've

21:33

got information that is leading us in

21:35

a completely different direction. Yeah,

21:38

I think your thought process

21:40

has changed. Right, from they left

21:44

either together separately, whatever

21:46

it was to go do something.

21:49

They don't have to tell anybody where they're going

21:51

to

21:52

something very bad possibly happened

21:54

inside this house.

21:56

During the search, the police found a receipt

21:58

for a gun dated.

21:59

June 21st, the receipt

22:02

indicated that James Brown purchased

22:04

a .22 caliber semi-automatic

22:07

pistol

22:08

in a box of long rifle rounds.

22:12

The gun was not found in the house.

22:14

So obviously Gibbs police have to

22:16

think that

22:17

the purchase of this gun, the timing

22:20

of it is questionable,

22:23

suspicious. Oh, no,

22:25

the way around it, right? He bought the gun

22:27

towards the end of June and they haven't been seen since

22:30

July. Right. Less than

22:32

a month before

22:33

everybody's gone missing and

22:35

the gun's not found in the house. The

22:38

police were unable to get a search warrant. So they

22:40

had to canvas the home under the suspicion

22:43

of the executive vice president of

22:45

the company that managed the

22:48

rental.

22:48

An assistant state attorney denied

22:50

a request for a search warrant because the

22:53

police didn't have evidence that a crime

22:55

was committed by James or Carolyn

22:57

Brown.

22:58

The Browns started renting their house

23:01

in August of 1982. The

23:03

family always paid their rent on time. The

23:06

company representative noted they

23:08

usually kept the house clean, but it was

23:10

messier than normal during the search.

23:13

Their lease expired on August 15th, 1985.

23:17

The Realty Company started eviction proceedings

23:20

against the family for failure to pay

23:22

rent.

23:23

Well, they're not going to pay rent because they're not there anymore. But

23:25

the company wants to

23:27

get paid. So they want to

23:29

be able to rent it someone else. All of that

23:31

makes sense. On August 23rd,

23:34

the Savannah, Georgia police announced

23:36

that the family car, the 1981 Buick Skylark

23:40

had been found in a parking lot

23:42

near the Oglethorpe Mall. The

23:45

car was seen on July 18th.

23:47

Police at a nearby carpet store called

23:50

the police after noticing that the car

23:52

didn't have a license plate and

23:54

the keys were still in the ignition.

23:56

There was $30 in cash and the glove compartment.

24:00

more money inside a change purse, a

24:02

Bible, plain white t-shirts,

24:05

a small notebook, and a tennis racket

24:07

and tennis balls in the car. It

24:09

appeared that the trunk had been pried open

24:12

recently.

24:13

Detective Steve Hood from the Savannah

24:16

PD said that there was fresh

24:18

damage to the car

24:19

and that the case was unusual

24:21

because most stolen cars didn't

24:24

have money left behind

24:25

and people typically choose to abandon

24:27

cars in remote areas.

24:30

I mean, that's a good point. Someone stole this

24:32

car. Why would there be money in the glove compartment,

24:35

money in a change purse?

24:37

Yeah, most thieves are gonna rifle through the

24:39

car, take anything

24:42

of value. They're already stealing the

24:44

car. So why not

24:46

steal anything of value inside it?

24:48

And why would they dump the car at that location

24:50

versus

24:51

maybe a location where the car won't be

24:53

found right away and

24:56

maybe they don't have to worry about

24:58

being seen dumping the car? Why?

25:01

I think there's two things. I think you're saying them both.

25:04

You're taking in a big chance

25:06

dumping a car in a parking

25:08

lot, a chance of being seen. I

25:11

don't know if they would have had security cameras

25:13

there at that point in time, but maybe.

25:16

Maybe. So you're taking a couple

25:18

of different chances that you really wouldn't

25:20

have to.

25:21

I'm sure you can find an area in Georgia

25:23

that's rural and

25:25

just dumped the car somewhere where nobody would see.

25:28

Detective Hood identified the owners

25:30

of the car using the VIN and

25:33

sent a letter to the family, notifying

25:35

them their car had been found.

25:37

However, the Browns' mail

25:39

was routed to Rosa Walker's home.

25:41

She received the letter in August and notified

25:44

the local police.

25:45

So, I mean, talking about

25:47

Rosa, Carolyn's mom, she's

25:50

gotta be worried out of her mind. Oh. Already.

25:54

Now she gets this letter

25:56

about the car. But yeah, she gets

25:58

this letter in the mail about the car. She's

26:00

got to be freaking out because where's her daughter?

