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great. I

2:03

don't want a holy life of

2:05

prayer and contemplation. I want a life of

2:08

strife, lust, striving, seeking, struggling, and debauchery.

2:17

I'm not content to settle for one experience when there

2:19

is a whole lifetime of experiences to be had. I'm

2:24

so hungry for knowledge that I live several

2:26

lives at once to acquire it. A

2:29

Catholic and a Buddhist, a reader and a

2:31

writer, a sinner and a philosopher, a husband

2:33

and a father, a Native American and

2:35

a white man. I no longer

2:38

have any desire to fit into any one category.

2:47

The canvas on the altar was also given to me. Its

2:49

calligraphy translates to, moonbeams pierced to

2:51

the bottom of the pools. Yet

2:54

in the water, not a trace remains. I

2:58

have two definitions for

3:00

the word magic. The first

3:03

is knowing that I can affect change through my

3:05

own will, even behind these bars. The other

3:09

meaning is more experiential, seeing

3:11

beauty for a moment in the midst of

3:14

the mundane. In the movies, it's always the

3:16

other prisoners you have to watch out for. In real

3:18

life, it's the guards and the administration. They

3:24

go out of their way to make your life harder and

3:26

more stressful than it already is, as

3:29

if being on death row were not enough. They

3:32

can send a man to prison for writing bad

3:34

checks and then torment him there until he becomes

3:36

a violent offender. One

3:39

of our, Laurie and mine's, greatest

3:41

inventions was moonwater. Another

3:44

prisoner once discovered me making moonwater and said

3:46

it was so illogical it nearly drove him

3:48

insane. For

3:51

months afterward he was stomping his feet

3:53

in frustration and billow. This shit is

3:55

crazy. It makes no sense. That

3:57

shit is making my head hurt. For

4:00

some reason, the thought of it seemed to hurt his

4:02

mind. Then again, he was

4:04

a little unbalanced to begin with. Moon

4:08

water can be made only once a month, on the

4:10

night of the full moon. After

4:12

the sun goes down, and the moon rides

4:15

high, you fill a container with water, and

4:17

set it on a window ledge, so that the

4:19

moon casts a reflection in it. You

4:22

must leave it there all night, so that it catches

4:24

as much of the moon's light as possible. You

4:27

have to remove it right before morning, so that

4:29

the sun's light never touches it. It

4:32

must then be kept in a dark place. My

4:35

wife and I did this every full moon for years,

4:38

and we would take a single sip of the water

4:40

at the same time each night, while thinking of each

4:42

other. In that moment

4:44

we were united, no matter how far apart we

4:46

might be. You

4:48

take a single sip each night, so that you

4:50

have enough to last the entire month. For

4:54

every way the system attempts to separate us, we

4:56

can't help but seek out new ways to pull

4:58

ourselves together. In the

5:00

end, hatefulness and ignorance always fail in

5:02

the face of intelligence and love. The

5:06

proof is in the moon water. Moon

5:08

beams pierce to the bottom of the pools,

5:10

yet in the water, not a trace remains.

5:13

Not a

5:15

trace remains. Not a trace remains. Not

5:19

a trace remains. Welcome

5:33

to True Crime Garage, wherever you are, whatever

5:35

you are doing. Thanks for listening. I'm Nick,

5:37

your host, and with me, the

5:39

only state-certified death metal summer

5:42

camp counselor, the captain. Rock

5:45

and roll! Hooch-a-coo!

5:48

Oh, I just blew up my vocal cords. It's

5:51

good to see you, and it's good to be

5:54

seen. Yeah, welcome to the after party. We are

5:56

sitting here, staying up late. Garage

5:58

is open. It's starting to cool down

6:00

out. outside, love these summertime nights. Well

6:04

we had to do a part three of this

6:06

because it's just so huge and we, I

6:09

don't even think we're going to cover all

6:11

the details anyways but we're going

6:13

to do our best. This would have to

6:15

be like a 20 parter and I just. Yeah

6:18

Captain if you weren't so long winded we would have been

6:20

able to get through this and to episode.

6:22

I try to keep my mouth shut for these but we

6:24

want to put out another episode, two

6:26

episodes in one week as

6:29

a thank you to all the support

6:31

that we've got in season three and

6:33

the growing of the show being in

6:35

Rolling Stone magazine. Everything that you guys

6:38

do for the show it's beautiful, we appreciate

6:40

it and we're trying to give you back

6:43

as much as you give us. So thank you for

6:45

joining us each week in the garage and thank you

6:47

to our good friends who signed up on

6:50

the mailing list and joined the True Crime

6:52

Garage Army and I want

6:54

to thank Wesley from San Diego,

6:56

California for his donation. Huge donation.

6:59

Providing the beer and bringing the beer to the

7:01

after party, it's very special. He brought the beer

7:03

not just for us but for everybody. He rolled

7:06

in a keg. And if you want to support

7:08

the show just go to truecrimegarage.com, we have old

7:11

episodes, bonus episodes, we

7:13

sell t-shirts and stuff like that so let's just

7:15

get done with the business and let's get right

7:17

into part three, West Memphis. Yes

7:20

this is episode three, I recommend listening to them

7:22

in order but you're welcome to, listen to them

7:24

in any order you see fit. So if you

7:26

want to start with this one, welcome to the

7:29

after party. Where we left

7:31

off, the police had just picked up

7:33

Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. They brought him

7:35

to the police department and they were

7:37

going to interview him. Now they're interested

7:39

in him because he knows of some

7:41

characters that they are interested in, Jason

7:43

Baldwin and Damien Eccles. And this is

7:46

a list that was put together by

7:48

the juvenile officer and he

7:50

basically came up with a list of about

7:52

eight people that he would say that maybe

7:54

would have something to do with these murders.

7:56

And Jesse's interested in talking to the police

7:58

because one, he seems to be a bit

8:00

of a helpful character and two, he

8:03

has recently found out that there is reward

8:05

money and if he knows anything about this

8:07

case he should tell them so that

8:09

he could help him and his family

8:12

get receive that money. It's about

8:14

10 a.m. when they pick

8:16

up Jesse, Miss Kelly and take him to

8:18

the police department. Now this is approximately a

8:20

month after the murders so the

8:22

heat is on for the police and

8:24

they need to solve this thing soon

8:26

because there's panic. There's been three boys

8:28

that started off missing. They were found

8:30

dead. They were found terribly mutilated and

8:33

this crime needs to be solved. Yeah,

8:35

the crime happened on May 5th and

8:38

now he's being interviewed on June the

8:40

3rd. So they have him and

8:42

they're talking to him. They're gonna question him and they

8:44

ask him. One thing that I found

8:46

interesting, Captain, is that they came up with with

8:48

the help of the FBI. They

8:51

came up with a list of questions that they should

8:53

ask people. Now these sometimes this is

8:55

somebody that maybe they just knocked on their

8:57

door or maybe that's somebody that was of

8:59

interest and they brought them to the police

9:02

department but they tried to ask most of

9:04

the people about the same questions and first

9:06

thing they want to know is does

9:09

he know anything about the murders or has he

9:11

heard anything about the murders? Well Jesse

9:13

would explain to them that he knew

9:16

of the murders because he was on his way to

9:18

work and he had heard on the

9:20

news he was going to go do a roofing

9:22

job and he had heard on the news

9:24

that the boys were missing. So

9:26

we can assume that this is May

9:28

6th. This is not May 5th because

9:31

it's being reported in the news. Now

9:33

he says that same day he had come home

9:36

and when he was done with work a friend of

9:38

his had told him that the boys had been found.

9:41

So we do know that this is May 6th because

9:43

they were found in the afternoon that day. Does

9:46

he know anything about Damien Eccles or does he

9:49

know anything about Jason Baldwin? And he says yes

9:51

I know them. I know Jason Baldwin.

9:53

He's a nice guy and we've been friends

9:55

from time to time and I don't

9:58

really know Damien Eccles. I know who he is. is.

10:00

I think he's kind of weird, but

10:02

I know he's a good friend of Jason Baldwin's. And

10:05

after they get talking to him for a while, they

10:07

ask him if he would like to take a polygraph

10:09

test. And he agrees to it.

10:11

He says he would have no problem doing so.

10:14

And of course, they need again to

10:16

get the permission from his father. They

10:19

find his father. His father's at like

10:21

a fast-food restaurant and he signs, he

10:24

says, yeah, sure, no problem. I'll sign the paper. And

10:26

so now they have permission to give him

10:29

the polygraph. They ask him only about six

10:31

or seven questions. I don't have them in

10:33

front of me. But basically, it's simple questions.

10:35

Things like, do you

10:37

know anything about the murders? Have you heard anything

10:39

about the murders? Do you know who killed these

10:42

boys? That's a questionnaire that they had. And

10:45

within those questions, they're going to sprinkle in things

10:47

that may or may not have anything to do

10:49

with the case that they're looking into. And one

10:51

of those questions that they ask him is, have

10:54

you ever done drugs? And

10:56

he basically says, no, to most of these

10:58

questions. He doesn't know who killed these boys.

11:00

He doesn't know much about

11:02

the murder. No, he's never done drugs.

11:05

And they come back to him and they explain to

11:07

him, you are lying. We

11:10

know that you're lying. How do we

11:12

know? This machine that we have, it

11:15

tells us that you're lying. This is a secret machine. It's

11:18

actually hooked up to your brain. And

11:20

your brain is telling us that you're lying.

11:23

Well, this confuses Jesse. And

11:26

he... Let's go back. Jesse's

11:28

a simple-minded guy. Yeah. So for

11:30

the people that want to point

11:32

out that the West Memphis Three

11:34

are innocent, you will hear them

11:36

say that he has an IQ as low as 68 or

11:38

67. For the people

11:41

that want to say that they're guilty, sometimes they

11:43

report that his IQ is as high as 79

11:46

or 80. So it all depends on

11:48

what type of defense you're on. And some people

11:50

like to say, like, he has a handicap. I

11:52

don't like to think of him like that. I

11:55

just think he's very simple. And

11:57

that's the way I'd like to view it. So

12:00

he's confused by being told that he's lying

12:02

and they point out to him, well, we

12:04

know that you've done drugs because we've seen

12:06

you sell them. And he explains to them,

12:08

I've never sold them, but okay, yes, I

12:10

have done drugs. So now

12:12

they're getting him to admit to some things.

12:16

And they start with what we're going

12:18

to call an interrogation. What I'm gonna

12:20

call, they started with questions, they moved

12:22

on to the polygraph. Now they're gonna

12:24

say they're questioning him more, this

12:27

is an interrogation. And

12:29

they believe that he knows something

12:31

of these murders. And he knows

12:33

more than just hearing about it from his friends. So

12:37

he starts to agree

12:40

with some of the things that they're telling him. And

12:42

he's gonna start off by telling them that,

12:45

yes, he was in Robin Hood Hills and

12:47

he had been there before. And

12:49

he got there around 9 a.m. And

12:53

that- Well, he says he woke up at 9 a.m. But

12:56

then he got there about 12. Well,

12:59

the first state portions of the questions, he says

13:01

he was there as early as 9. And

13:04

they will coax him a little bit

13:06

more and that eventually moves to noon.

13:09

Yeah, and online, it's kinda hard

13:11

to find, but there's two recordings.

13:13

One of the first confession, the

13:15

first statement made, and then

13:17

the second one. But you can also find the one

13:20

that happened about a year or so later. So

13:22

if you're interested in those, those are

13:24

available on the internet. Real

13:26

quickly, I'm gonna try to go through his first

13:28

confession. I'm just gonna sum it up real quick.

13:31

And we'll go through some questionable things

13:33

with it. But basically he says that

13:36

he met Jesse and, I'm sorry, that

13:38

Jesse had met Jason and

13:40

Damien at Robin Hood Hills. And

13:42

he had got there in the morning time. And

13:44

he walked. He walked there and the other boys

13:46

had walked there as well. And

13:48

he states that that's when he saw the three

13:50

kids and

13:53

they hollered at him to come into the woods. Damien

13:55

hollered at him. And so

13:57

the kids come in there and he says

13:59

that he saw. Damien hit the one

14:01

boy and brews him up real bad.

