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1:30

disturbing stories and includes some strong language.

1:33

It therefore may not be suitable for

1:35

our young listeners or other folks who

1:37

may find it disturbing. Hello and welcome

1:40

to True Crime Daily, the podcast covering

1:42

high profile and under the radar cases

1:44

from across the country every week. I'm

1:46

your host, Anna Garcia. Our cases this

1:49

week, nine days after

1:51

a repeat offender is released from

1:54

prison, he stalks and he targets

1:56

five women. He

2:00

sexually assaults and kills the

2:02

woman. He was seen

2:04

on street security cameras between midnight

2:06

and 2 a.m. carrying out his

2:09

terror. Two questions. Why

2:12

was he let out in the first place?

2:14

And why didn't anyone

2:17

monitoring these street cameras

2:19

do something and call

2:21

police? But first, a

2:23

woman convicted of poisoning a family friend

2:25

with eye drops in order to steal $300,000

2:27

has been sentenced to life. But

2:32

before she heard her sentence, she

2:34

made a two-hour statement to

2:36

the court that pretty much nailed

2:39

her coffin. We are recording this

2:41

on Wednesday, April 9th of 2024. Our

2:44

guest today is Dr. Tracey Tambora, an

2:47

expert on domestic violence and a professor

2:49

of criminal justice at the University of

2:51

New Haven and a dear friend of

2:54

the show. Tracey, welcome back.

2:56

How are you? Oh, I'm so

2:58

good. Anna, thank you so much for having

3:00

me today. It's always a

3:02

pleasure to be here. And although

3:04

I am a professor of criminal justice, I always

3:06

learn something from the show. Wow.

3:09

Okay. That's exciting. I

3:11

love the scales of justice behind you

3:13

there, Dr. Tracey. Those

3:17

scales were in my family for

3:19

two generations. Yes. Really?

3:22

Did you come from a

3:24

family of lawyers or professors?

3:27

You know, I have an interesting family

3:29

background. Most of my family

3:31

were laborers of

3:33

some sort, but my grandfather,

3:35

one of eight, went

3:38

to law school after World War II

3:40

on the GI Bill. And

3:43

all of the rest of his family

3:45

really eighth grade to 12th grade education,

3:47

but he went to law school, practiced

3:49

law, and that had

3:51

a lasting impression on me. Yeah. And

3:54

those are his scales? Those are

3:56

his scales or they were his relative who

3:58

gave them to him. Yeah.

4:00

Wow. That's amazing. Well, then

4:03

we have the right person on the program

4:05

today. Tracy, we have some

4:07

very disturbing cases as always. The

4:10

second one in particular really will speak to

4:12

your expertise when we have

4:15

this serial predator who

4:17

should have never been let out on the streets. And this

4:19

first one, you know, is an

4:21

interesting twist on a crime

4:23

that we see over and over again. You know,

4:26

we see people being

4:28

killed for financial gain.

4:31

And the reason this one is interesting

4:36

is that we've seen an uptick in

4:38

the last few years on murders

4:40

that have been committed with the use of

4:42

eye drops. And

4:45

it's fascinating. And this is one

4:47

of those cases. Yeah,

4:49

this is what I mean when I

4:51

say I always learn something from the

4:53

show, because as criminologists, we study crime

4:55

on the aggregate, like what's happening in

4:57

the general population. Something as

4:59

specific as an eye drop related homicide

5:02

is not something that I paid particular

5:04

attention. But when I read about this

5:06

case, and I then I

5:08

googled something to prepare, and a bunch

5:11

of cases using eye drops came up.

5:13

So I had no idea that this was now

5:15

a weapon. I think

5:18

of it as a weapon that is being

5:20

used in homicide. It is a

5:22

weapon. And here's why it is odorless,

5:25

it is tasteless. And

5:27

if ingested in large enough quantities,

5:29

meaning enough of those little bottles,

5:31

even though these bottles of of

5:34

eye drops are tiny, you pour a

5:36

couple of those or more into a

5:39

glass of water or anything

5:41

pudding, and it can

5:44

start to slow down the heart, right,

5:46

the lungs, the brain, think

5:48

of like a sedative. If you do

5:50

it over a prolonged period of time

5:53

in smaller doses, you're ill.

5:55

And They can't figure out what's causing

5:58

your illness. So... Why

6:00

are we have seen a rash of other

6:02

when you use any type of poison or

6:04

toxin? Was somebody. Who is older Or

6:06

who has preexisting. Conditions harder

6:08

to detect because irregularities

6:11

with the body are

6:13

expected. Or an older person

6:16

with pre existing condition, so

6:18

on. Unfortunately clever,

6:20

but fortunately not clever

6:22

enough. Yes, Not clever

6:24

enough and what will see

6:26

is this incredible exchange between.

6:29

The descendants who went on and on

6:31

for hours as like is her right

6:33

now disappointed already been convicted spent. She's

6:35

going on and on about how the

6:37

state. Is wrong and you're all wrong

6:39

and I am. Ride and you know.

6:41

At this point when you been convicted, you're trying

6:43

to get mercy. And.

6:47

That Anna does. This case reminds

6:49

you of a case that I

6:51

was previously presented with. Regarding the

6:53

cheesecake, the woman who gave her the

6:55

points and cheesecake. And even

6:57

when she gave to her neighbor

6:59

to steal her identity south of

7:01

the identity thefts right and and

7:04

one of the most interesting port

7:06

points of that case was not

7:08

just the facts of the case

7:10

but it was also the reaction

7:12

of the defendant during the trial.

7:14

This kind of ending indignation, arm

7:16

and real failure to accept any.

7:18

Accountability. So for me that as

7:21

a from others that's the interesting piece. When

7:23

are people accountable for their behavior and when

7:25

aren't they. Sell beer, And

7:28

in this case. He just doubled down

7:30

on all of her denials m blamed

7:32

it on everyone else, everyone else which

7:34

you know. Look, I think she was

7:36

going to receive a very long sentence

7:39

but she didn't door self any papers.

7:41

And then the judge. the judge was in.

7:43

You know, intolerant of this. And then let's

7:45

just say. They both were a little pussy with

7:48

each other and would we. Will play some

7:50

of that. So let's get to

7:52

our first case out of Milwaukee

7:54

and you know we have been

7:56

following this particular case for several

7:58

years now from. The moment the

8:00

arrest because it's just been such

8:03

an interesting case. To the victim

8:05

here is sixty two year old

8:07

Lin Hernan who I'm was apparently

8:10

given a least water bottles so

8:12

the water bottle would have had

8:14

the are eyedrops and them her

8:17

convicted the convicted killer here who's

8:19

just been sentenced to life. Is

8:22

forty year old Jesse Protest gates

8:25

and this is a woman with

8:27

a history as you might recall

8:29

of defrauding people, forging documents and

8:32

so police say. The mode of here

8:34

with really clear. Is all about lends

8:36

money. For. And.

8:38

Especially when you start seeing how she's transferring

8:41

money to her own a car account. From

8:43

Lands and using Lynn's credit cards

8:45

Eastern to really see a picture

8:48

of. You. Know. And. And

8:50

C B then became the

8:52

beneficiary. Which. Was very interesting. One

8:54

family members were like wait a minute

8:56

who's this woman's even though she's a

8:58

family friend why see the beneficiary So

9:00

is a really served get very fishy.

9:03

Been. Very fishy so I'm a little

9:05

bit of background. here are Victim Lin

9:07

was a retard petition who loved animals

9:09

and she was very close with their

9:12

families. Are Lynn and just

9:14

see where family, friends and Jesse

9:16

stepped in. As. Lens

9:18

primary caretaker as her health

9:20

was declining. And apparently Lynn's mother

9:22

had been caretaker before and then

9:24

lends to go over so. In

9:28

others one story that's told him we

9:30

see this alive. So apparently this was

9:32

first viewed as either an accident or

9:34

suicide. Because when police

9:36

responded to the home. Of

9:38

this would have been a four fifty five. On

9:40

October third of Twenty Team again, how

9:42

long we've been covering this. Police.

9:45

Find. Lin. And.

9:48

Her recliner. she's unconscious but in

9:50

us in the in of just

9:52

sees. Not. Well

9:54

cross metics crushed medication

9:57

is found. On her body

9:59

along with. Wait containing other

10:01

crush medication It's Firefighters pronounced her

10:03

at the scene dad because they

10:06

said she hadn't been breathing and

10:08

it was just you. Called Nine

10:10

One One. But. Before she called,

10:12

my mom once called her mother. Or

10:15

minutes. A four

10:17

minute conversation while. We.

10:20

Have someone here who's not breathing. right?

10:23

Where's the focus here? Tracy? Where's

10:25

the focus on Be emergency. You.

10:28

Know. I.

10:30

Have been involved in a couple of cases

10:32

like this. Remember before I wasn't. A criminologist,

10:35

I was a social worker for the first

10:37

eight years. And I did some work with

10:39

elder abuse. Suit cases

10:41

like this I had seen now I

10:43

never work to keep that resulted in

10:46

death. They were. I'll fortunately the

10:48

victim was still alive, but

10:50

one of the things I

10:52

remember being very conscious of

10:54

is that the caretaker feals

10:57

this. Very.

10:59

Dichotomy of very kind of. Dual

11:01

role. First. Of all they feel

11:04

as though the fact that off as I've

11:06

seen as a that the family isn't actually

11:08

as presence of as they should be and

11:10

they're there for a day are laden with

11:12

all of the burden of of the care

11:14

taking. Which is odd because you were hired

11:16

as a caretaker of course. You are

11:18

responsible for this. But the thing.

11:21

That complicates it in the cases

11:23

that I personally witnessed was on

11:25

the fact that this skill set

11:27

of the caretaker is off than

11:29

ah. I'm not adequate for the

11:31

responsibilities that they're going to take

11:33

on and they are for and

11:35

this is. Not justification for murder.

11:37

This is none. justification for abuse.

11:39

The if and. I don't know

11:41

if the supplies in this instance but

11:43

on the idea of them that the

11:46

person feels very burden and overwhelmed and

11:48

somehow and titled for the behavior that

11:50

they exhibit with the individual that they

11:52

are charged to care for. So it

11:55

doesn't seem odd a character for somebody

11:57

who is engaging actively. An abusive

11:59

behavior. providing. Somebody

12:01

with toxic substances. in this case.

12:04

I'm cool. Intends to? perhaps?

12:07

we don't know. Perhaps the

12:09

intention was just to reduce

12:11

their lucidity so that they

12:13

could then obtain. More financial

12:15

control over the individual. And

12:18

then it. bad. And

12:20

so instead of calling the

12:22

police in it, or instead

12:24

of calling Nine One one

12:26

in this instance, they're calling

12:28

a family member to receive

12:30

some sort of support to

12:32

debrief, because perhaps he didn't

12:34

intend. To. Kill her She

12:37

just intended to. Incapacitate

12:41

her to the point where she to take

12:43

more advantage? I don't know. And of course

12:45

these are cases that are rare. Luckily

12:47

we don't have a lot of individuals

12:49

who are are murdered for substances by

12:52

a caretaker so we don't have a

12:54

lot of research studies for instance in

12:56

the next one on but have more

12:58

research for young. Men this one.

13:00

I you know the these are

13:02

individual cases that come up so

13:04

I'm speculating. but perhaps she felt

13:06

overwhelmed by the experience that she

13:09

was having. She was in a

13:11

situation, Perhaps he was over her

13:13

head in the air. is she's

13:15

engaged. An abusive behavior by giving

13:17

the in the the individual

13:19

in this case Lynn substances

13:21

and then she panicked when

13:23

I'm Lynn was unresponsive. Ah

13:25

again this is not excuse

13:27

her this. Does not justify her

13:29

actions. But. This. Is

13:32

perhaps explanation for why she calls her mother

13:34

instead of nine one one First. Is

13:36

it possible? You know

13:39

because a Jazzy has.

