0:01

Hi, it's Kellyanne Conway. And I'm David

0:03

Plouffe, and we have some surprising news.

0:05

We're teaming up for a brand new

0:07

podcast, The Campaign Managers. I know

0:09

what you're thinking. Why would Plouffe and

0:11

Kellyanne do this? Because frankly, Kellyanne,

0:14

we disagree on just about every issue, except

0:16

about what it takes to win a presidential

0:18

campaign. Kellyanne ran Donald Trump's

0:20

campaign, Iran Barack Obama's campaign. We understand

0:23

things like early vote. We understand how

0:25

to leverage an opportunity and how to

0:27

play defense when you've made a mistake.

0:31

2024 is an election like none other. And David

0:33

Plouffe and I are going to take you behind

0:35

the scenes like no one else can. We're

0:37

going to lean into our one-of-a-kind experiences, really

0:40

educate our listeners about what to keep an

0:42

eye on, and discuss the current strategies and

0:44

tactics that both campaigns are deploying on the

0:46

campaign trail. We're going to disagree.

0:48

We're going to dissent. But we're going to

0:51

deliver. You won't want to miss

0:53

this unique pairing. Join us by listening to

0:55

The Campaign Managers with Kellyanne Conway and David

0:57

Plouffe. The first episode is out

1:00

May 22nd, available wherever you get your

1:02

podcasts. Hello,

1:37

everyone, and welcome to episode 368 of

1:40

the True Crime All the Time Unsolved

1:42

podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me,

1:44

as always, is my partner in true

1:46

crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

1:48

Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm

1:51

doing very well. Having a good week. You and I

1:53

have a ton out right now. On

1:55

Saturday, we dropped a brand

1:58

new Patreon episode. Christopher

2:00

Lovren and this is an

2:02

interesting case centering

2:05

around modern forensic

2:07

technology that kind of helped

2:10

pin this guy to two murders

2:12

that were committed 20 years apart. So

2:15

if you're not on Patreon, that was a good time

2:17

to get over there. Yeah, absolutely. Check it out. We

2:19

also have out right now on

2:21

True Crime All the Time, part

2:24

one on Jodie Arias and

2:26

the murder of Travis Alexander. Very

2:29

interesting case. Yeah, infamous case. Most

2:31

people know it, but we

2:33

knew we were going to do it at

2:35

some point and now's the time that we

2:38

picked to do it. Let's go

2:40

ahead and give our Patreon shout outs.

2:42

We had Bailey. Hey, Bailey. Jace Reese

2:44

jumped out to highest level. Hey, thank

2:46

you so much, Jace. Kelsey Key. Hey,

2:49

Kelsey. Tyler Fink. Hey, Tyler. Sarah.

2:52

Well, good old Sarah. Suzanne Colwicky. Hey,

2:54

there is the Suzanne. Peggy. What's

2:56

going on, Peggy? Courtney Morris. Hey, thanks,

2:59

Morris. What's up, Quinn? And

3:01

last but not least, Mariah Cole. Thanks,

3:03

Cole. And if we go back into the

3:05

vault, this week

3:07

we selected Brianna Cramer. Cramer

3:10

in the house. Yeah, so we

3:12

appreciate everyone very, very much.

3:14

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into

3:16

this episode of True Crime All the Time on

3:19

Salt? I am ready. We

3:21

were talking about the disappearance of Susan Powell.

3:23

It was 14 years ago. Susan

3:26

Powell disappeared from her home in

3:29

West Valley City, Utah. Investigators

3:32

believe that her husband, Josh Powell,

3:34

who was declared a person of

3:36

interest but never formally charged, had

3:38

something to do with her disappearance.

3:42

And Josh Powell is

3:44

probably one of the most hated

3:46

individuals in the

3:48

world of true crime. And deserves

3:51

it. Yeah, it's very

3:53

deserved because of

3:57

what it is known that

3:59

he did. and we'll get into

4:01

all of that. Susan Cox

4:03

Powell was born in New

4:06

Mexico on October 16th 1981.

4:08

Susan's parents are Chuck and Judy

4:11

Cox. According to the

4:13

Susan Cox Powell Foundation, the

4:15

family lived in Alaska but settled

4:17

in Washington State when Susan was a

4:19

child. Multiple sources described

4:22

Susan as a warm and

4:24

open person. Susan met her

4:26

future husband Josh Powell in 2000 at

4:29

a church function in

4:31

Puyallup, Washington. Josh Powell was

4:33

born in 1976 and

4:36

grew up in Washington State. He

4:38

had a troubled past. Josh tried to

4:40

end his life when he was 13 or 14 years old once

4:44

when his mother tried to get him to do the

4:46

dishes. He turned towards her

4:48

with a butchered knife in hand

4:50

and said, don't push it mom.

4:53

You know some kids say some strange

4:55

things when they don't want to do

4:57

chores. Get a little mouthy maybe.

5:00

Yeah, little extreme.

5:02

But I think when you're holding a butcher

5:04

knife in your hand then

5:07

the words take on

5:09

maybe a little bit of extra.

5:11

Yeah. A little more

5:13

menacing. Now I do

5:15

know for a fact that

5:19

if I turned towards my mother when I

5:21

was younger with a butcher knife and said

5:23

don't push it mom, things were not

5:25

going to go well for me. No. My

5:27

mom is a lovely person but she

5:29

would not have put up with that you know

5:31

what nor should she or should she have. His

5:34

parents Steven and Tariqah started divorce

5:36

proceedings in 1992 and were involved

5:38

in a bitter court

5:42

battle according to oxygen. Josh was

5:44

16 years old at the time. They

5:46

disagreed on parenting and

5:48

religion and accused each

5:50

other of being an unfit parent.

5:53

According to the Seattle Times Steve

5:56

accused her of practicing witchcraft

5:58

and devil worship.

6:01

She responded that Steve shared

6:03

pornography with their son. She

6:05

also alleged that he was harsh towards

6:08

Josh and verbally attacked him. Okay,

6:10

I mean, we've talked about a

6:12

lot of marriages that have

6:14

gone south. This one sounds

6:17

like it. It fell

6:19

apart. Yeah, completely. I mean,

6:21

there are claims of witchcraft,

6:24

devil worship. I

6:27

think when you disagree

6:29

on parenting and

6:32

religion, those are going to be

6:34

tough hurdles to overcome. For sure. Yeah. And

6:36

then she's saying that, you know, he

6:38

is showing pornography to the kids. I

6:41

mean, there's just a lot going on.

6:43

Steve acknowledged that he didn't know

6:46

how to handle Josh because he

6:48

was too old for spanking. And

6:50

I kind of think about a, you

6:53

know, an eight, nine year old

6:55

Gibby, 5'11", 240. I

6:58

mean, it's tough to

7:01

bend over someone's knee

7:03

and, you know, give

7:05

a spanking to. That was a husky

7:07

boy. We're in huskies, which are going

7:09

to absorb much of the damage anyway.

7:11

Yeah, they were a little thick. By

7:14

the late nineties, Josh was a student

7:16

at the University of Washington in Tacoma,

7:18

where he would graduate with a degree

7:20

in business before he met Susan.

7:23

He was in a relationship with a

7:25

young woman named Catherine Terry Everett. Josh

7:28

became possessive after they moved in

7:30

together and refused to allow her

7:33

to visit her family. And

7:35

this idea of

7:37

guys being extremely possessive

7:40

to the point where they don't

7:42

even want someone visiting

7:44

family or talking to them on

7:47

the phone. That is just

7:49

such a horrible sign. Yeah, I

7:51

never understood that. I mean, I understand it's

7:53

based around control. Yes, absolutely. But at the

7:55

end of the day, what are you really

7:58

gaining? And how do you think? I

8:00

think it's going to be good long-term. Right.

8:03

Isolate your spouse and

8:05

hope that she stays with you because she feels

8:07

like she has nobody else. And

8:10

unfortunately, it does happen. It

8:12

does work sometimes to

8:15

the detriment of the other

8:17

person. Catherine left to

8:19

see a friend in Utah and decided

8:21

not to return to Washington. She

8:24

broke up with Josh over the phone. Good

8:26

for her. Well, I think

8:28

that she saw the writing on

8:30

the wall. Yeah. This is not healthy.

8:33

This is not going to be a

8:36

good relationship and I'm getting

8:38

out. Yeah. This is how it's starting.

8:40

Where's it going to go? Right. Is

8:42

it going to get better? No, it's probably going to get worse. As

8:44

mentioned, Josh and Susan met at a

8:47

church function. Susan was

8:49

also his classmate at the

8:51

LDS Church Institute of Religion

8:53

course. Susan was 19 years old

8:56

when she and Josh got engaged. She

8:59

thought Josh was her perfect

9:01

match because of their contrasting

9:03

personalities. She was outgoing

9:05

and he was quiet. I

9:08

will say a lot of times that

9:10

kind of contrast

9:13

does work. There's

9:15

that old saying that opposites attract. I

9:17

think it's true. I think

9:20

my wife and I are different in

9:22

a lot of different ways, but

9:25

I think those differences help us

9:28

complement each other. I feel

9:30

like she's strong in the

9:32

areas where I'm not and

9:35

I'm strong in the areas that she's not.

9:38

Just like our relationship. Exactly. I

9:40

pick up the pieces a lot. You do. Keep

9:42

the train on the track. Exactly.

9:45

Susan and Josh got married at the

9:47

Portland Oregon Temple in April 2001.

9:51

Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy Cox,

9:53

never liked Josh. Judy

9:55

told Oxygen that she got a bad feeling

9:57

every time she was around him. said

10:00

that Susan likely felt sorry for

10:02

Josh because he didn't have many

10:04

friends. She thought she could

10:06

make him happy and he would change. Ooh,

10:09

that change thing. Yeah, that comes up

10:11

quite a bit. Also, there

10:13

seems to be for us a

10:15

streak of mother-in-laws

10:17

not liking their son-in-laws.

10:20

Well, that's kind of like that

10:23

old joke out there, right? Mother-in-laws

10:25

and son-in-laws. What's the joke?

