0:01

We took it all we brought

0:03

them to on live. And

0:06

and last night, Emperor Hot

0:08

and Ice cold the range

0:11

of the earth. We make

0:13

this colors. Car

0:16

didn't have worked on box we

0:18

did not see we could not

0:21

but she did the a right

0:23

of high pick a. Similar

0:25

starker: How play. To. Play.

0:28

It now with game pass. A

0:30

word of warning. This podcast explores

0:32

graphic and disturbing stories and includes

0:34

some strong language. It therefore

0:37

may not be suitable for our young

0:39

listeners or other folks who may find

0:41

it disturbing. Hello and welcome

0:43

to a special edition of True Crime

0:45

Daily the Podcast. I'm your host, Anna

0:47

Garcia. Our cases this

0:49

week are all about the victims

0:52

of serial killers who survived their

0:54

attackers and they lived to tell

0:56

their stories. Here

0:58

is a preview of a new TV

1:00

series dedicated to the survivors. I

1:05

don't know how she survived. I can still see

1:07

him standing there. But she did. He

1:12

stabs me in my neck. He

1:16

says, I'm going to take your son. And I said, take

1:18

me instead. I fell

1:20

right into the trap like a trapped

1:22

animal. It was said his total

1:24

was 30 something people. They

1:26

really are monsters. His plan is

1:29

kidnap these women, keep them in

1:31

the basement and impregnate them. I

1:34

was raped and shot in that garage.

1:37

At this moment, I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to die. Is

1:40

this guy going to bury me here? You can choose

1:42

to be a victim or you can be a

1:44

survivor. I

1:46

chose to be a survivor. If

1:49

I do make it through this, I'm going to know

1:51

every detail of your face because I'm going

1:53

to get you someday. I

1:55

survived a serial killer. Our

2:02

guest today is Alicia Dennis.

2:04

People magazine's executive editorial director

2:06

Alicia is featured as an

2:08

expert throughout the series. People

2:11

magazine investigates surviving a serial

2:13

killer which presents the harrowing

2:16

survival stories based on first-hand

2:18

accounts of female victims who

2:21

unbelievably escaped their serial killers.

2:24

Alicia is with us now. Alicia, welcome.

2:26

It's lovely to have you. Thank

2:29

you so much for having me Anna. I

2:31

really appreciate being here. Oh,

2:33

absolutely. You know, I have to admit

2:35

here on the podcast we are absolutely

2:37

addicted to People magazine investigates

2:40

and also the crime

2:42

section of your website and of your

2:44

magazine. I mean you just, you

2:46

all do an extraordinary

2:50

job at telling people's stories

2:53

in such a respectful manner.

2:55

And I just think

2:57

that you're a wonderful source for that

2:59

kind of crime

3:01

storytelling. That means

3:04

so much to me to hear

3:06

that. You know, People magazine

3:08

has told crime stories ever

3:11

since the magazine launched

3:13

and we're celebrating our

3:15

50th year if you can

3:17

imagine 50 years in being,

3:19

right? And so people, when they

3:21

think about people, a lot of times they

3:24

think, oh, celebrities and movie stars

3:26

and musicians and of course we're

3:28

all that. But we're also

3:30

have had a crime section since

3:32

the very beginning and the way that

3:34

it's expanded, like you said, you know, you

3:36

can go to the website, you

3:39

can read about it in the magazine,

3:41

but expanding it into this show, this

3:43

People magazine investigates show and now

3:46

this one that's focusing specifically

3:48

on survivors of serial killers

3:50

I think is a really

3:52

unique way to put the

3:54

story in the perspective of

3:57

the victims, you know, the people that are

4:00

in the center of these

4:02

cases and not necessarily the

4:04

killers themselves. Absolutely. And

4:06

this is a series for investigation discovery.

4:10

And we're going to talk about two

4:12

cases that will be

4:14

presented in episodes that

4:16

will be airing on June 2nd, correct?

4:19

That's right. That's right. We're

4:22

lucky in that once our

4:24

episodes in the six-part series are airing

4:27

on investigation discovery, people can also

4:29

check them out on Max. So

4:32

if you happen to miss it and your dates

4:34

are messed up, you can get it on Max.

4:36

But yeah, you're right. This is one that's going

4:38

to be on investigation discovery then. So

4:40

the first case we're going to discuss

4:42

is called Surviving

4:44

the Handsome Devil. And this

4:47

is about a serial killer

4:49

who was dubbed, I

4:51

guess, by the media and police is the

4:53

handsome devil, which, you know, I don't

4:55

like calling any killer

4:58

handsome. You know what I mean? Yeah.

5:01

It just bothers me. But I understand, but it bothers

5:03

me. I know. I know. I

5:05

hear you. I think

5:07

that it was just his

5:09

looks were so striking. People

5:13

talked about how searing his

5:15

blue eyes were. Every time

5:17

someone would describe this person

5:19

as a suspect, that was the

5:21

thing that was standing out

5:24

in those descriptions. So that's

5:28

kind of how he got that moniker.