14:04

He says that Jason starts to attack one of

14:07

the other boys and

14:09

then at this point the police are already

14:12

they're concerned about this potential

14:14

confession that they're getting because they know

14:16

that the police they know that the

14:18

kids were at school that day. There

14:21

was no way for them to have been there at 9

14:23

a.m. or yeah or even

14:26

if you go with the 12 o'clock they're not going to

14:28

be out of school by that point and

14:30

then Jesse then says well the boys

14:32

skip school. Yeah well he starts off

14:34

by saying that he didn't go to school. Right. Well

14:36

I didn't go to school and they go well yeah

14:39

but the boys were in school and he goes no

14:41

they skip school. Right. And so they're

14:45

walking him further down the road and

14:47

further down on this confession and

14:50

he starts to get a little more

14:52

elaborate with what he sees and

14:54

he starts to say

14:56

you know they want to know if there

14:58

was anything sexual going on and

15:01

he explains that Damien and Jason

15:03

started screwing them and stuff I

15:05

believe is pretty much what he

15:08

says. Yeah and then basically

15:10

what he's saying is that they were trying to

15:12

and then well he said well

15:14

what do you mean by that? He said well

15:16

that they pulled off their pants so he was

15:18

just assuming that they were

15:21

going to try to screw the boys and

15:23

then he goes well what makes you so

15:25

sure that that is what Damien

15:27

was going to do and he's like well Damien had his

15:29

pants on button. And at some

15:31

point it's a little unclear to me if it's if

15:33

it it wasn't during the

15:35

interrogation but there's multiple interrogations and

15:38

there's different parts that are recorded

15:40

of the confession. Right. But

15:42

some things that may have scared

15:44

Jesse into opening up or to

15:47

creating a story to tell them

15:50

the police use some tactics here. They

15:53

had Gitchill, Gary Gitchill the

15:55

lead investigator. He had drawn

15:57

a circle and he put three dots

15:59

inside of the circle and he put X's

16:01

all around the circle and he told Jesse

16:03

he said you see the circle those

16:06

three dots inside well that's you

16:08

Jason and Damien those

16:10

X's all around the circle those

16:13

are police now do you

16:15

want to be inside that circle or do you want

16:17

to be outside of that circle right and he

16:19

says well I want to be outside of the circle and

16:23

Gitchill would go on to show him

16:25

a picture of one of the dead

16:27

boys yeah now later Jesse would say

16:29

that this shocked him that he had saw a

16:31

picture of the face of one of the dead

16:34

boys and he could see that he was all

16:36

beat up and he was all bruised up and

16:39

he probably had never seen a picture

16:41

of a dead person let alone a

16:43

dead child before hopefully he never did

16:45

well this shocks him well if it

16:48

couldn't shock him any more than this

16:50

shortly afterwards Gitchill

16:53

would play a audio tape for

16:55

Jesse Miss Kelly and

16:58

what it is is it's a child's

17:00

voice and he says one sentence the

17:03

boy on the recording says

17:06

nobody knows what happened but me

17:10

this terrifies Jesse he doesn't

17:12

know what to think of the picture he

17:14

doesn't know what to think of the recording

17:16

he doesn't know who's in the recording or

17:18

why it that was

17:20

said well he's going

17:22

on and on into this confession and it's a

17:25

lot of back and forth you people

17:27

have seen this bits of this confession

17:29

in the movies in the documentaries you

17:31

can find some of it online those

17:33

documentaries are paradise lost or west of

17:35

Memphis and I don't know that we're

17:38

gonna go into every bit of it because we'd be

17:40

here for now we have another

17:42

after party after this one I mean look

17:44

if you're really interested in this case start

17:46

with the paradise lost it's not going to

17:48

give you a bunch of information I mean

17:50

start with our start with our podcast obviously

17:52

I'm actually pretty proud of what we've done

17:54

so far with the first two parts with

17:57

the facts that were put in now and But

18:00

check out those documentaries in the west of Memphis

18:02

and then you were telling me if you're really

18:04

into this case You want to check out devil's

18:06

not yeah, the devil's not was a

18:09

book that came out I believe it was

18:11

definitely after the first paradise lost movie and

18:13

I believe before the second one I actually

18:15

think that the second

18:17

one the second paradise lost that

18:19

starts to implicate Maybe John Mark

18:21

Byers as having been the perpetrator

18:23

of this crime The devil's

18:26

not hints around that quite a bit

18:28

Anybody that's read that knows what I'm talking

18:31

about and maybe paradise lost got that idea

18:33

from the book and then they recently made

18:35

a movie called

18:37

devil's not and I heard that

18:39

they changed the Screenplay a

18:41

little bit because they wanted to have

18:43

it match with the new evidence that

18:45

has come out But

18:48

anyways There's this confession and

18:50

it's very questionable Now

18:52

to me the first statement given sounds

18:57

It sounds like my gut is

18:59

telling me that he's telling the truth But

19:02

they're they're also leading him

19:05

and then all the information that you know

19:07

We you just gave beforehand that just makes

19:09

you question. Why is this kid confessing at

19:11

all? well, and when you say the first

19:14

statement what you're referring to is there's multiple

19:17

recordings of the confessions right

19:19

and You're talking about

19:22

the first confession that's recorded in

19:24

its entirety sounds what you

19:26

said what it sounds it sounds Legitimate

19:28

to me like my gut is

19:30

telling me that he's that he's

19:33

telling the truth. That's my thought

19:35

but Nothing

19:37

else makes sense to me Okay

19:39

well the as far as the confessions go

19:41

and I've listened to them in their entirety

19:44

and I and I know

19:46

you have as well and I will say

19:48

let's just go through some things that are

19:50

of question Okay now these might be things

19:52

that point towards his guilt or

19:54

things that might point towards him being innocent or

19:56

that the police are Leading or what have you

19:59

The first thing? The. Obvious thing that

20:01

stands out most people's mind as the

20:03

times by the time doesn't make any

20:05

sense. Well the. The

20:08

prosecution's ah timeline through out

20:10

the confessions that were taken

20:13

on this deck. The.

20:15

Times Jesse will change times. eight times.

20:17

He will give eight different times of

20:19

day for when he first met up

20:21

with Damian and and Jace right in.

20:23

The investigators are always leaving him later

20:25

in the day. they're trying to get

20:28

away from that nine o'clock for trying

20:30

to get away from that noone. The

20:32

investigators know that the boys were last

20:34

seen around six or six thirty Pm.

20:36

So they need they need Damien, Jason,

20:38

and Jesse to have met up with

20:40

those boys at that time Or later.

20:42

right? Not at Noon. So as we

20:44

said, Jesse starts. Off saying nine and

20:46

the nine becomes noon. And

20:48

then noon becomes after after after work.

20:51

It was after work was about five

20:53

o'clock. While. Jesse did you have your

20:55

watch with you that day Now while than

20:57

you might not know what time of was

20:59

us you said it was five or six.

21:01

Now we're up to six and then later

21:03

become seven or eight. Now was it like

21:05

or was a dark and then get all

21:07

says Well that sums it up because just

21:09

he says well it was It was getting

21:11

dark when we we have reported in the

21:13

first episodes that the moon that the the

21:16

sun went down moon came up about seven

21:18

forty one that day. It's like my favorite

21:20

line or one of my favorite lines in

21:22

the movie. From perks of being a wallflower.

21:24

The main character asks dad for fifty

21:26

dollar bill. The dad says twenty dollars

21:29

for you need Ten dollars for. Like

21:32

they did the same thing Tom has

21:34

like with it for five. Was.

21:36

It. Okay, So five? okay was

21:38

it dark and then we just keep

21:40

pushing a backs was real kick. This

21:43

is how we got to seven or eight pm.

21:45

As. Far as yes, the cancer. Once. They

21:47

got to five o'clock. At

21:50

some point the investigator says now earlier

21:52

you had told me it was more

21:54

like seven or eight. And.

21:57

There. Is no part on any of

21:59

those. Keeps now maybe this was a

22:01

discussion that was off. Off. The

22:04

tape. Off. The Record: But.

22:06

There was no discussion that was being recorded where

22:08

he just he had said earlier that it was

22:10

seven or eight. Now he's leading him up to

22:13

seven or eight and exactly what you said at

22:15

the police. Ask him and was seven or eight

22:17

And Jesse's responses not seven is not A he

22:19

says get was seven or eight. Right

22:21

man. You pick. And not only that,

22:24

you could pick either one and you'd still

22:26

be considered guilty. There is no

22:28

right answer unless you're the police. So.

22:31

We have the times they the times

22:33

are confusing. The times are are a

22:36

problem for the police department. And.

22:38

There a problem for it for Jesse's confession.

22:41

The other part is when they start talking

22:43

about the boys being tied up. Now.

22:46

The Police wanna know. You

22:49

know how how are these boys tied up.

22:51

With. Jesse says they were tied with rope. And.

22:54

That he at no point does he ever

22:56

indicate that he understands that the hands were

22:58

tied to the ankles. Remember we said that

23:00

the right hand was tied to the right

23:03

ankle and so on. And

23:05

he says that their hands were tied

23:07

with rope. What color rope it was

23:09

Brown wrote pisa onset said that's what

23:11

killer robots and on this is a

23:13

problem says we know that there were

23:15

tied up the shoelaces. Yeah and they

23:17

weren't tied with their hands behind their

23:20

backs. So again, it's it's this. Weird.

23:22

Thing words lights out. Okay so

23:25

keep got an alley that Jesse

23:27

explains that does the they couldn't

23:29

have been tied hand to to

23:31

ankle because. They. They have

23:33

were trying to run. The one boy had taken

23:36

off running. So. The can't run

23:38

when you're tied hand ankle and he's the one

23:40

that we the boys. So.

23:43

At some point the police have to have

23:45

him stop the confession in. he's going to

23:47

have to go through it again because they

23:49

weren't obviously tied with rope. We gotta get

23:51

that right to on a fixed Some things.

23:54

So. There's some other problems.

23:57

okay so what one thing that does

23:59

just he had said was that Jason

24:01

and Damien had started screwing them and

24:03

stuff, meaning the victims. Okay,

24:06

well, here's

24:09

the problem with that. We know how

24:11

the boys were tied. If

24:13

they were going to be sodomizing

24:16

the boys, it's probably

24:18

close to impossible with how they were

24:20

tied without getting into

24:22

specifics. He

24:25

does talk about oral sex. He asked if

24:27

anybody was having oral sex and he does

24:29

say that Damien and Jason were having sticking

24:32

their things in their mouths of

24:34

two of the boys. He

24:38

said that they were holding them by the ears. Now

24:41

that is a problem

24:43

for Jesse because there

24:45

are injuries to some of the

24:48

boys, if not all of them, that

24:50

would indicate an act like that occurring.

24:52

Well, yeah, if you go

24:54

against science, yes. The

24:57

police want to know did Jason, well, first of

24:59

all, they want to know did Jesse rape

25:02

any of the boys? And he says, no, I didn't do any of

25:04

that. One thing

25:06

you'll notice in these confessions is that

25:08

Jesse is constantly, he will tell a portion

25:11

of the story and then he'll say, and

25:13

then that's when I left. And

25:15

then later they'll get him to tell more of a

25:17

story. And then he go, always refers back to the,

25:20

and then that's when I left. And

25:22

then he'll tell a little bit more. And then that's when I

25:24

left. He's constantly trying to get

25:27

himself out of that or this is the

25:29

end of the story. Now

25:31

they want to know if any

25:34

of the, here's some problems

25:36

that they have with Jesse's story. When

25:38

they're talking about the rape of the boys. Now

25:41

you will hear more than one

25:43

time, Jesse will say that Damien

25:45

raped Myers and both of them raped

25:47

branches. Okay. So

25:50

now he's starting to get the names of the victims wrong.

25:53

He's referring to, no,

25:55

he's referring to buyer. I don't

25:57

know if he's referring to more or buyers, but he says.

26:00

which is kind of a smashing of the two. And

26:03

then he talks about both of them

26:05

raping branches. But

26:10

here's a problem for Jesse. At some point he doesn't

26:15

realize this, but I

26:17

think he's trying to confirm their

26:19

story or put validity to his

26:21

story. He says at some

26:23

point that the more boy got

26:25

away and started to run and

26:28

that Jesse went and caught him and

26:30

brought him back. Well now

26:32

he's just implicated himself and he's

26:34

gone from having witnessed a rape

26:37

and murder to now being involved

26:39

in the actual killing.

26:41

Well one, he's not doing anything to stop

26:44

these attacks happening, but then when the one

26:46

boy goes to get away, if it

26:49

wasn't for him bringing him back, then

26:51

that boy would have lived. Exactly.

26:54

Based on Jesse's story. And not only

26:56

that, maybe whatever was going on would

26:58

have stopped because somebody got away. Anyway,

27:02

he's now implicated himself.

27:05

The police want to know if Jason

27:07

or Damien went down on any of

27:09

the boys. Now why

27:11

do they want to know this? Well we

27:13

went through some of the autopsy and we're

27:15

not going to go through it in its

27:17

entirety because it's just too much to take.

27:20

You can find it if you really want to read it, but

27:23

one thing that I will point out for you

27:25

is that there were abrasions, there

27:27

were damages to Stevie

27:30

Branch's penis. He had

27:32

had some bruising on it and they

27:34

wanted to know if somebody had gone down on

27:36

any of the boys because this was something they

27:38

would have expected. Something had to

27:41

have happened for him for those bruises

27:43

to occur. Yeah, I mean those bruises

27:45

would also be with any

27:47

sexual abuse. Okay,

27:50

so let's talk about something that he had said

27:52

early in the get-go. He said

27:54

I'd seen Damien hit

27:56

this one boy and bruise him up real bad.

