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Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

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or on Apple Podcasts.

0:09

This episode contains explicit language.

0:19

From Wondery, this is a bonus episode

0:21

of Twin Flames. I'm

0:31

Saachi Cole, one of the hosts of Scamfluencers,

0:33

where we unpack stories about how the desire

0:36

for power and influence often leads

0:38

to fame and fortune, but ultimately

0:40

ruin. And I'm Sarah Hagee,

0:43

the other host of Scamfluencers. In

0:45

our show, we tell the stories of insidious

0:47

scamfluencers who use charm and charisma

0:49

to sell a beautiful promise. And

0:52

Twin Flames' universe had the most beautiful

0:54

promise of all.

0:56

You two can have harmonious

0:58

union forever. But

1:01

what happens when that promise goes

1:03

terribly wrong? I

1:06

no longer knew who I was. I was

1:09

spiraling. In the Wondery podcast,

1:12

Twin Flames, we looked at how power

1:14

and coercion are adapting in our modern

1:16

world and the lengths people are going to

1:18

get what they want. And now there's

1:20

a three-part Amazon Prime Video docuseries

1:24

called Desperately Seeking Soulmate, Escaping

1:26

Twin Flames Universe. A twin

1:28

flame is like a super spiritual

1:31

soulmate,

1:32

someone who is actually the other half

1:34

of your soul. So

1:37

there's this divine component to it where this

1:39

connection that you have with your twin flame

1:42

supposedly continues across multiple

1:44

lifetimes. And it's

1:46

an idea that's really gaining currency.

1:49

The docuseries features journalist Alice

1:51

Hines, who first reported on Twin Flames'

1:53

universe in 2020 in Vanity Fair, and

1:56

who spent time up close with the group's leaders.

1:58

Footage from her reporting is available on our website.

1:59

is featured in the documentary. And in this

2:02

episode, we'll be talking with Alice about how

2:04

she found Twin Flames Universe, what

2:06

it was like meeting the leaders in person, and

2:08

why the group still seems to be growing

2:10

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3:49

Alice, thanks for joining us.

3:50

Thanks for having me. Okay, so I'm

3:53

curious how you developed this beat

3:55

of like weird internet groups. So

3:58

what drew you to them and then how did you?

3:59

decide I'm gonna build a career

4:02

out of this. I mean,

4:04

I think I just being a person

4:06

on the internet, I was drawn to these weird

4:08

groups. I mean, I spend a

4:11

lot of my story ideas from social media, from

4:13

forums, from Reddit.

4:15

That's actually where I found people first talking

4:17

about Twin Flames universe. And

4:20

yeah, I think I just built this beat because

4:22

I'm 35 years old and I grew up in an era

4:24

where there is just like so

4:26

many fringe cultures online

4:28

and I feel like that's really interesting. And

4:31

so I think that just made me

4:33

like a real like internet wormhole

4:35

person. I've always been that way. And

4:38

then as a journalist, you find ideas. So

4:40

I definitely gravitate towards these

4:42

fringes of internet culture and

4:45

one of which is Twin Flames universe. Just

4:47

to explain it, what are Twin

4:49

Flames exactly and where does the

4:51

notion of Twin Flames even come from?

4:54

So a Twin Flame is

4:56

basically like a super spiritual

4:59

soulmate. So this is

5:01

a perfect partner and it's actually

5:04

like supposed to be the other half

5:06

of your soul. So supposedly

5:08

in the Twin Flames theology,

5:11

we're all created with this

5:13

divine counterpart and you're

5:15

kind of magnetically attracted to that person

5:17

across multiple lifetimes. So

5:20

a lot of different spiritual teachers reference

5:22

this idea and I tried to research

5:25

the history of it and I did research the history

5:27

of it when I was first writing my article for

5:29

Vanity Fair. And the first instance

5:32

I came across of someone

5:34

talking about a Twin Flame was actually

5:36

in kind of like the late 19th century.

5:39

There were these almost

5:41

proto sci-fi writers who were talking

5:44

about they're interested in Eastern

5:46

spirituality and theology and they

5:48

were kind of talking about Twin Flames

5:51

being magnetically attracted and kind of comparing

5:53

that to this new technology of electricity.

5:56

And to me that was really interesting because more than a hundred

5:58

years later, here you have Jeff and Shalia,

6:00

who are spreading the gospel of

6:02

Twin Flames via the internet and have actually

6:05

created what a lot of people think is a cult purely

6:07

on the internet. And so they're also harnessing

6:10

this new technology to kind of get

6:12

people to fall in love, but in

6:15

some like really weird and questionable ways.