5:30

I agree with you that romanticizing any

5:32

kind of monster in this way is

5:35

not something that we'd ever want to

5:37

do. And it just kind of makes

5:39

you feel a little bit creepy. At

5:41

the same time, when you look at

5:43

like the Ted Bundy's of the world,

5:46

a lot of these

5:48

diabolical types

5:52

really used every tool they

5:54

had, their looks, their charm,

5:56

their charisma to lure Victims.

6:00

And to enter their lives and

6:02

and trick them and a lot

6:04

of friends, the authorities as well.

6:06

Absolutely. And and that can be

6:08

disarming because we have I think

6:11

in our heads in our minds

6:13

this idea of the monsters and

6:15

that the killer will look like

6:17

a monster. And. He or she

6:19

does not. Frequently.

6:21

Look like a three Monsters com which

6:23

is disarming and of course makes them

6:26

that much more of a predator. So.

6:28

We're talking here about the case

6:30

of Bruce Lindell an he was

6:32

a serial killer with these again

6:34

amazing blue eyes which was something

6:36

that witnesses and survivors. Could point

6:38

to. As a feature

6:40

up at he terrorized

6:42

the greater Chicago area

6:45

and. What? Is

6:47

amazing to me is that to this day.

6:49

That. They're still trying to analyze

6:51

is there are other. Victims.

6:55

Connected to him, You're. Right

6:57

it would, that's I think.

6:59

What's so interesting when we

7:01

dig into. These cases.

7:04

His seat of the ways

7:06

that schools has grown and

7:09

changed that are available to

7:11

law enforcement and as Dna

7:13

testing advances as other kinds

7:16

of tools like that get

7:18

better and better. It

7:21

becomes clearer and clearer that a

7:23

lot of these. Open cold

7:25

cases do have a thread,

7:28

a piece of dna. it's

7:30

may be burned. He had

7:32

no sitting in a cold

7:35

case file for sometimes decades

7:37

That can finally goes families

7:39

that have had these unending

7:42

painful questions, some answers and

7:44

and in connection with Bruce

7:46

lend all those and authorities

7:49

are still finding connections to

7:51

cases that are long cold.

7:54

Is he still alive? Or

7:57

Bruce Lindau um die.

8:00

And ah, Nineteen Eighty

8:02

One. Which. Also

8:05

is mind blowing that.

8:08

That there would still be cases connected

8:10

to him that it would still be

8:13

being looked at is no reason to

8:15

believe it really is and are. There

8:17

have been times and. And

8:20

cases that authorities believe. That

8:22

it's necessary to. A

8:25

Exam bodies so that.

8:27

There. Will be more Dna evidence

8:29

to try to match them.

8:31

Some of these cases with.

8:34

An damn. I.

8:37

Just feel so. Much.

8:40

For the families who are asking

8:42

over and over again in a

8:44

what happened to my loved one

8:46

an end and what was the

8:48

actual. Answer.

8:51

That we have never had and so

8:53

I think that's part of the reason

8:55

why, even though. Justice Getting

8:57

justice in this case is is over

8:59

and away and that he's no longer

9:01

on the earth in own his. Dad

9:04

But they're still that that

9:06

longing. To know that people

9:08

have despite that, Now

9:11

I think so. I think. It's important man.

9:13

I'm victims and survivors be

9:15

some. That their cases still

9:17

be investigated even if the killer is

9:20

dead, because they still have rights. Ah,

9:22

and their rights should not die with

9:24

the killer. Know. Fact that my

9:26

hair. I don't think that's fair to

9:29

them. So there were several with women

9:31

who had run ins with this man.

9:33

I'm back in Nineteen Seventy nine nineteen

9:35

year old sharing hop since she worked

9:37

a bunch of jobs and she was

9:39

waiting tables at a local restaurant. And

9:41

that's when she met a man who

9:43

offered to give her free flying lessons.

