0:00

Are you one of those people who thinks it's okay to drive stone?

0:02

I mean, what's the worst that can happen.

0:04

You ended up driving below the speed limit.

0:06

It's no big deal, right?

0:08

We're on the truth. It's your reaction times.

0:10

Slow way down when you're high.

0:13

You not only put yourself in danger, but everyone around.

0:15

Talk about it. Buzzkill.

0:17

Stop kidding yourself.

0:18

It's not okay to drive high.

0:20

If you've been using marijuana in any form, do not get behind the wheel.

0:24

If you feel different, you drive different.

0:26

Drive high, get a DUI paid for by NITSA.

0:32

Hi, I'm Kaitlin van law. Host of I survived the view.

0:35

Enjoy I survived. We are excited to announce a new launch starting November 15th.

0:40

We'll be reposting our classic episodes from season.

0:43

One of I survived. We hope to reach a whole new audience with these important stories of survival.

0:48

And for those of you who have been with us since the beginning, we think these powerful episodes warrant another listen, starting November 15th, look out for those episodes and more news from I survived.

1:35

Hello everyone. And welcome to episode 2 43 of the true crime all the time.

1:40

Unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.

1:42

And with me as always is my partner in true crime.

1:44

Mike Gibson, give me how are you doing good, man?

1:47

How about you? I'm doing real well.

1:49

Good. You and I just finished up recording a brand new Patrion episode.

1:53

We did on both video and audio.

1:56

It's Patrion episode number 40.

1:58

Yeah, kind of hard to believe.

2:00

We've put that many of those out.

2:02

We also put out a lot of these too.

2:05

So it's true. We put out a lot of stuff, but you know, 40 of those.

2:09

So there's a lot of stuff on pager on if you're not a patron supporter, now's a great time to sign up.

2:15

Check it out. Yeah. We've got a big year coming up for Patrion.

2:18

So it's a good time to get a board.

2:21

It is. We have some new ideas that we're working on for 2022.

2:27

Exactly. It's going to be hard to say, speaking of Patrion, let's give our shout outs.

2:31

We had Julie. Hey Julie.

2:33

Sarah. What's going on? Sarah Britannia.

2:35

Walker. What up for Tanya Holly Levitt.

2:38

Holly mark lemon.

2:40

Mark. Tristin Fisher. Well, thank you.

2:42

Tristen, Jennifer jolly.

2:44

What's up? JJ. Crystal Adams.

2:46

Crystal Sendell Morris.

2:48

What's going on? Sindell Jenna.

2:50

Good old Jenna. Angela beset.

2:52

Very famous. Angela.

2:54

No Hannah. Abshire Hannah SAB.

2:57

What's SAF. Stefan.

2:59

You sweet ass.

3:02

Tanner was going on dinner. Aubrey Would

3:04

Denita Key

3:06

per state that to Nita Teresa

3:08

Hey, what's Going

3:10

on file And Beth Marinovich.

3:12

So there's a lot of great new support gives.

3:15

We really appreciate it.

3:17

We do. We have no vault this week because we have no Teekat no.

3:22

So we only do the vault when we have both episodes out.

3:26

Yeah. I don't want to shortchange anybody on the vault.

3:29

They may listen to one and not the other.

3:31

So we only do it when we have episodes on both.

3:35

Well, they've been In the vault long enough, so it's not another week or two is not going to hurt them.

3:39

It's not going to hurt them. They're still in there. I mentioned that we just put out a Patrion episode last night.

3:43

It's on Matthew, Chelsea bait.

3:47

Yeah. It's an interesting case about, you know, pretty young person.

3:51

He was 21, right.

3:53

Kind of brought in an 18 year old into kind of this, this group.

3:58

They were into some shady stuff.

4:00

And essentially they use this kid, James for what?

4:06

He had his car, his bank account.

4:08

And then when they were done with him, Matthew killed him.

4:13

Yeah. It's a good case. It is.

4:15

Yeah, it is. Got some interesting facets to it.

4:18

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time on Saul and I am ready.

4:23

We are talking about the Edgecombe county serial killer.

4:27

We're headed to North Carolina from 2003 to 2009, 10 women and one man, all African-American in their late twenties to their early fifties, disappeared from the Edgecombe county area of North Carolina.

4:45

They were Denise Williams, melody Wiggins, Travis Harrison, Christine boon, Jackie Thorpe, Ernestine battle Yule Londa, Lancaster Elizabeth Smallwood, Tara Nicholson, jar, niece Hargrove, and Roberta Williams.

5:03

That's a lot of people that's a lot to go missing from, you know, essentially this area in a six year span.

5:14

Yeah, Definitely raised some eyebrows.

5:17

One by one, the bodies were found mostly along seven bridges road in Edgecombe county.

5:23

This led the mystery killer to be called the Edgecombe county serial killer.

5:29

You'll also see this case referred as the seven bridges serial killer after the 13 mile stretch and the surrounding area where he dumped some of his victims bodies And

5:44

we've covered so many unsolved and soft cases where the serial killer had two, three, even four names sometimes.

5:53

Yeah. The media likes to get a little creative.

5:55

We know that naming conventions of serial killers of killers, the Edgecombe county serial killers victims generally came from similar backgrounds and were living under similar circumstances at the time of their disappearances.

6:13

Most of them had had run-ins with the law were Sachs workers and had a history of drug dependency.

6:21

Many of the victims had been stabbed, beaten or strangled before the killer dumped their bodies.

6:27

However, the cause of death couldn't be identified for three of the victims, a possible 12th victim.

6:35

Joyce Durham is believed to have been murdered by the edge comb killer as well.

6:41

However, her body has never been found in 2009.

6:45

DNA helped law enforcement find a suspect linked to one of the victims.

6:51

The investigators had hoped to connect the suspect to the rest of the murder victims.

6:57

The suspect in question was eventually convicted of the murder of Tara Nicholson.

7:02

Unfortunately for prosecutors and the remaining victim's families, investigators have been unable to charge the suspect with any of the other murders to date.

7:14

So, you know, there's a big question here, Gibbs in this case, sure.

7:20

This suspect was convicted of one murder.

7:23

So naturally people are going to ask the question, is this person, the Edgecombe county serial killer, is he responsible for the murder of the other victims?

7:37

Now this guy has never confessed.

7:40

No. And as far as we know, investigators don't have any evidence linking him to the other murders.

7:48

I think at the very least they don't have the evidence required to charge him with other murders.

7:56

I think that's safe to say.

7:58

Yeah. I mean, I think the good thing is if you want to find the silver lining, you know, he's not going anywhere anytime soon, so they can continue to at least work on the case and maybe one day bring charges against him.

8:11

All right. So let's get into the details on June 2nd, 2003, a fishermen found the body of 21 year old Denise Williams floating in Kokies Creek, just outside the city of Rocky Mount in Northeast, North Carolina, or a little Familiar

8:29

with Rocky mountain.

8:31

Aren't we? Yeah, we used to do a little business there.

8:34

Denise, who was a mother of two was last seen week earlier after dropping off a friend at home Denise's family was heartbroken.

8:43

According to the Rocky Mount telegram, she'd had a bright future.

8:49

She was using her natural computer skills to work towards a telecommunications career.

8:56

Then on May 29th, 2005, the body of a 29 year old mother of two melody Lashay Wiggins was found on Noble's mill pond road in Edgecombe county.

9:10

She was partially nude and had been fatally stabbed several times.

9:15

Melody had also sustained blows to her head resulting in blunt force trauma.

9:21

She'd been in a violent relationship earned income from sex work and had some contact with law enforcement before she died.

9:31

According to the Rocky Mount telegram Melody's boyfriend reported her missing on June 2nd saying that he'd last seen her in Rocky Mount on her way to a friend's house.

9:43

Her body had been found days earlier.

9:47

So I think based on that gives police were a little suspicious of the boyfriend's account, but police found out that at the time of Melody's murder in late may her boyfriend had an alibi, he had been in custody.

10:05

It's about as good as alibis you can get.

10:06

Yeah, it's actually a pretty good one.

10:08

I mean, the records are there, unlike in some other countries that, you know, we've talked about on different episodes, a little rare to get, you know, let's say a weekend pass or, and they would have known that if it would have happened anyway, it's a much better alibi than many that we talk about.

10:30

You know, a mom stands up and says, yes, my son was with me all night.

10:36

A girlfriend does that.

10:38

You know, the old time card punch alibi has come up in, in some cases.

10:44

And, and we know those can be faked or you could have a, a coworker do that for you.

10:52

But the old officer Smith at the jail house, he knows I was here on that night, much better A

10:58

year later on June 25th, 2006, the body of 24 year old Travis religious Harrison was found amongst the undergrowth near the tar river, Travis was known to cross-dress and engage in sex work to support a drug habit.

11:16

He was clad only in socks when his body was found, not far from his home where he lived with his family, but his body was so badly decomposed that his cause of death was unable to be determined.

11:31

These victims are stacking up. Well, we mentioned it, right?

11:33

It's a big number in a six year period of time, you know, to have 11, possibly 12 victims of a single killer.

11:46

If it was a single killer, that's a lot.

11:49

It is. And it's gotta be somewhat scary for the public, right?

11:53

As this information leaks out.

11:56

Yeah. I think it always is to find out that so many people, many of whom have a somewhat similar background or you are engaged in similar activities are being found murdered.

12:14

Okay. That community is obviously going to be on edge because they're engaged in, you know, let's say the, the same line of work, but the general public is on edge as well, because you never know, you know, is this a killer who is only targeting a certain segment of the population or at any time, could they begin randomly selecting their victims?

12:42

All of that is scary.

12:44

Sure is about seven months later on January 16th, 2007, 43 year old, Christine Marie boon was reported missing.

12:54

She was one of 10 children.

12:56

And later in life, Christine developed a crack habit as an adult.

13:02

Her sister who reported her missing later described Christine as a loving and caring person who got caught up with the wrong crowd.

13:11

Her three children and seven grandchildren waited for news, but none came to her grieving family.

13:19

It didn't seem as though police were that invested in finding out what had happened to her.

13:27

So there's a couple of things here that I want to flush out.

13:32

Sure. A little bit. The first one is a loving and caring person who kind of gets caught up with the wrong crowd gets, let's say, hooked on drugs.

13:45

Right. And that obviously changes the course of their life.

13:49

We hear that from a lot of family members.

13:52

And I do think it happens to quite a few people.

13:57

Will you do Just covered that on the patron only episodes getting involved with the Wrong

14:04

crowd. Yeah. The victim got involved with the wrong crowd, ultimately lost his life.

14:10

And then the second point is in from Christine's family's point of view, it not seeming as though police were all that interested.

14:21

Right. And trying to find out what happened to her.

14:24

This is something that we have heard or seen in the research time and time.

14:30

Again, we do people levying the accusation against the police that because the victim is a sex worker or because the victim was a drug user that they just weren't a priority, a priority.

14:46

The police weren't all that interested in, in solving their murder.

14:52

Now, is that true in, in all the cases where that accusation is levied?

14:57

I'm sure it's not, is it true in some I believe it is.

15:01

Yeah. And it's kind of a sad thing we have both said on numerous occasions, it shouldn't make a difference.

15:09

What line of work the victim was in whether they were in the grips of, let's say a drug addiction, they were murdered and their, and their murder should be treated as anyone.

15:24

Else's, they're a person, they're a person.

15:26

So that investigation should move forward.

15:29

It should be given the, the care and the priority as anyone else's.

15:35

I firmly believe that.

15:37

And it kind of ticks me off when it's proven that that was not the case.

15:42

Right. Treat it less than four months later on May 22nd, 2007, the mother of 34 year old Jackie Nicky, Leah Thor reported her missing.

15:54

It would be another three months before her severely decomposed body was found behind an abandoned house near the seven bridges road on August 17th.

16:05

Jackie was the first victim to be found near the infamous road.

16:09

But her cause of death, couldn't be determined.

16:13

And Jackie couldn't be immediately identified due to the state of her remains.

16:21

Then we keep hearing about how the composition of the remains were in all these cases.

16:25

It seems like So far.

16:26

So we're going through the years.

16:29

But the one thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the months we're talking about may June, okay, these are warm months in North Carolina.

16:41

And so obviously the rate of decomposition is going to be so much faster than it would be.

16:50

If we were talking about, you know, December, January, something like that.

16:54

Even in North Carolina, a few weeks after Jackie Thorpe went missing 46 year old, Joyce Renee Durham also disappeared.

17:03

She was last seen around 2:30 PM on Harper street in Rocky, Mount on June 17th.

17:11

And we mentioned this earlier in Joyce, Renee Durham is often considered a possible 12th victim of this serial killer in February, 2008, 50 year old Ernestine battle sister reported her missing.

17:28

According to GQ magazine, the mother of two had been in and out of the correction system for almost 10 years for drug and prostitution related offenses.

17:39

Ernestine was in the grip of drug addiction, but was still very close to her family.

17:45

And she maintained contact with them.

17:49

And this is something that I think kind of runs the gamut in the cases that we research.

