0:00

The

0:00

True Crime Society podcast contains adult

0:02

themes and violence and is not intended for all

0:04

audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

0:23

What's up guys wanting to know if it's a true crime Society

0:26

podcast with Stephanie and Olivia. It

0:28

is Thursday, October sixth

0:30

right now. And if you can't

0:32

tell from my voice, I'm kind of sick.

0:35

I ended up getting COVID

0:37

finally. I escaped it for a very

0:39

long time, but it finally

0:41

happened, and I'm very sick.

0:44

my gosh. I can't believe that you sound horrible.

0:48

I'm sorry, but not horrible, but you do

0:50

sound very unwell. Yeah.

0:52

I'm actually doing better. It's

0:54

been this is like my third day of

0:56

having it. The

0:58

first day was really rough.

1:00

I had like a hundred and

1:02

two point four fever. So

1:05

I was really suffering with feeling

1:08

fevery, like, when you're just super super hot

1:10

and then you're just, like, super super cold.

1:12

And then the next day, it just felt like

1:14

really bad cold in my throat hurts. so,

1:16

so, so bad. Like, I felt like I had strep throat.

1:19

And super

1:21

congested. I have a pretty bad

1:23

cough. then my

1:25

fever went down. And now today,

1:28

I don't feel as much like I

1:30

have a cold. Like, I'm still pretty congested

1:33

as you can hear. but now I

1:35

have more so, like, the shortness of breath

1:37

and, like, my chest hurts. So that's

1:39

why it's kinda hard to talk and

1:41

I'm talking a little slower and quieter

1:43

than normal because I just get winded

1:46

so easily. You're a real true

1:48

pop. You look. It's just like that. know,

1:50

like, I feel like it was, you know, can't believe that both

1:52

of us dodged it apparently this far,

1:54

but yeah. I don't know.

1:56

It was probably inevitable, but You're

1:58

doing a great job. Thanks.

2:00

I luckily got three days off

2:02

of work, but I'm supposed to go back tomorrow.

2:06

which is annoying because it's Friday. So it's

2:08

like I'm going back for one day.

2:10

At

2:10

least, I guess, it's only one day. You can get back

2:12

into it a little bit slowly then rather than going

2:14

back on a Monday for the whole day.

2:16

And it's like, I'll feel okay

2:19

when I'm just, like, not doing anything, but then

2:21

I start doing, like, a chore or something.

2:23

And I'm, like, so fucking exhausted.

2:27

It'll take you a while to build your energy back up

2:29

and you yeah. I guess you're stumbling back

2:31

up too. Yeah.

2:34

But Mike hasn't gotten it

2:36

yet. He's still feeling

2:38

fine, I guess. We tested him a few times

2:40

and he's negative. So Like,

2:42

anyone else Kelsey? You know, got it. Like,

2:44

do you know where you got it from?

2:46

No. I mean, one of

2:48

the, like, coworkers also

2:51

called out sick the same day I did because

2:53

he had a fever and like a bad cold.

2:55

And I texted him and I was like, oh,

2:57

I heard you're sick. Well, I just tested

2:59

myself and I have COVID. He was like, well, I

3:01

took he was like, I started feeling sick yesterday

3:03

and I took a test and it was negative. I took a test

3:05

again today and it was negative. And I was like,

3:08

there's no way that we're both sick with bad

3:10

colds of fevers and only one of us has

3:12

COVID. I feel like the

3:14

home rapid tests can

3:16

be quite unreliable. Like I said, I'm not

3:18

a scientist, but I know a guy at work.

3:20

And he was so sick and he could

3:22

not get a positive repetition and he went and

3:24

got a PCR test and he was positive.

3:26

So, yeah, I feel the same way

3:28

because then and then another

3:30

coworker of mine, he texted me as

3:32

like a joke. And he was like, I swear if you

3:35

ruin my not catching

3:37

COVID rain, I'm gonna be pissed. And

3:39

then the next day texted me. He was like, well, I have

3:41

COVID. I feel like

3:43

to again, I'm not a scientist

3:45

or a medical person to say that sometimes

3:48

I feel like the test results

3:50

have to do with the actual viral load too.

3:52

Like, you can have a lower viral load and might not

3:54

test positive on the test. Well, even

3:56

when you're taking the test and you're reading the directions

3:58

and everything, there's so many things where it's like If

4:00

you do this step wrong, it could mess up the

4:02

whole test. If you do this step wrong, it could

4:04

mess up the whole test. It's like you only have to do

4:07

six drops and you could only turn it this many

4:09

times. And I'm like, there's a lot of ways to fuck

4:11

this up. Most of the test when you

4:13

sent me a photo of your test too, your test looks

4:15

so different to ours. I guess there's a lot of

4:17

I've had the ones that the other little

4:19

ones that used to be plastic kind of

4:21

rectangle ones. Yeah. There's all different

4:23

ones. I don't know.

4:25

You just get what you get, I guess. I've

4:27

never ever seen the ones here that you

4:29

have. Maybe that's like an American product

4:32

one. That one's the the Bynax

4:34

ones. Is that a pie is it paper?

4:37

It's like you have a you

4:39

have like a cardboard little booklet

4:41

and it like opens up

4:43

and it's you put in some

4:45

drops of this liquid. There's like

4:47

two holes in it, which is kind of like the

4:49

plastic ones. And so you put the

4:51

drops in and then you swab your nose with

4:53

a swab and then you, like, push

4:55

the nasal swab thing

4:57

into, like, a little pocket kind that's in

4:59

it and you twist it around and then you close

5:01

the cardboard, like, a book over it.

5:04

And then,

5:04

like, little pH strip type

5:06

thing touches it and goes.

5:08

I

5:09

always wonder what impact

5:11

this is gonna have on the environment. All these little

5:13

tiny plastic tests, so

5:15

the cardboard one is more environmentally

5:17

friendly. Yeah. I don't know.

5:19

But I feel like I've just I don't know

5:21

where I got it from. Like, I had to go to

5:23

a work thing. last

5:26

weekend, but then I also, like, went to

5:28

a a fair type thing. And the

5:30

weekend before that, I was upstate. I feel like

5:32

I've done so many things that I

5:34

don't even

5:35

know where I got it from or who I could

5:37

have exposed. But

5:38

all my coworkers are probably gonna blame me because

5:40

I was, like, the first to officially have it, I

5:43

guess. You've

5:45

all dodged it at least long. It was inevitable. And,

5:48

like, listen, I didn't wanna go to the work dinner

5:50

and forced me to. It's

5:53

a good lesson. Good lesson to learn. Yeah.

5:55

Just let me be antisocial.

5:56

for

5:57

Someone actually messaged

5:59

me and said, well, actually a lot of people

6:02

messaged me and told me to get better,

6:04

which thank you for that. A

6:06

lot of them had not suggestions when said in

6:08

the last episode that you were feeling sick. They're like, maybe

6:10

you should should test this and try this so they

6:12

were all Yeah. Yeah. I

6:14

appreciate that. I wonder if that's why I was

6:16

feeling sick too. Like, if I had been exposed already.

6:18

Mhmm. But is

6:21

that what I was gonna say? Oh, yeah. So people

6:23

are messaging me and someone

6:25

I was like, you got COVID because you've been having

6:27

such a fulfilling life lately. And I was like,

6:29

what's true? You

6:31

haven't been home with your cat, so you had a fulfilling

6:34

life. No. Like,

6:36

I've clearly been fulfilled. Like,

6:38

I have COVID now. Oh

6:40

my god. Peep. She's

6:43

sleeping on the keyboard. Stop.

6:45

Nice and warm. I've also

6:47

heard cats can get COVID, so I'm

6:49

just like, nervous.

6:51

Like, what happens if they get COVID?

6:53

I haven't had that.

6:55

I looked it up because I'm a psychopath.

6:59

But nothing else says, like, what happens? They're

7:01

just, like, careful because cats and dogs

7:03

can get COVID. Mhmm. I was, like,

7:05

oh, okay. I feel like

7:07

she'll be fine. Is it a Shea's paper

7:09

Shea already? Yeah. Nice a

7:11

girl. Nice

7:13

a boy. I

7:14

knew there was one of h. I just

7:17

couldn't remember which it

7:17

was with. Yeah.

7:19

ah Oh,

7:22

I forgot to show you. Maybe I did send

7:24

to you, but someone sent a a message

7:26

to the True Crime Society Instagram today

7:28

of some horses playing within achidna,

7:30

and they're like, oh, so that's all I can know is.

7:32

I have to say it to you. I haven't seen it. I

7:34

still haven't seen Elmo again. I like --

7:36

Oh. -- there's been lots of sightings

7:38

of kidney's on our neighborhood Facebook page,

7:40

but he hasn't come back yet. So

7:42

it

7:43

Dude. Dude.

7:45

But anyways, what's what's up with

7:47

you? You're getting ready to go on a trip.

7:50

Yeah. We're flying tomorrow to

7:52

Queensland, which is like a state here

7:54

for anyone who doesn't know it's just the state above

7:56

us, so it'll be a little bit warmer, which

7:58

will be nice. The weather here is again

8:00

crazy. I just feel like a broken record.

8:02

there's some rain bomb coming here tomorrow, I think,

8:04

where there's gonna be tons and tons of rain. But the

8:06

weather up there looks better, which is

8:08

good, Yeah. So

8:10

that'll be exciting. I'm so unorganized. We haven't

8:12

packed. One of my daughters is out of sleep over,

8:14

so we've I'm gonna go and pick her up after

8:16

this get organized pack.

8:19

Yeah. But no. It'll be good. I mean, I'm excited. I

8:21

feel like I've just been away all the time, but I

8:23

guess making up for two

8:25

years of no no holidays or

8:27

no vacations, but that's it now for us for a

8:29

long time. So Yeah. No. It'd be

8:31

nice. We've booked in to go to Dreamworld, which

8:34

is a theme park up there. So

8:36

the kids are

8:36

very excited about that. It would just

8:39

be nice a quick little getaway for a week.

8:41

It could be lovely.

8:42

hopefully no one gets COVID. because I'm

8:45

fucking sick. They're

8:47

the last survivor. Oh.

8:50

I was reading on So here,

8:52

they've stopped doing daily COVID

8:54

updates. So every day, they used to give the COVID

8:56

numbers, I'd say, x thousand per day. Now

8:58

they do it weekly. But

9:00

so the latest update was the

9:02

current wave of COVID continues to decline.

9:04

The hospitalization, is that the

9:06

lowest it has been any time in twenty twenty two?

9:08

I'm like, oh, wow, that's great news. then the

9:10

next thing says, we're closely

9:12

monitoring SG and A target failure and sequencing data

9:14

in relation to BA2 sub lineages.