28:00

Okay, well I do believe, I

28:03

do believe that this crime took a certain

28:05

amount of time to occur. The

28:07

way that the things that were done to

28:09

these boys and the way that they

28:11

were left in the woods, I believe

28:13

that it would have taken a certain amount of time for

28:15

this to occur. What I

28:18

find strange is here, and I'm obviously no

28:20

doctor, Captain, I'm just hanging out in the

28:22

garage with you. Oh, you're not a doctor.

28:24

But it's made that he bruised

28:26

him up real bad. You usually

28:28

don't punch somebody or hit somebody and they

28:30

bruise instantly. I don't know

28:32

Jesse's definition of bruise, but my definition

28:35

of bruise is usually something you see

28:37

well after the fact. Yeah,

28:39

but I don't know. I think if you

28:41

hit somebody, I mean, they're gonna

28:44

get splotchy, you know, red splotches

28:46

and stuff. The other thing,

28:48

they wanted to know who had a knife. Jesse, did

28:50

you have a knife? No. Nope. Who

28:52

had a knife? Did Damien have a knife? Nope. Jason

28:55

had a knife. Yes, he did. Several

28:58

knives. Not there, but

29:00

he has several knives. He has several knives,

29:03

but what knife did he have with them

29:05

at the crime scene? It's a pull-out lock

29:07

blade. So it's the kind of blade that

29:09

you, when you pull it out, that it'll

29:12

lock into place. Well, Jesse's asked, you

29:14

know, to describe the knife. And yes, he

29:16

says it's a lock blade. And he

29:19

says it's about six inches. It's

29:21

a blade that's about six inches. And

29:23

what kind of blade is it? Well,

29:25

the problem with this is, he

29:28

says it's a regular blade. Now

29:30

again, I don't know Jesse's definition of

29:33

bruising. I don't know his definition of

29:35

a regular blade. But when

29:37

I hear somebody say regular blade, I'm thinking of

29:39

a flat, single-edged lock

29:42

knife. The problem

29:44

with that is they firmly believe

29:47

that the injuries that

29:49

were suffered by Christopher Byers, when

29:54

they cut off the scrotum, they

29:56

believed that it was a serrated knife

30:00

that wound. It would have

30:02

removed that portion of the body. He

30:05

never describes a serrated knife. The

30:21

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30:23

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34:06

probe on. They want to know were any

34:08

of the boys dead when you

34:10

left? Remember he keeps saying that he left.

34:13

Now the first couple of times, no,

34:15

all the boys were still alive when

34:18

he left. Eventually they get him to

34:20

the point where he says that, yes,

34:22

the buyer's boy, they have three pictures. They

34:24

have a picture of each boy out on the

34:26

table. A lot of times he

34:28

doesn't refer to the boys by names. He'll just

34:31

point at one of the pictures and say, that

34:33

boy. Right. And he points at a picture and

34:35

he says, that boy, he was dead.

34:37

They killed him before I left. Well, the investigators

34:40

might have got tired of him saying the wrong

34:42

names. I said, I might have

34:44

just been like, you just need to point from

34:46

now on because you calling them Myers and stuff

34:48

doesn't work for what we

34:50

need you for. Well, and you know what's

34:53

interesting to me was at one point early

34:55

in the confession, he calls,

34:57

he refers to the buyer's boy

34:59

as more, which the

35:01

strange thing about that was the

35:03

police and the medical examiner early

35:06

in the investigation had confused those

35:08

two boys as well. I always

35:10

found that strange. It doesn't mean anything, but I

35:12

always found it odd that two of the boys

35:14

were confused by multiple people. Anyway,

35:17

he says that, yes, the buyer's boy was killed

35:19

before he had left and they asked how he

35:21

was killed. Well, he, they choked him. They

35:24

choked him with his hands and then they choked

35:26

him with a stick. A little stick. Yeah. And

35:28

then they threw him into the water and

35:31

he, I believe he says that

35:33

he saw him still twitching or his feet still

35:35

kicking. Yeah. One of them was kicking. Once he

35:38

was thrown into the water and he's referring to

35:40

the buyer's boy. There's a couple of problems

35:42

with it. Well, we don't really know who he's referring to.

35:44

Yeah, we do because he says that one right there and

35:46

Kitchill says you're talking about the buyer's boy. I know, but

35:48

what I'm saying is for, for most

35:50

of the, uh, interrogation, he's

35:53

switching them up. So, okay.

35:55

But for this instance, he's talking about, he's,

35:58

he's pointing to Christopher buyer. Now,

36:00

the reason why this is important

36:03

is because out of the

36:05

three victims, when you refer to the

36:07

autopsy report, there was a lot

36:09

of damage done to all three of these

36:12

boys. There was more damage done to Christopher

36:14

Byers than anybody else. But

36:16

one of the few body parts that

36:18

was not damaged on Christopher Byers was

36:20

his neck. There was no indication of

36:23

having been choked, strangled, or choked with

36:25

a stick on his neck. And

36:28

furthermore, he didn't drown. He was the

36:30

only boy out of the three that

36:32

didn't have water in his lungs. So

36:34

we would assume that he had died before he

36:37

put in the water. He was dead before he

36:39

was put in the water. But according to Jesse,

36:41

he's kicking. He was kicking. He

36:44

was still kicking. Exactly. He would have

36:46

been alive and he probably would have inhaled some water at

36:48

that point. According to

36:50

the autopsy report, Christopher Byers died from

36:52

multiple injuries and had bled out. Which

36:56

makes me really feel bad about my

36:58

gut instincts when I think

37:00

about what my gut was telling me when

37:02

I first heard the first

37:04

interview with him. Now some things

37:06

that don't work out well for Jesse, in

37:09

my opinion, is he's asked how did they

37:11

keep the boys quiet. And he says, well,

37:13

they held their hands over their mouths. And

37:16

then at some point he says that they

37:18

stuffed their shirts into their mouths. Well

37:21

this is interesting to me because it's not

37:23

something that I've heard anywhere else. And

37:26

it wasn't a question that they were

37:28

specifically asking him, did you put a

37:30

shirt in their mouth? There

37:33

were other points in this confession where

37:35

he's being led, clearly being led. But

37:38

once in a while he's offering up

37:40

information without having been led to this

37:42

answer. And this is one of the- Do we have any

37:44

proof that they had shirts on their, it

37:47

could be something he saw in a movie. No,

37:49

you're exactly right. But what I'm getting at is

37:52

the people that point out over and over again

37:54

that the West Memphis Three are innocent, they will

37:56

constantly say that, oh, he was being led on

37:58

every single question. He was. No, some

38:00

of the stuff he was coming up with on his

38:02

own whether he had seen it or whether he was

38:04

making it up at That point now

38:07

the other problem that I have with this confession

38:09

that doesn't look good for Jesse is

38:11

that he does Admit that only one of

38:13

the boys Had

38:16

their penis removed. Yeah that

38:18

was castrate This is also a month

38:20

afterwards and how many rumors are happening

38:22

in that town The reason why I

38:24

have a problem with that is as

38:26

we reported in in our first episode

38:30

What was reported in the newspaper

38:32

the day after the boys were

38:34

found doesn't matter what's reported I

38:36

understand but what I'm saying is

38:38

the the what's reported in that

38:40

newspaper is what starts off everybody's

38:42

general Understanding of what the police

38:44

found and that understanding is that

38:47

all three boys were sexually mutilated

38:49

That's what was stated in the newspaper. That doesn't

38:51

mean that they didn't hear other rumors a

38:54

month later But what I'm getting at is

38:56

that's one of the things that you need

38:59

to look at That's one of the things

39:01

that the police were holding close to themselves

39:03

They they were they were ashamed that that

39:05

information had gotten out But they knew that

39:08

that when they find the

39:10

right person the right person would know that

39:12

only one of them Was I

39:14

mean, there's yeah one's castrate, but what

39:16

there is abuse to that one of

39:18

the kids genitals But

39:21

keep in mind four hours earlier

39:23

Jesse, Miss Kelly knew nothing about

39:25

this crime so for him

39:27

to come up with with something like this and

39:31

He spot-on he goes

39:33

straight from knowing nothing to knowing something

39:35

that maybe you know He doesn't mean

39:37

he doesn't know anything. He just answered

39:39

that he didn't know any he didn't

39:41

know anything at the time That

39:44

doesn't mean he doesn't know something. I understand

39:46

the answer that I get that what I'm

39:48

getting at Is that this is a problem

39:50

for Jesse, Miss Kelly wouldn't you agree that

39:53

he knows he knows he's reporting a

39:55

fact that is He's

39:58

Reporting something to the police? that is fact. Did.

40:00

The general public may not have known as

40:02

fact. After. This confessed. is

40:05

there anything else you want to touch on

40:07

and the a person can now? Okay so

40:09

after the confession, The. Other

40:11

boys are promptly arrested.

40:15

And. Now charges are being filed against

40:17

all three of them. And

40:19

we're not going to go through all the details

40:21

of the arrest and how this all went down,

40:24

but you can imagine what's going on and and

40:26

most of you out there have seen the Paradise

40:28

Lost movies or the West of Memphis movies as

40:30

and This doesn't go down like you know, Normal

40:33

situations, they're not giving people the

40:35

right call home right away. Ah,

40:38

Jason Baldwin's parents. I'm unaware that for

40:40

a while. Ah, So it's

40:42

kind of gone down a little funny. They.

40:45

Were arrested at night and according

40:47

to Arkansas law. They're. Not

40:49

really supposed to issue a warrant

40:51

for rest for a nighttime. Process.

40:55

And. That has to that has to

40:57

have special circumstances and know sip circumstances

41:00

would be that you you would think

41:02

that the the perpetrators would flee that

41:04

you would think that they would try

41:07

to destroy evidence. Or. That they

41:09

could conspire together to to

41:11

form a story or. You.

41:14

Know create a story of innocence and

41:16

the on things as gives them enough

41:18

reason to arrest them at night. Know

41:20

in our reason why is this was

41:22

a month later? If you're worried about

41:24

evidence being destroyed, well, it's been a

41:27

month. If you're worried about them coming

41:29

up with the Gaza rather is yeah

41:31

within that last month. If you're Damien

41:33

Echols in your Jason Baldwin, your buddy

41:35

that was with you. Ah he's

41:37

not been put into question the on think

41:40

it would get around town on you know

41:42

they they got ah Jessie Misskelley in there

41:44

and the question in i'm. And.

41:46

if you if you heard that and and

41:48

you are involved in this one of the

41:50

give you some time to start gonna read

41:53

a stuff one of the boys was a

41:55

minor ah the other the other eighteen year

41:57

old the adult never had a driver's license

41:59

right The dates involved when it was 16. Yeah.

42:02

Jesse and Miss Kelly was 17. Right, but there's not

42:04

probable cause to believe that the two of them have

42:06

the ability to flee. And

42:09

furthermore, any general

42:12

intelligence would tell you that they've already

42:14

had the opportunity to destroy evidence and

42:16

they've already had the opportunity to conspire

42:18

to come up with a good story.

42:21

Well, I get that. But also, if

42:24

these boys were involved, they

42:26

brutally murdered three kids. So

42:29

the public's at risk. I'm not saying that

42:31

it shouldn't have happened. I'm just saying

42:33

that it's not normal. It's abnormal for

42:36

them to issue a warrant for arrest

42:38

for an evening for the

42:40

nighttime. I agree with that. I'm just saying that

42:42

if I'm the cops and I

42:45

find out through a confession or whatever that somebody

42:47

murdered kids, I'm going to go pick them up

42:49

as quick as I can. Yeah. You

42:52

have to get a judge out of bed or

42:54

away from dinner that night to come in and

42:56

issue the warrant and then you go

42:58

and you apprehend the

43:00

one child and then the

43:02

man. The

43:05

other thing here is one thing

43:07

we should point out that goes

43:09

against this, this is bad for the

43:11

police. They did

43:13

spend about 12 hours that day with

43:15

Jesse, Ms. Kelly. Only

43:18

41 minutes of that time ended up on

43:20

tape or being recorded. Yeah, that's not good.

43:22

That's not good for the police. The

43:25

bad thing for the people that believe that the

43:27

West Memphis 3 are innocent would be

43:30

a lot of people point out, well, they

43:32

interrogated him for 12 hours. Well,

43:34

that's not really the case. They picked him up

43:36

at 10 a.m. and by 2 p.m., he was

43:39

spitting out a confession. I

43:42

don't really love the tactics of showing

43:44

the picture of the dead boy. Maybe

43:46

that's general procedure. I don't know. But

43:48

the strange voice of the boy saying, I'm

43:50

the only one that knows what happened seems

43:54

... questionable things. Seems odd to me.