9:46

At first I thought, oh my god

9:48

isn't a serial killer Since race. Her

9:50

sister and I was like woo, that's an

9:52

interesting way to get a woman but as

9:54

it turns out, you know she was really

9:56

enjoying this and it would be a parachute

9:59

instructor. meme Bruce with those blue

10:01

eyes who

10:04

had an interest in her and she and him and

10:06

they started dating but she tells

10:08

a story about how he was so

10:11

controlling like waiting for hours outside the restaurant

10:13

for her to get off. I mean who

10:15

sits there in a car waiting? We've seen

10:17

that with other killers to be that controlling

10:20

and I think it's really important Alicia that

10:22

people realize this is 1979. So

10:26

cars are huge. There

10:28

are boats, there are cell phones, you

10:31

know if you want to talk to someone, you want to call

10:33

them at work or call them at home. It's

10:37

not as it was now and also

10:39

police departments and we didn't have the

10:41

internet. So police departments did have a

10:43

form of communicating with each other but not to

10:46

the level here where you could piece things together

10:48

so much more quickly. Yeah, I

10:50

know and when you look at

10:52

these kinds of cases and you

10:54

imagine all of the different careers

10:58

that were put in place for law enforcement to

11:00

solve them if a crime

11:02

took place in different jurisdictions, if

11:04

you know there was a MO

11:08

that was repeated in a

11:10

crime scene that they didn't

11:12

know about because it happened in another

11:14

state or it happened somewhere else. The

11:16

level of communication that is

11:19

available now you know with

11:21

computers and cell phones

11:23

and tracking on satellites and

11:25

being able to know where people are going

11:27

from place to place not to mention the

11:31

surveillance camera footage and things that

11:34

are available there as well you

11:36

know. And so it kind of

11:38

makes sense when you put everything in perspective how

11:40

sometimes dots which we can

11:42

see clearly now could not

11:45

have been observed

11:47

and connected. So

11:50

for some reason, Bruce had

11:52

this obsession with Sherry's teenage

11:54

friend who herself had been

11:56

found murdered and Her

11:59

name was Elizabeth. that the Druze and she's

12:01

gone missing in June of Nineteen Seventy Seven,

12:03

a few years before they started dating. Sim

12:06

Curious, Do you do you think that he

12:08

was connected? To that friend.

12:10

That. Was murdered. And

12:13

you. Might

12:15

suffice, I can only be suspicious

12:17

there are yeah, I realize you,

12:20

we can answer all. The. Questions. But

12:22

when he's like i don't believe in coincidence

12:24

and crime. That's. Really

12:26

smart of Yale and that's

12:28

probably support wire such a

12:31

popular podcast down way. I.

12:35

Think the. Obsession.

12:39

That he had. With

12:41

sherry and at first.

12:44

You. Know when someone's really into.

12:47

A new we have a crush on

12:49

them. At first, that level of obsession

12:51

at least to her, didn't seem to

12:53

be as creepy as it turned out

12:55

to be. A further it when the

12:57

more and when. That

12:59

him talking about that case.

13:02

And. Her being a you know talking

13:05

about how that was a friend

13:07

of hers and not seeming to

13:09

he says interest and having him

13:11

wanna talk about it. More.

13:15

at the time wasn't necessarily

13:17

a red flag. Ah,

13:19

but it was it that it

13:21

definitely snacks. Things now as you

13:23

look back on on what was

13:25

going on. In his

13:28

mind. And what you

13:30

see a lot in in

13:32

serial killers is that level

13:34

of obsession and then that.

13:37

Wanting to read Liz. Ah,

13:40

The crime scenes and. Wanting.

13:43

To find you know some kind

13:45

of sense of power over other

13:48

people and in doing that and

13:50

I know the F B I

13:52

and authorities have spent. a

13:55

lotta time in a lot of effort a

13:57

lot of money and trying to profile and

13:59

understood serial killers

14:01

and the criminal mind and that's like

14:04

something that's impossible to

14:06

do that in

14:08

a way because everybody's different and every

14:10

case is different but there are common

14:12

threads mm-hmm so she

14:15

for some reason he you know he

14:17

was so obsessed with this murder in

14:19

the woods and he apparently dragged her

14:21

into the woods and wanted to see

14:23

where her friend's body had been found

14:26

and I guess she refused

14:28

and they got into an altercation

14:30

and somehow she manages to survive

14:35

this it doesn't appear that he tried

14:37

to kill her but you know he

14:39

was in a relationship with her she

14:42

managed to get herself out of that

14:44

and cut off the relationship it's

14:46

intriguing to me that she was

14:49

not killed by him like it you

14:52

know did because sometimes with these serial

14:55

killers and I've interviewed girlfriends of

14:57

or significant others of they

15:00

have a primary

15:02

relationship and

15:05

yet they go out and

15:07

that's not the person they harm or

15:11

that they necessarily torture their primary

15:13

relationship but then they go out

15:15

and they kill others which is

15:17

it's almost as if like how

15:20

could I put this you leave

15:22

your work at home you're right you don't

15:24

bring it home you don't bring your work

15:26

home it's just a weird separation which he

15:28

apparently had that's

15:31

I think a very a

15:33

very smart way to look at it and

15:36

potentially exactly what it was

15:38

that he was doing almost

15:42

when we have talked to survivors

15:44

of serial killers

15:47

many times they'll describe this

15:49

switch or almost this moment

15:51

where the person that they

15:54

thought they were talking to or they thought

15:56

they knew changed and

15:59

went from sometimes, you know, a

16:01

joking jovial guy

16:04

next door that you would allow

16:06

to pick up your male and walk

16:08

your dog to all of a sudden

16:11

becoming this blank slate, this completely

16:14

empty face

16:17

void of expression. We've

16:20

had a few people describe it almost like their

16:22

eyes were like a shark, there

16:24

was nothing behind them. And they went from being a

16:26

person that you could connect to, to being this monster

16:28

all of a sudden showed up. And

16:31

you wonder if in the case of

16:33

of Bruce Lindahl and his

16:36

relationship with Sherry

16:38

that did she luck out

16:41

that he did not have that

16:43

switch happen with her?