26:02

Where's her grandkids? She hasn't talked

26:04

to them. She hasn't heard from them and in a

26:07

number of months James Brown

26:09

was found at a public shelter in

26:12

Savannah, Georgia on the morning of September

26:14

11th

26:16

1985 a worker for the shelter called the police

26:18

when she saw Brown's picture in

26:20

a newspaper article About the missing

26:23

family

26:23

the police reportedly searched for bodies

26:26

in Palm Beach County that same day

26:28

And according to the st. Lucie news Tribune

26:31

the new developments came from disclosures

26:34

made by James Brown, but

26:36

authorities were vague

26:38

about what information he disclosed

26:41

Port st. Lucie police corporal Chuck

26:43

Johnson said the Savannah

26:45

police gave him some Information

26:48

to our investigation of an extremely

26:51

sensitive nature which we can neither

26:53

confirm nor deny at this time

26:55

Brown has referred to members of his family

26:58

We don't know if he's telling the

27:00

truth about them or not

27:02

So as happens a lot the police aren't

27:05

you know giving out a ton of information? But

27:07

what's what a strange turn of events? Right

27:10

the family goes missing

27:12

the car is found in Savannah, Georgia All

27:15

of a sudden the dad James

27:17

Brown

27:18

is found at a public shelter in Savannah,

27:21

Georgia

27:22

and apparently he starts

27:24

Telling police what happened to his family.

27:26

They just won't give the information out,

27:29

but

27:29

I think when you say Extremely

27:31

sensitive nature now you could take

27:33

that a couple of different ways you sure could

27:35

first of all it could be damaging

27:38

to our investigation so we don't want to give it

27:40

out right or

27:42

It's really bad news

27:44

that this family

27:45

is no longer alive and Sensitive

27:48

in that way. Yeah, maybe they have to vet

27:50

it out still and Eventually be able

27:52

to share that information with the public a

27:55

spokesman for the Palm Beach County Sheriff's

27:57

Department said that Port st. Lucy requested

28:00

them to check for buried bodies in

28:02

two areas in Palm Beach County,

28:04

West Palm Beach and Belle Glaive.

28:07

Corporal Johnson told the press

28:09

the Savannah police notified port St. Lucie

28:12

on September 10th that James

28:14

Brown filed a police report with them

28:16

on

28:17

July 18th,

28:19

claiming he was shot during

28:21

an alleged robbery. James was

28:23

using the alias Demetrius Jones

28:26

and was hitchhiking through the city.

28:28

He was shot once behind the left ear

28:31

with a small caliber handgun and was

28:33

hospitalized for two days.

28:35

Now the police were skeptical about the

28:37

alleged robbery because it took place

28:40

in a neighborhood with a very low crime rate.

28:42

There were also no witnesses and

28:45

no loss of money.

28:46

The robbery also reportedly took

28:48

place the same day the Savannah

28:51

police found the family's car. All right.

28:53

So they're not sure he's telling the truth. But

28:55

they got things to work with.

28:57

Yeah. They have to question. I mean, number one,

28:59

why is he using an alias? Why

29:01

is he going by Demetrius Jones?

29:04

Why is he hitchhiking through the city when

29:06

his car is in a parking lot in

29:08

the same city, right? Things

29:11

just don't seem to,

29:13

to be adding up. Why did somebody

29:15

shoot him

29:17

during what he was calling a robbery,

29:19

but nothing was taken,

29:22

you can see why they might be skeptical. Sure.

29:24

On September 12th, the port St. Lucie

29:27

and Savannah police announced that they

29:30

linked James Brown to the apparent

29:32

murders of his wife and children.

29:35

They confirmed that searches took place in

29:37

Palm beach County and Brunswick, Georgia

29:39

for the bodies of Carolyn and the children

29:42

based on information given to them by

29:45

James Brown,

29:46

but no bodies were found. The police were

29:48

told that Carolyn and Brandon were

29:50

put in West Palm beach or Belgrade,

29:53

Florida, after they were killed.

29:55

Corporal Chuck Johnson said at a news conference

29:58

that these two deaths

29:59

Reportedly occurred in the home in Port

30:02

st. Lucie,

30:03

but there was nothing to verify this information

30:05

Johnson also said that Shakita

30:08

and Barry were reportedly killed

30:10

at an unspecified Location

30:13

near Brunswick, Georgia.

30:15

So it sounds like they're still trying to iron out some details

30:18

well, I think at the very least they're trying

30:20

to Substantiate his claim

30:23

and these are very bold claim.

