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1:12

Ahoy friends, thank you for tuning in to Truth In

1:14

Justice. You are listening to the

1:17

final Friday follow up for season 14. This

1:19

week we heard from Real Crime Profiles Jim Cominty.

1:22

Bob and Jim had a great conversation about

1:24

Netflix's series Baby Reindeer and the sensation that

1:26

it's become. I'm joined today by Bob and

1:29

Janet and we have a lot to discuss. Bob,

1:31

before we kick off this final season 14

1:33

follow up, how do you want to

1:35

go about this? I want to get it over with so we can

1:37

start season 15. I'm so ready to

1:40

start season 15. What's

1:42

up everybody? Thanks for joining us. This is,

1:44

I'm really, Zach came in. I'm still clickety

1:46

clacking away on the keyboard, getting season 15

1:48

written. Sunday is the day.

1:50

I am, I've never been,

1:53

I don't think ever this excited to start

1:55

into a new case. There's just, it's one

1:57

of those, actually Janet and I had a

1:59

meeting last night. And we were talking

2:01

about, just talking about what we're doing got

2:03

me all fired up again. Like this is one of

2:05

those cases, like we have the wrongful conviction that I

2:08

think that we can do something

2:10

about. I think we can get this conviction overturned. And

2:12

there was also a much greater, bigger story here. I

2:14

think that we can have a huge impact on it.

2:17

I'm really excited to be doing this with

2:19

the young folks that are helping me. We

2:21

just had Caden, one of my

2:23

students, finished all the music. We just wrapped that

2:25

up this week. So we have the full soundtrack

2:27

done. I got those tracks and

2:29

Eric and I yesterday put together the

2:32

first, we spent four and a half

2:34

hours putting together the first two minutes of season 15.

2:36

I actually shared a little sneak peek of that with

2:39

Zach, Janet, and, and, and Robby. I

2:41

had to send it to Robby too. So

2:43

we're ready to go. So let's get this chat

2:46

about Jim and baby reindeer. I

2:48

don't mean to minimize any of this, but this is

2:50

not the thing that I'm thinking about right now. Yeah.

2:54

You were deep in this. I'm excited. Me

2:56

being in here in the office and getting to see you like

2:59

the excitement's back, like the excited Bob is back

3:01

and it's, it's very fun to see from my

3:03

end. I get to see it in the office.

3:05

You guys just need to hear it, but he's

3:08

ready to go. This is going to be a great season. I

3:10

keep saying I'm excited, but I'm

3:12

excited. That's the word I was looking for.

3:14

But also I really like, like this first

3:16

episode too has more influence from people

3:19

under 20 than anything we've ever done.

3:21

Because not only do we have the music by Caden and

3:23

Erica writing and producing with me and she's

3:25

helping investigate and research and all the other stuff

3:27

she's doing. Also I had like when we were

3:29

like workshopping the intro, I had my, my 19

3:31

year old son and his girlfriend out here helping

3:33

us with sound design and stuff like that. Like

3:35

it's just been, it's really cool to

3:38

me that we're, we're all coming

3:40

together to make this awesome thing. I love

3:42

the fact that in the office there are

3:44

five giant whiteboards and they are covered with

3:46

shit. Yeah. So yeah, it's

3:48

going to be good. Yeah. I

3:51

just put some stuff on Facebook marketplace that's in the

3:53

way so I can add more wiped boards. Nice.

3:57

We like this. It's like tripping over an incubator for me.

3:59

when I had the quail, I'm like, why is this in

4:01

here? I could have a whole other bulletin board over here.

4:05

So if you're in the market for an incubator, hit

4:07

me up. You ever seen those scenes in the movies

4:10

where the guys have the pictures pin with all the

4:12

yarn going around? That's what the office looks like. Red

4:14

string, yeah. Yeah, and it is

4:16

real shit, like the big, we have our main, what

4:18

we call the murder board, the big eight foot board

4:20

that we keep stuff on. As we're going through stuff

4:22

that I found or Eric has found, we just keep,

4:25

like just tacking stuff to that that is like

4:27

so hugely significant to the case, and we haven't

4:29

even got started yet. So

4:31

I sound like a small child, ready to go. Janet, how are

4:33

you? I'm fine, except every single

4:35

day that

4:37

we've talked about this, I get more and

4:40

more jealous that I am not there like

4:43

working on this. So it

4:45

was so tantalizing to get to work so

4:47

much more on Pinion Pines, and

4:49

so I'm fighting the strong,

4:51

or she abandoned my entire life and go

4:53

out there and sleep in Becky's library. I

4:56

think you should, listen, for us to

4:58

work together in Pinion Pines, I flew out to where

5:00

you live. I know. I

5:03

feel like you could fly out to where we live. I know. Also,

5:07

I think the second voice you

5:09

hear on the podcast on the main episode this

5:11

week is Zach's. It's very

5:13

quiet, but it's there. Yeah, it's there. Okay,

5:15

Easter egg, got it. Yeah,

5:17

little Easter egg. Zach says

5:19

good luck. Perfect. Well, people

5:22

are really excited about it. I mean, just

5:24

on the Truth and Justice Facebook page in

5:26

general, anything that you, any little sliver of

5:28

information that you've dropped in there, people have

5:31

very strong reactions to, they're excited. As usual,

5:33

people are trying to kind of suss out

5:36

maybe what it is beforehand. I know we

5:39

had some folks who did that very early

5:41

on, and

5:43

that excitement is only building, so I

5:45

cannot wait for Sunday. Even just the

5:47

little snippet that you sent Zach

5:49

and me, I got chills, it was just like, oh, here

5:52

we go, here we go. And I did drop it if

5:54

you haven't looked any of my social media did drop the

5:56

artwork that was a combined

5:59

effort. Yeah, you couldn't wait on that, could you?