16:46

Was he taking her to

16:48

a killing grounds at

16:50

the time and she managed to not

16:53

go there with him at the

16:55

same time? Or is it more like, you know, what

16:57

you were talking about, I know with the BTK killer,

17:00

there was this period of time that

17:02

he was happy in his relationship where

17:04

he didn't kill anyone for a while.

17:08

And it

17:10

wasn't until later that when

17:13

that relationship faltered or changed in some

17:15

way that he went back to,

17:19

you know, doing the horrible things he'd

17:21

been doing before, but we

17:23

just never know a lot of it has

17:25

to do with circumstance

17:28

and opportunity. Yes, yeah, he's

17:31

huge. Because it's always about

17:33

their self preservation. That's the

17:35

other thing. That's why serial

17:38

killers can continue because right,

17:40

they must survive for

17:42

the next one. Oh, it's

17:44

just so chilling. So later that year, 1979, another

17:47

woman Annette Lazar crossed paths

17:49

with Bruce, and she

17:51

too survived. 19 year

17:54

old Annette was walking to a friend's house

17:56

when a stranger drove by with piercing

17:58

blue eyes. and stopped

18:01

his car, asked to network where she

18:03

was going. He managed to convince

18:06

her to go hang out at his place. But

18:09

then when they reached his garage,

18:11

he shut the door and that

18:13

was it. I mean, this whole

18:16

thing was a trap. His demeanor

18:18

changed instantly like you just described

18:20

how it just like a curtain falls

18:22

so quickly. He

18:24

became intimidating and aggressive, holding her

18:27

at gunpoint before sexually assaulting her.

18:29

This to me is just

18:31

unbelievable. So Annette says

18:33

that she managed to calm him down.

18:35

This is after he has assaulted her and he's

18:38

holding her captive. She said

18:40

she was feeding his ego and feigning interest

18:42

in having a relationship with him, that

18:45

they exchanged numbers and he let her go. I

18:47

mean, that is just crazy. It

18:50

is and I think it's an example, you

18:52

know, when you listen to Annette's story,

18:56

just heart-wrenching her

18:58

recalling this, that

19:03

all of her survival

19:06

instincts kicked in and

19:08

her mind was racing just trying to

19:10

think of what is it possibly that

19:13

I could do? You know, I

19:15

can't overpower him. He had a gun to

19:17

her head and she just

19:19

didn't feel that physically she'd

19:22

be able to escape by, you

19:24

know, using her force. So

19:27

it was about her trying to figure out

19:29

how can I trick him

19:32

into thinking that I

19:36

won't tell anyone and I

19:38

should be let go and

19:40

I find, you know, him

19:42

attractive. These things that just

19:45

kick in that seemed just impossible

19:47

that she would be able to

19:49

have that kind of strength and

19:51

ability, that acting ability in that

19:53

moment. But

19:55

she, I think

19:58

what's so interesting about, These

20:00

stories Anna is the

20:03

strength of these women as they're

20:05

recounting to us the most horrific

20:08

moments in their lives and the

20:11

healing that they tell us

20:14

come with Them

20:16

being able to explain this is why I did

20:18

that because a lot of times You know later

20:20

when they would try to explain that to a

20:22

family member or the police or

20:24

authorities People don't understand

20:27

what it's like in that moment

20:29

of survival that anything that you

20:31

can think of To

20:33

get you out of that situation is What

20:37

you're gonna try to do and sometimes feel how

20:39

could you have pretended that how could you

20:41

have said that? How could you have exchanged

20:43

numbers with them? Well, I was

20:45

trying to live through it I was trying to get out

20:48

and amazing that it works and thank God

20:50

that it did. Yeah, what really disappoints

20:53

me here is she

20:55

went to the police when she managed

20:58

when she was freed she went to the police and They

21:02

didn't take a net seriously and

21:04

they questioned Bruce with his blue eyes

21:07

and That

21:11

was it Didn't

21:13

do anything, you know,

21:15

I think that in The

21:19

way that victims stories are

21:21

handled now Has Grown

21:26

and changed and evolved so much

21:28

in the decades. I think there's

21:30

been more training About

21:32

sexual assault there's been more training and

21:35

sharing of information between

21:38

authorities and the FBI

21:40

about serial killers about

21:42

the charisma a lot

21:44

of times of these predators and

21:48

I really hope That

21:51

by these survivors sharing

21:53

the details of their stories that

21:56

in this day and age you have

21:59

investigation investigators and detectives who are

22:02

learning from those mistakes, those

22:04

really awful, horrible mistakes.

22:07

Because, you know, when we talk to

22:09

police now about these cases, there are

22:12

many times that they will say to

22:14

us in our episodes, we just are

22:17

horrified that we didn't handle this differently.