30:25

They are I mean, these are I killed my

30:28

family But

30:29

they're not seeing evidence of

30:31

it in the house. Now. We didn't mention the one wall

30:34

that was freshly painted

30:36

Savannah authorities confirmed that James

30:38

indicated he killed his family

30:40

and that Carolyn and Brandon were disposed

30:43

of in Palm Beach County and Belgrade

30:45

and Shakita and Barry were killed in Georgia. So

30:48

we're getting the same story

30:50

from Both police

30:52

departments

30:53

Although the full details weren't public

30:55

knowledge at that time

30:57

James admitted to murdering his entire

30:59

family and Attempting to end

31:01

his own life.

31:02

He told the police that

31:04

he shot Carolyn in bed at their

31:06

home in Port st. Lucie

31:08

their son Brandon was sleeping next to

31:10

her

31:11

He smothered Brandon with a pillow

31:13

and disposed of the bodies in a field

31:16

in Palm Beach County, Florida

31:17

Then on July 17th,

31:19

he drove Shakita and Barry to Brunswick,

31:22

Georgia He shot Barry in the head

31:25

and shot Shakita in the face

31:27

Then disposed of the bodies on interstate 95.

31:30

How

31:31

do you do that man? any of that, but

31:34

especially smother your two-year-old

31:37

and then turn around and Shoot

31:39

your one boy in the back of the head, but

31:41

then shoot your daughter in the face

31:43

looking at her at the time Yeah, but

31:46

how is this making sense?

31:49

If you shoot someone Lying

31:51

in bed. There is gonna be evidence

31:53

of that all over that bed Yeah,

31:56

not just the back wall that was repainted, you

31:58

know, they said there was a wall that was painted I'm

32:00

assuming that's the wall. Maybe. Maybe.

32:03

Maybe. I don't know. What

32:05

about the bed? What about the pillow,

32:08

the sheets, the blankets, all that stuff?

32:10

Well, we don't know if that

32:13

stuff was still there. Was it disposed

32:15

of? Was it burned? The

32:18

one thing I would say is that as

32:20

we've seen time and time again, it's

32:23

very hard to clean

32:25

up a crime scene, especially when

32:27

you shot someone and not

32:29

miss something that the police will

32:32

later somehow find. According

32:34

to the Charlie project, the police conducted

32:37

extensive searches of the areas James

32:40

listed in his confession, but found

32:42

no bodies and nothing leading to the

32:44

family's location.

32:46

Some investigators believed James

32:48

lied about where he disposed

32:50

of the bodies. And you can see why some

32:53

might believe that if he's

32:55

giving you these areas,

32:57

and you're checking out these areas

32:59

and you don't find anything. Now I get

33:02

it. Interstate 95 is probably

33:04

a pretty long road, but

33:07

he's telling you a pretty specific

33:10

part of that. Part of that road. James

33:13

Brown was arrested on September 12th

33:16

in charge with filing a false report. We

33:19

talked about it, right? James initially

33:22

told police that his injury resulted

33:25

from a report that was robbery,

33:27

but then later confessed that it

33:30

was an attempt to end his own life. So

33:33

they charged him for filing a false

33:36

police report. James also led

33:38

the police to a small caliber revolver,

33:41

which may have been the gun he purchased

33:43

on June 21st. The gun was

33:45

empty when the police found it.

33:47

The Savannah police described James

33:50

as coherent. He admitted what he did

33:53

and he even seemed remorseful. On

33:55

September 17th, St. Lucy County

33:57

Sheriff's deputies dragged a Lake near the.

34:00

family home, but again, found

34:02

no bodies. So I mean, I think

34:04

we got to take a step back here and just kind

34:06

of talk about what's going

34:08

on up to this point. Right. We

34:10

have four members of a family missing.

34:14

The father has told a number

34:16

of different stories, but

34:19

one is that he murdered his entire

34:21

family.

34:23

And he's told them where he has buried

34:25

them. But they've

34:27

not been able to locate the body. Right.

34:30

You have the

34:31

Savannah police, you know, kind of describing

34:34

him as being together, being

34:36

all there, even being remorseful,

34:38

right?

34:39

But you have some police not

34:41

believing, you know, what he's telling them.

34:44

And if he is telling the truth, he's

34:46

handed them the murder weapon, the

34:48

gun. Which is great.

34:51

If you find the bodies

34:53

that were shot without the bodies,

34:55

doesn't mean anything. It really doesn't. I

34:58

don't know what you're trying to

35:00

match.