10:32

You thought I was just going to let that skate on

10:34

by, didn't you? I did. No, I know

10:36

what you're saying. People are always talking about it. So

10:39

there's that, but then, like you said, there's

10:41

this idea that

10:43

I can help a person to change, and

10:46

I think for some people, they

10:48

are drawn to individuals

10:51

who, for the lack

10:53

of a better term, fix their

10:55

uppers to use a real

10:58

estate term. They can

11:01

help them out, bring the best out in them,

11:03

and they're going to be great.

11:05

People like that. They like that challenge, right? Yeah.

11:08

There are some people who do. After

11:10

the wedding, Josh and Susan moved

11:12

in with Josh's sister and brother-in-law,

11:14

Jennifer and Kirk Graves. Jennifer

11:17

told Dateline that the marriage was

11:19

a little rough from the beginning.

11:21

She said she would kind

11:23

of order him around a little bit,

11:26

and he wanted to control her and

11:28

not let her go to some activities with me.

11:31

Sounds like they were both trying

11:33

to exercise a little bit

11:35

of control, maybe. Well, you know, when you're

11:37

in that first year of marriage,

11:40

there's that little, uh, who's going to wear

11:42

the pants? Yeah, you're trying to

11:44

figure out how everything's going to work. Yeah. I

11:47

get it. She's ordering him around, but

11:50

he's also still in that mode of,

11:53

I'm going to tell you what

11:55

you can and cannot do, or

11:58

Who you can or cannot. Beware.

12:01

Yeah. Even. When it comes to

12:03

your family, That's. A tough pill to swallow.

12:05

I think it is. I think it is

12:07

because my wife still tells me. Sometimes.

12:10

To do things know, Lists.

12:13

All the time. I.

12:16

Bet. You know, we figured out a rhythm

12:18

and. Sometimes I don't sometimes I

12:20

don't so they'd rather messy tells you

12:22

and then you don't do it. Maybe

12:24

not on her time scales. Yes, yes,

12:26

that is the rhythm. At the

12:28

same time, Josh was growing closer to

12:31

his death. They. Talked multiple

12:33

times every week. Susan.

12:35

Started to complain to Jennifer this

12:37

Josh was unbearable to live with.

12:40

Unbearable to live with when

12:42

you're starting out in the

12:44

marriage. Is Not.

12:47

A good son was pretty rough. Way to

12:49

go. She also had problems

12:51

with Josh, his father Steve, which

12:53

will talk about later in the

12:55

absence. This was one of the

12:57

main reasons the couple moved to

12:59

West Valley City, Utah in two

13:02

thousand for. That. Year Susan

13:04

became pregnant with their first son

13:06

Charlie. Who. Was born on January

13:08

nineteen, two thousand and by. Josh.

13:10

Refused to Dr. Susan to the

13:13

hospital because he had to finish

13:15

something so her parents drove her

13:17

instead. He. Showed up two hours later.

13:19

In said that he was backing

13:21

up his computer hard drive. Okay,

13:24

This. Is a problem. You. Know your

13:26

our when a baby. Your. Wife

13:28

needs you. Do. You know how

13:30

important it is the back up your

13:32

computer hard drives. I do not. Not

13:36

a bad time. For. I know for

13:38

a fact you remember. Back. In

13:41

those days now for us, it's

13:43

been twenty plus years. Yeah, but

13:45

it's everything. Yeah. You you get

13:48

things ready to go. Got. A

13:50

Plan. Part. Of that

13:52

plan does not include. Making.

13:55

My in com pick up my

13:57

wife wide. Back. up my hard

13:59

drive in been strolling in

14:01

two hours later. Maybe she's

14:04

had the baby. Maybe she's not, but she's

14:06

probably in pain. I'm not there for her

14:08

to yell at. Well, there is that.

14:10

I'm just trying to figure out how this excuse went

14:13

over. Hey guys, I'm here. Sorry.

14:15

Uh, it took a little bit longer to

14:17

back up the, uh, laptop. Well,

14:19

I, I don't know that this

14:21

is a guy who cared how

14:24

it went over. Yeah. I think you're probably

14:26

right. I think he might've been

14:28

a very selfish individual.

14:31

You know, we might see that throughout

14:34

the episode. I mean, his in-laws

14:36

didn't like him already. I mean, that

14:38

pretty much had to cement the

14:40

deal, right? I would think, yeah, this guy's a P

14:43

O S. Yeah. You're kind of persona non

14:45

grata after that. In

14:47

Utah, Susan got a job as a broker

14:50

for Wells Fargo. Josh struggled

14:52

to keep a steady job. The

14:54

couple's second son, Brayden was born on

14:56

January 2nd, 2007. Susan

14:59

loved being a mother and

15:02

was dedicated to her children, but

15:04

her problems with Josh worse.

15:07

Maybe he had to back up his hard drive

15:09

again. You know, I don't know if he made

15:11

that birth or not. I still

15:13

can't get over that. It's amazing, man. What

15:16

some people do

15:18

in 2007, the pals filed

15:21

for bankruptcy listing $200,000 in debt.

15:25

Well, if your marriage is not

15:27

that solid already, now

15:30

you've added two kids to the mix and

15:33

now you have this debt. It's going

15:35

to make it for a pretty rocky time. Well,

15:38

I would think, at least in

15:40

my experience, kids

15:42

and finances are two

15:45

major stressors or can be two

15:48

major stressors on marriages.

15:51

So if it's not already good before

15:54

that, you're going to

15:56

have a tough time keeping it together and

15:58

it was said that Josh was. controlling

16:00

of their finances despite the fact

16:03

that Susan worked too and it

16:05

sounds like she was working

16:08

more steadily yeah then he

16:10

was according to ABC

16:13

Susan had to get Josh's permission to

16:15

use the family car when he

16:17

gave her money to buy groceries she

16:20

had to first spend time looking through

16:22

ads to find the cheapest prices when

16:25

she came home she had to put

16:27

every item she bought into a spreadsheet

16:30

Josh would yell at her if he felt

16:32

like she spent too much he

16:34

wouldn't allow her to buy basic

16:36

items like socks insisting that

16:39

she knit them instead I'm

16:41

kind of laughing here now this

16:43

is sad yes really sad I'm laughing because

16:45

I'm trying to visualize in you telling this

16:48

to your wife and thinking

16:50

how short that conversation would be

16:52

if you told your wife that

16:55

she had asked permission to drive the car

16:57

she had to find ads and

16:59

cut them out and itemize every

17:02

expense or the other

17:04

way around yeah I mean if she

17:06

treated me like this yeah it

17:09

just wouldn't work and I don't know

17:11

what it is in

17:13

some people that makes them feel

17:16

as though they need to be

17:18

so controlling but I'm

17:20

telling you I don't know how many

17:22

people could put up with this it'd

17:25

be so difficult and I'm

17:27

sure right after she put that in the spreadsheet

17:30

he probably then had to back it up mister

17:33

yeah gotta back that up now

17:35

I'll see you in a couple hours two years

17:37

before Susan disappeared the couple took out

17:40

a $500,000 five-year term life

17:43

insurance policy and a $500,000 rider for Susan very

17:46

healthy Susan continued

17:50

talking to her family and friends

17:52

about Josh's problematic behavior at one

17:55

point she met with a divorce

17:57

lawyer Cox family attorney

17:59

and Bremer told ABC she'd

18:02

been really happy. He'd been a

18:04

great husband and she said that he really

18:06

changed. He became not

18:08

affectionate. I'm really kind of surprised

18:11

to hear this. Yeah, because, and maybe

18:14

it's just we've been harping on it, but

18:16

it doesn't sound like he was

18:18

a great husband at any point in time, but

18:20

maybe apparently in the beginning he was.

18:24

Her sister Denise Cox told her to take the

18:26

boys and leave, but Susan was hesitant. She

18:30

said that Josh told her, over

18:32

my dead body, will you have those

18:34

boys? They're mine. Gibbs,

18:36

have you ever uttered the statement

18:38

or the string of words, over

18:41

my dead body? Well, two

18:44

weeks ago, that last pizza, that

18:47

last piece of pizza that we had. Oh, when we were fighting over

18:49

that, yeah. But other

18:51

than that, in a real serious manner, it

18:54

seems like such a strange thing to say.

18:56

Yeah, it's very dramatic. I

18:59

feel like it's a very daytime soap

19:01

opera-y. Yeah. It's

19:03

not a word, but I'm using it anyway. It's a

19:05

word I've used it before. Susan

19:08

wrote emails to friends detailing her

19:10

troubled marriage and one email to

19:12

her best friend, Kersey Helliwell. She

19:14

wrote that she wanted to do everything

19:17

in my power, to save my

19:19

marriage before I walk away. I

19:21

understand that. You know, giving

19:23

up on a marriage, that's a very

19:25

tough decision. It is. And

19:28

you do. You want to say, I

19:30

gave it my all. I tried everything.

19:32

And that way, if it doesn't work, you

19:34

can sleep good at night. Well, as

19:36

best as you can, knowing that, you tried. Right. So

19:39

I understand that thinking. In an

19:42

email to her sister-in-law, Jennifer, Susan wrote

19:44

that she tried to go on dates

19:46

with Josh, but he treated it like

19:48

an obligation he hated. In

19:50

June 2008, she wrote about

19:52

Josh per KU TV. He's

19:55

usually rude, yelling and

19:57

barking commands at me. Susan

19:59

said... that she wanted marriage

20:01

counseling, but Josh was unwilling

20:03

to participate. In another email,

20:05

she wrote, "'Every moment I step

20:07

back "'and take stock of what

20:10

I'm dealing with, "'it feels like

20:12

a never-ending cycle, "'but I'm

20:14

too afraid of the consequences,

20:16

"'losing my kids, him kidnapping

20:18

me, divorce, "'or

20:20

actions worse on his part.'"

20:22

Some serious concerns. Yeah,

20:24

no, they really are, but you can

20:27

tell. She is getting to the

20:29

point where she

20:31

just can't put up with this anymore,

20:34

and who can blame her? I mean, listen

20:36

to the things that we're saying about this

20:38

guy. Yeah, I mean, she's trying

20:40

to make things work. He doesn't wanna even be

20:43

involved with it. Doesn't wanna go on dates

20:45

with her. No, and then he's

20:47

still harping on her and causing all these headaches.

