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2:10

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2:19

all

2:39

hello everyone welcome to episode

2:41

two hundred and fifty of the true crime all

2:43

the time unsolved podcast on my ferguson

2:46

and with me as always my partner and true

2:48

crime

2:49

my gibson give me what is up with you

2:51

a good man what's up with you struggling

2:53

a little bit with a back pain

2:56

oh yeah yep tried to pick something

2:58

up and a the whole system

3:00

went haywire back yeah

3:02

i think every muscle is fighting

3:05

a each other and

3:07

sour doesn't take much when you get up and

3:09

as it it doesn't it doesn't

3:11

i don't like it but you're right you're right

3:13

about that so episode two fifty man

3:15

yeah that's unbelievable you put

3:17

that together with true crime all the time

3:20

i think what we just put out two seventy

3:22

two seventy mulan

3:24

do that math and your head the twenty

3:27

five twenty okay i just as the

3:29

new slap on the patron

3:31

, episodes which we have what

3:33

forty one of that serve five

3:36

sixty one that's , episodes

3:39

and and it really is an eye

3:41

so great about it as a lot of

3:43

true crime is allowed to crime

3:45

i hope we have five hundred a thousand

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more yeah same here the

3:49

lights are now by given our patrons

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shutouts we had oh lima

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lot on or melissa sanam weaver

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for reza was a prison free

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mean chase on a per se that i mean

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casey box was going on but colleen

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scotty colleen normal whining

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so gotta have some linings rosemary

4:22

was up rose carolyn johnson

4:25

he carolyn and last anomalies

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thousand burnt begun allows and and

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then if we go back into the vault this

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week week aaron why what's

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up here so we love all the people that

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we also had some great pay pal donations