9:16

There are some early suggestions that BA

9:19

two point seven five infections are

9:21

increasing. So I'm like,

9:23

wow. Here we go again. Just When I

9:25

was reading about mine. I

9:27

saw people saying, like, the BA5 one's

9:29

the worst. Mhmm. But I also thought

9:31

Delta was the worst, so I don't know.

9:33

Anyway, at least that which one

9:35

you have. I don't know. I don't even know if they I

9:37

guess, if you do a proper test, they test for

9:39

it. But Yeah. I don't know.

9:41

Anyway, I

9:42

people some people are gonna hate this because they're like, why are

9:44

you still talking about COVID? I know. I

9:47

was thinking, I was like, people used to be, like, stop

9:49

time on COVID. I'm like, okay. Well, bitch, now I have

9:51

it so I can talk about it. I feel like

9:53

we have stopped, but now we are allowed for

9:55

this few minutes because you have

9:57

COVID now. Yeah. because I sound like

9:59

an asshole.

9:59

Alright.

10:02

Well, we'll

10:03

get on with it now, but excuse

10:06

my suffering. Olivia

10:08

might have to take over for my half, but

10:10

we'll see how it goes. I'll let the

10:12

sound of my own voice. So Yeah. So

10:15

so does everyone because they like your

10:17

accent?

10:19

So before we get on with the episode, we're going to hear a word

10:21

from our sponsor June's journey. I

10:23

feel like Stephanie and I always talk about how

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11:00

have June's journey to play. I was able to

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crush some levels and it really kept

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me busy and entertained

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while I was trapped, quarantined

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in my living room. So I'm

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11:42

Okay. So today, we're gonna talk about

11:44

a case that I think a lot

11:46

of people have probably heard

11:48

of I don't know, actually. Her

11:50

name is Ellen Rae Greenberg, and this

11:52

one,

11:53

it's a

11:54

weird case because there's

11:56

a

11:57

big controversy on if

11:59

her death

11:59

was a suicide or a

12:02

murder because it was ruled a

12:04

suicide, but it kinda seems like

12:06

it not a suicide. So Very

12:08

optimistic case. Yeah.

12:11

Yeah. Not to, like, give anything away in the

12:13

intro, but you'll see as we go

12:15

along. It's very strange.

12:17

So definitely stick around

12:19

if you're you're into that.

12:21

loud

12:22

cars. Anyways,

12:24

it's kind of making those cases, making

12:26

it rounds again and kind of popping up again because

12:29

the case is being reopened

12:31

to act look into the cause of death a

12:33

little bit more because it is so weird.

12:35

So that's why we

12:37

decided that we would cover it because a lot

12:39

of people have been asking that have heard about it. It

12:41

should have been the most joyful time

12:43

of Ellen Greenberg's life. She was

12:45

engaged to be married, so we were planning

12:47

a wedding. The only child of

12:49

Josh in Sandy Greenberg, that's a

12:51

beautiful picture. Twenty seven year old

12:53

Ellen was a beloved first grade

12:55

school teacher in Philadelphia. She

12:57

was just array of

13:00

sunshine. She loved life. She

13:02

loved people and bringing

13:04

people together. But just four days

13:06

after Ellen sent out save the date

13:08

notices for her wedding, the

13:10

unthinkable. I had made dinner.

13:12

We were watching TV.

13:15

and our landline

13:18

rang. Ellen's fiance Sam

13:21

Goldberg, a television producer, had

13:23

gone to the gym when he returned,

13:25

the latch on the apartment was

13:27

locked. Nothing could have prepared him

13:29

for the gruesome discovery behind

13:32

that door.

13:32

I really stopped. The world

13:35

stopped. Yeah. What else could you say?

13:37

Ellen

13:37

was found stabbed twenty times.

13:40

Ten will on the back of her neck,

13:42

one to the scalp, also stabbed

13:44

in the abdomen, and eight times

13:46

to the chest. The knife was

13:48

still lodged in her chest when she

13:50

was found down. But with no forced entry

13:52

and no defense wounds, detectives

13:54

concluded her death was a suicide,

13:57

but her parents strongly disagree. And

13:59

what does that say

13:59

to you? It says

14:01

to be as murder. Okay.

14:02

So this happened in

14:04

two thousand eleven. So we'll start with

14:06

some background on Ellen like we normally

14:09

do. She was born Ellen

14:11

Rae Greenberg on June twenty

14:13

third nineteen eighty three, and she was

14:15

an Olin child and her parents were

14:17

Joshua and Sandra Greenberg, and they

14:19

lived in New York City.

14:21

Ellen graduated from Penn State as a

14:23

communications major and considered

14:25

becoming a speech pathologist. She

14:27

she ended up going to Temple University to

14:29

become a teacher. and she recently

14:31

obtained her master's degree and was certified

14:33

in reading specialty. So at

14:35

the time of her death, Ellen, she was twenty

14:37

seven years old and she was first grade

14:39

teacher in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And

14:42

she lived with her

14:44

partner Samuel Sam Goldberg

14:46

in an apartment in Manny

14:48

Young Philadelphia. Sam was a television

14:50

producer for NBC and

14:52

later golf dot com. We believe

14:54

that they had been a couple

14:56

for three years and got

14:58

engaged in the summer of two thousand

15:00

ten. So on January twenty six, two

15:02

thousand eleven, The weather is

15:04

bad, and the school alum talked closed

15:06

early so everyone could get home before the

15:08

blizzard. There's a really comprehensive

15:10

website called gavinfish dot com.

15:12

It's GAVINFISH

15:15

dot com. There's a lot of official

15:17

documents there on the case, so some

15:19

of the information that we

15:21

got This episode is from there, but it's worth checking

15:23

out if you guys wanna see

15:25

some of the documents from the case. I

15:27

have to say it's one of the most comprehensive

15:29

websites I have ever seen in my life. He's

15:31

done such a good job. He's covered a few

15:33

other cases as well. But when

15:35

I came across like, oh, my

15:37

goodness. I I have never ever ever seen such a good

15:39

website. Yeah. Yeah.

15:41

There's so much information.

15:42

Yep. Okay.

15:43

So on the day that this happened,

15:46

Sam the fiancee, he

15:48

left the apartment around four forty five

15:50

PM to go to the gym. So

15:53

from how the medical examiner report

15:55

reads, Ellen, she was at

15:57

home. It says he left the

15:59

decision to go to the gym. So

16:01

interestingly, it states that

16:03

Sam was wearing Timberland boots to go to the

16:05

gym, which some people have pointed

16:07

out as being unusual, which

16:10

obviously it would be. I think it is unusual,

16:12

but then he could have been going to

16:14

do his arms, could have been an arm day, like,

16:16

you know, I feel like there's if

16:18

you if you just if your gym is in your building,

16:20

you can just pop down for a little bit. You know what

16:22

I mean? Like, it's not it's

16:25

unusual, but it's not

16:26

totally out of the realm of something that someone

16:28

would do.

16:29

Yeah. I wonder if it was in the building

16:31

or if it was in, like, if it was an apartment

16:34

complex. I think what I've read is

16:36

that the fitness room was

16:38

either in the basement or kind of the ground floor,

16:40

so they're on the six floor, I believe. So --

16:42

Mhmm. -- it was still in the complex. He didn't have

16:44

to leave the complex to go to the

16:46

gym, but it was But I

16:48

was wondering if you because

16:51

sometimes, like, here when it snows,

16:53

I'll wear, like, winter boots to go

16:55

where I'm going when it's snowy, but now changing

16:57

to, like, regular shoes to wear for the day

16:59

at work or something. Yeah. So I was like, maybe he

17:01

put those on if it was snowing,

17:03

but that wouldn't make sense if he didn't have to go

17:05

outside. There's some photos online which I'll

17:07

put on the blog of the fitness room I assume.

17:09

Like, it looks like a very nice

17:11

apartment complex. I don't know if it's been

17:13

renovated since they lived there because

17:15

it all looks very new. The fitness

17:17

room looks amazing. There's

17:19

like treadmills. Like, it

17:21

looks very high-tech. So,

17:22

you know, yeah, it's it

17:24

looks

17:24

like a very nice place to

17:27

live. Yeah.

17:27

But keep note of the the

17:29

boots because that's like a big point,

17:31

discussion point to people. Yeah.

17:34

So Sam came back to their apartment between five fifteen

17:36

and five thirty. So he wasn't

17:38

gone very long. He was only gone.

17:41

like half an hour, I think. A half an hour -- Yeah.

17:43

-- forty five minutes. Yeah. So

17:45

he had his keys, but he was unable to

17:47

unlock the door because it was

17:49

bolted from the inside. It had one of

17:52

those it wasn't, like, a

17:54

deadbolt. It's, like, one of those hotel latch

17:56

locks. Out of black after, like, flaps

17:58

over. You flip it over the peg

18:00

on one side of the door. I've there's photos of

18:02

the actual latch on the blog too if you wanna have a

18:04

look at exactly what we mean. Yeah. It's like

18:06

the hotels usually have it. Some apartments

18:09

have it, but the one that flips over.

18:11

So since he couldn't get in,

18:13

he started frankly trying to get in touch

18:15

with Ellen, he called her, sent her

18:17

text messages and emails for around an

18:19

hour with no response. did he call

18:21

her? because I saw some people being like, well, why won't he

18:23

just call her? So

18:26

a lot of

18:28

the who he actually called

18:30

is redacted. I don't actually know if he

18:32

did call Ellen, but it says, I

18:34

think he sent her an

18:37

email and text. You definitely send her an email and

18:39

text. I'm not entirely sure if you tried to call

18:41

her. I feel like I have heard in other

18:43

podcasts that he did and she didn't

18:45

answer. But I'm not that isn't in the

18:47

medical examiner report, so I'm not

18:49

entirely sure on that. But he sent

18:51

her an email. No.

18:53

He sent her nine texts. So, like,

18:55

I don't know. I'm you know, if

18:57

I couldn't get into my house, I'd be messaging

18:59

Joe and I'd be like, hi. What where

19:01

are you? What's going on? Why aren't you opening the door? You

19:04

know, like but he kind of And

19:06

I would just be, like, calling, like,

19:08

nonstop. and bank yeah. Like, it's only an apartment.

19:10

Like, you like, I guess, he probably banged for

19:12

a while, but no. These are the checks that he sent.

19:14

He sent nine checks apparently. So the first

19:16

one said, hello. second one said open

19:18

the door, the third one, what are

19:20

you doing? The next one, I'm getting

19:23

pissed. The fifth one, hello. Six

19:25

one, you better have an excuse. Seven, what

19:28

the fuck? Eight

19:29

are, like, AHHH

19:32

No

19:32

treatment. Yeah. Like, me in.