13:41

A history of forging documents

13:44

and getting I'm all sorts

13:46

of. Fraudulent. Loans

13:48

to collect money as

13:51

that. That

13:53

again, it was all part of a

13:55

pattern. And and

13:57

as you say, see may

13:59

not have intended to kill

14:01

her, she may have intended

14:03

to keep perks in this

14:05

ill state of declines. And

14:07

I see finally did die. Ah

14:10

I think. I. Think that

14:12

that's. I think that

14:14

that's possible, but at the end of

14:16

day you're playing Russian roulette here with

14:18

someone's life. And right of course of

14:21

course for arms down and in. As

14:23

you say, the fact that we can

14:25

establish his at just the has a

14:27

history of being a Connors com Hot

14:29

or is she has a history of

14:31

taking advantage of financial situations to her

14:33

benefit including. Her own including an old

14:35

wrestling offer, a mother a so. Sorry.

14:38

I'm so again, I don't know she

14:40

intended to kill her. Not a reasonable

14:42

person should assume that when you are

14:44

playing with substances. ah, I'm a huge

14:47

is one of the potential outcomes. His

14:49

desk. For clearly

14:51

her moral compass was like and been working

14:53

in a long time and and owning in

14:55

the wrong direction. right? Exactly.

14:58

So. Just he said that. Lynn.

15:00

This is what she tells the police who

15:03

sells you know what? She was becoming very

15:05

depressed shoes becoming despondent over the fact that

15:07

her health was failing mode could have been

15:09

sailing because someone was poisoning her to the

15:12

in addition to what else may have been

15:14

going on and or world. And

15:16

I see said that Lynn

15:19

was refusing right to take

15:21

her medication properly and instead

15:23

was abusing drugs like Xanax

15:26

right? So

15:28

ah, I'm. Jessie

15:31

also told police that Lynn was sick. Of.

15:33

The medical community not having answers. While

15:35

if you're not looking for tetra high

15:38

draw. The line poisoning exactly you might

15:40

identify. It's not like number one on

15:42

the list as the doctors going through

15:44

the checklist of what needs to be

15:47

that. Said She also said

15:49

that she was indeed wanting

15:51

to take her license yet.

15:54

Everyone else. In

15:57

Her in her Life in Linz

15:59

Life said. Linda. Didn't wanna

16:01

take her life. She was not suicidal.

16:03

Only one person said this. The person

16:05

who called nine, One one the person

16:07

who was there. The person first

16:09

called mother for four minutes before nine One one.

16:11

Shirt So ah I'm.

16:15

Asked or linz das. A

16:19

few other weird things happen which

16:21

made. The. Investigation. Go.

16:24

In a slightly different direction from the

16:26

Ah She proud just you know, died

16:28

on her own accidentally. It's now.

16:32

Here's what's really weird.

16:35

Jesse. And

16:37

her mom continue to

16:40

use. Things. That

16:42

belong to Lynn. They started

16:44

selling off her. Property like.

16:47

Or. They to be selling

16:50

her property. It's driving

16:52

around. In the

16:54

jeep that belonged to

16:56

Lynn. All. Of

16:58

this was intended for Lynn's nephew so I'd

17:00

be named. The Families Like women Who Are

17:02

These. To it. So

17:04

I'm. Been.

17:07

Things completely. Took another turn when they

17:10

got to the part of the. Will and

17:12

they realize that these beneficiary of

17:14

the well we're supposed to be

17:16

a relative and all the sudden

17:18

the beneficiary. Of the will. His

17:21

jersey? Sure. Where. Did she come

17:23

from right? And. That really

17:26

does change the investigation because the

17:28

entire seat was the less to

17:30

Jesse and that just did not

17:32

seem right to the family and

17:35

investigators. So. Bands the medical examiner

17:37

could conduct as an autopsy, they determined

17:39

that the woman died of the fatal

17:41

dose of. Tetra Hi draws.

17:44

Lean and that is the

17:46

main ingredient in eyedrops as

17:48

we discussed. It can slow down

17:50

your entire system and it can have

17:52

the effects of i the just feeling

17:54

really sick. for a long time or I

17:57

can slow down your system until you die.

17:59

Literally. The printing. To. That

18:02

this is why I have and

18:04

again this is total speculation. I've

18:06

ever interviewed Ah Jessi but this

18:09

is why I suspect that she

18:11

did not intend to kill for

18:13

a bit of is in Jesse

18:15

Saber to keep her alive and

18:17

keepers said she's using all of

18:19

her arm assets see is having

18:22

her bills paid. See it, you

18:24

aren't she? Ah, she does transfer

18:26

is it appears see forges the

18:28

will transfer as the will to

18:30

her name. But. He

18:32

is also opening up herself to. An

18:35

investigation when Lynn Die is

18:37

in that now you're you

18:39

could have an autopsy I

18:41

don't know I just feel

18:43

like it's either Jesse. Ah,

18:45

not agree Con

18:47

artist or. Obviously, we

18:49

know she has no moral compass,

18:51

but it wasn't Jesse's best interest

18:53

to keep Lynn alive and sick

18:56

because she's getting her financial needs

18:58

mess with out alerting. The Authorities

19:00

This is. So. That.

19:02

That's interesting. That's very interesting. That could

19:05

explain why she was just so adamant

19:07

in that to our you know speech

19:09

of hers that it was her a

19:11

wasn't her was an accident. You know

19:13

I do think that one can convince

19:15

themselves of I us. Lin.

19:18

Is dead in. This is indisputable.

19:20

But. From Jesse's point of view, she. Can be

19:22

like but it was an accident but it was

19:25

an accident and seeking St with. With.

19:27

I'm a belief. You

19:29

know, sometimes we see people who like really

19:31

believe a lot of their crap and they're

19:34

just like insane and they double down on

19:36

it, sir This? but based on your observations,

19:38

this could be a slightly. Different interpretation

19:40

of that. So on July ninth

19:43

of twenty nineteen officers executed a

19:45

search warrants at the home that

19:47

was shared by Jesse and her

19:49

boyfriend and that same day she

19:51

was arrested. And place on

19:54

probation and parole whole because

19:56

remember see had previous convictions

19:58

on I'm Fraud charges. Here

20:00

we go all over again. Server The next

20:02

ten days I'm. See was

20:05

interviewed. By police on six different

20:07

occasions and her story changed. as

20:10

things went along. So Jesse claim

20:12

that sea and land had never

20:14

really worked out. Of financial arrangement

20:16

for the woman for care. And

20:18

that Lin Wood gives us He.

20:20

Checks or credit cards to cover

20:22

car payments. For her and her mother as

20:25

a way of saying thank you for taking care

20:27

of me. See that to me. Is to

20:29

loosey goosey. Existence either.

20:34

Believable: A foul. Logical. Yeah

20:36

and again. Listen, I have six.

20:38

At this point in my career

20:40

I have seen you know as

20:42

much on sound decision making as

20:44

I have seen sound decision making,

20:46

so I can neither. I can't

20:49

refute that that is actually possible.

20:51

I have personally witnessed victims of

20:53

crime giving some individuals in their

20:55

lead that the people ends up

20:57

being the offender this kind of

20:59

latitude or way which ends up

21:01

coming back to harm them. Now,

21:03

this doesn't mean to say that

21:05

people. Shouldn't be good hearted and expect

21:08

the past and that the victim is

21:10

responsible for the outcome it says. I

21:12

did not conclusively say that that is

21:14

not plausible. I have seen cases in

21:17

which this actually has happened. Well.

21:20

As investigators continued their questioning,

21:22

then they asked, just seats?

21:24

Well how do you explain

21:26

the fact that. She.

21:28

Had so much. Petra I draw

21:30

saline in her system and Lin

21:32

said. Is. An excellent answer.

21:35

Or she was known as using

21:37

eyedrops excessively. Okay

21:39

issue. I mean, you'd have to

21:41

be boring potholes, Saying your

21:43

eyes, shirt, And what

21:45

we're talking about his ingesting it, sir,

21:47

right? So I see is being questioned

21:50

about this. Jesse says that

21:52

Linwood by. Eyedrops in

21:54

bulk. Bulk.

21:57

I know who buys I dropped some

21:59

folks and containing you know, buying at

22:01

least six bottles at a time. And.

22:05

Then she was very clear she said but

22:08

she never thought that. Limb would put the

22:10

bible of you know I drops in her mouth.

22:12

Full? of course not. I mean it's

22:14

just ate her story was not making

22:16

sense. He was trying. To come up with

22:18

an answer for the but see. Died.

22:21

For. Of eyedrop poisoning. Therefore, what

22:23

is? Your answer to this and

22:25

again sees his burying herself. And.

22:28

Then in another point at another point.

22:30

Okay. Jesse. Does not

22:32

yourself any favors. She tells the cops

22:34

will cease to drink devising with vodka.

22:37

Really? I

22:41

do know is also do we Ill?

22:43

This is one thing I wish I

22:46

could have seen the actual forensic report

22:48

on. Do we know that you know

22:50

how the how the substance was entering

22:52

the body? It's not, it's inclusive The

22:54

you have this information is it concludes

22:57

it's not coming through, administrated the dropped

22:59

to the I, It's definitely coming through

23:01

oral. On. Absorption There

23:03

was testimony that. This

23:05

had been. In just and

23:08

just as a birthday suit this

23:10

amount. of club would be

23:12

ingested and there was testimony

23:14

actually on both sides because

23:17

remember. Remember. Jesse

23:19

claiming? Oh yeah. See.

23:22

Started up with or vodka. Yeah.

23:24

Services that raises one more

23:27

so or less system mansion.

23:29

Let's just imagine for one

23:32

minute that the victims here

23:34

lynn his arm ingesting. The

23:37

substance I don't know why can't say

23:39

setup for hydroxyl him to sign it

23:42

draws a lead on with vodka. Let

23:44

us imagine that this is what's happening.

23:46

We've all seen that show of like

23:48

my strange addiction people. Do people

23:51

do strange things? They

23:53

ingest substances? Okay,

23:55

well Jesse, your her caretaker. Why

23:57

you leaking to the doctor about

23:59

that? Why aren't you

24:01

intervening wire to telling the family

24:03

member that she has a substance

24:05

issue which is dangerous. Rights So.

24:09

At the very worst, this is

24:11

intentional homicide. At the very least,

24:13

this is mixed with that led

24:16

to hum that lead to death.

24:18

So I do think she's culpable

24:20

regardless. Bomb as if she assumed

24:22

the role of caretaker and she

24:25

watched some one engaging in highly

24:27

dangerous behavior without intervention. As the

24:29

very least, you are responsible for

24:32

manslaughter like egregious neglect. So

24:34

there is that part of it. right?

24:36

There fact that Jesse saying Lin

24:39

wanted to and for life and

24:41

that she was using it by

24:43

ingesting it's the eye drops and

24:46

mixing Rebekah with it. And then

24:48

there's the other part of the

24:50

investigations which is the financial fraud

24:53

part of the investigations. and looking

24:55

at us these soaks detectors at

24:57

the time com uncover some debts.

25:00

That. Chassis. And. Her

25:03

boyfriend half from a local

25:05

bingo casino and according to

25:07

the casino. Jesse.

25:10

And her boyfriend. Owed.