6:01

Even I got to give some help. You're so excited. You're

6:03

so excited. Yeah, well, people started researching it

6:05

and everything. And I did also send that

6:08

to the person that's

6:10

in prison through JPay. And I

6:12

did. I apparently took it because we exchanged

6:14

a few other emails. And

6:16

then also I got one yesterday. I was like, wow,

6:19

I just got this is amazing. Brilliant. Like, they

6:21

can't wait. They're super excited about it. Awesome. And

6:23

then all these weird little connections that keep coming

6:25

in. So my

6:28

wife got a Facebook message

6:30

from one of our former students

6:33

who's now in his 30s. And

6:35

I sent this message. It was a screenshot

6:37

from the person that's in prison who

6:40

had sent him a JPay message telling

6:43

him, he was he's like, hey, this guy

6:45

named Bob Ruff is doing this podcast about

6:47

me. It's called Truth and Justice. And it

6:49

starts, you should check it out and tell

6:52

all your friends. And he's

6:54

like, is this your Bob? Yeah.

6:56

So he knows and he lives,

6:59

LaVon, my old student, lives

7:02

in Indianapolis. But it

7:04

has kept in touch with the person in prison

7:06

who wrote them. So they're like all these connections.

7:08

Oh my goodness. Very,

7:11

very cool. Can't wait. And

7:13

this is the first time I think that I've done maybe

7:16

since Jamie Snow's case where once

7:18

the first episode drops, I'm actually going to do

7:20

a press blitz because to get done the things

7:22

that I want to get done, we need local.

7:26

Attention to this. So

7:28

I'm going to put out press release to all of

7:30

our local news stations and radio stations, things like that.

7:32

And I may even, I never do this to promote

7:34

any of the stuff we're doing, but I may even

7:36

reach out to some of our podcast friends

7:38

and see if they'd be willing to drop some kind

7:41

of promo to it on their feeds because I just,

7:43

usually I'm just like, I'm not. People listen, they listen.

7:45

I want the people here that are here to really

7:47

engage. I've never been, as I always say,

7:50

I'm a terrible business man. I'm never trying to really do

7:52

any marketing. But in this case, it's

7:54

like we genuinely need to build the biggest

7:56

army of people we've ever built to make

7:58

some real. we can make real changes for

8:01

a lot of people. I agree. And I

8:03

think the thing that I'm fortunate enough to know, and I, Janet, I

8:05

think you know this at this point, but this

8:07

case coming forward isn't just a wrongful conviction case.

8:09

I mean, it's so much bigger than that. And

8:11

there's so much that can be affected, like you

8:14

said, and I think this is gonna be huge.

8:16

Yeah, it's kind of two stories in one. So

8:18

it's like, there's obviously the wrongful conviction we're gonna

8:20

be investigating, but day one on

8:22

the streets talking to the people in Benton

8:25

Harbor, realize that there's a much greater issue

8:27

here. I was gonna say, it seems

8:29

like they need our help, there's no seems like, they're

8:31

literally exact words where somebody needs to help us. And

8:34

so that's gonna be us. That's what we do. I

8:36

love it. But we're not here

8:38

to talk about all that. Talk about it.

8:42

For Jim Plimoni, he can handle it. He's a

8:44

tough cookie. He can handle that we're like, okay,

8:47

let's talk about the episode with Jim, even though

8:49

we all are excited about the season. Right, right.

8:51

No, I was super excited to talk to Jim,

8:53

always excited to talk to Jim. What'd you guys

8:55

think of the episode? Oh, it's great.

8:57

I loved his breakdown, actually, because of his

8:59

breakdown, Michelle and I went and binged Baby

9:02

Reindeer for the last two days, which was an easy binge,

9:04

to be honest. Well, it's not easy to watch, but it

9:06

was, it's a time-wise, it's a quick one. Becky and I

9:08

went through it in like two days, too. Yeah, it's a

9:10

quick one. It's not easy to watch, but it's a quick

9:12

one. Yeah, it's an uncomfortable watch. Yes, it really is. But

9:15

I almost wanna watch it again after talking to

9:18

him because he kinda gave me more of an

9:20

understanding of how important it was, because I was

9:22

kinda surprised by his take on it. I didn't,

9:24

because I heard a lot of people that

9:27

watch it, some people watch it and loved it, thought

9:29

it was groundbreaking. Other people were like, ah, I don't

9:31

like this, it's exploitive, and it's, but

9:34

when Jim really laid out the

9:37

idea that that's real life, from a person

9:39

who has investigated violent crimes, thousands of them

9:41

over the years, to see like,

9:43

no, that's, it's never like it is in movies.

9:47

It's like this. Those

9:50

issues are still much more complicated. Yes.

9:53

So yeah, I kinda wanna watch it again. I

9:55

think even before Jim came in, when I heard

9:57

that the main actor plays

9:59

him. I thought that was really interesting

10:01

because I know I kind of knew the basis of it

10:03

and I knew how vulnerable he had to Be so I

10:06

think that was huge for me. It wasn't just an actor Portraying

10:09

this person it was him stepping in

10:11

and portraying himself maybe in a different

10:13

light and as Jim said and we

10:15

all kind Of know that things

10:18

get rewritten a little bit It's not completely factual

10:20

because they have to do certain things for TV,

10:22

but for him to step in and play himself

10:25

a Himself I thought was

10:27

was amazing. You know, it made it made me want

10:29

to watch it that much more What do you think

10:32

Janet? Oh, I thought it was

10:34

fascinating You know when that that series dropped and

10:36

I started hearing about it to be honest with

10:38

you One of my first thoughts was oh my

10:40

god They're totally gonna talk about this unreal crime

10:42

profile Just because I'm very familiar

10:44

with what they've covered on that podcast

10:47

and the fact that they really do

10:49

Tend to be as soon as something

10:51

in the zeitgeist kind of addresses

10:53

something or has in some way some Connection

10:55

to material that they really are passionate about

10:58

talking about that they jump on it So

11:00

the from the moment I heard about it.

