0:00

West Memphis 3. West

0:03

Memphis 3. Damien

0:06

Eccles and Jason Baldwin.

0:12

Jesse Miss Kelly. West

0:15

Memphis 3. They were just 8

0:17

years old. Stephen

0:20

Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Myers. Bound

0:22

murdered, honked hide and naked in a

0:24

drainage ditch in West Memphis. West

0:27

Memphis 3. This

0:31

fight stands behind a

0:33

conviction. From my

0:35

understanding, there were two Jason

0:37

Baldwin's. I've always wondered when

0:39

Miss Kelly's giving this coerced

0:43

confession, do

0:45

you think that he was a good guy? Miss

0:50

Kelly's giving this coerced

0:52

confession. Do you

0:54

think that

0:57

he was speaking of the Jason

0:59

Baldwin that they arrested? Or do you think

1:01

he was just speaking to whatever

1:04

persons they were going to try to?

1:06

No, he knew exactly what he was

1:08

saying. And the reason he said it

1:10

was because that's what the cops wanted

1:12

him to say. And Jason

1:15

and Damien were inseparable. They

1:17

were like adjoined twins, literally.

1:20

They did everything together. But

1:23

they weren't very much alike. But

1:25

it doesn't forgive those attorneys for not putting

1:27

on an alibi defense. They had an alibi.

1:31

Are you able to take us through that a little bit? Yeah,

1:33

because that was the one day I was

1:35

at trial. That was when

1:37

the jury, actually the jury went

1:39

in the jury room. I wanted to see

1:41

what was going to happen obviously because I

1:43

was thinking there's no way. God,

1:46

they're going to convict these guys because there's

1:48

no evidence. And

1:50

so I was

1:52

stunned when they came back. And

1:55

the judge Read the verdict

1:58

and asked Damien if he had anything

2:00

to say. in Iraq likes him was

2:02

he said no fact I think it

2:04

is. Jackie said no and does made

2:06

say it out loud I remember very

2:08

clearly Jason same. Yeah. I'm

2:10

innocent. Of right now

2:12

the only two or three words that he gets

2:15

say they're an entire drown I begged his lawyers

2:17

let him to as the planet wouldn't. They

2:20

didn't put on any defense. And

2:22

slight they were scared to have their

2:24

own trial the jury would have seen

2:27

like you were talking about between the

2:29

two the contrast between Baldwin and Eccles

2:31

that that would have been a. An.

2:34

Obvious to the jury did these

2:36

are two very different personalities. He.

2:39

Had he had Baldwin taken the stand.

2:41

For people whose it's sort of like

2:43

permanent losing a child, it's It's something

2:45

that you've never experienced. It. It's

2:50

hard to understand but the me try

2:52

to make it. Understandable

2:54

and spratlys us as it was one

2:56

of my goals in the book to

2:59

do that. Now. May. Have

3:01

failed miserably, but I wanted to explain

3:03

to them to see how. Bad.

3:06

The satanic panic was. And

3:08

in this day in age of

3:10

for her sake, news in the

3:12

deep state, theories and all these

3:14

crazy notions on man, the Internet

3:16

turn. Back

3:19

then it was. Divorced

3:21

been in, this was a systemic

3:24

ritual and. That

3:26

was or series and they stuck

3:28

with it. And to Lays.

3:31

Down there scapegoats. And Damien was

3:34

the prime suspect because he was

3:36

a standout. He. says.

3:39

One hundred and one degrees and one

3:41

hundred percent humidity outside A or black

3:43

trenchcoat by peanuts. Combat

3:45

boots in a blank t shirt underneath

3:47

the way that the person's try to

3:49

tell the story on the internet or

3:51

on different podcast. That. They claimed

3:54

to have. a great understanding of

3:56

the cases they get they make it sound

3:58

like jesse just willy nilly all sudden decided,

4:00

Oh, I'm just gonna, I'm just talking and telling

4:02

and having a good time and telling it, telling

4:04

the story of how it happened. And

4:06

no, a lot of that was people pulling this

4:08

out of him and setting

4:11

him up to fail miserably.

4:14

Our psychologist called it cheating to

4:16

lose. Jesse will agree with

4:18

anything you say, just

4:21

because he's trying to

4:23

hide his intellectual disability.

4:26

Um, I started out as I

4:28

stated in the book. I got first person

4:30

I call was Park Deets because of the

4:33

Dahmer case. Uh, he was, uh,

4:35

the shining star and criminal

4:38

psychology at the time. And

4:40

I knew if he read this confession that, that,

4:42

um, he would be able to punch holes in

4:45

it, but he wouldn't even talk to me until

4:47

I wrote him a check for $15,000. Right.

4:50

And I didn't have 1500 to do that or

4:52

150 probably at that time. So

4:57

we ended up with, um, not

4:59

the best, but the worst. If

5:02

I'd been smart enough to read

5:04

John Grisham's book, a time to

5:06

kill, I would have thought

5:08

to ask my, uh, psychologist if he

5:11

had a damn license or not. And

5:13

he didn't. It

5:16

was like a nuclear bomb going off in

5:18

the courtroom. The guy lied to us when

5:20

we confronted him about it. Burnett wouldn't give

5:23

us a continuous to find somebody else to

5:25

evaluate him naturally. The kids never had the

5:27

best of anything in his life except for

5:30

Richard Offshay and Warren Holmes. And

5:33

some may say myself, but, but,

5:35

um, uh, I started at

5:37

the top everywhere I went. And I'm, I

5:40

got the best person on the planet for

5:42

false confessions. And I got the best person

5:44

on the planet for polygraph,

5:47

which Ms. Kelly passed, but

5:49

Burnett wouldn't let in even though

5:51

there was case law from the

5:53

Supreme court, including an Arkansas case

5:55

that said any Evidence tending to

5:58

show the innocence of the. Client

6:00

is admissible. But. He

6:03

wouldn't matter then, naturally were. and

6:05

you were outside of being an

6:07

attorney, you were. You were teaching

6:09

law. For. A period right? Oh

6:12

yes, odds are taught criminal

6:15

justice in the Constitution in

6:17

a Sociology class. The To

6:19

and and I think that's

6:21

how you know you had

6:23

it once you take your

6:25

anger out. I. Think that

6:27

that's how you have to kind

6:29

of deliver the story of, like

6:31

the teacher would standing in front

6:33

of the class, it's this. This.