25:13

Forty. Thousand Dollars. They had lost

25:15

Forty thousand dollars. Gambling. That is

25:18

a lot of money. So.

25:21

They were banned from the

25:23

casino. And of course they

25:25

add some serious deaths Jesse's. Mother

25:27

Jennifer also told authorities that she

25:30

has been a victim of. Her

25:32

own daughter's fraudulent schemes. See

25:34

sad that chassis allegedly stole personal

25:36

checks of her mother's along with

25:38

their mothers identification and the title

25:40

to work are. And

25:43

that this information was all

25:45

used to obtain loans without

25:48

the mothers consent. So there

25:50

is a clear pattern here

25:52

worth of Jesse taking advantage

25:54

of every one inner life.

25:57

right? right? right? Again,

26:00

I'm trying to offer like a range

26:02

of explanations because this is that you

26:04

know a crime like this that is

26:06

so particular and again, I don't have

26:08

any research to be able to say.

26:10

Well and ninety percent of crimes were

26:12

caretakers. Poison to death there yet it

26:14

on my is so I have to

26:16

rely on what could be plausible. So

26:19

it's either way, you're talking

26:21

about an individual with a

26:23

history of taking advantage of

26:25

people whose enough who accepts

26:27

the position of caretaking, who

26:29

at the very least is

26:31

negligent in intervening in dangerous

26:33

behavior at the very first

26:36

it is on a actually

26:38

doing the poisoning and somewhere

26:40

in the mental isn't maybe

26:42

somehow encouraging. The behavior. And

26:44

passively standing by. Either way we are

26:47

culpability and we also have an individual

26:49

who has fi of was a financial

26:51

gain at the end of the day

26:54

giving you motive. A. Lot a

26:56

lot of financial gain because police

26:58

say that she wrote checks in

27:01

Linz name to just see right

27:03

my gorging them into her own

27:05

bank account so that was an

27:07

easy one to trace. So between

27:09

the transfer of money from. Ah,

27:13

I'm Linda. Count to Jesse's

27:15

pluses: The credit cards that she used

27:17

sir, it's at least three hundred thousand

27:19

dollars. While Qaeda by most. Significant

27:21

amount of money, so there's your

27:24

modem. So juicy Trial began October

27:26

twenty fourth, Twenty twenty three, and

27:28

the state's case was pretty clear.

27:31

Jesse. Taken advantage of an elderly

27:33

friend for her own financial gain

27:35

strength. So her defense was.

27:38

That. Lin was suicidal. shit

27:40

taken realize. That. It

27:42

was either suicide or accidents. On

27:45

Linz behalf of her own

27:48

doing so on November fourteenth.

27:50

I'm twenty twenty three. Jurors:

27:54

Convicted just the of first degree

27:56

intentional homicide. It's best of movable

27:58

property over one. The thousand dollars.

28:01

And theft of movable property between

28:03

ten thousand and one hundred thousand

28:05

dollars, right? Very specific charges to

28:07

the area Here it's Michigan law.

28:09

So then on sentencing date which

28:12

was reset April fifth, Jesse

28:14

have a lot to say in her. Own

28:17

defense see it took. Two.

28:20

Hours. It's.

28:22

Excruciating to listen to these. Two hours,

28:24

But you know what? It's. It's

28:27

the defendants life and if you've had

28:30

a trial and every one. Is been

28:32

speaking. And saying things about

28:34

you and this is your chance. To say

28:36

we have to say I suppose you should

28:38

take all the time that you want, but

28:41

it was excruciating Sued written it down and

28:43

she was reading from a yellow pad. her

28:45

hands, you know, handcuff. So she's

28:47

like changing rages, moving pages,

28:51

Issues pretty stoked through most of his

28:53

and then was emotional at one part

28:55

or going to play that's, but really

28:57

she blamed every. And see, stuck

28:59

to her story so. Here

29:02

is Jesse. And.

29:05

Our own words talking to the court.

29:07

It is a lot to be accused and. Convicted

29:09

of murder financing do with. It

29:13

will bring her back any

29:15

will meet her life any

29:17

easier. Your father be responsible

29:19

for what seems to refer

29:21

decisions, her choices, her absence

29:23

and no one else has.

29:25

To me, tracy, that

29:27

one hurt. Or.

29:29

Just he says. but this meaning

29:31

convicting. Her and setting and or prison isn't gonna

29:34

bring her back. Oh

29:36

my gosh, it's like this is what

29:38

we talk about when we talk about

29:40

the Justice. And

29:43

and this is where against the cases

29:45

and is somewhat of an anomaly. I'm

29:47

in the fact that we actually have

29:49

the death many people engage. In fraud,

29:52

fraudulent behavior to take other people's money.

29:54

luckily most of it doesn't. And

29:56

to death. But here's the piece

29:58

that is most fascinate. For me

30:00

as a criminologist, still get up this

30:03

kind of reasoning. Is.

30:05

Somewhat typical for perpetrators but

30:07

I also find it event

30:09

typical arm among students said

30:11

a teach and not the

30:13

field and I get a

30:15

lot of questions about what

30:17

is the purpose of punishment

30:19

right and so we have

30:21

to understand the purpose. Of punishment

30:24

ten have a lot of the it. could

30:26

be too full, could be three full of

30:28

course. It is a first and

30:30

foremost managed to. That. For

30:32

the state in our country in a

30:34

democracy to address the wrong doing that

30:36

occurred to one of their cities to

30:39

one of. Our citizens. It's also

30:41

to hold people accountable for

30:43

behavior to both detour. Them

30:45

computer bad actions, but to deter

30:47

the general public from engaging in

30:50

similar bad actions is called general

30:52

deterrence and enough. Finally, some kind

30:54

of punishment is also to bring

30:56

justice to the victim. Now. Yourself

31:00

focuses on that. Third point. A lot.

31:02

We want justice for the victim. I

31:05

really hope you're viewing audience understands

31:08

that that is a cursory or

31:10

secondary consideration. The marriage and Criminal

31:12

justice system was not built on

31:15

a system that tries to bring

31:17

justice to the victim. The

31:20

and that kind of might have been. that's

31:22

exactly my thing I see all star. Justice

31:24

System needs some fine. Tuning.

31:27

Of tanks. To have a

31:29

little bit more considerations for

31:32

the victim injustice. While still,

31:34

obviously you know the tenants

31:36

of our justice system about

31:38

innocent until proven guilty. I

31:40

get that right. But

31:43

even punishment in our system is

31:45

really with where the United States

31:48

word democracy. Punishment. They are

31:50

for is focused on on.

31:53

The offender. Night. And

31:55

the that's why sometimes people don't like it,

31:57

but the offender has way more rights. The

32:00

trial than the victim become an

32:02

absolute as as the. Even though

32:04

I as somebody who works primarily

32:06

with victims in does risk research

32:08

based on victims, I understand why

32:10

this criminal justice system focuses on

32:12

the offenders rights more because they're

32:15

going to lose liberty. Or.

32:17

They're going to lose light skinned

32:19

rare instances. and in those instances,

32:21

that's where we are constitutional. Issue of:

32:23

you're going to deprive somebody of liberty in a

32:25

democracy. You better be sure that the

32:27

facts of the case or in

32:29

order. But so that's why I'm

32:31

here. In some ways I think

32:33

that this Jesse is. I.

32:37

Don't want to use a pejorative

32:39

term for see the ignorance right

32:41

to the facts of hello just

32:43

seats we're here to bring back

32:46

during lean back to life where

32:48

a whole here to hold you

32:50

accountable for an egregious act both

32:52

because you are that his punishment

32:54

is fitting in this instance for

32:56

you as an individual and also

32:58

to send a social message that

33:00

this behavior is not tolerated. And.

33:02

Then thirdly, sure Again, I'm sorry that

33:04

it's Third, I know you don't like

33:06

it, Anna, I'd like it's But yes,

33:08

and I'm in some way to bring

33:11

about some level. Of justice for the victim

33:13

here. Yeah well

33:15

Ah Van after her two hours

33:17

it was. the judges turn right

33:19

and you know sometimes judges will

33:22

have a common. I always find

33:24

the judges comments always for me

33:26

among the most fascinating of the

33:29

process. It's because you're waiting to

33:31

hear. What they're going to

33:33

say about What's your Cia inspired?

33:35

And. There they will. Issue

33:38

the sentence, Know. They

33:41

aren't necessarily have to explain

33:43

themselves. sometimes they do. This

33:45

judge really wanted to have

33:47

a conversation. With.

33:49

The public. Yeah

33:51

and. The. Wanted everyone

33:53

to understand what she. Had seen

33:55

and witness and why's he was

33:58

going to sentence as. He

34:00

did so. Ah, I'm.

34:04

A simple judge really? do the alleged

34:06

say I want you to listen here

34:08

because at one point. I

34:10

just see, does. Interrupt the

34:12

judge and the church does

34:14

not like that and she

34:16

snaps back understandably. I saw

34:19

everything. Has

34:21

to ask out loud. In

34:24

a rhetorical question, that reason poisoning.

34:27

Leave. Who knew. All. Following

34:30

you. Release. From. Prison.

34:34

No, I'm not asking for a name for this

34:36

is my time. To Do

34:38

Not interrupt me. She

34:42

got markedly sicker. Following

34:45

your real. Person in her life

34:47

and a daily basis, ultimately ending

34:49

up in hospital. In

34:52

September of Twenty eight, T. Unexplained.

34:58

Couldn't figure out what was going on, but

35:00

what do we know? She got better. What?

35:04

Could not have been happening in

35:06

the hospital. Someone

35:09

poisoning her with th to the.

35:12

I. Have to say I mean that moment

35:14

that the judges like. Do

35:17

Not interrupt me Rec. Do.

35:20

Not interrupt me. This is my

35:22

time. You

35:24

know what? sometimes. How

35:27

can I put this? It's like. This

35:29

woman who just went on for two hours really

35:31

they need to be put in your place in

35:33

are just shut up now and or listen to

35:36

why you're here and why you can spend the

35:38

rest your life in prison. This

35:40

is a clear to stay of two things he. Have that

35:42

right. You have a judge who is responsible

35:45

for the court. And delivering the opinion of

35:47

the court. But we have accepted

35:49

in our criminal justice. System that the

35:51

judge is actually particularly heinous. Cases

35:53

can also deliver like a moral

35:55

argument to that the to the

35:58

Perpetrator I'm in which the. Get

36:00

the. Judges? Human. Can you

36:03

imagine sitting for two hours

36:05

listening respectfully, To somebody go on

36:07

and on Failing to be accountable

36:09

for anything never. I mean it

36:11

and never mind if if you

36:13

don't We the. But. Death was

36:16

accidental. About all the money

36:18

that to talk. How about

36:20

all of your failure to

36:22

intervene? I ain't worried in

36:24

this situation and them. So

36:26

the George response. Both I think as

36:28

a judge and as a human being would

36:30

you shut up? I'm tired of this out

36:32

and also. On the Judge

36:34

a. Role. To play not just in

36:36

your sentencing, but to deliver the opinion. Of

36:39

the court which includes my

36:41

opinion on your morality. Absolutely.

36:46

Cel. Chassis was sentenced to

36:48

life in prison with the possibility of

36:50

parole. After forty years, this is going

36:53

to be in her eighties. Ah a

36:55

best when she is eligible for parole.

36:58

The church also called her.

37:02

Diabolical. Here

37:04

which. Is Chris Huhne of

37:06

my favorite words and descriptors for

37:08

much of what we talk about

37:10

here. But yeah, Diabolical.

37:13

In a slowly kill someone. Yeah.