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lot to us the bigger t have

4:55

gibbs right now we have an episode out

4:58

on matthew back yeah this

5:00

is a workplace murder the

5:03

so yeah that was

5:05

a guy who worked at the connecticut

5:07

lottery and

5:09

you know over the years he began

5:12

to feel slighted serve the

5:14

frustrated yeah frustrated

5:16

there were some mental health issues

5:18

i think fused into

5:21

service case that he made

5:23

the fateful decision to go

5:25

in and murder more

5:27

people and you know since we had a hit

5:30

list the was looking for

5:32

these for people very focused

5:34

specific the make sure you check

5:36

that up soda sorry buddy are

5:38

you ready to get into the subset of true

5:40

crime all the time on salt omri today

5:42

we're talking about the murders of pamela

5:45

buckley and james

5:47

for and also known as the sumpter

5:49

county does in the summer nineteen

5:51

seventy six the bodies of a young

5:54

man and woman were found off

5:56

the side of a secluded dirt road

5:58

outside the town of lynch her in

6:01

sumter county south carolina victims

6:03

had both been shot several times police

6:06

did their best to determine how the pair

6:08

had come to be in the area who saw

6:11

them and walk identification

6:14

of the capo proved to be nearly

6:16

impossible despite law enforcement

6:19

releasing detailed descriptions

6:21

are the victims nationwide no

6:23

one came for with any information

6:26

the body sadly when i'm playing

6:29

investigators struggled to put the pieces

6:31

of the puzzle together in what

6:33

would soon become a cold case i

6:36

mean gibbs we've seen this before

6:38

we have especially and unsolved when

6:40

you can't even identify

6:43

the victims where do you go

6:45

from there right how

6:47

do you identify potential witness

6:50

one one try to come up with suspects

6:53

so almost impossible that

6:55

i was starting points they gonna have a starting point

6:58

and normally that starting point

7:00

is identifying the victims

7:02

from there you find out there

7:05

are known associates are

7:06

if they're married you find out

7:08

all of those things right friends and family

7:11

and then you interview and and you kinda

7:13

go from there but if you don't

7:15

have that starting point

7:17

can't really backtrack you can

7:20

move forward know at the same time

7:22

there were two people who would not

7:25

let this case go one was

7:27

the sumpter county coroner continue

7:30

to try to find answers until

7:32

she retired thirty three years

7:34

after the murder the other was

7:36

a member of the pub matthew

7:39

mcdaniel who was determined

7:41

to get to the bottom are both couples

7:43

identity and the identity

7:46

of their killed this obviously

7:48

went on for a very long time

7:51

and really just when it seemed as though the victims

7:53

identities words forever

7:55

remain a mystery there was a

7:57

breakthrough matthews research

8:00

and persistence and pushing for

8:02

genetic genealogy resulted

8:05

in the testing on the couples dna

8:08

staggering forty four years after

8:10

the murders first made headlines the

8:12

testing was conducted names

8:15

were finally put to the victim's

8:17

face now the killer or

8:20

killers identity

8:22

their identities in the exact circumstances

8:25

around the double murder

8:28

remain unknown but investigators

8:30

have some persons of interest in their sights

8:33

and they're confident that it's not

8:35

too late for those with information

8:37

to come forward to help solve

8:39

this case never too late

8:42

know he really isn't and

8:44

i think it's one of the things about

8:46

these unsolved cases there's

8:48

a need to talk about

8:51

now there's an episode that

8:53

we do ever going

8:55

to help the all the

8:57

help solve a case i don't know

9:00

that it is it couldn't

9:02

what could a another podcast someone

9:05

listening to a podcast are seeing

9:07

a dateline or you know seeing

9:09

one of the shows could a

9:11

jogger memory war

9:14

what it calls them

9:16

the fully understand a memory

9:18

that they have matt

9:21

maybe it does pertain to this

9:23

case and and cause them to come

9:25

forward and then nino the everything

9:27

is set in the most yeah the

9:30

so let's dive headlong into this episode

9:33

six twenty eight on the morning

9:36

of august ninth nineteen seventy

9:38

six a truck driver driving

9:40

through sumpter county between interstate

9:43

ninety five in south

9:45

carolina three forty one pulled

9:48

over for roster when

9:50

he got out of the truck he saw to

9:52

lifeless bodies lying face up

9:54

on the side of the right according

9:57

to the sumpter daily either the

9:59

slack labour jumped back into

10:01

the truck and drove to a nearby

10:03

store where he alerted the clerk

10:06

the immediately called the police

10:08

right so you're a trucker and

10:10

we have a lot of truckers we

10:12

do who listen to our podcast you

10:15

kinda going along your day you

10:17

need to pull over you need to rest

10:19

you need to use the facilities whatever

10:21

the case is you get out

10:23

of your truck and discover

10:26

the dead bodies okay it's

10:29

going to be a different day for you oh yes

10:31

this is not the normal

10:34

thing then we talk about this

10:36

from time to time people who

10:38

discover the seized

10:40

individuals number one

10:42

that's going to be a tremendous shock sir

10:44

will be i think the second

10:47

piece of that is how

10:49

long does something like that stay with

10:52

and maybe it stays with you forever

10:55

to some degree sure pregnant

10:58

very with the person but

11:00

i imagine it's something that's going to be a

11:02

little difficult to get out of your mind the

11:05

wonder if that happens today

11:08

knowing how many people listen

11:10

to true crime their

11:13

little sort of them kick into

11:15

detective mode at that moment what

11:18

is not detective mode

11:20

maybe c s i moved here the

11:23

in then the form

11:25

of maybe knowing

11:27

what not to do yeah you know

11:29

i don't one disturb maybe

11:32

even footprints i don't want to get too

11:34

close i don't want to walk through what

11:36

could be a crime scene i

11:39

do states that's one thing

11:41

that the cs eyes and

11:44

the true crime shows in the podcast

11:46

probably have really helped

11:48

with your average yeah education

11:51

of of that of those things your average

11:53

person today know so

11:55

much more wow crime

11:58

scenes and what should

12:00

and should not occur a

12:03

the a take a look dexter i know dexter

12:05

was a killer but he was also a

12:07

a sumter i guy so

12:10

you know watching things like that

12:12

whereas in the nineteen fifties

12:15

what say you stumble

12:17

upon a scene like dad's he

12:19

may be rush headlong into syria

12:21

and you're trying now i'm

12:23

not saying today you don't go over and

12:25

see if the person's soul lot re

12:28

i i don't want the to seem as

12:30

though i'm saying that but there would

12:32

be some discoveries were you know

12:34

right off the bat is yeah this

12:36

person or these individuals are

12:39

deceased there's nothing you're going to be able

12:41

to do for them they've been deceased

12:43

for some period of time though

12:47

i don't want to disturb tire marks

12:49

i don't want to disturb footprints

12:52

i don't want to maybe

12:54

pick up fibers on

12:56

demise use that are laying around

12:58

the bar by adding that's a great point

13:00

you're making it was determined

13:03

that the pair had been dead less than twenty

13:05

four hours the estimated time of

13:07

death was between eleven

13:09

thirty pm the twelve am

13:12

the night before around seven

13:14

hours before they were found at

13:16

the time it was reported that

13:18

victims were shot in the chest

13:21

back in throat with either

13:23

a thirty eight caliber or

13:25

a three fifty seven magnum revolt

13:29

what's the big difference between a thirty

13:31

eight three fifty seven may

13:33

i think the biggest differences or three

13:35

fifty seven magnum this

13:37

is a very very powerful

13:41

yeah yeah crime scene technicians

13:43

said to work taking plaster tas

13:46

of tire tracks in the vicinity

13:48

of where the bodies were discovered the

13:50

and we just talked about that right those

13:52

are important flu if you can

13:55

get a good plaster

13:57

cast the tire

13:59

try the they've done amazing

14:02

things with don't sir narrowing

14:04

it down to certain brands

14:06

duff if you get some

14:08

type of good year where they sell millions

14:11

and millions and millions it may

14:13

not help you as much the like

14:15

mercer some a says in a cousin

14:17

vinny no really

14:19

narrow down on those threads of the tire

14:22

shirt on the type of axel

14:24

and no rear end of the car

14:27

at whether had posse tracker

14:29

him have positron actually it

14:31

goes back to the discussion

14:33

we have if you walk through

14:36

that tire tracks right then

14:38

what does it do it ruins it you're

14:40

not going to be able to get a good cast

14:43

and you you you

14:45

could potentially destroy very

14:48

powerful these amanda it

14:51

was determined that the male victim

14:53

was six one and quarter

14:56

inches tall weighed about one

14:58

hundred and fifty pounds and had an

15:00

athletic bill i jumped out

15:02

of me right away six

15:04

one a quarter one sister that's

15:07

me it is when so i

15:09

see where that could be

15:12

viewed as athletic it

15:14

is very when it is to be

15:16

over six one and only weigh

15:19

one hundred and fifty pounds it brown

15:21

soderling hair brown eyes

15:23

and thick dark eyebrows that's

15:26