6:36

Is the way it was. Then. Is

6:38

what happened Florida cause that's a

6:40

good point. Very

6:42

astute and in, you know,

6:45

The day the alford plea even though it

6:48

didn't understand it at like the world been

6:50

lifted off my shoulders. And

6:53

then pam arms and. I

6:56

was marked by are smart bought

6:58

her some source spend a long

7:01

week long day but. They

7:04

both came up to me in

7:06

the courtroom and made me promise

7:08

to that on the real killer.

7:10

So I went from been known

7:12

with this nightmare to the nightmare

7:14

start over again. But. What?

7:16

Can I say so? Here I am. All

7:18

these years later looking for a

7:21

killer of actually got a suspect?

7:23

Well and let's let's go doubtless

7:25

table that for a second. But

7:27

because we brought up Mark Buyers

7:29

see in my opinion. I.

7:33

You know I hate it. I

7:35

mean. He did the

7:37

whole list list let's try to his.

7:39

I'll try to make light of the

7:41

situation as best one can given the

7:43

severity of everything obviously. but. Mark.

7:46

Buyers to me is somebody that.

7:49

Could. Have had his own reality tv

7:51

show. You know you could just put

7:54

cameras and follow this guy around in

7:56

Hebei East. You can take your eyes

7:58

off of them for whatever. These and

8:00

he's a kind of stole the show

8:02

if you would it. Have.

8:05

Or. During the Paradise Lost of But. Oh.

8:08

You bet him several times what was

8:10

your first? Encounter with

8:12

Mark buyers. Lights.

8:15

Will. It was still in the day

8:17

when I. Was convinced.

8:19

Absolutely convinced that he was the

8:21

wounded or killed the kids in

8:24

them. I was

8:26

doing a live feed from

8:28

New York Gun Court t

8:30

V about. Damien

8:32

Echols Rule Thirty seven here. I

8:35

completed my segment and buyers

8:37

was next. And so this

8:40

is the first time I've

8:42

been within fifty feet of,

8:44

in, ah, striking distance. Yeah.

8:46

I guess this episode in this and

8:48

F F might be a better way

8:50

to put it to them. He came

8:53

up to me and. Took

8:55

my hand and I thought he broke

8:57

my hand ever did own and I

9:00

took that as a warning to back

9:02

off. To say he's a big boy

9:04

would be an understatement. I'm a

9:06

very large him and been. Ah

9:10

but on the dwarf compared to him

9:12

and that it felt like his hand

9:15

wrapped around mind was will be squeezed

9:17

it in the and literally thought he'd

9:19

broken my hand and I took that

9:21

as a warning to back off And

9:23

course that didn't back off and wouldn't.

9:27

Cause I had a duty to my

9:29

client. He and I actually the, you

9:31

know by the times we'd. Met

9:33

again I we're on the same things.

9:35

Oh and I think he realized it's

9:37

in. I was pretty stupid of me

9:40

to act like the the Clown on

9:42

Paradise Lost. Loved

9:44

his towards me. I think the I think

9:46

they kind of wound him up a little

9:49

bit out all deserve it did and the

9:51

second film was. No, there's no

9:53

question about it is an advocacy film

9:55

for the West Memphis sorry but then

9:57

which almost didn't happen. H B O

9:59

was. Threaten to be

10:01

sued by the Hobbs

10:03

family from for making

10:06

another film. And are

10:08

they they almost? candid. To.

10:10

Make the third one Now the second

10:12

one, the second. What? What am? I

10:14

wonder? why would the Hobbes family go

10:16

after them to cancel the sonic is

10:19

the set, makes them relive it everytime.

10:22

Something else comes out and and

10:24

I'll go then on the record

10:26

and apologize for that happening again.

10:30

And as don't completely understand their

10:32

pain because that eight year old

10:35

who passed away my kid was

10:37

thirty four. But. I do

10:39

understand better than I did then.

10:41

and it's It's horrible than enough,

10:43

but I remember too that founded

10:45

on my file, Miles Writing The

10:47

Book I didn't put it, but.

10:51

As. I remember writing a letter

10:53

to the executive producer at H

10:55

B O Sea Will Nevins begging

10:58

her to, but does. Come.

11:00

Out but the truth can man and let

11:02

that the film come out to the course.

11:04

As it turns out, I. Ultimately,

11:07

determines buyers couldn't have done it

11:09

because I can account for every

11:11

second of or he was at

11:13

the time of the murders when

11:15

when I saw that in your

11:18

buck I jumped off of my

11:20

couch and celebration because. He

11:22

was an easy. He didn't do

11:24

himself any favors like he'd look

11:26

guilty of a hammer and it.

11:29

But but one thing we did

11:31

when we covered this case on

11:33

from Crime Garage back in two

11:35

thousand and sixteen and we did

11:38

everything we could in two weeks

11:40

time to pull together all the

11:42

information on the confirmed time lines

11:44

of. The night that

11:46

they went missing up until pass that.

11:49

The. Time that the boys were found

11:51

an and we pulled all. Several

11:53

sources to confirm everything. And one thing

11:56

that we said at the end of

11:58

those three hours of our. coverage of

12:00

the case, we said, we can't tell you who

12:02

did it. We can tell you

12:04

who didn't do it. And one of those

12:06

persons is Mark Byers because we could not

12:09

find a, we could

12:11

not find more than a three or three

12:13

to five minute gap anywhere that

12:15

timeline that he was, that he was alone.

12:19

And, and so as guilty as he looked

12:22

on camera and paradise lost too, he just

12:24

simply couldn't have done it. And,

12:26

and to hear somebody of your level and

12:29

expertise to say the same thing, I felt,

12:31

I felt pretty proud of myself in that

12:33

moment. Well, you nailed it. You definitely did.

12:36

For sure. And one

12:38

of the best parts of paradise lost

12:40

three, um, perfect

12:43

story, I believe was

12:45

the name. Um, I

12:47

was David Letterman's top 10

12:49

reasons why I didn't do it. And

12:51

Terry Hobbs did. Um,

12:55

why do you think that this

12:57

is something I've always struggled with? Why

13:00

the hell didn't West Memphis

13:02

PD pull

13:04

in a bigger outfit to take

13:07

on this case in your opinion, this, I

13:09

get this will strictly be opinion, but. Well,

13:11

Mar Marle levered has pointed that out and

13:13

I don't know if it was in devil's,

13:16

not, I think it was. There

13:19

was some, I've been her subsequent

13:21

book. Potential shady activity going on.