43:57

They're definitely fishing. the

44:00

boys they've got them arrested the West

44:02

Memphis three Damien Eccles Jason Baldwin Jesse

44:04

Miss Kelly now they've got to try

44:06

these guys right so it's decided

44:08

that they're all going to be tried as

44:10

adults and they're going to have two separate

44:12

trials which is complete bullshit for Jason Baldwin

44:15

being 16 yeah yeah I've

44:17

always thought actually that probably Jesse

44:19

and Jason could have been charged

44:22

as as youths yeah well

44:24

Jesse definitely just mentally yes

44:26

I mean anybody that would have taken some

44:29

time or if they would have evaluated him

44:31

further I mean that would be the

44:33

logical thing to do what they decide to do they're

44:35

going to try Jesse Miss

44:37

Kelly by himself because

44:39

there's a certain law and I don't

44:41

know which it is but unless he's

44:43

willing to implicate the other two that

44:45

he's confessing about then he has to

44:47

be tried separately so first

44:50

of all they have Jesse's trial

44:52

okay now and this is covered

44:54

in Paradise Lost One yeah they

44:56

do they spend a lot of

44:59

time covering his case and

45:01

and you can see him it's strange you

45:03

know you see him he doesn't ever really

45:05

look at the jury he doesn't look at

45:07

the well his lawyers tell him to keep

45:09

his head down so he just looks down

45:11

at the ground the whole time and they

45:14

later on they wanted to get a public

45:16

opinion on his his you know what

45:18

they thought of how he carried himself in court

45:20

you know because going into this he was looked

45:22

at as kind of a local badass as somebody

45:24

as a as a boy that liked to get

45:26

him fights because he wants to be a wrestler

45:28

yeah he was kind of a tough kid and

45:31

a lot of people were shocked when he showed

45:33

up to court and he's like you said he's

45:35

only like five foot tall and they see this

45:37

very small kind of meek looking person five

45:39

one or something like that yeah and

45:41

and and he gets there and he

45:44

spends the entire trial staring at his

45:46

shoes he doesn't

45:48

look up at anybody as you said the lawyer

45:50

told him to do that public opinion was was

45:52

kind of uh on the fence about that they

45:55

while some of the people thought that it

45:57

made it look like he was scared and

45:59

intimidated which made him

46:01

look almost innocent. Other

46:04

people thought that it made him

46:06

look disinterested or you

46:08

know kind of kind of disassociated with

46:11

what was going on. I believe Jesse

46:13

was scared though. I

46:15

think he definitely was scared 100%. I mean he's

46:17

locked away he just wants to go home to

46:19

be with his family. There's a lot

46:22

of talk about how like he had a lot of issues

46:25

separation anxiety from his mother when he was

46:27

younger. So can you imagine what's going

46:29

through his head now he's in jail with with no

46:31

family. Yeah and there's some

46:33

problems going on too outside of the

46:36

court. His defense attorney,

46:38

Stedham, is is

46:40

having problems with Jesse when he's trying

46:42

to put together the case. Why? Because

46:44

Jesse is when

46:47

his when Jesse's father is around

46:49

Jesse's innocent. He pleads that he's

46:51

innocent. When his

46:53

father leaves he's telling his attorney

46:55

that he's guilty and he continues

46:57

to confess to his attorney. What

47:01

ends up occurring we're gonna make this shorter

47:03

than it than it should be but what

47:05

ends up occurring is that the attorney figures

47:07

out that Jesse

47:09

doesn't understand that the defense attorney works for

47:12

Jesse. Right that he's trying to help him

47:14

out. Exactly. He figures out that Jesse thinks

47:16

that the attorney's just another detective that he's

47:18

a cop and so he's treating him. In

47:20

all fairness he kind of looks like a

47:23

cop. I mean he had the beard and

47:25

the... Exactly

47:27

he looked he looks similar to most of

47:29

the detectives that Jesse probably spoke with. At

47:31

some point and I think you had told

47:33

me that it was through Jesse's father that

47:35

Jesse's father pointed out to to Junior that

47:38

this guy works for you that he's on

47:40

your side we're all on your side here

47:42

and you need to tell the truth. Yeah

47:45

well I think this well there was a

47:47

bunch of stuff going back and forth but

47:49

even his mom you know was trying to

47:51

tell him like look these people are here

47:53

to help you. Jesse

47:56

ends up being convicted And

47:58

he's convicted And he's sentenced.... To life

48:00

in prison plus forty years. And.

48:04

So after you dad that asleep in

48:06

prison for years. He sets in

48:08

and then I figured out forty years from

48:10

now, but that the reason for that has

48:12

to be that's that's my cellmate. Do you

48:15

know the reason for that sentence? Know

48:17

so he received one, he received

48:20

the life off the one murder

48:22

and then. Twenty for each

48:24

of, yeah, because one of the boys

48:26

he said he caught and brought back

48:28

in that was Michael Moore. So he

48:31

received oh, a life sentence for the

48:33

death of Michael Moore. Plus Twenty years

48:35

for Stevie Branch, Plus Twenty years for

48:37

Christopher Buyers. Out January

48:39

of Nineteen Ninety Four. There.

48:42

Is a nice that is presented

48:44

to the. Police. Person

48:48

it, It's mailed to the

48:50

police. I. Believe the expects to

48:52

them. So. What

48:54

knife as as this is the nice that

48:57

John Mark Buyers gave to some of the

48:59

plaza yours has passed for. Nice. Yeah there's

49:01

a loss and knives in this case. And

49:03

actually I think that when we went through

49:06

the evidence that was submitted throughout the time

49:08

of this investigation was like what eighteen or

49:10

nineteen knives were Sit submitted his evidence at

49:12

some point or looked at sent to the

49:15

crime lab for analysis and one of those

49:17

knives was a knife that was given to

49:19

the people that were recording and videotaping the

49:21

one of the Paradise lost. Our one cameraman.

49:24

Yes! and it was around Christmas time in

49:26

Jean Marc buyers and given had gifted demo.

49:28

nice. And at some point the

49:31

person that receive than I thought that it

49:33

looked to have been used to maybe there

49:35

was something on it in this item could

49:37

be blood? Well they decide the good people

49:40

on H B O decided they should turn

49:42

the knife into the police departments. The police

49:44

department that in turn gives it to the

49:46

crime labs and they are able to determine.

49:50

This. is quite strange they're able to

49:52

determine that the blood there is

49:54

blood on the nice and that

49:56

the blood matches that of christopher

49:58

buyers This is a problem

50:00

because it's found in the possession of John Mark Biers

50:04

They would go on to ask John Mark Biers

50:06

about this knife and how he had received it

50:08

and what he had done with the knife And

50:10

would there be any reason why well it matches,

50:12

but it doesn't match like exactly, right? Right,

50:18

but for the purpose of their questioning it

50:20

matches Christopher Biers So

50:23

they're going to interrogate and in

50:25

every view John Mark Biers about the knife They

50:28

want to know why that the boy's blood would

50:30

be on the knife. He doesn't know

50:32

he doesn't know that there's no reason why There

50:34

should be any blood at all. They don't bluntly

50:36

ask him about Christopher Biers He

50:39

goes on to say that maybe he was using it to

50:41

cut deer meat or maybe he'd used it to cut himself

50:44

Well using it to cut himself on

50:46

accident while he was cutting the deer meat

50:49

might have saved him a bit Because they

50:51

would later find out and later determined that

50:53

the blood that was on that knife also

50:55

matched his Now while

50:58

this is curious because they're

51:00

not they're not father and son Biologically,

51:04

we know Exactly reported that

51:06

way exactly but but they had started

51:08

seeing her when she's pregnant So and

51:11

they have so they end up having

51:13

similar similar blood now We should

51:15

be we should point out here

51:17

that you're exactly right captain that all that

51:19

they did is what what is referred to

51:21

as an Alpha test on that which which

51:23

really breaks it down They didn't have much

51:26

DNA testing at the time and all that

51:28

does is break it down and say that

51:30

you can eliminate This person or that person

51:32

you can't eliminate These

51:34

other people and so I'm

51:36

sure that it probably matches more than just John

51:39

Mark and Christopher Biers But this

51:41

was something that they were looking into during

51:45

the course of putting together the

51:47

case against Damien and Jason

51:51

and this is interesting too because there was another

51:53

knife that was found before that and That

51:56

was the knife that was found in the

51:58

water in the pond or lake behind Jason

52:01

Baldwin's trailer. Now

52:03

this was not a lock knife was it captain?

52:06

No, it's called a survival knife.

52:08

Yeah. Though the blade doesn't bend, it

52:10

just handles and blade. Yeah, it

52:12

looks like Rambo's knife, right? Yeah. Like a,

52:14

and this, this would be like a seven

52:16

or eight inch blade. This is a big

52:18

blade. The problem with a

52:21

few of these things too is one,

52:23

one with the six inch blade that

52:25

is discussed in Jesse and Miss Kelly's

52:27

confession and this big giant Rambo knife

52:29

that's found in the water behind Jason

52:31

Baldwin's trailer. These are giant knives.

52:33

These are big knives. Okay. The

52:36

injuries that were miniature swords, the

52:38

injuries that were sustained by these

52:40

boys, some of the, some of

52:42

what could be looked at as

52:44

potential stab wounds. None

52:46

of them, none of them penetrated the boys

52:48

more than two inches. So

52:50

that's a bit of an issue. You've got

52:53

all these big giant knives that we're testing. Now, it's

52:55

not to say that you couldn't just pick

52:57

at somebody or

52:59

lightly go at it, but it's

53:01

improbable in my mind. Before

53:03

we can get to the trial of Damien and

53:05

Jason, there is another confession

53:08

by Jesse. After he's convicted and

53:10

he's driven by the deputies to

53:12

the prison, he will offer another

53:14

confession to these deputies. I think

53:16

at this point he just likes

53:19

the attention. The deputies would go on to

53:21

report what he says to them and I'm

53:23

not going to go through the whole confession,

53:26

but there are some changes to his story.

53:28

He says that he met up with Damien

53:30

and Jason after he got off work and

53:34

that things went down a little bit different, that

53:36

they were hanging out in the woods, in the

53:38

water. They had seen the boys. Damien called the

53:40

boys over and Jesse and

53:42

Jason were hiding and after Damien grabbed

53:44

one of the boys, the boys started

53:47

attacking Damien and that's when Jesse and

53:49

Jason started beating the boys with sticks.

53:52

Most of his confession after that would be

53:54

about the same. He would tell the deputies,

53:56

this again though we got to point out

53:58

is according to the deputies He

54:01

would tell the deputies that he lied to

54:04

the police in his original confession about the

54:06

times Because he wanted to see

54:08

if he could trick the police and he also

54:10

lied about the rope and he knew that it

54:12

was Shoelaces that had tied the

54:14

ball. This was recorded. I mean

54:17

So we can go back and listen

54:19

to it This this confession was

54:22

given on the ride from the courthouse

54:24

to the prison, right? But then there

54:26

was another confession that they recorded when

54:28

they were trying to make the deal

54:31

Yes, that that would be a

54:33

third confession that was given to

54:35

the prosecuting attorneys as well as

54:37

his defense attorney Jesse

54:39

would let her later state that he

54:41

only gave this confession to the deputies

54:44

that were driving him to prison because

54:46

That they promised him that they would

54:48

drive his girlfriend to see him in

54:50

prison if he told them what really

54:52

had happened And they had also told

54:54

him that if he didn't if

54:56

he didn't confess and he didn't testify against

54:59

Those other boys that what's going

55:02

to happen is while he's locked away in prison

55:04

that Damien and Jason was going to get to

55:06

his girlfriend so

55:08

regardless he offers up this confession to

55:10

the deputies and We

55:13

don't know if it actually happened or if the deputies made

55:15

it up But as the captain had

55:17

pointed out there was another confession that was given

55:19

to The prosecutors as

55:21

well as the defense attorney and during

55:23

that confession There is one thing that

55:25

comes to light that we haven't heard

55:27

so far is that he explains that

55:29

he had been drinking that day Yeah,

55:31

and he was drinking whiskey a couple

55:33

things come up. What is he's

55:36

drinking whiskey boys are drinking beer

55:38

and That he

55:40

also mentions now instead of just running

55:42

and catching the kid that he actually

55:46

Actually takes part in attacking the kid Yeah He's

55:48

beat he's helping to beat up some of the

55:50

boys and he's even holding some of the boys

55:52

while they're being hit by the by Damien

55:55

and Jason and he would

55:57

also say that back to the whiskey though. He He

56:00

would tell them that he was

56:02

drinking Evan Williams, I believe was the name

56:04

of the brand of whiskey. Now,

56:07

I'm just going to stop you right

56:09

here because if you can find this

56:12

recording, this is very hard to listen to.

56:14

Back to the whiskey that Jesse was

56:17

drinking. He says he was drinking that day.