made it to be industries it

15:28

was white within hours compulsion

15:31

on his right shoulder were two scores

15:34

they also had a foreign scar on his

15:36

abdomen which indicated

15:38

that he'd had an appendectomy

15:41

according to the greenwood index germs

15:44

the war faded blue levi's no

15:46

underwear in a red teacher

15:49

on the front of the t shirt was a

15:51

coors light beer logo and

15:54

on the back was a camel challenger

15:57

gtc burning seventy five okay

16:00

the guy unique the

16:03

it does it also sounds

16:05

like you've got racing and

16:07

ball got beer here

16:09

is often involved

16:11

that raises while people drink

16:13

beer races a do

16:15

the website sumpter mystery couple

16:17

of dot com explains that the t-shirt

16:20

most likely originated from the nineteen

16:22

seventy five sebring races in florida

16:25

which core sponsor so

16:28

again that makes that lot of what

16:31

was unclear was how the

16:33

man acquired the teacher really

16:36

fine at the races he was he there did it

16:38

that and the races or someone

16:41

give it to missouri if for

16:44

the find it on the side of the road

16:46

defined and and trashcan fear or

16:48

maybe was connected to the all racing same who serves

16:51

there were a lot of possibilities

16:54

right that police had to consider inside

16:57

the pocket of his jeans was a book

16:59

of matches from grants trucks

17:02

there were some clues please

17:05

add to figure out what to make these

17:08

clue yeah there was more

17:10

the sumter daily item detailed the jewelry

17:13

that the male victim was wearing the

17:15

war a bowl of are actually drawn

17:18

yellow gold watch on his left hand

17:21

rather handy worry fourteen karat

17:23

gold ring with a great line

17:25

star stones in a tiger

17:27

i said inside the band

17:30

the letters gps been

17:32

and great get some gold on yeah

17:35

scott the nice was fourteen

17:37

karat gold ring like

17:39

you to me it's watson

17:42

grade inside debate the

17:44

ladders jpl just

17:46

one more thing to go

17:49

the i'll just turn to dental work

17:51

as a means of identification the

17:53

male victims t suggested

17:55

he could be anywhere between

17:58

eighteen to twenty seven years it

18:00

was pretty apparent that

18:02

he came from an affluent

18:05

backwards florence morning news

18:07

said that he'd had complex and

18:09

costly dental procedures including

18:12

a root canal surgery and

18:14

a partial dental restoration

18:16

the are you gonna need money as

18:18

something like that on a really good insurance

18:21

one of the to yes i think

18:23

it would it rules out his

18:26

you know the jura drifter your you

18:28

know hopping trains and

18:30

have been most your life you're not

18:32

gonna have that type of dentistry

18:35

worked up you have a family

18:38

somewhere mostly female

18:40

victim was estimated to be around eighteen

18:42

to twenty years old the upper

18:44

end of her age range was later

18:47

increase to twenty five years

18:49

the hottest one build was five

18:52

foot five inches tall and

18:54

wait around a hundred to one hundred and five

18:56

pounds she had auburn

18:58

shoulder length hair yeah bluish

19:01

green eyes they were

19:03

also reported to be gray or here

19:06

there anything i colors

19:09

to me is some times mr fossett

19:11

think race i can look at someone

19:13

and not know exactly what

19:15

color their eyes are now you've

19:17

got like the water

19:20

ocean blue eyes okay i get that

19:22

some of the ones are a little hum

19:25

deluded tummy in blue

19:27

green hazel wow

19:31

depending on the way the light hits the

19:34

can all over the map

19:36

for me but i got

19:39

lies with sometimes i have aqua eyes it

19:41

just depends

19:43

depends just depends on where

19:45

the tides are exact at the time

19:47

someone looks i'm here he had

19:49

two moles honor left see one

19:52

on her right cheek and one on her

19:54

right it was sad gibbs

19:56

that she had extremely long

19:59

natural i lashes

20:01

and pierced ears the extent

20:03

of her dental work was filling center

20:05

back p that she had no

20:07

scars on robots the had manicured

20:10

fingernails and toenails bought

20:12

her legs were unsafe well

20:15

the seventies not very uncommon what

20:18

i don't know cause i i wasn't born

20:20

until seventy three i know

20:22

you are the have a lot of dates in

20:24

the mid seventies so i will

20:26

take your word on now the young

20:28

woman was dressed in blue denim cut

20:30

offs with the floral print scarf

20:32

isabel no wonder though

20:35

you that kind of jumped out at me gives

20:37

you guys two individuals

20:39

yeah found dead together

20:42

the dress but neither one of them

20:45

was wearing underwear i'm

20:47

not saying it's a bombshell it

20:49

did kind of jump out at me has

20:52

been notable

20:54

i know you can relate to this because i know you'd like to be

20:56

commando yourself i go commando

20:59

from time to time it

21:01

is very front referring the

21:03

time i sit across from me some

21:05

the sinus to frank now gives i

21:07

do think that this band

21:10

that the victims weren't

21:12

wearing underwear laughed

21:15

a lot of people to theorize that

21:17

there was some type of sex more motivation

21:20

to the crime in that

21:22

their underwear had been stolen the

21:24

nothing ever came out they were sexually assaulted the

21:27

young woman wore white time

21:29

blouse over a pink halter

21:31

top owner see worry pair

21:34

of hot pink and lavender wedge

21:36

heeled sandals according

21:38

to the don't networks the young woman

21:40

war three sterling silver wings

21:43

they were in the style of native american

21:46

or mexican handmade do

21:49

one ring had a faceted ban

21:51

with red white and blue stones

21:53

another had a rectangular

21:55

blackstone and then the third

21:58

have a large interrupted sad roll

22:00

band featuring a jade like

22:03

the male victim the young woman was

22:05

white with an hour complex

22:08

though i think give this led

22:10

law enforcement to believe that

22:12

the two were likely brother and sister

22:16

perhaps from somewhere

22:18

like south dumber the problem

22:20

is neither of the victims

22:22

had any id or money

22:25

on them when the toxicology

22:27

results came back no

22:30

drugs or alcohol were found in their system

22:33

the hadn't been smokers either

22:35

the last thing they didn't before they died

22:38

was food or ice

22:40

detective suspected the pair may

22:42

have purchased the fruit from a store

22:45

along the way the i

22:47

mean these were some very detailed said school

22:49

descriptions of the victims especially

22:52

the information about their distinguishing

22:54

features and the man's dental work when

22:57

investigators attempted to trace the

22:59

origin of the bowl of a watch using

23:01

the serial number they found that

23:03

had been manufactured in nineteen six

23:05

years according to the high point

23:08

interpret they ran into

23:10

a problem when they found that the company

23:13

had destroyed his record so he

23:15

was impossible to trace where

23:17

the watch could have been so when i think

23:19

what was immediately apparent

23:22

to authorities was that

23:24

these to individuals didn't appear

23:26

to be homeless runaways

23:29

or drifters they were both

23:31

clean

23:32

they were wearing valuable

23:34

jewelry and they were both

23:36

well while the nature

23:38

of the victims relationship was uncertain

23:41

police suspected the parried hit the road

23:43

to travel around the us like

23:46

many young people did of their

23:48

generation the i mean if they're under

23:51

early twenties is no better time

23:53

yeah to hit the open road see america

23:56

see the world before you settle down

23:58

before you have you know the more it

24:00

is in the kids and the

24:02

all the responsibilities you

24:04

can do it the then are

24:06

you gotta wait until you're an

24:08

empty nester and he get

24:10

that motor home and then

24:12

cruz all around the country hit the road hit the road

24:14

hit open road yeah in retirement

24:17

i remember you know when i was young

24:20

in high school wage just after high

24:22

school

24:23

i was always in vs when i heard about

24:25

somebody backpacking

24:28

across europe yeah i saw

24:30

may i wouldn't that be great to do that

24:33

the problem is i didn't have any money though

24:35

i was pretty much forced to work my

24:38

you know from the time i was about fourteen

24:40

years old i'm always jealous

24:43

of those people that could do that as just

24:45

take off and go sir the

24:47

more a bow for the next meal was gonna

24:49

come from a singer out there in a

24:51

way no steal a bag get in france

24:54

or you have a lady

24:56

and the tramp moment in italy their

24:59

okay and you

25:01

do what you gotta do got a little disney disney

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average sumter an sumter county county

26:01

sumter sumter a does a an production

26:03

the digital county

26:06

in a county an production

26:08

sumter digital a does county the an

26:10

an an digital in does a an digital

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production does county a sumter

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an in an production a county

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an a county in sumter does in

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a sumter a a the does the county

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county an a digital an the an an a

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county does county

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digital an county the county the