37:17

And really as so. in addition to

37:19

the jail time, Jesse was ordered to

37:21

pay three hundred and eighty thousand dollars

37:23

and must to send an an additional

37:25

sixteen thousand dollars for the expenses of

37:27

the. State witnesses. At.

37:29

The trial. On.

37:33

Of those, likelihood. That she's saying

37:35

that is a less than one

37:37

percent some admin and yes, but these

37:40

are all send arm kind of

37:42

ceremony. A whole or on good

37:44

space. Our efforts by the court.

37:46

To send a message to the perpetrator

37:49

and the community that you're going to

37:51

be. Responsible and more than one where you're

37:53

going to lose your liberty. And you

37:55

do have, at least in theory, because in

37:57

practice it's unrealistic. But at least and. Eerie,

38:00

you do need to pay restitution to the

38:02

core and to the family. And

38:05

of the judge reminded her

38:07

that she could not. Financially.

38:10

Gain from the telling of her story I

38:12

would think about is already a law in

38:15

Michigan so said I guess just a reminder.

38:17

And one of these, like Missy, If you think you're

38:19

going to make any money by telling your story, right?

38:22

Let me remind you, you will Not. So.

38:26

Ah just you know what

38:28

the when these cases end?

38:30

When. There's in we talk about this

38:33

and you know families use words

38:35

like some families. And

38:37

say that there's closer other family say

38:39

you know it's just I am. Is.

38:42

It really. Closure. We. Still was

38:45

lost or a loved one? This

38:47

one's going to prison but she

38:49

hasn't even apologized. But of an

38:51

apology is gonna make anything better.

38:53

but it's just. It's

38:55

a sad. Is it is

38:58

sad there's no bringing Limbaugh is nothing

39:00

Elon back and Nic to. A

39:02

cigarette in this case that he's also

39:04

bring up one. Other. Point: You know this

39:06

is a case, right? So we're looking at the

39:08

individual. Level analysis of what

39:10

went on on his. Between.

39:13

Jesse and Live But that linked to the

39:15

kind of. The. The process

39:17

though the person and me that processes

39:19

information on the aggregate up the macro

39:21

level. I'm concerned that not just from

39:23

this T. Southern. Talking about this for about

39:25

five or six years that we're going to

39:27

see increase. Increase in

39:30

cases like this. but I do hope

39:32

that you and your audience starts to

39:34

think about what is this gonna mean

39:36

for chair for or aging society. Do

39:38

we have attics with people? Do we

39:41

have adequate provisions? I'm I'm worried that

39:43

these kind of cases are going to

39:45

increase. I think you're right to

39:47

worry. Call.

39:50

From Mom. Answer it. Call.

39:52

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40:25

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40:27

and vs the media. This is

40:29

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40:33

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in. shopify.com/Odyssey podcast. Mary

42:13

and Barbara and Lawrence Moroney. Moroney

42:15

and Barbara who both ran

42:18

like they were like somebody was chasing them.

42:20

Like there was a T-Rex was chasing them

42:22

and anything in their way, they were going

42:25

to smack you out of the way, they

42:27

were going to step on your neck, and

42:29

they were going to keep going until something

42:31

stopped them. And you're talking about short careers

42:34

generally. You're just, it's, there

42:36

isn't a lot of self-preservation involved except

42:39

the one time Mary and Barbara ran

42:41

out of bounds. The one time he

42:43

did. Let's not talk about that, Dan. Can we not

42:45

talk? Like I just got chills and that gets me

42:47

upset every time we talk. Now,

42:51

even though this murder occurred

42:53

in England, a wanted to

42:55

cover it, sometimes we do

42:57

cover international. it's crimes for

42:59

a lot of reasons. This

43:01

one I found fascinating because

43:03

it really shows how we're

43:05

not the only country in

43:07

the only justice system since

43:09

that is grappling with his

43:11

challenge with what to do.

43:13

With repeat offenders threat.

43:15

I believe that there are some

43:18

people. Who. Can not

43:20

be rehabilitated and can

43:22

not be put. Outside.

43:25

With people that must be locked up for

43:27

the rest of their lives but the laws

43:29

don't know is aligned with keeping someone in

43:32

for the rest of their lives. Ah,

43:35

until they do something. That.

43:37

They finally are. He put

43:39

away. For. Life. But here's the

43:42

problem. In order to reach that level,

43:44

a life has to be taken. Sure,

43:46

Sure, And you

43:49

know again one of the things

43:51

we we we study and criminology

43:53

is to what extent are people.

43:55

Are unable to be rehabilitated. it

43:57

is a small percentage. Fortunately, it's.

44:00

Small percentage, but they do exist. The problem? I

44:02

don't know if you want me to get into

44:04

this now are. You want to talk a little bit about. The

44:06

case with them that the piece

44:08

that I honed in on was

44:11

this classification of medium risk vs

44:13

high risk vs do you want

44:15

to give some or so hear

44:17

ya And Tracy's really hit hit

44:19

it on the nail on the

44:21

head here because how he was

44:24

classified as either. As. Medium

44:26

as opposed to a high risk. Really?

44:29

Had implications for how he would be

44:31

supervised sense now he would be released.

44:33

Been going to make an argument that

44:36

even as a high risk offender, he

44:38

was still going to step out and

44:40

do exactly what he wanted to do.

44:42

and we're going to get into that.

44:44

but I think you're right that that

44:46

does that. They are so many flaws

44:48

here in the reason we're still discussing

44:50

this case if that happened a few

44:53

years ago is because the family has

44:55

pressed the government and the justice system

44:57

to be held accountable and investigations. Are

44:59

still going on to figure out where the system

45:01

failed? Will you know what? Let me tell you

45:03

something, save a few bucks here. Let me tell

45:05

you where you failed to sit and never released

45:08

the guys and you don't need to be. You

45:10

know a P D or a

45:12

research scientist to know that that

45:14

is where the system for sales

45:16

and and I'm sorry you know.

45:19

But. That's the first level so. Let's

45:22

let's talk a little bit about the

45:24

case and then Tracy, you can explain

45:26

to us the difference in how he

45:28

was classified. So. The

45:30

victim here is thirty five year

45:32

old, the Xsara Alina. She had

45:35

recently graduated from law school she

45:37

was working on becoming. A lawyer

45:39

see. Had recently been

45:41

admitted to the solicitors.

45:44

Role which. Is kind of are equivalent

45:46

to the bar. You know, You.

45:49

Get accepted and then you're ready to go. And

45:51

that is where. She was in her life.

45:54

The convicted killer here is Jordan. Mcsweeney

45:56

had a lengthy criminal background

45:58

By the time Zar as.

46:01

Murder. He. Had twenty

46:03

eight convictions for sixty nine

46:05

crimes dating back to two

46:08

thousand and six burglary, vehicle

46:10

sapped, assault on police, battery

46:12

assaulting, causing bodily harm, and

46:15

he had been released from

46:17

custody nine days before the

46:19

murder. And despite his

46:22

criminal history, he was classified

46:24

as a medium risk offenders.

46:27

Okay Tracy, what? what? What would

46:29

have been the big difference here

46:31

between. My name and high risk as far

46:33

as how he would have been supervised. Well.

46:36

Before I do that I think I

46:39

need to explain may be to your

46:41

audience what how we even determined risk

46:43

may be like. Think a lot of

46:45

people in the general public think that

46:48

risk assessment or risk evaluation as we

46:50

call it is an exact science. It

46:52

is and I've actually written on this

46:55

so. Something. And I'm excited soccer

46:57

though. So just let's keep in

46:59

mind that risk assessment and most

47:01

of my research comes in risk

47:03

assessment for domestic violence, not in

47:05

general violence that's usually have a

47:07

criminal justice more the realm of

47:09

psychologist. but I've done. I've

47:11

what I've worked with psychologist Sonic

47:13

understanding as process. So risk assessment

47:15

is a decision making process in

47:17

which you determine or estimate or

47:20

identify or quantify risk. Okay, you

47:22

can imagine right then in there

47:24

that's gonna be difficult Rice Anyone

47:26

who's had a child or was

47:28

at care taking responsibility for your

47:30

kid, fall down, scrapes, their knee.

47:32

oh that's a rescue. didn't identify

47:35

some risks, were willing to accept

47:37

as it as a general public.

47:39

Bank the kids mates and A as part of growing

47:41

up. Other words were

47:43

not willing to accept. Like an

47:45

individual with sixty nine, prior crimes

47:47

are getting out. And committing murder nine

47:49

days later. However, you have to understand what's

47:52

going on with this process. So

47:54

we generally distinguish armed. There's two

47:56

types of risk assessments. One. Of

47:58

the clinical assessment. And if it

48:00

in the Us but it a england has a very. Similar

48:03

system. Arm and

48:05

then there are actuarial assessments.

48:07

the clinical assessment in individuals

48:10

meeting with usually a forensic

48:12

psychologist. Definitely a clinical psychologist.

48:14

They're being put through on the

48:17

series of questions. And examples to

48:19

determine their potential risk for violence

48:21

to self or others. Now that's

48:23

gonna happen over the period of

48:26

I'm weeks, but more so months

48:28

you're meeting with the same individual.

48:30

Going through these. Clinical Assessments:

48:33

Okay. To

48:35

were real Assessments are where you're

48:37

using instruments to determine likelihood of

48:39

risk. I've. Done a lot

48:42

of this work. For instance, with

48:44

the lethality assessment on protocol. It's

48:46

an assessment to determine victims of

48:48

domestic violence, risk of being murdered.

48:50

So where are they are at

48:53

risk for some sort of low

48:55

level violence still terrible vs where

48:57

they at risk for lethality. Ah.

49:00

The actuarial evaluations take into consideration

49:02

data that we have from analyzing

49:04

previous homicides or warm or previous

49:07

high levels use of violence of

49:09

a predatory rate for example, and

49:11

we take a look at what

49:13

factors were present in those cases

49:16

and then we create an actuarial

49:18

list. Oh, for instance, with homicide

49:20

you know is there a gone

49:22

present in the home to the

49:25

individual have a past history of

49:27

using violence? Ah has the individual.

49:29

Threatened violence to this particular victim

49:32

or another victim Once you get

49:34

enough check marks on this actuarial

49:36

lest we that I deem you

49:38

as a risk low, medium or

49:41

high. So now that so I

49:43

think it kind of see these

49:45

are not exact sciences. The now

49:47

they're not you might call assessment.

49:50

it's does the one person you're

49:52

interacting with deem you to be

49:54

a threat. One of the things

49:57

I came to learn working with

49:59

psychologists. Who. I went violence. In general,

50:01

noxious domestic violence was listen were

50:03

in settings in which everyone's violence.

50:07

And there for you're asking us to

50:09

determine some level of violence. So perhaps

50:11

this and I'm not saying this happened

50:13

in the case button him years the

50:15

for instance. Perhaps in this case this

50:18

individuals. Being deemed medium. Because

50:22

there's also people. Being deemed hi

50:24

who have done even more heinous, more

50:26

egregious thinks? I'm not saying that happens

50:28

current, but it's a possibility. Second of

50:31

all, if the individual was deemed medium,

50:33

Risk versus hire us because

50:35

they received an actuarial assessment

50:37

they might have heard for,

50:39

but not a indicators of.

50:41

Potential violence? So this is not

50:43

in any way inexact science know

50:46

and I don't think anyone you

50:48

know we're dealing with human beings.

50:50

In human behavior and indices,

50:52

you cannot always measuring predict

50:54

these things. Six Mom My

50:56

arguments here Tracy is. I.

50:59

Think he wouldn't have really

51:01

mattered that much. Between.