19:35

Nine. You you have no

19:37

idea. So,

19:38

I don't know, interesting

19:39

messages to send to,

19:42

you know, your partner when you're when you've

19:44

been locked out of the house, seems

19:47

kind of like a douche bag. Yeah.

19:50

Yeah. There was like a an in not an

19:52

instant. There was a time a few weeks ago where I couldn't get a

19:54

hold of Joe. My husband is always on his

19:56

phone. So when I couldn't get hold of him for an hour, I'm like, oh

19:58

my gosh, what's happened? What's happened like, my

20:00

message is like, are you okay? Where are you? What's happened?

20:02

Yeah. But it would be like, you

20:04

fucking piece of shit. You better have an

20:06

excuse. So, yeah, it does seem

20:08

very mad. for someone

20:09

who aggressive? Yeah. Yeah.

20:11

So

20:11

after she didn't answer, Sam ended up

20:14

forcing his weight inside. and immediately

20:17

discovered Ellen on the floor of their

20:19

kitchen. Her upper body was propped up

20:21

against the cabinets and her legs were splayed

20:23

out in front of her. A call

20:24

for help was made at six thirty

20:27

three PM. He was

20:28

briefly told to start CPR, but he

20:30

stopped on she noticed a knife sticking out

20:32

of Ellen's chest. Medics responded and

20:35

pronounced Ellen Dead at six forty

20:37

PM. This is the nine to one call. It's

20:39

five minutes long, but I'm just gonna put the whole clip

20:41

in. It doesn't really seem five minutes because it's

20:43

interesting. So we'll play

20:45

that here.

20:47

picking

20:50

up. I just I just walked the right time line.

20:52

See, I think I don't have floor with blood

20:54

everywhere. What is the address? Forty

20:56

601 Flat Rock Road. Please call

20:58

me 101 Road, o

21:01

one, Lake Rock Road. Is it the

21:03

house or apartment? Oh,

21:05

no. Well, no.

21:07

It's apartment. What apart

21:09

number? Please hurry, please.

21:11

She's bleeding. She I don't know. I can't

21:13

tell you. Sure. So you have

21:15

to calm yourself down in order to get

21:18

you well. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She I don't know. I I'm

21:20

looking at her right now.

21:23

She helped.

21:24

I can't see anything. She didn't notice

21:26

nothing broken. She please. Elly,

21:28

you don't know

21:28

where she's bleeding from. Can't Oh, he's not

21:31

coming from? It's I

21:31

think her head. I think she hit her head, I

21:34

think. But it's our bottom everywhere.

21:36

I hope it's everywhere.

21:37

might have fallen? Do you know what

21:39

happened? She she may have slipped his blood on

21:42

the on the table. Her her face is a

21:44

little purple. Okay. Hold on for

21:46

rescue for her to be on the

21:48

phone.

21:59

or

22:02

Forty 601 Flat Rock Road, please,

22:05

Harry. Forty 601

22:06

Flat Rock?

22:07

Yes. My

22:10

like, I just my I went downstairs

22:12

to go work out. I came back up. The

22:14

door was latched. My fiance's

22:16

inside. She wasn't she wasn't answering. So

22:18

after about a half hour, I decided to break it

22:21

down. I see her now just on the floor

22:23

with blood. She's not she's not

22:25

responding.

22:25

Okay. breathing? Yeah. I

22:28

can't. Look at her chest. I need you to

22:30

calm down. I need you to look her chest as well. I

22:32

don't think she I really don't think she can't.

22:34

Listen, tell me someone's on

22:36

the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her

22:38

back? She's on her back. Like, where you're Look at her

22:40

chest and tell me if it's going up and down,

22:42

up and down.

22:43

I don't see her moving. Okay. Do

22:45

you know how to do CPR? I

22:48

don't. Okay. I

22:48

can tell you what to do. Okay? And so they get

22:50

there. I want you to keep her for a moment.

22:53

Yeah. Hi. Okay. Well, let me just see if you

22:55

are with me over the phone so they can

22:57

III have to. Right?

22:58

Okay. So you're gonna flat on her back. But you're her

23:01

chest. That ain't longer for sure

23:03

at all. Right. I'm trying

23:05

to kneel down by her

23:06

side. Oh my god. Ali,

23:09

please. Listen. You can't freak out,

23:11

sir, because Okay. I'm trying not don't

23:13

try not her shirt won't come off as a

23:15

zipper. Right. On the right. She stands

23:17

herself. Where? She's thrown

23:19

a knife. Oh, no. Her knife sticking

23:21

out. A what? Doesn't

23:23

that take me out of her heart?

23:25

Oh, she

23:25

stands herself?

23:27

I I guess so. I don't know where she's going.

23:29

I don't know. Okay. Well,

23:30

don't touch it. Okay. So I just

23:32

put his letter here now. I mean, what do I do?

23:34

No. I mean, you

23:34

can't is it nicer that her chest is gonna

23:36

be kinda hard for you to do CPR

23:39

at this Oh,

23:40

no. Oh, my goodness.

23:42

Okay? Delete which app reader? Just

23:44

seven seven. Just so we're calling here?

23:46

Yes. They are. You said forty 601

23:48

flat. Right? Right? Yes. Okay.

23:51

Someone's on the way. And the night is

23:53

still inside? Yeah. Which or what? The

23:55

night is still inside of her? Yes. I didn't

23:57

take it out. Was it a chest or area did

24:00

it? It's like it looks like it's

24:02

red. It looks like it's red at

24:04

her heart. Okay.

24:06

Someone's on the way out there. Can you just keep Oh

24:08

my god. Oh my god. How old is

24:10

she? She's twenty seven. Twenty

24:12

seven. Is Oceana Life Bill?

24:14

No. No. No.

24:17

No. Please. Don't please. What? I've been trying

24:19

to her arm and told me she was fine to say.

24:23

Gotcha. Ellie. She's

24:26

nice. She's not her arm. Her hands are still warm.

24:28

I don't know what that means. But his blood I

24:30

mean, I know, but you can't. And the nice is still

24:32

inside of her. How far? Can you see how far

24:34

I went in? It looks pretty deep.

24:37

Okay. It looks three hundred to one night.

24:38

Don't touch anything. Yeah. Don't

24:40

touch anything. Okay. I'm not touching anything.

24:42

It says, we I can't believe this, though. Don't

24:44

worry. It was just you dear with

24:46

her? We yeah. We're the only

24:48

ones here. The screen in the door, you

24:50

said, left is shut? No. No. III

24:53

went downstairs to work out,

24:55

and I when I came back up, the door

24:57

was latched. Like, it

24:59

was, you know, it wasn't, like, you know, it was, like, locked

25:01

from the inside. And

25:03

I'm yelling, And I'll

25:05

show him some No.

25:08

No. No. No. No. So no

25:09

sign of a break in? No. No sign of a break in. No. No sign of

25:11

a break in it. I mean, there will be when you get here,

25:13

because I had to break

25:14

the latch, but to

25:17

get in. Okay.

25:18

Forty 601 foot rock, and this

25:20

is a house. Right? It's an apartment fire

25:23

micro apartment Oh my god.

25:25

Oh my god. Alright. Thank you. Mhmm.

25:28

Bye.

25:31

I've

25:31

seen a lot of comments where people say this is one of the most

25:33

kind of bizarre and interesting nonnormal calls

25:35

that they've ever heard, and I would have to

25:37

agree with that. Like you

25:40

can hear that he calls and he's like, she's head

25:42

ahead. She's head ahead. There's I think he says

25:44

there's not much blood. But

25:47

then he doesn't discover that there's a

25:49

knife sticking out of her chest until they tell him

25:51

to do CPR. Obviously,

25:53

a lot of people are suspicious

25:56

of Sam, the fiance, and the end.

25:58

But part of me is like some of the stuff he's

25:59

saying in this call is like too fucking

26:02

stupid, to be honest, to

26:04

be like, he planned this in

26:06

advance and knows what's going on

26:08

because I'm like, I

26:09

feel like he's under the assumption

26:11

that since the door was

26:14

locked, that no one was inside.

26:16

So he just assumes initially

26:18

that she fell and hurt herself somehow

26:21

because if the doors locked, he's like no one got

26:23

in here and murdered her. And

26:25

then I'm like wondering, he didn't

26:27

see the knife. So like, was

26:29

her hair covering it? Maybe, like, it's a big knife even

26:31

though it's in the chest. There's photos of

26:33

the knife, I'll put there from the Gavin Fish website, I'll

26:35

put them on the blob too, but it's a steak knife. It's

26:38

not like It's a tiny little parry

26:40

knife. It would have been sticking out of

26:42

the the, what do you call it, handle. It would have

26:44

been sticking out of her chest. I I

26:46

can't believe And especially if she's sitting up, like,

26:48

he she they said she was kind of found

26:50

propped against the cabinets.

26:52

Yeah. I'm wondering if maybe her hair was over

26:55

it. Yeah. I don't know. That's why I'm

26:57

also interested in how he couldn't see a

26:59

steak knife sticking out of her

27:01

chest. Yeah. And so then

27:03

once

27:03

he sees they tell him, like, to start doing

27:06

CPR.

27:06

And then when he sees the knife,

27:08

he's like, oh my god. She stabbed

27:11

herself. would you think be, like, a weird thing

27:13

to assume automatically? But I

27:15

think, again, he was going off of,

27:17

like, no one was inside but her because the

27:19

doors locked and they lived on the six four, so

27:21

no one else get in. There was

27:23

also, like, maybe she fell on the knife,

27:25

which is a dumb thing to say

27:27

too. Yeah. I I was gonna say something, but

27:29

it's getting ahead. We can talk about it

27:31

later. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's hard to the because some of it would

27:33

go more into, like, theories. So but, yeah,

27:35

a lot of what he says is just

27:37

fucking

27:37

stupid, I think.

27:38

And even I found it interesting how

27:41

I'm paraphrasing, but when she says something to him,

27:43

like, is she laying flat on the floor? And he's like,

27:45

yeah. Yeah. Like, when he when she tells him to

27:47

start CPR, Well,

27:49

other reports say that she was

27:51

kind of bound up. Yeah. So I don't know

27:53

that Some of you moved her.

27:56

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know either.

27:58

Anyway, interesting. Just kind of little

27:59

discrepancies and differences are

28:02

interesting.

28:02

And I think a lot of people, if you probably listen

28:05

to the call, he doesn't seem, like,

28:07

to like, he seems to just

28:09

drop, but he's not, like, crying or upset

28:11

or anything. And he

28:15

seems more like his adrenaline's going and

28:17

he's, like, in shock. Yeah. Like, which I

28:19

feel like is understandable. So But some

28:21

people are like, he's he doesn't sound upset. But I think

28:23

he's just, like, your

28:25

adrenaline's just pumping at that point. Like, he can't even

28:27

believe it. Like, even

28:28

when when I saw

28:29

someone get hit by a car and I had to call nine eleven, and

28:31

that, like, wasn't even someone I fucking cared

28:33

about or anything like that. But I still, like,

28:35

my adrenaline was going and just kinda get in this zone

28:38

of, like, And then later, you're like, what the hell

28:40

just happened? Like No. No.