26:30

production an in production digital a

26:32

digital a the production production production

26:35

digital a the production county production

26:37

sumter an does a county county production

26:39

an an does an an county in

26:42

digital an a an county

26:44

a production digital a digital

26:46

an an a in in does digital

26:49

a the a in the sumter sumter

26:51

digital in county digital a an

26:53

production does does county digital

26:56

sumter a digital a the does an

26:58

a the an digital an production does

27:00

production sumter the does does

27:02

does does a digital county

27:05

sumter in does a does

27:07

the a a does does county production

27:10

does the a in in digital in an county

27:13

digital a production county an sumter

27:15

does the county county

27:17

sumter an the production county in

27:20

county county does digital

27:22

an an an an the county a does

27:24

a does county sumter

27:27

the in the weeks following them

27:30

greenwood index journal reported

27:32

that investigators had since the

27:34

victims fingerprints to the f b i

27:37

and an attempt to identify them neither

27:40

of their fingerprints were on fire the

27:42

sheriff's office distributed sketches

27:45

of victims detailed physical

27:47

descriptions and dental information

27:49

too many of the police departments

27:51

and sheriff's offices across the country

27:54

the hopes that someone would come for

27:57

nicer by doing the right thing the

27:59

get information how the see we're

28:01

gonna of

28:02

responses we can get back from the

28:04

f b i the other sheriff's departments police

28:06

departments across the country maybe

28:09

some bible recognizes who

28:11

individual and maybe we can identify

28:13

them

28:14

according to the dna dough project

28:17

a man who lived on lock layer row

28:19

came forward locklear road

28:21

was a narrow frontage road between the

28:23

towns of sumpter and florence the

28:26

man told police that in the early morning

28:28

hours of august not while

28:30

he was at home the heard a car

28:32

in the disk then said he

28:34

heard the sound of someone getting out

28:37

followed by gunshots and then

28:39

the sound of the car speeding

28:41

away the views are i've said before

28:44

right i hear gunshots from my house

28:46

from time to time frame of got some pretty

28:48

big open fields across

28:50

the street from me there there

28:53

are times when people are firing guns over

28:55

there then i do get this

28:57

you know you hear about this fine the

29:00

mean you remember these

29:03

specific things happening

29:06

i could see where this man would want

29:08

to come forward and least let police

29:10

know what he heard you're not

29:12

going to know what to make of it is not going to know

29:14

what it means but maybe

29:16

it would help the police in some way firming

29:19

some pretty distinctive sounds right the

29:21

gunshot the

29:24

reading car

29:26

you know burning off the tires and speeding off

29:28

you're going to kind of note those noises are

29:31

sure i'll do some people

29:34

the state gun fire for

29:36

far back far sure that happens

29:38

but

29:39

the me gunshots serve

29:42

pretty distinctive if you've been around

29:44

them if you've heard enough of them within

29:47

weeks of the slayings the sumpter daily

29:49

i've reported on a potential break

29:51

in the case regarding the identity

29:54

of their gender the man

29:56

contacted police informing them

29:58

that he recognized the young

30:00

woman from newspaper forwards

30:02

there's someone who dated the year before the

30:05

this sense reported as missing

30:08

though detectives traveled to brunswick

30:11

georgia where this girl's

30:13

parents live unfortunately

30:15

the photographs were in a match police

30:17

also received a tip that's a

30:19

van spawns as a garage

30:21

and florence county may have been driven

30:24

by the victims but this to

30:26

was quickly eliminate the

30:28

you knew this is gonna happen in every case

30:31

you want this day lose of

30:33

chips the comment you do on a day

30:35

lose of tips come in and he just wanted

30:37

to say day lose i did because

30:39

on your word of the day calendar and

30:41

i left that door open for you to use it

30:44

i prefer you are me to debuts

30:46

that out there the more tips the better

30:49

ray i mean that's just common sense

30:51

police are going to run as

30:54

many of them hopefully all them

30:56

as they can they're gonna run them down i

30:58

be the tough part is you're

31:01

gonna have a lot more mrs

31:03

then major

31:05

statistically yeah if

31:07

you get a hundred tips it's

31:09

possible that you strike out on all

31:11

hundred it as we

31:13

know he just sees to one

31:15

hey go back to the old sales day you know you gotta

31:18

have a hundred knows before we get that

31:20

one yes

31:21

you know when you dated back and

31:24

early days why it's all it's a numbers

31:26

game exactly and coffee is for closers

31:29

then

31:30

the investigation continues

31:32

law enforcement notified agencies

31:34

including interpol and us immigration

31:37

the county coroner von or more contacted

31:41

agencies in argentina

31:43

uruguay brazil

31:46

and the mediterranean that she continually

31:49

came up and the jumped out

31:52

at me gibbs you have

31:54

a county coroner from south

31:56

carolina contacting

31:59

all kinds of diff in agencies and

32:01

countries you in south

32:03

america the mediterranean

32:06

my assumption is it was all

32:09

based on the all of complex sir

32:11

so you have the potential for them being

32:13

from south america you ,

32:16

also have the potential for them being

32:18

from the mediterranean greece

32:21

or somewhere like that

32:23

the north carolina daily times news

32:26

reported that the american dental

32:28

association when as far

32:30

as publishing the forensics

32:32

odin towels the findings in

32:34

the hope that a dentist out there

32:36

somewhere would come forward identifying

32:40

the male victims dental work that

32:42

is to failed to yield

32:45

any leads i do think this was a very

32:47

smart thing to do we talked about

32:49

he had some pretty

32:51

complex dental work yeah

32:54

something that may be

32:56

specific dentist would recognize

32:59

and say hates that's my word

33:01

for i know him

33:04

see that were meanwhile

33:06

detectives were pretty sure that the letters

33:09

engraved inside the male victims

33:11

ring were likely his initials

33:13

i'll bigger the

33:15

really going out on alleged their idols

33:18

and so you pretty smart to believe

33:20

that those are an

33:22

issues one man came forward

33:24

claiming he'd met the victims

33:27

on the road in south carolina the

33:29

told police that the couple

33:31

was on their way to floor saying

33:34

that the male victim had

33:36

introduced himself as yeah

33:39

according to the dough network the man claimed

33:41

jock explained he was traveling around

33:43

the country richard cause some friction

33:46

with his father the was a well

33:48

respected done oh yeah

33:50

i think this went some credence

33:52

to the theory that the letters inside

33:55

the ring were his initials especially

33:58

when the wind is claimed he whacking nice

34:01

the man's right without your more

34:03

identification the

34:05

male victim became known as doctor

34:08

in his companion as

34:10

jane four months after

34:13

the murders a trucker name's george

34:15

henry was pulled over in december

34:17

nineteen seventy six for drunk

34:19

driving inside his vehicle

34:22

police found a three fifty seven smith

34:24

and wesson revolver with the serial

34:26

number scratched off that's never good

34:29

please really don't like that when you scratch

34:32

out the serial numbers that kind of

34:34

a dead giveaway that