22:19

We're horrified that we didn't listen to

22:21

this victim in a different way, that we

22:23

didn't investigate this in a different way. We

22:26

could have maybe saved someone

22:28

else's life. And

22:31

they imagine those moments when they, you

22:33

know, come across the

22:35

next victim. Had

22:38

they done something differently? Could they have

22:40

saved that person? And that's got to

22:42

be something that haunts you. Yes,

22:46

because to free him to permit

22:48

him to continue to do the work that he

22:50

was doing. And I mean, again,

22:55

you're right, police training has

22:57

changed. And for whatever

23:00

reason, at this point, they believed

23:02

him and they didn't believe her, which is

23:04

just such a shame, such a shame. What

23:07

what ultimately stopped

23:10

this man and, and

23:12

finally got him arrested.

23:16

Well, you do want to watch

23:18

the episode. Okay. Fair

23:22

enough. You do need to follow along

23:25

with us a little bit. I mean,

23:27

we talked about the ins and outs

23:29

of this, to some degree, but okay,

23:32

I think you're gonna find this one

23:34

particularly interesting because

23:37

I don't

23:39

know that I've ever seen a case solved this way.

23:41

Oh, okay. All right, we'll

23:44

leave it there. Okay, I'll give

23:46

you that. Okay, thank you. Thank

23:48

you very much. You're, you're welcome.

23:52

We took it all. We

23:54

brought them to our market. The

24:02

rage of the eye made

24:05

this course. That

24:07

caused the bottle of vodka. We

24:10

did not see. We could not

24:12

achieve it in the end.

24:15

What will I become? Senua's

24:17

Saga. Hellblade II. Play

24:19

it now with Game Pass. I'm

24:21

Tengtsun Atra. And I'm Investigator Slater. And together

24:23

we co-host a podcast called Psychopedia, which is

24:26

a true crime podcast infused with comedy making

24:28

it a crime-ity. Each week,

24:30

Investigator Slater brings us a wild and thoroughly researched true

24:32

crime case. I'm here to digest it all

24:34

and react just like you probably are right there on

24:36

the other side of the microphone. Somehow,

24:39

I've got to present each case with the

24:41

detail and respect it deserves while also cracking

24:43

up at Tengts' perfectly timed humor and thought-provoking

24:45

questions. Listen to and

24:47

follow Psychopedia on the free Odyssey app or wherever

24:49

you get your podcasts. All

24:53

right. So let's now move

24:55

on to our next case

24:57

of serial killers. I

25:00

think the only thing scarier than one

25:02

serial killer is a duo

25:04

of brothers who are serial killers.

25:06

What could possibly be more frightening than one

25:09

but two? It's a

25:11

nightmare scenario. And it's so

25:13

rare. It's something that you

25:16

just don't see

25:19

very often. And in cases

25:21

where there are siblings

25:25

that are killing as

25:27

a duo, killing together, and,

25:30

you know, it's just really shocking. All these

25:32

cases are chilling, but this is just –

25:35

has a whole other level of

25:38

– I

25:40

think of fear and a nightmarishness about

25:42

it. Oh,

25:44

all of this is giving me nightmares right now.

25:47

So our next case is

25:49

out of Toledo, Ohio, and

25:51

in the early 1980s, brothers

25:54

Anthony and Nathaniel Cook terrorized

25:56

the area with a string of

25:59

sexual assault. and murders and

26:01

the pair liked to target couples

26:03

that were sitting I guess in

26:05

their cars before forcing

26:07

them to drive into like wooded

26:09

areas and then they would commit

26:11

their horrible crimes on them and

26:13

one woman Cheryl Bartlett fans

26:16

survived the attack to tell her

26:18

story her case goes back to

26:20

1981 when she was just

26:23

18 years old and she was a young

26:25

mom living with her fiance

26:28

and fiance bud and and

26:30

had a little one I think

26:34

what so disturbs me about the

26:36

brothers is

26:41

again the idea that there were two of

26:43

them and they were related I just

26:45

I know this is a little bit of a sidetrack do

26:47

you know if they've ever been studied in

26:50

a way every silly killer you

26:53

know there are many forensic sigh

26:55

psychiatrist and psychologist out there who specialize

26:57

in this area but the idea of having

26:59

brothers like this that

27:01

are serial killers as opposed to just

27:04

as we know they're you know for

27:06

as long as there's been crime there have been crime

27:08

families I was just kind

27:10

of wondering about these two the cooks yeah

27:13

I you you

27:16

really hit on a very smart

27:19

question that I

27:22

don't know for sure how much

27:24

studying of them have has been

27:26

done but I would assume a

27:28

great deal just because of the rarity

27:31

of this particular kind of scenario

27:33

right and on top of

27:35

that I know that the

27:38

investigators that were working these

27:40

cases spent

27:43

a lot of time piecing

27:45

together how they came about

27:48

and how what

27:50

their the

27:53

way that they work together the way that

27:55

they lured people in and so

27:57

I think that a lot has been done

28:00

to try to understand exactly

28:03

how these crimes were committed and

28:05

how that all came about. At

28:07

the same time, it is very

28:09

rare. It makes you wonder, you know, whatever they

28:11

do learn, long

28:14

term, how much is that going to help the

28:17

next case? How often is this going

28:19

to be? Well, we hope it's

28:21

really rare. We hope like never. Right.