13:24

Yes. There was, um, not

13:26

potential. It was actual, uh,

13:28

the FBI set up a

13:30

sting, uh, the

13:33

Graham, uh, park, uh,

13:35

in West Memphis and

13:37

someone faked a nine one one call and said,

13:39

there's a drug deal going down in the parking

13:42

lot and the drug task

13:44

force that Brent Davis had

13:46

exonerated earlier, one of

13:48

the prosecutors, uh, the chief

13:50

prosecutor. Um, and,

13:53

um, he had said

13:55

he looked into it and everything was

13:57

fine and dandy.

14:00

But the feds came in and set up

14:03

this thing and all

14:05

these guys show up and what do

14:08

you know, some of the money doesn't

14:10

get reported to the evidence locker.

14:14

And some of it was found in a

14:16

shoebox under an officer's bed. The

14:19

bills were marked. And

14:22

so at the time of

14:24

the murders, the Arkansas State

14:26

Police, who are much better

14:28

equipped to handle major

14:30

crime, because that's what they do. The

14:34

West Memphis police wouldn't let them in because

14:36

they were pissed off, they were being investigated.

14:39

And there were convictions. Now

14:42

I will say this, out of

14:44

fairness, the officer who had the

14:46

money under his bed must have

14:49

had the best lawyer, and he is a good lawyer

14:51

because I know who it is, is Bill Bristow from

14:54

Jonesboro. He got acquitted of that

14:57

even though the money was under his bed.

15:01

How about that? Hats off to Bill.

15:05

Everybody knows he's a great lawyer, but I

15:08

don't know how he pulled that one off. And meanwhile,

15:10

we say, you know,

15:12

then calling a bigger, better outfit with

15:14

more resources, which they

15:17

should have done. I mean, this

15:19

type of crime is extremely

15:21

rare. I mean, that's all

15:23

I do for the last eight years is

15:26

cover crime stories. And I

15:28

cannot think offhand

15:30

of another situation where there's,

15:33

well, other than the yogurt shop

15:37

case down in Texas, it's

15:40

anything similar. And

15:42

so it's extremely rare. But

15:45

meanwhile, they do contact the

15:47

FBI, John Douglas, Ken Lanning,

15:49

and the two of the

15:51

experts, I mean,

15:53

if there was a mountain of experts, these guys are at the top

15:55

of it. And these guys

15:57

are saying, say, Tannock.

16:00

ritual killing, no. Doesn't

16:02

really exist, doesn't truly

16:05

happen. And yet

16:07

they pursued this avenue

16:09

instead. Well, I had to because they were

16:11

stuck with Miss Kelly's confession. They couldn't come

16:13

in and say, Oh, we made a mistake.

16:15

But we're still going to try them anyway.

16:18

And that's fascinating because that

16:22

is in my book. And sitting here

16:25

at my desk, probably writing

16:27

a book a couple years ago,

16:29

and I get this text message

16:32

from a friend of mine. Actually,

16:35

it was my prosecutor's wife, Kimberly Warmoth.

16:38

And she said, I can't even

16:40

listen to an audible book without

16:43

your name being mentioned. And I said, What

16:45

are you talking about? And

16:47

she texted back and said, John Douglas talks

16:50

about you in his book. And I said, What

16:53

are you talking about? And

16:55

I didn't know the cases that haunt

16:57

us, I believe is sitting right here

17:00

in my bookshop. Let's see. Law

17:02

and disorder. Law. That's correct. Law and

17:04

disorder. And I think you're probably mentioned in

17:06

the cases that haunt us as well.

17:08

I need to look that up. I

17:11

didn't know about that one either. You

17:13

know, John Douglas worked on the

17:15

case with us. He

17:18

was brought in, primarily by

17:20

Peter Jackson and

17:22

Fran Walsh. He spent millions,

17:25

probably of their own money to, to

17:29

basically give the West Memphis three the

17:31

trial they never had. That was the

17:33

purpose of their documentary. The story goes

17:35

according to because I ordered the book immediately

17:38

and it took about three or four days

17:40

to get here. And, and I

17:42

opened it up. I didn't read the whole book.

17:44

I just read the part about the West Memphis

17:47

three. And, and he talks about

17:50

going returning from Arkansas. I

17:52

think he even mentioned about how hot

17:54

it was there, which

17:56

was true. And he ran into Ken.

18:00

and he said, hey Ken, I

18:03

was told that the prosecutors in

18:05

the West Memphis case actually called

18:07

for help and do you remember

18:09

anything like that? And Ken Lanning,

18:12

who had debunked the

18:15

theory of satanic ritual homicide,

18:18

told him that if you try the case that

18:20

way you'll be laughed out of the courtroom. And

18:23

of course they didn't get laughed out of the courtroom

18:25

because we're in the middle of the Bible Belt and

18:28

everybody takes the Bible

18:30

literally and believes in Satan. I'm

18:33

not mocking anybody's religion but I'm

18:35

just saying people in the Bible

18:37

Belt react differently than other people

18:39

in other places. So which

18:42

added to the satanic panic. But he

18:46

said, Ken said, the next thing I

18:48

knew I'm reading in the paper they

18:50

were all convicted. Douglas thought that was

18:52

hilarious that the prosecutors had

18:55

called and Ken said,

18:59

he said, well did they ever call you back?

19:01

He said, no, they didn't call me back. And

19:04

they did the same thing in the John

19:06

Vanay Ramsey case. The

19:09

FBI told them what

19:11

they thought and they didn't like the FBI's... The

19:13

prosecution didn't like what the FBI was saying.

19:16

Exactly. The same thing as in the West

19:18

Memphis case. Yeah. And to put it in

19:20

perspective a little bit, this may

19:22

not... A lot

19:24

of persons listening today, especially the younger audience may

19:27

not know what this means. But you know I

19:29

was looking up a lot of the local

19:32

newspaper articles going on at the

19:34

time in early May and early

19:36

June of 1993 in your area.

19:40

And I couldn't help but notice coming

19:42

across a June 3rd 1993 big advertisement

19:48

for Billy Graham TV special

19:50

titled The Value of a

19:52

Soul was going to

19:54

be on that night at 7

19:56

p.m. on WREG channel 3. And

20:01

that's what, three, four days

20:03

before Jesse Miskillie gives the

20:05

so-called confession to the police. And

20:09

you have Billy Graham

20:11

TV evangelist on

20:13

the local network there, delivering

20:15

the special, the value of a soul.