20:50

How enjoyable is that? I mean, it's not

20:52

the way to live your life. But at

20:54

this point, according to this

20:56

last email, she's too afraid of

20:58

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in all states and situations. On

23:07

June 27, 2008, Susan and

23:09

Josh got into the worst argument of

23:12

their entire marriage, according to

23:14

Susan. That evening, Susan asked

23:16

her friend, Kersey Helliwell, to

23:18

record what happened in shorthand.

23:21

According to Susan, Josh wanted

23:23

her to buy groceries at prices

23:25

that no longer existed. He

23:27

said their marriage would be fixed if

23:29

Susan made good food for him. Helliwell

23:32

wrote, as quoted by KTAR

23:35

News, Josh said the reason

23:37

he is mean to Susan and hurtful, and

23:39

the reason the marriage is broken is

23:41

because of the Republicans and

23:44

economy and environment. Okay,

23:46

I get it. You don't like

23:48

what is going on in the country. But

23:51

that's not the reason that your marriage is

23:53

broken. Your marriage is broken

23:55

because you're an asshole. Exactly. Point

23:58

on, man. I mean, it's... And

24:00

these people, I say these people,

24:03

it's mainly guys, but these guys that

24:05

we talk about, they have

24:07

such a warped sense

24:10

of reality. It's like they're

24:12

not living in reality. He certainly

24:14

isn't. Josh is living in

24:16

some other world. Susan told

24:18

Josh she wanted control of her money

24:20

so she could tithe. Josh

24:23

called her a religious fanatic. At

24:25

one point in the argument, she locked herself

24:27

in the closet. Josh tried to

24:30

open the door and told her she was acting like

24:32

a child. But how bad is it

24:34

when you have to lock yourself in a

24:36

room, a closet to get away from your

24:38

spouse? Pretty bad. Yeah,

24:40

to me it seems like a relationship

24:42

that is at its end. I

24:45

don't think Josh wants it to be over.

24:48

And I think Susan is too

24:50

afraid of what could possibly

24:52

happen if she does try to

24:54

end. I think he wants it to

24:56

continue. He just wants it everything

24:58

his way. Absolutely. On

25:00

June 28, Susan wrote her last will

25:02

and testament while at work. According

25:05

to KTR, she started the letter

25:07

with, I bike to work daily

25:10

and have been having extreme marital stress

25:12

for about three or four years now.

25:15

For mine and my children's safety, I

25:17

feel the need to have a paper trail at

25:19

work, which would not be

25:21

accessible to my husband. Her

25:24

KU TV, she wrote that Josh threatened

25:26

to destroy her if she filed for

25:28

divorce and that if she died, it

25:31

may not be an accident, even

25:33

if it may look like one. Take

25:36

care of my voice. I

25:38

mean, if you don't feel

25:40

something for this woman, then there's

25:42

something wrong with you emotionally. Sure.

25:46

She is in just such a tough

25:48

position. I feel like she's in

25:50

distress. Oh, she is. But

25:52

she's also trapped. Yes. Feels

25:55

like there's no way out. of

26:00

herself documenting her family's

26:02

assets. At the beginning of the

26:04

video, she said, covering all my

26:07

bases, making sure that if something happens

26:09

to me or my family, or

26:11

all of us, that our assets

26:13

are documented. I hope everything works

26:15

out and we're all happy and

26:18

live happily ever after as

26:20

much as that's possible. Susan

26:22

moved the will savings bonds and other

26:24

legal documents to a safe deposit box

26:26

on August 7th, 2008. She

26:30

was the only person who had access

26:32

to it. Susan Powell went

26:34

missing on December 6th, 2009. It

26:38

started off as a normal Sunday at

26:40

12 PM. Susan took

26:42

Charlie and Braden to services

26:45

at her local LDS ward

26:47

at two 29 PM. Susan

26:49

used her cell phone to call a friend. This

26:52

was the last call she made or

26:54

received in the late afternoon. A

26:57

neighbor came to visit Susan and laughed

26:59

at 5 PM. Susan mentioned

27:02

she was going to take a nap. This

27:04

was the last time anyone

27:06

saw Susan alive outside the

27:08

family home. Josh said he

27:11

was taking the boy sledding around

27:13

5 PM. At 8 30

27:15

PM, a neighbor saw Josh return home

27:18

and pull into his garage. At

27:20

11 45 PM, a

27:22

neighbor heard a car alarm coming from

27:24

inside the pals closed garage. All

27:27

the lights in the home were off. That's the

27:29

strangest thing to happen. The car alarm

27:31

going off inside the garage in a

27:33

closed garage. Yeah, it is

27:35

because you think what would happen

27:37

that would set that off? If

27:40

no one was in that

27:42

garage, almost makes you think like

27:45

either something was going

27:47

on inside the garage or somebody got

27:49

hold of the button. Yeah,

27:51

the panic button. Yeah, it's pressing

27:53

it. Josh would tell investigators that between

27:56

12 and 12 30 AM he left home. home

28:00

with Charlie and Braden to go

28:02

camping at the Simpson Springs campground.

28:05

This is a remote area about two hours

28:07

from their house. The temperatures

28:09

were below freezing that night according

28:11

to KU TV. So

28:14

it's late at night, midnight, freezing.

28:16

Just doesn't seem like the time you'd want to take your

28:19

kids out. Camping.

28:21

Especially. Yeah. Josh

28:23

said that Susan was home and fell asleep

28:25

after cleaning a red stain from the carpet.

28:28

Very specific. Really specific. Between

28:31

9 and 10

28:33

a.m., the boy's daycare provider

28:35

contacted Josh's mother and his

28:37

sister Jennifer Grace. She

28:39

was concerned because the boys weren't dropped

28:42

off and she couldn't get in contact

28:44

with either parent. Josh's mother

28:46

and his sister called the police.

28:49

The police broke into the home

28:51

because they were worried the family

28:53

died of carbon monoxide poisoning. According

28:56

to Detective Ellis Maxwell, there were

28:58

no signs of a disturbance or

29:01

physical altercations when the police entered

29:03

the house. They did find

29:05

two box fans blowing on a

29:07

wet spot on the carpet. Kind

29:10

of strange if you were police walking in on

29:12

that. No, but who hasn't set up a

29:14

box fan to try to dry up an area? Yeah.

29:19

Whether it was carpet or whatever,

29:21

a spill happened. On

29:23

its own, it doesn't seem like anything.

29:26

But there's a lot of things in true crime that

29:28

are like that. Now, when

29:31

you pair them with, let's

29:33

say, a strange scene

29:35

or somebody having gone missing,

29:37

well, okay, then

29:39

maybe they mean something else. Susan

29:42

was reported missing after she failed to

29:44

show up to work. Josh returned home

29:46

with the children. At 5

29:48

p.m., he was met

29:50

by police officers. He had

29:52

Susan's cell phone in his van with

29:55

the SIM card removed. The

29:57

police also found a generator, blankets, a gun,

29:59

and a gas canister, tarps, and

30:01

a shovel in the vehicle,

30:04

Josh could not explain why he

30:06

had Susan's phone or why

30:08

the SIM card was taken out. Yeah,

30:11

and I think as a police officer I would want to

30:13

know that. Like, this is a

30:15

little strange. Why do you have your wife's phone?

30:17

Why is the SIM card out? Where

30:20

is your wife? Now a lot

30:22

of that other stuff, you know,

30:24

you could explain by saying, well

30:26

we went camping. Sure. Some

30:29

of that stuff though could also be used

30:31

to bury a body. Yeah, I mean you

30:33

can, you're thinking shovel, tarps. I

30:36

think at the very least Gibbs,

30:38

you're gonna have to figure out

30:40

how to explain some of this

30:42

stuff, right? Josh was taken

30:44

to the West Valley City Police

30:46

Department for questioning, but he was

30:48

never formally arrested. ABC

30:51

reported that Josh acted as if

30:53

he could not remember the events

30:55

leading up to Susan's disappearance. During

30:58

his interview, Josh was asked why he didn't

31:00

answer his phone. He said he didn't have

31:02

a charger with him and was trying to

31:05

conserve the battery. However, a detective

31:07

saw that his phone was plugged into

31:09

a charger on the center console of

31:12

his vehicle. Okay, so conflicting

31:14

information. Well, you're getting caught in a

31:16

lot. Yeah. Charlie Powell also

31:18

spoke to the police and said that Susan

31:21

did go camping with them. He

31:23

said per ABC, mommy was in

31:25

the van but didn't come back

31:27

with us. I mean that

31:29

gives you such an eerie feeling.

31:32

It really does. He didn't know

31:34

why Susan didn't come back with them and

31:36

also said, my mom stayed

31:39

at Dinosaur National Park. My mom

31:41

stayed where the crystals are.

31:44

But investigators couldn't rely on his

31:46

statements for several reasons.

31:48

He was only four years old at

31:50

the time and he also

31:52

made statements that were false. Like saying

31:54

they took an airplane to go camping.

31:57

Yeah, but you know how kids are

31:59

and sometimes... We've been to

32:01

all that is some truth yeah

32:04

but if you're talking about

32:06

relying on it legally

32:08

it's gonna be tough to do people

32:11

noticed josh is strange behavior

32:14

after susan disappeared he was

32:16

seen cleaning his minivan and

32:18

washing towels. And he

32:20

did not participate in search

32:23

and that always drives me crazy you

32:25

know is it ever a good sign

32:27

no. Because where does your

32:30

mind want to go to right

32:32

away it's that well there's

32:34

no reason for me to

32:36

participate in search efforts because

32:38

i already know what happened

32:40

yeah but. Even

32:42

if that's the case are you

32:44

not smart enough to know that you're going

32:47

to look really bad or do you

32:49

just not care i think with

32:51

him he didn't care. I think it's

32:54

why you like to the police about the phone

32:56

charger i don't care yeah

32:58

you see it there plugged in i don't care

33:00

where you gonna do you have that kind

33:02

of attitude that's how i feel. On

33:04

december eight josh called susan's father

33:06

chuck cox to tell him that

33:08

susan was missing and the police

33:10

were going to question him again

33:12

he was interviewed that afternoon. During

33:15

this interview he asked for an

33:17

attorney and said per ku tv

33:20

they told me that i should have an

33:22

attorney because they don't know what's going on.