6:18

I love and hate to hear

6:20

how cyclical things are. We

6:22

never invent anything new. It's

6:25

so interesting. And there's

6:27

another person who is an accused cult

6:29

leader who was talking about Twin Flames

6:31

in the 70s, this woman Elizabeth Clare

6:33

Prophet, who you can like Google

6:36

and go into a wormhole on that if you want. But

6:38

yeah, basically, she would write

6:40

books about Twin Flames and also was

6:42

telling her followers

6:45

to stockpile firearms for the

6:47

nuclear Armageddon. So this

6:49

has been a kind of fringe idea of

6:51

people who a lot of people think are cult leaders

6:54

for a long time. So are people

6:56

just like going on the internet and looking

6:59

for like, for an answer

7:02

to like a yawning loneliness?

7:05

Like what are people looking for that they're finding

7:07

Twin Flames content online?

7:09

Well first of all, most people look for love online

7:11

these days. It's one of the most common ways to

7:14

try to find someone because... And it works. It

7:16

always works. It's flawless. It's

7:19

a flawless... No, but it often works.

7:21

I mean, it can work and we all

7:23

know success stories. So I think if you're

7:25

looking for love, one of the

7:28

places you're going to turn first is a dating app

7:30

and you're going to be online. You might be reading

7:32

articles about online dating, but

7:35

I do think that there's a problem with

7:37

dating today or something that a lot of people think is a problem,

7:39

which is that it does take a little bit of the romance

7:42

and mystery out of it to be looking for love

7:44

on an app. So people are like swiping.

7:46

It almost feels like you're like online shopping

7:48

or something. You're just like, yes, no, yes, no.

7:51

And there's these kind of like actions

7:53

that we associate with like more just like kind

7:55

of consumer culture. It doesn't really feel like

7:58

falling in love, just like looking at... these pictures

8:00

of people that, and these listings of like potential

8:03

love interests. And so I think people

8:05

are really disenchanted with

8:07

the commodification of dating online,

8:10

even though that's the place to find someone,

8:13

that's one of the only places you can find someone,

8:16

that a lot of people can find someone. So people

8:19

want to find mystery,

8:21

spirituality, connection, they want love

8:24

to be like something that's bigger than

8:26

just like a swipe. And that's why

8:29

places like Twin Flames Universe are really gaining

8:31

currency. Cause they offer that, they

8:34

offer a greater meaning in love. Just

8:36

to take it

8:37

to Jeff and Shalia specifically,

8:40

how did you get them to talk to you and

8:42

why did they want to

8:43

talk to you?

8:45

Yeah, that's such a good question. And I thought about

8:47

it a lot because it didn't always make sense when

8:49

I was reporting the story. But so I

8:52

found, I'll just tell you how

8:55

I built the story from the beginning. And I think that will answer

8:57

some of your questions. So

8:59

I found Twin Flames Universe on Reddit. I

9:01

started researching it. I started talking to

9:03

people who are posting about it online. I

9:06

was watching a lot of Jeff and Shalia's content.

9:08

I was realizing that this was gonna

9:11

be a big story because I joined

9:13

their private Facebook group and I saw Jeff

9:15

post that he was the master Christ. And I was

9:17

like, wait, what? I was like, okay, this

9:19

is not just another matchmaking

9:22

group. Like this is like something really

9:24

weird is going on here. And like people

9:26

are liking the post. People are like commenting.

9:29

It's not just what he said it. People are like, yeah.

9:31

People are into it. People are like, oh yeah,

9:33

master Christ. And I'm just like, wait, what the fuck?

9:35

I'm just lurking on this forum, like reading all this

9:37

stuff. Just like what the actual hell.

9:40

And then on YouTube, they have kind of a different

9:42

persona. Like Jeff is on YouTube with

9:45

his wife Shalia and they're more

9:47

doing like women's magazine topics. It's like

9:50

stuff like, oh, like how to get back with your ex.

9:52

Like stuff that's like way more down to earth. And yes,

9:54

it has a spiritual spin, but it's like much

9:56

more like relatable dating topics. And then

9:59

like in their private forum. under the master Christ.

10:01

So what the fuck, right? And

10:03

so basically, I did,

10:06

I did a good amount of reporting

10:08

before I reached out to them before I reached

10:10

out to them, because you only have one shot to

10:12

basically like send your email and, you

10:15

know, make that first impression. And if they said

10:18

no, then I still could have written a story,

10:20

but it wouldn't have been the story that I was able to write.

10:22

And so, yes, did a lot of research,

10:24

I actually purchased

10:26

their classes. So they have an

10:29

online library of classes that they

10:31

sell for like, I think, like, it's $4,000,

10:34

or a bit more to purchase

10:36

like the entire library. And that's how they make their money, right?