28:24

Exactly. It's just so curious, you

28:27

know, it just really stands

28:29

out. So back to Cheryl's

28:31

case. So

28:33

she had someone watch the baby for

28:35

the night so she could surprise her

28:37

fiance for a romantic night out. So

28:42

she walked by herself to where Bud was

28:44

working and Bud was of course very upset

28:46

with her for walking alone at night. And

28:49

then after they had

28:51

their moment, their evening, then

28:53

Bud and Cheryl walked home and then a man

28:55

with a gun approached them.

28:58

They were like what, like a block or two away

29:00

from their house? And

29:02

this was so weird to me. So the

29:05

assailant here, one assailant at the time, he

29:08

hands them to ski

29:10

masks to wear that they

29:12

have to wear the ski mask. And

29:16

then they kind of said no, they refused. And

29:19

because they were also being told to go somewhere

29:21

and they're offering their wedding rings

29:23

and whatever money they had. But

29:27

that's not what this attacker

29:29

wanted. It

29:31

isn't. And just

29:37

imagine, you know, the fear and

29:39

the terror

29:42

of not understanding when you are

29:44

being assaulted at night and walking

29:47

alone, walking together and no one

29:49

is around to hear you. And

29:53

just thinking, well, I'm being mugged. This is

29:55

just a basic mugging and take everything.

29:57

Just, you know, we're not going to

30:00

resist, just have all of it.

30:03

It's so

30:05

insidious and horrific what, you

30:07

know, happens to

30:10

this couple and, you

30:12

know, the because

30:14

they were brought to

30:16

another location and, you know,

30:20

was assaulted. And as

30:24

she tells this story about

30:28

when another person

30:30

comes in to the room, she

30:33

thinks they're being saved. She thinks

30:35

someone else has come. And that

30:37

means that this is all over

30:39

now and we're going to be saved because

30:41

certainly now this person has

30:44

been caught in this awful crime

30:46

scene and this is over

30:48

and everything is going to be okay now. And

30:51

just the overwhelming

30:53

horror that no, this

30:56

person is part

30:59

of the serial killer

31:02

brothers and is there to

31:05

continue this crime

31:08

is not there to be their

31:10

savior. It's just awful,

31:13

you know, it's, um, and that

31:15

moment, you know, when you have that moment of hope, you

31:18

know, that sense, that false sense of like, oh my

31:20

God, this is finally over only to learn it is

31:22

far worse than what you expected. It's like what you

31:24

see in a movie. Exactly. It's

31:26

a horrible twist of

31:29

events, like really horrible. So they

31:33

assaulted Cheryl and they forced

31:35

the fiance to watch.

31:37

Yeah, just

31:41

another level of, you

31:43

know, depravity and horror and

31:46

the pain that this poor couple went through.

31:48

Oh my gosh. And then

31:50

I guess they shot

31:52

Cheryl and then they attempted to shoot

31:55

the fiance but the firearm jammed. So

31:57

then the brothers took off. and

32:02

Cheryl lost consciousness.

32:05

Obviously, she was very

32:08

seriously injured. She

32:10

survived. She survived. Their

32:13

relationship, of course, did not survive.

32:16

This was too

32:18

much for anyone. Oh, my goodness. It's

32:23

really impossible

32:26

to imagine everything

32:30

that your

32:33

body and your

32:35

emotions survive in

32:38

these kinds of attacks. And

32:40

the years and years of

32:42

healing that it takes,

32:44

a lot of these survivors will

32:46

talk to us about that this

32:49

is something that lives

32:51

on for them every day. It's

32:54

sometimes a smell or

32:56

a color or a particular

32:58

time of year, a color of a

33:01

car or a gravel. There

33:06

will be something that they did not

33:08

expect that will take them right back

33:11

to those moments that they've tried so

33:13

hard to move past and to forget.