33:24

They said i'm pretty much in over my head

33:27

during the interview a detective told josh

33:29

that his story didn't add up he

33:32

was read his rights and told

33:34

he was going to be detained but he was

33:36

let go later that day. After

33:38

the police josh's van he ran

33:41

the car at the salt lake

33:43

city international airport any

33:45

drove eight hundred miles he

33:47

returned the car two days later at

33:50

some point during this trip he bought

33:52

a phone and activated

33:54

near tremonton utah

33:57

near the idaho border so

33:59

it will. was all that about. I can

34:01

understand, you know, you're going through something here.

34:04

Your wife's missing. The police are

34:06

questioning you. This is assuming he

34:09

didn't have anything to do with it. Right. You

34:11

might have the need to clear your head. 800

34:14

miles is a little bit of

34:16

a stretch. Yeah. It's a heck of a

34:18

round trip for a head

34:21

clearing journey. Or

34:23

was it him trying to get

34:25

rid of her body or, you

34:28

know, maybe moving the body, you know,

34:31

buying the cell phone at

34:34

the point in time that he did and turning

34:36

it on when he did. Is

34:38

there something to that? Did he

34:40

not want anyone to know

34:42

his location before that point in

34:45

time? Right. I don't know. Or was

34:47

it a ploy to throw police off?

34:49

I mean, we just don't know. The

34:51

police searched the Powell home on December

34:54

9th. They found Susan's blood, life

34:57

insurance policies worth 1.5

34:59

million and a letter from

35:01

Susan where she indicated she feared for her

35:03

life. The police also found the

35:06

blood of an unknown male contributor. Susan's

35:08

blood was found on a tile floor

35:11

near a damp sofa. Josh

35:13

told the police it had been cleaned

35:15

before they went camping. So can

35:17

I just come out and say it? Things

35:19

are not looking great here. Number one,

35:21

for the fact that Susan is

35:24

alive and unharmed. Yeah. And I

35:26

think number two for Josh, he

35:28

looks terrible so far. And

35:30

all of this, none of his stories seem

35:33

to add up. On December 10th, the

35:36

police searched the Simpson Springs campground

35:38

for signs of Josh's campsite, but

35:40

they found no evidence of camping

35:43

in the area described by Josh.

35:46

Family and friends gathered for a vigil

35:48

for Susan on December 12th. Josh

35:50

hired a defense attorney two days later.

35:53

And then he was interviewed for the third time on

35:56

December 15th on the 16th. Josh was. publicly

36:00

declared a person of interest, but he

36:02

would never be arrested or charged

36:04

in connection to his wife's disappearance.

36:07

However, the police said Josh

36:09

was getting in the way of their

36:11

efforts to find Susan. Ten

36:14

days after Susan went missing, Josh

36:16

filed paperwork to

36:18

withdraw all the money from

36:20

Susan's retirement accounts. The

36:22

police eventually found her handwritten will

36:24

in her safety deposit box. Investigators

36:27

theorize that Josh killed Susan

36:29

and attempted to cover up

36:31

the crime. I don't know

36:33

how you could theorize anything

36:36

other than that based

36:38

on you know, the things that we've talked about

36:40

so far. You know, one thing I want to

36:43

talk about is your wife

36:45

goes missing and ten days

36:48

after that you're withdrawing all

36:50

the money from the accounts.

36:52

It's like where's the hope?

36:55

Well, if you know that you did something,

36:58

maybe you don't have any hope. No, well,

37:00

that's what yeah, that's what I'm getting at.

37:02

Now you could make the argument that well,

37:05

I need all the money I can get

37:07

my hands on, you know we're gonna do

37:09

the search stuff. We're gonna hire people, but

37:11

he's not doing any of that. No. If

37:14

anything the police are saying that he's actively

37:17

getting in the way. On

37:19

December 18th, Josh took the

37:21

boys to Puyallup, Washington to stay

37:23

with his father, Stephen Powell for

37:25

Christmas. Josh and his brother

37:27

Michael returned to West Valley

37:29

City on January 6th, 2010

37:33

to pack up the home. Josh said he

37:35

was moving to get away from

37:37

media attention. Now, I

37:39

understand that there's going to be a ton

37:42

of media attention in these types of

37:44

cases. Yeah. By and

37:46

large, though, when

37:48

you have a person in your family

37:50

who's gone missing, you want

37:52

the media. You do. Attention. You don't want

37:54

to run away from it. You want to

37:56

encourage me. No, encourage. Embrace it. Yeah, keep

37:59

it going. So the other

38:01

thing is most of

38:03

the time we're talking about people

38:05

never wanting to leave that house

38:08

right ten twenty thirty

38:10

forty years. They don't

38:12

change their number they don't move

38:15

why just for that chance that

38:17

they're going to get a phone call or somebody's

38:19

going to return home exactly this

38:21

guy is doing everything

38:24

basically completely

38:27

opposite. What you think

38:29

a loving husband would do it's

38:32

almost like he knows she's dead and

38:34

he doesn't care to even put on

38:36

the act. That's that's the

38:39

thing yeah i'm going to take

38:41

the money out of retirement account i'm going to

38:43

move screw this place. Josh

38:45

is friends revealed he was fired and josh

38:48

told them he wouldn't be able to keep

38:50

the house. Try to

38:52

get more information for the

38:54

police josh's sister jennifer war

38:57

wire and confronted him at

38:59

his father's house she told abc. Suddenly

39:02

i just shove josh into the

39:04

bathroom that point i was like

39:07

drop all pretense just tell

39:09

me where her body josh

39:11

denied knowing anything about susan's

39:13

disappearance. End things escalated

39:16

steven kick jennifer out of the house but

39:18

it was a little hot moment right yeah

39:21

i mean pretty tough to

39:23

be confronted by your sister

39:25

basically saying hey. Just we

39:28

know you killed her just tell us where the body is

39:31

also tough that for your father to kick you out of

39:33

the house yeah what the heck we trying to do your

39:35

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January 2010 a Sunday school

40:41

teacher who was unaware of

40:43

Susan's case Warned Charlie

40:45

that if he kept disobeying her

40:48

she would have to call his mom or dad Charlie

40:51

said my mom is dead. That's

40:53

pretty profound it is again

40:57

You know this kid was was young But

41:00

he has said a couple of

41:02

things that I think people latch

41:05

on to Susan's parents

41:07

Chuck and Judy Cox also

41:09

reported that while at daycare

41:11

Braden drew a picture of a van with

41:14

three people inside and said mommy

41:17

was in the trunk This is

41:19

some pretty compelling information. Well,

41:21

it's true And if these kids

41:24

are you know, really

41:26

remembering what happened? It's

41:28

pretty damning stuff. Yeah, and also

41:31

sad. Oh very sad number

41:33

one that it happened in

41:35

number two that They were there

41:38

they witnessed part of it Josh

41:40

returned to West Valley City on January

41:42

28th to make repairs to the home

41:45

to rent it out on

41:47

the 29th the police

41:49

seized Josh's blue minivan which

41:51

he was driving the night Susan disappeared

41:54

on February 15 2010

41:57

the Cox family held a press conference where

42:00

They revealed Susan told her family and

42:02

friends. She might end

42:04

her relationship with Josh by their

42:06

anniversary on April 6th. They

42:09

said Josh had been physically abusive

42:11

with Susan at least once and

42:13

had a history of controlling behavior.

42:15

Several months passed with no lead. On

42:18

December 6th, 2010, one

42:21

year after Susan disappeared, Josh

42:23

and his father, Steven Powell, claimed

42:25

that Susan ran away with Steven

42:27

Coker, the Utah resident

42:29

who disappeared in Nevada in

42:31

December 2009. They

42:34

claimed that they might have gone

42:36

to Brazil where Coker

42:38

previously served his church mission, but

42:41

there was no evidence to support these claims.

42:43

Yeah, and I think it's a bogus thing

42:45

to say, and I don't think she would

42:47

ever leave her two kids. Yeah,

42:49

I think she would have left him, but

42:52

I don't think she would have left him. About

42:54

a year after Charlie's first interview,

42:57

detectives talked to him again and

42:59

asked him what he remembered. According

43:01

to ABC, he said, we

43:03

can't talk about Susan or camping.

43:06

I always keep things a secret. I

43:08

didn't want to talk to you on this

43:11

long, I mean that many

43:13

minutes, now I'm done. What does

43:15

that sound like to you? Well,

43:17

it sounds like a kid has kind of been coached.

43:20

Or been warned not

43:22

to talk about certain things. That's what

43:24

I was getting. I didn't say Susan

43:26

instead of mommy. Strange.

43:28

Strange. Strange. Detective Sergeant

43:31

Gary Sanders of the Pierce County Sheriff's

43:33

Department recalled, the only thing we got

43:35

out of Charlie that time was that

43:37

he said that she went camping, but

43:40

she didn't come home with him. Then he

43:42

kind of clammed up after that.

43:45

On July 15, 2011,

43:48

Josh and Stephen Powell announced plans

43:50

to post parts of

43:52

Susan's teenage journals online.

43:55

Okay, why would you want to do that? I

43:58

have no idea. You have the money.

44:00

mother of your kids missing, and

44:02

then you claim that she ran off with

44:04

somebody, how's this going to help? The

44:07

only thing that I can think is

44:09

that there's something in those journals that

44:13

doesn't make her look good or

44:15

makes it look as though she

44:18

would be the type of person to

44:20

run away with another man or something

44:22

along those lines. But again, these are

44:24

things that she wrote as a teenager,

44:27

so I'm not sure. Maybe

44:29

that she wanted to hurt herself, something

44:32

along those lines. How

44:34

could you do that, man? How

44:36

could you even think about doing that? Well, and you're

44:38

cold. Yeah. Heartless,

44:40

all of that. Just a douche. On

44:43

August 9th of that year, a judge

44:45

granted Josh Powell a restraining order

44:47

against Chuck Cox after they got

44:50

into an altercation at a Lowe's.

44:52

They were both given anti-harassment orders.