34:36

your erupted no good

34:39

potentially because you don't

34:41

what is the purpose of scratching off the

34:43

serial numbers other than

34:45

you don't want that gun to be identified

34:48

as you don't want to be traced so why

34:50

would you not want that if you're

34:53

living within you know the

34:55

the bounds of the law

34:58

everything really quickly gives

35:00

police believe that the

35:02

same type of firearm we should

35:04

kill jack and jane they

35:07

have to be very interested very

35:09

interested the weapon was confiscated

35:11

and subjected to ballistic

35:14

the it turned out that he was

35:16

the smoking gun this was

35:18

the same firearm that was

35:20

used in the murders the

35:23

you think being in possession of a murder

35:25

weapon would be enough

35:27

to bring charge it was the only

35:29

circumstance and please

35:31

didn't have sufficient evidence to charge

35:34

henry with the murders according

35:36

to the greenwood industry henry

35:39

passed a polygraph test he

35:41

told investigators that on the night

35:43

the murders he was visiting his sick

35:45

wife in the hospital several

35:48

hours away from the crimes the

35:50

you know police were gonna let up on this gun

35:53

know they're gonna work they worked on

35:55

tracing the origin of the revolver

35:58

henry stated his brother given

36:00

to him for his birthday then then

36:02

later eventually admitted to filing

36:05

the serial number off according

36:07

to the website sumpter mystery

36:09

couple dot com investigators

36:12

trace the weapon back to a small south

36:14

carolina criminal gangs unfortunately

36:17

there doesn't appear to be much information available

36:20

about whether any further inquiries

36:22

regarding the firearm turned

36:24

out any potential the the

36:27

average ten or just got it as a birthday present

36:29

they chose the file the zero

36:32

number offer who knows

36:34

what is reason was yeah i mean

36:36

it sounds like his brother got it from

36:38

may be this reputable

36:41

source but i don't

36:43

know if there's anything illegal about it he

36:45

said have purchased it from a criminal

36:47

gang i guess i don't understand

36:49

the filing of the the serial

36:52

number off though because

36:54

that today will catch

36:56

you a serious sure i

36:58

don't know what to pony for that was

37:01

back in the seventies

37:04

samson is it seems only your even

37:06

back then yes i don't know how

37:09

severe the penalty would have been

37:12

now we mentioned the book of matches

37:14

that was found in jocks

37:16

genes the now they

37:19

originated from a truck stop

37:21

chain the tories learned

37:23

that the matches were

37:25

only sold in idaho new

37:27

mexico in nebraska some

37:29

reports also mentioned arizona

37:32

the location the

37:34

matches were sold by not

37:36

all according to the high point

37:38

enterprise after the tip about

37:41

the masses was publicly release

37:43

the nebraska man told police he

37:46

may have performed repairs on

37:48

a vehicle that was driven by

37:50

a couple who resembled the victim

37:53

this too

37:54

prove to be a dead end so you know

37:56

police are getting a lot of really good stuff

38:00

just doesn't lead anywhere

38:02

i mean if you look at these gibbs

38:04

on the surface these are very

38:07

promising leads they are they

38:09

just didn't pan out during

38:11

the first year of the investigation garcon

38:14

jane's bodies were kept at a south

38:17

carolina funeral home

38:18

to allow the public to be able to identify

38:21

them the claim there remains

38:24

the top of the cascades was

38:26

transparent

38:27

according to the greenwood index journal

38:30

people from texas rhode

38:32

island the one hand

38:35

contact two detectives to

38:37

see if the victims could be

38:39

people they knew who are miss

38:41

despite the cascades being air

38:43

time the decomposition

38:45

process couldn't be held offer an

38:48

entire year at pass without

38:50

anyone coming forward to claim

38:53

jaco or jane the

38:55

there's two things here to me number one

38:58

i was surprised that they could

39:00

pp two bodies

39:02

reserved as long as they could preserve for

39:04

a year now what doesn't

39:06

surprise me there you

39:09

have people from all over

39:11

who had a missing loved one

39:14

trying to figure out yeah

39:17

docker jane doe could be

39:20

that person yeah i

39:22

think any family member any mom

39:25

dad sister brother that

39:28

a family member disappear

39:30

we do anything in their power to try

39:32

to figure out what happened to them now

39:34

would include really keeping

39:37

an eye out for stories about

39:40

i'm identified individual

39:42

rights and then learning the

39:44

details of that story and

39:46

trying to figure out exactly be there

39:48

loved

39:49

the florence morning news covered the

39:51

church service held for jack and jane

39:54

on august fourteenth nineteen seventy

39:56

seven which was attended by hundreds

39:58

of people from

40:00

the local community they were laid

40:02

to rest at the bethel united methodist

40:04

church cemetery and oswego

40:07

south carolina thanks to the

40:09

sheriff's office and church trustees

40:12

their grave markers red mail

40:14

unknown and see mail

40:16

and the really gives years

40:18

pass without any meaningful

40:21

developments according to

40:23

the sumpter daily item the

40:25

potential lead in march nights new three

40:28

was eliminated after a young

40:30

woman reported missing

40:32

back in july nineteen seventy

40:34

six from lexington

40:36

county was said to have resembles

40:39

body was found out that the young woman had

40:42

returned home a month late the

40:44

nineteen ninety five thanks

40:46

to the persistence of county coroner

40:49

burnham more the double murders

40:51

were featured on the iconic show

40:54

the unsolved mysteries after

40:56

she made several requests

40:58

and we know sometimes it's a big help the

41:00

i can be huge

41:03

help in any case shows

41:05

like unsolved mysteries america's

41:08

most wanted you know

41:10

they reached a pretty large audience

41:13

and so because of that they

41:15

often generators a large number

41:17

of tips from viewers

41:20

but i want to go back to this verna more the

41:22

mechanic have debated by

41:25

her there she was just not

41:27

going to let this

41:29

case go if she contacted

41:33

a bunch of different countries

41:35

the tried to figure out who

41:37

these people were

41:38

she wouldn't let up trying

41:41

to get their case aired on unsolved

41:43

mysteries you really have to give enough for

41:45

her then in two thousand and

41:47

seven weird advances

41:50

in forensic technology lerner

41:52

requested for jobs in jane's

41:54

bodies to be exact to allow

41:57

for further testing in

41:59

an attempt you identify them this

42:01

process all their teeth

42:04

and bones samples extracted then

42:06

compared to mitochondrial

42:08

dna which was already on

42:10

file around the country if

42:13

either of their mothers had ever provided

42:15

dna to the authorities for a reason

42:18

there would ideally be a man

42:21

there was no match but the exercise

42:23

did solve one mr

42:25

finally there was confirmation the jock

42:27

insane we're not really though

42:30

i think once this was discovered

42:32

it went further way to the theory

42:35

that they were caught investigators

42:37

couldn't be certain of the nature

42:39

of their relationships beyond confirming

42:42

that the pair had been traveling together

42:44

before they require the arena continue

42:46

to work tirelessly on the case for

42:48

another two years until she retired

42:51

in two thousand nine

42:52

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give you an i talk about cases