28:42

It's weird. And and it is like,

28:44

I know, obviously, you don't know

28:47

along the lines of what you're how you'd react in a situation like

28:49

this, but it is very over

28:51

the top. It's hysterical.

28:54

Maybe that is how he just reacts

28:56

because of the situation. Maybe there's another

28:59

reason for it, you know, I don't know. But it's

29:01

it's a very interesting nine or one

29:03

call.

29:03

yeah Yeah. but we'll

29:04

get into more of our thoughts on him at

29:06

the end. So

29:09

this info about the scene comes from

29:11

the medical examiner report

29:13

Alright. So I won't read all of it because the whole thing's on

29:15

the blog. The whole medical examiner report is

29:17

four pages long. But

29:20

basically, I'll just find

29:22

some stuff. It does say in

29:25

this and so what what I've

29:27

read some of some reports is

29:30

that Sam when he couldn't get into the apartment. He went and spoke

29:32

to the apartment complex security

29:34

guy and asked him to come up and

29:36

break down the door. And the medical

29:38

examiner report does say an

29:40

apartment security man was reportedly

29:42

present during the entry. So

29:44

does that's kind of interesting and we'll talk more about

29:46

that in a minute. but it says he

29:48

immediately discovered her and called nine

29:50

eleven. He was briefly instructed to

29:52

start CPR until he noticed a knife in

29:54

her chest and then he was instructed to

29:56

stop. And

29:57

this I find this. This

29:59

is about the

29:59

actual scene. It says the apartment is well

30:02

kept and clean. The inside

30:04

lot to the front door, a common latch solid bar door guard

30:06

is broken with the screws on the door

30:08

loose, obviously, forced to ring a locked position.

30:11

throughout the entire apartment. There is no

30:13

evidence of a struggle. Furniture and items

30:16

appear in place. Nothing is obviously missing or

30:18

disturbed. There are numerous valuables

30:20

present, money keys, free laptop. And

30:24

then it says that one of the laptops was

30:26

open with wedding material on it, and

30:28

then there was a work computer with her work

30:30

stuff on it. There was nothing

30:32

indicative of suicide on the computers or

30:34

the rest of the apartment. The only way to

30:36

exit the apartment with the front door door

30:38

locked is through a rear sliding

30:40

patio door. The patio is six stories

30:42

high and there is no present with no

30:44

tracks or footprints. So that kind of

30:46

implies that no one could have got out

30:48

that way. Yeah. I'll

30:50

just see. So it goes

30:52

in at least the text,

30:55

that Sam center. and

30:57

that it also says they found prescription medication on

30:59

a bedstand. There's alprazolam,

31:03

clonazepam, and Zolpiam. So her

31:05

journal was there And

31:07

it goes in it goes into

31:09

detail about how they found Ellen.

31:11

It says the decident is on the hardwood

31:13

kitchen floor located just inside the

31:16

entrance. She's found with her head and some

31:18

of her upper body shoulders resting

31:20

against the lower half of the white kitchen cabinets

31:22

next to the range, which indicates to me that

31:24

she wasn't lying flat on the floor. unless I

31:26

guess he propped her up again. Maybe I don't

31:28

know. But upon further examination, she

31:30

has a knife embedded in her left chest through

31:32

her clothing. There are multiple stab wounds.

31:35

and it goes on.

31:37

Her body is cool to the touch. Findings

31:40

are consistent with the current position

31:42

of the body. There's blood on her head, in her hair, and on her

31:44

neck. The right hand has blood on it.

31:47

And there are photos on the Gavin Fish

31:49

website of the scene and the

31:51

blood. There isn't a whole lot of blood. There's I'm

31:53

scrolling down. So there's

31:55

you can see there's like

31:57

a a

31:57

small pool of blood on the floor.

31:59

There's some blood droplets on the floor and kind of

32:02

a smear of blood on the cabinet,

32:04

but I feel like that isn't very

32:06

much blood for someone who suffered the amount of

32:08

injuries that she did. Yep.

32:10

You would think there'd

32:11

be like tons of blood. Yep.

32:13

It says there are two kitchen

32:15

knives in the sink, but they don't have any blood

32:17

or tissue on them.

32:19

And basically, it looked like that she had

32:21

been cutting up fruit around the toilet.

32:23

There was cut up fruit and things like that

32:25

in the sink. But that's that's kind

32:28

of the main interesting

32:29

points from the medical examiner

32:32

report that we haven't covered yet.

32:34

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32:34

with the episode, we're going to hear a word from our

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33:55

There's some reports that Sam

33:58

called family members before calling

33:59

901 or before the police

34:02

arrived. One member is reported to

34:04

be judge James c Schwartzman,

34:07

who is chair of the ethics and professional

34:10

responsibility group. Judge Schwartzman was also appointed by governor Tom

34:12

Walsh to the court of judicial

34:14

discipline in May

34:16

twenty eighteen. So

34:18

I guess that's like a family friend of theirs. So people have pointed out that

34:20

it's weird that he would panic and kind

34:22

of call a high power judge.

34:26

Yeah. Which is a red flag to some people, especially

34:28

before he called nine eleven. Yeah.

34:30

Like, we think that would be the

34:32

most important call to make if

34:34

you just randomly found your girlfriend dead in the kitchen. Yeah.

34:38

Even if at that point, he had still only

34:40

thought she had, like, fallen and

34:42

was unconscious. It's

34:44

still, like, try to help her first. I don't

34:46

know. And I feel

34:47

like if he did actually try to

34:49

go over there and help her, he would have

34:51

seen the knife, you know, Yep.

34:53

I don't know. So

34:56

there's a podcast on this case by the

34:58

prosecutors. And according to

35:00

them, Sam called his cousin and then

35:02

his uncle which is the

35:03

judge of well, I said he was a family friend, but

35:06

so the uncle

35:06

arrived at the apartment complex one minute after

35:09

Sam ended the name on

35:11

one call. So kind of weird that, like, we're saying that he called

35:13

his uncle who's a judge and had him come

35:16

over. Like, if you just walked

35:18

in on the scene and she fell

35:20

by accident, or if something bad happened to

35:22

her, that wouldn't have been a concern of mine, I

35:24

don't think. I'm assuming that maybe the

35:26

cousin was the uncle's son, so maybe he called

35:28

the cousin. He's like,

35:30

hey. It's he there. He's out there. Okay. Yep. Yep. Okay. I'll call

35:32

him. So yeah. Yeah.

35:34

So as we mentioned in the medical examiner

35:36

report, it does say

35:38

that the security meant

35:40

reportedly was there when Sam

35:42

broke down the door. I actually believe that

35:44

this isn't true and this is

35:46

kind of a

35:48

big reason why some people think Sam was

35:50

involved that he told people the security guard

35:52

was there and

35:54

it insinuates that, you know, he wasn't

35:56

alone and someone was at a witness at. But

35:58

the guard, I believe, has spoken to

35:59

reporters and kind of media sources

36:02

since this and has said

36:04

that he wasn't there when

36:06

Sam broke down the door and that he actually

36:08

refused to leave his kind of guardpost

36:10

to help him, which makes sense to

36:12

me because, you know, you can't just be as a security guard

36:14

for an apartment complex going to break into

36:16

people's apartment if they ask you

36:17

to. Like, it's not,

36:20

you know, it's not his job to do that. And there are some photos

36:22

online too of who I

36:24

assume is probably the security guard when the

36:26

police get

36:28

air, so he is kind of down in the foyer, letting

36:30

them in, it looks like. Yeah.

36:32

Probably where he's supposed to be.

36:35

Yep. So I have read too that there's

36:37

no way to really verify

36:40

this either way because they there are

36:42

cameras in the building but only at the entrances

36:44

and kind of the exit. There's no cameras in the

36:46

hallway, so you can't

36:48

see who was up there when he broke in.

36:50

But it's a very interesting point. One that I

36:52

know has been discussed a lot in

36:54

relation to the actual

36:56

timeline of this case.

36:58

Yeah. So, following

37:00

an autopsy, Ellen was found to have suffered

37:02

twenty stab wounds with on her back

37:04

and neck, a knife with a twelve

37:06

point five, a knife with a twelve

37:08

and a half centimeter blade was found

37:10

in her chest at the depth of

37:13

ten centimeters. So like we're saying before, it's

37:15

a pretty big knife. In two and a

37:17

half inches of it, we're

37:19

still sticking out Yeah. So even like the Blade alone is twelve and

37:21

a half centimeters, I'm assuming that kind of has a handle.

37:24

Yeah. Similar. So, like, it's a big

37:26

knife. It's

37:28

not. just a small pairing knife or something like that that you

37:29

may miss. There's yeah.

37:32

Yeah. Yeah. And

37:33

the the knife was a cut co

37:35

brand steak knife.

37:38

So there's pictures I would go look at the pictures

37:40

online if you can because it really makes you

37:42

be like, how is this a suicide? It shows

37:45

just all the it's on like a mannequin or

37:47

something. It's not the actual crime scene. They're not actual

37:50

crime scene photos. They're kind of, I guess,

37:52

recreations of

37:54

Yeah. So it shows like the knife and kind of like how deep it went in with

37:56

each stab wound. But it really makes you

37:58

be like, there's no way someone could do this

38:02

to themselves. Yeah. And even like the position of the neck like yeah,

38:04

it's crazy. I definitely recommend going to check

38:06

it out. Like, some of the photos

38:08

they they've they've put

38:11

all the stab wounds together. So you can kind of

38:13

see where they were concentrated,

38:16

the depth that they were in her

38:18

body. Like, it's a it's a very

38:20

comprehensive recreation of the injuries that she suffered. Yeah.

38:24

And I did see someone point

38:26

out I was reading, like,

38:28

theories online. that even though it does

38:30

say she was stabbed in the back however

38:32

many times, there's no stabs in her

38:34

actual back. It's more like at the back

38:36

of her neck and

38:38

head. So That's why the

38:40

suicide theory is plausible to some

38:42

people because there are places that she

38:44

could technically reach. It's not

38:46

like a spot in the middle of her back that would

38:48

have been impossible to reach, but I think

38:50

it would be hard to do to the prosecutor's podcast on this. They said

38:52

the same thing. They're basically like, it is

38:54

possible. This, you know, this could be a

38:56

suicide she

38:58

could have reached those places. But why would you like, if you

39:00

wanted to really kill yourself and why would

39:02

you bother you? There's many places she could

39:05

have stabbed herself in an easier

39:08

Do you want

39:08

to make, like, an easier way to get it done? Yeah. And she had a

39:10

bunch of medications that she could have overdosed on.