11:02

I was like, oh, they're gonna definitely talk

11:04

about this There was no question in my

11:06

mind and I haven't listened to

11:09

their coverage on it because I am one

11:11

of those people Who has

11:13

a very hard time watching it and so I've

11:16

watched I think I might be on the last

11:18

episode But it has been for

11:20

those of you who feel like Uncomfortable

11:23

about watching I mean I get it I

11:25

don't want anyone to feel like shamed that

11:27

they are uncomfortable or just haven't been

11:29

able to finish it because Me

11:31

not watching it has enough it has nothing to do

11:33

with whether I think it has value or whether or

11:35

not I care about the characters

11:37

or anything like that It's very uncomfortable

11:40

because it is so honest and because

11:42

it's very hard to see People

11:44

depicted in this way where you know They're

11:46

making choices in the moment that have a

11:48

lot to do with where they came from

11:51

and who they are and why they are

11:53

the way they are and you're not always

11:55

going to be thrilled about those choices and

11:57

So for me, there is a lot

11:59

of it's very cringe And I think

12:01

cringy kind of has a bad connotation,

12:03

but I think it should be cringy.

12:06

And I am gonna finish it. But again, shout

12:09

out to those of you who said, like, I've tried and I've

12:11

really struggled to get through it. I will say this, for

12:13

the most part, and I could be

12:15

totally wrong, I feel like our audience

12:18

is, they're very sensitive and they're already

12:20

thinking about other people and they're already

12:22

very interested in psychological reasons. People do

12:24

things. I think if you

12:27

know yourself, you may already kind of have

12:29

a strong understanding about some of this material

12:31

that's covered in this and you're not a

12:33

bad person if it's really painful for you

12:35

to watch and you just can't finish it.

12:37

I'm okay with that. I get it. Yeah,

12:40

I'm sure it's triggering for a

12:43

lot of people. Yeah. And that's

12:45

perfectly fine. And

12:48

I don't have that experience, so I don't understand, you know,

12:51

I can't pretend to understand that experience, but that's

12:53

perfectly fine that people, if that's a triggering thing

12:56

for them, they don't want to watch it. But for

12:58

the people that do, I think it's usually, I remember

13:00

back, I was at some kind of true crime conference,

13:02

I was on a panel with Josh Hallmark, and

13:04

we were talking about the

13:07

use of certain slurs when

13:12

we're podcasting, and the discussion was around, like,

13:15

if you interview someone and

13:18

they say the N-word or

13:20

they say the F-word, and

13:22

whether that should be edited out, and there was a lot of

13:24

opinions about how it should be, and Josh is a gay man,

13:26

and he was just, it

13:30

was so articulate the way that he broke it down,

13:32

and it made so much sense to me, because

13:35

like someone in the audience said,

13:37

well, when I hear that word, it makes me

13:40

uncomfortable, and Josh immediately snapped back and said, good,

13:43

you should be uncomfortable. Like, why

13:45

would you edit out, and it

13:47

was just his opinion, right, of it, but he's like, why

13:49

would you edit out, if

13:52

someone's being interviewed, and they are laying

13:54

out who they really are, and

13:56

they're saying these words that make you uncomfortable.

14:00

you should be uncomfortable, because it helps you

14:02

understand the situation better. So I kind of

14:04

feel like, because I was like Zach, like

14:06

it's an uncomfortable watch, but then really

14:09

kind of under, listening to Jim break it down, it was

14:11

like, it is

14:13

an uncomfortable watch, but I think

14:15

like feeling that discomfort maybe

14:17

helps a little bit with understanding. What's

14:20

going on. From somebody

14:22

like, you know, I can only speak for myself,

14:24

who just hasn't had those kind of life experiences.

14:26

So I don't really know, you know,

14:29

what people are going through and you still don't. But

14:31

I don't think personally that feeling that discomfort

14:34

is a bad thing. If it's something you

14:36

can get through without like, really being damaging

14:38

to you because of your own experiences. Yeah.

14:41

Yeah. I really enjoyed the conversation. And

14:44

I see some live comments

14:46

right now happening in our

14:48

YouTube and Fiona says, I loved hearing

14:50

Jim's mini profile of the interview with

14:53

Piers Morgan that he describes in

14:56

your conversation. And I thought that was really interesting

14:58

too, because that's not something that I had followed

15:00

up with, even though I was reading about it

15:02

and that it happened and that that person had

15:04

come forward. And I really enjoyed

15:06

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16:47

right, if we can get

16:49

into, I

16:54

know we actually have a few questions this week, so

16:56

why don't we go and buzz through those? Sure.

16:59

Well, first of all, just going back in time

17:01

a little bit, if you don't mind just recapping,

17:03

I think a lot of us know, but going

17:06

back to the source, Margaret Ann says, how did

17:09

you and Jim find each other all those years

17:11

ago? You referenced the fact that, you

17:13

were the first real crime profile guest, and

17:15

that you had met Jim a long time

17:17

ago, but just as a quick

17:20

refresher for those people who maybe don't recall

17:22

exactly how you guys kind of, how

17:24

you went into his life and him you. Yeah,

17:27

it was interesting because, so Jim

17:29

had listened to Serial, and Undisclosed

17:32

was airing, and he started listening

17:34

to it. He had actually reached

17:36

out to Rabia, I think, and

17:39

offered to profile the case.

17:42

At that point, I think a lot of people didn't really

17:44

even understand exactly what profiling was, and

17:46

Rabia had referred him to me,

17:49

because she was like, you know, we're doing more legal

17:51

stuff, Bob does more investigative work, maybe you should talk

17:53

to Bob. So I still remember the first time I

17:55

talked to Jim on the phone, like we got on

17:57

the phone, and I was like, she's like, Jim Clemente.

18:00

wants to talk to you and she said it as though

18:02

it was someone I should know who it is. As

18:04

you guys know, I didn't know who Idris Elbow was

18:06

when I shook his hand. I don't

18:08

know who Jim Clementi was. I

18:10

googled him. The first thing that came up was his

18:13

book, which is not about profiling really. It's so

18:15

much. It's about his life experience and him

18:17

being abused and things like that when he was younger and

18:20

then later catching the person that did it.

18:23

I remember getting him on the phone and we start talking and I'm

18:25

trying to talk to him about

18:27

his book because I think that's why he's...

18:30

I'm struggling to find out why he's a

18:32

part of this at all. Bob.

18:36

Yeah. Lasting Bob rough. Yep. But

18:38

we ended up on the phone for hours. Like

18:40

talking, just, you know, I've kind of figured out

18:42

obviously what he does and we started

18:45

making arrangements to talk about then I had

18:47

him come on and he did the profile.