56:19

He says the brand of whiskey was Evan

56:21

Williams. And now Vicki,

56:23

remember Vicki Hutchinson, she would go on

56:25

to say that she had gave that

56:27

bottle to Jesse because he had helped

56:29

her with something to pay him back.

56:32

And he says that after he left

56:34

the scene of the crime, that he

56:37

was walking home and that he had

56:39

thrown the bottle at an

56:41

overpass or near an overpass and had

56:43

broken this on the side of the

56:46

overpass there. And

56:49

Stetum, his defense attorney, refused

56:51

to believe that Jesse was

56:53

guilty. And the

56:55

prosecutors and the investigators were trying to

56:57

convince the defense attorney that he was

57:00

in fact guilty. And so

57:02

what they did was they went with Stetum to

57:05

go find this broken bottle. And

57:07

they were able to recover at that

57:10

very overpass that Jesse had mentioned. They

57:12

were able to recover the neck of

57:14

an Evan Williams whiskey bottle. That

57:17

is weird. The big problem with that

57:19

is remember we had said earlier that

57:22

that interstate is one of the most

57:24

traveled freeways in the United States and

57:26

they find this bottleneck

57:30

about a year after

57:32

the crime had taken place, a year after the

57:34

time that he said he had thrown it. Now,

57:37

Evan Williams is not a terribly uncommon bottle

57:39

of whiskey. I mean, it's well known and

57:42

it's probably better known in that area.

57:44

You should try to drink more whiskey on the

57:46

show. That

57:48

would be fun. We'd have a lot of fun

57:50

on those episodes. Well, we've got to talk about

57:52

the second trial. And the big thing that comes

57:55

out in the second trial just beforehand, I believe

57:57

the day before. Jesse

58:00

says I'm not going to testify against

58:03

Damien and Jason right now the

58:05

there we got to be clear

58:07

here because Jesse was offered a deal He

58:10

was going to be offered a reduced sentence of

58:12

40 years, right? So they're gonna get away a

58:15

life in prison plus 40 years

58:18

just down to 40 years So

58:20

and he was only and if you

58:23

look at Paradise Lost the prosecution states

58:25

to the family if

58:27

he doesn't testify We don't have

58:29

a case That's what they say And

58:32

a lot of people would point out look well Let's

58:34

think real quick because I believe Jesse would have been

58:36

18 by this time So he would have

58:39

been 58 if after he served 40 years

58:41

He would probably get out and be alive or he

58:43

could you know after good

58:46

behavior or whatever might get even more reduced

58:48

after that Point but regardless he doesn't take

58:50

the deal a lot of people would point

58:52

out that this points towards their innocence And

58:55

I would point out that no, this is

58:57

probably just a tactic of legality

59:00

That his his defense attorney is going to

59:02

tell that him this is what I would

59:04

tell my client look for you

59:07

to be guilty Oh, if

59:09

if they have nothing on Damien

59:11

or Jason other than your confession

59:13

Then they can't convict those two

59:15

guys and as soon as those

59:17

two guys get off then guess what? We're

59:20

putting into the appeal process your case And

59:22

if you go and testify against them it's

59:25

going to make it much harder for us

59:27

to appeal your case later, right? So

59:29

he's not really he's not really

59:32

To me it doesn't present innocence

59:34

by not testifying against this guy But I

59:37

will go further to say that it also

59:39

does not present that he's guilty either, right?

59:42

Let's talk about the evidence that they

59:44

do have right captain Let's we don't

59:46

we no longer have this confession and

59:48

this is what they base the whole

59:50

arrest off of When

59:52

they went and picked up Damien and Jason,

59:55

so we have no confession now. So

59:57

what evidence do we have? Well, let's point at Damien

59:59

first Okay, so there are

1:00:02

some people that say that

1:00:04

they had heard or overheard him saying

1:00:06

that he was involved in the case.

1:00:09

He would come out many many years later and

1:00:11

kind of explain this and one

1:00:13

thing I want to point out I think he's kind

1:00:16

of spot-on with his explanation of this and

1:00:18

I'll tell you a while afterwards but the

1:00:20

general story is is that he was at

1:00:23

a softball game. He was seen at a

1:00:25

softball game and he had made reference that

1:00:27

he had either knew what had happened to

1:00:29

the boys or he had been involved in

1:00:31

killing the boys. Right. And

1:00:33

the reason that he says that this came

1:00:36

about was when he went to the softball

1:00:38

game people started kind of pointing at him

1:00:40

and looking at him and he could hear

1:00:42

them talking about oh there he is. That's

1:00:44

the guy that that's the weirdo that killed

1:00:46

those kids. That's the he's a Satanist and

1:00:48

he's gotten a call and he and his

1:00:51

a call his call killed those boys. Right,

1:00:53

but Jason Baldwin kind of talks about this

1:00:55

that you know even though that

1:00:57

Damien was different and most people saw him

1:00:59

as different that it was kind of became

1:01:02

a joke like Damien liked to

1:01:04

pack his lunch so which

1:01:07

is not a weird thing he just didn't

1:01:09

like school lunch so then all the boys

1:01:11

or girls would say oh what you got

1:01:13

in your lunch a cat and

1:01:16

then Damien would just go yeah you just go

1:01:18

along with it but it wasn't like he was

1:01:20

being mean or rude or they were even being

1:01:22

that rude it was just kind of a joke

1:01:24

like this guy's just a little different but we

1:01:26

seem to like him. Well he liked being strange

1:01:28

and he liked poking fun at people and

1:01:31

if you thought one thing of him he was happy

1:01:33

to let you think that and

1:01:35

why why do I believe his explanation this

1:01:37

goes back to that Polaroid picture that was

1:01:39

taken of him that police were going around

1:01:41

and they were showing this to people and

1:01:44

asking if they knew if he was in

1:01:46

a cult or if he was a Satanist

1:01:48

or if he was involved in the murder

1:01:50

of Right you showed that enough people now

1:01:52

you're like a celebrity in your small little

1:01:55

town. People

1:02:00

know nothing about this crime. And at some

1:02:02

point they start talking amongst themselves, well, he

1:02:04

must be involved because the police showed me

1:02:06

a picture and said his name. So

1:02:09

I absolutely believe that the people, the softball

1:02:11

game said that about him. And I bet

1:02:13

you he retaliated with something that he probably

1:02:15

shouldn't have said. They gave

1:02:17

him just enough rope and he hung himself. Well,

1:02:21

so what other evidence do we

1:02:23

have regarding Damien? Well, there was

1:02:25

the knife that was found in

1:02:27

the Lakeshore trailer park pond

1:02:30

or lake. Yeah, but that knife was thrown

1:02:33

there a year before the murders

1:02:35

even took place. That's what

1:02:37

they would end up figuring out, but they would still

1:02:39

present this as potential evidence in the case. Now,

1:02:42

again, I don't believe, there's no

1:02:45

reason to believe that that knife was

1:02:47

involved in this case. And

1:02:49

furthermore, according to Jesse, Ms.

1:02:51

Kelly's, every single one of his confessions, the

1:02:53

knife was Jason's. It belonged to Jason. Jason

1:02:56

brought the knife. Jason was the one that

1:02:58

used the knife most of the time during

1:03:00

the murders. However, nobody at

1:03:02

no point had ever said that that

1:03:05

knife that Jesse described did not match

1:03:07

the one that was found in the

1:03:09

water. Now, what

1:03:11

did it match? It matched a knife. It

1:03:14

matched Rambo's knife. And it also matched

1:03:16

a knife that several people had pointed

1:03:18

out that Damien was known to have

1:03:21

possessed or carried at one point. Based

1:03:24

on Jesse's confession, Damien didn't

1:03:26

use a knife. But again, it doesn't matter if

1:03:28

I have a Rambo knife or not, because that's

1:03:30

not the knife that was used in the confession.

1:03:32

And it was probably not the knife that was

1:03:34

used in the crime at all. They

1:03:37

do a lot of hearsay stuff. I mean, when they

1:03:39

have him read these quotes from

1:03:41

one of his journals or one of his

1:03:43

folders, and he's quoting,

1:03:45

like he's writing down quotes from

1:03:47

William Shakespeare and Metallica. And

1:03:50

what's so wrong about that? Like

1:03:52

what? That's not evidence of anything. I

1:03:54

wrote down plenty of Metallica quotes when

1:03:56

I was in high school. so

1:04:00

is their lyrics. But anyways, the

1:04:02

point is that, you

1:04:04

know, that's something that, you know,

1:04:07

Damien seems like a guy that's constantly

1:04:09

searching for knowledge. So I think

1:04:12

it started way back then, even though he was

1:04:14

a shitty student. But they

1:04:16

use that against him in this trial,

1:04:18

but it's not evidence. It's just speculation

1:04:21

or hearsay. There was

1:04:23

eyewitness testimony against Damien.

1:04:26

Somebody had seen Damien near the scene

1:04:28

of the crime on May 5th. Now

1:04:30

who was that? That was his girlfriend. That

1:04:33

was her aunt that had seen him. The

1:04:36

problem with this eyewitness testimony was

1:04:38

that she never says that she

1:04:40

sees Damien with Jason or with

1:04:42

Jesse. She sees

1:04:44

Damien with her niece, Domini.

1:04:48

Well, that's a little strange

1:04:50

because at no point in Jesse, Miss

1:04:52

Kelly's confession is Domini ever present. So

1:04:55

is this evidence or is this just something that

1:04:57

might point to him being innocent,

1:05:00

of mistaken identity? I believe that

1:05:02

the aunt would be able to

1:05:04

easily identify the two kids, you

1:05:07

know, Domini and

1:05:10

Damien. But did she

1:05:12

just get the wrong day? You know, did

1:05:14

she? Yeah, it could have been any day. What

1:05:18

was Damien's alibi

1:05:21

for that night? There

1:05:24

was a bunch of different versions, but I think the

1:05:26

one that they settle on is that

1:05:28

he was talking to some girls on the phone. Yeah,

1:05:31

there's a few things to back up

1:05:34

his alibi for that evening. He was

1:05:36

with Jason and they had gone to

1:05:38

Jason's uncle's house to cut the grass.

1:05:40

Yeah. Well, this is confirmed by Jason.

1:05:43

It's also confirmed by Jason's uncle. Now,

1:05:46

this would have taken place well before the

1:05:48

boys had disappeared, though, because Damien had said

1:05:50

that at some point, either his father or

1:05:52

his mother had come and picked them up

1:05:54

and taken him home. On the

1:05:57

way home, they stopped and they completed several

1:05:59

errands before... they got home. He says

1:06:01

that he believes that he was picked up

1:06:03

probably about 5.30 from Jason's uncle's

1:06:06

house. Now, one

1:06:08

thing that kind of goes along with his

1:06:10

story though is remember they're running errands. Well,

1:06:12

one of the errands is Damien

1:06:15

had been to several mental hospitals and

1:06:18

he was being treated for depression. So

1:06:20

he had a prescription that needed to be picked up. Now,

1:06:25

we can't say with certainty that Damien was

1:06:28

the person that picked up that prescription, however,

1:06:30

the pharmacy did provide proof

1:06:32

that that prescription was picked

1:06:35

up that evening. That's close

1:06:37

enough. And Damien had said

1:06:39

that they had stopped on the way home to pick

1:06:42

up this prescription. This was one of the errands that

1:06:44

they were running and this also goes with

1:06:48

his mother's story and his father's

1:06:50

story as well. Yeah, it

1:06:52

also kind of goes with Jason's story

1:06:54

as well too. Yep, and you're exactly

1:06:57

right. Once Damien got home, he said

1:06:59

he spent the evening at home on

1:07:01

the phone with two girls from Memphis,

1:07:04

Tennessee. Playa, playa. Well, and the girls

1:07:06

from Memphis, Tennessee would say, yes, we

1:07:08

spoke to Damien that evening. What's

1:07:11

another thing against Damien? Well, there were some

1:07:13

fibers that were found at the crime scene.

1:07:15

There was a red fiber and there was

1:07:18

a green fiber. Now, police would

1:07:20

be able to, they remember they searched

1:07:22

all of the suspect's homes and trailers.

1:07:25

And during the search, they were able

1:07:27

to come up with fiber that matched

1:07:29

the green fiber that was found at

1:07:31

the crime scene. They found this fiber

1:07:33

in Damien's trailer. Right. However, there is

1:07:35

a side note there. It

1:07:38

was, I don't know what the fiber

1:07:40

was from. They don't specifically list what

1:07:42

the fiber was from. However, it was

1:07:45

mentioned that this would not be an

1:07:47

article of clothing that would have been

1:07:49

worn by Damien. That this had

1:07:51

come from some kind of green shirt. What

1:07:54

I'm getting at is it may not have been a man's

1:07:56

shirt. It may not have been a shirt that would have

1:07:58

fit him at the time. time he

1:08:00

was waiting on a child to be born, maybe it

1:08:02

was a piece of child's clothing. So

1:08:05

for whatever reason, they don't specifically say

1:08:08

where that fiber came from. Now they

1:08:10

do say the fiber matched, however, the

1:08:13

defense would point out that you

1:08:15

could walk into any Walmart and

1:08:17

find a green fiber that would

1:08:19

match that fiber that was found.

