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and welcome to the Sidebar Presented by

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True Crime Daily take you inside the

1:42

court rooms of high profile and notorious

1:45

cases from across the country. I'm your

1:47

host, Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense

1:49

lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously

1:51

in L, A county prosecutor for nearly

1:53

a decade. You can find me on

1:55

all social media at Joshua Ritter E

1:57

S Que or at Joshua Ritter. Died.

2:00

Com: We're recording this on Friday,

2:02

May Third: Twenty Twenty Four In

2:04

this week's episode, a father who

2:06

allegedly forced his six year old

2:08

son to run on a treadmill

2:10

because he believes the boy was.

2:13

Too. Fat faces a first degree

2:15

murder charge following the boy's death.

2:18

Plus. A tick tock star chart

2:20

with the double murder of his

2:22

wife and her male companion. But

2:24

first trial begins for a woman

2:26

charged with murdering her police officer

2:28

boyfriend in a case where for

2:30

defense cries, conspiracy and cover up.

2:32

Today we are joined by Natalie

2:34

Whittingham Burrow a public defender, legal

2:36

analysts and you tube or you

2:38

can find at Natalie lawyer check

2:40

Natalie welcome back. Focus.

2:42

Unless the had. And. Will Das! It's nice to

2:45

be here. Absolutely. I've been looking for to

2:47

this because I know I've I've watch your

2:49

show on you tube a few times and

2:51

I know that you follow these cases are

2:54

very closely especially this care and read one

2:56

which I want to jump into first cause

2:58

it's amazing to me that a case that.

3:01

I. Feel like trials like this are taking place

3:03

across the country all the time? And.

3:05

For some reason this when fire and

3:07

it's really got. Both.

3:09

That local community but now even on

3:12

a national level people really interested in

3:14

this case on and will get into

3:16

a little bit why that might be

3:18

in what the mysteries surrounding it by.

3:20

Let's just catch people up really quickly.

3:22

Trial kicked off this week for a

3:24

Boston women accused of killing her boyfriend

3:26

by running him over with your as

3:29

you the leaving him to die in

3:31

a blizzard. Opening statements were presented on

3:33

Monday and of high profile and contentious

3:35

murder trial of terror and read read

3:37

faces charges in connection with the Twenty.

3:39

twenty two death of her boyfriend officer

3:42

john oh keith through the first two

3:44

days of testimony jurors heard from family

3:46

members of a keith along with police

3:48

officers and firefighters who responded to the

3:51

seen as his death in january of

3:53

twenty twenty two responding personnel testified to

3:55

a chaotic scene in which will keep

3:57

was laying face up as read was

4:00

attempting to give him CPR. She

4:02

had blood on her mouth and

4:04

was described as distraught and screaming.

4:07

Reid's defense team wasted no time

4:10

attacking police protocols, questioning why investigators

4:13

didn't go into the home or talk

4:15

to the homeowners where O'Keefe was found.

4:17

So far, three of the responding

4:19

firefighters and paramedics have testified that

4:21

Reid was heard to be repeating

4:23

the phrase, I hit him again

4:25

and again. Trial is expected

4:28

to last six to eight weeks. Natalie,

4:30

I'm just going to let you jump right in. What

4:32

are your impressions so far? Who is

4:34

doing, who is, who is, who is the one bringing

4:36

the punches in this case so far? Oh,

4:39

absolutely. I have a lot of thoughts on this case. In

4:42

my opinion, the defense

4:44

is really bringing it here. I think

4:47

that what's really interesting about this case

4:49

is that before I started watching the

4:51

trial, I heard in passing that they

4:53

were going to be advancing a defense

4:56

that the police were framing Karen Reid

4:59

for the death of her boyfriend, for hitting

5:01

him with her car and driving away.

5:04

And it almost made me laugh because

5:07

the idea of the police framing

5:09

someone is, you know, it's just

5:11

very rare that something like that,

5:13

this widespread conspiracy could even happen.