20:17

So yes, I mean, we

20:20

had a little bit of that in

20:22

the early 90s here in Ohio. Again, I

20:24

was very young, so I don't have a

20:26

great understanding of it. But I

20:28

could only imagine how much stronger

20:32

that was in the

20:34

South. It was palpable, and

20:36

it's like I told Eddie Vitter at

20:39

our meeting, our first meeting. You

20:42

know, somebody like Damien Eccles, if you go to

20:44

New York or LA, there's a hundred

20:46

of them on the sidewalk when I walk them

20:49

down the street, Gothic

20:51

and, you know, the dark

20:53

makeup and all that jazz.

20:55

And but that doesn't happen

20:58

in Northeast Arkansas, not

21:00

even in Memphis. So

21:03

he stuck out like a sore thumb

21:05

and he was the perfect patsy. Well,

21:07

and he was young and dumb enough

21:09

that he liked kind of sticking out.

21:12

Oh, he toyed with the cops. Like

21:14

he played with them and said, asked

21:17

him, what do you think the killer would

21:19

be thinking at the time that

21:21

he was doing this? And the answer was

21:23

real spooky. And

21:26

it just, you know, the kid did

21:28

not do himself any favors and

21:30

he understands that now. And

21:33

I haven't seen him since Bruce

21:35

Sinofsky's memorial at

21:37

the Lincoln Center back

21:39

in 2015, I believe. Gosh,

21:43

I didn't see Michael's that long ago, but wow. He's

21:46

changed a tremendous amount. And of course,

21:48

you know, I could not be affected

21:50

by 18 years and 78 days

21:54

in a 10 by 10 concrete

21:56

tomb with nothing

21:58

to do. One hour. of

22:00

being outside with nothing to do.

22:02

I don't know how he survived

22:05

it, but he

22:09

said something about I was wearing

22:11

a tie. And he

22:14

said, hey, Dan, are we supposed to get dressed

22:16

up for this? And I said,

22:19

I don't know. This is just the way I

22:21

dress when I go places, because I didn't want

22:23

to embarrass him. And,

22:26

but I can tell it, it freaked him

22:28

out. So I mean, it

22:30

just, and who wouldn't be? I

22:33

really genuinely feel sorry for him. And I

22:37

hope some of these people are right. And, and

22:39

maybe, maybe my book did have

22:42

some impact on Arkansas Supreme Court's

22:44

decision to send it back to

22:46

the trial court for rethink the

22:48

concept of testing the

22:51

evidence with new DNA technology. And

22:54

of course, what's good

22:56

for Damien Eccles is good for Jesse,

22:59

Miss Kelly and Jason Baldwin. So

23:02

we've got a partial DNA. In

23:04

fact, there's just

23:06

not enough markers to put it in code as

23:08

we can exclude people, but not include them. So

23:10

maybe this will get us to where we need

23:12

to be. And here we

23:14

are, we still have this state of Arkansas

23:17

fighting its tooth and nail. I say us

23:19

because I consider it all of us in

23:21

this together, even though, you know,

23:23

I'm a judge, I don't practice law anymore. But

23:26

here they are. Their first story

23:28

was the evidence was lost in a

23:30

flood. And then the

23:33

second story was it burned

23:35

up in a fire. And then

23:37

suddenly, it magically reappeared. And

23:40

the evidence room of all places. And

23:43

so I mean, they will

23:46

not accept the fact that these kids

23:48

didn't do it, because it's going to

23:50

make them look like what they are.

23:52

And that is people who put the

23:54

wrong people in prison and don't want

23:56

to admit it. Is

24:24

it just me or why

24:27

does, you know, you said

24:29

the flood and I don't know why. I don't

24:31

know if this is a situation there, but I've

24:33

run into this situation many times talking to detectives

24:36

on cases that we cover, especially old

24:38

cases, cold cases. Why

24:41

does the evidence room always seem to be in

24:43

the basement of the building, right? The

24:46

location that would be most affected, should

24:48

there be a flood? Well,

24:50

they said that they moved it to

24:52

a different location to store it, which

24:55

really, they didn't have any

24:57

obligation to keep it at all because

24:59

the case was the legal conclusion. So

25:04

they said it was offsite and

25:07

then they suddenly found it in

25:10

the evidence room and they

25:12

moved the police station after the

25:14

trials in 94, sometime

25:16

after that, to an

25:18

old bank building that had gone out

25:20

of business. And so

25:22

the evidence room was actually the bank vault.

25:24

So it was well

25:27

protected in there, but they

25:29

denied they had it because they didn't want to deal

25:31

with it. I'm still speaking without

25:34

having had the benefit of reading the

25:36

full opinion, but it looks

25:39

like they're going to get to test the evidence to

25:41

me. And that could have huge

25:43

ramifications for the case. To

25:46

give those people out there who

25:48

are on the fence or who

25:50

are completely convinced that they're guilty,

25:53

let me ask them a question. And that

25:55

question is, do you

25:57

think that three kids... of

26:00

murdering three eight-year-old kids would

26:04

not roll over on each other.

26:06

That doesn't happen in real life. Right.

26:09

And in confession, air

26:11

quotes, confession aside, that's the thing that

26:13

I try to point out because there's

26:15

people that do say, well, Jesse Mescali

26:18

can confess five, six, seven, however many

26:20

times. But as far as I'm...

26:23

And yes, that does muddy the

26:25

waters a little bit. But he could, as

26:28

far as

26:31

courts go, he could

26:33

have confessed a thousand different times, but

26:35

he never was willing to

26:38

do it in court when

26:40

he was offered deals. And

26:42

the reason for that was,

26:44

is people who have MR

26:46

have this, and it's a

26:49

sort of unique trait for people that

26:52

have MR, they believe

26:54

they cannot tell a lie

26:56

in a courtroom. They can

26:58

lie on a Bible sitting at the

27:00

assistant warden's office at prison in

27:03

front of me. I've

27:06

seen people lie on the Bible before. He

27:08

wasn't there. He never was there because when

27:10

I showed him the

27:12

police map of where I

27:15

had him, I told him I needed

27:17

a Bible and I needed a crime

27:19

scene map and to white out where

27:21

the bodies were located. And I finally

27:23

got that and I asked Ms. Kelly

27:25

to point to where the bodies were

27:27

located. And he pointed to the

27:30

large pike that goes across the 10 mile

27:32

bayou because that came up so many times

27:34

during the trial. He was just guessing again.

27:37

That's all he was doing. And

27:39

so, but when I got down

27:41

to, are you going to testify or not?