17:56

You have individuals who are addicted to drugs.

18:01

Many of them don't have contact with their family.

18:07

And therefore when they do go missing, oftentimes people don't realize it.

18:15

No, because they're not staying in contact with anybody.

18:17

So, But that wasn't the case here.

18:20

Ernestine had also lived close to the previous victim, Jackie Thor as reported by the Rocky Mount telegram a month after Ernestine was last, seen a farmer found her skeletonized remains near the seven bridges road and Gibbs.

18:37

This was pretty much the exact location where Jackie Thorpe had been found.

18:42

So it makes You feel like probably as a serial killer.

18:46

Well, it seems as though, and not to be callous, but it's a dumping ground, right?

18:52

For a killer, maybe because they're familiar with the area they feel as though they know the traffic patterns well enough that they're not going to be spotted.

19:04

It's kind of hard not to put these together.

19:07

When, you know, they're, they're found along this same stretch of road, some of the victims are found essentially in the same exact location.

19:17

The coroner was unable to determine a cause of death at Ernestine's autopsy.

19:23

Given the severe state of decomposition, I

19:27

do find interesting is if it is a serial killer, which obviously we assume it is, he's not stuck on a certain age group.

19:36

I mean, so far the victims range from 24 up to 50 years old.

19:41

Yeah. And I think that varies by killer, right?

19:44

We have seen killers who have a type and they kind of stick to that type when they're stalking, selecting their victims.

19:54

And then we've seen killers who maybe like this one don't have an exact type.

20:02

As far as age, the age ranges span, you know, many, many years.

20:08

Yeah. I don't know what that tells us about the killer.

20:11

I don't know if it tells us anything.

20:13

I just think that some killers are very rigid.

20:19

Yes. When it comes to victim selection, maybe some are not as rigid and are more opportunistic.

20:29

I think you're spot on with that. I hope I

20:30

am on February 5th, 2009, a 37 year old mother of two Yolanda.

20:36

Renee Lancaster went missing after a fight with her boyfriend, nicknamed snap Yolanda started using drugs and alcohol in her teen years.

20:47

She soon fell in with a rough crowd.

20:50

She was arrested multiple times for petty offenses.

20:53

At the time of her disappearance, she lived with her boyfriend in what was described in a number of different outlets, as less than desirable housing conditions.

21:06

And then just a week later, the nude body of a woman was found near a soccer field along Melton drive in Rocky Mount.

21:15

This was 33 year old Elizabeth Jane Smallwood and local police didn't even know that she had been missing according to w R a L news.

21:26

When investigators looked into Elizabeth background, they discovered that she had very little contact with her family.

21:34

So no one was really sure when she had been last seen.

21:40

So it kind of goes to what you said a little bit ago, right?

21:44

Yeah. We see it in so many different cases that sometimes when a victim is found, nobody even knows they're missing just because they have so little contact with maybe not just even their family, but really anyone friends or it's kind of sad.

22:02

It is sad. Elizabeth had prior charges relating to prostitution, assault, drug, possession, robbery, and resisting arrest.

22:12

The medical examiner estimated Elisabeth's body could have remained where it was dumped anywhere from six months to a year, the cause of death was noted as undetermined.

22:24

However, the autopsy revealed Elizabeth had likely died because of homicidal violence.

22:30

We've seen that a few times as well.

22:33

Yeah. They don't have enough information to make a conclusive ruling, but their best estimation is that they were murdered.

22:42

Yeah. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break.

22:45

You know, some days can be a real struggle. The good news is I'm having a lot less of those since I found true Nigel, I love it.

22:51

Tru Niagen helps fuel the cells, energy engines, maintain cellular metabolism and even supports heart health in combination with a healthy lifestyle with 13 published human clinical studies and backed by Nobel prize winners.

23:04

True nitrogen is a supplement that's clinically proven to boost NAD levels and essential coenzyme required for cellular energy and repair since taking true nitrogen, I have more resiliency and it helps my muscles recover.

23:17

I just have more zest for life.

23:19

Add more vitality to your life today with true nights right now, new customers can save 10% on their first purchase by going to Tru niagen.com/unsolved and use code unsolved that's T R U N I a G n.com/unsolved code unsolved to save 10% on your first purchase.

23:39

Tru niagen.com/unsolved code on salt.

23:43

These statements have not evaluated by the food and drug administration.

23:46

This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.

23:52

This podcast is sponsored by better help online therapy.

23:55

We talk about better help a lot on this show.

23:57

In this month, we're discussing some of the stigmas around mental health.

24:01

For example, some people think you should wait until things are unbearable to go to therapy, but that isn't true.

24:07

Therapy is a tool to utilize before things get worse and it can help you avoid those lows.

24:12

And we've been taught that mental health shouldn't be a part of normal life.

24:15

That's wrong too. We take care of our bodies with the gym, the doctor and nutrition.

24:19

We should be focusing on our minds just as much better help us customized online therapy that offers video phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist.

24:28

So you don't have to see anyone on camera.

24:31

If you don't want to, it's much more affordable than in-person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist and under 48 hours, give it a try and see why over 2 million people have used better help online therapy and true crime all the time.

24:44

Unsolved listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com slash all the time.

24:50

That's better. aglp.com/all the time.

24:55

So we've talked about a large number of African-American women who disappeared, who were found murdered or at the very least found dead, even if they couldn't determine that they were murdered.

25:12

I think one of the things that was very clear from the research is that many of the families, if not all of the families of the missing women did not feel as though the police had done enough or done very much to help or to investigate.

25:32

And that could have been a combination of the fact that they were sex workers or drug users and African-American Well,

25:40

and to add on to that, there were no national news stories and really not much in the way of local airtime devoted to what was really an alarming trend.

25:54

I mean, if you look at it, you would have to say that it was newsworthy.

25:59

If that's the right way for me to say it, a large number of women have gone missing a large number of women had been found dead in what 13 miles stretch, a 13 mile stretch in, you know, over a number of years, that should be alarming to anyone.

26:23

We think it would be something that one you'd want to make sure there was awareness about it for safety.

26:28

Sure. And then secondly, to assist with the investigation And

26:33

I'm thinking, you know, as, as a paper, as a television outlet, are you telling me that this is not a story that would make headlines would grab people's attention, let alone that you might be doing some good by disseminating this information, you know, get down to the core of it.

26:54

You know, newspapers are all about circulation.

26:58

Yeah. Television is all about ratings, right?

27:01

That's why you see those teasers about, you know, something that's made to kind of grab your attention to me, this is a story that would grab people's attention.

27:12

I would think so. So what is the only logical conclusion that people can make from this, especially the victim's families.

27:21

And it goes back to exactly what you said.

27:23

These are African-American women, many of whom were known to have engaged in sex work and or drugs.

27:32

Yeah. And so we don't want to air that story, Which

27:36

would be frustrating as a parent or a family member of the victim.

27:41

Y I can tell you right now Gibbs, and you know, this is something that you and I don't bring into the conversation unless it's warranted, but where we live, if the number of individuals that we've already talked about so far, and we have more to talk about had gone missing, had been found dead and they were white females.

28:03

That story would be on our news.

28:05

There is no doubt in my mind.

28:08

Oh, absolutely. And that is frustrating to me on February 29th, 2009, the father of 29 year old mother of one, Tara Shaniece Nicholson reported his daughter missing.

28:22

According to the Winston Salem journal, Tara had a history of sex work, drug abuse and jail time.

28:29

GQ magazine reported that Tara and her boyfriend had been living with her father, but things became so strained.

28:36

He eventually kicked the pair out.

28:38

Tara and her boyfriend took to squatting in a house and an impoverished part of Rocky Mount.

28:44

Two weeks later, her body was found by hunters near seven bridges road, a few miles north of town.

28:51

According to court documents, terror was new to except for socks and a bra, which was pulled up over her breasts, a purple bracelet, a black t-shirt and black underwear were found near her body.

29:05

Tara had sustained numerous injuries, including bruising, a fractured hyoid bone, a subdural hemorrhage and scratches because she'd been lying in the woods for several days.

29:18

It wasn't possible for the medical examiner to determine an exact time of death.

29:24

What was determined was that Tara had been killed by strangulation That

29:30

bone broken in her neck. You can probably imagine that the strangulation was pretty forced Just

29:36

over two months later, 31 year old sex worker journeys, Hargrove was reported missing by her family on May 2nd nickname, sunshine journeys dropped out of school in her early teen years and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

29:53

According to GQ magazine.

29:55

In the years that followed journeys often love to write rap lyrics, but her addiction to drugs gradually took over.

30:04

She was last seen after visiting her family to ask to borrow money.

30:08

According to the Rocky Mount telegram, a search was conducted in the local area, but there was no trace of journeys until two months later, her badly beaten body was found in a wooded area about 180 yards away from seven bridges road on June 29th, she was found nude except for a few items of jewelry.

30:32

W R a L news reported that the police didn't give out any information as to jar nieces cause of death.

30:43

But her mother told the outlet that the sheriff told her that journey's was likely strangled and Gibbs.

30:50

There were no further similar disappearances or murders for the remainder of 2009.

30:57

I gives let's take a quick break to talk about high chew.

30:59

I'm not exaggerating high chew has changed my level of happiness.

31:03

It makes me want to tell everybody about this candy Hi-Chew comes in over 200 flavors.

31:08

It first launched in Japan in 1975.

31:10

I love them all. Mainly because the candy tastes like what it says it is.

31:16

I think if I have to pick one, my favorite is the pina colada and it has such a unique chewy texture.

31:22

It's not gum. It's not taffy.

31:24

It's really unlike anything else.

31:27

There's no artificial flavor taste at all.

31:29

Pina colada tastes like peanut Kolata mango tastes like mango.

31:33

High chew uses concentrated fruit, juices, and purees.

31:36

So every time you put a piece of high chew in your mouth, you experienced an explosion of flavors.

31:42

It's pretty simple. High chew makes people happy and happy.

31:45

People smile more. We want you to love high chew.

31:48

As much as we do visit www.high-chew.com/win that's HII dash C H E w.com forward slash w I N.

32:00

And enter to win an exclusive bucket full of high chew candy and sweat.

32:04

While you're there, check out how you can become a member of the high chew chew crew, which is an exclusive club where you receive special offers and all of the cool things go to high chew.com/win.

32:16

The associated press reported on.

32:19

Some of the things gives that you and I kind of have already talked about, right?

32:23

That these families felt that they were really kind of in a fight with law enforcement to get them to proactively investigate what had happened to their loved ones.

32:35

And isn't it a shame that you have to get Law enforcement to be proactive And,

32:42

or a shame that you feel that way.

32:44

Because again, I don't know what lawn law enforcement was doing.

32:50

What I do know is that the families felt as though they weren't doing what they should have been doing.

32:58

So to me, that's, that's a shame even to have to feel Sure.

33:03

I don't know if that's a lack of communication or just lack of investigation.

33:08

And it could be a little bit of both.

33:09

The other thing that came up in the research was that law enforcement hadn't even made any type of formal statement, warning the community that a serial predator may be on the loose.

33:23

And I can understand maybe not doing it after the first victim is found maybe even the second victim, but when you get, you know, 6, 7, 8 victims who are found within, you know, a span of not, not that long of a period of time, okay, maybe we need to put something out there.

33:45

Now there's a balance there, right?

33:48

Between informing the public and inducing panic, right?

33:54

You can find a way to get it out.

33:56

There. Maybe ends a big, maybe you save somebody's life.

34:00

Yeah. You get somebody to come forward and say, Hey, I know something about one of the murders or all the murders.

34:07

I know this was a, a point of contention with the family that not only did they feel as though the police weren't doing their job investigating, they weren't even, you know, notifying the public, the families and friends of journey's Hargrove, Tara Nicholson, melody, Wiggins, Ernestine battle, and Jackie Thor felt so strongly about the need to advocate for their daughters and sisters that they established a community group called moms, which stood for murdered or missing sisters.

34:43

They organize billboards with photos of their loved ones to prompt the public, to come forward.

34:50

And this can work.

34:51

We've seen this work in some cases.

34:54

Sure have obviously there's that movie, right?

34:58

Three billboards outside of ebbing, Missouri.

35:02

It's been a while since I've seen that movie.

35:04

From what I remember, I believe it's based on a true story, but we've seen where people have taken this route over the years.

35:14

Yeah. We've done a handful of stories where billboards were involved with helping the investigators to try to find who killed the victim.

35:24

Well, at the very least it cannot hurt, right?

35:27

If it brings in one tip or it spurs one person to come forward and say, I might know something, you know, that gives the police, the lead that they need to go on New,

35:43

that you Can. Now, another problem that's been brought up a lot in this case is that law enforcement didn't link the murder of the first victim, Denise Williams and the third victim, Travis Harrison, with the other victims.

35:59

Initially, despite all the similarities, Denise was not involved as a sex worker, but Travis had been, his body was found only a mile away from where Elizabeth Smallwood was discovered in early 2009, investigators maintain that there was insufficient evidence to connect Denise and Travis's murders with the others.