43:58

that capture the attention of public

44:01

some songs lot of unsolved

44:03

cases yeah really capture

44:07

people's attention they become obsessed

44:09

with trying to solve the mystery

44:12

in his case was no exception

44:15

in two thousand and thirteen a south

44:17

carolina hampshire smooth named mathew

44:19

mcdaniel the decided to do

44:21

his own deep dive into the case according

44:24

to fox carolina news like

44:26

many people that he was bath

44:29

how now one the two people could

44:31

be viciously murder in remain

44:34

on identified for decades

44:36

the undertook hundreds of hours of research

44:39

and analysis this included

44:41

eventually reaching out to the sumpter county

44:43

sheriff's office suggesting

44:45

they contact the nonprofit volunteer

44:48

organization

44:49

the dna dope project to help

44:52

identify jock injury

44:54

thankfully the sheriff's office was receptive

44:56

to his the gas in

44:59

in june two thousand and nineteen

45:02

contacted the organization

45:04

which specializes in genetic genealogy

45:07

reason

45:08

according to a b c for news in

45:10

july two thousand two the organization

45:13

said jock in james dna samples

45:16

the california in alabama

45:18

for analysis in october

45:21

of that year they release

45:23

initial information about the pears

45:25

ancestor despite having

45:27

olives compliant soon those

45:30

were of european heritage using

45:33

jed match dot com

45:35

volunteer genealogy sound

45:37

possible relatives of the pair and

45:40

they provided their findings to

45:42

the sheriff's office in two thousand twenty

45:44

though gibbs we mentioned it right up front

45:47

yeah right jack in jane

45:49

remained on identified for

45:51

almost forty five years long time

45:54

that in early two thousand twenty one the

45:56

news report revealed startling

45:59

new information

46:00

as a result of the work by the

46:02

dna don't project that

46:04

was from pennsylvania

46:06

wow a b c for news confirm

46:08

that jane was from minnesota later

46:11

in january law enforcement called a press

46:13

conference where they announced

46:15

the john and jane had been formally

46:18

identified they were twenty nine

46:20

year old james paul froind

46:23

in twenty four year old pamela

46:25

may be james was

46:27

born in fits berg massachusetts

46:29

on september fourteenth nineteen

46:32

forty six the an only child

46:34

to his parents add a man loleta

46:37

when he was so a child's the

46:39

family moved to lane tasser pennsylvania

46:42

according to fox forty three news

46:45

as an adolescent james who was

46:47

known as gp the tended

46:49

jp mccaskill high school we

46:51

played on the baseball team and

46:53

graduated in nineteen sixty four

46:56

the following year the eighteen year old married

46:58

his high school girlfriend

47:00

heroin albright and the couple

47:02

went on to have a dog

47:04

in nineteen sixty six seems

47:06

his father adam passed away the age

47:08

of forty nine

47:09

according to the lancaster intelligencer

47:12

journal the game served with

47:14

us on after graduating

47:16

highschool the time

47:19

his father died the was

47:21

serving in german according

47:23

to debbie a c h fox fifty seven

47:25

news james file for divorce and

47:27

nineteen seventy one

47:29

he was last seen on christmas day

47:31

nineteen seventy five in lancaster

47:34

the best years work to ties many

47:36

loose ends together as possible

47:39

it emerged the james had come to own

47:41

a bowl of a watch

47:42

because his ex father in law worked

47:45

for the comp after james

47:47

disappeared the family had no

47:49

idea where he was

47:51

according to main cast wrong line and nineteen

47:53

eighty five the foreign started

47:55

the process of having him the

47:58

cleared legally dead

48:00

after another attempt by his ex

48:02

wife and nights and eighty eight this

48:04

was formula according

48:06

to us social security records

48:09

james's date of death was listed

48:11

as january nineteen eighty three this

48:14

has to be incredibly tough years

48:17

as a family

48:19

make the decision sir have

48:21

to declare years the

48:23

child years

48:25

it's on your or your exhales

48:27

man said and

48:29

it took awhile the you would expect

48:32

it to because the the

48:34

family wanna hold out hope that

48:36

this person is going to combat the

48:39

going to be sound the going to be found alive

48:42

james his mother died in two thousand four

48:45

now ever knowing what had happened

48:47

to her only child that's heartbreaking

48:49

it is hamill barclay was

48:51

born on december sixteenth nineteen

48:53

fifty one in redwood

48:55

county minnesota the her parents

48:58

robert and surely the attended

49:00

redwood falls high school where she

49:02

participated in the choir and various

49:04

vocal group

49:06

according to debbie a ch fox

49:08

forty seven news pamela was on track

49:10

to be tom miss redwood falls

49:12

in nineteen seventy one glad

49:15

she decided to leave minnesota the

49:17

tour the west coast

49:19

with her folk music trio called

49:21

some there's not a lot

49:23

known about her life during

49:25

this time what it is known that

49:27

she eventually moved colorado where

49:30

she married a man named gary

49:32

kennel the and nineteen seventy

49:34

two hamill was last seen in

49:37

december nineteen seventy five in

49:39

colorado springs and

49:41

was soon after reported missing

49:43

by her family the time she

49:45

injury were still married gary

49:47

ended up divorcing

49:50

there are more they are we going to resume the marriage

49:52

must have been pretty rocky the four

49:54

pm disappeared

49:56

gary file for divorce was finalized

49:58

and nineteen seventy six only a year after

50:01

she went

50:01

missing yeah doesn't seem like

50:04

he waded very long

50:06

most family unsuccessfully

50:08

tried to track her down there's

50:10

very little information out there retailing

50:13

exactly how and when james

50:16

and pamela mats and how long

50:18

they may have been traveling together the for

50:20

that fateful summer night what

50:22

he does appear the police

50:24

originally suspected that they were hitchhiking

50:27

their way around the country something

50:29

that was clarified at the two

50:31

thousand twenty one county sheriff's

50:33

press conference was the details

50:35

of the couples injury hamlin

50:38

james had been shot three times why

50:41

they had not as was previously

50:43

reported been shot in the thread the

50:45

county sheriff's office confirmed that

50:48

those pamela in james died

50:50

after being shot in the back of the head

50:52

the to me gives you know this revelation

50:56

that they were both shot in the head

50:59

as opposed to what had been reported

51:01

in or early on saturday brings

51:04

to mind the execution

51:06

style killed that's what we often

51:08

think of the is being

51:11

shot in the head we call it an execution

51:13

style

51:14

when james and pamela's identities

51:16

were v order a press conference the

51:18

sheriff's office announced that they were

51:20

pursuing several persons of interest

51:23

although they didn't indicate who

51:25

these people were according

51:28

to w i s news ten police

51:30

also commented that the

51:32

believe the murders were an isolated

51:34

and so no doubt police