44:55

I think if my daughter

44:57

went missing, had been

44:59

missing for about a year, and

45:02

her husband and his father announced

45:05

that they were going to post parts

45:07

of her journal online for the

45:09

public to read, you'd

45:11

need a restraining order against me

45:14

because I'm coming after you. Even at

45:16

a Lowe's. Especially at a Lowe's. That's

45:19

the best place to get to people. That is

45:21

a kind of good place to have a throwdown. It is. On

45:24

August 18th, the West Valley City

45:27

Police Department announced that they would

45:29

search abandoned mine shafts. In Nevada,

45:31

the search ended two days later

45:34

with no results. On

45:36

August 23rd, Susan's best

45:38

friend, Kirsty Helliwell, and Josh's

45:41

estranged sister claimed that Stephen

45:43

Powell made unwanted sexual advances

45:46

toward Susan, which Stephen

45:48

denied. There is a lot

45:50

of accusations flying around.

45:53

Yeah, not good. I

45:55

understand Susan's best friend

45:57

coming out, but you also... have

46:01

Steven's daughter making this same

46:03

claim. Now they're estranged.

46:06

I understand that, but still

46:08

out there on the 25th,

46:10

the police served a search warrant

46:12

on Steve Powell's house and Puyallup

46:14

in a 2011 interview with ABC. Steven

46:18

alleged that Susan made

46:21

advances towards him. Well,

46:24

she's not here to defend that, is she? No,

46:26

you, you can say whatever you want. Yeah,

46:28

you're going to look terrible, but you can say

46:30

whatever you want because she can't

46:32

contradict you. No, no. And he

46:35

does say some bizarre stuff. Yeah.

46:37

He said Susan was very, very

46:39

sexual with me. She was very

46:41

flirtatious. We interacted in a

46:43

lot of sexual ways because Susan enjoys

46:46

doing that. I enjoy doing

46:48

that. He also admitted, I shared

46:51

father-in-law, daughter-in-law and flirting with

46:53

Susan and maybe some sexual

46:55

touching or whatever. And I

46:58

enjoyed it. Frankly. I'm

47:00

about ready to throw up. Well, you

47:02

know, like father, like son. It

47:05

seems like, you know, both of these guys,

47:07

they're okay with saying pretty much

47:09

anything, no matter how

47:11

bad it makes them look.

47:14

Again, I think, you know, going back to the fact

47:16

that they just don't care. Yeah, they don't. Susan's

47:19

friend, Kersey Helliwell told ABC that

47:21

part of the reason Susan and

47:23

Josh moved to Utah was to

47:26

get away from Steven. Susan

47:28

allegedly told her he is the

47:30

most filthy, foul, sick, disgusting pervert

47:33

the world has ever seen. He's

47:35

in love with me. Susan's sister,

47:37

Denise, also confirmed that she

47:40

complained about Steven and had

47:42

told Josh about it. Susan

47:44

was disturbed when Josh simply

47:47

said, that's his dad. According

47:49

to Denise. Oh, that's just my

47:51

dad. He likes to play grab-ass.

47:53

Yeah. You know, say filthy things

47:56

to you and just go along

47:58

with it. Sounds Like A. Really sick

48:00

guy. Well. We actually know he is

48:02

and will talk about their more later in the

48:04

up. So. On. September Twelve

48:06

Two Thousand eleventh, the police began

48:09

a multi day search on a

48:11

popular rock collecting area near Delta,

48:13

Utah. Cadaver. Dogs were used

48:16

to find human remains and charge

48:18

woods, but his remains were not.

48:20

Susan Power. Later that month,

48:22

on September twenty second. Season.

48:24

Pow was arrested. And. Charged

48:26

with possession of child pornography

48:29

and voyeurs. The. Police found

48:31

thousands of images of girls and

48:33

women getting dressed. including.

48:36

Images of Susan Path. The.

48:38

Victims were photographed without their

48:40

knowledge. To. The victims were

48:42

Stevens neighbors. The girls were eight

48:44

and ten years old or to say is

48:46

a real signal. Stephen. Took

48:48

the photos from his bedroom window in

48:51

two thousand Six and two thousand and

48:53

seven. According to prosecute.

48:56

Steve recorded Susan at Work at

48:58

Family Of and I hope. He.

49:00

Sometimes stopped her. In

49:02

public personally. Edition

49:05

to the Pictures of Susan.

49:07

Steve recorded video diaries of

49:09

himself expressing his love and

49:11

sexual feelings for season, as

49:14

well as videos of disturbing

49:16

accesses smelling Susan's underwear. The.

49:18

Police found images of Steve masturbating

49:20

while looking at an image of

49:23

Susan on a Tv screen. He

49:25

wrote songs about her under

49:27

the fake named Steven Chantry

49:30

According to Oxygen Steve say

49:32

Susan's use Campbells and Toenail

49:34

and Hair flipping. I

49:37

mean we're getting into some

49:39

the craziest asir really crazy

49:41

in this is obviously cringe

49:43

you. Regarding. Susan.

49:46

But yeah, go back to these. Girls.

49:49

Eighteen years old, So.

49:52

You know all of the things we talked

49:54

about. It really makes it hard to

49:56

believe. You. Have. Josh.

49:58

And Steve saying. One.

50:00

Thing. You. Have Susan's

50:02

friends and family saying.

50:05

That. She was expressing a different

50:07

opinion was whose side are you

50:09

gonna take see gonna believe. For.

50:13

Me, it's crystal clear. Yeah, I think

50:15

for everybody listening it is as well.

50:17

In. Two thousand and One Steve

50:19

secretly recorded a conversation with Susan

50:22

where he told her is feel

50:24

he said. I've really fallen in

50:26

love with you. For. The last year

50:28

and a half your about the only thing

50:31

I could think of. According

50:33

to oxygen, Susan reminded him

50:35

she was a step beneath

50:37

his own children. She. Was

50:39

clear. That. She had no

50:41

interest in. Steve. Road

50:43

in the Journal. I'm still convinced

50:45

she loves me. And is sexually

50:48

attracted. To. Me: This. Guy

50:50

his can let go. Some. Mean. Earlier

50:52

we talked about Josh Can acting like he

50:54

was living in a a fantasy world. I

50:57

think I see where you got it from. Everyone.

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conditions. Ed

53:11

Troyer from the Pierce County Sheriff's Office

53:13

said that even though

53:15

Steven claimed Susan was interested

53:17

in him, investigators believe that was

53:20

a fantasy he created and

53:22

she actually hated him. Well,

53:24

I'm not surprised. She hated him. Sounds

53:27

like he was a creep. Yeah.

53:29

Josh Powell was named as a

53:31

subject in the child pornography investigation.

53:34

According to ABC, Charlie

53:36

and Braden were put in state custody

53:39

after Steven's arrest. The

53:41

Cox family filed for custody of the boys.

53:44

Chuck and Judy Cox were considered

53:46

foster parents while the state

53:48

had custody. And I don't know what else

53:50

they could do. Right. As far as the state,

53:54

removing the boys

53:57

from this Environment is not

53:59

helping. The at all. Because.

54:01

Of all this other stuff

54:03

is going on, we know

54:05

some of which involved minors.

54:08

They. Can't take any chances. None

54:11

with. The boys because that

54:13

would be. Putting. Them

54:15

in danger. Bike. We've talked

54:17

about in other upset we said,

54:19

why didn't the child protective services

54:22

step if we're they did. I

54:24

think playfully so. The. Hearing

54:26

was scheduled for February. Two thousand and

54:29

twelve. Josh. Did his final

54:31

interview in December Two Thousand Eleven.

54:33

When he appeared on an episode

54:35

of De, He said I love

54:38

my son's more than anything I

54:40

put them first. I put my

54:42

family first. Season. Pow also

54:44

spoke to Day Line and two

54:46

thousand and Eleven. He said he

54:48

interrogate the sun after he came

54:50

to Washington. He told him. The.

54:53

Most abusive saying that a father to

54:55

never do. Is murdered. His

54:57

wife. After he spoke to

54:59

Josh, he concluded he had nothing

55:01

to do with Susan's disciplines. Okay,

55:04

Well. Let's take this man's word for it. Yeah.

55:07

Because. He's. A standup guy. Josh.

55:10

Told they line that Susan was flirtatious

55:13

and might have given up on their

55:15

marriage. Adding: I think this is Susan

55:17

simply left. I don't know what's happened

55:19

to her, I don't know where she

55:21

is. In. I understand if your

55:24

job. The. The the police

55:26

suspect that you've done something to why

55:28

it's. So. You talk about the

55:30

fact it's you know know what happened. She

55:32

might have left. What? I don't

55:35

understand. Is. Even in

55:37

that scenario, It. Seem like.

55:40

Yeah, no problem. bad mouthing her.

55:42

She. Was for tasers. See.

55:46

You know, Did. Stuff with my

55:48

dad or dinner. Whatever. she ran

55:50

away with a guy from the

55:52

church, or. He really kind

55:54

of. Made. her look bad a

55:56

that to put a negative spin on her

55:58

yeah it wasn't just i don't know what

56:00

happened, it was, well,

56:03

she was this way, this way, and this way. Josh's

56:06

brother Michael first caught the attention of

56:08

the police in 2011. Investigators

56:12

discovered that he paid to have his broken

56:14

down car towed to a

56:16

salvage yard two weeks after

56:18

Susan disappeared. The 1997 Ford

56:21

Taurus was recovered at Lindell

56:23

Auto Salvage Yard in Pendleton,

56:26

Oregon. A cadaver dog

56:28

indicated the presence of human

56:30

decomposition in the trunk, but

56:33

DNA tests were inconclusive. Okay,

56:35

so that's interesting. It is, it's usually

56:38

not a good sign. I

56:40

mean, we've talked about those

56:42

dogs before. They're pretty good at

56:44

what they do. It's been

56:46

said that they don't get mixed up

56:49

between like human decomp and

56:51

let's say some other

56:54

type of animal decomp.