39:13

There's a lot

39:15

of easier ways So according to

39:17

the generation y podcast, the only DNA that they

39:19

found on the knife was Ellen's,

39:21

though. So please interviewed Ellen's family about

39:23

her state of mind before

39:26

she died. her mother said they had spoken at seven AM on

39:28

the day of her death while they were both

39:30

going to work. Sandra said their

39:32

conversation was

39:34

pleasant. Sandra did say that Ellen had been struggling with selling since the end

39:36

of twenty ten and that she had urged

39:38

her to get professional help.

39:41

It's also believed that Ellen told her parents she wanted to move back

39:43

home a month before she

39:46

died. So Ellen began seeing a

39:48

psychiatrist named

39:50

Ellen Berman And since there's multiple elements,

39:52

obviously, we'll just refer to the psychiatrist

39:54

as the psychiatrist. Ellen

39:56

only intended three appointments with the

39:58

psychiatrist

39:59

on January twelve, seventeen, and nineteenth. So just days

40:02

before she died essentially. And it was

40:04

kind of weird it's weird that

40:05

how frequently that was, like, the seventeenth

40:07

and the nineteenth.

40:10

Yeah. I wonder if something was going on that

40:12

she felt like she needed to go back right away.

40:14

Another appointment had been scheduled

40:15

for January twenty

40:18

seventh The psychiatrist said that Ellen presented with severe

40:20

anxiety and that she had been experiencing

40:22

it for two months. The psychiatrist said

40:24

that Ellen was having

40:25

trouble at work and that she

40:28

felt pressured and overwhelmed. Ellen had also been struggling

40:30

with some difficult students and she wasn't sure

40:32

whether she should quit her job or

40:34

attempt to work it out. The

40:36

psychiatrist was in the process of developing a treatment plan for Ellen, and

40:38

Ellen's mother had also been in touch

40:40

with the psychiatrist as she had

40:42

expressed concerns about her daughter.

40:44

her daughter The psychiatrist

40:46

has said that there were never any suicidal

40:48

thoughts expressed by Ellen and that she had

40:50

only good things to say about Sam.

40:52

The psychiatrist asked if Samuel had ever been abusive and Ellen denied that

40:55

there had ever been any verbal or

40:57

physical abuse. Ellen was uneasy

40:59

about taking

40:59

medication and

41:02

she was first prescribed Zoloft, and then she switched to

41:04

Xanax. It seems like

41:06

maybe

41:06

that she was prescribed

41:07

these before seeing the psychiatrist because it

41:09

seems like it would have

41:11

been a short time frame for her to be

41:13

starting and switching medications, but not

41:16

really sure on that.

41:18

If she But, yeah, I don't

41:19

know either. Like, it's just seemed it kind of

41:22

implies that the psychiatrist was the

41:24

one to prescribe these to Ellen, but that

41:26

was in a one week time frame.

41:28

Surely Maybe she prescribed it and then she

41:30

never took it and was like, oh,

41:32

what? because I know people have kind of done that

41:34

where they'd be like, oh, I'm scared to

41:36

take this like, I heard bad things about it, and then they're they're made. They're like,

41:38

oh, well, maybe how about this? But

41:40

summation never end up

41:40

really taking any of them, but

41:44

just, like, got

41:44

the prescription changed. I don't know. Yeah. Cool. because it

41:46

is weird because it seemed like she

41:47

was going weekly, but then there was that one,

41:49

like, seventeenth and then

41:52

the nineteenth. I don't

41:54

know. Very, yeah, very

41:56

strange. Ellen apparently had

41:58

no success with either either

41:59

medication was prescribed ambient in colon

42:02

opinion by the psychiatrist to help her sleep. The death

42:04

investigation report into Ellen's

42:06

case notes that she was anxious,

42:08

insecure, not sure of herself, and was not

42:10

liking how

42:12

she felt. Interestingly, the day of Elm's death

42:14

was the same day that school gradates were

42:16

due to be handed in, so that might

42:18

have been saying that gave her some

42:20

more pressure.

42:20

her some more pressure Please search

42:22

Ellen's computer for any clues as to what

42:24

happened to her. In December twenty twenty,

42:26

she or someone using her computer

42:28

searched for the following things.

42:32

suffocation, suicide methods, sex,

42:34

fantasy death,

42:35

Zoloft, Prozac,

42:38

Sertraline, searching, weight gain, depression,

42:40

bath death, electrocuted to

42:42

death trying to Twitter in

42:46

the bath. quick

42:46

suicide, euthanasia, painless suicide.

42:49

When

42:49

it says that they she searched for

42:51

those, she searched

42:54

some of those terms, but she also read some of the other

42:56

articles. So I'm pretty sure she didn't search for

42:58

electrocuted to death, trying to Twitter in

43:00

the bath, but she read an article about that.

43:03

So included them in their

43:06

history as well. Yeah. Basically, her

43:08

search and browsing history.

43:10

Yeah. because that

43:10

was, like, bath, death, and then that

43:13

yeah Yep. But

43:14

also how she searched, searched

43:17

her lane and weight

43:18

gain? Maybe that could've been one thing with the medication.

43:20

Like, maybe she'll up and saw that causes weight gain. I was

43:22

like, I don't wanna take that because I don't wanna gain weight.

43:24

So then they switched the medication. Yeah.

43:27

She

43:27

seems like she was concerned about

43:29

stuff like that. So they did

43:31

conduct toxicology investigation into her death. It says

43:34

that she was negative for benzos,

43:36

fentanyl, and

43:38

opiates. but that she'd have

43:40

Zolpodium and clonazepam in

43:42

her system. So it says there's

43:44

trace amounts of Zolpodium and Clinazepam

43:48

was present. So that seems to

43:50

be all it's only a one page toxicology report,

43:52

so that seems to be kind of all that

43:54

was found in her system at the time. Yeah.

43:56

And she was prescribed both of those? Yep. So

43:58

following

43:59

the autopsy,

43:59

the Philadelphia medical examiner's

44:02

office, initially ruled the case as

44:04

a homicide.

44:06

However, the next day, the Philadelphia police department backtracked and

44:08

stated that the death of Ellen Greenberg

44:10

has not been ruled a homicide homicide

44:14

investigators are considering the manner of death as

44:16

suspicious at this time.

44:18

But then the case was reversed and

44:20

officially ruled a suicide

44:22

in February to that eleven.

44:24

So one year after Ellen died in

44:26

January two thousand and twelve, doctor Cyril Wecht

44:28

gave his opinion on the case. I

44:30

like most of you guys will know who that is because he

44:32

always seems to pop up on True Crime TV and Media. We've

44:35

definitely done this before.

44:36

we buy them before I

44:38

feel like he did not Diane. Am I wrong on that? I

44:40

feel like he did feel like Yeah.

44:42

Yeah. I think so. Anyway,

44:45

he's probably best known for his criticism of

44:47

the Warren Commission's findings concerning the

44:50

assassination of JFK.

44:52

So he did a five page

44:54

report on Ellen's case.

44:56

I'll put it all on the blog. We won't

44:58

read the whole thing because it's

45:00

long.

45:00

But he just goes into what we've already spoken about door

45:02

was locked, the knife that was found,

45:04

how the mother knew that Ellen

45:06

was struggling with something. So he does

45:09

kind of address maybe the mental

45:11

health issues that she was facing at the time.

45:14

There is

45:14

he does talk about that Ellen emailed

45:18

a friend on the day that she died and the friends said, yeah, getting out early,

45:20

you know, meaning about the Blizzard finishing

45:22

school early. And Ellen wrote, thank goodness,

45:25

which I think is a

45:28

pretty you know, normal reply for someone who gets to finish work a bit

45:30

early. Right. He he

45:32

goes in and he lists that all the

45:34

wounds that she had. Anyway,

45:38

so it just

45:39

basically goes through her case

45:41

again, and it says

45:44

a suicide and will really stab herself through her clothing. Instead, she

45:46

will open her shirt to expose the

45:48

skin. Stubbing through clothing

45:50

may indicate comercide is

45:52

not known if fingerprints on the knife were

45:54

taken and examined. And

45:56

his

45:56

opinion of

45:57

the case following his

46:00

review is The results of the autopsy and the accounts from the

46:02

investigation based upon reasonable degree of

46:04

medical certainty, it is my professional

46:06

opinion that the manor of death of Ellen

46:08

Greenberg is

46:10

strongly ficious of homicide.

46:12

So that was his

46:14

determination for

46:15

the case. It's interesting about

46:17

the clothing thing. Like, that

46:19

they you, like, move the clothing when you're

46:22

gonna suicide. Guess you

46:24

probably would have never really thought about it, but you would

46:26

think if

46:28

there's less things to cut through. It's probably just like a subconscious thing

46:30

that you do. Yeah.

46:32

Yep. So

46:35

there was also a forensic scientist named Henry Lee

46:37

who is known for testifying for the

46:39

defense in the OJ Simpson case. He

46:41

had the same opinion as doctor Wecht. He

46:43

said the number and time of wounds

46:45

and blood strain patterns observed are

46:48

consistent with the homicide scene.

46:50

So Ellen's parents always

46:52

tried to get kind of media attention

46:54

for her case and to keep it out there. In

46:57

two thousand and nineteen in October, her

46:59

parents filed a civil suit

47:02

against a Philadelphia medical examiner's office and against doctor Mylan

47:04

Osborn. That was the pathologist

47:06

who had conducted the autopsy originally.

47:09

They requested that Ellen's manner of death be changed

47:11

from suicide, either homicide or

47:14

underdement. My mother Sandra said, we wanna see justice

47:16

prevail. She would never

47:18

hurt herself She would never hurt anyone else. She was a kind loving

47:20

ray of sunshine. So one

47:22

of the key arguments in the lawsuit came

47:24

from new pieces

47:26

of evidence which was A3D anatomical re creation, which think

47:28

may be what is on the Gavin Fish website,

47:30

which illustrates the size, depth

47:32

and length of each wound, including her

47:36

final chord. Her father said the key wound in this whole

47:38

thing is the spinal wound. And from what

47:40

I know, the spinal wound on the back of the

47:42

neck was in an upward direction

47:45

severing the spine, possibly damaging

47:47

the brain. If you try to do that

47:49

yourself and put it behind your back, it would

47:51

be very hard to do. In January twenty twenty, a

47:53

Philadelphia judge ruled that Ellen's parents could move forward with

47:55

a lawsuit against the medical examiner to get

47:57

her official cause of death removed

47:59

from

47:59

the record. Her

48:02

father said at that time, there's a murderer out there, a killer, someone

48:04

who brutally attacked someone who brutally

48:06

attacked somebody

48:07

with multiple stab wounds and let her bleed to death

48:09

and left her for dead.