5:16

And so it was hard to take

5:18

that allegation seriously until I heard the

5:20

opening statement and the way that the

5:22

cross-examination is going. The defense here did

5:25

their own independent investigation, which is not

5:27

something that every defense attorney is always

5:29

able to do in every single case,

5:32

because sometimes the case is just about

5:34

attacking the prosecution's case and pointing

5:36

out the weaknesses. And they're

5:38

doing more than that here. They had

5:41

their own theory that the police

5:43

participated in this coverup. Lending

5:45

credence to that theory is the main

5:48

detective, the lead investigator on the

5:50

case, showing a bias and

5:52

a lack of a complete investigation here.

5:54

So I do think that there's some

5:56

credibility to the defense's case. Ordering

6:00

presentation from the defense Thus far better than

6:02

what the prosecution is preventing at that point

6:04

in time. Yeah. I agree, they're

6:06

They're obviously talented in seasoned defense attorneys.

6:08

And in full disclosure, I was a

6:11

former law partner with Alan Jackson who's

6:13

one of them lead a defense attorneys

6:15

on the case. I've known him for

6:17

very long time, some very talented lawyer

6:19

and one of the things that he

6:21

always said he's dead. You have to

6:23

have a every case has to have

6:26

a villain are very case has to

6:28

have a bad guy and if that

6:30

is not your client than you have

6:32

to give. The jury pool is and

6:34

they've demonstrated dad remarkably. In this case,

6:36

with like you said, making the police

6:39

the bad guy, it's the police department

6:41

who's the villain in this case. They're

6:43

They're the ones responsible for this whole

6:45

cover up. And

6:48

I think David that they've established that

6:50

steam. And like you said, they're continuing

6:52

to presented throughout their current cross examination.

6:54

But I agree with what you were

6:57

saying. your initial reaction is to that.

6:59

It's it's a big thing to have

7:01

jurors swallowed this whole mass conspiracy and

7:03

all the moving parts involved in it.

7:06

And that was one of my questions to you is.

7:10

That the prosecution's theory is that she

7:12

hit him with her car and then

7:14

left him to die from but they

7:16

still have to establish speech. She did

7:18

that knowingly and with some sort of

7:20

bad intense knew that she had him

7:22

and knew that he was injured to

7:24

the point that he would die of

7:26

whom were is. It seems like to

7:28

me I built in theory of defense

7:30

may be. I didn't know

7:32

I hit him or if I did hit

7:34

him it was an accident and instead the

7:37

defense's saying she never hit him. He

7:39

was beaten inside the home and the police are

7:41

involved in this cover up d Why do you

7:43

think they went? They. Went for

7:45

this kind of suit the moon. riskier, winner

7:47

takes all sort of defense here and ride.

7:50

And because we know that it's difficult to

7:52

dates in defensive front of a jerry to

7:54

celebrate that you pick. One and they pick

7:56

the one that. Are most legal practice

7:59

and are usually. doesn't pass the smell test

8:01

for us, right? But I think

8:03

here they really do have the evidence, you

8:05

know, to back it up. The gentleman had

8:07

on him scars that were

8:10

consistent with dog bites. They

8:12

had a family dog that was a German

8:14

Shepherd that no one knows where that dog

8:16

is now. You

8:18

had the fact that the plow person drove

8:20

in and out of the area and didn't

8:22

see a dead body there. And

8:25

also the fact that the

8:27

EMTs and the first responders

8:30

it was actually just one of the first responders

8:32

that heard her saying that. Other ones said that

8:34

they saw the blood on her face and

8:36

that they could hear that she was, you know, freaking out

8:39

and everything. But that they didn't necessarily

8:41

hear her say that she's the

8:43

one that hit him. It was

8:45

one EMT that said that he

8:47

heard her hit him. And that

8:49

really, that could be interpreted as

8:52

her fear. Like I fear that I hit him,

8:54

did I hit him? I don't know that I

8:56

hit him. But that doesn't mean that she

8:58

actually committed the crime. And then you have those

9:01

communications and the phone records, which this

9:03

is the first time I've ever seen

9:05

the prosecutor call into question celebrate data.