10:38

So like, these are these, like group therapy

10:41

sessions where they like demonstrate their

10:43

methods. And some of them, I found

10:45

when I bought the content, and I watched it,

10:47

I mean, there's some of them are very abusive,

10:49

but I didn't know that yet when I first bought

10:52

them. So I bought the content and they sent

10:54

me an email, like, thanks so much for your purchase,

10:56

like welcome to the Twin Flames universe. And then

10:59

also, it was a good opportunity to introduce myself to Jeff

11:01

and Shalia, because they're reaching out to me, I reply

11:03

to the email, I say, Hey, I'm a journalist, I'm writing

11:05

an article for Vanity Fair, I'm really interested in Twin

11:07

Flames. So we get this email chain going

11:10

between me, Jeff and Shalia. And

11:12

I was honestly shocked, not

11:15

shocked, but I was surprised by

11:17

how like, excited they

11:19

were to hear from me, I didn't know if they would

11:21

be skeptical, or if they would be kind of wary.

11:24

But, you know, I, at this

11:26

point, there had been negative coverage of

11:28

them in the past. So I wasn't, you

11:30

know, they knew I had read that. And I

11:33

even said that I was aware of the controversy

11:35

around the organization. So it wasn't as if they

11:37

weren't, like conscious of the

11:39

possibility that a journalist

11:41

could be critical, journalists had been critical of

11:43

them in the past. So that was one of the really

11:46

interesting things, you know, why were

11:48

they so warm to me? I

11:50

mean, they invited me to their house, like,

11:53

I pretty quickly, I think I asked

11:55

if I could visit and interview them

11:57

in person. And they and they said, yes, you

11:59

know, We had this email chain going about Twin Flames,

12:01

the relevance of Twin Flames. I think they liked the questions

12:04

I was asking. And then I also think that they

12:06

were very keen to get more

12:08

eyeballs on their content. And that was a theme

12:11

when I was writing about them. And

12:13

then in 2020, you actually go to their home, which

12:16

there's footage

12:16

of in the docuseries. When I showed

12:18

up at their house, it

12:21

was really disorienting. I

12:23

was like, oh my God, I'm actually here. So

12:26

this is my love

12:26

you. The

12:29

first thing you'll notice about our grass is it's got a

12:31

lot of weeds in it. But it's like

12:34

our lawn guy kind of came to the house. He

12:37

said that this is what it, this

12:39

is what's best.

12:41

It's very Cribs suburban

12:43

Michigan edition. So what

12:45

was your impression of them when you saw them? Because

12:47

you'd seen all this footage

12:48

on YouTube of them, but that's very different

12:50

from actually meeting someone.

12:52

So what was that like?

12:54

It was so wild to meet them in person, because

12:56

at the point when I got to their house, I had

12:58

watched so many hours of their content. So

13:00

it almost felt like I had a parasocial relationship

13:03

with them where I felt like I knew them. I

13:08

knew their quirks, I knew their laughs.

13:11

And then to actually have them come to be at

13:13

their house and have them be in the flesh like as close as

13:15

I am to you right now was like, I was

13:17

honestly nervous. And I don't really get that

13:19

nervous. I've covered a lot of weird shit in the past.

13:22

I spent, I did

13:24

a whole article on incels. I've

13:26

been on some really weird like fringe communities

13:28

of like scary things. And I,

13:31

but I was scared when I first got to their house

13:33

because it was just like, well, first of all, I was

13:35

alone. I like, I was

13:37

far from home. They, you

13:39

know, I flew from New York to Michigan

13:42

in June of 2020 in a time when like no

13:44

one was flying.

13:46

And like, it was kind of weird for me to

13:48

even, I had to really push to my editors

13:50

to actually let me travel during this time. But I knew

13:53

that it was super important to meet them in

13:55

person because precisely

13:57

because all of their followers are the vast

13:59

majority. of their followers never have that IRL

14:02

connection. They only see them online. And

14:04

so I'm like, well, who are they though behind the

14:06

camera and what are they like? And so

14:08

yeah, I definitely got a big, big dose

14:10

of that. The weekend that I was there. Was

14:12

it like, oh yeah, I get it. Like these are really charming

14:15

people. They're really magnetic. Or were

14:17

you like, these are just two people who

14:19

have invited me over? No, I think there is something there. Like

14:21

I think there is, and maybe it is the, like

14:26

they are definitely just like two basic

14:28

people. Do you see that in the videos? It

14:30

looks like them. They're shockingly

14:33

normal. They're shockingly normal. And

14:35

they're like joking about their dog. And like they

14:37

make like, they make like really like juvenile

14:39

jokes sometimes like about like sex. And

14:41

you're kind of just like, what is, like, what do you think?

14:44

Yeah, they're just YouTubers. Yeah, they're

14:46

just like very basic Midwestern

14:48

YouTubers sometimes. But then they have

14:50

this whole thing where they're like, well, no, I'm the master Christ.

14:52

And so I think they have like multiple personas

14:55

where they like, you know, you become

14:57

very, you're like, you're relating to them. They seem like

14:59

super down to earth. You're like, oh, well, these are normal people

15:01

who found love. So maybe they do have the answers.