48:11

So the Greenbergs have retained a notably named

48:14

Joe Petraza. He's been very vocal in this

48:16

case. He said some of the wounds are

48:18

virtually impossible to be

48:20

self inflicted. And certainly, at

48:22

least two of the wounds from behind are so

48:24

devastating as surrender Ellen and capable

48:26

of defending herself and could have been by

48:28

themselves sufficient to kill her. He

48:30

he's argument was that two of the wounds to the back of the neck would

48:32

have rendered her paralyzed. I'm not entirely sure

48:34

if that has been medically proven to be

48:36

true, but that's what he's saying.

48:39

And he's also spoken about the new

48:42

technology that they've used. It says, what we

48:44

have done is we have literally transposed all

48:46

of Ellen's dimensions from height weight

48:48

and everything. and each of the wounds

48:50

that she sustained from their exact

48:52

length, their exact depth, and

48:54

exact angle of the entry of the weapon.

48:56

He also spoke about the legal process at

48:58

the Green books have been enduring. He said according to the trial

49:00

court, a trial is needed because there are

49:02

factual disputes which the

49:04

court believes. if I resolved in the

49:06

Greenberg's favor, has to require the

49:08

death that certificate we changed from suicide

49:10

to something else. The

49:11

attorney general released a statement around

49:13

the tenth anniversary of Ellen's death. They said

49:15

our hearts go out to the Greenberg family on

49:17

the anniversary of Ellen's

49:20

traumatic death. at the urging of the family

49:22

and following a conflict referral from the

49:24

Philadelphia DA's office in two thousand and

49:26

eighteen, our office reviewed the case and

49:28

conducted an extensive investigation, and that did not

49:30

uncover evidence to change the medical examiner's

49:33

finding of suicide. There is no

49:36

statute of limitation on homicide.

49:38

However, and if any new evidence is brought

49:40

forward, we believe it should be reviewed by the

49:42

proper authorities. At this time, no such information has been

49:44

shared with our office. So

49:46

that Greenberg trial was

49:47

scheduled to begin in two thousand and

49:49

twenty one, but I don't think

49:52

it ever happened and probably due to COVID and delays and things like

49:54

that. Joe Petraz are the attorney, said

49:56

in December twenty twenty one that he's

49:59

team provided numerous additional materials to

50:01

the attorney general's office in

50:04

response to the statement to the press that they would

50:06

review new material the material was

50:08

supplied. So that's water material. But basically,

50:10

they gave new new stuff to the attorney

50:12

general for them to look at based

50:13

on their statement that they would

50:16

review it. There was an article on this case from December

50:18

twenty twenty one from date line. It said

50:20

Jopra Drazer told Dateline that the

50:22

materials included in

50:24

the apartment building surveillance

50:26

video, declarations of two building

50:28

employees, one of whom I believe may be

50:30

the security guard, and the videotape depositions

50:34

of doctors. It was maybe I'll just leave that sentence out.

50:36

I'll just start up it again.

50:38

Alright.

50:39

So Jopra Drive

50:40

has a told date line that that

50:42

of the materials they had given to the attorney general included

50:45

building surveillance and the declarations of two building employees. So I

50:47

think one of those was probably

50:49

the security guard. and

50:52

that they also interviewed Dr.

50:54

Emery, who was a pathologist in the medical

50:56

examiner's office in two thousand

50:58

and nineteen. They said that one of

51:00

their wounds that Ellen had suffered

51:02

was administered when she had no

51:04

pulse. So she was already dead,

51:06

essentially, meaning she couldn't stab herself when she

51:08

was already dead. But that

51:10

the wound was not the last stab wound, Ellen

51:12

sustained because a knife was found embedded in

51:14

her chair. So their their argument is that one of

51:16

the other wounds would have been the one that killed but that

51:18

there was an additional one in her chest. Yeah.

51:20

Like, she can't stop herself when

51:22

she's already dead. Yeah. He said, we

51:24

remain dumb founded about how a person could

51:27

self him leaked at least separate stab wounds

51:29

when dead. So Josh, her

51:31

father also spoke to Dateline and he said if

51:33

they're post mortem, that means they were done after

51:35

death and Ellen could not have

51:37

on them. Joe

51:39

Padraza also spoke to Fox as well as

51:41

Dateline and he said something similar. He said

51:43

the neuropathologist testified that the wound in the

51:45

sample that remains own spine

51:47

is post mortem, one that was administered

51:50

after she was dead and have no pulse. If you

51:52

consider that that was not the last wound because the

51:54

knife was found in her chest, You'd have to agree

51:56

that Ellen, while she was dead, somehow

51:58

proceeded to stab herself in the back of the head,

52:00

pull the knife out, and then stab herself in the

52:02

chest, or without a

52:04

pulse. So

52:04

they it's kind of

52:05

interesting, you know, that all this is

52:08

coming out ten years after

52:10

her

52:12

death. Mhmm.

52:12

So in August this year, so

52:14

just a few months ago, Ellen's parents spoke

52:16

to Fox News and gave some more information

52:18

about why they believed her death was

52:21

a homicide. They said she had defensive wounds on her

52:23

wrist that were unacknowledged in the original

52:25

autopsy. Her body had been moved and

52:27

her left hand was gripping the

52:29

knife in her chest. although she was right

52:31

handed. Evidence also suggested that she suffered stab

52:33

wounds from two knives, but they

52:35

only recovered the one that was stuck

52:37

in her chest. They believe that

52:40

evidence had the scene had been staged and that

52:42

her body had moved. They said that there was

52:44

dried blood that would have dripped sideways

52:46

across her face. if she died in the

52:48

position that she was found. So I'm assuming her head was probably tilted to the side

52:50

a little bit when she was found, but the

52:52

-- Yeah. -- blood hadn't dried in that position.

52:56

According to a statement from the former building manager, a

52:58

crime scene cleanup crew came in and

53:00

watched the apartment before forensic investigators had

53:02

a chance to look through it.

53:05

There's also some interesting information in

53:07

a Fox article about doctor

53:10

Mylan Osborn, who was the

53:12

pathologist who handled Ellen's

53:14

case originally. It says that there was a two thousand and twenty

53:16

one deposition as part of a civil suit that the

53:18

Greenberg's filed. Former medical

53:20

examiner, doctor

53:22

Sam, Gilino testified that he'd received no complaints about doctor

53:24

Mylan Osborn. But department records

53:26

show that Osborn was named in at

53:30

least three reprimands. In one, his supervisor a man

53:32

named Gary Collins pointed out

53:34

serious and dangerous flaws in his

53:36

work, including missing signs of a

53:39

manual strangulation on victim who had clearly been strangled

53:41

in other mistakes. His manager had written

53:44

doctor Osborn. These major

53:46

discrepancies show an obvious obvious lack

53:48

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That's better HELP

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dot com slash society. So

55:20

last month, September twenty twenty two, the Chester County

55:23

District Attorney announced that it would

55:25

be reviewing Ellen's case. Before

55:28

that, in July, though, the

55:30

Pennsylvania attorney general's office released a

55:32

statement saying that they couldn't review the

55:34

case because of an unspecified

55:36

appearance of a conflict interest,

55:38

and that's why the Chester County District

55:40

Attorney has now stepped

55:41

in. Joe Projaz

55:42

and the Attorney said it's

55:45

no surprise that the Greenbergs were greatly dissatisfied

55:47

with the attorney general's handling of

55:49

their daughter's matter. They are hopeful

55:51

the investigation by the Chester County DA will

55:53

be thorough and objective. They will cooperate

55:55

and provide whatever assurance they can to the Chester County DA if and

55:57

when requested. They are hopeful of

55:59

justice for

56:02

Ellen. The

56:02

Pennsylvania attorney general's office made a statement to the Greenberg in July

56:05

this year, and it said we wish Arnd's family nothing

56:07

but the best. And our office regrets that

56:09

despite our extensive work,

56:12

our additional efforts have not brought more closure to the questions

56:14

around her death. So that

56:16

is kind of it up to date with

56:19

the legal proceedings, the timeline and the legal proceedings

56:21

in Ellen's case. Obviously, this is

56:24

going to be ongoing, so we'll have to give you some

56:26

updates as

56:28

things happen. But there are some other kind of

56:30

interesting things to discuss

56:31

in relation to her case.

56:33

One of

56:34

the kind of it's not

56:37

well, I guess it's kind of a theory and kind you know,

56:39

I guess we're kind of gonna get into theories

56:41

now. But one of the main theories,

56:43

I think, is that Sam killed

56:46

Ellen. He seems to be the

56:48

obvious person. You know, there's a

56:50

lot of shady things going on around his

56:52

story, you know, maybe a

56:54

few discrepancies the tin blam boots. Would

56:56

you really wear them going to the gym? Why did

56:58

he say the security guard was there when he

57:00

wasn't? And also just like

57:02

who else could it

57:04

be? Yeah. who else could have been? Like, no one else had access to the

57:06

apartment. You know, one of the theories, I guess, would have was

57:08

that it was someone who left fire the balcony,

57:10

but that seems to have been just proven by

57:12

the snow and the no footprints.

57:16

But I guess one of the

57:18

theories about why Sam could have done it

57:20

is that he wanted to break off the relationship. It was

57:22

interesting that Ellen told her

57:24

parents she wanted to move home a

57:26

month before She

57:28

died. There was no mention of moving back with Sam. It seems like

57:30

she wanted to move home alone, but then wedding

57:32

planning websites were still found on her

57:35

computer on the day she died.

57:37

Anyway,

57:37

Sam

57:40

did re marry after Ellen died. It

57:42

was three years after her death though.

57:44

It wasn't you know, a month or two. He

57:46

married a male Melan. He

57:49

married a woman named

57:51

Caroline Fay Shay on January

57:53

eleventh two thousand and fourteen, so

57:55

basically exactly three years after

57:57

Ellen died. This is

57:59

their kind of wedding

58:00

and marriage announcement from The New York Times, and says

58:02

Caroline Facet and Samuel Hankin

58:04

Goldberg were married Saturday evening at

58:07

the Plaza in New York. Missus

58:09

Goldberg thirty two is a buyer of men's

58:11

designer clothing at Scoop New York City, a

58:14

clothing retailer. She graduated from

58:16

Syracuse University.

58:18

She's a daughter of Ruth Schnee and Martin Schnee, both of New

58:20

York. The bride's father is an owner and

58:22

the Vice President of AMS Realty Company.