9:08

That's usually what they, you know, rely

9:10

upon. And they're saying that these cell

9:12

phone records that show that the lead

9:14

detective expressed bias against her. I think

9:16

is evidence could be evidence towards the

9:18

coverup which is kind of distasteful to

9:21

even have to allege that. But

9:23

there's evidence to back up what they're saying. And so

9:26

I think that's why they went with it. Yeah,

9:29

no, I agree with you.

9:32

You have to pick an argument. If

9:35

you try to give them the whole, my

9:38

client didn't do it, but if

9:40

she did do it, it was an accident, you're

9:42

losing credibility. I agree with you. So there is

9:44

some method behind this far

9:47

more aggressive and riskier though, I

9:50

think defense strategy. I

9:52

wanna get back to, because one of the Linchpin,

9:56

pieces of evidence for the

9:58

prosecution is what. Coming out

10:00

in court now and it is this idea

10:02

of i hit him in a h. I

10:06

v You're saying that only one person

10:08

heard it. I think others have testified

10:10

to. Something.

10:13

Along the lines of telling. Other

10:15

are other investigators that that's what they

10:18

heard and there's some discussion about was

10:20

she saying it. In response

10:22

to questions Or was he telling other

10:24

people? Who? Was she talking to Britain.

10:28

So. Far I've I feel it leaves.

10:30

My assessment is the daddies been fairly. Well

10:33

established. It's somebody heard her

10:35

say that. Okay, Now.

10:38

And a you kind of touched on this but

10:40

how does the defense had that handle that Let's

10:42

say that is what she said Okay them Juri

10:44

believes that had of they had of a deal

10:47

with that. Yeah I think

10:49

they have to embryo interpret that information

10:51

and they they had a bit it

10:53

in their opening a signal that and

10:55

they said on you know that wasn't

10:57

a declaration that with the class said

10:59

is basically how they it's so is

11:01

you know here he is laid out

11:03

that the last place that she saw.

11:06

Him She dropped him. Off their oh my

11:08

god did I hit him on now

11:10

And of course. The prosecution's in a

11:12

say why would anyone jumped to that conclusion

11:14

But you know is it could just be.

11:16

You know. Greece seer ah

11:19

I'm and just. Less

11:22

of her saying that she had him

11:24

and asking did I hit him area

11:26

know I had hands You know it's

11:28

all about that tone of voice, face

11:30

of the arson and just bringing doubt

11:33

The at That's all they have to

11:35

do. Doubt that she was making some

11:37

type of confess and I think it's

11:39

the same best evidence that they can

11:41

raise about whether or not seen meant

11:43

that she was confessing that he had

11:45

him. Or issue with asking Those

11:47

around her said i hit him. Down

11:50

know you're right. it's very different. Ah,

11:53

Statement: If you realize that it's

11:55

either. Her Confessing:

11:57

Here's what I did for food.

12:00

Coming to the realization. Of

12:02

perhaps this is what happened, right?

12:04

And it sounds like even her

12:06

mental. And emotional state

12:08

at that time may have. Made.

12:11

Lend itself more towards the latter that she's

12:13

kind of. Ideal. If

12:15

she's even saying I hit him, it might

12:17

be a question in itself. I see him,

12:19

I hit him like this shocked moment. I'd

12:22

still like I said with the prosecution, even

12:24

if they get to that point. That.

12:27

Does not make it a murder. I

12:29

mean they still gonna have to prove

12:31

that she did it on purpose or

12:33

knew that she hit him in left

12:35

him to die. There's a lot of

12:37

other ah of hoops they're gonna have

12:39

to jump through beyond just whether or

12:41

not her vehicle in fact hit him.