51:04

Medium a high risk based on

51:06

what I read because the difference

51:09

as I understand it, there would

51:11

have been hired, he'd been deemed

51:13

high risk. He then would have

51:16

had to stay in what's called

51:18

a probation. Hostile says some cooks,

51:20

some kind of. You know,

51:22

housing there was a little bit

51:25

more restrictive and then he'd have

51:27

to cheer to a curfew. And

51:29

where are you know when ankle

51:31

monitor. A Gps Munger. Skiers.

51:34

Where I think. That still wouldn't have

51:36

been enough in this case

51:38

because what this guy did

51:40

according to the London Police

51:43

was. He never

51:45

even went to his first. Probation meaning

51:47

soon like Britain either.

51:49

Thought he was done, he was

51:51

out and he wasn't going to

51:53

follow the rule. and because it

51:55

bureaucracy and because it takes time

51:57

by the time he doesn't show

51:59

up. Then they're trying to locate him

52:01

and then the issue something that's the

52:03

equivalent to an arrest warrants. It's too.

52:05

Late to because of aura is

52:07

dead. Sure, So. My.

52:10

Argument on this one is. Maybe.

52:13

They would have noticed that he wasn't

52:15

as be you know offenders, hostile or

52:17

whatever their hotel is and that he

52:19

didn't check ins and so maybe they

52:22

would have been on the lookout for

52:24

him a little sooner. But. Then

52:26

they claimed they still couldn't find them

52:28

And it, You know what I'm saying.

52:31

You know that would have ended it.

52:33

I hear what you're saying. this individual

52:35

seems to have predatory violent tendencies of

52:37

the end and your argument is. Whether

52:40

he was released under medium

52:42

supervision, others as a medium

52:44

risk offender or under high

52:46

risk supervision, the fact remains

52:48

that this individual i'm probably

52:50

was already hell bent on

52:52

engaging in some violent act

52:54

On a list of what

52:56

you're saying is completely plausible

52:58

and in this case unfortunately,

53:00

it's that ah, I'm so

53:02

skill for again For me,

53:04

looking at it from the

53:06

system. Perspective. It's. We. Want

53:09

to reduce? The the potential risk

53:11

risk assessments are not an exact science

53:13

yet. But we also and I'm

53:15

gonna are no points with your audience

53:18

here. You know where there

53:20

were no very interesting place. Keep in

53:22

mind the modern criminal justice system is

53:24

about one hundred years. Old we've

53:26

been studying. Human behavior for thousands

53:29

of years? So where is a

53:31

very inexact science at this point?

53:33

But here's what I'm going to

53:35

say. We have to decide in

53:37

a democratic society. Do.

53:39

You want to? Any

53:42

one A do you want to

53:44

hold imprisoned in implore you know

53:47

in Korean A A facility. Anyone

53:49

who shows any potential risk. They.

53:52

Are for resulting in. All.

53:54

Her incarceration of individuals who actually

53:57

would not have engaged in Byland

53:59

be. The beer. Or.

54:02

Do you want to? Let.

54:04

A few people out who engage in violent.

54:06

Behavior to ah reduce the

54:09

likelihood that you're holding on

54:11

necessarily people who are truly

54:13

rehabilitated. Unfortunately, I think

54:15

those are two. I'd.

54:17

That's where we are and you don't like it.

54:19

I don't like, don't know, They're very much choice

54:22

as I have seen. don't agree with you he

54:24

says I agree with these and that's why it's

54:26

not a win win. It's all know that this

54:28

point. that's why I so wanted to have this

54:31

conversation about this case because it really. Forces

54:33

us to us to think and

54:35

make decisions about. What

54:37

we think is justice and

54:40

despair here. you know? Because

54:42

sometimes there are people that no matter

54:44

how many times you tell them no,

54:47

the only thing that works with them

54:49

is literally behind bars. Now Is it

54:51

possible? Is it possible that as if

54:53

he had been labeled high risk and

54:55

that he hadn't made. It home and

54:58

blew his curfew from the residential

55:00

facility it may be there was

55:02

more supervision spent. Maybe they would have

55:04

acted more quickly. It's I think that that

55:06

is. Possible. I think

55:08

that that is possible, but his blowing off

55:10

his probation hearings also tipped off the police

55:12

that it was time to get started and

55:15

and start looking for the man's And then

55:17

there's another land to that surf. First you

55:19

have the immediate question as I said at

55:21

the beginning and the podcasts once said this

55:23

guy ever have been let out. Okay,

55:26

So. You. Have that whole.

55:28

Series of factors that

55:30

you must. Evaluate. And

55:32

then there's the fact that London,

55:35

certainly in this part of town,

55:37

has. Security cameras. On

55:40

the streets And that they

55:42

are monitored by people, right?

55:45

By. Different council districts to keep the

55:47

streets safe. And.

55:50

Here. We have a man between midnight

55:52

and to and we're going to show

55:54

you this video where he's going to

55:56

win in right and yet. Nowhere.

56:00

In this time period because Xsara

56:02

wasn't till till after to. The

56:04

I. Did. Anyone

56:06

connect the dots and say. How.

56:09

Do you look at a man who looks like he's. Drunk

56:11

and he swaying and he's chasing

56:13

women. Do you think he's just

56:15

a drunkard who can't. Do any

56:17

harm or do you not know

56:20

he's a recent parolees with a

56:22

violent past month intoxication of lack

56:24

of a stop him from committing

56:26

a crime. I mean. The

56:29

the things that this man did.

56:31

there was a few standing outside

56:33

a restaurant watching the woman and

56:35

masturbating on the streets. This this

56:37

this went on for hours and

56:39

he wasn't stopped. So this raises

56:41

the question for all of us

56:43

as a society. You. Know:

56:45

the penal system, the justice

56:47

system, the security system, the

56:50

police system, Failure.

56:53

Across the board. Failure.

56:55

Failure. Failure. Of let's

56:57

get in plus get into the details and

56:59

then stressing gonna ask. you more about

57:01

you know the the that the

57:03

different parts of this. Man,

57:07

this is just unbelievable. So

57:09

he was released in June.

57:11

Seventeen June Seventeen. Of Twenty

57:13

Twenty two? Okay, and as

57:15

we said, he blew off

57:17

his parole meetings. And then by

57:20

the twenty fourth. There. Was the equivalent

57:22

to a warrant issued for his arrest and then

57:24

within. The next thirty six hours the

57:26

man goes on the reign of terror

57:28

and this is when women are being

57:30

stopped and finally one is murdered. So

57:32

much of this is captured on camera

57:35

and and so you all the surveillance

57:37

video because this is why it's so

57:39

chilling you watching. These. Women

57:41

were running for their lives

57:44

spread. Your. You're seeing the

57:46

precursor to the ultimate. Act

57:48

of Violence. Yeah. I'm I'm just

57:51

gonna say this: There isn't a woman out

57:53

there who's listening to this and I'm sure

57:55

a lot of men as well who know

57:57

exactly what that fear. Is when you find

57:59

yourself. The dark space late at

58:01

night, you know, especially when you're younger

58:04

and all the sudden you're scared and

58:06

and you're being followed in you're running

58:08

Right now. everyone has experience this. Okay,

58:10

this chilling said it's It's just unbelievable.

58:13

So takes place between June Twenty Fifth.

58:15

In June. Twenty Six of Twenty Twenty

58:17

Two. And you see, This man

58:20

prowling and looking for a

58:22

victim now. right? After midnight,

58:24

he'd been kicked out of a bar. For.

58:26

Harassing women, sexually harassing

58:29

them and. Go reading them.

58:31

Circuitry seats so very. Have a

58:33

man whose kicked out for this inappropriate.

58:35

Behavior. right? A question is.

58:38

Is that something? That should have had

58:40

a phone call to the cops. I don't know. Certainly.

58:43

That helped. Is it right? Hindsight

58:45

is twenty twenty. Isn't that what

58:47

they say? I'm really difficult things.

58:49

The average person is probably looking

58:51

at him as an annoyance and

58:53

not rides as though he. Yeah,

58:55

yeah. and so this again when

58:57

we look at cases, You. Know

59:00

in the rearview mirror it's easy

59:02

to see all of the places

59:04

that we would have intervened, but

59:06

the average person is not making

59:09

these assessments of at all and

59:11

obviously the average person does not

59:13

know who this individual is. They

59:15

have no idea that Jordan is

59:18

a convicted felon who has at

59:20

least a medium risk assessment applied

59:22

to him. The best

59:24

tested you really use

59:26

really really strips. report

59:28

their seeds, People see him

59:31

as an annoyance or threat. Was he

59:33

just another drunk. Guy who was

59:35

inappropriate or was he a killer?

59:37

right? Oh my gosh. Okay

59:40

so he's been kicked out of the barn.

59:42

You can see him on on these videos

59:44

where he swaying. You know he's not steady

59:46

on his feeds. we are, no other is

59:48

intoxicated, whatever. But he is not steady on

59:50

his feet. Now I want you to watch

59:53

this video. Those who you are watching. those

59:55

if you're listening and describe it to you.

59:57

So he's following this woman. Her face is

59:59

blurred. Out and he's after her

1:00:01

and she's accelerating her pace and seats

1:00:04

tries to get away from him from.

1:00:06

And. She darts into a grocery stores.

1:00:09

You can see all the fruit

1:00:11

and the produce on the sidewalk

1:00:13

and snow. She just walks between

1:00:15

the the produce and goes inside

1:00:17

and he follows her inside. spin

1:00:19

he comes out and he waits

1:00:21

outside she pauses wait to see

1:00:23

like is it safe for me

1:00:25

to go see runs out. Any

1:00:28

follows or thank god she's faster than

1:00:30

him and she manages to get home

1:00:32

safely. She loses and somewhere okay. Now.

1:00:35

Let's get. To. The next victim.

1:00:39

There's a woman walking on one side

1:00:41

of the he's on on. His

1:00:43

side and see is accelerating

1:00:46

her pace because she's worried

1:00:48

about. Skyn. A bad

1:00:50

vibe from this guy is following and

1:00:52

there are even other witnesses on the

1:00:54

street who are watching this and our

1:00:57

panelists crossing the street to the other

1:00:59

side thinking maybe this woman might be

1:01:01

in trouble, see manages to accelerate her

1:01:03

pace fast. Enough where she.

1:01:06

Manages. To get homes and don't

1:01:08

forget the since in a when

1:01:10

the man standing outside of a

1:01:12

chicken restaurant masturbating not seeing. A

1:01:14

woman? Eat. That.

1:01:16

Alone should have been a call to the

1:01:19

police. This is

1:01:21

a product of the world we live

1:01:23

in in which people behave badly especially

1:01:25

late at night related to drinking and

1:01:27

we just think that this is obnoxious.

1:01:29

Behavior. And so this

1:01:31

is as much I think I'm

1:01:34

an example of missed opportunity by

1:01:36

our criminal justice system using called

1:01:38

caption cameras using into investigative tools

1:01:40

as it is a statement about

1:01:43

I'm. It okay.

1:01:45

He was just outside the chicken restaurant

1:01:47

masturbating. Not a big deal, doesn't raise

1:01:49

the kids. It's not enough of a

1:01:51

red flag to call the police. like.

1:01:54

What does that say about the society

1:01:56

in which we live in that this

1:01:58

doesn't hold wreaths? Miller. Have. A.

1:02:00

Police Intervention: A phone call

1:02:03

from a citizen. I. Remember

1:02:05

I was in high school and I was

1:02:07

at the library. I was at the library.