27:43

He said, I can't lie on those boys

27:45

no more because they couldn't

27:47

lie in court because mentally handicapped

27:50

people think that that's a mortal

27:52

sin. It's like a little child,

27:54

right? The child wants

27:56

to please the person they're interacting

27:58

with. And it's almost

28:00

like he wants to

28:03

provide an answer that's the

28:05

answer that you're seeking rather

28:07

than the true answer. Exactly.

28:10

And Tim Durning, who was

28:12

our post-conviction forensic psychologist, he's

28:14

the one who interviewed Ms.

28:16

Kelly and provided his

28:19

findings, which changed my whole impression

28:21

of what Jesse and Ms. Kelly

28:24

was capable of intellectually. I mean,

28:26

it shocked me because I had

28:28

no experience whatsoever in dealing with

28:30

people who had MR or

28:33

who were intellectually challenged.

28:36

I couldn't understand. And it actually frustrated

28:38

me that I couldn't understand why can't

28:40

this kid get the story right? And

28:42

according to Dr.

28:45

Durning, people with MR believe they

28:47

can't tell a lie in the courtroom,

28:50

but they can lie anywhere else they want

28:52

to. But they can't do it in the

28:54

courtroom. And in reading in the transcript, I

28:58

called Jason Baldwin one night. He didn't answer, but

29:00

he called me the next day. And he said,

29:04

I heard they offered you five years

29:06

to testify against Damien. And he said,

29:08

yep, they did. A

29:10

prison sentence of five years? Yes. They

29:12

offered me five years to testify against

29:14

Damien, but I told them that. Just

29:18

so everybody out there listening completely

29:20

understands, he's facing what? Life in

29:22

prison? Or the death

29:24

penalty? Or the death penalty. And

29:27

instead, he's offered five years to

29:29

turn on his friend for

29:31

something that the state, or

29:33

at least the prosecutors, are convinced

29:35

that he is guilty of. And

29:37

we know he doesn't

29:39

– five years. He doesn't take

29:42

the five-year deal. I told Jason

29:45

after he confirmed that, I said,

29:47

you do understand that that would

29:49

have basically been time served. He

29:52

goes, yeah, that's what they told me. And

29:54

I didn't take it. And

29:56

he was willing to spend another

29:58

five years in prison. years waiting to

30:01

get a new trial if necessary so that he

30:03

could be exonerated. But instead

30:05

he sacrificed himself. Just like I

30:07

did when I fell on

30:09

my sword at the rule 37 and told

30:11

the truth. The other lawyers said, Oh no,

30:13

we did this because it was strategy and

30:15

we did a good job and, uh,

30:18

but I was the only one that told the truth. Let

30:20

me ask you this while we're talking about doing the wrong

30:22

thing and you can give me a

30:25

short answer, long answer, or you can say,

30:27

Nick, I'm a judge. I don't feel comfortable

30:29

answering that question. This

30:32

sounds like it's going to be exciting. Do

30:34

you think or have

30:36

evidence of that somebody

30:39

at the West Memphis police

30:41

department sold Jesse, Ms. Kelly's

30:44

so-called confession to the commercial

30:46

appeal, the newspaper. No,

30:49

I can never find it. Uh,

30:51

I firmly believe that it happened.

30:54

I looked for it. I did. How, I mean,

30:56

how else could they got? They there's no way

30:59

that they, I, so I did a word count

31:01

on the newspaper article of, of Ms. Kelly's

31:04

confession on the June,

31:07

June 7th, 1993 commercial appeal. It's

31:11

the headline on the front page. It's

31:14

1627 words about

31:17

it's practically his whole damn confession printed

31:19

in the newspaper, it paints the jury

31:21

pool. Any possibility. Absolutely.

31:24

So you're confident saying you,

31:27

we think, I think somebody sold it,

31:29

right? There's probably some money that exchange.

31:31

The only motive for doing

31:34

that other than money was

31:36

to get that information out there to

31:38

paint the jury pool. Oh, that's true.

31:40

And the only people who would have

31:42

had that motive would be somebody

31:45

who just walked by and sought setting

31:47

on the transcripts, setting on a table,

31:50

uh, maybe a Secretary

31:52

or somebody at the police department or even

31:54

the victim's parent, which I don't believe. I

31:57

think it was a cop, but I can't

31:59

prove that. I. Wish I

32:01

could. The closest I ever came was

32:03

I was involved in a. Panel.

32:06

Discussion with them are in

32:09

the former editor of the

32:11

midsouth, the of course opium

32:13

Around and Pick which is

32:15

now defunct Around completely out

32:18

of business newspapers are a

32:20

thing in the past pretty

32:22

much I asked him directly.

32:24

acid did you purchase that

32:27

from a police officer. Or.

32:29

Anybody else And. He

32:32

looked at me in his

32:34

body language. assists is the

32:36

answer hicks. He did buy

32:38

it from somebody. a cop.

32:40

But. He wouldn't answer the question that

32:42

term and course he didn't have to

32:45

answer the question but just asked in

32:47

it and seen. His response was enough

32:49

for me to know that he bought

32:51

it from somebody. otherwise it will amend

32:54

Copyright. Is very rare

32:56

for two grams or to be copyrighted.

32:58

Yeah, By. Newspaper, in fact, I've

33:00

never seen one to be honest with

33:02

each other. Like unicorns we are. He

33:04

talks about my bias, but. Obviously.

33:07

You've met. All.

33:10

Six, I'm guessing all six

33:12

of the parents of the

33:14

victims I've never met or

33:16

spoken to Mister More or

33:18

his wives, and they seem

33:20

to be the two that

33:23

are most kind of removed

33:25

from everything, right? Yeah, and

33:27

you gotta remember, And and

33:29

course, you know how I'm

33:31

in Arkansas, But. You

33:34

know, and the O J trial I use as

33:36

an example. Here's a

33:38

case. A

33:40

change The venue. To.

33:43

A larger courtroom to accommodate

33:45

the press and the live

33:47

coverage of the trial, And

33:49

by doing so, they increased

33:51

the number of African Americans

33:53

in the jury pool. The

33:57

riots were. Think. the

33:59

year before 92. And, and

34:04

I guess that was riding the king and

34:07

all that stuff. And so

34:09

you had a jury pool in LA,

34:13

who were very

34:15

distrustful of the police. And

34:17

in Arkansas, people

34:20

will buy a cop their

34:22

lunch or restaurants will give

34:24

them free coffee or food.