12:43

So fascinating case we will can. It's

12:45

supposed to go on for another six

12:47

to eight weeks or so. Odd. Today

12:49

I believe they're doing a jury view

12:51

of the scene so that will be

12:53

interesting on. We will continue

12:56

to watch this one and update all

12:58

you folks as we have them by

13:00

A really fascinating case and now I

13:02

think everyone's beginning to understand why it

13:04

has caught so much attention. Falling

13:07

off our culture enthusiasts are you? Excessive

13:09

offing celebrity for the drama. Alas, and

13:11

unexpected moments that unfold on social media

13:13

said you're gonna wanna tune into the

13:16

comments I Slept podcast join us he

13:18

handsome used as a d that into

13:20

every aspect of pop culture whether it's

13:22

dissecting the latest trends, are just chatting

13:24

about your favorite slabs com as I

13:26

saw as. Has you covered with new episodes

13:28

out every week. Found us into town as

13:30

I saw as and the free artist in

13:32

every day or. let's

13:38

move to tom's river new jersey

13:40

where a father charged with first

13:42

degree murder in the death of

13:44

his six year old son is

13:46

currently facing trial after forcing the

13:48

boy to run on a treadmill

13:50

to the point of exhaustion according

13:52

prosecutors christopher gregor as seen on

13:54

surveillance footage is the apartment in

13:56

departments gym repeatedly forcing his son

13:58

corey mitchell though run, allegedly

14:00

because the father thought that the

14:03

boy was too fat. In

14:06

the video, the boy reportedly stumbles and

14:08

falls as Gregor continues to increase the

14:10

speed with the father forcefully pulling the

14:13

child up and demanding him to continue

14:15

running. Two weeks after

14:17

the alleged incident, the child was

14:19

taken to a hospital after Gregor

14:21

noticed his son short of breath,

14:23

slurring her words and suffering from

14:25

nausea. The child began

14:27

to have seizures and died in the hospital shortly

14:30

after and autopsy cited the cause of

14:32

death as the result

14:34

of blunt force injuries along with

14:36

concussions to his liver and heart

14:39

combined with acute inflammation and sepsis.

14:42

While the manner of death was ruled

14:44

indeterminate, a later review of the autopsy

14:46

deemed the child's death a homicide and

14:48

Gregor was charged with murder. The

14:51

father maintains the child's death was

14:53

the result of natural causes and

14:55

complications from pneumonia. Gregor

14:57

shared custody with the boy's mother at the

14:59

time of the death and she

15:01

claims that she reported Gregor over 100

15:04

times for child abuse,

15:07

however no actions were ever taken.

15:10

The father faces a potential life sentence if

15:12

convicted and previously turned down a 30

15:14

year plea offer in the case. Natalie,

15:17

I don't know if you've seen the video in

15:20

this case but it's really disturbing

15:22

to see this young man just

15:25

struggling and you can tell, it

15:28

breaks your heart because you can tell he's both

15:31

in fear of and trying

15:33

to please his father but

15:36

from a legal perspective, there's

15:43

a problem here, right, between what

15:45

is captured on video, did that

15:48

actually cause the boy's death and

15:51

if it did,

15:54

do you see

15:56

where I'm going with this kind of disconnect

15:58

is that it's obvious we're witnessing abuse,

16:00

but are we witnessing the beginnings and makings

16:02

of a murder, I guess is my question.