58:26

a real estate management company in Great Neck, New York. Her mother

58:28

is an independent real estate agent based in

58:30

New York. Mister Goldberg thirty one works

58:32

in Stamford, Connecticut as a featured producer

58:35

for NBC Sports. He graduated from Temple

58:38

University, and then it just goes on

58:40

to talk about Sam's family. So you can kind

58:42

of tell by that that they were part of

58:44

New York society, you know, having a marriage announcement in the New York

58:46

Times, getting married a very long time

58:48

ago. Yeah. So there is

58:50

an article from two thousand and

58:52

seventeen that features

58:54

Caroline who's changed her name to

58:56

Caroline Schnee Goldberg. It's from

58:58

a website called mother on title

59:00

dot com. They do have at least one

59:02

child a daughter called Lola. I believe they

59:04

have at least one other child since this

59:06

article, but this is why

59:08

Caroline was featured. It says Caroline was one of a

59:10

handful of women who didn't inspire me to

59:12

start mother untitled. Her daughter,

59:14

Lola and Bodey, who I'm assuming is the

59:16

author's child. We're in a

59:18

baby movement class together. I had gone back to

59:20

consulting two days a week, but was getting

59:22

comfortable owning the decision to mostly be at home.

59:24

And then I met Caroline who after twelve years in

59:26

fashion had decided to pause to be at home with her

59:28

daughter. Her immediate wants

59:30

sincerity and general corners in talking about

59:32

her career, her choice to

59:34

be home, Getting comfortable with said choice and her family may be instantly more

59:36

confident. And this chapter of my life is going to

59:38

be full of smart,

59:40

interesting woman. So they go in and they

59:42

interview Caroline about her life. You know, I've this

59:44

I've pulled this out because I know a lot of people have mentioned

59:47

this online, but The author asks the question, every

59:49

mother needs help to find balance. What does your village look

59:52

like? So Caroline's

59:54

aunt saying, is in addition

59:56

to a glass of wine or tree, my village is filled

59:58

with great people. My

59:58

husband, Sam, and

59:59

this is a very

1:00:02

interesting sentence. He's hands on and present, a true lifesaver. He's

1:00:04

also a star in the

1:00:06

kitchen. So I feel like that's a really

1:00:08

unfortunate choice of

1:00:10

words considering

1:00:12

his

1:00:12

other fiance died in the kitchen and he wasn't

1:00:14

able to do CPR on her.

1:00:16

It's like I know

1:00:18

it's maybe telling that she

1:00:20

just said, but a lot of people have pulled that out

1:00:22

as well. That is a hardcore statement

1:00:24

from considering

1:00:25

what happened before.

1:00:27

yeah Yeah. So

1:00:28

then she goes on to say that Sam has cooked most of the baby's meals

1:00:30

for the first five months of her life. Like, she

1:00:32

goes on to rave about him. It just seems

1:00:36

really annoying. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Very nice. Whenever that article I

1:00:38

was like, oh, she's a bit

1:00:40

insuffitable really. Yeah. Like,

1:00:42

no one cares. So

1:00:46

in terms of, like, why

1:00:48

Sam would have done it? The main

1:00:50

maybe it

1:00:50

was just a fight. Maybe like

1:00:53

it

1:00:53

seems like a very if it was a murder, it seems

1:00:55

like a very frenzied attack.

1:00:58

Probably not

1:00:59

very well planned. It

1:01:01

just seems like there was a lot of

1:01:03

hype behind whatever happened. I'm

1:01:06

like so toward it in this

1:01:08

case because I'm just like if it is a

1:01:10

murder, which I feel like it's not a

1:01:12

suicide, but he's, like,

1:01:14

the only choice it seems like

1:01:16

but I'm also not totally sold on him doing it either because

1:01:18

for one, he's really

1:01:20

dumb. And I feel like

1:01:24

his I feel like his nine eleven call, like, the way

1:01:26

that he was acting, I feel

1:01:28

like it was, like, genuine stupidity where

1:01:30

as if he had planned it, he

1:01:32

would have thought of better things to say.

1:01:34

Like, instead of being like, oh, she fell and I'm like, oh,

1:01:37

she fell in the knife. Like, if he was planning ahead,

1:01:39

he would have thought of a better thing to

1:01:41

say or something. Yeah. And

1:01:43

also with the text, like, he was texting

1:01:45

her very aggressively. And I was

1:01:48

thinking if he did do it Yeah.

1:01:50

Yeah. Like, planning ahead, he

1:01:52

knows people are gonna read these texts. Like,

1:01:54

when he try to see more, like, a

1:01:56

nicer person, you'd be like, hey,

1:01:58

what's happened? Are you alright? like, what we said you'd

1:01:59

probably be you'd be generally being nice

1:02:02

rather than, like,

1:02:03

you better have an excuse.

1:02:05

Yeah. because that just doesn't look good.

1:02:07

So I don't know. like, I

1:02:08

feel like there may have been cracks in their marriage, especially based on her telling

1:02:10

her mom she wanted to move home, which she probably wouldn't

1:02:12

do if you were planning on getting married to

1:02:15

the person who didn't wanna break. but

1:02:17

then her mother and her family have always spoke

1:02:20

very glowingly about Samuel. They said there was no

1:02:22

issues as

1:02:24

far as they knew he was never abusive. Like,

1:02:26

obviously, things can go on behind

1:02:29

closed doors, but

1:02:30

I don't

1:02:32

know. So I

1:02:33

did find a little bit of a

1:02:35

criminal background on Sam. It's

1:02:38

from a little while ago. There's a website

1:02:40

called Crime Scoop, and they this is

1:02:42

from them. It says he has a criminal recording

1:02:44

in Arizona. for primarily traffic violations with at least one charge of

1:02:46

providing liquor to minors. He was

1:02:48

also a victim by a

1:02:50

landlord who attempted to bring as many

1:02:52

as nine

1:02:54

civil judgments against him. So no real violent

1:02:56

criminal history, just some

1:02:59

basic kind of things

1:03:01

in his

1:03:01

past.

1:03:03

Yeah. So

1:03:04

one other question that comes up a lot is how and

1:03:07

the is basically about

1:03:08

the lock and the door. How

1:03:11

could the lock have been locked from the

1:03:14

inside if Ellen had killed it? Like, if if

1:03:16

it wasn't suicide, who else would have locked it

1:03:18

from the inside? did the

1:03:20

apartment somehow have the intruder who

1:03:22

escaped via the balcony? We've spoken

1:03:24

about how there was the fresh snow,

1:03:26

so that basically, is

1:03:28

not what happened. Like, the Japanese

1:03:30

six floors up. Like -- Yeah. --

1:03:32

it'd be pretty much It'd be climbing down.

1:03:34

And they'd have to jump from balcony to

1:03:36

balcony. Like, surely, there would have been some way to see

1:03:38

if that was

1:03:39

happening. Yeah.

1:03:41

There's So

1:03:44

everyone's like, I feel like for me, this was one of the bigger

1:03:48

points to it being suicide. Like, surely,

1:03:50

she must have done it if she was the only

1:03:52

one inside the apartment who latched the

1:03:54

door. But there are lots of videos that

1:03:56

I've watched too about how you can

1:03:58

actually latch these locks from

1:04:00

the outside. and how you can

1:04:02

unlock them from the from the outside

1:04:04

as well, just we think like a credit card type

1:04:06

thing. Like, literally, take seconds. I was actually

1:04:08

shocked with how quickly you can

1:04:10

do it. Yeah. There's photos of the lock online. It does

1:04:12

look damaged. It doesn't look

1:04:14

destroyed. So

1:04:16

you can see that kind of some of the

1:04:20

of the door has come off like it's pulled away with the latch.

1:04:22

But both sides of the latch

1:04:24

are essentially still pretty attached to

1:04:26

the door. I know they said they were screws

1:04:28

on the ground, I believe, but the latch both

1:04:30

sides is still on the door. Yeah. So it

1:04:33

looks like he kicked

1:04:35

in the

1:04:35

door, which, like, loosen it enough to

1:04:36

be able to open it, I guess. Yeah. But,

1:04:39

yeah, it is easy enough to lock

1:04:41

one of those locks from the

1:04:43

outside, whether it was Sam Letida

1:04:46

or some other murderer.

1:04:48

Who knows?

1:04:48

There was

1:04:49

Fox News did an article on the Lock.

1:04:52

They spoke to Pat Diaz who

1:04:54

served for twenty six years as a Miami Dade

1:04:56

homicide detective, and he

1:04:58

said there is no way they broke into that

1:05:00

apartment. The left side lock would come off, I

1:05:02

guarantee it. He also said there would

1:05:04

likely be visible damaged in the bottom

1:05:06

handle. He said this was not suicide.

1:05:08

This is usually someone with anger when you've

1:05:10

got that many stab wounds, someone

1:05:12

was angry. So I do

1:05:14

agree with the last part especially

1:05:16

of it being a very

1:05:18

angry deaf Yeah.

1:05:20

So I guess the other

1:05:22

theory is suicide. It's

1:05:24

been so that Ellen's computer was still

1:05:26

open on the wedding pages. She'd been cutting

1:05:28

up fruit in the kitchen before she died. I

1:05:30

don't really think either of those things mean

1:05:33

that she wouldn't have taken her

1:05:35

own life. Like, there

1:05:36

was obviously things going on with her.

1:05:38

She seem to not be coping very well, be struggling with anxiety

1:05:40

for her to visit the psychiatrist

1:05:42

three times in a week, essentially

1:05:45

seems a lot. And then

1:05:47

even also, I think for her mother to contact

1:05:49

the psychiatrist and say, I'm really worried about

1:05:52

her, that indicates that there was a lot

1:05:54

going on. Yeah. I

1:05:56

was wondering because I know it was only the ambient and

1:05:58

the colonopin in her system. I

1:06:00

wonder if she had just started taking colonopin because

1:06:02

sometimes people do

1:06:04

have, like, adverse reactions to drugs when you first start

1:06:06

them. Like, I just looked it up and it

1:06:08

says, controlled substance can cause

1:06:10

paranoid or suicidal ideation

1:06:12

and impaired

1:06:14

memory, judge maintain coordination combined with other substances,

1:06:16

particularly alcoholic and slow breathing and

1:06:18

possibly lead to death. And plus

1:06:20

also her

1:06:22

computer searches are interesting. Like, I know that if someone looked at

1:06:24

my searches, they'd be like, well, that's

1:06:26

what's going on with you. Yeah. But

1:06:29

you know, it is interesting and may have pointed it to

1:06:32

her kind of mind set at the

1:06:34

time. Like, I just a side note,

1:06:36

I was thinking this today

1:06:38

because we're doing our next episode on

1:06:40

Debbie Collier. And I

1:06:42

literally Googled in reference to that case,

1:06:44

is it hard to burn a body?