18:50

We just, we got to be, I know it's just one of

18:52

the certain people you just click with and you just become fast

18:54

friends. And that was me and Jim and I was

18:56

really interested in the work that he did. So

18:59

I kind of like was reaching out to him

19:01

for to help me better understand how to do

19:03

behavioral analysis. And he was always, always

19:06

willing to help with that. I mean, he would, he would,

19:08

he's not teaching classes, but he was certainly a mentor and

19:10

he would even like, like send me a little sample cases

19:12

for, you know, it was like, well, what do you think

19:14

about this? You know, so, so we got to be working

19:16

like that together. And then when

19:19

I went out to LA the first time, it

19:21

was a coincidence that I was there when

19:23

they started the podcast. The

19:25

first time John Cryer, who I also didn't know who

19:27

he was. Amazing.

19:31

The first time John had flown me

19:33

out to LA to talk

19:35

to talk about putting together a pitch for the

19:37

documentary. I was going to LA, I'd

19:39

never been to LA. And so I reached out to

19:41

Jim because that's where he lives. And I was like,

19:43

Hey, I'm going to be in LA. Maybe we should

19:45

hook up. And literally my flight landed. And

19:48

I text him that I just landed. And he's like, good.

19:50

You know, we're meeting right now. Why don't you come over

19:52

to the house? And so he gave me his address. So

19:54

my first stop in LA was to go to Jim's house.

19:57

And I went in the basement and he was

19:59

sitting in the. there with Laura and Lisa, that

20:01

I didn't know who either one of them were,

20:04

had an amazing interaction with Lisa because I walked

20:06

in and then she kind of flipped her lid

20:08

and jumped all over and hugged me because apparently

20:10

he said Bob's coming over and she didn't know

20:12

who Bob was, but she was a big listener

20:14

of the podcast. When I walked in she's like,

20:17

that Bob? Yeah, and

20:19

so we sat around and I helped them workshop names

20:21

for the podcast and how it was going to go.

20:24

I didn't know they were recording, right? So we're

20:26

just talking about what this podcast is going to

20:28

be and they're like, all right, well let's go.

20:31

And then the three of them went into

20:33

the booth and I was sitting outside with

20:35

Lisa's husband in the control room, like listening

20:37

to the podcast when they recorded the first

20:39

episode of Real Crime Profile. Yeah,

20:41

and we've always been friends since then. Every time

20:44

I've had a question about a case, I've gone

20:46

to Jim, the boys helped each other out if

20:48

he needs help promoting something or he wanted me

20:50

to be on his podcast or him to be

20:52

on my podcast. So it just over the years,

20:55

he's just become one of my really good friends.

20:57

And he came and sat in the audience when

20:59

we did our December meetup while

21:01

we were working on Pinion Pines. He came and

21:03

was just in the crowd and ended up, he

21:06

asked some questions and we ended up engaging with

21:08

him. So I think people who listened to the

21:10

podcast who were there in person got a chance

21:12

to interact with him. Yeah,

21:14

I think I ended up dragging him on stage and making

21:16

him, since he was sitting there, he might have told him

21:18

I'd do something, right? And then John Cryer showed up and

21:20

I had just said something. I made

21:23

some very specific reference to something. He's like,

21:25

hey, I just walked in when Janet said

21:27

she was a broken person or something. Is

21:29

this surreal? I

21:32

guess this is pretty surreal at this point. Yeah,

21:34

we just we just jogged John away from

21:36

putting up Christmas decorations with his family. Good

21:39

people. Jim come out, but yep. Good

21:41

people. Jennifer says,

21:43

I respect Jim Clemente a lot, but

21:45

questioned his conclusion about Steve Avery's guilt.

21:48

Avery may not be a good guy,

21:50

but the investigation seems corrupt. She's

21:52

not super familiar with Jim's full analysis of it.

21:54

And I would say I think

21:57

one of the things that calling back Josh Hallmer.

21:59

just for a moment. One of the things that

22:01

I appreciate so much about Josh and the name

22:03

of his production company

22:05

is Studio Both and, Studio Both

22:07

slash and, is so much

22:10

of what I feel like happens in true

22:12

crime can be both and. It can

22:15

be a very messed up investigation,

22:18

there can be corruption and the person

22:20

can be guilty. There can also

22:22

be corruption and the person can be entirely

22:24

innocent. So there's like, I

22:26

think that's one of those cases where

22:29

it's really complicated and I think both

22:31

and are possible. I'm not saying I'm

22:33

sure in any way, but for

22:35

me that's kind of one of the takeaways. Yeah,

22:39

as far as the Stephen Avery case, I'm

22:42

not terribly familiar with it. I've watched all

22:44

the documentaries about it. Well, not all

22:46

of them. I haven't watched the most recent one that

22:48

kind of combats what they did in making a

22:51

murderer and I've listened to some of Jim's stuff

22:53

on it. But I think what you have to

22:55

realize with all of that is, first of all,

22:57

I thought the first season of

22:59

making a murderer, anybody that listened

23:01

way back then, I had said then

23:03

that they made this guy seem so innocent

23:05

and I had just picked up on a

23:07

few things in the documentary that was

23:10

like, this was so spun

23:12

and swayed in a way. It did not

23:14

feel like an honest documentary or docu-series to

23:16

me. I remember the part where they showed

23:18

the blood vial and they made a big

23:21

deal because there was a hole poked in

23:23

the top of the blood vial and that

23:25

was like a huge crescendo, big mic

23:27

drop ending to one of the episodes and like, look

23:29

at this hole. Someone stuck a needle in here and

23:31

took the blood out. That's not supposed to be there.

23:33

Bum, bum, bum. And I'm thinking somebody who's worked in

23:36

the medical field, like, how do you think the blood

23:38

got in there? Dumb fuck. Pardon

23:40

my language. But it was like, what do you

23:42

mean? Every blood vial has that

23:44

hole in it. So it was

23:46

like that moment right there

23:48

to me was like, they're not being, because

23:51

I'm sure that attorney believed that when he

23:53

saw it, but certainly somewhere

23:55

along the way, they, someone had to have

23:57

said, no, that's perfectly normal, but they they

23:59

still aired it the way they aired it.