36:24

But Travis's mother felt that if he was dressed as a woman, when he was murdered, this could have made him a target.

36:33

And we know they never found what he was dressed.

36:35

And he just had his socks on at the time that they discovered his body.

36:39

So I think she makes a good point.

36:42

Yeah. We talked about it. He was known to wear women's clothing.

36:45

And I think you can make that argument that the attacker might have thought that Travis was a woman from the way that he was dressed and selected him as his next victim, because you do kind of have to look at it as the outlier, right.

37:07

Travis is the lone male.

37:09

So if you're working off the theory that this is a serial killer, that all these murders are connected, you kind of have to explain Travis's murder in the series.

37:21

And I do feel as though this is a good, possible explanation.

37:28

Yeah. So Gibbs, at this point, police have 11 unsolved murders or missing persons to investigate over a six year period.

37:36

If just one killer was responsible, he'd been active for considerable amount of time.

37:43

He was most likely, very skilled at preying upon his victims, killing them, and then dumping their bodies while avoiding detection.

37:53

I think Local

37:55

investigators, we're having a tough time and we're going to continue having a tough time finding this killer without According

38:04

to the Winston Salem journal, the Edgecombe county Sheriff's office formed a task force in June, 2009 to consult with the state bureau of investigation and the FBI to help catch the killer.

38:18

The investigators were able to link some of the victims together with the help of their families.

38:23

According to profilers, there was a single killer who lived in or around the area.

38:30

And he had targeted the victims.

38:33

A reward totaling $20,000 was offered for information leading directly to an arrest and conviction or the discovery of the remaining victims.

38:44

And I do think this is important, right?

38:47

Number one, asking for help.

38:49

Sure. I always think is important.

38:51

And then, you know, once you get that help you get the experts in on the case, you have profilers who come to the conclusion that this is a single killer.

39:03

This is a serial killer who has murdered all of these victims because I think that's very important.

39:11

It is right. Are we dealing with one killer or multiple killers?

39:17

And this determination of a single killer is very important to the investigation.

39:22

During the investigation.

39:24

Police also went back through their records to track down local men who they knew had a history of using sex workers, but no new leads surfaced out of this pool of potential persons of interest.

39:37

The police eliminated anyone in the victim's immediate social circles as being involved in each murder or whether any of the deaths were perhaps related to unpaid drug debts.

39:51

So they're going through and checking the boxes, right?

39:53

Making sure that everything's been covered.

39:56

Following the murder of Tara Nicholson police were able to gather some DNA evidence.

40:02

They found traces of semen on Tara's body at her autopsy.

40:07

This was the breakthrough that investigators needed.

40:11

The DNA was sent off to the lab and when the results came back, there was a match.

40:16

The DNA was identified as belonging to a man from Rocky Mount.

40:22

He was 31 year old Antwan, Maurice Pittman.

40:25

He had a lengthy criminal record for things such as drunk, driving theft, assault, resisting arrest, providing alcohol to minors and the attempted rape of a child at the time he was living with his mother and girlfriend Sounds

40:42

a potentially Dangerous.

40:44

Pitman was born in Rocky Mount on July 15th, 1978.

40:49

He didn't know his father growing up.

40:51

He was raised solely by his mom from early childhood.

40:56

He had learning disabilities during his early teen years.

41:00

Pitman lived with his grandparents in the rural community of Whitakers and attended high school in Tarbor.

41:07

He often visited the seven bridges road area where the bodies, Tara Nicholson, Jackie Thorpe, Ernestine battle, and journey's Hargrove were later found within a 10 mile radius.

41:20

Pitman had a tough time keeping on the straight and narrow, and he became known to local police as a team.

41:28

His behavior escalated pretty quickly.

41:31

He dropped out of high school in the ninth grade when he was 16 years old, he was arrested for attempting to rape a two year old child who lived nearby that is sickening, very sick, but Pitman struck a plea deal, pleading guilty to taking indecent liberties with the minor, which allowed him to be released on probation on a three-year scent.

41:57

And you know, that ticks me off. It Does.

41:59

And again, we don't always know the details of these types of cases.

42:06

Right. What really did they have against him?

42:09

Were some of the parties involved, willing to testify?

42:13

Obviously that probably the two year old couldn't.

42:16

So you just don't know maybe that that plea deal was necessary.

42:21

Yeah. Yeah. And he was 16 years old. So I'm assuming they took that into consideration as well.

42:27

Yeah, but it's still a very nasty heinous crime.

42:30

And even though he got off really on probation, there were strict conditions attached.

42:36

He had to register as a sex offender, according to investigative reporter, Mike Hickson ball Pittman was required to spend 90 days in juvenile offender rehab, which was described Gibbs is kind of like a bootcamp, but he was only a third of the way through his day.

42:57

When he got into a fight, he was kicked out of the program and placed under house arrest with his mother as a result.

43:06

It sounds like he got the better end of that Deal.

43:07

Well, depending on what he thought about this bootcamp, how bad is house arrest in your mom's house compared to jail prison?

43:20

Maybe what was a harsh bootcamp?

43:22

I don't, I don't know. Hey, ma I want some of those on.

43:25

Yeah, Exactly. I mean, I don't know.

43:28

It could have been the cushiest scenario possible for him.

43:34

Yeah. All right, good. So let's take our last break to talk about air med care network, you know, in all of the unsolved episodes that we do, we talk about a lot of unforeseen scenarios.

43:44

So everyone listening knows that the unexpected does happen.

43:48

If a medical emergency arises an air med care network membership protects your family.

43:54

It also protects your finances.

43:55

Air med care network. Crews provide air medical transport to the nearest and most appropriate trauma center.

44:02

And as a member, you'll never see a bill for that flight that's right.

44:05

Members never pay a dime for transport when flown by an AMC and provider health insurance may not cover the full cost of emergency medical air transport.

44:14

So this is a very important membership to have it covers everyone in your household for just pennies a day.

44:20

And right now, true crime all the time, unsolved listeners get up to a $50 Amazon or visa e-gift card when you join.

44:27

So be prepared with an air med care network membership, visit air med care network.com/true and use offer code truth.

44:37

In early 1996 at the age of 17, Pitman was arrested for parole violations resulting in an 18 months day in a Morgan Titan juvenile detention facility.

44:50

When he was in his mid twenties, he did another 45 days in county jail and had to provide a blood sample as a result of applying for a job, but failing to disclose his sex offender status, following his release, Pitman drifted from job to job.

45:08

In 2003, he was 24 years old and he moved to Rocky mountain where he lived for the next six years on the edge of town, pretty close to seven bridges road.

45:20

And it was over the same six year period Gibbs that African Americans started to disappear from Edgecombe county only to turn up murder.

45:31

Can you make a connection there?

45:34

Sure. Obviously you can.

45:35

Can you say that it's a smoking gun or it conclusively means he's the killer?

45:41

No, you can.

45:43

It could be a coincidence, but man, it's not the type of coincidence that you would ever want to be associated with.

45:50

And it's just going to look even more worse, warm as we move on.

45:53

At one point during 2005, Pitman was found to have lived close to the soccer field where Elizabeth Smallwood's body was later found dumped in February, 2009.

46:05

So, I mean, I think based on things like that, you can definitely make the argument that Pitman was very familiar with.

46:15

The area, had the knowledge, had the knowledge back kind of to what I was talking about before maybe the traffic patterns, the time of day, where it was very unlikely that someone would be coming along at this location, things like that.

46:37

Yeah. In 2006 at the age of 27, Pitman moved again this time into a trailer in the town of Scotland, neck in Halifax county, he continued to rack up more convictions for drunk driving, soliciting and assaulting a sex worker.

46:55

Well, he wasn't a, a pillar of the community.

46:58

Was he? Now? He absolutely wasn't.

47:01

I sure would not have wanted him living next to me.

47:04

The thing that jumps out at me here though, is soliciting and assaulting a sex worker.

47:13

Okay. We know he was in the area.

47:15

We know he was very familiar with the area.

47:17

Now he has a connection with sex workers and being violent with him on April 25th, 2009, the same day journey's Hargrove disappeared.

47:30

Pitman was found by North Carolina highway patrol officers on seven bridges road.

47:37

He was in his car and was asleep with his pants on zipped and was wearing muddy boots.

47:44

That's not a good way to be found.

47:46

No, it sounds like a Thursday night for you, but for most people that is out of the ordinary, you know, I don't sit around in my car with my pants unzipped, first of all, that's number one.

48:01

And then the muddy boots.

48:05

Okay. Could you have been out hiking birdwatching?

48:09

Sure. Could you also have been disposing of a body in an area that was muddy and you brought your boots along because you knew you'd be there.

48:20

Sure could AF and then next, explain to me why your pants are unzipped, but mine are right now.

48:25

Are you talking about why is where no. His, you know, that line from something about Mary, you know, we're all just ping is not going to work here in this situation.

48:34

No, it's not.

48:36

Officers woke him up to find out what was going on and they ended up charging him with drunk driving.

48:43

According to reporter Mike Hickson ball.

48:46

When Pitman later failed to appear in court, he was listed as a fugitive, but he wasn't on the run for very long.

48:52

He was arrested on traffic offenses a few months later in nearby Nash county.

48:58

And by this time journey's, his body had been found not far away from where Pitman was arrested, wearing the muddy boots investigators working on the string of murders had also sent away the semen sample found on Tara Nicholson's body for testing.

49:17

And they compared it with Pittman's DNA.

49:20

They found that it was a match.

49:22

So a month after his arrest for failing to appear in court, 31 year old Pitman was charged with the first degree murder of Tara Nicholson.

49:32

His mother and neighbors told the Winston Salem journal and ABC 11 news that they were shocked at the arrest claiming he was a quiet guy who kept to himself.

49:46

Okay. He might've been, but to be honest with you Gibbs, sometimes those people scare me the most.

49:52

Now I'm also a quiet guy who keeps to myself.

49:54

So point made point taken when investigators looked into Antwan's background further, it appeared as though he could be responsible for the murders of at least eight of the other victims.

50:09

Now they didn't have concrete evidence, right?

50:12

To prove that, but just looking at circumstantial evidence, they felt it was possible.

50:19

The FBI profiler had advised only two months before Pittman's arrest that the killer would be living in close proximity to where the bodies were found and would not stop killing.

50:33

And we talk about profilers a lot.

50:36

You know, I know there's a lot of things that go into it.

50:40

Sometimes I joke about how I could have come up with, with a profile, right?

50:46

Common sense, con there's. There is sometimes a lot of common sense, but I do think the would not stop killing part is probably in a lot of profiles.

50:58

Sure. Especially if you're talking about a serial killer who you believe has been operating over, let's say a six year period.

51:06

Okay. There's no reason for that person to stop on their own.

51:09

And to me, that's just kind of common sense.

51:12

I mean, clearly At this point he hadn't stopped.

51:14

So why would he And

51:16

my assumption is the living in proximity has to do with the familiarity that we talked about, you know, regarding this seven bridges road area, being able to dump bodies, get away without being seen, things like that and where to Locate

51:35

his victims. Yeah. I think that would go into it as well.

51:39

On March 5th, 2010, Christine boons skeletonized remains were located in a wooded area in Scotland, neck, not far from the site where Pitman had lived in his trailer during 2006, it was more than three years after Christine had been initially reported missing.

51:59

And authorities executed a search warrant at the site, according to w R a L news, the search revealed pornography on Pittman's computer depicting women being raped.

52:12

Pittman's computer was also used to access other websites containing what was called rape type content.

52:21

According to ABC 11 news, less than three weeks later, another woman's body was found off seven bridges road between Battleboro and Whitaker's by a man riding an ATV.

52:35

The woman was identified as a 40 year old mother of three Roberta Williams.

52:41

When police spoke with her family, they were concerned to learn.

52:45

Roberta had supposedly been reported as missing by her relatives, but there was nothing in police files to indicate that any such report had been taken.

52:56

But according to w R a L news, there's a different story.

53:00

One of Roberta's relatives claimed they'd last seen her in the spring of 2008 saying she hadn't been reported missing because she had been homeless.

53:12

Well, I think for her family though, they assume she was reported missing.

53:15

So to find out that there was never a report on file, this had to be disappointing to them and frustrating.

53:23

Yeah, I think too good adjectives.

53:25

In 2010, Antwan, Pitman was still waiting trial, but the discovery of Roberta's body prompted the national guard to be called in to help any large-scale search for any other missing women.

53:40

But no other bodies were found at that time.

53:42

The body count finally stopped in January, 2011.

53:46

After the last known victim was found, according to ABC 11 news, a group of hunters making their way through wooded area off seven bridges road, looking for deer antlers discovered the decomposed body of Yolanda Lancaster who'd last been seen almost two years earlier after several delays.

54:09

Pitman finally went to trial in September, 2011, mothers of several of the other victims, accompanied Tara Nicholson's mother to support her.

54:19

Unfortunately, prosecutors couldn't put together sufficient evidence against Pittman to charge him with the murder of the other eight victims.