33:17

And part of the reason this is always

33:19

surprising to me when people are willing

33:21

to do shows like this

33:23

with us at People Magazine

33:27

Investigates, why would you

33:30

want to relive that? Why

33:33

would you want to tell that story

33:35

and the details of everything that you lost

33:37

in those moments? And

33:40

what we find is that because

33:42

they are living with this over and

33:44

over again and every single day

33:46

in some cases, that this is

33:48

a moment for them to take

33:51

back that story in some way and

33:54

to prove that it has not

33:56

defined their lives, that

33:58

they can... share

34:01

it and hopefully

34:03

help another victim who feels alone

34:06

and feels unable to share it

34:08

yet, maybe help

34:10

law enforcement understand how to

34:13

investigate these cases better, maybe

34:16

find some way to move

34:19

past it in their own mind

34:21

that in a

34:23

lot of these shows we are taking the

34:25

survivors back to the

34:27

places this happened, this happened to them

34:30

and they have embraced

34:34

this too big of a word but they have

34:36

wanted to do that so that the

34:39

power that that place has had over them

34:41

and it's had over their lives that some

34:43

of that goes away and that

34:45

now you know there's going to be a

34:47

different memory there of them facing it and

34:49

of them being able to talk about it

34:51

and I think in in

34:53

her case the

34:56

ability to have you know evidence

34:58

that was preserved for nearly

35:01

20 years helped police

35:04

understand the scope of

35:06

the killings that occurred with these

35:09

two brothers Anthony and Nathaniel, they nine people

35:11

between 1973 and 1981 and if it wasn't

35:13

for people like her

35:22

being willing to

35:25

talk about the

35:28

most horrible thing that any of

35:30

us could ever imagine then

35:34

these people wouldn't be brought to justice

35:36

and there wouldn't be you know

35:38

help for the other victims. I

35:40

think the difference

35:43

with crime reporting this type

35:45

of true crime reporting that we do is

35:47

that when someone agrees

35:50

to sit down and wants to talk they

35:56

want to tell their story or

35:58

they wouldn't sit down. that we

36:00

don't tell and the people that we don't get

36:02

a chance to share with let's say in a

36:04

more public manner but we may have a private

36:06

conversation with and say you know thank

36:08

you for reaching out but I really I don't

36:11

want to discuss this anymore or I'm done I said

36:13

all that I'm going to completely understand

36:15

that like completely 100% and

36:17

that's probably the camp that I personally would fall into

36:20

like I don't want to talk about this anymore but

36:22

I feel that when someone who

36:25

has been through something so horrific says

36:27

no no I want to

36:29

talk about this story and as you say

36:31

I want to take this back you

36:34

know you need to hear this from

36:36

my perspective and what happened to me

36:38

I think we owe it to them to

36:41

listen and because

36:44

that's that's

36:46

all we have is to sit and

36:49

listen and yes and be with them as

36:52

they tell their story and do our best

36:55

in the most respectful manner to convey

36:57

the conversation that we have just shared

37:00

yes and it's a

37:02

huge responsibility that these

37:05

people are trusting that with

37:08

with us either as you

37:10

know reporters as being

37:13

able to have a

37:15

platform or you know a venue

37:18

for them to share those stories whether

37:21

it's in writing or you know

37:23

audio stories podcast stories television

37:27

broadcast shows and stories

37:33

they're it

37:36

is really you're

37:39

exactly right it's the only thing we really have

37:41

to give them is to listen it's

37:43

listening to respect that and

37:46

I learn a lot um you know again people always ask

37:48

me like how do you do this because

37:50

it's just so depressing and it is

37:52

absolutely depressing what one human can do

37:54

to another but for

37:56

me what is enlightening what

37:59

is hopeful What

38:01

I learned from is

38:04

how a human can process this

38:06

level of trauma and

38:09

emerge and survive

38:12

and be strong and

38:15

it teaches us about survival,

38:17

in some cases about compassion,

38:20

in some cases about forgiveness

38:23

and how you process trauma. And

38:25

there is not one person that I've sat with and

38:27

talked with whom I

38:30

haven't learned from. And

38:32

that to me is the gift. Is the gift.

38:35

Yeah, Anna, you're right. People do ask a

38:38

lot about how can you be surrounded by

38:40

that much darkness and how does it not

38:42

affect you? Well, of course it

38:44

does affect you. It does. But

38:47

it's exactly what you

38:49

said that to be

38:51

able to give these people

38:54

the opportunity to maybe

38:56

in some small way process their

38:58

trauma by sharing it.

39:03

That's huge. And it's

39:07

really important across

39:10

the board, not only for them, but

39:12

for everybody that learn something, for everything

39:14

that you learn, the people that listen

39:16

to you are learning it, the people

39:18

that watch the shows, that read about

39:20

it, they're all learning something. And

39:23

that's what's interesting, that

39:25

there would be hope

39:27

and inspiration and uplift

39:30

in the most horrific of stories.

39:32

And that's what these survivors bring

39:35

to these stories. They're

39:37

amazing. They really are.

39:40

Can we reveal at all how Cheryl

39:46

thought maybe she knew who her

39:48

attackers were? Sure. Okay.

39:53

Okay. So,

39:57

move forward a few years and

39:59

Cheryl saw their faces on the

40:01

news and said, Oh, my

40:04

God, it's them.

40:06

It's them. And

40:13

obviously, different survivors have

40:16

different experiences. They're all incredibly unique.

40:19

But there are a lot of times that

40:21

survivors will talk about as much

40:25

as they're trying to push away the horrible things

40:27

that are happening to them. At the same time,

40:29

they're also soaking up the details so

40:31

that they can remember later. We

40:34

had one survivor who had gone

40:37

through being kidnapped and tortured. And she

40:39

talked about at one

40:41

point being stuffed inside this plastic container.