24:02

So I think that a lot of people who

24:04

have their opinions formed about that case or any

24:06

case comes from the documentary

24:09

and you gotta understand that's not the full picture.

24:11

It was done in a certain way to depict

24:13

things in a certain, to make

24:15

you think in a certain direction. I

24:18

don't have a strong opinion on the case. But

24:20

what I will say is that keep in mind, Jim's

24:23

a professional, he's very good at this and he

24:25

was working off the actual case documents that were

24:28

not part of the documentary. His

24:30

conclusion, while it could always be incorrect, we always have to

24:32

be open to that, it's certainly, it's kind of

24:34

the same thing I always say about me when I'm doing, when

24:37

people get mad at me because they don't like

24:39

a conclusion that I come to with one of

24:41

the cases that we've covered. So you can disagree

24:43

with my conclusion, but I want you to know

24:45

that I came by the conclusion honestly. Like

24:48

I analyze this data, this is, I try

24:50

to be very clear, this is my interpretation

24:52

of that data and then this is the

24:54

conclusion that I came to. And so many

24:56

times people wanna, because they don't like the

24:58

conclusion, they wanna attack and

25:00

argue that the person, that's not

25:02

the case. Like so, I mean, he came, I

25:04

will say this, I know Jim well enough to

25:06

know that he came to his conclusion honestly. Right.

25:10

Could it be wrong? Sure. And

25:12

could you disagree with it? Sure. But

25:14

I don't think, because I think part of

25:16

that comment was a

25:18

discussion about maybe losing respect for him.

25:21

No, that was a different, I think that was

25:23

a different post. A different comment. Yeah,

25:25

but I've seen people say, well, I lost respect for

25:27

Jim when he came to this different conclusion. You shouldn't

25:29

do that. Whether it's with me or with someone that

25:31

disagrees with me, it doesn't matter. If

25:33

the person did an honest analysis of the evidence

25:35

and came to a different conclusion than you, that

25:38

was kinda like in the season finale of the

25:40

reply brief series, what I was trying to explain

25:42

is, as long as everyone's

25:44

working with the same set of facts and

25:47

they're honestly analyzing it, if they come to

25:49

a different conclusion, that's not a lose respect

25:52

for them thing. It's not a be mad

25:54

at them thing. It's just a differing opinion

25:56

that we should all be, you should be

25:58

strong enough in your own belief. that you

26:00

can be comfortable with someone disagreeing with your

26:03

conclusion. Yeah, well said. It's

26:06

definitely scary to see all these documentaries

26:08

because they can be very persuasive. Mm-hmm.

26:11

You know, making a murder, I watched the first

26:13

two seasons making a murder and absolutely it was

26:16

like, Steve Navery is innocent.

26:18

There's no way he's not innocent based on

26:20

this. Yeah. I

26:22

haven't watched the second, I think it's called creating

26:25

a murder or something along those lines that's like

26:27

the rebuttal. I haven't watched that one yet, but

26:29

you do start to realize how persuasive these documentaries

26:31

are. I mean, just look at Paradise Lost. You

26:34

know, that first Paradise Lost came out years and years

26:37

and years ago and people to this day still think

26:39

John Mark Byers was the

26:41

predator in this case because of that film,

26:43

because they kind of portrayed him. Especially the

26:45

second one, the second Paradise Lost. You left

26:48

convinced John Mark Byers had his teeth pulled

26:50

out because he was chewing on those kids.

26:52

Yeah. And then the third

26:54

one comes out and then it's like, oh, nope, not

26:56

him. It's, you know, and that one left you convinced

26:58

that Terry Hobbs was the one that had done it.

27:01

And I don't even know that that was dishonest. But

27:03

what it does go to show you is I think

27:05

they were doing their best to look at the evidence

27:07

at hand that they had in front of them. But

27:09

what it goes to show you is that once

27:12

you put out that storyline, you can,

27:14

it's pretty easy to sway people

27:17

in a certain direction. And that's what

27:19

I'm care. Listen, this podcast would probably

27:21

be 10 times as popular as it

27:23

is if I did that. Right.

27:26

If I just only put stuff out to just rile everybody up

27:29

and convince everybody somebody's innocent. But what I try to

27:31

do is make sure that we're being intellectually honest, putting

27:33

out all the facts, explaining

27:35

along the way how

27:38

we're reaching our conclusions

27:40

and then letting people decide for themselves. It's

27:42

not nearly as popular, but it's the fair

27:44

and just way to do it. Absolutely. Yeah.

27:48

By the way, just want to go back for a moment

27:50

because I think I just caught up and saw that it

27:52

looked like we had Dr.

27:54

Shiloh perhaps here or hopefully still

27:56

here and from LA not so

27:59

confidential. Another great resource. if, for

28:01

example, you're interested in some of

28:03

the kind of, you know, the

28:05

material, the sensitive stuff that speaks

28:07

to someone's background, their

28:10

culture, where they come from, what

28:12

happens to them that causes them

28:14

to behave in the way that

28:16

they do. It's another great behavioral

28:18

analysis forensic podcast where they are

28:20

very sensitively talking about all of

28:22

the different ways that people can

28:25

behave either counter to the

28:27

law or counter to kindness and compassion.