15:04

Like I'm a normal person looking for love. Like that,

15:06

I relate to that. And I think they get people in the door that

15:08

way. And then once people are in the door, then

15:11

that's when the like, we

15:13

have a divine channel to God and

15:15

we can tell you who your twin flame is. And we have all

15:17

the answers, right? And so, and that

15:19

part is scary, even if you don't buy

15:21

it, like just to show up there and to be

15:23

in their space. And they think they're the master

15:26

Christ, right? So it's like, you're kind of like

15:28

on edge. You're like, how do I act around these people?

15:30

So I know at one point during your visit

15:32

to

15:32

the house, you discovered something really disturbing.

15:35

Here's a clip of it from the docu-series. And,

15:38

uh, our household has a couple

15:41

of like four scene right now.

15:43

Things got even stranger when

15:45

I went to the basement. They had

15:47

a few students who were actually living

15:49

in their house. I know

15:51

that was a moment

15:52

where I was like,

15:53

what? Can you tell me a little bit more

15:56

about the dynamic between Jeff and Chalea

15:58

and their resident followers?

15:59

in the house?

16:02

It was really interesting to see the dynamic between

16:04

them and the people who are their followers.

16:07

There were four people in the quote unquote spiritual boot camp

16:09

who were living in their house and those people,

16:12

it's so funny because, you

16:14

know, one of those people is Brianna, who's

16:17

a big part of our docu-series

16:19

and, you know, she's a very intelligent person.

16:21

Like you talk to her, she seems like someone who's

16:23

very thoughtful. She doesn't

16:26

seem like someone who is just taking

16:29

a different person's

16:31

advice and just like not thinking about it. She's

16:34

aware of the critiques of

16:36

Twin Flames universe being a cult, but at the

16:38

same time, she's so in awe of Jeff

16:40

and Shalia and she's really just enraptured

16:43

and gets like kind of upset even

16:45

talking about their haters

16:47

and people online who criticize them. And

16:50

it was really, you know, one of the people

16:52

I met at their house told me that, you know, he

16:54

was starstruck when he met Jeff and Shalia

16:57

in person. Like he felt like he was meeting a celebrity.

17:00

And I think that they really, they

17:02

push that dynamic. They push the

17:04

power hierarchy between them and their

17:06

followers. And I really definitely saw that in person

17:09

just in terms of how deferential they, their

17:11

followers would be to Jeff and Shalia like at the dinner table,

17:14

how they were, you know,

17:16

they really listened to them. Anytime Jeff and Shalia

17:18

made a point, the followers were just like nodding,

17:21

like responding to that, like they were hanging

17:23

on their every word. And

17:26

yeah, so I think, I

17:29

think that's pretty revealing actually

17:31

about why Jeff and Shalia,

17:34

you know, have this idea of themselves as

17:36

a master crisis. They all, they have people

17:39

currently constantly around them reaffirming

17:41

that.

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19:19

So Alice, I know when you visited Jeff

19:21

and Shalia, one of the

19:22

things you wanted to see was them filming

19:24

one of their YouTube videos,

19:26

but that didn't really go as planned.

19:28

This is my new friend, Alice Hines. Don't

19:31

worry, she's just my friend. She

19:33

is not my new twin flame

19:35

or anything like that. He insisted on me

19:37

being in

19:38

the YouTube video and kind of interviewing

19:40

me. I love when a source

19:41

wants you to participate.

19:45

Alice, why do you think Jeff wanted you to

19:47

be a part of this video with him?

19:49

Jeff was trying to get to the bottom of whether I believed

19:52

in twin flames the entire time

19:54

I was at their house. So

19:56

this was a huge theme of like the dynamic

19:59

between me and. and Jeff Anshalia while I

20:01

visited them. When I first walked in the door, they

20:03

did a tarot reading. And

20:05

they were like, they tried to use it to

20:09

get me to come out of my shell. And

20:11

I quickly realized that as I

20:13

was asking them questions, I wanted to see them channel

20:16

something. I wanted to see them film

20:18

a video. I was hoping to watch

20:20

the behind the scenes moments that were the core

20:23

pillars of their online brand. And

20:27

so when I asked them to channel something,

20:29

and this isn't in the video, but it's referenced in the

20:31

video, they insisted on channeling

20:33

my past lives. And they actually

20:35

told me, like I was the, so we're sitting

20:37

in their room, like their office, they're like eyes

20:40

closed, they're just like thinking for a second and then Shalia

20:42

is like, okay, like I have it. Like she's

20:45

got a message from the divine in other words.

20:47

And she says that she

20:50

channeled that I'm the reincarnation of

20:52

Virginia Woolf and Edgar Allan

20:54

Poe, which I was just like, wait, what's

20:56

the actual fuck? I mean, thank

20:59

you, but also scary. Thank you, but no thank you.