56:56

So let's just say maybe

56:58

Michael's car was used to

57:00

transport her body. It

57:02

broke down and maybe that's when

57:04

Josh rented the vehicle and had that

57:07

800 mile round trip that

57:09

logged in. Yeah. I mean, you're

57:12

throwing out a theory there that it

57:14

is a possibility. Unless

57:16

he had someone else who

57:19

died that he put in his trunk at

57:21

some point. I don't think you

57:23

want to throw that out there as your

57:25

alternative. No. Michael was

57:28

interviewed in October, 2011 about

57:30

the car, but he refused to answer

57:32

any questions. Well, I'm assuming his attorney

57:34

told him not to. Yeah. I

57:37

mean, legally it's probably

57:39

sound. In the court

57:41

of public opinion, it makes you look terrible,

57:43

right? That's basically how it all works. Two

57:46

months later, Michael contacted a

57:49

satellite imagery provider to

57:51

obtain an aerial photo of Pendleton, Oregon

57:53

taken in October, 2011 or later. He

57:58

specifically wanted Lindell. auto

58:00

salvage yard in the image. I

58:02

don't know what to make of that. I yeah,

58:04

I'm struggling with that. I don't know what he wanted

58:07

it for. I don't know if

58:09

it was to prove his car was

58:12

there at a certain time, which

58:15

would mean he couldn't have

58:17

been involved or he

58:19

wanted to picture where the car was. Cause

58:21

he knew somewhere around there,

58:23

maybe he hit a body, but

58:25

you're full of theories. I am full. A lot

58:27

of stuff. You are. Utah

58:30

authorities believe Michael

58:32

might've helped dispose of Susan's body,

58:34

but there just wasn't enough evidence

58:37

for charges. You know, and I

58:39

think as far as the disappearance

58:41

of Susan Powell, you know, that's the

58:43

frustrating part of this case. You

58:45

know, Josh doesn't look good. Now,

58:48

you know, authorities

58:50

think Michael might've been

58:52

involved as well, but there just

58:54

wasn't enough evidence to do

58:57

much with either one of them. And looking

58:59

bad is not enough. Right? We know that

59:01

a lot of people look horrible.

59:03

Yeah. They look guilty as hell, but

59:06

can you prove it in 2012?

59:09

Michael Powell started a website

59:12

criticizing the West Valley city police

59:14

department and accusing them of slander.

59:16

He also made statements supporting his

59:19

father on this website. I

59:21

don't know how you could support your father.

59:23

That's a tough man to support. Yeah. I

59:25

don't know what statements you're going to make

59:28

that are going to counteract

59:32

the things that were proven that

59:34

he had done on January 31st, 2012.

59:38

A website created by Josh Powell with

59:40

the help of his family was disabled.

59:43

The site claimed that Chuck

59:45

and Judy Cox abused Charlie

59:47

and Braden. Wow. This,

59:50

they just, just don't stop. Do they? No.

59:52

I mean, they're creating websites and

59:55

again, they're basically saying whatever they

59:58

want without. Any

1:00:00

type of hesitation

1:00:03

on who they're going to hurt and

1:00:06

how it's going to make them look. Yeah.

1:00:08

Now I get it. He wants his kids

1:00:10

back, but is that

1:00:12

the way to go about it? He must

1:00:15

have thought so. I guess. You

1:00:17

just get the feeling that, you

1:00:19

know, Josh would

1:00:21

do anything. True, not

1:00:23

true, hurtful. It

1:00:26

just didn't matter if it served

1:00:28

his purpose. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with

1:00:30

you. That that's what I get from

1:00:33

his actions. Yeah. One motive. And

1:00:36

it was all about what was good

1:00:39

for him. Exactly. That day,

1:00:41

the police found hundreds of

1:00:43

images on Josh's computer that

1:00:46

showed simulated child pornography,

1:00:49

bestiality and incest.

1:00:52

All right. I'm serious. You,

1:00:54

I know you've just about been sick

1:00:56

a couple of times. Yeah. So far.

1:00:59

I can see your face. You're not doing well,

1:01:01

but thanks for hanging in. Yeah. And this is,

1:01:03

this is a guy with his dad trying to

1:01:06

make her look bad. When they

1:01:08

are the bad. There's nobody

1:01:10

that needs to make them look bad.

1:01:12

No, everything they do. It's

1:01:14

real makes them look bad. Now

1:01:17

I'm wondering when he had, uh,

1:01:19

get to the hospital two hours late, backing

1:01:21

up his hard drive. Was he backing

1:01:23

up this shit? I mean, it's a

1:01:25

really good point. You know,

1:01:27

maybe he knew that other

1:01:29

people were going to be at the

1:01:31

house because of the baby and he

1:01:33

wanted to take precautions as to what

1:01:36

was on his computer. I don't know.

1:01:38

At the hearing on February 1st, 2012, a

1:01:42

Washington state judge ruled that Charlie

1:01:44

and Braden would remain with Chalk

1:01:46

and Judy Cox. And

1:01:48

I would hope so. As opposed

1:01:50

to being anywhere near

1:01:53

Josh or Steven

1:01:56

or Michael or, you

1:01:58

know, anybody on that side of the. family.

1:02:00

Yeah, just they need to

1:02:02

be where they feel safe. Where they

1:02:05

are safe. They are safe. The judge

1:02:07

also ordered Josh to undergo

1:02:09

a psychosexual evaluation and take

1:02:11

a polygraph. He did complete

1:02:14

the evaluation, but not the

1:02:16

polygraph. Hmm, I wonder why he wouldn't

1:02:18

want to take a polygraph. How do you get around

1:02:20

that if the judge ordered it? Yeah, that's

1:02:22

a good question. The examiner found

1:02:25

that Josh had narcissistic personality

1:02:27

traits, including the

1:02:29

inability to admit small

1:02:31

personal shortcomings or weaknesses.

1:02:34

The examiner felt that Josh

1:02:36

had adequate parenting skills. He

1:02:39

had a steady job and no criminal

1:02:41

record. The examiner

1:02:43

recommended supervised visitation several

1:02:46

times a week. Well, that first

1:02:48

part, I think they nailed his personality

1:02:51

down. Yes, absolutely a

1:02:53

narcissist, right? Yeah, absolutely.

1:02:57

The second part of what you said, absolutely

1:03:00

hated. Which part? He had

1:03:02

adequate parenting skills? Yeah, and

1:03:04

that they're going to turn around and they're

1:03:06

going to allow him supervised visitation. Yeah,

1:03:09

well, I mean, it could have been true. He had a

1:03:11

steady job, no criminal record.

1:03:13

He hasn't been convicted on

1:03:16

the child pornography stuff yet. So

1:03:18

he could have not had a criminal record,

1:03:20

but if you're not found

1:03:23

guilty, right? It's like you

1:03:25

have no criminal record. But what does adequate

1:03:27

mean? Adequate's a

1:03:29

strange word. Yeah. Like you're

1:03:31

a good enough parent to

1:03:34

be allowed to visit your kids. I

1:03:36

mean, you say, hey, you're an adequate podcaster.

1:03:39

Did you just say adequate? Ad-a-ka,

1:03:43

adequate. But

1:03:46

I think the big thing here, Gibbs, as

1:03:48

it relates to what is going to

1:03:51

happen, is this

1:03:53

recommendation is huge, right?

1:03:56

Supervised visitation several

1:03:58

times a week. Now,

1:04:00

I'm sure that this person

1:04:03

felt fairly safe

1:04:06

with this recommendation because the visits

1:04:08

were supervised. How

1:04:12

much harm can this guy do if

1:04:14

there's somebody watching him the

1:04:17

entire time during the visit? If

1:04:20

you can, you always want to try to get

1:04:22

the kids with their parent as long as the

1:04:25

parent seems like they're not going to do any

1:04:27

harm to the kids. Yes. Let's

1:04:30

face it, a lot of the things that

1:04:32

we've talked about are kind of him being

1:04:34

an asshole. Yes. Or being

1:04:36

suspected, right? Not

1:04:38

proven. So it's hard

1:04:41

to fault this examiner,

1:04:43

I think, for their ruling.

1:04:46

The problem is it would

1:04:49

turn out in horrific fashion. On

1:04:51

February 5, 2012,

1:04:54

Josh Powell killed himself and

1:04:56

his sons by setting off

1:04:58

an explosion inside his home. Social

1:05:00

worker Elizabeth Griffin brought the

1:05:03

boys to Josh's home for

1:05:05

a supervised visit. The

1:05:07

moment the boy stepped inside, he

1:05:09

slammed the door on her and he wouldn't let

1:05:11

her in. Griffin called 911 twice

1:05:14

and tried to get into the

1:05:17

house. Her first call lasted seven

1:05:19

minutes. The operator asked for details

1:05:21

like her name and the color of

1:05:23

her car. Griffin said she

1:05:26

could smell gasoline, but she was

1:05:28

told that officers had to

1:05:30

respond to life-threatening emergencies first.

1:05:33

She responded by saying, this could

1:05:36

be life-threatening. I'm afraid for

1:05:38

their lives. The home caught on

1:05:40

fire soon after this. Griffin

1:05:42

told a 911 dispatcher he

1:05:45

just exploded the house. And

1:05:47

obviously, you feel

1:05:50

horrible about what

1:05:52

happened to these kids. You're about

1:05:54

ready to talk about it more,

1:05:56

but you also feel really bad

1:05:58

for this woman. She's trying

1:06:00

to do her job. She gets

1:06:02

the door slammed in her face. She can't get

1:06:04

in the house. She does

1:06:06

what she's supposed to do. She calls 911. She

1:06:09

must have felt helpless, not knowing

1:06:12

what was going to happen. Then

1:06:14

she smells gasoline and then the house

1:06:16

explodes. Now she's going to have

1:06:18

to live with that for the rest of her life. Yeah,

1:06:21

unfortunately. But I don't know

1:06:23

what she could have done any differently.

1:06:26

I don't either. I'm

1:06:28

sure she's ran through every scenario in

1:06:30

her head. Absolutely. And beat herself up

1:06:32

about it too many times to count.