28:29

You know, we all are capable of

28:31

some element of that. But another great

28:33

resource, if you're interested in, you know,

28:35

what makes people tick and why they

28:37

do what they do, and they deep

28:39

dive way back into all of these

28:41

reasons that, you know, these behaviors manifest

28:44

and also very sensitive. So another

28:46

great resource for you there. Lynn

28:48

is asking a question about the

28:50

upcoming case. So I'm probably, I'll

28:53

maybe save that for last. You

28:55

can decide if you want to give us any

28:57

more hints. And then we have some questions

29:01

about any updates on Adnan. We

29:03

have questions on Kaylana

29:05

Turner. There was some body cam footage. So

29:07

I think we sort of rounded out the

29:10

gym portion, but we do have some kind of

29:12

remaining questions that I don't know if you want to

29:14

maybe get into it all. Yeah,

29:16

we can do that. I had put in the in

29:19

the post for the follow up. This is the last of season

29:21

14. So this, if you've got your,

29:23

ask me anything questions, this is the time to do

29:25

it. Because we're all into the new case starting on

29:28

Sunday. So what do you got? Well,

29:30

let's touch on the body cam footage. I don't

29:32

know if you've had a chance to see that

29:34

there there are links that have been posted in

29:36

on our Facebook page. Kaylana Turner,

29:39

obviously being the young lady that we

29:41

talked about when we were doing our

29:43

missing missing persons coverage. We

29:45

also had given the update that her

29:48

remains had unfortunately been found. Very,

29:50

very sad case, very emotional case. And

29:52

something that I know many of us

29:55

felt very deeply about and have followed

29:57

since and the police there was

29:59

body cam Footage that had been released and

30:01

I Bob have you had a chance to see it Zach

30:03

have your chance to see any thoughts if you have I

30:06

have not got a chance to see it. Yeah, I

30:08

watch I think I read somewhere that there's a link

30:10

to a longer Version of

30:12

it, but I've watched the kind of shorter version. It's

30:14

just speaking of hard to watch It's hard

30:16

to watch, you know, she was it's very

30:18

clear that the police it seems to me

30:21

Anyway came up to Kaylon in her car

30:24

with a bias in mind. They thought they were dealing with

30:27

With someone that was up to no good They thought

30:29

they were dealing with someone that was on drugs and

30:31

they treated her Like a criminal

30:33

and they were they were very forceful with her

30:35

they were and

30:38

now us knowing that none of those things were

30:40

true that she was she was kind of having

30:42

a breakdown and And was having

30:44

issues with her with her medications You

30:46

can just you can absolutely see how she got

30:48

so frightened to drive because you know They kind

30:51

of they tried to demonize her really the police

30:53

to you know through the press when that one

30:55

that happened that She was driving

30:57

through vandalizing people's property and driving through fences and

30:59

doing all this But then you see that body

31:01

cam footage and to me you

31:03

can you can see why she reacted that way What did

31:06

you have and did you see a Janet? Yeah,

31:08

I did watch it. I did watch it

31:10

It was it's a tough watch and you

31:12

know, I've saw comments from people saying, you

31:14

know shame on the cops I've

31:17

seen posts from people saying look, you know

31:19

in the context in which they were introduced

31:21

to what was going on It just seemed

31:24

like a reckless driver who

31:26

clearly was like you said there's something

31:28

going on they assumed drugs who is

31:30

destroying property who is Avoiding

31:32

at all costs being taken by them

31:35

and and whatever conclusions they're drawing about

31:37

what that might mean either way It's

31:40

a really hard watch and when there was

31:42

a moment When one

31:45

of the police officers breaks the driver

31:47

side window when you know when Kayla

31:49

is in it And that was very

31:51

hard to watch. It was just very

31:53

upsetting very scary and you

31:56

know I as a person with

31:58

you know more experience in the

32:00

mental health world, both

32:02

for myself and people I care about, then

32:04

I have in criminal behavior

32:07

or drug use that

32:09

would result in that kind of behavior.

32:11

It was heartbreaking for me because I

32:13

– and we have the

32:15

information we have now. If you

32:18

already were in a place of a breakdown

32:20

or a psychotic break or anything like that,

32:23

having police sort of chasing you down,

32:26

that can very quickly, if not immediately,

32:28

feel like you're in danger and so

32:30

you're trying to do all of these

32:32

things to keep yourself safe. So

32:35

it's just heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Yeah.

32:37

And the big takeaway for me is for

32:40

law enforcement, we've talked about this in

32:42

other cases, there has to be a

32:45

focus on de-escalation and

32:48

community with the police department. And that's

32:50

what was lacking here. I mean, regardless

32:52

of what they thought was going on

32:54

with Kayla Naturner, she was in

32:56

no way a danger to anyone. I

32:58

mean, nothing was on fire. There was no reason for

33:01

any of that. There was no reason to hurry. There

33:03

was no reason to break the window. I

33:05

feel like we would have such a different outcome and

33:07

I believe wholeheartedly that Kayla would

33:09

still be alive today had

33:12

they taken a step back, calmed

33:14

down and spoke to her

33:17

in a calm manner and treated her

33:19

even if she was high on drugs

33:21

or whatever they thought was going on.

33:24

The outcome is always going to be better

33:28

if you approach that person with some

33:30

sensitivity and in a way

33:32

to protect them, not just the people that were

33:34

living in the neighborhood, but whether

33:36

they're addicted to drugs or whatever the issue

33:38

is, they're still a human being. These are

33:41

still struggles that we all have. Everybody's

33:44

got their struggles. There was

33:46

no reason whatsoever for them to react the

33:48

way that they did. I think if they

33:50

had learned and

33:52

put into effect more de-escalation

33:55

practices, I think that she would be

33:57

alive. I'm almost sure of it. I

34:00

think that she could have been coaxed out of

34:02

that car. Or,

34:04

you know, and maybe it didn't, maybe that took

34:06

till morning. But so what? You

34:09

know, what happens? What changes if they

34:12

don't get her out of that car until noon

34:15

the next day? Does anybody hurt?

34:18

No, no one was in danger. There was no reason for any of it.

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STAPLE20. ["Staple

35:44

20"] Yeah,

35:51

it's hard to hear. I mean, it feels, I'm

35:54

probably gonna get in trouble for saying this, but it

35:56

has that feel. Unfortunately, from being

35:58

a part of generation. who have

36:00

had exposure to the show Cops, you know,

36:03

and like all of these, when everything was

36:05

just like, let's follow real cops around, and

36:07

I know that that's still very popular, but

36:09

you see that body cam footage, and you

36:12

really feel the rush of like, adrenaline

36:15

and testosterone. Again, don't hate me, I'm

36:17

not saying I hate men, but there's

36:19

this sense of like, you know, they're

36:21

talking about it very disparagingly, they're like,

36:23

there's a sense of like, we're gonna

36:25

get that B, you know? And

36:27

I mean, they actually might even say something just like

36:30

that, what I just said. And

36:32

it's just very hard, it's very, very hard

36:34

to listen to. And, you know, again, not

36:36

to just like keep gushing about LA not

36:38

so confidential, but you know, that's what Dr.