21:01

Yeah, but it's like just really funny because I

21:03

think they were like, I mean, they

21:06

wanted to flatter me, right? I think that was like

21:09

a big theme of it. And then they were like, so how do you feel

21:11

about that? Like, how does that sit with you? You know, they

21:13

were trying to get information out of me. They

21:15

asked me a lot about my relationship status. I

21:18

was engaged at the time and now I'm married, but

21:20

they were, you know, constantly asking me questions about my

21:22

partner, you know, what's he like? Like,

21:25

you know, they actually told me that

21:27

he's my twin flame. I didn't ask, but they offered

21:30

that, you know, they confirmed that. And you're like, yeah,

21:33

were you really relieved? Well, I was kind

21:35

of, I guess that's a better thing to hear

21:37

than he's not your twin flame. And then they're trying to

21:39

like get at my problems or

21:42

you know, what they imagined to be trauma, like, cause

21:44

that's what they do on their videos. And I had watched those at

21:46

that point, but yeah. So in the video

21:48

that where they, in the video

21:50

that we shot together, I think Jeff

21:53

was hoping to put me on the spot and

21:55

really get to the bottom of like what

21:58

I was gonna say in my article about twin flames. That

22:00

was the theme of the video. And I basically

22:02

deflected because I mean, I'm still

22:04

writing the article, right? Like read the article. I'm

22:06

not going to tell you twin flames are bullshit

22:09

or twin flames are real. Like I'm, I

22:11

would never say that as a reporter. Like our

22:13

job is to be like, well, why are you asking me that? Like

22:16

why are you so curious, Jeff, to know

22:18

what I think about twin flames? Like you're

22:20

the expert. Tell me about twin flames. Yeah,

22:23

it was just, it was interesting their fixation

22:25

on that. So this was

22:28

published in December 2020.

22:31

I guess, you know, just kind of going back to that,

22:34

the article itself, what

22:36

ended up being the focus and angle of

22:38

the whole piece? We covered

22:41

a lot in the piece. It was, we covered

22:43

everything from the kind of business element

22:46

of it and the fact that, you

22:49

know, people are paying a lot of money for these classes that have

22:51

all this free labor. Like an entire

22:53

corporate hierarchy of people like, like,

22:56

you know, it's a, it's a volunteer organization.

22:58

It's a church, but they had like a head of HR. They had

23:00

like VPs, you know, so

23:03

we covered, you know, that whole aspect of it. We

23:06

spoke to, I spoke to current and former members.

23:08

So I interviewed people

23:10

who actually were

23:11

saying that twin flames universe really helped

23:13

them. You know, somebody who got

23:15

over her fear of flying, for instance, other

23:18

people who are like, well, yeah, I was on psychiatric

23:20

medication and I was able to go off of it. So I think it's important

23:23

to note that there's some aspect of this like inner

23:25

work that twin flames universe sort

23:28

of postulates that actually it does

23:30

work for some people, right? Like this introspection,

23:32

like there's some, some people that does work

23:34

to a degree. If that's the only

23:36

thing people were getting about it, were getting

23:39

out of it, I would have been completely fine with it. But the fact

23:41

that they just go way further than

23:43

that and they really, they really, they really ruin

23:45

lives. You know, you're in what

23:47

are what amount to therapy sessions with totally

23:49

unqualified people who are motivated to get

23:52

you further, further involved to

23:54

make more money off of you. I mean,

23:56

that's the bottom line. And I talked to too many people whose

23:58

lives were ruined to not. to not

24:00

make that clear in the article. And, you

24:03

know, once this comes out, what... I

24:06

guess I'm wondering, like, what was the reaction from

24:09

Jeff and Shalia, especially having spent time with

24:11

you, and, you know, just the rest

24:13

of the Twin Flames universe community?

24:15

Because it seems like some

24:17

were really defensive of them and other people

24:19

left. So what was the aftermath?

24:23

Yeah.

24:24

I mean, Jeff and Shalia, like,

24:26

were super pissed and, like, wrote a,

24:29

like, long blog that I think is

24:31

still online somewhere that, yeah,

24:33

you can read. I mean, it... So actually one of

24:35

my friends read it and was like, I wasn't sure that they were

24:38

cult leaders until I read this blog. So

24:40

it was just like... Perfect. It worked. The

24:43

defense of themselves, I think, is very revealing. They

24:46

told all their followers to comment bomb

24:48

the Vanity Fair,

24:51

comment section on Instagram. They published

24:53

all these testimonials online about, you

24:56

know, why Twin Flames universe is actually

24:58

great. And they kind of tried to seize this

25:00

moment, which was, I think, their

25:02

plan all along. I mean, Jeff has never

25:04

shied away from controversy and had even made videos

25:07

about, like, am I a cult leader? So, like,

25:09

I think, like, when it came out, they wanted to, like,

25:11

make it the biggest splash possible. And, like, that was,

25:13

like, by saying that, you know, they were

25:15

wronged by the article and, like, coming up with, like, a whole,

25:17

like, social media strategy responding to the

25:20

article. So that's what they did. But

25:22

I would say that that wasn't so effective

25:25

because there were a lot of people who left. And I got

25:28

people reaching out to me, like, saying, you

25:30

know, in the weeks and months after, you

25:32

know, who previously had been really upset

25:34

with the article, saying, you know, thank you for

25:36

writing this. Like, this helped me exit.