16:05

Right. And then we also have to remember that

16:08

there's, there's no way to know

16:10

what happened in between that horrible

16:12

treadmill torture and the time

16:14

that he passed away. So we're just assuming

16:16

that's the only physical

16:19

abuse that precipitated his

16:21

death. So, you know,

16:24

it's tough here because whenever there is

16:26

a span of time that elapses between

16:28

the moment of the assault and the

16:30

moment of passing away, that is an

16:32

opportunity to raise doubt from the defense

16:34

perspective of things. So what the prosecution

16:36

is going to need to

16:38

do is to get an

16:40

expert medical doctor, probably somebody

16:43

in pediatrics to say that

16:45

this type of abuse could

16:48

lead to those types of injuries, which led to

16:50

the death. I don't know that

16:52

the defense will have their own expert, nor do

16:54

they have to. They do not have a burden

16:56

of production, but if the prosecution

16:58

has a medical doctor, then it

17:00

does help the defense. If they have

17:02

their own medical doctor to contend against

17:04

what the prosecution's doctor is saying, what

17:06

they call it a battle of the

17:08

experts. But if they don't have a

17:11

medical doctor on the defense side, it's going to make

17:13

things a lot harder. But

17:15

just as a human being, watching that

17:17

you played that video in

17:19

front of a juror jury, and I

17:21

don't think he stands a very good chance,

17:24

no matter what the medical say, they could

17:26

just have a visceral reaction to that alone.

17:28

But yes, causation will be the key issue

17:30

here for the prosecution. That's where they're going

17:32

to have an uphill battle, but it's not

17:34

impossible for them. Yeah, no, I'm

17:36

so glad you brought out that last point. That was

17:39

that was something I wanted to talk to you about

17:41

is that sometimes, and I'm sure you've seen this, there

17:44

is something that is so emotionally

17:46

impactful to a jury that the

17:50

law and the elements and everything else kind

17:52

of seems to take a backseat. And I'm

17:54

wondering if you think that'll take place here

17:56

or is likely to take place here with

17:59

the the reaction you have

18:01

to watching that you're so

18:03

disgusted that it seems

18:05

like you know when you when

18:07

you start getting down to causation and nexus and all

18:09

of these other legal issues they might just say you

18:11

know what I don't I saw what you did to

18:13

that young man I don't really care at this point.

18:17

That's exactly right and if they

18:19

are if the prosecution is strategic

18:21

about their charging document they're not

18:24

just charging murder they're charging child

18:26

abuse they're charging neglect because

18:28

if he wants to say this child

18:30

had pneumonia and that caused the child

18:32

to die why didn't you take the

18:34

child to the hospital sooner if the

18:36

child died from pneumonia because it's

18:39

2024 usually kids aren't dying from that so

18:41

if he was he went on for so

18:43

long being sick without you taking it to

18:45

the hospital that's also neglect resulting in the

18:47

death of the child so they're going to

18:49

have to be very very careful with their

18:51

charging documents and not just try to shoot

18:53

for the moon as he said with the

18:55

previous case you want to make sure that

18:57

you have those insurance charges in there the

19:00

lower charges that may carry less time but

19:02

will ensure that you get a conviction because

19:04

they may have a hard time with this

19:06

murder charge but they would not have a

19:08

hard time with a child abuse charge. Very

19:10

difficult case to defend I

19:12

imagine I do not

19:14

envy the defense attorney in this case

19:16

and I understand he's doing a very

19:18

admirable job but it's

19:20

hard to stand there and make

19:23

a very nuanced and legal argument

19:26

about you know you

19:28

don't have proof of my

19:30

client's actions actually causing this

19:32

death when jurors have had to

19:34

sit through and they've shown that video more than

19:37

once jurors are is no matter how many times

19:39

you know this know how many no matter how

19:41

many times you give them instructions they are at

19:43

the end of the day just

19:45

people who are going to kind of do what

19:47

they feel is the right thing and so sometimes

19:49

that works out and sometimes it doesn't. Right.

19:54

Finally we move to San Diego, California

19:56

where a prominent TikTok star is facing

19:58

a murder trial he's expected

20:00

to testify in his own defense.

20:03

Ali Abulaban, who went by Jin

20:06

Kidd on TikTok, faces two counts

20:08

of first degree murder for the

20:10

deaths of his wife, Anna Abulaban

20:12

and Rayburn Baron,

20:14

who were executed in a luxury apartment

20:16

in October of 2021. The couple had

20:20

lived together in the residence

20:22

with their five-year-old daughter before

20:24

Anna allegedly kicked Ali out

20:26

as their marriage deteriorated amid

20:28

claims of violence and infidelity.