35:01

In September, 1985, the state

35:03

attorney's office in Florida filed

35:06

a warrant charging James with the murders

35:08

of Carolyn and Brandon inside

35:10

the port St. Lucie house,

35:12

prosecutors waited to bring James

35:14

to Florida until he served his time in

35:16

Georgia after being convicted of

35:18

filing a false police report. Okay.

35:20

So he was convicted. How long

35:23

do you do for

35:24

filing a false police report?

35:27

Oh, no. How serious is that? I mean, I know

35:29

it's illegal. Maybe

35:31

that's a 30 day thing. What seems to

35:33

maybe have been quite a bit longer because

35:36

he wasn't flown back to Florida

35:39

to face a homicide charge until April

35:41

23rd of 1986. A long

35:43

time.

35:44

So maybe, maybe it was more like six months

35:46

or something like that. He was also a suspect

35:49

in the Dassa of Shakita and

35:51

Barry. After James was booked

35:53

on a homicide charge, the state

35:55

had 21 days to bring their

35:57

case to a grand jury to determine

35:59

if they're

35:59

was enough evidence for formal murder

36:02

charges, three court appointed

36:04

doctors evaluated James Brown

36:07

and found him competent to stand trial

36:09

in late May, 1986.

36:11

On June 19th of that year,

36:14

James Brown was indicted by a grand

36:16

jury for the murders of Carolyn and

36:18

Brandon Brown. The judge ordered

36:21

another exam to test for competency

36:24

to stand trial.

36:25

On July 29th,

36:27

James's attorney filed notice that

36:29

he suffered from paranoid schizophrenia

36:32

and was clinically insane

36:35

when he allegedly killed his wife

36:37

and son.

36:38

A detailed evaluation report by

36:40

psychologist Sheldon Rifkin was

36:42

filed in court.

36:44

The Rifkin report stated that James

36:47

was probably insane at the time

36:49

of the murders,

36:50

but he could assist in his defense.

36:53

So that's an interesting statement.

36:56

If you can assist in your defense,

36:58

then you're competent to stand trial, right? But

37:01

he goes a step further and says,

37:04

even though that's true, he

37:06

was probably insane. At the time

37:08

of the murder, at the time of the murders. And those

37:10

are two completely different things. They

37:12

are. And that's probably exactly what the defense

37:14

wanted to hear. Right.

37:16

He can stand trial,

37:18

but he's, he was insane at the time of the murders.

37:20

According to the St. Lucy news Tribune,

37:23

James told Sheldon Rifkin,

37:25

I felt an urge to die and

37:27

take my people with me. I don't

37:29

know why I just didn't want to live.

37:31

I figured that I wasn't any good to them.

37:34

Wasn't helping them in everyday life. I

37:36

couldn't do enough for them. According

37:38

to the report on the morning

37:40

of the murders, James went to the living room.

37:43

And during the time he was in the living

37:45

room, he states, he was not thinking

37:48

about any specific action or thought,

37:50

but that it just came to me to

37:52

end it. The paper went on to say

37:55

James picked up a gun and went into

37:57

the bedroom

37:58

where he killed Carolyn and Brandon.

38:00

James Brown told Rifkin that Carolyn

38:03

wanted him to kill her, but she

38:05

didn't say so in so many

38:07

words.

38:08

He said Carolyn wanted to die because

38:11

they both had a venereal disease

38:13

that was not cured.

38:15

James said, we had problems and

38:17

sores, problems with our body.

38:20

James indicated that the problems involved

38:23

odors in my nose and mouth. I

38:25

couldn't get rid of it. We went to doctors,

38:27

but it just got worse and I couldn't take

38:30

it no more.

38:31

According to the Miami Herald, James

38:33

feared he infected his family with

38:35

syphilis. Despite there being no evidence

38:38

that he had syphilis, James believed

38:40

he got the disease from his first

38:42

wife. So,

38:43

I mean, I just want to analyze this

38:45

a little bit. You know, it seems

38:47

as though at first, you know,

38:49

he's telling this psychiatrist

38:53

or the psychologist, I didn't

38:55

want to live anymore. And I wanted

38:57

to take my family with me because

38:59

I wasn't doing anything for

39:02

them. I couldn't support them. Right. Couldn't keep

39:04

a job. And we've heard this before.

39:06

Sure we have. From family annihilators.

39:08

Yeah.