34:27

And everybody believes that the cops are

34:29

your best friend. And for the most

34:31

part, they are but there are some

34:33

who aren't. So

34:35

we, you know, to compare those

34:38

juries, we had a

34:40

jury that was distrustful of the police. Then

34:42

we had Mark Furman, who

34:45

said he didn't use it never use the n

34:47

word, but they had him on tape saying it

34:50

repeatedly. In our case, we

34:52

had jury pool who believed

34:54

everything the police would tell him that

34:56

Scott was green had yellow polka dots.

34:59

Right. So it's two different situations.

35:02

And I think I pointed it out in

35:04

the book that I think both juries got

35:06

it wrong for the wrong reason. Yeah,

35:09

it's just, and

35:11

of course, in any case, whether it's high

35:14

profile or not, a jury is only as

35:16

good as the evidence in front of it.

35:19

And Burnett would not let us put on our

35:21

case because he knew what would happen. We

35:24

almost won the case. We had

35:26

five votes for acquittal and

35:28

the first round of voting in

35:30

the jury room. Which is

35:32

amazing considering the circumstances. Yeah,

35:35

exactly. Dr. Ase been permitted

35:37

to testify. You and I might be

35:39

having the same conversation,

35:42

but it would have been 30

35:44

years ago. And

35:47

I would be a concillionaire. With

35:50

the Oh, yeah, of course. But

35:53

with the parents of the

35:55

victims, from

35:58

my general understanding, It

36:00

sounds like of the six that

36:04

likely maybe three of them were

36:06

swayed the other way of thinking

36:08

that the West Memphis Three were

36:10

innocent eventually. Mark Byers, his

36:13

wife, it's hard to say because unfortunately she

36:15

passed away years ago. Pam

36:18

Hobbs, of course, has

36:21

been very vocal at times

36:23

saying that she believes that the West

36:26

Memphis Three are innocent. But the Moores

36:28

seem to, from my understanding,

36:30

still believe that they're guilty and of course

36:32

Terry Hobbs as well. Maybe

36:34

Dana Moore may have wavered on

36:36

that a little bit at times. I don't know.

36:39

Mark She did, but I

36:41

never spoke to her. I did

36:44

speak to Terry Hobbs one time. Mark

36:46

I've actually spoken to Terry Hobbs a

36:48

couple days. He said that he would

36:50

do an interview with me if I sent

36:52

him the questions in advance. What

36:55

I did was I sent him the same

36:57

questions that the FBI said to ask every

37:00

person that you interview to the

37:02

West Memphis Three because I thought, well,

37:05

I thought it was a good idea because

37:10

I think it's brilliant. I'm

37:13

not trying to put any of the parents through

37:15

anything, but it's like, well, these were the questions

37:17

we were asking people that we knock on the

37:19

doors of. But I've been doing this long enough

37:21

to know that the younger the

37:23

victim, the smaller their social circle,

37:25

the less suspects

37:28

you have. He

37:31

told me I'll answer any question you

37:33

give me. I sent him the

37:35

same ones that the FBI told the West

37:38

Memphis PD to ask everybody they

37:40

encounter the same questions that

37:42

Jesse and Ms. Kelly would have answered and

37:44

Damien Eccles would have answered. I

37:47

was going to say between me and you, but there's going to be 100,000 people

37:49

that hear this. All

37:52

of a sudden a family emergency came up and

37:54

we never did the interview. They couldn't make it.

37:57

Yeah. But Anyway, you said you

37:59

talked to Terry. I. Did I

38:01

had? I had a strange encounter with

38:03

him during the second trial. I. I

38:06

didn't go in the courtroom because there

38:08

was a live feed in the hallway

38:10

and south is gonna watch and and.

38:12

Just because I was curious obviously

38:14

and I stepped out of the

38:17

courtroom go back to the parable

38:19

or our lives and and dumb

38:21

he approached me and percent the

38:23

oh fixing to get cast out

38:25

here and I'm afraid of zone

38:27

a very big fella and we're

38:29

now I'm a safety but them

38:31

take him up to Maine quite

38:33

graciously said hey I think you

38:35

did a good jobs for Miss

38:37

Kelly and I know you're just

38:39

doing your dumb. And

38:41

was actually very kind. I'm not

38:43

and I was. Stunned by

38:45

that not stand surprised. I was stunned

38:48

when his Dna might show up on

38:50

the the so strength Michael Moore

38:52

and that that that was that was

38:54

a shock. Won't let me interrupt you

38:57

here for a second because I was

38:59

trying to find this the other

39:01

day and met and you probably won't

39:03

know it off the top he your

39:06

head but I was. I

39:08

remember. Six Seven years

39:10

ago when I was looking at this case, that.

39:13

The the boys. Of

39:15

course, are tied up with the shoe laces,

39:17

but they're not necessarily tied up with their

39:19

own shoelaces, right? like some of them were

39:21

tied up with. with another

39:23

boys shoelaces. I only go down

39:25

that road because I think obviously

39:28

like. A wouldn't be

39:30

out of bounds to find something

39:32

of. Terry. Hobbs Dna.

39:36

At. That seen especially when Cb

39:38

branch who lives with him. Twenty.

39:40

Four seven in the same house.

39:44

But then it's a different victim.

39:46

Michael Moore A But I did.

39:48

I don't recall off hand who's

39:50

shoe laces. Tied Up

39:52

Michael Moore. I do recall

39:54

it was Michael Moore's Roka.

39:57

Percentage. Wise less likely that you would.

40:00

In. Terry. Hobbs his Dna

40:02

on Michael Moore shoelaces loop. Answer

40:04

the question is why I am

40:06

and I'm. There. Is

40:09

more evidence against Terry Hobbs and any

40:11

of the was montessori. Yes, And

40:14

but do I think Terry Hobbs

40:16

did it? Not

40:18

without some proof I don't think we're

40:20

doing with a serial killer. I get

40:22

why a lot of people as kind

40:24

of turned on Terry Hobbs and. And.

40:27

I know you said you were kind of

40:29

surprise and yes, you're surprised because. I.

40:32

Don't think you're saying years. You were

40:34

surprised by his demeanor toward you. Because.

40:37

He's. Under Suspicion. I think you're saying

40:40

that because you were surprised by his

40:42

demeanor, because he you're helping. Trying

40:45

to exonerate the person said were accused

40:47

of of the crimes. yeah minute. The

40:49

states that haute the whole encounters early

40:51

can home and me all these years.

40:54

and I'm he. He was very nice

40:56

when he spoke with me and not

40:58

that that means anything, but really, he

41:01

does have a history of bouncy. Sure

41:03

I am sister. Or

41:05

brother I say right or her

41:08

brother or sister or brother is

41:10

his brother in law in. Any.