1:06:46

because I just wanna know for the podcast when we talk about it. But I'm

1:06:48

my name and if someone saw my search history, that'd

1:06:50

be weird. Even the article that they

1:06:53

mentioned was in her search history

1:06:55

about the person tweeting in the bathroom, Diane. I'm sure

1:06:57

I read that article all the time too.

1:07:00

So, you know, it's just a

1:07:02

crazy article. But there are some specific

1:07:04

searches like suffocation and different things like

1:07:06

that. So,

1:07:07

you know, it could point

1:07:09

to it. We did

1:07:10

ask on our Instagram page

1:07:12

if people believe this was murder or suicide. And ninety nine percent of people said

1:07:15

they believed it was murder. And I think

1:07:17

many of the one percent miss me

1:07:19

to say accidentally hit the one percent.

1:07:22

So I feel like the majority of people feel this

1:07:24

was a

1:07:26

murder. I hi

1:07:28

I have to say and don't come out with this. My initial

1:07:30

thinking was that this was a

1:07:32

suicide because I've seen so many

1:07:35

strange suicides before But

1:07:37

the more I have looked into this case, there

1:07:40

are

1:07:40

some discrepancies from Samuel's story,

1:07:42

which lead me to believe he

1:07:45

was possibly involved So now I am

1:07:48

probably

1:07:48

less likely to

1:07:49

believe it was a suicide. I

1:07:52

don't

1:07:53

even know what I think. I'm just like so

1:07:55

baffled by it that I don't even have an opinion.

1:07:57

Like,

1:07:57

oh, I just really wanna know what happened. If

1:07:59

it was like she

1:08:02

stabbed herself, maybe two or three times, then I'd be like, with everything else, it'd

1:08:04

be, like, it's probably a suicide. But this

1:08:06

amount of stab wounds in

1:08:08

the location, I'm

1:08:10

just, like, how does someone do that to themselves unless she had,

1:08:12

like, a real sort of, like, mental rake

1:08:14

or, like, something happened, like, a hallucination or

1:08:19

but we'll get into that in a second too. But

1:08:21

this is what I was talking about

1:08:23

with the the spinal injury. I

1:08:25

saw a comment on Reddit that

1:08:28

kind of talks a little

1:08:30

bit about whether she could have been paralyzed or not from that one wound.

1:08:36

It says, examiners looking at her

1:08:38

possible spinal cord injury have come to different conclusions. Both of the examiners are

1:08:43

highly qualified experts The first said that the spinal

1:08:45

cord sheath was damaged but not cut through. They thought that the damage could

1:08:47

have caused her to become numb, meaning

1:08:50

she might not have felt the other

1:08:52

wounds. but

1:08:54

not make it impossible for her

1:08:56

to continue. The second pathologist to examine this this issue looked

1:08:58

at the preserved piece of spinal cord and found that

1:09:03

her cranial cavity had been penetrated and that her spinal

1:09:05

cord had been severed. After the final

1:09:07

stab wound,

1:09:08

the knife was left

1:09:10

in her chest. So if this second

1:09:12

examination is correct, someone else would have had

1:09:14

to do that. So basically, the debate is, did that stab

1:09:17

render her

1:09:18

paralyzed and kill her?

1:09:22

or did it make her

1:09:24

numb where she couldn't feel the rest of the

1:09:26

stabs and was able to just kind of

1:09:28

continue stabbing? Yep. Very mysterious. It reminds me kind

1:09:31

of of your your Fave Ax murder family case where the guy went

1:09:33

about his daily routine even though the face

1:09:35

woke up. His head was busted

1:09:39

in. Yeah. It's like sometimes you just continue to do

1:09:41

things even though you have severe

1:09:43

damage. Yeah. Yeah. Another

1:09:46

theory that I found people talking about

1:09:48

on Reddit was an ambient theory. She

1:09:51

did have Zolpi diem in

1:09:53

her system, which is ambient. And I

1:09:55

think we've all heard stories of people doing

1:09:57

crazy shit on ambient. Like one

1:09:59

comment

1:09:59

said, Aileen toward the

1:10:02

ambient theory, having done ambient

1:10:04

recreation knowing firsthand when intense trip it can

1:10:06

be. It's supposed to keep your body still as part of its

1:10:08

effect, but not

1:10:11

everybody experiences that. just as not

1:10:14

everybody experiences the hallucinogenic effects. Hence, all the stories about sleepwalking, sleep eating,

1:10:16

she may not have even intended

1:10:18

to hurt herself, she may have been

1:10:22

stabbing at something else or something that she

1:10:24

believes is on her back or something like

1:10:26

that. You can hallucinate literally anything.

1:10:30

But some people

1:10:31

have said,

1:10:31

well, there's only trace amounts of ambient in

1:10:34

her system, like, would that happen on

1:10:35

trace amounts? I don't

1:10:37

know. And also,

1:10:38

this would she take Ambien at six o'clock at nine or what do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. That's

1:10:40

what someone else

1:10:43

said. This one said, Also,

1:10:46

she was in the middle of making a salad at

1:10:48

the appropriate time I made ad that does not speak amken Psychosis to

1:10:50

me. Do you know what? But it could have been maybe she

1:10:53

cut up the fruit early that day and she decided

1:10:55

that she was tired and she wanted to to bed early. there's, you know, there's it could be reasoning for that,

1:10:58

but it does seem like an unusual

1:11:00

time to

1:11:03

be taking Ambien? Yeah. Just maybe

1:11:05

if you just start taking the

1:11:07

Calana pin and Ambien and

1:11:09

make together if she had like a bad

1:11:11

reaction. I don't know. There's I just, like, I really have no idea this case. Yeah. It

1:11:14

just seems like it's like

1:11:18

I say, a lot of it's just a perfect storm of bad circumstances. Like they may have medical

1:11:24

examiner who didn't do the

1:11:26

third job. There like, there's just a lot of different things going on that kind of have messed with

1:11:28

this case and

1:11:31

messed with what the determination maybe

1:11:33

she should have been. Yeah. And, like, her fiance seemed kind of like a douche bag but --

1:11:35

Yeah. -- not necessarily a murderer.

1:11:38

I don't know. Yeah. So,

1:11:42

yeah, that's it for Ellen's case, essentially, now. Yeah. I mean,

1:11:44

the two there

1:11:47

we'll link that two

1:11:50

Reddit threads on the blog. I found some

1:11:52

good case like, some good discussion on it

1:11:54

on Reddit. So I'm not gonna go through it all

1:11:56

on here, but if you wanna read more about what other

1:11:58

people are thinking, there's a lot of good comments on

1:12:00

these two threads, so we'll link them. And

1:12:02

when I asked people for what their theories were, like the actual

1:12:05

specific theories, it

1:12:08

I'm I'm

1:12:08

pretty sure every single one said it was Sam's. I mean, we said

1:12:10

it's a husband, which I'm assuming means Sam, you know, every like,

1:12:15

there is an one that I someone said, oh, it must

1:12:17

have been Joe Smith who she worked with

1:12:19

because, you

1:12:19

know,

1:12:20

they they

1:12:22

had a volatile relationship. the only suspect that anyone could name was

1:12:24

Sam. So let's also, like, he's just the

1:12:26

easiest one to pin it on.

1:12:29

But, like, when you really look at it,

1:12:31

like, I don't know. There's nothing, like, screaming. Like, it was definitely him

1:12:33

to me. But also, a whole another thing

1:12:35

is that isn't

1:12:38

talked about last, like, she seemed to be having a lot of stress at work. Like, was

1:12:40

she having problems with someone at work? Like, what was going

1:12:42

on at work that was causing her so much stress?

1:12:46

And even for that to only be her DNA on the knife. The

1:12:48

other person who had to wear in clothes or

1:12:50

something. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.

1:12:53

You think though for such, she, I don't know,

1:12:55

I guess, for such a frenzied attack, especially knife was left in her

1:12:57

body, it wasn't like the knife was pulled

1:12:59

out and washed for

1:13:02

there to be someone else I don't know. Yeah. I guess it could have been gloves, but it just seems

1:13:04

unusual that there was no other DNA. And so

1:13:06

I was like, was this person sweating? There's

1:13:09

no sweat? There's no

1:13:11

other DNA anywhere? Why did she have no

1:13:13

defensive wounds? Like, I guess, you know But then her parents said there was defensive wounds. Right? On her

1:13:15

wrist yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I

1:13:18

guess no defensive wounds in the autopsy

1:13:20

reported which

1:13:22

I guess comes down to also maybe dodgy

1:13:25

reporting? Yes. So all

1:13:27

these questions in

1:13:29

office, like, difference in reporting just

1:13:32

shows that it was kind of like botched from the

1:13:34

start. I feel like you could have one theory if

1:13:36

you went off the medical examiner reporting and

1:13:38

then a second theory if went off what the parents are saying happened.

1:13:40

Yeah. Yeah.

1:13:42

So that's it.

1:13:44

Yep.

1:13:44

That's it. Well, it'll all

1:13:47

this will obviously be ongoing yeah,

1:13:49

for a long

1:13:50

I'm assuming it's probably gonna drag out for a long time. It seems to have dragged already for

1:13:53

over a

1:13:56

decade. So hopefully things stop

1:13:58

moving quickly. Yeah. I'll be interested to know what

1:13:59

everyone thinks on this one. Like I

1:14:01

said, I really have

1:14:03

no idea so. Let me

1:14:05

know your theories. Maybe I'll see

1:14:08

if I agree with any of

1:14:10

them. But I hope that Ellen

1:14:12

does get justice in her family because I it

1:14:14

must be awful for her family because I know if if this was me, my family would be like, there's no

1:14:16

way that she stopped

1:14:19

herself twenty times. Like, hello.

1:14:21

Yeah. And they seemed like a

1:14:23

very close family, especially with Ellen being the only child. They seemed like very close

1:14:25

knit

1:14:26

caring, loving family. Yeah.

1:14:29

yeah Alright.

1:14:30

So everything that we talked

1:14:32

about will be on the blog. Like we said,

1:14:35

there's a really good website, Gavin

1:14:37

Fish, We'll link that in the blog with

1:14:39

the Reddit threads, the pictures, There'll lots info there crime society

1:14:43

blog dot com. follow us on

1:14:45

Instagram at True Crime Society, and you can follow our personal accounts at TCS

1:14:48

Olivia. And

1:14:51

mine is stuff some underscore, leave us a

1:14:54

review if you haven't already a nice one to make us feel

1:14:57

happy and share

1:15:00

the podcast all your friends, all your

1:15:02

family, everyone, share with everyone you know, and check our sponsors. And

1:15:06

that's it. I was rushing that because I'm sick. So

1:15:12

Alright. So thank

1:15:15

you guys for listening. be nice

1:15:18

to each other.

1:15:21

Peace out.

1:15:40

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