54:30

According to WRL news, prosecutors announced they would not seek the death penalty due to a lack of aggravating factors to meet the threshold for capital crime, Pittman pleaded not guilty, but his strategy came undone during proceedings.

54:48

When it emerged that he'd had contact with Tara before she disappeared PIM and told the court that on March 1st, 2009, Tara willingly got into his vehicle.

55:00

The two then drove to a hotel where he paid her $20 for sex, which explained the presence of his semen on her body.

55:10

Pitman claimed he last saw terror when he dropped her off at the Rocky Mount library.

55:16

But the court heard from forensic experts who testified that based on the autopsy evidence, Tara died less than 24 hours after having sex with Pittman two sex workers testified for the prosecution, claiming they'd each had separate encounters with Pittman.

55:34

He drove them to a secluded location outside of town.

55:39

Then he attempted to strangle both women.

55:43

Thankfully they both escaped with their lives, but Pitman claimed he'd never seen these women before now.

55:51

The jury didn't buy his story that he didn't know what happened to Tara after their encounter.

55:57

He was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison with no parole.

56:02

He certainly had the ability to kill.

56:05

Yeah. Well, jury concluded that he did, you know, if you take the testimony of, you know, some of these other women who said they had encounters with him, he tried to strangle them.

56:19

We know that some of these died by strangulation.

56:24

We also know that some of their causes of death couldn't be conclusively identified.

56:32

So could they have all been strangled?

56:35

Could the killers emo have been strangulation?

56:40

Sure. Yeah. So I'm sure detectives law enforcement, the prosecution, they were happy to secure a conviction against Pittman for Tara's murder, but gives it had to have been a little bit bittersweet, right?

56:56

Because there remained the matter of the other victims who had been found dead.

57:01

And then you had Joyce Durham who was still missing in late 2012.

57:06

Pitman appealed his conviction, but it was dismissed in mid 2013.

57:11

So you mentioned it Gibbs, Pitman had the ability to kill, right.

57:16

That was proven in court.

57:18

He was in the area when all of these murders were committed, he had intimate knowledge of the area he was known to have paid for sex.

57:29

Yeah. So there's a connection there to sex workers.

57:32

You know, he liked to strangle.

57:33

We do know that he was a strangler.

57:36

So there is a real possibility that he committed these other murders.

57:41

We said it right. The prosecutors couldn't put together the evidence to charge him with any of these other murders.

57:49

So because of that, I think we have to look at some other theories as though Pitman was not the serial killer responsible for the other murders.

58:01

There are a couple of competing theories as to the killer's identity.

58:06

One theory is that some of the women were victims of domestic abuse trapped, without a way out.

58:13

We know that yulana Lancaster fought with her boyfriend before she went missing melody Wiggins boyfriend had a prior charge for assaulting her, but he has a strong alibi for her murder.

58:27

He was in jail at that time.

58:29

And then I think the other theory is that another killer was operating in the same area at the same time with the same victimology and gives, I don't think this is outside the realm of possibility.

58:43

I mean, how many cases have we researched where it's ultimately come out, that there were two, three, sometimes even more serial killers operating in the same general area at the same time.

58:58

Oh yeah. We've had many occasions where they overlapped.

59:02

It's scary. It is scary.

59:04

I think, you know, for a long time it was thought by many criminologists and profilers that serial killers either didn't or just couldn't stop killing once they started.

59:15

I think it's now thought of that.

59:18

That's not exactly a hard and fast rule.

59:20

I still think the majority kind of operate that way, that they don't just decide to stop, but we know that it happens, right.

59:30

You look at people like Dennis Rader, BTK, he killed 10 people over the course of 17 years in Kansas.

59:37

And then look at, you know, ear the original night stalker the golden state killer, Joseph de Angelo, who terrorized California, killing 13 people and raping 50 women over a 12 year period before suddenly stopping and lying low for the next 32 years.

59:58

So, you know, obviously it's theoretically possible for someone to engage in serial murder, serial rape, and then stop for whatever reason.

1:00:09

So that makes it possible, right?

1:00:12

That this killer is still out there.

1:00:14

Maybe keeping a low profile after having seen what happened to Antwan Pittman.

1:00:20

Yeah. Or moved on to Another area.

1:00:22

And that's a definite possibility as well.

1:00:24

You know, this person could have been ecstatic that Antwan Pitman was convicted that I think most people believe that he's responsible for a large number of the other murders.

1:00:41

And so, okay.

1:00:43

You know what, it's now time for me to move on.

1:00:46

He could be operating in another area of the country.

1:00:51

So Gibbs, as we wrap up this episode, I think many people believe that the man responsible for these murders, if not all of them, maybe most of them is already behind bars.

1:01:05

Yes. The most compelling piece of evidence to support this theory is that once Pittman was in custody, the disappearances in the murders, And

1:01:13

that could be very telling it also could support the other killer theory.

1:01:18

Sure. And we just said maybe another killer was happy that they'd pin the one murder on Pittman and said, you know what, I'm getting out of here.

1:01:26

So I'm going to take this, Get out of free jail card and go, It's

1:01:29

get out of jail free. You said get out of free jail card.

1:01:32

That's how I play it.

1:01:34

Okay. So you have a different monopoly set than the rest of us.

1:01:39

I couldn't really afford the real one. So we had To do it by, he just wrote it by hand.

1:01:42

But to me, I think what's very telling is that, you know, when you look at the reporting on this case, the official line from law enforcement is that Pitman is believed to be responsible for the other murders.

1:01:58

So I think that's very telling they don't have the evidence to do anything about it yet or at this point in time.

1:02:06

But it sounds like they're pretty sure.

1:02:08

And I can see why they would be for all the reasons that we've talked about.

1:02:14

Yeah. In 2016, the victim's family spoke to the associated about their ongoing pain and suffering.

1:02:21

They feel that now Pitman is behind bars.

1:02:25

They're sisters, daughters, and friends have long been forgotten.

1:02:29

And I get it gives that that is tough, right?

1:02:32

There's only one family, right?

1:02:35

Who really got justice.

1:02:39

And that's the family of Terra Nicholson.

1:02:42

The other families may believe that Pitman was responsible for their loved ones murders.

1:02:51

Right. But until it's proven, they're still gonna struggle with that.

1:02:56

There's, there's no finality in it.

1:02:58

And that has to be tough for any family member of a victim.

1:03:03

We always want that finality.

1:03:06

If you have any information on the murders of Denise Williams, melody Wiggins, Travis Harrison, Christine boon, Jackie Thor, Joyce Durham, Ernestine, battle Yolanda, Lancaster Elizabeth, small wood, or journey's Hargrove.

1:03:23

You can contact the Edgecombe county Sheriff's office at 2 5, 2 6 4 1 7 9 1 1 or twin county Crimestoppers at 2 5, 2 9 7 7 1 1 1 1.

1:03:40

Or I Gibbs. That is it for our episode on the edge comb county serial killer.

1:03:45

We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

1:03:49

Hey guys, my name is Franny outside of billings, Montana, and Fergie.

1:03:54

This is for you who is seen Jacob because I love both of you guys equally.

1:03:58

So I'm Jacob.

1:04:00

Yeah. I just want to say, I love you guys.

1:04:02

You're awesome. I work at the post office and right now we're doing six, 12 hour days.

1:04:06

So I am flying through your episodes.

1:04:08

Just signed up for Patriot on because I need more as, as the true crime all the time and unsolved, but a case suggestion.

1:04:15

However, the foreman outside of Portland, he disappeared.

1:04:19

I want to do it 2011 and use a young kid.

1:04:23

I don't know a lot info. I just remember seeing the billboard billboards on so interesting case like kind of remember bits and pieces of it, but I'd love to hear your guys' take on it and keep it going.

1:04:35

You guys are awesome thinking.

1:04:37

Well, thank you. We appreciate you signing up for Patrion.

1:04:40

The Kyron Horman case is a big one.

1:04:44

I have worked on that in the past and it's just such a huge, It

1:04:48

is. I know we'll do it. It's been on the list.

1:04:51

I don't know when we'll do it.

1:04:52

As far as team Jacob, I'm assuming that's Twilight, right?

1:04:56

There's Edward, wasn't there a guy named, I remember back in the day, people were a team.

1:05:02

This and one was Robert Patterson and the other was the Taylor Lottner is he Jacob?

1:05:10

I have no idea What you watch that Stuff.

1:05:12

Not me. I actually did watch the Twilight movies with my wife did not enjoy them.

1:05:17

I know that's going to upset some fans of Twilight there.

1:05:21

They were not my thing. I'm thinking maybe it was like a office.

1:05:25

So reference or something.

1:05:27

I think it was Twilight, but that's what I'm going with.

1:05:31

Final answer. Hi, am. I can give you an Aston calling from Indianapolis, Indiana.

1:05:36

I've listened to all for over three years and tell just about everyone.

1:05:40

I know how incredible you all are.

1:05:42

Just the kindness and grace, you all have for the victims of these cases and the level of just overall research and digging into the trueness and the realness of each case you cover is unlike any other podcasts I've seen and heard.

1:05:56

So just really love you guys.

1:05:58

IMT Mike and Gabby. However, team Mike has me a little bit more in their corner for one reason only.

1:06:04

I'm also a huge UK Wildcat fan.

1:06:06

So go big glue. They save and keep your own time ticking.

1:06:09

Thanks guys.

1:06:11

Go. Big blue. Have to have to.

1:06:14

I'm so excited.

1:06:15

I get excited during basketball season.

1:06:18

I do wish you guys the best, but I will say I appreciate all the nice things that she said definitely makes us feel good.

1:06:26

It does. And that word of mouth is huge.

1:06:28

You and I don't talk about it probably as much as we should, but word of mouth is, is a big deal for the podcast.

1:06:36

And we appreciate that.

1:06:39

Hey, how's it promising? Who I, you again, over the weekend was my birthday and my son's birthday.

1:06:44

And I felt like it was the right time to go ahead and come and pay for on number because I finished all of the .

1:06:50

So I appreciate y'all.

1:06:53

So y'all get me through my Workday.

1:06:55

I'm always using, when it comes in on Monday morning to come and start listening to your new stuff.

1:07:00

And I'm actually seeing it.

1:07:04

Ain't the same without Debbie, but the 30 and you have a whole moon or you have a lot more in common.

1:07:10

And I really, you know think he, you know, he's on his game all the time and keep your on-time ticking.

1:07:18

Does that mean I'm not on my game all the time.

1:07:20

I'm taking it to mean that now.

1:07:22

So, okay. We got a couple of team Bergeys here, which is not the norm.

1:07:27

Normally there's way more team givi.

1:07:29

I'm fine with that, but Hey, it's nice to have a little team for a year every now.

1:07:33

And we've got to go into the Christmas holiday feeling a little down, I will say a happy birthday that both of you belated birthday.

1:07:41

Yeah.

1:07:42

Hey, take that. This is Luke a long time listener.

1:07:46

First time, caller, caller.

1:07:47

I was just listening to the Ronald Ward episode and I just wanted to comment.

1:07:55

I'm a nineties baby and went to elementary school and North Carolina and we just so happen to have a paddle and the principal's office think I'm the last of a generation of people knowing what it's like for unusual punishment, I guess.

1:08:15

But thank you guys.

1:08:19

You guys are an inspiration. I love listening to your podcasts and I guess I'm Tina Gabby, and that's all keep your own time ticking.

1:08:30

Hey, who? Doesn't like a little paddling.

1:08:32

Okay. Hey, what'd you do in your personal life?

1:08:34

How many times I had to tell you? I'm sorry.

1:08:36

I don't care what you do in your personal life.

1:08:38

Yeah, no. So, alright.

1:08:39

Pendulum swings back to team UV, which is awesome.

1:08:42

But you know that, that was obviously a T cat episode.

1:08:46

We don't have a T cat up.

1:08:48

So this week, so I played the voicemail on, on unsolved, but it is interesting depending on how old you are, you know, listening to the show, whether you get, you know, certain references, it's just like us being of a certain age.

1:09:03

We're not going to get newer references.

1:09:07

Right. I just don't under, I just don't know what some of the stuff means, but I sure know.

1:09:12

And remember what it was like to walk into the principal's office and see that paddle.

1:09:18

There was a little bit of fear that was induced at that point in time, I was in a Bar

1:09:23

the other day night. And You

1:09:25

said day night, it was a law bar says, But

1:09:31

they, you know, they do those flights.

1:09:32

And a lot of these flights boards remind me of the paddle they Had,

1:09:39

they would make a good paddle.

1:09:40

The Holes in for the little sample cups.

1:09:44

Yup. Or the flights. I know exactly what you're talking about.

1:09:45

I don't do a lot of flights now a days, but it sounds like you're doing them day and night, which is good.

1:09:54

The next time. I'm Happy for you.

1:09:56

Let me see one of those flight boards bend Over

1:09:59

and take a few. Thank you. Think about getting a paddling.

1:10:01

Yeah. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time on solve.

1:10:06

So for Mike stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

1:10:46

Even putting back a few and a few becomes a few too many for a moment.

1:10:49

You think of calling for a ride, but nah, he lived nearby.