25:39

And, you know, I wasn't sure

25:41

what was going on. But also, you know, a big part of the

25:43

article was hearing stories of former members

25:45

who, you know, are

25:48

talking about their abuse. And then just seeing

25:50

it in that light, I do think helped

25:52

some people exit the organization. So I was happy about

25:55

that. Prime

26:00

Big Deal Days are coming October 10th and 11th.

26:03

With two days of big savings exclusively

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for Prime members, you'll feel like you just

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won the big game. I'm

26:10

here at Kevin's doorstep where he just executed

26:12

a textbook package pickup. Kevin, talk

26:14

us through these deals you

26:15

scored. Well, the parents aren't touted.

26:17

I knew this copy grinder deal would be a

26:19

winner. Yeah! Thank you, Kevin.

26:22

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26:23

Big deals on everything from home to

26:25

electronics. It's on Prime Big Deal Days,

26:27

October 10th and 11th.

26:38

So there's probably going to be some people

26:40

who will wonder why people

26:43

who joined Twin Flames didn't just

26:45

leave once it started to get dicey. Because

26:47

there's stories about people like there's a

26:49

lot of stuff around gender dysphoria that the

26:51

two of them were kind of promoting in a weird

26:53

way. There was a lot of stuff around like they were encouraging

26:56

people to stalk their exes. And

27:00

I'm wondering if you have thoughts on how some

27:02

people end up

27:04

so deep

27:05

in this organization that they just

27:07

look at on the internet that they completely

27:10

lose their senses of self.

27:12

Yeah, I think that's really important. Well,

27:15

first I want to note that some people do leave. Some

27:18

people are in this organization

27:20

and they do manage to exit. A lot of

27:22

people have less. But you're right that also

27:25

there's still a really

27:27

strong inner circle. And there are

27:29

many people who have been in it for years at this point.

27:32

And I think it's just really important

27:34

to understand that being

27:36

in Twin Flames universe and being in the inner circle

27:39

means having every aspect of your life

27:42

dictated by Twin Flames universe. I mean, not only

27:44

do they say that they're God, they also

27:47

are your source of community.

27:49

All of your friends end up being part of that organization.

27:52

A lot of people cut off ties

27:54

with their families who are in

27:56

this inner circle. They also

27:58

are dictating

28:01

who your partner is, right?

28:03

Like they did a arranged Twin

28:05

Flames Union with a lot of people, a lot of members

28:07

of the organization. So you're, you know, you're,

28:09

they say who you love, they say where you work,

28:12

they say what God is

28:14

and that they are connected to God,

28:17

you know, and so they control just so many aspects

28:19

of your day-to-day existence that it's just

28:21

such a high bar to exit that. Like how

28:24

are you going, and not to mention that

28:26

you've been in these pseudo therapeutic

28:29

sessions with them for years, you've

28:31

told them all of your secrets and traumas

28:33

and that when other people try to exit they use

28:36

it against them and they will like write posts

28:38

in the forum,

28:39

you know, revealing your

28:40

secrets. I mean it's

28:42

really, really difficult to leave. They do not make

28:45

it easy. They've also threatened lawsuits

28:47

with people that leave and speak out. I mean there

28:49

are so many reasons why, why

28:52

it's, why it's difficult to leave. I mean

28:55

it obviously takes an incredible

28:56

amount of bravery to

28:59

leave, you

29:00

know, a cult or an abusive situation.

29:02

So how do people generally

29:05

start to leave the community? Is it, is it similar

29:07

to being deprogrammed from a cult?

29:10

So I think people leave for

29:13

diverse reasons. There's not one

29:15

exit narrative. You know,

29:17

a few different stories that I've heard

29:19

are some, you

29:21

know, a good number of people leave. It's

29:24

funny, they just really will start to question

29:26

it, right? Like suddenly, you know, all

29:29

the things that they hadn't questioned, they'll be some

29:31

kind of logical inconsistency and then they'll just

29:33

unravel it and eventually, you know,

29:36

once they start to ask questions in the group

29:38

or they start to challenge and then they get shut down,

29:40

then that leads them to exit. And it's

29:43

funny because some of these people, you know, their families have

29:45

been trying to get them out for a while and it hasn't been

29:47

working and then it's just something within them,

29:49

you know, something within their own self

29:51

that is hard to identify that leads them to

29:54

finally question. And then

29:56

in other cases it's much clearer, you

29:58

know, Twin Flames Universe will really go. way too

30:00

far in terms of some of these arranged

30:03

harmonious unions where they tell people that

30:05

actually your twin flame is not the person we

30:07

confirmed a few months ago. It

30:10

turns out it's this other person in the group and now

30:12

you have to get married. I mean,

30:15

obviously people

30:17

are like, wait, I'm not into that person

30:19

and many people left because of that. I

30:21

mean, some people didn't, which is interesting in and of itself,

30:24

but yeah, that was an exit point for many people.