39:09

But then he kind of

39:11

almost transitions to,

39:14

well, Carolyn wanted me to kill her because

39:17

we had these

39:18

problems. That we were suffering from. So

39:21

I guess my question is, which

39:23

one was it? Or was it

39:26

both one the other

39:28

or neither? I don't know if he

39:30

knows. I think maybe he had a lot

39:32

of things going on. Maybe.

39:34

And maybe he did suffer

39:36

from some things. The one thing I will

39:38

say

39:39

is none of this is really making a

39:41

lot of sense to me.

39:43

So

39:43

either that's because he's

39:46

waffling all over the place

39:48

and telling

39:50

different versions of the

39:52

story.

39:53

Because he wants this

39:55

mental health expert

39:57

to think that he has mental

39:59

health.

39:59

issues or he really does have mental

40:02

health issues

40:03

or he's just lying. I don't know. There's a

40:05

lot of different scenarios at play here.

40:07

Back in the day, syphilis drove

40:10

people to do some crazy things. Yeah,

40:12

I don't know exactly what it was,

40:14

but I have this thought that

40:17

untreated syphilis drove people mad.

40:21

But in 1985, I

40:23

think syphilis was treatable

40:26

to the point where that

40:28

wouldn't happen. I don't know

40:31

if there was a cure for it. I really don't know

40:33

much about syphilis. I know you know a lot about

40:35

it, but

40:37

I don't know that it would

40:39

cause what we're thinking of

40:42

like many, many, many, many years

40:44

ago. Yeah, that's because I used to research it when I did

40:46

all my free work to help people

40:49

out. Yeah. You know,

40:51

a number of things. Yeah, I'm sure. So James

40:53

says he went to doctors and if that's true, there

40:55

should have been evidence of whether or

40:58

not he had syphilis. Yeah, so I

41:00

don't know if the paper saying there

41:02

was no evidence that he

41:04

had syphilis means that

41:06

the police checked with these doctors

41:09

and they didn't know anything about it or

41:12

or what I don't know. It simply said there was

41:14

no evidence that he had it.

41:17

After James shot Carolyn,

41:20

the other two children came to the door

41:22

and they asked what the noise was.

41:24

James told them that a TV had exploded

41:27

and they left to make breakfast. He

41:29

took Shakita and Barry to Georgia

41:32

after he disposed of Carolyn and Brandon's

41:35

bodies. James said he suffered

41:37

auditory and visual hallucinations

41:39

after he shot Carolyn and this continued

41:42

until he was arrested and put on

41:44

medication. According to the

41:46

St. Lucie News Tribune, Rifkin reported

41:49

that James had been seriously

41:51

disturbed for a long time but

41:53

avoided detection by isolating

41:56

himself from others.

41:57

James Brown could adapt appropriate.

42:00

expressions and feelings and social

42:02

situations. Despite having

42:04

a master's degree, James

42:06

scored low on IQ tests.

42:09

Rifkin's report said that James

42:11

struggled to control and suppress his

42:13

underlying feelings and did so

42:15

at the expense of cognitive

42:17

and emotional resources.

42:20

I'm not really surprised that he has a master's degree,

42:23

but scored low on IQ tests. I think that can

42:25

happen. Oh yeah, I mean I

42:27

don't think that everybody that has

42:30

a master's is at

42:32

your Mensa level. I

42:34

mean a master's degree is a great accomplishment,

42:36

don't get me wrong,

42:37

but I don't think you have to be

42:39

super super smart to get one.

42:42

You got to put in some work. Yeah. But

42:44

I don't know how much it correlates

42:47

to IQ necessarily.

42:50

The other thing that I always think about

42:52

is

42:53

could someone

42:55

snow a mental health

42:57

expert? Could they purposefully

43:01

mess up an IQ test?

43:03

Could

43:03

they do a professional

43:06

by saying certain things or acting

43:09

a certain way?

43:10

And I would have to think that people

43:12

could do it. I would think so.

43:14

Now I'm not saying he is, but is it a possibility?

43:17

You got to ask that. You got to keep it in your

43:20

mind.

43:20

On August 6th, Assistant

43:23

State Attorney Tom Walsh requested

43:25

that two mental health experts

43:27

of his choosing examine James

43:29

Brown. By late October

43:33

1986, three different psychiatrists had concluded

43:36

that James Brown was insane.

43:38

At the time he allegedly killed

43:40

his family, Dr. Donald Schultz

43:42

requested by the prosecution

43:45

to examine James,

43:46

filed a report agreeing

43:49

with Dr. Rifkin's findings.

43:51

Schultz noted in his report that James's

43:54

father spent eight years in

43:56

the Florida state mental hospital after

43:58

trying to hurt his wife.