51:37

uncovered some for there

51:39

was still a lot of questions or restore lot

51:41

on know journalists according

51:43

to the north carolina daily times

51:45

news investigators wondered

51:48

if the parent his derived

51:50

where the wrong person or the wrong people

51:53

or on the other hand had

51:55

james and pamela been driving

51:57

a vehicle then picked up some

51:59

his the kurds who shot him dead on the

52:01

side of the road and then drove off with their

52:03

view that we have to go

52:05

back to george him it

52:08

was picked up for drunk driving months

52:10

after the murders

52:12

to me henry is a

52:14

very intriguing yeah

52:17

obviously he had the murder weapon

52:19

with now he gave police

52:22

an alibi

52:23

i don't know gibbs are really couldn't

52:25

find anywhere if it

52:27

was certify were where

52:30

weather was verified or not or

52:32

verifiable this alibi

52:35

the problem is investigators can't

52:37

make any further inquiries with

52:39

henry because he passed away in nineteen

52:42

eighty two i don't know how you

52:44

take this guy asked to take

52:46

anyone who's in possession

52:48

of the murder weapon has

52:50

to be a pretty

52:51

serious person of interest is every relevant

52:54

right yeah i mean there's nothing you can

52:56

do to him now obviously

52:58

even if the you know the

53:01

the uncovered some additional information

53:05

you seen a lot of cases where alibis

53:07

were thought to be pretty

53:09

air tide turned out that they

53:12

weren't even true just don't know

53:14

with the sky

53:15

one him from his name that was thrown into the mix

53:17

was notorious serial killer

53:19

henry louis

53:21

as you might we talk about henry lee lucas

53:24

every episode

53:25

somehow he gets involved or

53:28

his name gets brought up it does pop

53:30

up a lot of it does specially babies

53:32

because any time somebody starts confessing

53:35

to a large number of crimes you

53:37

can't help but bring in henry

53:39

lucas

53:40

are you there is only men any without yes

53:42

i'm saying if we were talking to him right now

53:44

i'd say i've tried to down speculation

53:47

arose around lucas after he told

53:49

police that he was in south carolina

53:51

when the murders occurred according

53:53

to the greenwood index journal police

53:55

doubted he could the response i

53:58

mean we talked about him right

54:00

this was the guy who had

54:02

a demonstrated pad the

54:05

admitting to murders that

54:08

the didn't commit

54:09

it was proven right that he

54:12

confessed the murders that he didn't commit

54:15

then there was no compelling evidence

54:17

linking him to pamela james's

54:19

murder lucas later confessed

54:22

to to other murders in sumter county

54:24

one in nineteen seventy five and

54:26

the other and nineteen eighty two police

54:28

didn't find any links

54:30

between you have these claimed

54:33

these das and the das of hamlin

54:36

and james lucas died in

54:38

prison in two thousand one

54:40

you for me when it comes to henry

54:43

lee lucas i have a hard

54:45

time the them just because

54:48

he's confess everything grows he

54:50

did while he was alive so

54:53

much of them have been

54:55

proven to be

54:57

incorrect throat like it's literally been

54:59

proven that he couldn't have done would

55:01

you said it in what he said he did i

55:04

don't know that it's been proven

55:06

that couldn't have killed

55:09

hamlin james the what's

55:11

been reported as that

55:14

police down that

55:16

he could be responsible so very

55:18

or yeah to take it that way

55:20

we mentioned genealogy records

55:23

show that the divorce between pamela

55:25

and her strange husband gary was

55:28

finalized and nineteen seventy said eerie

55:30

later remarried and passed away in two thousand

55:33

eighteen a lot of cases

55:36

it's often the spouse of a person who

55:38

is responsible their das we know that

55:41

we see that in tons of cases

55:43

the in the research on this case is really

55:45

nothing to suggest the gary

55:47

was involved or that he

55:50

was considered a suspected

55:52

at any point that the press

55:54

conference announcing the identification

55:56

of james and pay law enforcement

55:58

invited matthew daniel to speak

56:01

member he's the guy who contacted

56:03

law enforcement encourage them

56:05

to pursue genetic

56:07

genealogy testing

56:09

matthew has an idea of who may be responsible

56:12

and his passes information a research

56:14

on to investigate one of the

56:16

theories posted on sumpter

56:18

mystery couple of dot com that

56:21

pamela in james's murders

56:23

the drug really

56:25

according to lancaster on line matthew

56:27

is even suggested that james

56:30

may have been the killers primary target

56:32

and pamela was simply in the wrong place

56:35

at the wrong time according to the sumpter

56:37

daily item at the time

56:39

of the murder hi ninety five

56:41

core door where pamela and james or

56:44

found well known as the main

56:46

route for transporting cocaine from

56:49

new york city to my

56:51

the i think when you consider the execution

56:53

style of the murderers the

56:55

knows

56:56

help support the theory that the killings

56:59

may have been targeted

57:00

because the investigation has been reopened

57:03

when are really privy to all the the

57:05

details the other thing that i think

57:07

people point to gibbs around

57:10

this fear the is you

57:13

know it being known that the

57:16

very least james was down and

57:18

for we mention sweet sebring

57:20

we mentioned the races okay

57:23

the do you have been in miami at one point

57:26

making his way up to your

57:29

yeah he meets up with pamela

57:32

we don't know possibility those

57:35

ruled out racy everything

57:37

is on the table everything is a possibility

57:40

and kill it is ruled out conclusive

57:43

then i also think that is

57:45

the draw two cases

57:47

like this that or unsolved

57:50

that have a great deal of mystery

57:52

surrounding them

57:54

that there are angles there

57:56

are theories to pursue things

57:59

to look into and a lot of people

58:01

find that extremely fast

58:03

there's no doubt the identification

58:06

of james and pamela has reinvigorated

58:08

the investigation we said it

58:10

early on

58:11

how do you really get the investigation

58:14

started when you don't

58:16

even know who these people they

58:18

will now we do the know who

58:20

they are

58:21

the i think that in and of itself

58:24

since you kick started the

58:26

investigation the the

58:29

questions remain they

58:31

were hurdles that law

58:33

enforcement the have to overcome

58:35

questions that they have to answer your what

58:38

really was the nature of

58:40

the relationship between james

58:42

and pamela i don't think it's

58:44

ever been confirmed where

58:46

they met brain how they met

58:49

how long they had been together

58:51

before the murders occurred if

58:54

you think about it there have been some very

58:57

recent developments right

58:59

in this case and when you

59:01

have that

59:03

these really old unsolved

59:05

cases he brings new hope

59:07

your everything can have gets reinvigorate

59:11

the guys yeah to think about

59:13

it if these two individuals

59:15

can be identified after

59:18

what forty five years or so

59:20

the news much better