1:10:53

What's the worst that could happen.

1:10:54

You get pulled over.

1:10:56

Your insurance goes up, you lose your license, it total your car.

1:11:01

You kill someone.

1:11:03

The result of driving drunk or tragic.

1:11:05

That's why law enforcement is out there looking for impaired drivers to save lives.

1:11:09

So if you think you're okay to drive after a few drinks, think again, Dr.

1:11:13

Silver, or get pulled over, paid for by NITSA Cancer.

1:11:18

So many lives are touched by cancer.

1:11:21

In fact, one in two men and one in three women will be diagnosed with cancer at the American cancer society.

1:11:28

We're on a mission to free the world from cancer.

1:11:31

It's a big mission driven by little things like a ride to treatment, a free place to stay a 24 7 helpline.

1:11:39

But these little things are really the big things because to a cancer patient and their family, they're everything.

1:11:45

And every day we reach thousands of cancer patients who so desperately need these services, but we need your help to get these critical services to more people and families in need.

1:11:55

This holiday season go to cancer.org and join the fight against cancer.

1:12:00

It takes just minutes to donate and help provide a central support to cancer patients and their families.

1:12:06

Don't wait more than one.

1:12:08

In three people will be diagnosed with cancer, go to cancer.org right now and make a difference.

1:12:13

Go to cancer.org.