20:30

Ali reportedly became

20:33

concerned that his wife was unfaithful

20:35

and his suspicions led the man

20:37

to bug his daughter's iPad with

20:40

an audio listening device before the

20:42

fatal incident. Upon hearing a man's

20:44

voice and laughing, Ali allegedly returned

20:46

to the home where his wife

20:49

and Baron were later found dead.

20:51

Prosecutors claim the killings were the

20:54

cold, calculated actions of a scorned

20:56

lover, while Ali's defense contends

20:58

that the alleged murders were the

21:01

heat of passion actions of a man

21:03

who is mentally and emotionally pushed to

21:05

his breaking point. In what

21:07

could be a pivotal move for his

21:09

defense, Ali is expected to take the stand

21:12

in the trial, which is underway at the

21:14

time of this recording and we will of

21:16

course keep you updated as that case develops.

21:20

All right, Natalie,

21:23

the crime itself and who committed it doesn't seem

21:26

to really be in dispute in this case and

21:28

it seems as though the defense strategy is to

21:30

essentially concede that

21:32

and it sounds like even

21:35

from the evidence he confessed

21:37

essentially to investigators.

21:39

So, arguing that

21:42

path that he didn't have anything to do

21:44

with it seems like a losing strategy. But

21:48

what do you think the defense is trying

21:50

to accomplish here by having him take the

21:52

stand? I

21:56

would think that trying to... Okay.

22:00

A defense is like this, like heat

22:03

of passion, even self-defense. A lot of

22:05

the times it is about not

22:08

only the objective, what would a

22:10

reasonable person do in this situation,

22:12

but also the subjective, was your

22:15

client actually just overcome and lost

22:19

all rationality because of coming

22:21

upon the scene. And

22:23

so there's really no other way to get

22:25

that out without your client's testimony. And that's

22:28

why you would put him on the stand.

22:30

And also it could help to humanize

22:32

him in front of the jury because

22:35

so far everything that they're going to

22:37

be hearing will be from the state's

22:39

version of events, which will be really

22:41

horrible for him. But of

22:43

course, there is also the possibility

22:45

that someone who put a tracking

22:48

device and then turned around and

22:50

killed their wife may not come

22:52

across too well on the witness

22:54

stand. So they could, I don't

22:56

know how he presents what his attitude is

22:59

like, but that could also backfire depending

23:01

on how he presents to the jury.

23:03

Yeah. Yeah, I think you're

23:05

right. I think this was one of those cases

23:08

where this isn't them being

23:11

clever. This is them having no choice. And what

23:13

they're doing too, they're not trying

23:15

to argue a defense that will get

23:18

an acquittal out of this case. They're

23:20

essentially asking the jury for a manslaughter.

23:22

They're saying this is heat of passion.

23:25

He's responsible, but there's an explanation as

23:27

to why you shouldn't view this as

23:29

some sort of cold hearted murder. And

23:32

you're right. You can only get that through him, but

23:35

boy, he is going

23:38

to really have to perform on

23:40

the stand. Right. I

23:42

mean, if there's any indication that he's got crocodile

23:44

ears up there, they will, they

23:47

will, they'll be done with them.

23:49

Don't you think? Right. Exactly.

23:52

And in cases where it's

23:54

really only their word and it happens a lot of

23:56

times in how to size, right? Where it's a

23:58

self-defense claim or a heat of the. compassion claim

24:00

or imperfect self defense, you

24:02

need them to impress upon the jury that

24:05

had it not been for this extreme circumstance,

24:07

they would never be here. My

24:10

goodness, but if they come across as

24:12

though they're cold, calculating, unremorseful

24:14

or have hatred towards

24:16

the decedent, then the jury

24:18

is going to definitely hate them. So

24:20

it is just such a big gamble. Yeah,

24:24

I want to put you on the spot. But

24:26

I'm sure you've had cases that you've handled yourself

24:28

where your clients have confessed. I

24:31

know from having been a prosecutor that my

24:34

boss would hand me a file and they're

24:36

walking me through what the facts

24:38

are and they say, and by the way

24:40

he confessed, I'm like, okay, hand

24:44

me the file, I'm done here, that's all I need to know.