44:00

James's paternal grandmother suffered

44:02

from mental illness and his brother

44:05

was incarcerated for shooting his wife It's

44:07

a lot of wife shooting

44:09

it is in one family. It's

44:11

like we got some genetic stuff going on Yeah, I

44:13

mean that's kind of where my mind was

44:15

going as well Scholten

44:17

Rifkin agreed that James was obsessed

44:20

with the idea that he gave

44:22

his family syphilis and then

44:24

began having Delusions of voices

44:26

telling him to kill his family But

44:28

these delusions got better when he

44:31

started taking medication

44:33

in jail

44:34

so I thought this was interesting

44:36

that a Psychiatrist

44:39

for the state

44:40

came up with the exact same

44:43

Finding yeah, so I said

44:46

could you snow? One mental

44:48

health professional I think you could you

44:50

could does it get harder to snow

44:53

two or three? I think so Let's

44:56

they're really lazy. I think it's gonna be difficult.

44:58

I think I think it is the more people

45:00

that you have do

45:02

What I would call an unbiased

45:05

Evaluation because

45:06

you can make an argument

45:08

that people are biased whether they're working

45:10

for the defense

45:12

or for the state But this is a state

45:14

psychiatrist and

45:17

Let's call him a defense psychiatrist.

45:19

I don't know if he really is or not, but they're agreeing

45:21

so I think you throw bias

45:24

out the window at that point

45:26

because Obviously if they were

45:28

biased

45:29

they would have differing opinions the

45:32

second psychiatrist Requested

45:34

by the prosecution dr. Frank

45:36

Travato at

45:37

this point hadn't filed his report

45:40

But it was said he was 99% certain

45:44

of James insanity at the

45:46

time of the murders But he wasn't as

45:48

certain that

45:49

James didn't remember where he put

45:52

the bodies because

45:53

I think that's a kind of a big thing

45:55

in this case it is

45:56

We need the bodies. Where are they both

45:59

the

47:59

Officials wrote to the court recommending

48:02

that James Brown be transferred

48:04

out of the halfway house, but they said they

48:06

were uncomfortable with his plan to

48:08

live with his sister because they didn't

48:10

believe he was fully recovered.

48:12

James was required to take medication

48:15

and to attend daily therapy as

48:18

part of his release. On

48:20

January 16th, 1997, a judge

48:23

decided that James Brown could

48:25

live with his relatives in Tallahassee,

48:28

Florida. The judge made his decision

48:30

after two different psychiatrists determined

48:33

James was not a danger to himself

48:35

or others. According to the Charley

48:38

Project, James was free for several

48:40

years, but in 2005, he was back

48:43

in prison.

48:44

James threatened to kill a bank clerk during

48:47

a robbery. So he did basically 10

48:50

years in the mental hospital. They deemed

48:52

him good enough to be released, and

48:55

he's out for a while. Looks like he pretty

48:57

much lives a normal life, doesn't

49:00

get caught doing anything wrong, then

49:02

all of a sudden in 2005, he's robbing a bank. Yeah,

49:06

and I said several years, but it's actually more than

49:08

several. I'd say it's more like seven

49:10

or eight years

49:11

before this bank robbery.

49:14

Now that's obviously going to land

49:16

you in prison, right? A bank robbery,

49:19

on

49:20

top of that, you threaten to kill one

49:22

of the bank clerks.

49:24

But does that seem strange,

49:26

that he was able to live

49:28

on the outside for quite

49:31

a number of years? Yeah. And

49:34

then all of a sudden, it's like

49:35

this happened. Why? We

49:37

don't know. Yeah, we don't know what was going on in his

49:40

life at that time that he felt that he needed to do

49:42

this.

49:42

We don't know if he was still taking his medication.

49:46

Had he been

49:47

doing therapy?

49:49

You know, I have so many questions in this case,

49:51

Gibbs. It's unbelievable.

49:53

At the end of the day, Carolyn, Shakita,

49:56

Barry, and Brandon have never been

49:58

found, and they are still

49:59

classified as missing

50:02

persons.

50:03

Age progression photos of

50:05

Shakita, Brandon and Barry were

50:07

uploaded to NamUs in 2012 depicting

50:10

the children as adults. The

50:13

Brown family have been missing for more

50:15

than 30 years. And I think

50:18

for most people

50:19

who have looked into this case,

50:22

it's more likely than not

50:24

that there's only one person, James

50:26

Brown, that knows what

50:28

really happened to them. Now, the

50:31

question is,

50:33

was he really, as

50:34

a number of psychiatrists

50:38

determined, insane

50:40

at the time that he did what he did and

50:43

what exactly did he do?