1:12:15

Are you one of those people who thinks it's okay to drive stone? I mean, what's the worst that can happen? You end up driving below the speed limit. It's no big deal. Right? Wrong. The truth is your reaction time slow way down when you're high. You not only put yourself in danger, but everyone around Talk about a buzz kill. Stop kidding yourself. It's not okay to drive high. If you've been using marijuana in any form, do not get behind the wheel. If you feel different, you drive different. Drive high, get a DUI paid for by Pittman. Hi. I'm Caitlyn Vanmal, host of iStarVive. If you enjoy I survived, we are excited to announce a new launch. Starting November fifteenth, we'll be reopening our classic episodes from season one of I survived. We hope to reach a whole new audience with these important stories of survival. And for those of you who have been with us since the beginning, we think these powerful episodes weren't another list starting November fifteenth. Look out for those episodes and more news from I survived. Hello, everyone, and welcome episode two forty three of the True Crime All the Truecrimeallthetimecom Unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me, as always, is my partner in True Crime, Mike give me how are you? I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing real well. Good. You and I just finished up recording a brand new Patreon episode. We did. On both video and audio. It's Patreon episode number forty. Yeah. Kinda hard to believe we put that many of those out. Well, we also put out a lot of these too, so that's true. We put out a lot of stuff. But you know, forty of those. So there's a lot of stuff on Patreon. If you're not a Patreon supporter, now's a great time to sign up, check it out. Yeah. We've got a big year coming up for got a big year coming up for Patreon, so it's a good time to get aboard. Yeah, it is. We have some new ideas that we're working on for two thousand twenty two. Exactly. It's gonna be hard to say. Speaking of Patreon, let's give our shout outs. We had Julie. Hey, Julie. Taraha. going on, Sarah? Britania Walker. What up, Britania Holly Lovett. Hey, Holly. Mark Lemmon. Let me take that. Mark? Tristan Fisher. Thank you, Tristan. Jennifer Jolly. What's up, JJ? Crystal Adams. Hey, Crystal. Sendo Morris. What's going on, sendo? Jenna. Good old Jenna. Angela Bissette. Very famous, Angela. No. Hannah Abshard. Hey, Hannah. Saved. What's up, Saved? Stefania Suite. SS What's going on? Tanner? Aubrey Wood. Hey, Aubrey. Danita Key. Appreciate that. Danita. Teresa Fayo. What's going on, Fio. And Beth Marinovich. Hey, Marinovich. So there's a lot of great new support gears. We really appreciate it. We do. We have no vault this week because we have no t cat. No. So we only do the vault when we have both episodes out. I don't wanna sure change anybody on the vault. They may listen to one and not the other. So we only do it when we have episodes on both. They've been in the vault long enough, so it's not another week or two is not gonna hurt them. It's not gonna hurt them. They're still in there. I mentioned that we just put out a a Patreon episode last night. It's on Matthew Cheltenay. Yeah. It's an interesting case about, you know, a pretty young person. He was twenty one. Right. Kind of brought in an eighteen year old into kind of this this group. They were into some shady stuff. Yeah. And essentially, they used this kid, James, for what? He had his car, his bank what he had, his car, his bank account. And then when they were done with him, Matthew kilting. Yeah. It's a good case. It is. Yeah. It is. It's got some interesting facets to it. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time console? And I am ready. We are talking about the Edgecombe Moon County serial killer We're headed to North Carolina. From two thousand three to two thousand nine, ten women and one man all African American in their late twenties to their early fifties disappeared from the Edgecombe County area of North Carolina. Carolina. They were Denise Williams, melody Wiggins, Travis Harrison, Christine boon, Jackie Thorpe, Ernestine battle Yule Londa, Lancaster Elizabeth Smallwood, Tara Nicholson, jar, niece Hargrove, and Roberta They were Denise Williams, Melody Wiggans, Travis Harrison, Christine Boone, Jackie Thorpe, Ernstein Battle, Yolanda Lancaster, Elizabeth Smallwood, Tara Nicholson, Journeys Hargrove and Roberta Williams. That's a lot of people. That's a lot to go missing from essentially this area in a six year span. Yeah. Definitely raise some eyebrows. One by one. The bodies were found mostly along seven Bridges Road in Edgecombe county. This led the mystery killer to be called the Edgecombe county serial This led the mystery killer. To be called the Edgecombe County serial killer, you'll also see this case referred as the seven bridges, serial killer, after the thirteen mile stretch and the surrounding area where he dumped some of his victims bodies. And we've covered many unsolved and solve cases where the serial killer had two, three, even four names sometimes. Yeah. The media likes to get a little creative. We know that with naming conventions of serial killers, of killers. The Edgecombe County serial killers victims generally came from similar backgrounds. And were living under similar circumstances at the time of their disappearances. Most of them had had run ins with the law were sex workers and had a history of drug dependency. Many of the victims had been stabbed, beaten, or strangled, before the killer dumped their bodies. However, the cause of death couldn't be identified for three of the victims. A possible twelfth victim, Joyce Durham, is believed to have been murdered by the Edgecombe killer as well However, her body has never been found. In two thousand nine, DNA helped the law enforcement find a suspect linked to one of the victims. The investigators had hoped to connect the suspect to the rest of the murder victims. The suspect in question was eventually convicted of the murder of Taraha Unfortunately, for prosecutors and the remaining victims' families, Investigators have been unable to charge the suspect with any of the other murders to date. So you know, there's a big question here. Gibbs in this case. Sure. This suspect was convicted of one murder. So, naturally, people are going to ask the question. Is this person the Edgecombe County serial killer Is he responsible for the murder of the other victims? Now, this guy has never confessed. No. And as far as we know, investigators don't have any evidence linking him to the other murders. I think at the very least, They don't have the evidence required to charge him with other murders. I think that's safe to say. Yeah. I mean, I think the good thing is if you wanna find the silver lining, you know, he's not going anywhere anytime soon. So they can continue to at least work on the case and maybe one day bring charges against them. Alright. So let's get into the details. On June second two thousand three, a fisherman found the body of twenty one year old Denise Williams. Floating in Cochise Creek, just outside the city of Rocky Mount, in Northeast North Carolina. We're a little familiar with Rocky Mount, aren't we? Yep? Yeah. We used to do little business there. Denise, who was a mother of two, was last seen a week earlier after dropping off a friend at home. Denise's family was heartbroken. According to the Rocky Mount Telegram, she'd had a bright future. She was using her natural computer skills to work towards telecommunications career. Then on May twenty ninth two thousand five, the body of a twenty nine year old mother of two Melody Lache Wiggans was found on Noble's Mill Pawn Road in Edgecombe County. She was partially nude and had been fatally stabbed several times. Melody had also sustained blows to her head, resulting in blunt force trauma. She'd been in a violent relationship, earned income from sex work, and had some contact with law enforcement before she died. According to the Rocky Mount Telegram, Melody's boyfriend reported her missing on June second, saying that he'd last seen her in Rocky Mount on her way to a friend's house. Her body had been found days earlier. So I think based on that gives police were a little suspicious. Of the boyfriend's account. But police found out that at the time of Melody's murder in late May, her boyfriend had an alibi. He had been in custody. It's about as good as alibi as you can get. Yeah. It's it's actually a pretty good one. I mean, the records are there. Yeah. Unlike in some other countries that, you know, we've talked about on different episodes, a little rare to get, you know, let's say, a weekend pass or and they would have known that if it would have happened Antwan. a much better alibi than many that we talk about. You know, a mom stands up and says yes, My son was with me all night. A girlfriend does that. You know, the old time card punch -- Oh, yeah. -- alibi Edgecombe up in in some cases. And and we know those can be faked or you can have AAA coworker do that for you But the old officer Smith at the jail house, he knows I was here on that night much better. A year later on June 25th, 2006, the body of 24 year old Travis religious Harrison was found amongst the undergrowth near the tar river, Travis was known to cross-dress and engage in sex work to support a drug year later on June twenty fifth two thousand six. The body of twenty four year old Travis Rodriguez Harrison was found amongst the undergrowth near the River. Travis was known to cross dress and engage in sex work to support a drug haven't. He was clad only in socks, when his body was found not far from his home, where he lived with his family. But his body was so badly decomposed. That his cause of death was unable to be determined. His victims are stacking up. Well, we mentioned it. Right? It's a big number. In a six year period of time, to have eleven possibly twelve victims of a single killer. If it was a single killer, that's a lot. It is. And it's gotta be somewhat scary for the public. Right? As this this information leaks out? Yeah. I think it always is. To find out that so many people, many of whom have a somewhat similar background or you know, are engaged in similar activities, are being found, murdered. Okay. That community is obviously going to be on edge because they're engaged in, you know, let's say the, the same line of work, but the general public is on edge as well, because you never know, you know, is this a killer who is only targeting a certain segment of the population or at any time, could they begin randomly selecting their That community is obviously gonna be on edge. Sure. Because they're engaged in, you know, let's say, the the same line of work, but the general public is on edge as well because You never know. You know, is this a killer who is only targeting a certain segment of the prodcution? Or at any time, could they begin randomly selecting their victims? All of that is scary. Sure it is. About seven months later on January sixteenth two thousand seven. Forty three year old Christine Marie Boone was reported missing She was one of ten children. And later in life, Christine developed a crack habit as an adult Her sister who reported her missing later described Christine as a loving and caring person who got caught up with the wrong crap. Her three children and seven grandchildren waited for news, but none came to her grieving family It didn't seem as though police were that invested in finding out what had happened to her. So there's a couple of things here that I wanna flush out -- Sure. -- a little bit. The first one is a loving and caring person who kinda gets caught up with the wrong crowd gets, let's say, hooked on drugs. Right. And that obviously changes the course of their life. We hear that from a lot of family members. Yeah. And I do think it happens to quite a few people. Well, you just covered that on the Patreon only episode. Yeah. Getting involved with the wrong crowd. Yeah. The victim got involved with the wrong crowd, ultimately lost his life, And then the second point is, you know, from Christine's family's point of view, it not seeming as though police were all that interested. Right? And and trying to find out what happened to her. This is something that we have heard or seen in the research time and time again. We do. People levying the accusation against the police that because the victim is a sex worker or because the victim was a drug user that they just weren't priority. A priority. The police weren't all that interested in in solving their murder. Now is that true in in all the cases where that accusation is levied? I'm sure it's not. Is it true in some? I believe it is. Yeah. And it is kind of a sad thing. We have both set on numerous occasions. It shouldn't make a difference. What line of work the victim was in, whether they were in the grips of, let's say, drug addiction, They were murdered. Yeah. And their and their murder should be treated as anyone else's. They're a person. They're a person. So that investigation should move forward. It should be given the care and the priority as anyone else's. I firmly believe that, and it kinda ticks me off when it's proven that that was not the case. Right. Treat it less than four months later on May 22nd, 2007, the mother of 34 year old Jackie Nicky, Leah Thor reported her Treat it less than four months later on May twenty second two thousand seven, the mother of thirty four year old Jackie Nickelia Thor reported her missing. It would be another three months before her severely decomposed by was found behind an abandoned house near the seven Bridges Road on August seventeenth. Jackie was the first victim. To be found near the infamous road, but her cause of death couldn't be determined. And Jackie couldn't be immediately identified due to the state of her remains. That's something we keep hearing about how the decomposition of the remains were in all these cases, it seems like, so far. So we're going through the years, but the one thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the months we're talking about May, June. Okay. These are warm months in North Carolina. Yeah. And so, obviously, the rate of decomposition is going to be so much faster than it would be if we were talking about you know, December, January, something like that -- Right. -- even in North Carolina. A few weeks after Jackie Thorfmann missing forty six year old Joey Renee Durham also disappeared. She was last seen around two thirty PM on Harper Street in Rocky Mount on June seventeenth. And we mentioned this earlier. Joyce Renee Durham is often considered a possible twelve victim of this serial killer. In February two thousand eight, fifty year old Ernestein Battle's sister, reported her missing. According to GQ Magazine, the mother of two had been in and out of the correction system for almost ten years. For drug and prostitution related offenses. Ernestein was in the grip of drug But was still very close to her family. And she maintained contact with them. And this is something that I think kind of runs the gamut in the cases that we research. You have individuals who are addicted to drugs. Sure. Many of them don't have contact with their family, and therefore, when they do go missing, oftentimes people don't realize it. No, because they're not staying in contact with anybody. So but that wasn't the case here. Ernestine had also lived close to the previous victim, Jackie Thor. As reported by the Rocky Mount Telegram, A month after Ernestin was lassing, a farmer found her skeletonized remains near the seven Bridges Road. And Gibby, this was pretty much the exact location where Jackie Thorpe had been found. So it makes you feel like probably is a serial killer. Well, it seems as though and not to be callous, but it it it's a dumping ground. Right? For a killer. Maybe because they're familiar with the area, they feel as though they know the traffic patterns well enough that they're not going to be spotted. It's kinda hard not to put these together when you know, they're they're found along this same stretch of road. Some of the victims are found essentially in in the same exact The coroner was unable to determine a cause of death at Ernestein's autopsy given the severe state of decomposition. Now what I do find interesting is if it is a serial killer, which obviously we assume it is, he's not stuck on a certain age I do find interesting is if it is a serial killer, which obviously we assume it is, He's not stuck on a certain age group. I mean, so far, the victims range from twenty four up to fifty years old. Yeah. And I think that varies by killer. Right? We have seen killers who have a type. And they kinda stick to that type when they're stalking, selecting their victims. And then we've seen killers who, maybe like this one, don't have an exact type as far as age, the the age ranges span, you know, many many years. Yeah. I don't know what that tells us about the killer. I I don't know if it tells us anything. I just think that some killers are very rigid? Yes. When it comes to victim selection, maybe some are not as rigid, and are more opportunistic. I think you're spot on with that. Well, I hope I am. On February fifth two thousand nine, A thirty seven year old mother of two, Yolanda Rene Lancaster, went missing after a fight with her boyfriend. Nicknamed Snap, Yolanda started using drugs and alcohol in her teen years. She soon fell in with a rough crowd She was arrested multiple times for petty offenses at the time of her disappearance. She lived with her boyfriend in what was described in a number of different outlets as less than desirable housing conditions. And then just a week later, the nude body of a woman was found near a soccer field along Mountain Drive in Rocky Mount This was thirty three year old Elizabeth James Mollwood, and local police didn't even know that she had been missing. According to WRL news, when investigators looked into Elizabeth's background, they discovered that she had very little contact with her family. So no one was really sure when she had been last seen. So kinda goes to what you said a little bit ago. Right? Yeah. We see it in so many different cases that sometimes when a victim is found, nobody even knows they're missing just because they have so little contact with Maybe not just even their family, but really Antwan. Yeah. Friends or It's kinda sad. It is sad. Elizabeth had prior charges relating to prostitution, assault, drug possession, robbery, and resisting arrest. The medical examiner estimated Elizabeth's body could have remained where it was dumped anywhere from six months to a year. The cause of death was noted as undetermined. However, The autopsy revealed Elizabeth had likely died because of homicidal violence. We've seen that a few times as well. Yeah. They don't have enough information to make a conclusive ruling, but their best estimation is that they were murdered. Yeah. Alright, Gibby. Let's take quick break. You You know, some days can be a real some days can be a real struggle. The good news is I'm having a lot less of those since I found true niaGEN. I love it. it. Tru Niagen helps fuel the cells, energy engines, maintain cellular metabolism and even supports heart health in combination with a healthy lifestyle with 13 published human clinical studies and backed by Nobel prize True NIAGEN helps fuel the cell's energy engines, maintain cellular metabolism, and even supports heart health. In combination with a healthy lifestyle. With thirteen published human clinical studies and backed by Nobel Prize winners. True nitrogen is a supplement that's clinically proven to boost NAD levels and essential coenzyme required for cellular energy and repair since taking true nitrogen, I have more resiliency and it helps my muscles TRU NIAGEN is a supplement that's clinically proven to boost NAD levels in essential coenzyme required for cellular energy and repair. Since taking TRU NIAGEN, I have more resiliency. And it helps my muscles recover. I just have more zest for life. Add more vitality to your life today with true nights right now, new customers can save 10% on their first purchase by going to Tru niagen.com/unsolved and use code unsolved that's T R U N I a G n.com/unsolved code unsolved to save 10% on your first Add more vitality to your life today with true nigh Right now, new customers can save ten percent on their first purchase by going to true niaGEN dot com slash unsolved and use code unsold. That's TRUNIAGEN dot com slash unsolved code unsolved to save ten percent on your first purchase. Tru niagen.com/unsolved code on True niajin dot com slash unsolved, code salt. These statements have not evaluated by the food and drug These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This podcast is sponsored by better health online therapy. We talk about better help a lot on this We talk about better health a lot on this show. In this month, we're discussing some of the stigmas around mental In this month, we're discussing some of the stigmas around mental health. For example, some people think you should wait until things are unbearable. To go to therapy. But that true. Therapy is a tool to utilize before things get worse and it can help you avoid those Therapy is a tool to utilize before things get worse, and it can help you avoid those lows. And we've been taught that mental health shouldn't be a part of normal And we've been taught that mental health shouldn't be a part of normal life. That's wrong That's wrong too. We take care of our bodies with the gym, the doctor and We take care of our bodies with the gym, the doctor, and