1:02:09

The Public Library. Not. The school libraries and

1:02:11

there was a man across the way

1:02:13

for me with a raincoat. I swear

1:02:16

to you and he flies to me.

1:02:18

I panicked I grabbed my books I'd

1:02:20

even say the library. I ran as

1:02:22

fast as I could our there I

1:02:24

was so scared and I know she

1:02:27

screamed but instead I was really scared

1:02:29

and there was a police officer outside

1:02:31

my brain to the police officers and

1:02:33

I sit him what the man had

1:02:35

done. And. The cops is

1:02:38

candlelight. I was what. May be fifteen,

1:02:40

sixteen years old and he's looking at

1:02:42

me, finds a story kind of funny

1:02:44

and unlike i've got a library or

1:02:46

you know, I'm panicked and I'm running for

1:02:48

my life. I just want to get home. And.

1:02:51

The cop is a slight. Kind. Of mining

1:02:53

it like com ago because it is

1:02:55

is masturbating later you know it. You

1:02:58

know? and it's so interesting. I was just talking

1:03:00

to a student who's looking to do have a

1:03:02

thesis. And a research project I.

1:03:05

I was asking students in my class

1:03:07

about how com and sexual harassment is

1:03:09

for their generation. Be to Some research

1:03:12

is emerging say that the cat calling

1:03:14

from the seventies, eighties and nineties

1:03:16

is reducing you. Know you walk by

1:03:18

a construction site. You walk by a group,

1:03:20

A man walked by a bar. And

1:03:22

the falling that we all and

1:03:24

dirt and it's is it looks

1:03:27

like it is reducing and when

1:03:29

I told some of my students

1:03:31

the is very similar story to

1:03:33

you have I'm having at least

1:03:35

two or three times between the

1:03:37

time I was ten, eleven and

1:03:39

sixteen years old having a man/himself

1:03:41

or masturbate. ah most of my

1:03:43

students were like where where you

1:03:45

live in A and I'm like

1:03:48

oh this is a pretty. Typical.

1:03:50

Seventies, eighties Nineties kind of

1:03:53

experience. I'd like to. Know

1:03:55

from your viewers who. Are younger

1:03:57

than thirty? If this is something.

1:04:00

That ever happened? I don't know. We can

1:04:02

ask them to put in the comments as

1:04:04

the researcher and me as wondering like. Is.

1:04:07

This reducing among the

1:04:09

population that the some

1:04:11

very bizarre stranger street

1:04:13

level of sexual harassment

1:04:15

including exposure and masturbation

1:04:17

is still a current.

1:04:19

Oh I think so. I think either a money.

1:04:21

This case says it. What Is it an

1:04:23

anomaly? I don't know. Ah my as so

1:04:26

often we are may be doing a public

1:04:28

library a public amazingly lifelike will of course

1:04:30

and have them in the public library because

1:04:32

everyone's allowed in this. You know what? I.

1:04:36

And. I was downstairs to the children's section

1:04:38

was upstairs. I remember that because again

1:04:40

I'm a young result doing my homework.

1:04:42

I just. He. Was both the

1:04:44

experience and then the police reaction? Sure,

1:04:46

the police racks and not enough. Perhaps

1:04:48

if I'd been older Mormons for I

1:04:50

would have gone to the librarian and

1:04:52

I should have screamed. Sort of. should

1:04:54

have done a sort of screamed, gone

1:04:56

to the Librarians But instead I panicked

1:04:58

and ran for my life. you know,

1:05:00

and let me reverse because the criminologist

1:05:02

kicked in as opposed to the former

1:05:04

victim advocate social worker. First of all,

1:05:06

I'm really sorry that that happened to

1:05:08

you Anna, and nobody should ever have

1:05:10

to experience that. And you deserved a

1:05:12

better response from. The Criminal Justice. System.

1:05:15

And don't please don't yourself

1:05:17

responsible for not screaming. For

1:05:20

just getting yourself out of there and into a

1:05:22

safe space. Often seen

1:05:24

of sometimes he has don't. You. Know:

1:05:27

snuffer, lean, fleeing. A dangerous

1:05:29

situation is a was very good. Luck

1:05:31

getting yourself out of a dangerous situation. Is

1:05:33

paramount. Anyway, we've taken a left turn

1:05:35

here. Speaking of of the of this

1:05:38

man, the let's let's get back to

1:05:40

it's Jordan. Mcsweeney here. so. We're

1:05:43

We're following him. You know? a

1:05:46

Cctv has captured. Him harassing these

1:05:48

two women very clearly chasing them

1:05:50

and they got away. Police

1:05:52

say that ultimately you know

1:05:55

he made five attempts in

1:05:57

this window. Where. He was

1:05:59

stalking. Women which raises the question.

1:06:01

I raised a little bit. Earlier

1:06:04

as like okay with if the whole

1:06:06

point of having these security systems is.

1:06:08

For peep is for safety

1:06:10

for people to monitor them

1:06:12

and try and save some

1:06:14

once be argument has been

1:06:16

made. That. Apparently.

1:06:19

You know people, Were out sick, they

1:06:22

were not as staff is the usually

1:06:24

are and that apparently it's one of

1:06:26

the people who was monitoring the cameras.

1:06:28

Acid is dealing. with another

1:06:30

situation involving another crime

1:06:33

victims. So. Not

1:06:35

a perfect system. At

1:06:38

once the I want to point

1:06:40

out about security systems is there

1:06:43

are some security systems that are

1:06:45

built to be preventative. For instance,

1:06:48

like a home security system is

1:06:50

other security systems that are reactive

1:06:52

that are meant to provide investigators

1:06:55

or the courts or police with

1:06:57

information to build the case. I

1:06:59

don't know if we're at the

1:07:02

point where I'm cctv called caption

1:07:04

television cameras. These are not cctv.

1:07:06

I'm. Sorry, there's another word for it, but

1:07:08

these, the camera. Systems that are being

1:07:11

used on the streets are actually

1:07:13

as a place where their preventative

1:07:15

or they're just for evidence collection

1:07:17

after a crime has occurred. I

1:07:19

want to say that on. As

1:07:22

and this is something I think that

1:07:24

in particular, you know, individuals under thirty

1:07:26

or kind of grappling? weird like that.

1:07:28

Bob. Gps. Or monetarists.

1:07:30

you know you can have your

1:07:32

friends location. Or your partner's Middle East and

1:07:34

on the phone. I think

1:07:37

a lot of individuals assume

1:07:39

technology is really useful for

1:07:41

preventing crime. I don't think.

1:07:43

Most I'm street cameras

1:07:46

or. Those. Be

1:07:48

put in sharing your location. Is

1:07:50

actually preventing crime? is my being?

1:07:52

you know to alert people may

1:07:54

be in real time. Something's not

1:07:57

right. Maybe. This big maybe?

1:08:00

After. All. Right, Left the bar. For.

1:08:02

Your friend took a cab, source said she would

1:08:05

walk and her friend said desirous. Call me when

1:08:07

you get home so I know you get home

1:08:09

safely which I do with all of my friends.

1:08:11

known as right. I'm not sure it's actually a

1:08:14

great for that matter measures but it does make

1:08:16

us feel better. right or lease. You can start

1:08:18

calling and start. you know, like when I didn't

1:08:20

hear from my friend and I was like oh

1:08:23

my god something's happened nicer calling her entire family

1:08:25

it's and man you know, her brother in law

1:08:27

on a way to the apartments a knock on

1:08:29

the door ios is like for god sakes. I

1:08:32

was on a long. Walk for five hours.

1:08:34

Enough cell service. Okay

1:08:37

but if something had happened, time was of the.

1:08:39

Essence shop. Okay. So

1:08:42

anyway back desirous of see leaves

1:08:44

the bar. Again, her friend takes

1:08:46

the camp. she decides to walk. I really wish

1:08:48

that she had taken the cap. I really do,

1:08:50

but. Course.

1:08:54

Czar. Never called, but that wasn't the only.

1:08:56

Thing obviously that sept everything off

1:08:58

about to some tea name's Jordan

1:09:00

starts to haunt Xsara. Remember excuse

1:09:02

been hunting all. Night right?

1:09:05

And. Then he followed her for a while

1:09:07

and he grabbed her from behind to wrestle

1:09:10

to do the ground. And then he dragged

1:09:12

her body into an area where the camera

1:09:14

couldn't see him. Right now, she does appear

1:09:16

to have been intoxicated enough to probably not

1:09:19

even have been aware of the cameras. I

1:09:21

think he pulled her into a dark space

1:09:23

like an alleyway, obviously. right? To

1:09:25

assault or sexually salter and kill her

1:09:28

for death was a horrible. And.

1:09:30

Long and violent torture his

1:09:32

staff. He sexually assaulted her

1:09:34

and then for nine minutes

1:09:37

he. Beat. The living

1:09:39

daylights out of Or and stomp

1:09:41

donner nine minutes If we're to

1:09:43

sit here and silence for nine

1:09:45

minute know? painful? Know. Horrific.

1:09:48

Or. Worth it, in fact, She.

1:09:51

Was. Almost. Amoled.

1:09:55

She. Was in such horrible condition that

1:09:57

when I'm passers by. Found her.

1:10:00

To. They say they've been so traumatized by

1:10:02

it they can't even they can't and see

1:10:04

what they have seen. Know and.

1:10:07

That's you know that happens a lot. I

1:10:09

would think Tracy with Witnesses square nothing to

1:10:11

do with anything does happen to be there

1:10:13

and now they are forever traumatized. By.

1:10:16

The fact that they just stumbled

1:10:18

upon it? Exactly. Yeah. And of

1:10:20

course, this is particularly heinous because.

1:10:22

The condition that her body must have been in.

1:10:27

Oh. My. God. So. You

1:10:30

know she was stripped. She was clinging on to

1:10:32

life. I mean she was just barely

1:10:34

breathing. A paramedic scott their they tried

1:10:36

over an hour to save her and

1:10:38

she was transported to the hospital but

1:10:41

she was pronounced dead and the next

1:10:43

morning almost at ten am the next

1:10:45

morning. So. They tried for hours to

1:10:47

revive her. Meanwhile, Jordan has left his

1:10:49

Dna behind at the scene and it

1:10:51

isn't all the cameras because remembers the

1:10:54

cameras and capture the actual assault. Sit

1:10:56

on a railing that he apparently. They.

1:10:58

Found his fingerprints because he eats.

1:11:00

remember? he was unsteady that he's

1:11:03

throwing onto this railing to steady

1:11:05

himself so he could stomp honor.

1:11:07

And man, I'm. Of course

1:11:09

all of this video added evidence of

1:11:11

the him for the last few hours

1:11:14

for. Then they found more video

1:11:16

of him arriving at Will looks

1:11:18

like an amusement park he was

1:11:20

saying on a friend's caravan which

1:11:22

is what we call like a

1:11:25

trailer or or mobile homes and

1:11:27

there's even so there's video Him

1:11:29

arriving them is video of him

1:11:31

the next morning taking his clothes

1:11:33

off and putting his clothes into

1:11:36

the trash can because it was

1:11:38

very evidence and then by the

1:11:40

next day they had between the

1:11:42

videos and between the fingerprints. And

1:11:44

obviously the Dna. Wouldn't have may be worth

1:11:46

this quickly but the singer prince would have been

1:11:48

in the system they had. They. Had

1:11:51

identified him and then on June

1:11:53

twenty seventh, They arrested him

1:11:55

and may sound his bloodstained sneakers and

1:11:57

genes in the park where he tossed

1:11:59

them. Out I can. Get.