41:12

Get out of events of it

41:14

but essentially saying one with victims

41:16

the West Memphis Three case and

41:19

but those two had a volatile

41:21

relationship. Don't you think they did?

41:23

They didn't in the. There's.

41:25

No doubt about that, but you know

41:28

I'm I'm I'm not going to point

41:30

the finger at Terry Hobbs. At.

41:33

This stage in the proceedings Because

41:35

I don't think there's enough. They're

41:37

not. yet. There may be Utterly

41:39

it's more dna testing done. Well.

41:41

Let's go down the serial killer route. Are

41:44

you want to expand on that? A Do

41:46

you feel comfortable expanding on that a little bit?

41:48

I mean, there were other child murders in

41:50

the area. And. obvious and

41:52

what what is so bazaars some of

41:55

them took place in may and i'm

41:57

not a big believer that these that

41:59

is like on TV or the movies where

42:01

these killers operate on

42:03

a calendar, so to speak,

42:06

or fascinated by numbers

42:08

or anything like that. But do you

42:10

think that this really

42:12

involves the blue

42:15

beacon and the traffic through

42:17

the area? Or

42:19

do you think it's somebody very local? If you

42:21

look at the crime scene overhead map

42:25

or the sketches that were made by

42:27

the police, that

42:30

truck stop was immediately adjacent

42:32

to the place where

42:34

they found the bodies in the

42:36

wooded area. You could literally throw

42:39

a baseball. So if you parked

42:41

up against the back and in

42:43

the photograph that HBO took, it

42:47

shows the trucks backed up as

42:49

far away from as

42:51

they could get from anybody else in the parking lot,

42:53

which is someone like 10 acres

42:56

or maybe more, which

42:58

means they didn't want to be bothered for whatever

43:00

reason. I don't remember whether I

43:02

addressed this in the book or not. I've slept

43:04

a couple of times since then, not many, but

43:06

a few. Those

43:08

shoelaces were tied in such a way

43:11

that I

43:13

don't think they were designed to keep

43:15

them from running or getting

43:17

away. I think they were designed

43:19

as carrying handles because you had

43:21

left foot to left ankle, right,

43:23

or what am I saying, left

43:25

wrist, left to left, right to

43:27

right. You think

43:29

they were killed elsewhere? I do.

43:32

I do. There was

43:34

no blood found there. There would have had to have

43:36

been a tremendous amount of blood. Different

43:38

location or in the back of an

43:40

empty 18-wheeler or in the cab of

43:42

an 18-wheeler. The best job to

43:44

have if you're a serial killer is a truck

43:47

driver so that you can be six states away

43:49

by the time they find the body, and

43:51

there's no connection. And the FBI has

43:53

told us that for years since the

43:55

90s, in fact. And so

43:57

you think it was somebody, you lean. toward

44:00

the idea that it would have been

44:02

somebody that was not local, that would

44:04

have had the ability to move on

44:07

very quickly. Yes, I

44:09

do. Do you have anybody in

44:12

particular? I do, but I don't want to

44:14

share that because I don't want to

44:17

impede my investigation. But it would

44:20

be a name that persons that

44:22

would be a name

44:24

that is not in

44:27

the Paradise Lost movies

44:29

or not in West

44:31

Memphis Three Books. I've never

44:34

spoken to anyone about it

44:36

without an NDA agreement. But

44:42

I can place an over-the-road

44:44

truck driver in the

44:47

area, the immediate area, who

44:49

confessed to killing someone and

44:52

told the police exactly where the body would

44:54

be found and it was found exactly where

44:56

he said it was in 1992. Do you,

45:00

does it have anything to do with

45:03

the Bojangles? No, I don't think so.

45:05

Do you think that's one of

45:07

the biggest missteps in this whole? I think

45:10

it was, and I'm not

45:12

saying this because for

45:14

the truth of the matter asserted, I'm

45:16

saying it because I believe that

45:19

is why that blood never made it to

45:21

Little Rock, to the crime lab because

45:25

they didn't want it to match

45:27

anything because they already had their three guys

45:29

wrapped up. That's just my

45:31

belief, but I

45:33

find it strangely coincidental and

45:36

I really don't believe in coincidences.