59:23

hope in identifying

59:25

the killer killer's scherzer now

59:28

the killer or killers still going to

59:30

be a live that's a big question

59:34

even if it was

59:36

a young this killer

59:38

the group of killers will say

59:40

in their mid twenties and by

59:42

now the beast seventy some years old

59:44

right there so you

59:47

obviously every year that goes by

59:50

there's a chance that they may

59:52

no longer be alive the bill

59:54

would identify them lab was

59:56

a you even is the perpetrator

59:59

or perpetrators we're all the seats

1:00:01

yeah it would be huge to

1:00:03

identify they were

1:00:06

in and and give some kind

1:00:08

of fine now the

1:00:10

to this case you and i talked about

1:00:12

on our weekly patron

1:00:14

episode the case of

1:00:17

the durham family murders right and

1:00:19

that went back ray a

1:00:22

similar amount of time maybe even longer

1:00:25

they just recently kind

1:00:27

of announce that they believe

1:00:29

they know who the killers are so yeah

1:00:32

that's the thing you can never say

1:00:34

never

1:00:36

the on these types of cases because

1:00:38

some of these older cases are being solved

1:00:41

left and right it's very side it

1:00:43

is really is if you have any

1:00:45

information on the murders of pamela buckley

1:00:48

and james freud's you can contact

1:00:50

the sumpter county sheriff's office it

1:00:52

easier to reach for three six

1:00:55

two thousand

1:00:56

war you can provide an anonymous

1:00:58

tip to crimestoppers at

1:01:00

eight eight eight to seven four

1:01:03

six three seven two

1:01:05

that it gives for our case on

1:01:07

the unsolved murders of the sumpter

1:01:09

county those they're

1:01:11

more barkley and james

1:01:13

for

1:01:14

amazing that you they were

1:01:16

identified after so many years

1:01:19

it would be even more amazing

1:01:21

if law enforcement can

1:01:23

solve the murders of for the best

1:01:26

guess you gotta keep the hope a lot

1:01:28

and is also to me

1:01:31

i'm very positive side

1:01:33

the see law enforcement so working

1:01:35

these cases you're finding

1:01:38

things out your i get encouraged

1:01:41

when you know we talk about some

1:01:43

of these older unsolved cases and

1:01:45

things are still coming out and being

1:01:47

worked on and is they just haven't

1:01:49

given up on

1:01:51

yeah when a tip comes along they work

1:01:53

at noon hopefully it leads to something

1:01:56

so encouraging we've

1:01:58

got some voicemails you on check those out am

1:02:00

i can give you this is dawn from massachusetts

1:02:04

on a mail carrier

1:02:05

wanted to say thank you guys are all the

1:02:07

often so great clinton

1:02:10

area we love you guys

1:02:13

i think you're great and you

1:02:15

would be blown away if you have a wife

1:02:17

or okay to see how many mail

1:02:20

carriers carriers crime fanatics okay

1:02:23

thanks a safe and secure on time the

1:02:26

mail carriers and truckers man

1:02:29

so many listeners the

1:02:32

know superfast we do

1:02:34

the first more there in a vehicle for

1:02:36

long periods attack depending on what

1:02:38

kind of mail carrier you are

1:02:40

roster the cause you

1:02:42

know

1:02:43

the white of wanted but i was a mail

1:02:46

carrier one time yes you for her for

1:02:48

a summer yes but

1:02:50

you know for me i drove

1:02:52

the tracks and then now

1:02:55

and had to walk the route the

1:02:58

it could have used a walkman the

1:03:00

nowadays you would put your ear buds then

1:03:02

maybe if you're allowed to their

1:03:05

store you know some middle

1:03:07

carriers who deliver everything from

1:03:09

the track so they could just be blasting

1:03:11

it bowl tangles army

1:03:14

hey guys this is data from canada

1:03:16

again slices listen to

1:03:18

your iranian harmon the

1:03:21

nearest on top one about the little

1:03:23

boy that's missing i , has a son

1:03:25

for it is interesting i actually

1:03:28

had to go back back we listened

1:03:30

to the beginning the because

1:03:32

of the very beginning you say scary

1:03:35

dropped him off at school

1:03:37

and dropped off his jacket and backpack

1:03:40

at and school and then she takes

1:03:42

a picture of him in front of his is

1:03:44

as he his transfer thing but

1:03:47

then later on you say that same

1:03:49

day she had his jacket and

1:03:51

backpack and she washed them so

1:03:54

how did she gets his jacket and that he was

1:03:56

the best as usual i would listen to

1:03:58

go all the time you my favorite part for

1:04:00

sure i've , my

1:04:02

beloved both thanks bye

1:04:04

the i me i see gives that is

1:04:07

one of the say said people really

1:04:09

look at and say

1:04:12

well i did not look good for to it

1:04:14

certainly doesn't i know the washing

1:04:17

of the jacket the backpack i think

1:04:19

tank came from the

1:04:21

boy oh boy missing

1:04:23

by author rebecca morris we said

1:04:25

that it that's true

1:04:28

it is really have damning

1:04:31

type avid you'd have

1:04:33

to say that or it's or it's make every

1:04:36

one day that okay

1:04:38

how's she get that and why

1:04:40

would she feel the need to wash it off we

1:04:44

talked about all that but it

1:04:46

is something that kind of jumps out

1:04:48

hi my ign gave me this

1:04:50

is betty with i'm from

1:04:52

alabama and ours is calling

1:04:54

to say i love both

1:04:56

as the podcast and

1:04:59

, some catching up on all of on

1:05:01

but i just listened to the one own hint

1:05:03

or cafe them out of love that

1:05:05

one one system think

1:05:07

the and they go over you didn't mention

1:05:10

that part they actually scared me the most

1:05:12

when i'm asia

1:05:14

there was a tractor repairman

1:05:17

or or or some sort of a fair man

1:05:19

came mayor cases mayor

1:05:21

and apparently easier murderer

1:05:24

was still there because the dog was tired

1:05:26

and the barn when he first got there and

1:05:29

the and was actually caught

1:05:31

up even closer to heal them as

1:05:33

so far as the far door

1:05:36

and before he laughs and had that

1:05:38

always assists for me help and

1:05:41

i don't know is that for that common

1:05:44

of the facts or a

1:05:46

common a wider i wasn't sure well yo

1:05:49

didn't mention that part but

1:05:51

as love the sell his own thing

1:05:53

might have less than says yo are

1:05:56

cheaper to do working keep your own terms

1:05:58

then

1:06:00

i really appreciate the voicemail that one's

1:06:02

been a while give settle remember

1:06:04

the specifics quiet well

1:06:07

as the one we did just last week i

1:06:09

will say this there are times when

1:06:11

you and i are researching where

1:06:14

we find a piece of information we

1:06:17

can't find it anywhere else

1:06:20

so we don't use it in so

1:06:23

you may be a heard that somewhere

1:06:25

read it now it's possible that

1:06:27

it's a fact and we just missed it that's

1:06:30

absolutely possible but i know

1:06:32

there are times where we

1:06:34

purposefully leave things out

1:06:36

because we just can't corroborate

1:06:39

and we can't find them in more than

1:06:41

one play so we just

1:06:43

don't know the validity yeah lot of

1:06:45

est the point yeah so he

1:06:48

could be that or to just be that we missed

1:06:50

hi buddy that's it for another

1:06:53

episode of true crime all the time

1:06:55

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