1:12:02

This, I'm sorry. I've no compassion

1:12:05

here. Jordan tells officers that he

1:12:07

suffers. From a split personality disorders?

1:12:09

yeah? still must have been the

1:12:11

other one isn't. Who

1:12:13

misbehaved the night before? Really? Really?

1:12:16

Oh wait a minute. And

1:12:19

busy. Genius. When.

1:12:21

The cops say well what about all the blood on

1:12:23

your sneakers And the closer we found in the trash.

1:12:25

I was bitten by talk. That.

1:12:28

Level of Lot Yeah, genius

1:12:30

smuggle. So

1:12:33

authorities say after multiple interviews,

1:12:35

Jordan showed no remorse. really.

1:12:39

A couldn't have predicted that one. Know of

1:12:41

course he's not showing any remorse. Oh.

1:12:44

My God they describe it is utter disrespect

1:12:46

for the situation. The man don't have respect

1:12:49

for human life. Give me a break. All

1:12:51

the sudden you're. Expecting him to

1:12:53

find Jesus. The. And please, I

1:12:55

don't even see. I don't waste my

1:12:57

breath on this once. In

1:13:00

November Twenty Twenty two Jordan pleaded guilty,

1:13:02

desire is murdered in murder and sexual

1:13:04

assault, sentenced to life in prison. If

1:13:07

I say. Let us hope they

1:13:09

finally we're done with this man. But wait a

1:13:11

minute. But. We're not. But.

1:13:14

We're not rights because the justice

1:13:16

system isn't so much about justice

1:13:18

of the victims. Okay

1:13:21

this once me I want to flip table

1:13:23

at this one. I know I. See

1:13:27

Okay everyone. Stand. By

1:13:29

we're going to rock your boat here.

1:13:31

Okay, this is incredible. So.

1:13:35

Shorten. The man

1:13:37

So wrong to by the system.

1:13:40

Insists unappealing his sentence because he

1:13:42

feels it's not fair. Oh,

1:13:44

life isn't fair. To him

1:13:47

after you buddy really on

1:13:49

net be livable so. He

1:13:51

challenges his sentence. And

1:13:54

so what does? What Does The justice

1:13:56

system? Do for this guy. So. They

1:13:59

save. Five years off. They

1:14:01

save the five years off. About.

1:14:04

The minimum sentence. If he

1:14:06

must serve. So now it's down

1:14:09

to thirty three years. so I guess

1:14:11

you could say it's t one some

1:14:13

kind of a victory by saving five

1:14:15

years off. And. That's.

1:14:18

In thirty three years from now. He

1:14:21

could really be released a

1:14:23

put an end. He'll still

1:14:25

be alive. Young folks sending

1:14:27

a why does he is

1:14:29

thirty. So he won't even be that old.

1:14:31

Sixty three. Okay,

1:14:34

So I guess you could say it's a victory.

1:14:37

And. Here we go again! Here.

1:14:39

We go dance, disguise gonna come

1:14:41

up for parole and then someone's

1:14:43

going to say i saw his

1:14:45

All these that is not a

1:14:47

threat. Ply.

1:14:50

Now and I know this case. get

1:14:52

see. Of course it it gets me

1:14:54

too. I mean, I want to see.

1:14:57

More. Information about what the

1:14:59

arguments Jordan's attorneys presented,

1:15:02

on why. This thirty eight years to

1:15:04

the fit, the severity of the crack. At

1:15:06

face value, the seems heinous and

1:15:08

I'm. Sure, you know, Thirty eight years? Isn't

1:15:10

enough again some time. So what

1:15:12

What we get in the news

1:15:15

and versus. One is in

1:15:17

the court transcript differ. I'm

1:15:21

not justifying. Ah, I Not

1:15:23

justifying. His behavior. I don't want to

1:15:25

hang out with George and I'm not going

1:15:27

to wait for him for those thirty three

1:15:30

years of mine. Nom. It is

1:15:32

it at face value. It seems ridiculous

1:15:34

that he even had one day saved

1:15:36

off, let alone five years. but again,

1:15:38

I need to see the tasty t

1:15:40

else. Is there something that we don't

1:15:42

have that the court had. And

1:15:45

so that is why this case is

1:15:47

still in. The news in the

1:15:49

Uk? Sure because they are still

1:15:51

trying to figure out what they

1:15:54

did wrong. Who to? Hold accountable

1:15:56

and you know these investigations is

1:15:58

the minimum. Sagacious takes. Robert So

1:16:00

Tsar Aunt told Sky news.

1:16:03

That everyone who failed to xsara.

1:16:06

Has blood on their hands.

1:16:09

The family is demanding accountability.

1:16:11

It's here is an interview.

1:16:14

With Sky News. Sinister identifying

1:16:16

says. Even asked

1:16:19

touching her. Dead. Body.

1:16:23

Even us to Boeing says. It

1:16:29

doesn't compute. We. Constantly

1:16:31

stuck in a list. Of

1:16:34

disbelief constantly stuck in

1:16:36

a lupus. Images

1:16:39

in our mind. About

1:16:41

what happened to her, the horrors

1:16:44

that she sighs. And

1:16:46

pains must has endured. We

1:16:48

live in Ahora so that

1:16:50

is as and far on.

1:16:52

Nas. And. When she says it's like

1:16:54

we live in a horror film that's on a

1:16:56

loop. I. Believe it. Sure,

1:17:00

As and also the fact you

1:17:03

know that that they're the a

1:17:05

publicity is focusing on the fact

1:17:07

that the beating with nine minutes

1:17:09

I mean imagine being is it's

1:17:11

a horrible for us to imagine

1:17:13

as the general public but imagine

1:17:15

being this girl's family, this one

1:17:17

family member and is imagining what

1:17:19

those nine minutes. So it's important

1:17:21

that the general public gets the

1:17:23

details to aren't fully understand and

1:17:26

comprehend how heinous the crime was

1:17:28

but sometimes those details releasing those.

1:17:30

Door. Detail to the general public.

1:17:32

Also on. The other families hearing

1:17:34

that and thinking about that and reliving that I

1:17:36

mean of Mps, They probably. Were president court

1:17:39

without with also really so. But

1:17:41

that and yeah that's and you know.

1:17:43

One of the things I think that

1:17:45

got so much media attention on this

1:17:47

case was because the cctv and I'm

1:17:49

sorry for that cause caption am at

1:17:51

full circuit the cctv is. We really

1:17:53

want to believe that. Which. Which

1:17:56

we my Billie something is gonna

1:17:58

protect us. The very

1:18:00

worst elements of humanity, whether

1:18:02

that's you know, Two

1:18:04

hundred years ago when it was a strong.

1:18:07

Family system that didn't let you

1:18:09

leave the house without a chaperone.

1:18:11

Or it was a hundred years

1:18:13

ago with the emerging you know,

1:18:16

police departments in big cities or

1:18:18

now it's with this technology we

1:18:20

really wanna believe that something will

1:18:22

protect us. me personally, From.

1:18:25

You know the the, the worst,

1:18:27

Elements of our society. and I think

1:18:29

we're you know, We were

1:18:31

moving forward and things are protecting us

1:18:34

but at the same time, these. Horrendous

1:18:36

random acts of violence

1:18:38

perpetrated by individuals who

1:18:40

are are agree just

1:18:42

predators. I. Don't know

1:18:45

how are protected from them? Well there were a

1:18:47

lot of failures. Know are a

1:18:49

lot of blame to go around.

1:18:51

There were nineteen cameras on that

1:18:53

road and. They say at least one employee

1:18:56

called in sick that night and as we said

1:18:58

another staff member was. Reviewing footage from

1:19:00

another incident and man when

1:19:02

it comes to the following

1:19:04

up with you know. Role.

1:19:07

And then that probation

1:19:10

department, the union and

1:19:12

group. Representing them says look y'all

1:19:15

privatized part of this and that's part

1:19:17

of the problems and that you have

1:19:19

scaled back on people and that this

1:19:22

is what happens. When you

1:19:24

you know I'm send

1:19:26

the worked out. If

1:19:28

you also. Look.

1:19:30

Is this and which are

1:19:32

about privatizing prisons? And all this all this

1:19:34

other stuff at the end of the day. there is a right

1:19:37

in there is. Wrong and Nathan Point and

1:19:39

one hundred different directions Harris and

1:19:41

in Czarist case. It

1:19:44

was it every every time.

1:19:46

the stop gap or. The

1:19:48

gates were there are. They

1:19:50

didn't work, they dropped. The

1:19:53

didn't. Know. Nothing in the system

1:19:55

works from the system. To

1:19:57

when you know he was on probation. You

1:20:00

the security cameras on a street. And.

1:20:02

Free think failed her that night because he felt

1:20:04

for yeah, yeah. Yeah. Bomb. Or

1:20:07

it's be interested to hear all of

1:20:09

your comments on this case. Sick.

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is time for our comments. Section: These A

1:20:47

crime cases you all are talking. About on

1:20:50

social media. Here's our producer Will.

1:20:52

Have Die Will One of the

1:20:54

Commons last week on you tube

1:20:56

was why is Will Oh isn't

1:20:58

this dark dungeon? Oh.

1:21:01

Or enough, the great question. Do

1:21:04

This is where they he a have

1:21:06

say is what I saw my productivity.

1:21:08

Zola. Yeah good old they are. You

1:21:10

know they lower the lotion down a

1:21:13

couple of times a week. Oh so

1:21:15

I noted. dried out. Give me some

1:21:17

gimme some water. Ah but now that

1:21:20

you the violence of the lamb reference

1:21:22

well as a way I see just

1:21:24

so dark really. Know

1:21:27

what are you know it's for consistency.

1:21:29

the other you know yellow professional matter

1:21:31

gonna back here are loyal. The trophies

1:21:33

are able to display and I have

1:21:35

any it like the don't have the

1:21:37

goat whereas my Ram Meredith that's my

1:21:40

favorite. The way out of the scales

1:21:42

of justice the like Iowa just as

1:21:44

the says of the i mean that

1:21:46

is the one to have is the

1:21:48

Scales of Justice. Oh absolutely and will

1:21:50

be Domestic Violence as a Kid of

1:21:52

the Year award up there. Tracy can

1:21:54

grow your so decorated and paraded. So

1:21:57

bird, That's why I have this. That's

1:21:59

that's the. Right arm. Anyway this

1:22:01

week. Ah, we have a case. I

1:22:03

mean I don't know if it's a

1:22:05

hoedown, a cool man or a felony

1:22:08

Ah, after a country singer throws a

1:22:10

cheer off the roof of a honky

1:22:12

tonk, but this case comes down to

1:22:14

Nashville, Tennessee. Where are we in? Ah,

1:22:17

I don't even know he's already have

1:22:19

in common or if he's already have

1:22:21

ah, Countries are Morgan Wall and was

1:22:23

arrested and charged with multiple felonies. After

1:22:26

an incident at a bar ah,

1:22:28

according to please, the blessings that

1:22:30

occurred at Seats Bar in the

1:22:32

evening hours of April Seven, Twenty

1:22:34

Twenty fourth. Parent.

1:22:36

We are the suspects year or more

1:22:39

in wall and fruits year off the

1:22:41

roof of this establishment are onto Broadway

1:22:43

Street in downtown Nashville. Pretty, you know

1:22:45

busy areas as a lot of going

1:22:48

on here was the last from the

1:22:50

roof implemented about six stories of the

1:22:52

street below where the serial land is

1:22:54

in the immediate vicinity of two officers.

1:22:57

Very boring was you know that young?