1:08:21

Yeah, or possible you could walk into

1:08:23

any of the victim's homes and probably find

1:08:25

a fiber that would match that. Well,

1:08:28

that leads us to the red fiber, right? So

1:08:31

there was a red fiber that was found and

1:08:33

this, when they searched

1:08:35

Jason Baldwin's trailer, they

1:08:37

found a red fiber that matched that fiber.

1:08:40

Again, this was from an article of

1:08:43

clothing that would probably not have been

1:08:45

worn by Jason Baldwin. Do you

1:08:47

know what they found that red fiber from? It

1:08:50

was a red woman's bathrobe, it was

1:08:52

his mother's bathrobe. So unless he wore

1:08:55

his mom's bathrobe down to- Oh, I mean,

1:08:57

it could transfer. Right,

1:09:00

right. These things can transfer. You're

1:09:02

exactly right, Captain. However, I mean,

1:09:04

it's not super likely.

1:09:06

And again, this red fiber was,

1:09:08

again, another fiber that you could

1:09:10

find anything in Walmart or- Yeah,

1:09:13

or go to the three victim's homes and try to find that same

1:09:15

fiber. See, I'd have

1:09:17

more weight on that if they could tell me,

1:09:19

oh yeah, we went to the victim's houses and

1:09:22

we couldn't find a match to this. The

1:09:25

thing about Jason Baldwin is other

1:09:27

than Jesse, Ms. Kelly's confession

1:09:30

and that red fiber, they

1:09:33

had nothing linking Jason Baldwin to this crime.

1:09:36

Right, and that's why they tried them together.

1:09:38

They tried them together and the thing is-

1:09:40

Guilt by association. If you would have tried

1:09:43

Jason Baldwin by himself without that confession, I

1:09:45

don't know how you would get a guilty

1:09:47

verdict. I don't know how you'd get a

1:09:50

guilty verdict. No. I

1:09:52

don't know how they got a guilty verdict

1:09:54

anyways other than what came out

1:09:56

later. Do you want to talk about that? Of

1:09:58

course, but real quick. They are

1:10:00

both convicted. They are both found

1:10:03

guilty and Damien Eccles receives the

1:10:05

death penalty and Jason Baldwin receives

1:10:08

life imprisonment. After the trial,

1:10:10

the movies start to come out. We have

1:10:12

documentaries coming out. We talked about the Paradise

1:10:14

Lost movies. We talked about the West

1:10:17

of Memphis documentary. There's these books

1:10:19

coming out. Well, but after the

1:10:21

Paradise Lost documentaries come out. It

1:10:24

kind of it goes from a witch hunt to

1:10:26

hey, maybe these guys are

1:10:29

not guilty of this crime and a

1:10:31

bunch of celebrities start getting involved. People

1:10:33

like Johnny Depp, Eddie Vedder,

1:10:36

the Dixie Chicks and they start raising

1:10:38

money for their defense. Now

1:10:40

it's reported and here's what I

1:10:42

hate about this report. Ten to

1:10:44

twenty million. That's a

1:10:46

big difference to me. So either way, it

1:10:48

was a lot of money that was raised.

1:10:50

Am I crazy or does Eddie Vedder keep

1:10:52

popping up in all of our like every

1:10:54

other case we cover, he's he's. Eventually, Eddie

1:10:57

will be on our show. I mean, he's

1:10:59

in the Brian Shaper case and now he's

1:11:01

in this one. Yeah. He's maybe just a

1:11:03

true crime fan. Eddie, thanks for

1:11:05

listening. Thanks for listening. Yeah, I believe

1:11:07

Marilyn Manson was involved too. And you

1:11:09

also had who was the black flag?

1:11:12

I don't know if Henry

1:11:14

Rollins. I don't know if

1:11:16

Marilyn Manson was involved. I think there was

1:11:18

some pictures and stuff taken afterwards once they

1:11:21

got out and then people started saying how

1:11:23

much he was involved. I don't know how

1:11:25

much he was involved. Well, Damien Eccles said

1:11:27

that he was that Manson was a supporter

1:11:30

financially as well as emotionally and whatever. I

1:11:32

didn't hear that. But but the reason being

1:11:34

was that, you know, most people that he

1:11:36

said that I agree with him. Well, in

1:11:39

the public eye, Marilyn Manson is not a

1:11:41

welcomed figure amongst most

1:11:44

people, especially the religious groups. Yeah, I

1:11:46

like him though. And welcome in the garage.

1:11:48

Yeah. But the thing is, Damien Eccles is

1:11:50

trying to prove that he's not a Satanist

1:11:52

because he was basic. He was basically proven

1:11:55

guilty because it was speculated that he was

1:11:58

into Satan and that he was. Maryland,

1:12:00

Maryland, thanks for the donation, but uh,

1:12:02

I can't talk about that. And so

1:12:04

befriending somebody like Marilyn Manson and bringing

1:12:06

him to the forefront, then it looks

1:12:08

a little like maybe you are Satanist,

1:12:10

not saying that Marilyn Manson is, but

1:12:12

it was agreed upon and I think

1:12:14

it might have even been Marilyn Manson's

1:12:16

idea was that how about I support

1:12:18

you from behind the scenes because me

1:12:20

being involved might look bad for you.

1:12:23

Yeah, yeah, totally makes a lot of sense. So these

1:12:25

guys get involved. Natalie Maines was

1:12:27

involved. I said Dixie Chicks. Did you? Um,

1:12:30

I included all of them. It might've just been her, but

1:12:33

so I get involved in this money is being raised and what

1:12:35

they're trying to do and this is good

1:12:37

because they're looking for evidence to point to the

1:12:39

fact that they're innocent. They're also

1:12:41

looking for, you know, little

1:12:44

loopholes in the system. They're

1:12:47

looking for everything, but they're

1:12:49

also hiring investigators to start

1:12:51

questioning people now in paradise

1:12:53

loss. Like we said, they go after

1:12:55

buyers and then if you watch west

1:12:58

of Memphis, they go after Hobbs. The

1:13:00

problem with both of these individuals

1:13:03

is there's not a lot of evidence

1:13:05

that links either one of these two.

1:13:08

There's a ton of speculation.

1:13:10

There's a ton of character.

1:13:12

I don't want to call it

1:13:14

character assassination because I think some of these

1:13:17

people are just weird people, but it's stuff

1:13:19

that attacks their character just like they did

1:13:21

with Damien, which is not

1:13:23

real evidence. You're

1:13:25

exactly right. Exactly what

1:13:28

they did to Damien and Jason and Jesse. I

1:13:31

mean, other than the confession of Jesse, but what

1:13:34

happened to Jason and Damien, I'm sorry,

1:13:36

is exactly what happened to Mark Byers

1:13:38

and then Terry Hobbs. And

1:13:41

first of all, what did they have against

1:13:43

Mark Byers? Okay. They point

1:13:45

out that he has times of

1:13:47

the evening that he's unaccounted for. Well,

1:13:50

he talked to the police officer so much

1:13:52

that night. I mean, he was around

1:13:54

police officers a lot. He had a lot of

1:13:56

communication with police officers. He's asking

1:13:58

police officers. What should I do?

1:14:00

Because I don't know what to do in this

1:14:02

point. Not only is he around

1:14:05

police officers, but we just went through his

1:14:07

timeline. There's not enough time for him to

1:14:09

have committed this crime and to hide the

1:14:11

bodies the way that they were hid. He

1:14:14

was around other people almost that entire evening.

1:14:16

Yeah, he might have had 10 minutes here

1:14:19

or five minutes there by himself, but that's

1:14:21

not the amount of time that it would

1:14:23

have taken to conceal these bodies. Now, they

1:14:25

go after him because of a few different

1:14:27

things. Well, there's a bite mark on Stevie

1:14:29

Branch's face. They think it might

1:14:31

be a bite mark. It originally came out as

1:14:33

a belt, like buckle

1:14:35

mark. They thought it was a belt buckle

1:14:37

mark. When I read the

1:14:39

autopsy and from the testimony of the

1:14:42

medical examiner's office in both of the

1:14:44

trials, there was more than just

1:14:46

that. There was not only a

1:14:48

belt mark on one of the kids or what

1:14:50

could have been a belt mark on one of

1:14:52

the kids, but there was also definitely a bite

1:14:55

or could be a bite on Stevie Branch's

1:14:57

face, but they actually believed that there was

1:15:00

more than one bite on his face. There

1:15:02

was always this one bite that was talked

1:15:04

about. There was believed that there was multiple

1:15:06

attacks to the face and several of them

1:15:09

looked like they could have been bites. That's

1:15:11

crazy. Now, one thing that made him, buyers

1:15:14

look guilty, was he had had his teeth

1:15:16

removed or he had lost his teeth. They're

1:15:19

uncertain about how he lost his teeth or

1:15:21

why he didn't have teeth or whatever. People

1:15:23

claim that because he replaced his teeth that

1:15:26

that was to hide his guilt. Well,

1:15:28

then also the bite mark, there is a bunch

1:15:30

of stuff online. Terry

1:15:33

Hobbs has partials. He had partials at

1:15:35

the time. Partials

1:15:37

are where they make dentures, but they

1:15:39

connect to other teeth. If

1:15:41

you look at the imprint, it

1:15:44

matches Hobbs. Now

1:15:46

I've looked at them, it looks pretty

1:15:48

convincing. The other problem is, is

1:15:50

we have to bring into the snapping turtle thing.

1:15:53

There was marks on the

1:15:55

ears, nose, mouth, possibly face,

1:15:58

and those might be considered consistent with

1:16:01

post-mortem bites by the

1:16:03

snapping turtles. Now, I should point out

1:16:05

here though that I don't think that regardless if this

1:16:07

was injuries that were

1:16:09

post-mortem by snapping turtles or if

1:16:11

they were bite

1:16:13

marks or damage done to the face or

1:16:16

bodies of the boys while they were still

1:16:18

alive, I don't really think that snapping

1:16:21

turtles being involved points to anybody

1:16:23

being innocent. No, no, no. The

1:16:26

only thing that it might point to

1:16:28

is the damage that was

1:16:31

done to Christopher Byers where

1:16:33

they had said that the

1:16:35

removement of the castration

1:16:38

would be something that would be

1:16:41

done in a satanic ritual. So

1:16:44

that would be the only thing that might

1:16:46

link to somebody being innocent. People

1:16:49

also want to point out that Mark Byers had

1:16:52

moments where he was violent before the

1:16:55

boys were killed. He had an instance

1:16:57

where he had attacked his first wife

1:17:00

and that was on police record. She

1:17:03

said that he had threatened to kill her

1:17:05

and that he was attacking her with a

1:17:07

stun gun with like a zapper and that

1:17:10

was of police record. Interesting

1:17:12

choice of weapons. Yeah, and

1:17:14

that he had been violent

1:17:16

after the war. I'll take the knife, I'll take the

1:17:18

stun gun. Well, no, and then

1:17:21

his wife dies a mysterious death. Yeah,

1:17:23

and he says that she died in

1:17:25

bed with him and people have always

1:17:27

wondered about that as well. I

1:17:31

don't find anything there. I don't see anything there.

1:17:34

If there was something there, the police would have, I think,

1:17:36

would have dove into that a little more. And

1:17:39

I don't think that if you

1:17:41

review his history and Melissa Byers'

1:17:43

history, they're not the most healthy

1:17:45

people. And what I mean

1:17:48

by that is at one point, Melissa had

1:17:50

been using heroin or some kind of

1:17:54

strong drug And they

1:17:56

were both known to be on and off of

1:17:59

pills and maybe cocaine. from time to time. So.

1:18:02

They had a had a history

1:18:04

of living hard. Let's say,

1:18:07

and so it doesn't surprise me that

1:18:09

she didn't live to be super old

1:18:11

timey. There's definitely some weird stuff with

1:18:14

buyers, but nothing that really points Tom's.

1:18:17

Directly. Know, because here's the thing.

1:18:19

I don't care if somebody was, You know

1:18:21

it's it's not a good thing to ever

1:18:23

be violent, but I don't care if somebody

1:18:25

has a record of being violent in the

1:18:27

past or in the future. Is it all

1:18:29

that matters is, was he violent that day?

1:18:31

Was he violent? Was he homicidal? That.

1:18:33

Day And a problem that I have

1:18:35

with that is yes, he's a strange

1:18:38

birdman. There's no arguing that and it

1:18:40

is a weird. Does he? Did he

1:18:42

fail a polygraph test? Yes. Did he

1:18:44

pass a polygraph test? Yes. Did submit

1:18:46

everything that they asked him to smith?