36:40

Scott is doing, like implementing

36:42

this idea of having a mental

36:45

health care professional who is part

36:47

of that process, trying

36:49

to identify what's really going on and can

36:51

we de-escalate this, and how do we keep

36:53

everyone else safe, but ideally have a better

36:55

understanding of what's going on with this person

36:57

as well, and you know, not

36:59

make them the quote unquote enemy. You

37:02

know, when I, it makes me think when I was

37:04

watching the video, back to when I was a fireman,

37:07

and I had developed a risk assessment model that I

37:09

used to travel around the country and teach. And

37:12

it was like this certain set of circumstances. And

37:14

in that case, the idea was for incident

37:17

commanders to assess the level

37:20

of risk they're willing to take based

37:22

on what they can actually

37:24

save. You know, it would seem simplistic, but

37:26

in the heat of the battle, you know,

37:29

at a fire, firemen die,

37:31

firefighters die all the time because of stupid

37:33

decisions made by an incident commander where they're

37:35

sending people inside of a house where there's

37:37

nobody home, there's no life to be saved.

37:41

The house isn't even gonna be saved. So why are

37:43

we risking people's lives to go in there? So it

37:45

developed this like risk assessment model. And I feel like

37:47

there should be something like that on the law enforcement

37:49

side. Like I think there should be a

37:52

set of circumstances that they

37:54

can go through. And the first question should

37:56

be, is there a threat to life? If

38:00

there's not a threat to life, then we're gonna step

38:02

way back in

38:04

how we approach this. Because my model is based

38:06

on is there a life at risk, is

38:09

there property at risk, and then also balancing that out

38:12

with is that life-savable and

38:14

is the property savable? And that's how

38:16

you assess how much you determine how

38:18

much risk you're willing to take. And

38:21

in this case, I think it should be something similar to that, but

38:24

it's based on is there a risk

38:26

to life, is there a risk to

38:28

property? If so, then

38:31

what actions are we willing to take? Do

38:33

we need to break out a window because

38:35

someone sitting in a car happens to be

38:37

in a ritzy neighborhood where they don't like

38:40

a stranger in their neighborhood? The

38:42

actions were not warranted by the situation at

38:44

all. Yeah, I mean, just

38:47

very gently push back on that because again,

38:49

I have a real hard time with that

38:51

body cam footage. I mean,

38:53

because property is being destroyed because it's

38:56

a vehicle, you can see again in

38:58

the moment, how

39:00

someone very adrenalized would be like, this person

39:02

is in a car, that is a killing

39:04

machine. If they get onto a road in

39:06

this state of mind, they could hit someone

39:08

and kill them. Like you can see how

39:10

you could- But I'm talking about before that.

39:13

Well, yeah. Before she starts, I

39:15

guess she's always in the car, but before she

39:17

starts moving when she's just sitting there, when the

39:19

whole incident begins, how

39:22

could they address that at that point?

39:24

Because from at least the clip that I

39:26

saw, they came at her extremely

39:29

aggressively from Jump Street, right from

39:31

the beginning. You know, they

39:33

amped the situation up instead of bringing it down.

39:36

Maybe there's longer version that I haven't seen in the-

39:38

No, I saw a shorter version where they only show

39:42

from the point at which she's destroying

39:44

property. So,

39:46

but I remember from our

39:48

coverage of it that every

39:51

sign seemed to be that it could have been de-escalated. So,

39:54

I absolutely agree. I'm just saying once they're

39:57

in, once they're in that mode and- that's

40:00

happening, then they're like, well,

40:02

yeah, we gotta, you know, again, I'm

40:05

not saying I agree with it. And

40:07

maybe it was the longer version I saw, because I

40:09

feel like what I was watching was started before anything

40:11

really got set into motion. She just sitting it off.

40:13

Yeah, I saw a news clip where they're showing, and

40:18

by this time she's doing XYZ, and so you're

40:20

just seeing her kind of run down the fence.

40:22

And I'm sure, frankly, that that's the footage, that

40:25

that's kind of the only part of the footage

40:27

that the police would prefer.

40:30

Prior to that, it started with her just

40:32

sitting in the free car, and then they

40:34

scared the shit out of her, and

40:37

she took off. A

40:40

big thing for me with the whole situation is

40:42

lack of compassion, and not just from the police,

40:44

but from the residents that are there. I

40:46

mean, they just immediately called the police and said, there's a drug

40:48

addict here, please come get them. They

40:52

could have tried to see if there's anything wrong.

40:55

It's just simple. I mean, compassion to another human

40:57

being, it's a very small

40:59

thing, and it's very easy to do. And

41:01

then so many people lack in it

41:03

these days. It's heartbreaking. Yeah,

41:06

well, Shiloh says in general, that is what police

41:08

de-escalation is, especially when there's no crime. There's no

41:10

need to make the situation worse. Why

41:12

cause worse to happen rather than preventing

41:15

it? Huge, and Shiloh says spot on,

41:17

Zach, to what you just said. Sue

41:20

said she really enjoyed that interview with Jim,

41:22

has a general question, wondering if there's any

41:24

progress on Adnan's case. How much longer

41:26

does he have to wait for this to end?

41:28

Surely if they tested the DNA of unknown persons,

41:30

they would have found something by now, and does

41:32

he qualify for any kind of compensation from the

41:35

state of Maryland for wrongful conviction and incarceration? I

41:38

mean, we're really in the dark with all that right now,

41:40

because we're just still just waiting for the Supreme Court of

41:42

Maryland to determine if his conviction

41:44

remains overturned right now. So I don't know if

41:47

it, so if there's anything happening behind the scenes

41:49

with Ivan Bates, the new prosecutor, I don't know.

41:51

I don't think anybody knows if he's still working.

41:53

Remember, it was Marilyn Mosby, her

41:56

office is the one that exonerated him, and

41:58

then she's out of the office. of office now,

42:01

Ivan Bates is in office, but it's the cases

42:03

living up in the Supreme Court right now. So

42:06

I would like to hope that he's

42:08

continued on with any DNA work

42:10

that's being done, but I don't know. As far as

42:12

compensation, I really don't know about that either. I mean,

42:14

we're just kind of, we're stalled right now until we

42:16

get a ruling from the Supreme Court. Okay.