1:22:59

Wow. okay very very close Your luckily

1:23:01

I'm you know no one was injured

1:23:03

but witnesses said Wallen was. You know

1:23:05

how the what not exactly remorseful with

1:23:08

kind of laughing after the fact. Ah

1:23:10

I'm and police said that. you know

1:23:12

that the country singer here created a

1:23:14

hazard as a direct quotes a hazardous

1:23:17

conditions by an axe that serves no

1:23:19

legitimate purpose which I love. yeah generally

1:23:21

drone as year off a roof serves

1:23:23

no legitimate purpose other than maybe some

1:23:26

drug entertainment out on else. Ah but

1:23:28

as I said nobody got hurt and

1:23:30

it doesn't appear as though there was

1:23:32

any series property damage. but ah word

1:23:35

a three days arrested under. Center on

1:23:37

three counts of felony, reckless endangerment, and

1:23:39

a misdemeanor disorderly conduct. Ah, you know,

1:23:41

obviously in on his town of a

1:23:44

big deal. He paid his fifty thousand

1:23:46

bail was released right away. Ah interesting

1:23:48

set aside, know hear. His. Next

1:23:50

court date is scheduled for May third

1:23:53

and he schedule for a couple a

1:23:55

concert in Nashville in the city where

1:23:57

we'll have to appear in court for

1:23:59

the first and second. So luckily the

1:24:01

touring schedule lines right. A big make

1:24:03

a court appearance enough to some judges

1:24:05

are very flexible that way you know

1:24:07

because it is do you have to

1:24:09

make a living in a duplicate? You

1:24:11

know it's a it's a Music City

1:24:14

mean comes ah with a big part

1:24:16

of their their whole identity. Ah. Yeah.

1:24:19

As as I'm just wondering what this one.

1:24:22

Would. Know property damage. Is

1:24:25

actually her? anybody? with what do you

1:24:27

think to see? I mean like you're

1:24:29

I'm. In. In terms of justice

1:24:31

like if is a fine situation maybe of

1:24:33

t essay millions you are free to as

1:24:35

they are not throwing chairs off the roofs

1:24:37

of bars. I don't know. Yeah,

1:24:40

I don't know. The first I want to say

1:24:42

thank you that this. Particular story did

1:24:44

not take place at a fast food

1:24:46

restaurant. I thought you guys that you

1:24:49

are going to go to throwing a

1:24:51

cheeseburger off knew him every time on

1:24:53

here. It's crime as the when find

1:24:55

a good one can. you might even

1:24:58

get the sauce battle with trigger that.

1:25:00

What a while an outburst exactly I

1:25:02

thought it was gonna be young chicken

1:25:04

nuggets been thrown off the roof of

1:25:07

assess the summer so because this was

1:25:09

somewhat leakiness and in week punish the

1:25:11

behavior we don't publish a punish. Only

1:25:13

the outcome. Killed

1:25:16

somebody from your professor as unsafe.

1:25:18

Saturn Uranus a red man's brand

1:25:20

you do. You have a guilty

1:25:22

minded you know you were throwing

1:25:25

a chair off of the roof

1:25:27

as six stories high or reasonable

1:25:29

person should be able to assume

1:25:31

you could someone for him. so

1:25:33

he says we call this and

1:25:36

in in in Criminology the fortunate

1:25:38

Offender you engaged in highly dangerous

1:25:40

behavior that didn't have a serious

1:25:42

outta the fortunate. Offender. I've not

1:25:44

heard that. That's interesting. Yeah. Snow

1:25:47

opposite the drunk driver who doesn't

1:25:49

kill someone or right the first.

1:25:52

Simple. Punches somebody and they fall and

1:25:54

get their head but doesn't if

1:25:56

the temple rightly you still engaged

1:25:58

in behavior that was. Really

1:26:00

risky. Such some sort

1:26:02

of punishment. Ah, I'm.

1:26:06

Yeah. I don't know what it would be. The one can't

1:26:08

think of anything. To you know, clever. I can

1:26:10

not be, if anything, clever or appropriate. So

1:26:12

shut up. Know

1:26:15

now that I was very little. what

1:26:17

do you think Janna what's you wouldn't

1:26:19

with the puts your punishment the oh

1:26:21

okay so probably doesn't have you know

1:26:24

a previous ah much as it moves

1:26:26

maybe some other like disorderly done I

1:26:28

would not and when all hell little

1:26:31

situation over there that you weren't coming

1:26:33

forward with their you how iron ah

1:26:35

there you go sell. Process of

1:26:37

pattern here. Maybe he was

1:26:40

intoxicated. Will anyone be served

1:26:42

by this man spending a

1:26:44

lot of time in. Tail.

1:26:46

I mean I have a feeling it's going

1:26:48

to come down to misdemeanor. I did he

1:26:50

say it's a felony right now? So he's

1:26:53

been charged with yeah, three felony counts. a

1:26:55

reckless endangerment in a misdemeanor, disorderly conduct is

1:26:57

Maybe he just we have to. The disorderly

1:26:59

conduct in the South Pole is that any

1:27:01

does can mean. I think you know it's

1:27:03

really important. I do believe in community server.

1:27:06

right? You have to give back to the

1:27:08

community. I don't know what that means. If that means

1:27:10

you know you're going to fix all the tears and

1:27:12

park benches in this. In the Parker

1:27:14

or something. T should do

1:27:16

something. For the community, I think

1:27:18

it's really important. Can I

1:27:21

have? One more thing is my

1:27:23

daughter just moved to Nashville. Moon

1:27:25

know watches you see now goes

1:27:27

to our Vanderbilt Little was there

1:27:29

for her that I went to

1:27:31

Broadway two weeks ago. His past

1:27:33

like it is, liked how it

1:27:36

didn't hit someone is this was

1:27:38

a Friday or Saturday night. Is

1:27:40

it that the street is closed off

1:27:43

to be a pedestrian? There's only the

1:27:45

light. Like horses and

1:27:47

carriages and the the beer peddling

1:27:49

courts for the bachelorette slight but

1:27:51

it didn't hit someone he's really

1:27:53

fortunate as and I still like somebody

1:27:55

who lives there should have known

1:27:57

how to that street is. And.

1:28:00

Dangerous Auto. I did he ever

1:28:02

if he had prior and he's from

1:28:04

that area knows how party should know

1:28:06

how dangerous that was. Okay, a little.

1:28:08

Jail. Time than our. your honor, your

1:28:10

honor. Something I don't see on that like

1:28:12

a cheap either. Big. Punishment.

1:28:15

I don't want to be jail, but it needs to be a. That's.

1:28:18

That's dangerous behavior. Now.

1:28:20

I agree. I agree. Ah, we'll

1:28:22

automaton is one bad A Said

1:28:24

it's a lower our lives. You

1:28:26

can throw stuff off high places

1:28:28

know this already have it's called

1:28:31

Killer Winter. We've had cases of

1:28:33

people dying of it, which hundred

1:28:35

percent makes sense now I'm I

1:28:37

just love the way that this

1:28:39

whole thing was raised. Killer Litter

1:28:41

also sounds terrifying. Yeah, very serious.

1:28:43

I'm Chrissie as they're gonna have

1:28:45

to write a lot to his

1:28:47

than the claims to pay those

1:28:50

fines. Who. Knows who knows, Some

1:28:54

people who work on it's on you know

1:28:56

some of the what previous or time know

1:28:58

which I just full disclosure and and I

1:29:00

know like a couple of Morgan Wall and

1:29:02

song that prison for not with super enough

1:29:04

know you're at all with. The.

1:29:07

You know his, his moral, conduct or

1:29:09

fiber and my best. But lord a

1:29:11

slow was premature they says. I remember

1:29:14

my first beer. Reagan's

1:29:16

Michelle see with a reference to one

1:29:18

of his big hips are they said

1:29:20

last night he left the liquor talk

1:29:22

which is one of his his his

1:29:24

big boss ah it is very biased.

1:29:26

Sample okay is very catchy are are

1:29:28

we now is more about a relationship

1:29:30

sort of real kinda lame over a

1:29:32

bottle of wine but you know Sue

1:29:34

K R with some just created by

1:29:36

supposes when are they send words Otherwise

1:29:38

when you get ready to throw something

1:29:40

make sure you aren't for a minute

1:29:42

and a bunch of paths with yes.

1:29:45

Very diverse. the list by where the and his

1:29:47

life's if he wants you are a few months

1:29:49

they are tools ah but that is gonna do

1:29:51

it for this week's time in such as they

1:29:53

customer service of as and you could do that

1:29:55

over a you tube ah community paid for also

1:29:58

wants this book were on acts were on. The.

1:30:00

Twitter. But. A are aware

1:30:02

on tic tacs Ah anywhere anywhere you

1:30:04

interact, socially, interact the show town. We

1:30:07

always love to hear what you think.

1:30:09

Ah and Anna in August two was

1:30:11

and will definitely respond Your comments. I

1:30:13

do. You know I do like to respond.

1:30:15

I don't respond every on by do respond

1:30:17

a lot. I do. I. Do.

1:30:20

I. Do I have you assume replace these

1:30:22

stupid to me for. Me to ask

1:30:24

you what your thoughts are in your

1:30:26

opinions, arts and then not like. Acknowledge

1:30:29

receipt. I mean yeah. I

1:30:31

mean, that's what I'm saying you're following through on.

1:30:33

that is. Yeah, I. Liked the conversations.

1:30:36

The conversation of this podcast

1:30:38

lives on. The. Only like

1:30:40

and everything like unsubscribe you start a

1:30:42

dialogue swelling of were trying to keep

1:30:44

the dialogue on over. Guess not everyone.

1:30:47

I'll see you all next week. By.

1:30:49

Well, I think we're all little nutty this week

1:30:51

because of the Eclipse. Yes,

1:30:54

I think that so. Yeah, I think so too. Everything's a

1:30:56

little off that the world. And then, so that's

1:30:58

a good thing. You know the doomsayers were

1:31:00

wrong. Once again, The. Fisher of the up

1:31:02

one day they will get it right both. Are

1:31:07

a tracing? Where can people

1:31:09

find you? Follow you? take

1:31:11

your class a learn about?

1:31:13

Yeah. I'm a professor at

1:31:15

the University of New Haven in Connecticut

1:31:17

and sometimes your viewers send me emails

1:31:19

to my work or dressed up by

1:31:21

mom and you can find my professional

1:31:24

page they're also. I did get Twitter

1:31:26

because everybody told me I needed to.

1:31:28

I don't know how to use it,

1:31:30

but I'm trying. I'm Tracey Dicing.sambora The

1:31:32

I don't know how it works but

1:31:34

if you are mister. Graham I'm pretty

1:31:37

sure what am I saying. I don't know

1:31:39

what you're saying. It's not Twitter. Yes,

1:31:41

it's Instagram. Thank you. Yes, I'm trying to

1:31:43

get them trying to get him. Or it's.

1:31:45

It's. For a hip. Yes, with a you.

1:31:48

Get. The Nigeria Lunch. Your comments and

1:31:50

I loved your viewers and damn. Yeah.

1:31:53

They'll have a little a avail as movement

1:31:55

do a good job. be really do the

1:31:57

job balancing you know making sure the victims

1:31:59

perspective. There and letting your guests

1:32:01

also share an arm alternative my

1:32:03

ideas or perspective. So good for

1:32:06

you. Having. A discussion. You

1:32:08

are without a doubt a fan favorite

1:32:10

because people have your perspective. We like

1:32:12

to get a variety of guests and

1:32:15

now way we can have these great

1:32:17

dynamic conversations from different points. Of view

1:32:19

because there isn't just one answer, a

1:32:21

one point of view when it comes

1:32:23

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