50:45

I mean, it's hard to think that

50:47

these individuals are alive 30

50:50

years later. Sure. The more plausible

50:53

explanation is that he did murder

50:56

his

50:57

wife and children,

50:59

he disposed of their body somewhere.

51:01

Did he know what he was doing? Did he not

51:04

know what he was doing?

51:05

Did he not understand that it was

51:08

wrong? Did

51:09

he not know the difference between right and wrong?

51:11

I mean, those are all questions

51:14

that I have. It's hard to

51:16

argue though, with three different psychiatrists.

51:19

It really is. We've done cases

51:21

where,

51:22

you know, the defense psychiatrist

51:25

says one thing. The state psychiatrist

51:27

says something completely different. And

51:30

that is what usually happens, right? That's

51:32

what we normally see.

51:34

When in the world have you ever seen

51:36

this where two state

51:39

psychiatrists and the defense, they

51:41

all agree. Yeah, they're all lined together. I

51:43

don't know that I've ever seen it. And so,

51:45

you know, hard for me to say that

51:48

they're wrong. Three different people. I

51:51

think you have to go with the flow on that one. But

51:53

it's still such a mystery. It

51:55

is. I mean, he's given details

51:57

of where the bodies were. But

52:00

they weren't found but they were found so was

52:02

he telling the truth or did he just

52:04

not really remember exactly. Why

52:07

you know i will say this when

52:09

he talked about carolyn

52:11

and brand he said he buried

52:13

them in a field

52:14

in palm beach county

52:16

how many fields are in palm beach county

52:18

right. Was it even in palm beach

52:20

county right could he have been wrong maybe thought

52:22

it was in palm beach county but wasn't could it

52:24

be a field in a different county and

52:27

then when you talking about you.

52:29

I ninety five well like i said

52:31

obviously a pretty major road pretty

52:34

long. Could you have been completely

52:36

wrong about what part of

52:39

the interstate how far off. Obviously

52:42

it couldn't be been right by the road

52:45

thousands and thousands of cars would

52:47

have passed it every day yeah so

52:50

somebody would have have seen two bodies

52:53

it had to have been.

52:54

You know way off the road somewhere where

52:57

passing cars wouldn't have seen it and

52:59

when you're talking about that length

53:01

of road if you're substantially

53:04

off. Big

53:05

difference

53:06

yeah i mean it would be much

53:09

harder to to find the body so

53:11

i don't know this is a case that

53:14

you just really perplexes

53:17

me. Yeah for me the sad

53:19

part is if what

53:22

he said happened happened. His

53:24

kids his wife

53:26

this is your your husband your father

53:29

the ultimate trust. The protector

53:31

yeah yeah but

53:34

if he wasn't in his right state of

53:36

mind.

53:36

You know the other thing that i didn't talk about was

53:39

you did you mentioned it but he was

53:42

in the florida state mental hospital

53:44

for nine or ten years. That's a pretty

53:47

long time it is

53:48

not they let him go after

53:50

six months or thirty days or something

53:53

like that. Maybe there would be more to question

53:56

that that's a really you know that's a pretty good

53:58

chunk of time not to. to pay

54:00

for murder, but

54:03

to be held in a state hospital. So

54:06

they felt that you were okay to be

54:08

on your own. Yeah. It wasn't like, Oh, all

54:11

of a sudden he was okay. So,

54:13

I mean, I think that maybe lends

54:16

some credence to the determination

54:19

that the psychiatrists made.

54:22

I don't know. I think this is a case that,

54:24

you know, may divide people and

54:27

that's okay. People are going to have their own opinions

54:30

on,

54:30

you know, was he really insane

54:34

at the time that the murders were committed? I

54:37

don't, to me, there's very little doubt that he

54:39

murdered his family. No, I

54:41

think he did. And I have to side

54:43

with the psychologist. Yeah.

54:45

And honestly, I don't

54:47

always do that. No, I know. I'm very

54:50

skeptical of

54:52

some of these mental health professionals

54:56

when they're testifying for one side or the

54:58

other, because there's, there's bias. And

55:00

I said it,

55:01

I'm throwing bias out the window because

55:03

these people are working for different

55:05

sides and yet all came to the same

55:07

conclusion. So

55:09

to me, it seems much

55:11

more likely that

55:13

they're correct. Yeah, I agree. But

55:16

that's it for our episode on the Brown

55:18

family disappearance.