30:27

And then the other exit point for many, many

30:29

people was this gender identity

30:31

coercion. When Jeff and Julia say,

30:34

oh, actually, God told us that

30:36

you are a divine masculine trapped

30:38

in a woman's body and that in order to

30:40

be in your harmonious union, that we've arranged

30:42

with this other person in the organization and that we've channeled,

30:45

you need to take on a man's name and pronoun. And

30:47

we have video footage of this. I mean, there's

30:50

plenty of plenty of evidence and documentation

30:52

of them doing this. And if you watch the series, you'll see

30:54

some of this. That

30:57

is a lot of people's exit point. I mean, because

30:59

you cannot just tell someone that

31:01

you know their gender and that they don't. I mean, come

31:03

on, conversion therapy doesn't work. We know this.

31:06

And so, you know, well, I could apparently definitely

31:08

a don't. But you know, the proof is

31:10

that a lot of people definitely exited

31:13

upon that, upon them trying that. And

31:16

what sort of,

31:17

you know, challenges do people face when they

31:20

exit the Twin Flames universe in

31:22

that community? Is it hard for

31:24

them to readjust to normal life? Like,

31:26

what have you seen with that?

31:28

I've seen a wide variety of like what

31:30

happens when you exit. I think

31:32

some people are doing really well. Like I know

31:35

of several of the people that

31:37

we're interviewing in our in our documentary

31:39

are, you know, like they're finding

31:42

love, right? Like they thought, you know,

31:44

the exit is really hard. But, you know, some

31:46

of the people are doing really well and they're able

31:48

to talk about it today. And they, you know, they're

31:50

dating one of the one of the

31:52

couples who is actually subject to this gender

31:55

identity coercion. They got

31:57

married last year and

31:59

that was part of it. They stuck through

32:01

it even though Twin Flames Universe

32:03

basically did everything possible to try to sink

32:05

their couple. Other people are definitely still

32:07

struggling and can't even talk about it. I've had

32:10

phone interviews, preliminary background

32:12

interviews with survivors where people

32:15

are crying, people just get triggered

32:17

even hearing the name Jeff and Shalia.

32:20

People can't even hear that name

32:22

without being transported back to that

32:24

moment of when they were being abused.

32:27

So there's a wide variety of experiences.

32:30

Okay, so you have all these stories.

32:33

Wundery produced a series about

32:35

TFU

32:36

as we call it.

32:37

Yeah,

32:40

that's what they call it. There's a documentary on Amazon. I

32:42

went to school. Oh my gosh, what? It's

32:44

on TFU. It sounds like a Canadian university. It really

32:47

does sound like a

32:49

Canadian university. It

32:52

really does. There's

32:54

an Amazon documentary about it,

32:56

but the Twin Flames Universe

32:58

continues. So I'm trying

33:01

to understand how they keep growing. There's so

33:03

much information about

33:05

them available now.

33:07

So yeah, it's really astounding.

33:09

So yeah, they do still

33:11

exist and they do still have people joining.

33:14

It's kind of unclear to what degree

33:16

people are joining. Their Facebook group

33:18

has more members than it did when

33:20

I wrote the article. It currently has, I think, 41,000

33:23

members in it, which are people that you

33:26

don't know if they're giving Jeff and Shelly a money, but at the

33:28

very least, I mean, they're being influenced by

33:30

their ideology, right? It's

33:34

in this Facebook group where they talk about being

33:36

the master Christ, where they tell people, they give

33:38

people

33:38

terrible advice about

33:41

what to do if your Twin Flame blocks you,

33:43

right? It's like, probably, don't

33:45

contact them again, but nope. Anyway,

33:48

so there's definitely

33:50

people that continue to join. At

33:52

the same time, they're not putting as

33:55

much effort into

33:57

recruitment as they were, and they definitely seem

33:59

to be a lot more capable. careful about their public image

34:01

and in more of kind of hunker

34:03

down and be very careful

34:07

about what they post. They just had a baby

34:09

actually, which is a crazy thing

34:12

because they were talking about this non-existent

34:14

baby when I was reporting the article. They've been talking

34:16

about it for years. They've said it's their third

34:19

twin flame, which is really strange.