1:06:35

Josh first attempted to kill his sons

1:06:37

with a hatchet, but was unable to

1:06:39

do so. He then set off

1:06:42

the explosion that killed all three of them. The

1:06:44

pals died of carbon monoxide poisoning,

1:06:47

but the children had chopping injuries

1:06:49

on their heads and necks. The

1:06:52

hatchet was found in the home. That

1:06:54

thing that he made multiple

1:06:56

attempts. His heart breaking on

1:06:59

their neck and their head. What was

1:07:01

this poor kid going through? Josh

1:07:04

used two five gallon canisters of gasoline

1:07:06

to start the fire. One

1:07:08

canister was spread throughout the home and the

1:07:11

other was found with the body. About

1:07:13

10 minutes before the fire started, Josh

1:07:16

sent emails to his attorney, friends and

1:07:18

family. Some of the email said,

1:07:20

I'm sorry. Goodbye. Other

1:07:22

emails said he couldn't live without

1:07:24

his kids and others gave instructions

1:07:26

for what to do with his

1:07:29

money, utilities and other aspects of

1:07:31

his life. Josh also

1:07:33

left a final voicemail to his sister,

1:07:35

Alina, where he said, I

1:07:37

am not able to live without my

1:07:39

sons and I'm not able to go

1:07:41

on anymore. I'm sorry to

1:07:43

everyone I've hurt. Goodbye.

1:07:46

Such a chicken shit thing to

1:07:48

say and chicken shit thing to

1:07:50

do. If you're if you don't want to

1:07:52

move on without your boys, do

1:07:55

what you got to do to yourself. Why do that to

1:07:57

your boys? So selfish. I

1:08:00

mean, it's a thing where

1:08:02

he says, I'm not able to live without

1:08:05

my son. Yeah.

1:08:08

Well, that doesn't mean that you have to

1:08:10

kill them. No, let them have a

1:08:12

life with their maternal grandparents.

1:08:15

But again, let's go back to Josh Powell.

1:08:18

Everything we know about him, everything we

1:08:21

said about him screams,

1:08:24

this guy was a complete narcissist.

1:08:26

Yeah, all about him. Everything

1:08:28

was about him. If

1:08:30

I can't have what I want, I'll

1:08:33

destroy everything. Yeah. Pierce

1:08:35

County Sheriff Sergeant Ed Troyer told

1:08:38

the Deseret News, none

1:08:40

of these emails arrived anywhere where anyone

1:08:42

could do anything about it. But they

1:08:44

do show that he was intending to

1:08:47

do this before this occurred. And he

1:08:49

planned this event out. This

1:08:51

is something he planned on doing, no

1:08:54

matter who was hurt. Susan's

1:08:56

father, Chuck Cox, said about

1:08:58

Josh's motive, they were his

1:09:00

property and he wanted them back. They

1:09:03

were his, and that's all it

1:09:05

was. He wasn't really interested in them.

1:09:07

I believe that he knew it was

1:09:10

coming down to the point that his

1:09:12

stories, his wild accusations and stuff, he

1:09:14

was going to have to answer to

1:09:16

them and come with facts. And

1:09:19

he didn't have any facts. And so

1:09:21

he saw no way out. And

1:09:24

I think that's pretty accurate. 911

1:09:27

dispatcher, David Loverack said

1:09:30

in an interview that he

1:09:32

regretted how the call went down and

1:09:34

he didn't realize who the caseworker was

1:09:36

talking about, even when she

1:09:38

mentioned Powell by name. He told Dateline,

1:09:41

well, it was horrible. And

1:09:43

this has been a nightmare. And you

1:09:45

see, part of the problem is that, like

1:09:47

most people, I think I was

1:09:49

aware of Josh Powell's story, but

1:09:51

I didn't associate his name with

1:09:54

the story. Loverack later received a

1:09:56

letter of reprimand for his conduct

1:09:58

during the call. It

1:10:00

took eight minutes for him to send a police

1:10:03

car and 13 minutes for

1:10:05

a car to get to the home. He

1:10:07

violated department policies and failed

1:10:09

to recognize red flags that

1:10:11

should have led to a

1:10:13

faster response. And I

1:10:15

get it. This guy didn't do exactly

1:10:17

what he was supposed to do. You

1:10:20

talk about somebody else who I'm sure

1:10:22

feels horrible. Yeah, I think. I

1:10:25

think the way that things went down, could

1:10:27

police have gotten there in time? Could

1:10:30

they have done anything once

1:10:32

they got there? Even if

1:10:34

they got there before the house exploded, I don't

1:10:36

know. Yeah. I

1:10:39

think Josh Powell, like Susan's

1:10:41

father said, had this

1:10:43

thing all planned out. It was going down.

1:10:46

No matter what, what were

1:10:48

the police going to do? They're not going to shoot

1:10:50

into the house. The kids are in there. Maybe

1:10:53

they could bust down the door. Who knows?

1:10:55

We just don't know. Yeah, we don't

1:10:57

know. But could they do it in time? It's

1:11:00

just a tough situation. But I

1:11:02

get it. He could have done things a

1:11:04

little differently. Documents filed in

1:11:06

court on February 10, 2012

1:11:09

stated that authorities searched the storage

1:11:11

unit in Pierce County, rented by

1:11:13

Josh. They found a

1:11:15

stained comforter that tested positive

1:11:18

for blood. Josh's

1:11:20

father, Steven, was informed about the deaths

1:11:22

while in jail. He was

1:11:24

unconcerned and even seemed angry at

1:11:27

the people who told him. Such

1:11:30

a weird guy, man. I can feel like

1:11:33

across the table that you want to

1:11:35

punch this guy right in his face.

1:11:38

I do, man. I see it on your face. Put

1:11:41

me in the cell with him for a little bit back then. But

1:11:46

this is a guy who, by

1:11:49

the things he says, by the things

1:11:51

that he's done, he brings that out

1:11:54

in people. He just seems like

1:11:56

a horrible individual. No wonder his kid turned

1:11:58

out like him. Sometimes

1:12:01

the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Two

1:12:04

weeks later, Stephen invoked his Fifth

1:12:06

Amendment right not to answer questions

1:12:08

about Susan's case. On

1:12:11

July 3, 2012, a mine

1:12:14

explorer reported that a mine 30 miles

1:12:16

west of Josh's alleged campsite was

1:12:19

filled with gasoline and burnt. This

1:12:22

report was made a week after

1:12:24

court documents were released, stating

1:12:26

that Josh told a woman at a

1:12:29

work party, the best place to dispose

1:12:31

of a body is down a

1:12:33

mine shaft. Unfortunately, throughout

1:12:35

the years, Gibbs, a

1:12:37

lot of bodies, I'm sure,

1:12:39

have been disposed down

1:12:41

some of those very deep mine shafts. Yeah.

1:12:45

Some of which we've talked about on

1:12:47

different episodes. And earlier, we talked about

1:12:49

one that was found, but it wasn't

1:12:51

Susan. According to a search

1:12:53

warrant affidavit, family friends said Josh

1:12:55

had spoken about how to kill

1:12:57

someone and dump the remains without

1:12:59

getting caught. He told a friend,

1:13:02

if you knocked a little of a

1:13:04

shaft loose, it would all come tumbling

1:13:06

down, and no one would

1:13:08

really want to travel down it

1:13:11

because they're all so unsafe. First

1:13:13

of all, why is this guy talking to

1:13:15

people about how to kill someone? Doesn't that

1:13:17

seem strange? I find it

1:13:19

really strange. Normal conversation? Yeah. I

1:13:22

mean, maybe at crime con,

1:13:24

maybe when we're discussing

1:13:26

true crime, but not at a cocktail

1:13:28

party. Yeah. I'm

1:13:31

not talking about how to kill people. Hey,

1:13:33

how's those TPS reports? Well, I

1:13:36

don't have them done yet, but let me tell you

1:13:38

this. If you ever think about killing someone, this is

1:13:40

how you do it. Yeah, take them to the mine

1:13:42

shafts. Washington state released

1:13:45

a report on October 12th,

1:13:47

2012, addressing the question

1:13:49

of whether the murder suicide could

1:13:51

have been prevented. The report

1:13:53

suggested that West Valley City sealed information

1:13:56

about the case that may have prevented

1:13:58

the death of a woman. The

1:14:00

sealed evidence would have

1:14:03

raised specific safety concerns for the

1:14:05

children, but that information was

1:14:07

not made available. It could

1:14:09

have been used in assessing the need

1:14:11

for services and the

1:14:13

structure of contact between Mr.

1:14:16

Powell and his children. So

1:14:19

let's go back to this examiner, right,

1:14:21

who made this recommendation

1:14:24

that Josh Powell should

1:14:26

receive supervised visitation

1:14:29

several times a week. It sounds

1:14:32

like they found out

1:14:34

there was information that

1:14:36

was not provided, that

1:14:39

probably would have changed

1:14:41

that recommendation. We don't

1:14:43

know what this sealed evidence is.

1:14:46

I wonder if it had anything to do

1:14:48

with the child pornography

1:14:50

charges. Because to me, that

1:14:53

alone would or should

1:14:55

keep him from visiting

1:14:57

his children. Supervisor

1:14:59

not, I would think. West

1:15:01

Valley responded from the onset of

1:15:04

the investigation into the disappearance of

1:15:06

Susan Cox Powell, and emphasis was

1:15:08

placed on the children's health, safety,

1:15:11

and welfare. At no time did

1:15:13

the West Valley City Police Department

1:15:15

receive any indication that Josh Powell

1:15:18

would murder his two sons. Can

1:15:21

I get that? I mean, that's probably a

1:15:23

true statement. They probably had no

1:15:25

indication that he was going to murder his

1:15:27

sons. No, I think if they did,

1:15:29

they would have made some type

1:15:32

of effort to not allow

1:15:34

the visitation or to be more...

1:15:36

Villagent? Did you say, village-ent?

1:15:39

Diligent. But did they have

1:15:41

other information? Not about him

1:15:44

murdering his sons, but other information

1:15:47

that was sealed that should

1:15:49

have prevented him from even seeing his

1:15:51

sons. That's the question. On February

1:15:53

11, 2013,

1:15:56

Josh's brother Michael, whom many believe

1:15:58

helped dispose of his son, of

1:16:00

Susan's body, died after he

1:16:02

jumped off a parking garage in

1:16:05

Minneapolis. At the time of his death, Michael

1:16:08

was in a legal battle with Chuck and

1:16:10

Judy Cox over the 1.5 million

1:16:12

insurance policies issued to

1:16:15

Josh and his son. Four

1:16:17

months before he died, Josh changed

1:16:19

his policy to list Michael as

1:16:21

the primary beneficiary. Michael was

1:16:24

supposed to receive 93% with the remainder

1:16:26

going to Josh's siblings,

1:16:30

Alina and John. On May

1:16:33

14, 2013, the

1:16:35

police searched for Susan's body on a

1:16:37

property in Salem, Oregon, but found nothing.