24:47

I'm sure from the defense side of things, it's

24:49

got to have the opposite effect. And by

24:51

the way, your client copped out to the whole

24:54

thing. How do you approach those cases?

24:57

Well, I'll tell you this, I spent a

24:59

lot of time in Fifth Amendment motions to

25:01

suppress those cases. Yeah. Because

25:03

the confession, even though people don't think

25:06

of themselves as confessing, oh, I

25:08

just told them I was there, but I didn't start

25:10

it. Well, then you've confessed to your presence at the

25:12

scene, which they didn't have before that. They

25:15

didn't have any evidence. You were there outside of what you just

25:17

said. So thank you for that. So a lot

25:19

of the times we're trying to suppress

25:21

those because we're trying to make sure that their

25:24

Fifth and Fifth Amendment rights weren't violated. And

25:27

then if there is no resolution after,

25:29

you know, there's a straight up confession

25:31

or somehow your client has implicated themselves

25:33

and you have to take the case

25:35

to trial, you have to

25:37

come up with an explanation for

25:40

why your client didn't really mean

25:42

to say that they did it.

25:44

Or you have to in some

25:46

way come up

25:48

with an alternative defense that is a

25:50

mitigating defense, such as like you said,

25:52

like with manslaughter. So you have a

25:54

confession and a homicide and you'll have

25:56

to in some way say that this

25:59

was impossible. perfect self defense or you

26:01

know, some something like that, or battered

26:03

women's syndrome or something like that. But

26:06

it's really, really tough. You know, a

26:08

lot of the times the best evidence gets your client

26:10

is their own word. Yeah,

26:12

yeah, I, I fully

26:15

agree. I think there's something psychologically

26:17

that takes place with jurors where

26:19

all of those nagging questions

26:22

they may have had about, you

26:24

know, is DNA and fingerprints and

26:26

even videotape and everything else, you

26:28

hear a come out of the

26:30

defendant's mouth. And they're kind of like, wow,

26:33

I can sleep well at night now. I know this

26:35

guy admitted to the whole thing. So it's kind of

26:37

like, it takes all

26:39

the all the guesswork out of

26:41

their hands. It's, it's very powerful,

26:44

and very difficult to deal with. But I think,

26:46

like you pointed out, that that might

26:48

be why they're arguing for manslaughter here than anything

26:50

else. And they might have a

26:52

chance to because jurors, I also

26:55

think when offered a a way

26:57

for the defendant

27:01

to take responsibility that seems to

27:03

satisfy everybody in the room's concerns,

27:05

they might just go for it. Right.

27:08

Natalie, as always, this was an absolute

27:10

pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you

27:12

for coming on. Where can people find

27:14

out more about you and your YouTube

27:16

channel? Thank you for having

27:19

me, Josh. It's always a pleasure. You

27:21

can find me on YouTube at Natalie

27:23

Lawyer chick and on Twitter at Nat

27:25

Lawyer chick. And you can find me

27:27

on Instagram at Natalie Lawyer chick YouTube.

27:30

Fantastic, you guys should definitely check it

27:32

out. I'm your host Josh

27:34

Ritter, you can find me on Instagram

27:37

and Twitter at Joshua Ritter esq or

27:39

at Joshua Ritter calm. You can find

27:41

our sidebar episodes wherever you get your

27:43

podcasts. And we want to hear from

27:45

you. If you've got questions or comments

27:47

you'd like us to address, shoot us

27:49

your questions with the hashtag CCD. And

27:51

thank you for joining us at the

27:53

Pro-Cran Daily.