55:20

If you have any relevant information

55:22

in this case, you can contact the

55:24

Port St. Lucy police department at

55:27

five, six, one,

55:28

eight, seven, one, 5,000. We've

55:31

got some voicemails. Gibbs, you want to check those out?

55:33

Yeah. The serum.

55:34

Hi, this is

55:36

Maggie from friendly Ohio. This is only

55:39

the fourth time I've tried rerecording

55:41

that. So sorry for your voicemail box. Anywho,

55:44

I was listening to your unsolved episode

55:47

of the Nancy and Joey murder.

55:49

Um, and I was

55:51

listening and at about

55:55

minute 32 and a half, you gave

55:57

me a good chuckle because

55:59

You said of course she would want her kidnapper

56:02

caught. Well you actually

56:05

said of course she would want him killed.

56:07

And I was like, I don't think that's what

56:09

he meant to say. So I just thought it was so

56:11

funny. But yeah, I've

56:13

been listening for about two

56:15

years now. I started off with

56:17

TCAT and then

56:20

I moved over to TCAT and Salk which

56:22

I never thought I was gonna do, but I was like, oh

56:24

my God, I gotta have more. So I finally

56:26

did. You're definitely

56:29

giving me some more days. I'm a dog trainer, so I'm

56:31

always in the car traveling to clients. So

56:33

it really helps pass all that time.

56:36

But keep doing what you're doing and keep

56:38

your head on the

56:38

flibble and keep your own time

56:40

ticket. Bye.

56:43

All right, love it. Now I don't know

56:45

that she said which of us made that mistake,

56:48

did she? She did not. But it's probably

56:50

you. It's hard to believe that either one

56:52

of us would say something incorrectly.

56:56

We only do it like 10

56:58

times an episode. Me never. And

57:01

sometimes when you're riffing

57:04

just off the top, you do say

57:06

things wrong. You do, it can

57:08

happen. You mix

57:09

up words, you say

57:12

something that you, if you sat down and you

57:14

thought about it, you would obviously know

57:16

that what you're saying is not correct.

57:18

But in the moment, sometimes

57:20

your brain doesn't work that way. That's true. Hi,

57:23

my name is Gabby. It's Sami.

57:27

I signed up for Patreon a couple

57:29

months ago and I never remember

57:31

hearing a shout out. I am

57:33

still back in 2018,

57:35

trying to catch up on

57:38

all of your episodes. So

57:40

I'm still catching up. I have a lot

57:43

to do. But every day I consider

57:46

it hanging out with you guys as I'm

57:48

getting ready for work or driving to work

57:51

or driving home. I

57:53

truly love you guys. I listen to

57:55

you every day. You guys make me laugh,

57:58

but also your podcast. the past

58:00

is just so interesting. I've even

58:02

gotten my boyfriend listening

58:04

to true crime as well. So thank

58:07

you guys for all you do. I will

58:09

keep listening and eventually I'll catch

58:11

up and we'll be in real time together.

58:15

But for now, stay safe and keep

58:17

your own time. Take it.

58:19

All right, appreciate the voicemail. I don't know if anybody

58:21

heard Gibby coughing at the end

58:23

there. He was trying to hold it in. I was, I was dying.

58:26

He just, he just couldn't do it. So, you

58:28

know, she touched on a point Gibbs and

58:31

I was actually emailing with somebody today

58:33

and they were saying something similar,

58:35

you know, along the lines of

58:38

us helping them get through things,

58:41

us kind of being with them, almost

58:43

like friends in their ear

58:46

or something like that.

58:47

And I told the person back

58:49

in an email,

58:50

I'd love to hear that. I never thought

58:53

about that when we started the

58:55

podcast. Obviously we didn't think about a lot of things,

58:58

but that for sure is something

59:00

that

59:01

I never thought I would get, but every

59:04

time we hear it, it makes me feel so good.

59:06

Like

59:07

if we're helping people out in any way

59:09

or whatever it is, I'm, it's

59:11

just, it's just an awesome feeling that

59:13

I wish everybody

59:15

could experience. I don't know

59:17

how to give it to everybody, but

59:20

it really is a wonderful

59:22

feeling. It is warm, all

59:25

that stuff. So

59:27

appreciate the voicemail very much. All right, buddy,

59:29

that's it for another episode

59:31

of True Crime All The Time Unsolved. So for Mike,

59:34

stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

59:37

Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. See

59:39

you next time. Bye-bye.

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