1:16:40

Later that month, the Cox family

1:16:43

was awarded control of Susan's estate.

1:16:45

However, Josh's mother and sister wanted

1:16:48

to have Susan declared

1:16:50

legally dead so they

1:16:52

could collect life insurance payments.

1:16:55

On July 1, 2013, the West

1:16:57

Valley City Police announced the end

1:16:59

of the active phase of their

1:17:01

search because there were no

1:17:04

further active leads to develop at

1:17:06

this point. I get that.

1:17:08

I also get the thought

1:17:10

that they were still probably

1:17:13

set on the fact

1:17:15

that Josh had something

1:17:17

to do with it. On

1:17:19

July 13, 2015, a jury

1:17:22

found Stephen Powell guilty of

1:17:24

possessing child pornography. He had

1:17:26

already been convicted of 14 counts

1:17:28

of voyeurism in June 2012. The child

1:17:32

pornography charges were thrown out,

1:17:35

but then later reinstated. He

1:17:37

was sentenced to five years in prison in

1:17:39

August 2015 with credit for 17 months

1:17:41

served. In October 2015, a federal judge

1:17:43

in Washington

1:17:48

dismissed the lawsuit filed by Chuck

1:17:51

and Judy Cox against the Washington

1:17:53

State Department of Social and Health

1:17:55

Services. They argued that social

1:17:58

workers did not do enough to protect protect

1:18:00

their grandsons. A judge

1:18:02

declared that federal law gives

1:18:05

social workers absolute immunity

1:18:07

from liability. Stephen

1:18:10

Powell was released from prison on July 11, 2017, just

1:18:12

over a year later, on July

1:18:16

23, 2018. Stephen

1:18:18

died of heart problems at

1:18:21

a hospital in Tacoma, Washington.

1:18:24

On January 2, 2019, Utah's

1:18:26

Cold Case Coalition reported that

1:18:28

they received a tip that

1:18:30

some mines in Utah's West

1:18:32

Desert have not been searched,

1:18:35

and those that were searched were

1:18:37

not searched thoroughly. On January

1:18:39

10, the U.S. Court of

1:18:42

Appeals ruled that the Cox family

1:18:44

could pursue their wrongful death lawsuit

1:18:47

against the DSHS, but the

1:18:49

court upheld the ruling that

1:18:51

social workers are immune. The

1:18:53

wrongful death suit went to trial in

1:18:55

February 2020, but

1:18:58

was interrupted by the COVID pandemic in

1:19:00

March. The trial reconvened in

1:19:02

July of that year, and in

1:19:04

August, a jury awarded the family

1:19:07

$98.5 million. Oh,

1:19:10

man. That's a big amount. That's a big

1:19:12

judgment. Chuck Cox said

1:19:14

they wanted to use the money

1:19:17

to help other children. And

1:19:20

I believe them. I mean, I think these

1:19:22

were good people. The judge

1:19:24

later reduced the award to $32

1:19:26

million, but in April

1:19:28

2023, the Cox family won

1:19:31

their appeal to reinstate the

1:19:34

$98.5 million jury verdict. And

1:19:37

we say, you know, that's a lot of money. It

1:19:39

is. It's a ton of money. I just

1:19:41

wonder how much of that is a

1:19:43

jury sending a message. We

1:19:47

need to do a better job

1:19:49

of protecting our children. That's

1:19:52

the message that they were sending, for sure. It's

1:19:54

a big message. In February 2022,

1:19:56

a cave exploration crew through,

1:20:00

led by reality TV personality

1:20:02

Dave Sparks, searched a

1:20:04

mine shaft in Utah, and

1:20:06

found bones and scraps of clothing.

1:20:09

The bones were determined to be

1:20:11

animal bones, and a pair of

1:20:13

pants tested positive for male DNA.

1:20:15

Chuck Cox said they were trying to

1:20:18

identify the male. It's been 14

1:20:20

years since Susan Powell went

1:20:22

missing, Josh Powell was the

1:20:24

main person of interest, and

1:20:26

the deaths of his father and

1:20:29

brother took away two potential sources

1:20:31

of information. If you

1:20:33

have credible information about her

1:20:35

disappearance, you can call 801-840-4000.

1:20:38

So, as

1:20:41

we wrap this one up, Gibbs, tough

1:20:43

case and a lot of respect. Susan

1:20:47

goes missing, hard not

1:20:49

to think that she was

1:20:51

killed, and there's so many signs

1:20:54

pointing to Josh Powell

1:20:57

as having something to do with it.

1:21:00

And some signs pointing to her father-in-law,

1:21:03

Stephen, I don't know if he had anything

1:21:06

indirectly or directly, but what a freak.

1:21:09

Well, and also Michael. Yeah.

1:21:12

I mean, could he have been involved

1:21:15

in helping to transport? There just seems

1:21:17

like there's too much there. Yeah. He

1:21:20

did saying, mommy went with us, but didn't

1:21:22

come back. And then obviously

1:21:25

you have what Josh

1:21:27

Powell decided to do later. And

1:21:30

that's just horrific. I mean, if

1:21:33

he killed Susan, which

1:21:35

many people believe he did, then

1:21:38

he killed his entire

1:21:40

family and himself, just

1:21:42

not all at the same time. But

1:21:45

look how many lives he

1:21:47

destroyed, not just the families.

1:21:49

We talked about it. The social worker who

1:21:52

was there that day, the 911 operator, they

1:21:57

all have to live. They do. with

1:22:00

the decisions that he made. Very

1:22:03

impactful. Yeah, just the

1:22:05

spider web that we talk about.

1:22:08

And I just can't get past what

1:22:11

a selfish, narcissistic

1:22:14

guy he was. And

1:22:16

from the very beginning about

1:22:18

wanting to control every aspect

1:22:21

of the people he was with,

1:22:24

you can just see all the way down the

1:22:26

line, the world was

1:22:29

about him. Everyone

1:22:31

in it was about him. To

1:22:34

hell with the feelings of anybody

1:22:36

else. All

1:22:39

that matters is how I feel

1:22:41

and what I want. And

1:22:43

I think Chuck said it, you know, when

1:22:45

he said that those kids were just possessions,

1:22:47

because if he really loved him and cared

1:22:50

for him, he wouldn't have heard him. I

1:22:52

mean, remember, he took an ax to

1:22:55

him at first, and when then that didn't

1:22:57

work, he went ahead and moved forward with burning down

1:22:59

the house. And

1:23:02

it's why I said up front, he is just

1:23:05

one of the most hated individuals. Because

1:23:09

what he did was just

1:23:11

so deplorable. It really was. But that's

1:23:13

it for our episode on the disappearance

1:23:15

of Susan Powell. We've got voicemail, Gibbs,

1:23:17

you want to check it out? Let's hear it. Hey,

1:23:20

Mike and Giddy. This is Lana from North

1:23:22

Carolina. I just listened to

1:23:24

the TTAT Unsolved episode on Christopher Hoyt,

1:23:26

and I have a theory that would

1:23:29

answer some of the questions surrounding his

1:23:31

ex and the timing of her picking

1:23:33

up the children and his emails being

1:23:35

deleted. I think he and his ex

1:23:37

possibly reconnected and wanted to pick up

1:23:39

where they left off, maybe even including

1:23:41

having their children with them. I think

1:23:43

they planned the meeting and knew it

1:23:45

would look like he possibly committed suicide.

1:23:48

I think they gave it a few days

1:23:50

and then the ex goes to collect the

1:23:52

children. This would explain why the ex was

1:23:54

in the vicinity around the time he disappeared

1:23:56

and how she knew he was missing. If

1:23:58

they reconnected and made plans to... do so

1:24:00

via email, this would explain why he deleted

1:24:02

his emails. It would also explain why the

1:24:04

ex refused to talk to the detective and

1:24:06

truth be known the detective may have known

1:24:09

that he left at his own free

1:24:11

will which was why they didn't jump to

1:24:13

investigate later leads or sightings. He was an

1:24:15

adult and had the right to leave and keep his whereabouts

1:24:17

a secret if he wanted to do so. I would

1:24:19

be curious to know if his ex smoked

1:24:21

and if so did her brand match the

1:24:23

butt in Chris's truck. I just wanted to

1:24:25

share my theories, say I love the show,

1:24:27

take care and keep your own time ticket.

1:24:30

No, I appreciate the thought in all

1:24:32

of it that went into that and

1:24:34

it's a good theory. A really good

1:24:37

theory. I don't know the answer as

1:24:39

to whether she smoked or what

1:24:42

brand she smoked or if that match I

1:24:44

never saw anything about it. Right. Because

1:24:47

I don't know if anybody's explored that theory.

1:24:49

Maybe she's the first. I like it. Maybe

1:24:51

she's onto something. Could be. But

1:24:53

that's the interesting part

1:24:56

of some of the unsolved

1:24:58

cases. Coming up with your

1:25:01

own theories and trying

1:25:03

to figure out what you think

1:25:05

happened is appealing to some. Absolutely.

1:25:08

But that is it for another episode of True

1:25:11

Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby,

1:25:13

stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Action

1:25:28

fans. This

1:25:52

is your summer. With pseudo TV,

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never. The delicious ice cold taste

1:26:22

of Dr. Pepper has a lasting effect on

1:26:24

people. Lindsay from Sacramento said, Pro tip, 40

1:26:26

degrees is the perfect temperature for an ice

1:26:28

cold Dr. Pepper. Why is 40 degrees

1:26:31

the perfect temperature for Dr. Pepper? We brought

1:26:33

in Sue from Duluth, Minnesota to tell us.

1:26:35

Oh yeah, I know a thing or two about cold. Oh,

1:26:37

that right there is the perfect kind of ice cold

1:26:40

for Dr. Pepper. I'd share

1:26:42

that with my friend Nancy. She likes Dr. Pepper too,

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