nutrition. We should be focusing on our minds just as much better help us customized online therapy that offers video phone and even live chat sessions with your We should be focusing on our minds just as much. Better help us customize online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on so You don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to. It's much more affordable than in person therapy, and you can be matched with a therapist in under forty eight hours. Give it a try and see why over two million people have used better help online therapy. And True Crime all the time unsolved listeners get ten percent off their first month at better help dot com slash all of the time. That's That's better HELP dot com slash all the time. So we've talked about a large number of African American women who disappeared who were found murdered or or at the very least found dead even if they couldn't determine that they were murdered I think one of the things that was very clear from the research is that many of the families, if not all, the families of the missing women did not feel as though the police had done enough or done very much to help or to investigate. And that could have been a combination of the fact that they were sex workers or drug users and African American. Well, and to add on to that, there were no national news stories and really not much in the way of local airtime devoted to what was really an alarming trend. I mean, If you look at it, you would have to say that it was newsworthy. If that's the right way for me to say it. A large number of women have gone missing, a large number of women had have been found dead in what? Thirteen mile stretch? A thirteen mile stretch in, you know, over a number of years, that should be alarming to anyone. Then you would think it would be something that, one, you'd want to make sure there was awareness about it for safety. Sure. And then secondly, to assist with the investigation. And I'm thinking, you know, as as a paper, as a 10 television outlet. Are you telling me that this is not a story that would make headlines, would grab people's 10? Let alone that you might be doing some good -- Right. -- by disseminating this information, you know, get down to the core of it. You know, Newspapers are all about circulation. Yeah. Television is all about ratings. Right. That's why you see those teasers about you know, something that's made to kinda grab your 10. To me, this is a story that would grab people's attention. I would think so. So what is the only logical conclusion that people can make from this, especially the victim's family? And it and it goes back to exactly what you said. These are African American women, many of whom were known to have engaged in sex work and or drugs. Yeah. And so we don't wanna air that story, which would be frustrating as a parent or family member of the victims. Why? I can tell you right now, Gibby. And, you know, this is something that you and I don't bring into the conversation unless it's warranted. But where we live, if the number of individuals that we've already talked about so far and we have more to talk about, had gone missing, had been found dead, and they were white females. That story would be on our news. Oh, there is no doubt in my mind. Oh, absolutely. And that is frustrating to me on February 29th, 2009, the father of 29 year old mother of one, Tara Shaniece Nicholson reported his daughter And that is frustrating to me. On February twenty nine two thousand nine, the father of twenty nine year old mother of one Tara Shanice Nicholson reported his daughter missing. According to the Winston Salem Journal, had a history of sex work, drug abuse, and jail time. GQ magazine reported that Taraha and her boyfriend had been living with her father. But things became so strained he eventually kicked the pair out. Taraha and her boyfriend took two squatting in a house in an impoverished part of Rocky Mount Two weeks later, her body was found by hunters near seven Bridges Road, a few miles north of town. According to court documents, Taraha was new to up for socks and a bra, which was pulled up over her breast, a purple bracelet, a black t shirt, and black underwear. Were found near her body. Taraha sustained numerous injuries, including bruising, a fractured high oiled bone, a subdural hemorrhage and scratches. Because she'd been lying in the woods for several days, it wasn't possible for the medical examiner to determine an exact time of death. What was determined was that had been killed by strangulation. With that bone broken in your neck, you can probably imagine that this triangulation was pretty forceful. Just over two months later, thirty one year old sex worker, Jarnees Latanya Hargrove, was reported missing by her family. On May second, nicknamed Sunshine, Journeys dropped out of school in her early teen years and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. According to GQ magazine in the years that follow. Journeys often love to write rap lyrics, BUT HER ADDICTION TO DRUGS GRADUALLY TOOK OVER. SHE WAS LAST SEEN AFTER VISITING HER FAMILY TO ASK TO Borrow MONEY. According to the Rocky Mount Telegram, a search was conducted in the local area, but there was no trace of journeys until two months later. Her badly beaten body was found in a wooded area, about one hundred and eighty yards away from seven Bridges Road on June twenty ninth. She was found nude except for a few items of jewelry. WRAL news reported that the police didn't give out any information as to Journeys' cause of death, but her mother told the outlet that the sheriff told her that Journeys was likely strangled. In Gibby, there were no further similar disappearances or murders for the remainder of two thousand nine. Alright, I gives let's take a quick break to talk about high Gives. Let's take a quick break to talk about chew. I'm not exaggerating high chew has changed my level of I'm not exaggerating. Kaiju has changed my level of happiness. It makes to tell everybody about this candy. Kaiju comes in over two hundred flavors. It first launched in Japan in It first launched in Japan in nineteen seventy five. I love all. Mainly because the candy tastes like what it says it Mainly because the candy tastes like what it says it is. I think if I have to pick one, my favorite is the piña colopf. And it has such a unique chewy texture. It's not It's not gum. It's not it's not taffy. It's really unlike anything it's really unlike anything else. There's no artificial flavor taste at all. Pina colada tastes like peanut Kolata mango tastes like Peanut calata tastes like peanut calata, mango, taste like mango. High chew uses concentrated fruit, juices, and haichu uses concentrated fruit juices and purees. So every time you put a piece of high chew in your mouth, you experienced an explosion of So every time you put a piece of Hi Chew in your mouth, you experience an explosion of flavors. It's pretty simple. Hi Chew makes people happy and happy people smile more. We want you to love high We want you to love hi chew. As much as we do visit www.high-chew.com/win that's HII dash C H E w.com forward slash w I as much as we do. Visit WWW dot hi dash chew dot com slash win. That's h I dash CHEW dot com forward slash N. And enter to win an exclusive bucket full of high chew candy and and enter to win an exclusive bucket full of high chew candy and sweat. While you're there, check out how you can become a member of the high chew chew crew, which is an exclusive club where you receive special offers and all of the cool things go to high you're there, check out how you can become a member of the haikyuu, which is an exclusive club where you receive special offers and all of the cool things. Go to hi chu dot com slash when. The associated press reported The Associated Press reported on some of the things Gibby that you and I kind of have already talked about Right? That these families felt that they were really kind of in a fight with law enforcement. To get them to proactively investigate what had happened to their loved ones. And isn't that shame that you have to get law enforcement to be proactive and or a shame that you feel that way. Because again, I don't know what law law enforcement was doing. What I do know is that the family's felt as though they weren't doing what they should have been doing. So to me, that's that's a shame even to have to feel that way. Sure. I don't know if that's a lack of communication or just a lack of investigation. Right. It could be a little bit of both The other thing that came up in the research was that law enforcement hadn't even made any type of formal Pittman, warning the community that a serial predator may be on the loose. Antwan I can understand maybe not doing it after the first victim is found. Maybe even the second victim. But when you get, you know, 678 victims, who are found within, you know, a span of Not not that long of a period of time. Yeah. Okay. Maybe we need to put something out there. Now, there's a balance there, right, between informing the public and inducing panic. Right. But if you can find a way to get it out there, maybe, and it's a big maybe. You say somebody's life. Yeah. You get somebody to come forward and say, hey, I know something about one of the murders or all of the murders. I know this was a a point of contention with the families. That not only did they feel as though the police weren't doing their job investigating, they weren't even, you know, notifying the public, The families and friends of Journeys Hard Grove, Terren Nicholson, Melody Wiggens, Ernestin Battle, and Jackie Thor. Felt so strongly about the need to advocate for their daughters and sisters that they established a community group called moms which stood for murdered or missing sisters. They organized billboards with photos of their loved ones to prompt the public to come forward. And this can work. We've seen this work in some cases. Sure have. Obviously, there's that movie right? Three billboards outside of ebbing, Three billboards outside of Ebbing's Missouri. It's been a while since I've seen that movie. From what I remember, I believe it's based on the true story, but we've seen where people have taken this route over the years. Yeah. We've done a handful of stories where billboards were involved with helping the investigators to try to find who killed the victims. Well, at the very least, it cannot hurt. Right? If it brings in one tip -- Yeah. -- or it spurs one person to come forward and say, I might know something, you know, maybe that gives the police the the lead that they need to go on. He's ever having New, that you that can. Now another problem that's been brought up a lot in this case is that law enforcement didn't link. The murder of the first victim, Denise Williams, and the third victim, Travis Harrison, with the other victims initially despite all the similarities. Denise was not involved as a sex worker, but Travis had been. His body was found only a mile away from where Elizabeth smallwood was discovered in early two thousand nine, investigators maintained that there was insufficient evidence. To connect Denise and Travis's murders with the others. But Travis's mother felt that if he was dressed as a woman, when he was murdered, this could have made him a target. And we know they never found what he was dressed in. He just had his socks on. At the time that they discovered his body. So I think she makes a good point. Yeah. We talked about it. He was known to wear women's clothing And I think you can make that argument that the attacker might have thought that Travis was a woman from the way that he was dressed and selected him as, you know, his next victim. Because you do kinda have to look at it as the outlier. Right? Travis is the lone male. So if you're working off the theory that this is a serial killer, that all these murders are connected, you kinda have to explain Travis's murder in the series. And I do feel as though this is a good possible explanation. Yeah. So, Gibby at this point, police have eleven unsolved murders or missing persons to investigate over a six year period if just one killer was responsible. He'd been active for considerable amount of time. He was most likely very skilled. At praying upon his victims, killing them, and then dumping their bodies while avoiding detection. Well, I think Local investigators were having a tough time, and we're going to continue having a tough time finding this killer without some help. According to the Winston Salem Journal, the Edgecombe County Sheriff's Office formed a task force in June two thousand nine, to consult with the state bureau of investigation and the FBI to help catch the killer. The investigators were able to link some of the victims together with the help of their families. According to profilers, there was a single killer. Who lived in or around the area, and he had targeted the victims. A reward totaling twenty thousand dollars was offered for information leading directly to an arrest in conviction or the discovery of the remaining victims. And I do think this is important. Right? Number one, asking for help. Sure. I always think is important. And then, you know, once you get that help, you get the x experts in on the case, you have profilers who come to the conclusion that this is a single killer. This is a serial killer who has murdered all of these victims. Because I think that's very important. It is. Right? Are we dealing with one killer or multiple killers? And this determination of a single killer is very important to the investigation. During the investigation. Police also went back through their records to track down local men who they knew had a history of using sex workers, but no new leads surfaced out of this pool of potential persons of police also went back through their records to track down local men who they knew had a history of using sex workers, but no new lead surfaced out of this pool of potential persons of interest The police eliminated anyone in the victim's immediate social circles as being involved in each murder or whether any of the deaths were perhaps related to unpaid drug deaths. Well, So they're going through and checking the boxes, so they're going through and checking the boxes. Right? Making sure that everything's been covered. Following the murder of Taraha police were able to gather some DNA evidence. They found traces of semen on Tara's body at her autopsy. This was the breakthrough that investigators needed. The DNA was sent off to the lab and when the results came back, there was a was sent off to the lab, and when the results came back, there was match. The DNA was identified as belonging to a man from Rocky Mount. He was thirty one year old, Antoine Maurice Pittman. He had a lengthy criminal record. For things such as drunk driving, theft, assault, resisting arrest, providing alcohol to minors, and the attempted rape of a child. At the time, he was living with his mother and girlfriend. Sounds potentially dangerous. Pittman was born in Rocky Antwan July fifteenth nineteen seventy eight. He didn't know his father growing up. He was raised solely by his mom. From early childhood, he had learning disabilities. During his early teen years, Pittman lived with his grandparents in the rural community of Whitakers and attended high school in Taraha. often visited the seven Bridges Road area, where the bodies of Terren Nicholson, Jackie Thor, Ernestin Battle, and Jarni's hargrove were later found within a ten mile radius. Pittman had a tough time keeping on straight and narrow and he became known to local police as a team. His behavior escalated pretty quickly. He dropped out of high school in the ninth grade, when he was sixteen years old, he was arrested for attempting to rape a two year old child who lived nearby. That is sickening, very sick. But Pittman struck a plea deal, pleading guilty to taking in decent liberties with the minor. Which allowed him to be released on probation on a three year sentence. And, you know, that ticks me off. It does. And and again, we don't always know the details of these types of cases. Right? What really did they have against him? Were some of the parties involved, willing to some of the parties involved willing to testify? Obviously, that probably the two year old couldn't. So you just don't know. Maybe that that plea deal was necessary. Yeah. And he was sixteen years old, so I'm assuming they took that into consideration as well. Yeah, but it's still a very nasty heinous But it's still a very nasty heinous crime. And even though he got off really on probation, there were strict conditions attached. He had to register as a sex offender According to investigative reporter Mike Hicksonball, Pittman was required to spend ninety days in juvenile offender rehab which was described Gibby as kinda like a boot camp. But he was only a third of the way through his stay. When he got into a fight, He was kicked out of the program and placed under house arrest with his mother as a result. It sounds like he got the better end of that like he got the better end of that deal. Well, depending on what he thought about this boot camp. Yeah. How bad is house arrest in your mom's house compared to jail -- Yeah. -- prison. Maybe what was a harsh boot camp? I don't I don't know. Hey, ma I want some of those Ma. want some of LaSanya. Exactly. I mean, I I don't know -- Yeah. -- it could have been the courteous scenario possible for him. Yeah. Alright, All right, good. So let's take our last break to talk about air med care network, you know, in all of the unsolved episodes that we do, we talk about a lot of unforeseen Let's take our last break to talk about AirMed Care Network, you know, in all of the unsolved episodes that we do. We talk about a lot of unforeseen scenarios. So everyone listening knows that the unexpected does everyone listening knows that the unexpected does happen. If a medical emergency arises an air med care network membership protects your If a medical emergency arises, an air med care network membership protects your family. It also protects your It also protects your finances. AirMed Care network. Crews provide air medical transport to the nearest and most appropriate trauma crews provide air medical transport to the nearest and most appropriate trauma center. And as a member, you'll never see a bill for that flight that's as a member, you'll never see a bill for that flight. That's right. Members never pay a dime for transport when flown by an AMC and provider health insurance may not cover the full cost of emergency medical air Members never pay a dime for transport when flown by an AMCN provider. Health insurance may not cover the full cost of emergency medical air transport. So this is a very important membership to have it covers everyone in your household for just pennies a so this is a very important membership to have. It covers everyone in your household for just pennies a day. And right now, true crime all the time, unsolved listeners get up to a $50 Amazon or visa e-gift card when you And right now, True Crime all the time unsolved listeners get up to a fifty dollar Amazon or Visa egift card when you join. So be prepared with an air med care network membership, visit air med care network.com/true and use offer code So be prepared with an airmed care network membership. Visit airmed care network dot com slash true and use offer code truth. In early nineteen ninety six, at the age of seventeen, Pittman was arrested for parole violations resulting in an eighteen month stay in a Morganton juvenile detention facility when he was in his mid twenties. He did another forty five days in county jail and had to provide a blood sample. As a result of applying for a job but failing to disclose his sex offender status. Following his release, drifted from job to job. In two thousand three, he was twenty four years old, and he moved to Rocky Mount, where he lived for the next six years on the edge of town. Pretty close to seven bridges were. And it was over the same six year period Gibby that African Americans started to diss appear from Edgecombe County only to turn up murder. Can you make a connection there? Sure. Obviously, you you say that it's a smoking gun or conclusively means he's the killer? No, you can. It could be a coincidence, but it's not the type of coincidence that you would ever wanna be associated with, and it's just gonna look even more worse for him as we move on. At one point during two thousand five, Pittman was found to have lived close to the soccer field where Elizabeth Smallwood's body was later found dumped in February two thousand nine. So, I mean, I I think based on things like that, you can definitely make the argument that Pittman was very familiar with the area -- Yeah. -- had the knowledge. Had the knowledge back kinda to what I was talking about before, maybe the traffic patterns, the time of day where It was very unlikely that someone would be coming along at this like that. Yeah. In 2006 at the age of 27, Pitman moved again this time into a trailer in the town of Scotland, neck in Halifax county, he continued to rack up more convictions for drunk driving, soliciting and assaulting a sex In two thousand six, at the age of twenty seven, Pittman moved again. This time into a trailer in the town of Scotland Neck in Halifax's County, he continued to rack up more convictions for drunk driving, soliciting, and assaulting a sex worker. Well, he wasn't a pillar of the community. Was he? No. He absolutely wasn't. I sure would not have wanted him living next to me. The thing that jumps out at me here though is soliciting