42:20

And then let's finally attack

42:22

Lynn's question here about this

42:25

upcoming season. Anything you're

42:27

willing to share. Lynn says,

42:29

will you share the time between the

42:31

crime incident, the arrest, and the trial

42:33

of our new case? Where are

42:35

they in their appellate process? Has there been

42:38

any support from outside the immediate circle of

42:40

this person, or are we the first to

42:42

reinvestigate this case? Any little

42:44

breadcrumbs are you willing to drop there? Anything at

42:47

all? I love how she's like, are there any

42:49

little breadcrumbs I would like these seven specific things?

42:52

Classic truth and justice, classic Lynn. Yeah.

42:56

What can I tell you? It wasn't

42:58

super long between the incident and the

43:00

arrest. Trial came

43:03

six months later, about. It was the next

43:05

year. So this happened in 2001. The

43:10

arrest happened in 2001, and then the trial happened in 2002. So

43:15

the convicted person has now been in prison for 22

43:18

years for this. Outside

43:21

there's been some attempts at outside.

43:24

This is how cases end up with us. There'll

43:27

be an attempt to help, and

43:30

then they realize that it's going to take actual

43:32

investigative work and boots on

43:34

the ground to do it. So

43:37

that's how it got passed on to Rabia, who then passed it on

43:40

to me, because this is not a case where it says, oh, we're

43:42

just going to test some DNA. The appellate

43:44

process is, obviously, direct appeals are

43:46

gone. There's been a shot at

43:48

habeas already. That's part of

43:50

what I'm waiting to get from the prosecutor's office right now.

43:52

I did get half of my FOIA request from them. It's

43:55

the investigative piece up to the trial, and

43:57

I'm waiting on the appellate piece. So I

43:59

can see all of that from my understanding.

44:02

They made an attempt at

44:04

representing themselves in an appeal, which is

44:07

kind of, in habeas, which is kind

44:09

of unfortunate because kind of

44:12

burned an option. I think that, I

44:14

think with the right attorney might have

44:16

been successful at that point,

44:19

but we've got other things that we've already found that

44:21

I think they can, we

44:23

have enough now already, I think, that can get the case

44:25

back into court. The big part of what

44:27

we're going to be doing is obviously fully investigating the case,

44:30

trying to determine who actually did it, find the information

44:32

and the evidence that we need to get the conviction

44:35

overturned, and then get that

44:37

into the hands of an attorney that can

44:39

take the ball across the finish line. So

44:41

I'm very confident about this one, and

44:45

I'm sure that didn't answer all your questions, Lynn,

44:47

but it's as good as I can. Well,

44:51

there were some clear answers in there. That's great.

44:54

Super helpful. Very exciting. And on Sunday,

44:56

I'm looking forward to it. On Sunday,

44:58

you'll know the name, you'll know some

45:00

details, and you'll all be able to

45:03

start digging. Which, by the way,

45:05

I'm dying too, because I want you guys,

45:07

because I'm a bad Googler. So

45:10

I've already had one of our

45:12

listeners that has figured

45:15

out what the case was, that has already sent me

45:17

out of them. I'm like, yes, I'm having a hard

45:19

time finding, because it was 2001, there's not a lot

45:21

online finding articles and stories

45:23

about it. And she's like, oh, here's seven

45:25

newspaper articles I found about it. So

45:28

I'm looking forward to when you guys, tapping

45:31

into the resource of all of you to digging into

45:33

more of it. Because one thing I will tell you

45:36

that I've been struggling with is I have not been

45:38

able to find anyone that

45:40

is related to the victim. And that always drives

45:42

me, I always at least, whether they're going to

45:44

come on the show or not, I always want

45:46

to have that conversation. But

45:49

it seems like the family, like I've been in the

45:51

neighborhood with people that lived there back then all around

45:53

that time, and they don't know who he was. They

45:56

don't know who their family were,

45:58

I give them some names. never heard of

46:00

them. So, you know, it's been so long

46:02

ago. I don't think they're necessarily in the

46:05

area anymore. So, yeah, I'm hoping maybe once

46:07

we put this out there, that that'll change too, as we get

46:09

moving. So exciting. And if anybody

46:11

needed any further proof that you're a bad

46:13

Googler, they need look no further than finding

46:15

out what you found out about Jim Clemente

46:18

and why you thought you needed to talk

46:20

to him. It's a priceless story. To

46:22

be fair, to be fair, at

46:25

that time, that

46:27

was the thing he was most well known for

46:29

was his book. Was he? Because he was

46:32

definitely writing I was

46:36

already been a prosecutor and definitely had already been

46:38

a criminal profiler. Indeed.

46:41

But this is 2015. Right. So

46:43

like true crime podcasting isn't really

46:45

taken off yet. And all of

46:47

us now all the these nine

46:49

years later that everybody knows what

46:51

a profiler is. And everybody that

46:54

wasn't necessarily the case back then. We weren't

46:56

paying attention to who was writing that silly

46:58

show that Jim's on. All

47:01

right, everybody. This has been a

47:03

great conversation. Looking forward to Sunday.

47:07

Let's dive into the new case. We love

47:09

you, Bob. Yeah. And you know what? That's

47:11

great because I don't want to make this edit any longer

47:13

for Erica Tamarka. She'll be editing tomorrow while I'm finishing up some

47:15

of the writing and I want her to get done so she

47:17

can help me. So let's

47:19

not make it any longer. So all you

47:21

guys, we love you guys. Thanks so much

47:23

for tuning in. Thanks for putting up with

47:25

this long bonus stretch of episodes while we

47:27

get things going. But I promise it'll all

47:29

be rewarded on Sunday and two days when

47:31

we launched season 15, episode

47:34

one, the title of

47:36

which will be Across the Bridge. Bye

47:40

guys. Thanks, everybody. Let's

47:42

go. Yeah.

47:55

Truth and Justice is an NBI Studios

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and composed by Shane Yoder and

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50:01

However you do it, stay engaged, stay in

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touch. But as for now we're signing off,

50:06

I'm Bob Roff. I'm Zach Weaver. And

50:08

I'm Janet Varney. And this has

50:11

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