45:39

And on the night that the kids come up

45:41

missing and the

45:43

patrol was out looking for these

45:46

three kids and they

45:49

get a call from a fast food

45:51

place saying, hey this guy just stumbled

45:53

into our ladies

45:55

restroom and bled everywhere in

45:58

there and saturated rollers. toilet

46:00

paper with blood left behind some bloody

46:02

sunglasses which would have had fingerprints on

46:04

them and the cop pulls

46:06

through the dryer and says, nah, throw it

46:08

away, we don't care. And so

46:11

by the time they found the bodies the next

46:13

day they suddenly cared enough to come and take

46:15

the blood sample but Brian Riddes testified that he

46:17

lost it and never got sent to the crime

46:20

lab because by then they had their guys

46:22

and they had their story and they had to stick to

46:24

it. Even though the FBI

46:26

told them they were full of however

46:28

you want to phrase it. Again,

46:32

if you give me the answer, Nick,

46:34

I'm a judge and I don't feel

46:36

comfortable answering this question, I'll be fine

46:38

with that. But what do

46:40

you think and I know this

46:43

is pure speculation, complete absolute speculation

46:45

and it's probably not fair that

46:47

I'm asking this but I've met

46:51

Jason Baldwin very briefly. So you

46:54

are the person that is the

46:56

closest to this case that I've had

46:58

this level of interaction with. What

47:01

would be your speculation as

47:03

to what maybe officer

47:07

Regina Meeks might have seen had

47:10

she brushed off

47:12

the mosquitoes and

47:14

walked into the woods that

47:16

night? Well, I mean it's

47:18

obviously speculation. She

47:21

wouldn't get out of the car to walk into the fast

47:24

food restaurant and she

47:27

could have at least, at the very

47:29

least, bagged up the toilet paper roll

47:31

saturated with blood and the

47:34

sunglasses but

47:36

she told the manager to throw them away and

47:38

they were gone by the time that they

47:41

got there the next day and suddenly were

47:43

interested. Somehow again, for

47:45

reasons unknown that I can't prove

47:48

other than what the testimony of the officer was,

47:50

he says, I just lost it. How

47:54

do you lose that? I mean that

47:56

could be the most important evidence in the case

47:58

and how do you just lose something? like

48:00

that. And the

48:02

reason she wouldn't get out of her car to walk into

48:04

the woods is because if

48:06

you've ever been to Arkansas in May, the

48:10

mosquitoes are horrible. They're

48:13

hungry. And

48:15

very hungry. And

48:17

several of the officers stated that they

48:21

quit searching because of the

48:23

mosquitoes. But potentially could have

48:25

seen... Well, they could

48:27

have seen bodies floating. Whoever dumped

48:29

those bodies there, and one person

48:32

could have with those ligatures,

48:34

carried a kid that weighed 50

48:37

pounds in each hand and carried

48:39

two of them at once and

48:41

dump them in. Of course,

48:43

they make this big deal about

48:45

the clothes being stuck in the

48:47

mud after all the things they've said

48:49

that weren't true. How do you

48:52

believe them on that? Of course, they

48:54

did everything wrong at the crime scene. They

48:57

didn't drain the water

48:59

first. They felt around

49:01

and actually removed the

49:03

bodies. But they should have drained

49:05

it before they lifted the bodies

49:07

out. But instead, they trampled it

49:09

before they did the right thing. So I mean, it was

49:11

out of their league. And just

49:13

like this case was out of my

49:16

league in 1993. But

49:19

I'd love to have the chance to try it again. But

49:21

the offered plea has deprived

49:23

me of that. Do you think that

49:28

it's one killer or multiple killers? Well,

49:30

if you believe the handle theory, I

49:32

mean, I've never tested it. But I

49:34

mean, it seems logical.

49:38

Because if you're a truck driver, the

49:41

last thing you want to do is

49:43

dump the bodies somewhere other

49:46

than nearby because you don't want to be

49:48

pulled over three dead eight-year-olds in the back

49:50

of your truck. So

49:52

that's why it was

49:55

a dump site. And

49:57

also you'd want to be getting the heck out there

50:00

before they were found so you could get to the

50:02

next blue bacon truck

50:04

horse and disappear. You only

50:06

need them to be concealed

50:08

long enough for you to

50:11

get out of the eye.

50:13

Exactly, exactly. You know, Terry

50:15

Hobbes' alibi is weird and

50:17

suspicious to say the least, but

50:20

again, until we have

50:22

some evidence that a

50:25

prosecutor would actually use to

50:27

prosecute, it's not going to

50:30

happen. And the

50:32

sad truth of the matter is,

50:34

even if they did prosecute him, it

50:37

doesn't mean that it's an automatic

50:39

exoneration or pardon for the Smiths

50:41

story, because they're already out of

50:43

prison. So even

50:45

if they found the right

50:47

guy and corroborated the confession

50:49

or corroborated through DNA or

50:51

whatever, and nobody has

50:54

the ambition to do that, the

50:57

authorities here in Arkansas thought, I think

50:59

this is a closed deal. And that's

51:01

why I wrote the book so that

51:03

I could reopen the case

51:06

to some extent and get

51:08

people's minds thinking. I had

51:11

two retired FBI

51:13

profilers visit with me at the

51:15

crime scene, and they both

51:17

agreed that this was a serial killer of us

51:20

to crime because of it

51:23

being adjacent to the crime

51:25

scene, the truck horse and the truck

51:28

stop. And I know

51:31

John Douglas' theory is different.

51:33

I think he's a firm

51:35

believer that somebody these kids

51:37

knew were responsible, and he's

51:39

a much better profiler than I

51:43

am. When I got called to Quantico,

51:46

I turned it down. Sometimes

51:48

I wish I hadn't, because my life

51:51

would have been dramatically different. Now, I'll

51:53

give you one last question, and

51:55

I'll let you go, Judge. And I

51:57

so appreciate your time tonight. for

52:00

all of your insights into this case. I

52:02

know that the audience is going to enjoy

52:05

it and even more reason for them to go out

52:07

and pick up the book. But a

52:09

question that constantly comes

52:11

up in this

52:13

case is there

52:16

are several eyewitnesses in

52:18

the neighborhood with the young

52:20

boys that say that you

52:23

know at times when they were kind of

52:25

running through the neighborhood and having a good

52:27

old time Christopher, Stevie,

52:31

and Michael that

52:33

they were spotted with a fourth boy.

52:37

Anything that you've reviewed in

52:39

this case or your investigation

52:41

was that fourth child ever

52:44

identified? I believe the closest

52:46

that anybody's ever come

52:48

to finding out who that

52:51

was was Aaron Hutchinson.

52:54

That it might have been Aaron Hutchinson and

52:56

then he had departed from

52:58

the group before probably

53:01

that 6 30 timeline. Well I

53:04

don't think so that day. I think that

53:09

mother Victoria had moved

53:11

into a different school district. Okay.

53:13

I think that they hadn't

53:15

been friends in a while but used

53:18

to be close friends. But

53:20

it had been quite some time since

53:23

they'd hung out and

53:25

they weren't in the same school

53:27

district anymore. So that

53:29

fourth child that may have been

53:32

hanging out briefly with the boys

53:34

that evening as far as

53:36

we know has not been

53:38

fully identified or could be a misremembering

53:42

by... Well

53:45

I'll be honest with you and this is

53:47

a 32 year old memory. I

53:50

don't recall there ever being a mention of

53:53

a fourth boy other than Aaron

53:55

Hutchinson making the claim that he

53:57

witnessed the murders for a couple of years.

54:00

their fort that they had built in the patch

54:19

of woods but there was no fort. Even

54:21

the prosecutors were skeptical enough not to call

54:23

into the stand. In fact they hid him

54:25

out so nobody else could. The best book

54:27

about this case since Mara

54:30

Leavitt's book in 2002.

54:32

It's a must own. It's a must

54:35

read for everybody out there that has been

54:37

intrigued about this case all

54:39

these years later. And I

54:41

appreciate your candor and

54:43

your optimism that maybe that

54:46

we could find who

54:48

was in fact responsible one

54:50

day. Well if I may end on

54:52

with two quotes one being

54:55

short-tail and became my mantra

54:57

throughout this entire process was

54:59

never ever ever give up.

55:02

Perseverance does pay off in the end.

55:04

There's no question about that. John

55:06

Douglas told me to find the

55:09

artist look at the artwork.

55:22

Say it. I'll call the

55:24

police. Say nothing.

55:26

I'll call the police. Say

55:33

what happened to you? Say

55:35

what happened to you? I said

55:37

call the police. The border. The

55:40

border. He's kind of naked and it's way too well-smithic. Call

55:43

the police. All

56:05

that

56:07

puts

56:10

a

56:12

own

56:16

Things