40:43

And she tried to memorize everything about

40:45

it. She tried to

40:47

see if there were any serial

40:49

numbers that she could read on

40:52

the side of it every moment

40:54

that she could feel and imagine

40:56

she tried to memorize. So

40:59

I think with Cheryl, and when you look

41:01

at just like you had mentioned in this

41:03

story that she and her

41:05

fiance had been told to put on ski

41:07

masks and obviously

41:09

brutalized and traumatized those seem

41:11

like all

41:14

kinds of reasons not to remember. But

41:18

that was the moments and

41:21

the men were etched in her

41:23

memory. And so there was

41:25

no question when she saw

41:27

them again on the news that she knew immediately

41:29

who they were. Unbelievable,

41:33

unbelievable. There

41:35

were multiple murders involved

41:38

with that these two were

41:40

responsible for and they ultimately

41:42

get a plea deal. How

41:46

do you feel about that? You know,

41:49

it's so difficult to

41:51

know how to feel about a lot

41:53

of these plea deals. I know when

41:56

we talk to authorities and investigators who

41:58

are working these cases and many. The

42:00

time they've worked these cases in such

42:02

a way that they were the first

42:04

people upon a crime scene that keeps

42:07

them awake in the middle. Of the

42:09

night, something that they never ever forget.

42:12

And. So.

42:15

It makes it very difficult to

42:17

even imagine a. Plea deal. When.

42:20

Those are the moments that

42:22

are seared into your brain

42:24

that you believe these people

42:26

are responsible for creating and

42:28

for committing. At the

42:30

same time you. Hear authorities talk

42:32

about how important it is

42:35

to get information for families

42:37

who don't have answers to

42:39

wear their loved ones. So

42:42

a lot of times and these plea

42:44

deal scenarios you're looking at. What

42:47

information? Ten we get? To

42:50

be able to solve cases that

42:52

are gonna bring answers to these

42:54

people who are desperate for answers.

42:57

And. How much. Are.

42:59

We willing to give up to

43:02

get that information. In.

43:05

Regard to the plea deal. It's

43:07

astonishing. I mean, you've got here.

43:09

Anthony Cook pleaded guilty to

43:11

nine murders and multiple sexual

43:13

assault. Nathaniel plead guilty the

43:15

three murders and three additional

43:17

assaults. Anthony got a

43:19

life sentence. Nathaniel was sentenced to seventy

43:21

five years with the possibility of parole

43:23

after twenty years and dear lord, He

43:27

was released in twenty

43:29

eighth team. But.

43:32

Registered. Sex offender and under.

43:34

Extreme Supervision. Excuse me, There's no

43:37

such thing as extreme supervision. Were

43:39

have the resources for that and it's just

43:41

bugged. Why did he have to be released?

43:43

Why? Should this man be released and enjoy life

43:46

and have a good cup of coffee down the street

43:48

because that's what he feels like Haven't this morning disease

43:50

got the freedom to do it. Now

43:52

I hear I. I'd like

43:54

this is done under such a difficult thing.

43:56

To wrap your brain around completely

43:59

difficult. In the I know

44:01

that a lot of times investigators. Spend.

44:05

Hours and hours making sure

44:08

that family members, families of

44:10

victims understand what it is

44:12

that's being bargained away. And.

44:15

Are in a lotta cases. Make sure

44:17

that they have. Not.

44:20

Permission per se, but that they do

44:22

have the understanding of the families that

44:24

that's what's gonna happen in this plea

44:26

deal that we're gonna find out this

44:29

other information and it's possible that this

44:31

person could be. Walking.

44:33

Free and and however many years

44:36

it's. Awful.

44:38

Awful. Well, this particular episode

44:40

surviving the. Koch Brothers will

44:43

be premiering. Sunday, June

44:45

ninth on Investigation Discovery.

44:48

Ah, Thank. You so much.

44:51

For. Taking the time to talk

44:53

about these cases and I know they'll be so

44:55

much more on the show that will give us

44:57

the contexts that we doesn't there. Or.

45:00

I really appreciate the work that

45:02

easier and the time that you

45:04

spend looking at. All

45:06

kinds of cases Cnn places that run

45:08

the gamut hadn't it's It's really an

45:10

honor to be able to talk to

45:12

you about the ones that were looking

45:15

at and are so so. Thank you

45:17

for that. Thank you. it's a pleasure

45:19

and thank you again. We. I'm We have

45:21

a lot of respect and admiration for

45:23

the work that you all do. People

45:26

Magazine investigates and People Crime so

45:28

I'm thank you. Can a Leash

45:31

I presume. That I a people is everywhere

45:33

so it's off I don't with sounds ridiculous for

45:35

me to say. and where can we find out

45:37

more about you. Know

45:39

I really really. You're asking we actually because

45:41

you can read about these stories and People

45:44

Magazine. Of course we're covering a

45:46

lot of these very stories and

45:48

talking to these survivors and pages

45:50

of people. but you can also

45:52

get a pupil.com read about it's

45:54

ah, Investigation Discovery of course on

45:56

see the shows there and and

45:58

look online. And like

46:00

I said, catch the streaming

46:03

on Macs if you happen to miss

46:05

it on Investigation Discovery. Terrific.

46:07

You can find this episode and all

46:09

episodes of our podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

46:12

You can subscribe to our YouTube channel.

46:14

You can subscribe to our newsletter at

46:16

our website. So until

46:19

next time, this is True Crime Daily, the

46:21

podcast. I'm your host, Anna Garcia. And as

46:23

we always say, don't cry.