1:18:49

Yes, he submitted blood and hair fingerprints,

1:18:51

they didn't find anything of his ever

1:18:53

at the crime scene, And furthermore, we

1:18:55

just went through a timeline and episode

1:18:57

tubes that does not allow a window

1:19:00

but window of time to do any.

1:19:02

All and then it's. Also a he

1:19:04

said he has be homicidal that day

1:19:06

and so then he would have to

1:19:09

talk to police officers multiple times. And.

1:19:12

To. Cover up that. He. Spoke

1:19:14

to the police more than anybody else

1:19:16

during the search for these boys and

1:19:18

not only did he not only did

1:19:20

he was he the first call police,

1:19:22

he had spoken to several police officers

1:19:24

when he was out searching for his

1:19:27

voice and nellie that he came home

1:19:29

and eleven or twelve o'clock at night

1:19:31

and called the sheriff's department in complain

1:19:33

that they weren't doing everything that they

1:19:35

could do to find his son and

1:19:37

the other bright enough for guilty of

1:19:39

a young. Want to go? Hey cops

1:19:41

cops, We need more cops. And furthermore.

1:19:43

See was he was when they said that

1:19:46

they were going to investigate the families, people

1:19:48

that knew the boys, people that didn't know

1:19:50

the boys and either a gang or and

1:19:52

or called. The. the one person

1:19:54

out of all the families that they investigated

1:19:56

and talk to more than anybody else was

1:19:59

john mark bottles He spoke to them

1:20:02

often, willingly and often. He likes

1:20:04

to talk. Okay, so

1:20:06

what about the people that may or may

1:20:08

not have known the boys? Well this would

1:20:10

be some of the miscellaneous people that the

1:20:13

police had spoken to. Miss the Bojangles. Yeah,

1:20:16

so we got the problem with the Bojangles

1:20:18

restaurant. So yeah,

1:20:20

real quickly the guy goes into the women's

1:20:22

restroom, he's bloody, he's muddy, he

1:20:24

leaves some evidence behind, they collect

1:20:27

it, and then they

1:20:29

lose the evidence. They conveniently lose

1:20:31

the evidence. And nothing's known about

1:20:33

this guy. And unfortunately before the

1:20:36

police, before Regina Meeks can arrive,

1:20:39

this person has already wandered off

1:20:41

according to the manager. I think

1:20:43

there's something there because there's something

1:20:46

about the timing of that. She

1:20:49

arrives about 8.30 to go

1:20:51

talk to the restaurant manager.

1:20:53

Which is a strange time for me because I don't

1:20:56

know, the boys are last seen about 6.00, 6.30. It's

1:21:00

starting to get dark around that time.

1:21:02

It's a window of about two hours.

1:21:05

Yeah, and nobody knows who this person

1:21:07

is, he's not identified. And there was

1:21:09

an African American hair found at the

1:21:11

scene. Yes there was, and that has

1:21:14

never been fully explained. But

1:21:16

so it's very interesting,

1:21:19

interesting, but it's

1:21:21

just a big question mark. And

1:21:24

then again, we talked about the vans.

1:21:26

There were multiple sightings of these strange

1:21:28

vans. One black van was

1:21:30

found parked on an abandoned property that was

1:21:33

near the woods, and that was spotted that

1:21:35

night. That was actually spotted by John Mark

1:21:37

Byers and several other people that had reported

1:21:39

it to police. There was also the strange

1:21:42

white man that was driving the white van.

1:21:46

The white man in the white van. Some reported a

1:21:48

young man in a white van, some reported an old

1:21:50

man in a white van. And we got a black

1:21:52

man in a black van. Well, there was

1:21:54

reported a black man in a white van with a

1:21:58

Illinois license plate. Okay. Get

1:22:02

it together. Okay, but all at

1:22:04

the end of the day, it's a big question mark and we

1:22:06

wish we knew more about Mr. Bojangles.

1:22:09

Yeah. There were also the boys,

1:22:11

the teenage boys that reported seeing coming

1:22:13

out of Robin Hood Hills by Dawn

1:22:15

Moore, the sister of Michael Moore. And

1:22:17

that would be the one white

1:22:20

male and two black males. Yeah.

1:22:23

And we don't know that that means anything. And

1:22:26

who knows what time that was. The girl

1:22:28

is, she's about 10 years old. She's not

1:22:30

able to give an accurate time. Well, and

1:22:32

it could not be an accurate statement. It

1:22:34

could have been three white boys or

1:22:36

it could be three black boys were not that

1:22:38

fair. So that's this

1:22:40

big question mark there. But then there

1:22:43

was two gentlemen that left west of Memphis

1:22:45

like 10 days after the murders take

1:22:48

place and then those boys

1:22:50

head out to California. So they

1:22:52

track those boys down. Yeah.

1:22:55

The story with those guys, about

1:22:58

four days after the bodies were

1:23:00

found, Chris Morgan and Brian Holland,

1:23:02

they were known in the area.

1:23:04

They had prior drug offenses. They

1:23:06

were kind of on the police

1:23:09

spotlight, let's say. They

1:23:11

were aware of these characters and these

1:23:13

guys had taken off and

1:23:15

they had gone for California. And

1:23:18

they arrested them in California on May 17th,

1:23:20

1993. This

1:23:24

is an ocean side. Now they

1:23:26

picked them up because they're concerned about

1:23:29

why would they, what they're going to

1:23:31

refer to as flee the area shortly

1:23:33

after the murders. Well they

1:23:35

took off about, as we said, four days

1:23:37

after the bodies were found. They picked up

1:23:39

on the 17th and they're

1:23:41

given polygraph exams. Now they

1:23:43

are asked similar questions that we

1:23:46

mentioned. Which they don't have to take

1:23:48

these tests, but they do because they're

1:23:50

cooperating and they're doing

1:23:52

that, what's

1:23:55

it called? The survey. The

1:23:57

FBI survey. And it's like we had said.

1:23:59

The FBI worked with the West Memphis police,

1:24:02

came up with this questionnaire. They're giving them

1:24:04

similar questions that they gave to Jesse, Ms.

1:24:06

Kelly in his confession. And

1:24:09

they come back and they say, well, you're lying.

1:24:12

And we- We've seen this before. Right.

1:24:14

We're going to interrogate you further. Well, at some

1:24:17

point during the interrogation, one

1:24:20

of the boys, and I say boys because

1:24:22

these are pretty young men. I mean, they're

1:24:25

like 18, 19 years old. And

1:24:28

one of them had said that he might

1:24:30

have known one or several of the murdered

1:24:32

boys because he had previously driven in a

1:24:35

ice cream truck and he had a route

1:24:37

in the neighborhood. Right. So he- That

1:24:40

makes sense. Yeah. He said

1:24:42

that he may have known one or all of

1:24:44

them. And after- Or at least seen them. Yeah.

1:24:47

And after being talked to for a while, they held them there

1:24:49

for quite some time and questioned them for quite some time. Right.

1:24:52

One of them had a drug and

1:24:54

alcohol problem. And

1:24:56

he had said that at times he

1:24:59

would even experience blackouts and memory lapses

1:25:01

and he couldn't account

1:25:03

for some of his time. At

1:25:07

some point, this interview becomes very

1:25:10

heated. And at some

1:25:12

point he starts, he stands up on the

1:25:14

chair and he's yelling at the officers. And

1:25:16

his exact statement is this. Do

1:25:20

you want me to lie? Do you want me to lie?

1:25:22

You want me to say that I fucking killed those boys? Okay,

1:25:25

maybe I killed him. He says something

1:25:27

to that. That's not verbatim. Right, right.

1:25:30

But he's yelling at- That's not a confession. Right.

1:25:33

He's yelling at these officers. And to

1:25:35

be honest with you, if I've read

1:25:37

his whole statement, I

1:25:40

wouldn't say that I would do the exact

1:25:43

thing, but I would probably do something very

1:25:45

similar. Because I've always wondered

1:25:47

when you see these people being interrogated and they

1:25:49

know they're innocent and yet

1:25:51

these people just poking at them and poking at

1:25:53

them and poking at them. I'm

1:25:55

not saying that I would stand up and say, yeah,

1:25:57

I killed them. What I'm saying is I could see

1:25:59

myself getting- Angry and yelling back and

1:26:01

getting verbal and getting hostile with these

1:26:03

officers. Well, this actually happened to me

1:26:06

in eighth grade So here's

1:26:08

the story this girl Somebody

1:26:11

throws a full pop can

1:26:13

Unopen at this little

1:26:16

girl and it hits her in

1:26:18

the head and they said I did it so

1:26:20

they pulled me down to the plea or not

1:26:23

to the police to the principal's office and He's

1:26:26

going to town on me, right? He's going

1:26:28

he's saying you did this, you know,

1:26:30

you did this polygraph to you and waterboard you and

1:26:32

everything Yeah, and I'm saying I didn't do this. I

1:26:34

didn't do this. I couldn't figure out

1:26:36

how I knew I mean one I knew I

1:26:38

didn't throw the can but but I knew for

1:26:40

a fact that I I didn't do this And

1:26:43

then halfway through him yelling at me.

1:26:45

I realized I wasn't even on

1:26:47

the bus that day I Missed

1:26:50

the bus and my father had to take me

1:26:52

to school. So now I'm screaming I wasn't even

1:26:54

on the bus and he's going. Yes you are

1:26:56

and I end up Standing

1:26:59

up throwing that my chair and then

1:27:01

slamming this door on my way out

1:27:03

and it broke the door And

1:27:06

then I got in trouble for that. I got

1:27:08

suspended Like in school

1:27:10

suspension, but it's bullshit anyways You're you're falsely accusing me

1:27:12

of something and I proved that I wasn't even on

1:27:14

the bus So I shouldn't got in trouble in the

1:27:16

first place and that proves my point I've always thought

1:27:19

that at some point I wouldn't be able to take

1:27:21

it anymore and I would just kind of start Yeah,

1:27:23

I lost my shit. Yeah, if you're

1:27:25

ever pulled in anywhere You

1:27:28

should just always ask for an attorney always ask

1:27:30

for an attorney. Well, they wouldn't let me I

1:27:32

I was after Not

1:27:34

you I'm talking about these guys in

1:27:36

California. So here's the real story This

1:27:38

is the story that we get told right?

1:27:40

But what what we're not told and what

1:27:42

what you will find one should dive into

1:27:44

this particular part of the case Is

1:27:47

that these two guys didn't just get

1:27:49

up and leave they received a ride

1:27:51

from friends of theirs They rode out

1:27:53

there with several friends of theirs that

1:27:55

it was traveling elsewhere and dropped them

1:27:57

off along the way They

1:27:59

didn't have any intention of living out the

1:28:01

rest of their lives in California or on

1:28:03

the run. They plan to be

1:28:06

in California for a few weeks or maybe

1:28:08

a month and they wanted to return back

1:28:10

to Memphis area. Right, so it seems like,

1:28:12

hey, we're going out that way if you

1:28:14

want to visit your sister which that's who

1:28:16

they're visiting, one of the guys' sisters. But

1:28:19

hey, we're going out that way. You want to hitch a ride? And

1:28:21

not only that, they willingly

1:28:23

submitted blood and urine samples as

1:28:26

well as fingerprints and they

1:28:28

went along with the polygraph. They went along

1:28:31

with the interview. They went along with the

1:28:33

questioning. Just like Damien Echols and Jason

1:28:35

Baldwin. The only thing here is that when

1:28:37

they submitted this evidence to what could be

1:28:40

evidence to West Memphis police. They'll tell me

1:28:42

they lost it. They didn't lose it. No,

1:28:44

they didn't lose it. They just, there seems

1:28:46

to be no, they didn't do anything with

1:28:49

it. Alright, so they didn't test it. Good

1:28:52

job. There's plenty of other miscellaneous people

1:28:54

too that are involved in this case

1:28:57

but it's also like we said, it's

1:28:59

just minutia. It's just small little incidences

1:29:01

of people that had done things in

1:29:03

the past. The question, you get about

1:29:05

a paragraph worth of notes of an

1:29:08

interview that was conducted by police. Some

1:29:10

of them submitted blood, urine,

1:29:13

fingerprints. Some of

1:29:16

them submitted to polygraph test. None

1:29:18

of that seems to have gone anywhere. So

1:29:20

now we have, what, we're

1:29:22

left with Terry Hobbs. He's a big question.

1:29:24

Well we're left with Terry Hobbs and the

1:29:26

West Memphis three. That's what we're down to.

1:29:29

So what are the problems with Terry Hobbs?

1:29:31

This comes about when? 2007-ish? Yeah.

1:29:35

This comes about before the Alfred plea.

1:29:37

Well yeah, because they go

1:29:39

after buyers first and then, but they

1:29:41

start doing tests and like I said,

1:29:43

the money that was raised, they

1:29:46

have investigators on the ground. And I think

1:29:48

that's where it starts coming from. They

1:29:50

finally are able to test DNA

1:29:52

on this hair sample. This

1:29:55

hair sample is found in one of

1:29:57

the shoelaces that is binding Michael Moore.