and assaulting a sex worker. Okay? We know he was in the area. We know he was very familiar with the area. Now, He has a connection with sex workers -- Yeah. -- and being violent with them. On April twenty fifth two thousand nine, The same day that Jarni's heartgrove disappeared, Pittman was found by North Carolina highway patrol officers on seven Bridges Road. He was in his car and was asleep with his pants unzipped and was wearing muddy boots. That's not a good way to be found? No. Sounds like a Thursday night for you, but for most people, that is out of the ordinary. You know, I don't sit around in my car with my pants unzipped, first of all. That's number one. Yeah. And then the muddy boots. Okay. Could you have been out hiking, bird watching? Sure. Could you also have been disposing of a body in an area that was muddy and you brought your boots along because you you knew you'd be there? Sure could have. And then next, explain to me why your pants are unzipped. What might not right now? Are you talking about why his or no. His, you know, that line from something about Mary, you know, we're all just ping is not going to work here in this His. Yeah. You know, that line from something about Mary, you know, we're all just peeing is not gonna work here in this situation. No, it's not. Officers woke him up to find out what was going on, and they ended up charging him with drunk driving. According to reporter Mike Hicksonbaugh, When Pittman later failed to appear in court, he was listed as a fugitive. But he wasn't on the run for very long. He was arrested on traffic offenses a few months later in nearby Emash County. And by this time, Journeys' body had been found. Not far away from where Pittman was arrest did wearing the muddy boots. Investigators working on the string of murders had also sent away the semen sample. Found on Taraha body for testing, and they compared it with Pittman's DNA. They found that it was Emash. So a month after his arrest for failing to appear in court, thirty one year old Pittman was charged with the first degree murder of Taraha His mother and neighbors told the Winston Salem Journal and ABC eleven news that they were shocked at the arrest. Claiming he was a quiet guy who kept to himself. Okay. He might have been, but to be honest with you, Gibby sometimes those people scare me the most. Now, I'm also quiet guy who keeps to myself, so point made. Point taken. When investigators looked into Antoine's background further, it appeared as though he could be responsible. For the murders of at least eight of the other victims. Now they didn't have concrete evidence, right? To prove that, but just looking at circumstantial evidence, they felt it was right, to prove that, but Just looking at circumstantial evidence, they felt it was possible. The FBI profiler had advised only two months before Pittman's arrest that the killer would be living in close proximity to where the bodies were found and would not stop killing. And we talk about profilers a lot. You know, I know there's a lot of things that go into it. Sometimes I joke about how I could have come up with with a profile -- Right. -- common sense. Con there's there is sometimes a lot of common sense, but I do think the would not stop killing part is probably in a lot of profiles. Sure. Especially if you're talking about a serial killer who you believe has been operating over, let's say, a six year period. Okay. There's no reason for that person to stop on their own. And to me, that's just kind of common sense. Yeah. I mean, clearly, this point, he hadn't stopped. So why would he? And my assumption is the living in proximity has to do with the familiarity that we talked about, you know, regarding this seven bridges road area, being able to dump bodies get away without being seen, things like that, and where to locate his victims. Yeah. I think that would go into it as well. On March fifth two thousand ten, Christine Boone's Skeptanized remains were located in a wooden area in Scotland Neck not far from the site where Pittman had lived in his trailer during two thousand six. It was more than three years. After Christine had been initially reported missing, and authorities executed a search warrant at the site. According to WRL news, the search revealed pornography on Pittman's computer depicting women being raped. Pittman computer was also used to access other websites containing what was called rate type content. According to ABC eleven News, less than three weeks later, another woman's body was found off seven Bridges Road between Battleboro and Whitakers by a handwriting in ATV. The woman was identified as a 40 year old mother of three Roberta The woman was identified as a forty year old mother of three, Roberta Williams. When police spoke with her family, they were concerned to learn Roberta had supposedly been reported as missing by her relatives, but there was nothing in police files to indicate that any such report had been taken. But according to WRL news, there's a different story. One of Roberta's relatives claimed they'd last seen her in the spring of two thousand eight. Saying she hadn't been reported missing because she had been homeless. I think for her family though, they assumed she was reported missing. So to find out that there was never a report on file, this had to be disappointing to them and frustrating. Yeah, I I think two good adjectives In two thousand ten, Antoine Pittman was still awaiting trial, but the discovery of Roberta's body prompted the National Guard to be called in to help in a large scale search for any other missing women. But no other bodies were found at that time. The body count finally stopped in January two thousand eleven after the last known victim was found. According to ABC eleven News, a group of hunters making their way through a wooded area, off seven Bridges Road, looking for deer antlers, discovered the decomposed body of Yolanda Lancaster, who'd last been seen almost two years earlier. After several delays, Pittman finally went to trial in September two thousand eleven. Mother's of several of the other victims accompanied Taraha mother to support her. Unfortunately, prosecutors couldn't put together sufficient evidence against Pittman to charge him with the murder of the other eight victims. According to WRL news, prosecutors curies announced they would not seek to death penalty due to a lack of aggravating factors to meet the threshold for capital Pittman pleaded not guilty, but his strategy came undone during proceedings when it emerged that he'd had contact. With before she disappeared. Pittman told the court that on March first two thousand nine, Tara willingly got into his vehicle. The two then drove to a hotel where he paid her twenty dollars for sex, which explained the presence of his semen on her body. Pittman claimed he'd last saw terror when he dropped her off at the Rocky Mount library. But the court heard from forensic experts who testified that based on the autopsy evidence. died less than twenty four hours after having sex with Pittman. Two sex workers testified for the prodcution, claiming they'd each had separate encounters with Pittman. He drove them to a secluded location outside of town. Then he attempted to strangle both women. Thankfully they both escaped with their lives, but Pittman claimed he'd never seen these women before. now. The jury didn't buy his story that he didn't know what happened to Tara after their the jury didn't buy his story, that he didn't know what happened to terror after their encounter. He was found guilty. And sentenced to life in prison with no parole. He certainly had the ability to kill. Yeah. Well, jury concluded that he did. If you take the testimony of, you know, some of these other women who said they had encounters with him. He tried to strangle them. We know that some of these victims died by strangulation. We also know that some of their causes of death couldn't be conclusively identified. So could they have all been strangled? Could the killers MO have been strangled? Sure. Yeah? So I'm sure detectives, law enforcement, the prodcution, they were happy. To secure conviction against Pittman for murder, begins it had to have been a little bit bittersweet. Right? Because there remained the matter of the other victims who had been found dead, and then you had Joyce Durham who was still missing, In late two thousand twelve, Pittman appealed his conviction, but it was dismissed in mid two thousand thirteen. So you mentioned the Gibby, Pittman had the ability to kill. right. That was proven in That was proven in court. He was in the area. When all of these murders were committed, he had intimate knowledge of the area. He was known to have paid for sex. Yeah. So there's a connection there to sex workers. You know, he'd like to strangle. We do know that he was a strangler So there is a real possibility that he committed these other murders. We said it. Right? The prosecutors couldn't put together the evidence to charge him with any of these other murders. So because of that, I think we have to look at some other theories. As though Pittman was not the serial killer responsible for the other murders, there are a couple of competing theories. As to the killer's identity. One theory is that some of the women were victims of domestic abuse, trapped without a way out, We know that Yolanda Lancaster fought with her boyfriend. Before she went missing, Melody Wiggans' boyfriend had a prior charge for assaulting her. But he has a strong alibi. For her murder, he was in jail at that time. And then I think the other theory is that another killer was operating in the same area at the same time with the same victimology. It gives I don't think this is outside the realm of possibility. I mean, how many cases have we researched? Where it's ultimately come out that there were two, three. Sometimes even more serial killers operating in the same general area at the same time. Oh, yeah. We've had many occasions where they overlapped. That's scary. It is scary. think, you know, for a long time, it was thought by many criminologists and profilers that serial killers either didn't or just couldn't stop killing. Once they Taraha. I I think it's now thought of that that's not exactly a hard and fast rule. I still think the majority kind of operate that way that they don't just decide to stop, but We know that it happens. right. You look at people like Dennis Rader, BTK, he killed 10 people over the course of 17 years in You look at people like Dennis Raider, BTK. He killed ten people. Over the course of seventeen years in Kansas, and then look at, you know, EAR, the original Night Stalker, the Golden State killer, Joseph DeAngelo, who terrorized California killing thirteen people and raping fifty women over a twelve year period before suddenly stopping and lying low. For the next thirty two years. So, you know, obviously, it's theoretically possible for someone to engage in serial murder serial rape and then stop for whatever reason. So that makes it possible. Right? That this killer is still out there, Maybe keeping a low profile after having seen what happened to Antoine Pittman. Yeah? Or moved on to another area. And that's a definite possibility as well. You know, this person could have been ecstatic that Antoine Pittman was convicted that I think most people believe that he's responsible for a large number of the other murders And so, okay, you know what? It's now time for me to move on. He could be operating in another area of the country. So Gibby, as we wrap up this episode, I think many people believe that the man responsible for these murders, if not all of them, maybe most of them is already behind bars. And I guess the most compelling piece of evidence to support This theory is that once Pittman was in custody, the disappearances and the murders stopped. And that could be very telling. It also could support the other killer theory. Sure. And we just said, maybe another killer was happy that they'd pin the one murder on Pittman and said, you know what I'm getting out of here. So I'm gonna take this, get out of free gel card and go. Let's get out of gel free. You say, get out of free gel card. That's how I play it. Okay? So you have a different monopoly set than the rest of this? Yeah. I couldn't really afford the real long, so we had To do it by, he just wrote it by do it by He just rode it by hand. Yeah. But to me, I I think what's very telling is that, you know, when you look at the reporting on this case, The official line from law enforcement is that Pittman is believed to be responsible for the other murders. So I think that's very telling they don't have the evidence to do anything about it yet -- Right. -- or at this point in time, but it sounds like they're pretty sure and I can see why they would be for all the reasons that we've talked about. Yeah. In two thousand sixteen, the victims family spoke to the Associated Press about their ongoing pain and suffering. They feel that now Pittman is behind bars Their sisters, daughters, and friends have long been forgotten. And I get it gives. That that is tough. Right? There's only one family. right? Who really got Who really got justice. And that's the family of Tara Nicholson The other families may believe that Pittman was responsible for their loved ones' murders. Right. But until it's proven, they're still gonna struggle with that. There's there's no finality in And that has to be tough for any family member of a victim. Yeah. We always want that finality. If you have any information on the murders of Denise Williams, Melody Wiggans, Travis Harrison, Christine Boone, Jackie Thor, Joyce Durham, Ernstein Battle, Yolanda Lancaster, Elizabeth Smallwood, or Journeys Harbor. You can contact the Edgecombe County Office at 2526417911 or County crime stoppers at 2529771111. 1. Or I Right, Gibby. That is it for our episode on the Edgecombe County serial killer. We got some voice mails. You wanna check those out? Yeah. Let's hear them. Hey, guys. My name is Rainy. I'm outside of Billing's Antwan, and Fergie. This is for you who is seen Jacob because I love both of you guys this is for you. Who is team Jacobs because I love both of you guys equally. So I'm team Jacobs. Yeah. I just wanna say I love you guys. You're awesome. I work at the post office And right now, we're doing six, twelve hour days. So I am flying through your episodes. Just signed up for Patreon because I need more but the true crime all the time and unsolved. But a case suggestion, Kyiv is Pittman outside of Portland. You did disappear, I wanna say, like, two thousand eleven. And use a young kid. I don't know a lot in, so I just remember seeing the billboard billboards on I five. So interesting case, like, trying to remember bits and pieces of it, but I'd love to hear your guys' take on And keep it going. You guys are awesome. Thanks. Thanks. Well, thank you. We appreciate you signing up for Patreon. The Byron Pittman case is a big one. Yeah. I have worked on that in the past, and it's just such a huge case. It is. I know we'll do it. It's been on the list. I I don't know when we'll do it. As far as team Jacob, I'm assuming that's toilet. Right? Edward. Wasn't there a guy named I remember back in the day, people were team. This and one was Robert Patterson and the other was the Taylor Lottner is he this and one was Robert Patterson and the other was the Taylor Lochner. Is he Jacob? I have no idea. You watch that stuff, not me? I actually she did watch the Twilight movies with my wife, did not enjoy them. I I know that's going to upset some fans of twilight. They're they were not my thing. I'm thinking maybe it was like a thinking maybe it was, like, a -- Yep. -- so reference or something. I think I think it was highlight, but that's where I'm going with. Final answer. Hi, Mike and It's Antwan calling from Indianapolis, Indiana. I've listened to you all for over three years and tell just about everyone I know how incredible you all are, just the kindness and grace you all have for the victims of these cases and the level of just overall research and digging into the trueness and the realness of East Cape to cover is unlike any other podcast I've seen and heard. So just really love you guys. I am team Mike and Gibby. However, team Mike me a little bit more in their corner for one reason only. I'm also huge UK wildcat fan. So go big blue, stay safe, and keep your own time ticking. Thanks, guys. Co big blue, have to. You have to. I'm so excited. I get excited during basketball season. I do wish you guys the best. But I will say I appreciate all the the nice things that she said definitely makes us feel good. It does. And that word-of-mouth is huge. You and I don't talk about it probably as much as we should, but word-of-mouth is is a big deal for the podcast. We appreciate that. Hey, how's it going, mister Thomas, and he was working again? Over the weekend was my birthday, and my son's birthday. And I felt like it was the right time to go ahead and pick up the place around numbers because I finished all the keypad keypad on file. So I appreciate you all so. Y'all get me through my work day. I'm always need you when comes in on Monday morning to come and start listening to your new stuff. And IMAX eighteen purging. I think the same without Gibby, but in purging, we have you know, noon, third, you have a lot more in common. And I rarely, you think he's got his game all the time. Take care and keep your own time ticking. Wait. Does that mean I'm not on my game all time? I'm taking it to mean that. No. So okay. We got a couple of team fergies here, which is not the norm. Normally, there's way more team gimme, I'm fine with that. But, hey, it's nice to have a little team fergie every night. We gotta go into the Christmas holiday. Feeling a little down. I will say, have your birthday to both of you -- Yeah. -- belated. Birthday. Yeah. Hey, Keesha. This is Luke. A longtime listener, first time caller. I was just listening to the Ronald Board episode and I just wanted to comment. I'm a 90s baby and went to elementary school in North Carolina, and we just don't happen to have a paddle in the principal's office. think I'm the last of a generation of people knowing what it's like for unusual punishment, I guess. But thank you guys. You guys aspiration. I love listening to your podcast. And I guess I'm team, and that's all. Keep your own time ticking. Hey, doesn't like a little paddling? Okay. What you do in your personal life? How many times I have to tell you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't care what you do in your personal life. Yeah. No. So alright. This pendulum swings back to Team Gibby, which is awesome. But, you know, that that was obviously AAT cat episode. Right. We don't have a t cat episode this week, so I played the voicemail on on unsolved. But it is interesting depending on how old you are listening to the show, whether you get certain references. It's just like us being of a certain age. We're not gonna get newer references. Right. I I just don't under I just don't know what some of the stuff means, but I sure know and remember what it was like to walk into the principal's office and see that paddle. Yes. So there was a little bit of fear that was induced at that point in time. Was in a bar the other day at night. And You said day night, it was a law bar says, You said day night. It was a long Bar session. It was a long bar session. But they, you know, they do those flights. A lot of these flights, boards, remind me of the paddle. They have Oh, like they would make a good paddle. Yeah. Yeah. That holds in for the little sample cups -- Yep. -- for the flights. I know exactly what you're talking about. And you know that that I don't do a lot of flights nowadays, but Sounds like you're doing them day and night, which is good. Yeah. And the next time I'm happy for you. Yeah. Next time you see one of those flight boards, Send over and take few. Think think about getting a padlock. Yeah. Alright, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime all the time unsolved. So for Mike And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. putting back a few, and few becomes a few too many. For a moment, you think of calling for a ride, but nah, he lived nearby. What's the worst that could the worst that could happen. You get pulled over. Your insurance goes up. It was your license. You totaled your car. He kills someone, the result of driving drunk tragic. That's why law enforcement is out there looking for impaired drivers to save lives. So if you think you're okay to drive after a few drinks, Think again, drive sober or get pulled over, paid for by Nitsa. Cancer. So many lives are touched by cancer. In fact, one in two men and one in three women will be diagnosed with cancer. At the American Cancer Society, we are on a mission to free the world from cancer. It's a big mission, driven by little things, like a ride to treatment, a free place to stay, a twenty four seven helpline, but these little things are really the big things. Because to a cancer patient and their family, their everything. And every day, we reach thousands of cancer patients who so desperately need these services, but we need your help to get these critical services to more people and families in need this holiday season. Go to cancer dot org and join the fight against cancer. It takes just minutes to donate and help provide a special support to cancer patients and their families. Don't wait. More than one in three people will be diagnosed with cancer. Go to cancer dot org right now and make a difference. Go to cancer dot org.