1:30:00

tying the hand to the ankle. Now

1:30:03

this is, it comes back and it

1:30:05

does not, what does it do?

1:30:07

It does eliminate Damien Eccles, it

1:30:10

doesn't match Jesse Miss Kelly, and

1:30:13

it doesn't match Jason Baldwin. However,

1:30:16

it is not inconsistent with that of

1:30:19

the hair of Terry Hobbs, meaning it

1:30:21

could be his hair. But it's not

1:30:23

an exact match. No. And there's different

1:30:26

matches as far as DNA goes. So

1:30:28

it's just, it's not an exact

1:30:30

match, it's just in the ballpark. And

1:30:32

let's talk about this for a second.

1:30:35

We have, what are the percentages? They

1:30:37

come out and they say it's one

1:30:39

and a half percent of the population

1:30:41

would match this hair. Mm-hmm. Something like

1:30:43

that. Okay, so the population at, in

1:30:46

West Memphis at the time of 1993 is roughly between 25,000 and

1:30:52

30,000 people. So that means that that

1:30:54

hair and just the people that live in

1:30:56

that area would match Terry Hobbs plus

1:30:58

249 to 299 other people. Right. It's still,

1:31:04

I mean, it's suspicious though.

1:31:06

But then you talked about

1:31:08

transfer. I mean one of the

1:31:11

boys that was a victim was

1:31:13

his stepson. And then these boys were

1:31:15

known to play in his house. So

1:31:18

again, that's something

1:31:20

that can be transferred. We're talking about one

1:31:22

hair. Well, and that's also going

1:31:24

under the assumption that Michael Moore was tied

1:31:27

up by his own shoelaces. One

1:31:29

thing that we're not able to figure out

1:31:31

when we look at the evidence is what

1:31:33

boy was tied up with what boy's shoelaces.

1:31:35

It just because, just because they

1:31:37

were each tied up with shoelaces doesn't mean

1:31:39

that they were tied up with their own.

1:31:42

You're talking about there, there's a chance that

1:31:44

that shoelace binding Michael Moore could have been

1:31:46

Stevie branch's shoelace. Well, and that would make

1:31:48

a lot of sense why there's a hair

1:31:50

of his stepdad on his

1:31:52

shoe. Now there's another problem though with

1:31:55

Terry Hobbs. His friend David

1:31:57

Jacoby, they find a hair of

1:32:00

his on a tree at

1:32:02

the crime scene. Well I remember with the

1:32:04

timeline they both claimed that they were in

1:32:06

those woods on the fifth looking for the

1:32:09

boys. Exactly. Not only do they both claim

1:32:11

it but you also have John Mark Byers

1:32:13

who's very convinced that the two of them

1:32:15

are probably guilty. He also says... He's convinced

1:32:18

now though. Yeah. But he was also convinced

1:32:20

that the West Memphis Three were guilty at

1:32:22

the beginning. And he does

1:32:24

say in his statement to police at

1:32:27

the time, this is a statement given

1:32:29

in 1993, that he had saw Terry

1:32:31

Hobbs multiple times in the woods when

1:32:34

he was searching, Terry Hobbs was searching

1:32:36

as well, and that he

1:32:38

couldn't remember for certain but he

1:32:40

might have had his friend with him. Right.

1:32:42

This is the same friend that would be

1:32:44

talking to them underneath the streetlight. So

1:32:47

there is some explanation why

1:32:50

those hairs or fibers would have been found

1:32:52

there. Yeah. Then a lot of

1:32:54

the other stuff if you watch West

1:32:56

of Memphis it's just a

1:32:58

lot of stuff that dives into his

1:33:00

character. And it seems like

1:33:03

there's some shady stuff going on there. The

1:33:05

problem is the source is coming from.

1:33:07

It's coming from Pam Hobbs which is

1:33:09

now his ex-wife. And

1:33:12

they were together for almost 10 years

1:33:14

before she started making these claims. Yeah.

1:33:17

At no point in 1993

1:33:19

when she talks to police does she ever

1:33:21

say that Terry Hobbs is guilty of anything

1:33:23

or suspects in something? Or says so much

1:33:25

bad about him and it's not till years

1:33:28

and years and years later and now mentioned

1:33:31

that I feel bad

1:33:33

for Pam Hobbs because she seems like

1:33:35

somebody and she has the right to you don't

1:33:37

have to get over this tragedy but she

1:33:39

seems like somebody that it is

1:33:42

going to be permanently scarred haunted

1:33:44

this event that happened on

1:33:46

May 5th changed

1:33:48

everything and I don't think for the better.

1:33:51

Yeah it's definitely ruined her life and you

1:33:53

know she's tried to go on but you

1:33:55

can tell when she talks that

1:33:57

it it's with her every day she carries

1:33:59

a around with her and you

1:34:01

have to. She's

1:34:04

carrying the burden more than a lot of

1:34:07

people would and I totally

1:34:09

understand that because nobody could be in that.

1:34:12

It's just impossible to put myself

1:34:14

in her situation. It's nothing I've

1:34:16

ever experienced and I can't

1:34:18

believe that it's something that you get over. I

1:34:20

guess that at some point it's something that maybe

1:34:22

you have to just accept. But

1:34:25

it just seems like the accusations that she's

1:34:27

coming out about Terry Hobbs

1:34:29

are so far after the fact

1:34:32

that it's just hard to believe. Then

1:34:36

there's talk in like West of

1:34:38

Memphis, again in character stuff. Well

1:34:41

he shot one of her brothers.

1:34:43

Yeah. Yeah. That

1:34:46

doesn't look good, right? No, there's a lot

1:34:48

of stuff that doesn't look good. Well if

1:34:50

we're going to bring that up though, we

1:34:52

should probably tell a bit of the story

1:34:54

of maybe why he shot the brother, right?

1:34:56

Well there's an altercation between him and Pam

1:34:58

and then she again the

1:35:01

day on the 5th calls

1:35:03

her family and her, like we said,

1:35:06

Terry Hobbs is looking and Pam Hobbs'

1:35:08

dad is looking so she calls

1:35:10

after this altercation and the

1:35:12

dad and the brother come out and the

1:35:15

brothers were known to kind of harass

1:35:17

some of the female.

1:35:21

Well not the females, but what happened is

1:35:23

Pam comes from a big family. She's

1:35:26

got a couple sisters, she's got a couple

1:35:28

brothers and apparently throughout the times growing up

1:35:30

in adulthood that some of the sisters

1:35:33

had had problems with boyfriends or

1:35:36

husbands. And when those problems

1:35:38

came up, sometimes dad was notified and

1:35:40

sometimes dad showed up with the sons

1:35:42

who were willing and able to confront

1:35:45

and maybe attack the boyfriend

1:35:48

or husband of the

1:35:50

sister. Yeah. Of any of

1:35:52

the sisters. So and now this is what happened

1:35:54

with Terry Hobbs and Pam Hobbs. There's an altercation.

1:35:57

According to him, she got physical first and then

1:35:59

he got physical. physical back and

1:36:01

the other way it's not right on both ends

1:36:03

nobody should get physical with anybody but a phone

1:36:06

calls made to dad and then the brother comes

1:36:08

out and Terry I don't know how

1:36:10

exactly it went down at that point but I'm

1:36:12

but he kind of greets him with a shotgun

1:36:14

or not a shotgun but a pistol or something

1:36:16

well yeah and he claims that he was attacked

1:36:18

and then he was defending himself now here's what

1:36:20

we do know is that

1:36:22

there's Pam side and then there's Terry

1:36:25

outside and somewhere in the middle is

1:36:27

the truth and that's all we know so

1:36:30

there's just a lot of hearsay there's a

1:36:32

lot of speculation all you have

1:36:34

is this fiber not a fiber

1:36:36

but a hair sample his

1:36:38

timeline doesn't you know

1:36:41

there are some spots in his timeline

1:36:43

there's a little weird and here's the

1:36:45

problem though with his timeline you

1:36:47

know Pam gives a statement back in

1:36:49

May of 93 hmm Terry

1:36:52

Hobbs gives no statement that's not through any

1:36:54

fault of his own that's through the fault

1:36:56

of the West Memphis police they never interview

1:36:59

him they came by the house they interviewed

1:37:01

Pam and Terry wasn't there that day so

1:37:03

they never bothered to get back around to

1:37:05

interviewing Terry now furthermore when they interview Pam

1:37:08

it's a short interview there's basically a

1:37:11

couple sentences to describe what she says

1:37:13

that that she was doing and her

1:37:15

husband were doing that day and they

1:37:18

just take it as fact and they

1:37:20

left it at that now so these

1:37:22

reports were not coming out there's not

1:37:24

good reports coming out there's

1:37:26

not a good solid interview of Pam

1:37:29

Hobbs or Terry Hobbs until 2007 and

1:37:31

this carries on to David Jacoby as

1:37:33

well he's not interviewed until 2007 yeah

1:37:35

and then they're re-interviewed for the West

1:37:38

West of Memphis documentary and then because

1:37:41

of this documentary the police go back

1:37:43

and interview Terry Hobbs and you can

1:37:45

watch that whole it's not an

1:37:47

interrogation it's definitely a

1:37:50

casual interview I wouldn't

1:37:52

call it interrogation you

1:37:54

can watch all that online I

1:37:56

think there's definitely some stuff that seems

1:37:58

fishy at the end of the day,

1:38:01

where's the evidence? This

1:38:04

hair that matches so many other people and

1:38:06

as far as transferring goes,

1:38:08

it makes a lot of sense. So

1:38:11

again, another person where there's just

1:38:13

not enough pointing at him. And

1:38:16

then the stuff that are pointing at, the things that

1:38:18

they do point at him, look where it's coming from.

1:38:21

What about the knife? Here's another knife that's

1:38:23

brought into this case. Yeah, the... The

1:38:26

pocket knife. Yeah. The

1:38:28

Stevie branch was Boy Scout. Yeah. And

1:38:31

so he had this little pocket knife. And

1:38:34

so Pam Hobbs claims that he would have

1:38:36

had that pocket knife on him that

1:38:39

day. So then the

1:38:41

boys are found and later

1:38:43

on, like a year or so later, she

1:38:45

finds the knife and

1:38:48

Terry Hobbs is like nightstand. And

1:38:51

yeah, she says that Stevie would not

1:38:53

have gone anywhere without that knife. Here's

1:38:56

a couple things about that. First of all, he

1:38:58

came home from school and he left almost immediately

1:39:00

to go out and play after coming home from

1:39:02

school. So chances are they didn't take the knife

1:39:04

to school. Everybody knows you shouldn't carry a knife

1:39:06

to school. Doesn't stop some boys, but I'm guessing

1:39:08

he probably didn't have it with him and he

1:39:11

wasn't at home long enough to think about grabbing

1:39:13

it. Again, then

1:39:15

Terry Hobbs' story is that he was messing around

1:39:17

with the knife and he just thought my boy

1:39:19

doesn't need to have this knife. He's messing around

1:39:21

with it. He's not being responsible with it. And

1:39:23

Terry Hobbs is not saying I took the knife

1:39:25

from him on May 5th. He's saying I took

1:39:27

it to him prior to May 5th. And

1:39:30

that's something, again, he's a

1:39:32

stepfather. So he's disciplining some,

1:39:35

you know, I was a stepfather before,

1:39:37

so I've had the same situation. One

1:39:40

of my boys was messing around with the knife and

1:39:42

I had to say to him, hey, can

1:39:44

you not

1:39:46

do that? That's not responsible. This

1:39:49

is not a toy. And I had to take it away.

1:39:52

And I put it into a little box. And

1:39:54

then one day my wife sees,

1:39:57

you know, my ex-wife sees the

1:39:59

knife. and says,

1:40:01

what's this? I had to explain

1:40:04

the situation. And it's

1:40:06

the same situation as

1:40:08

Terry Hobbs. Another thing that I want

1:40:10

to bring up is how the police

1:40:13

acted shortly after finding the bodies. Remember

1:40:15

in episode one we had said that

1:40:17

all of the items, all of the

1:40:19

clothing that was reported to be on

1:40:22

the persons of the missing boys all

1:40:25

of it was recovered with the exception of

1:40:27

a single sock and two

1:40:29

pair of underwear. So

1:40:32

that's all that was missing. Now

1:40:34

later, this was days after

1:40:36

the bodies were found, police went to

1:40:39

the families and they had said, could

1:40:41

there have been anything else with these

1:40:43

boys that we didn't find? Could there

1:40:45

be anything that you could think of? Would any

1:40:47

of them have had a pocket knife? And

1:40:50

they specifically say pocket knife. Would any of

1:40:52

them have had a billfold? Would any of

1:40:54

them have a pin on their hat or

1:40:56

a pin on their shirt? The reason why

1:40:58

they're asking about these things is because they