34:21

I don't really understand that ideology

34:24

because... A third twin... So a triplet

34:26

flame. Yeah, which is so weird

34:28

because the whole thing about the twin flames is that it's two

34:30

halves of the same soul. If you believe

34:32

in twin flames, it's definitely never

34:35

something that has a poly

34:37

element or a family element. It's

34:40

interesting, but they call her their third

34:43

twin flame. They have lots of plans for her.

34:45

I think that they're using that to

34:49

keep the followers who are still there

34:52

locked in. They're framing the birth of this

34:56

new twin flame as proof

34:58

of their

35:01

ability to kind of predict the future

35:03

because they've been saying for a long time that

35:05

they would have this

35:07

baby girl and they went

35:10

through IVF and it didn't work. Then

35:13

finally, this baby was born

35:15

and they called it a gift from God.

35:17

I can see how people within the organization

35:20

would take that as kind of just proof

35:22

again of their spiritual power.

35:26

Are you hoping that

35:28

Jeff and Chalea face any consequences?

35:31

Do you think

35:32

the group needs

35:33

to be

35:36

somehow shut

35:37

down in an official way? I

35:39

mean, I think that would be the best outcome. Yeah,

35:41

I think the group should be shut down. I

35:43

think it's definitely harming people. I

35:46

also think that I know just based on

35:48

all of the other... What happens

35:51

with organizations that a lot of

35:53

people think are cults, it's legal accountability

35:56

is really rare. It's

35:58

not something that happens often. It's really difficult

36:01

to litigate these issues of coercion just

36:03

because there is so much gray area. People

36:06

are, what did people consent to? What

36:10

is being kind of forced upon them? It's

36:13

very difficult to tease that out. And

36:15

also, what do you hope will happen

36:17

with the continued coverage of this?

36:20

Well, I hope that people

36:22

who are considering joining the

36:25

organization don't. And

36:28

I hope that people who are still within

36:31

it could watch

36:33

the documentary and reconsider

36:35

their place within the organization.

36:38

That's my hope. Whenever Sarah and I talk about

36:40

a story on scam influencers, we

36:42

often walk away feeling like our perspectives have

36:44

changed a little bit about something. And I'm

36:47

wondering if in reporting on Twin Flames,

36:50

if your perspective has changed on groups

36:52

like them or even the people who are seeking comfort

36:55

in those sorts of communities?

36:57

I guess the thing that maybe

37:00

this has made me much more aware

37:02

of is just the mysteries

37:05

of love are just like... We

37:08

just don't have a great framework for talking

37:10

about them or thinking about them. I feel like

37:13

institutional religion serves

37:16

that purpose and still serves that purpose for

37:18

a lot of people. But then so

37:20

many of my peers are kind

37:22

of more agnostic, but they

37:24

do have kind of spiritual practices, whether

37:27

it's yoga or people are into astrology

37:29

or any of these kind of sort of

37:34

new age practices that are really common.

37:37

And I feel like we

37:40

turn to these to kind of explain things

37:42

that we don't have good explanations for. And

37:45

I think love is just definitely one of those things. And I

37:47

feel like the really appealing thing

37:49

about Twin Flames is the

37:51

kind of just mysteriousness about

37:54

this person could be out there for you. Even

37:58

if you don't fully believe... it like couldn't

38:01

don't you want to find out if it's true like

38:03

don't you want to find that person like I really

38:05

relate to that of course like once you hear

38:07

about the possibility of twin flames

38:09

like it's hard to get it out of your head and

38:12

so I think that there's like something

38:14

really valid in that and I don't want to shut that

38:16

down but I also think people have

38:19

to be really careful of you

38:21

know guys who say that they're Christ who are asking

38:24

you for $4,000 I think that's kind of

38:29

what struck

38:29

me the most about it was like if

38:31

this actually if this was real it'd be the most

38:33

incredible thing in the world right where

38:35

it's like

38:36

I can find the person

38:38

I meant to be with the one thing you can't

38:40

control

38:40

in life having this ability

38:43

to control it you know yeah

38:44

and like love is the key to like

38:47

so many other things I'm like that's what twin flames universe

38:49

says they say is that if you fix if

38:51

you find your twin flame and that you're

38:53

pursuing your twin flame like all these other aspects

38:55

of your life from like your mental health to

38:58

your like work productivity to like everything

39:00

that's like going on will all like kind of come

39:03

into harmony and like who the fuck

39:05

doesn't want that like that sounds amazing it's

39:07

just like I don't and I think that can

39:10

even be true regardless of what do you believe in twin

39:12

flames or not of like yeah like you

39:14

fall in love and everything seems amazing and

39:17

so like of course everyone wants that

39:19

but then like I mean love

39:21

can also be really traumatic love can be abusive

39:24

like people can get hurt and I think like that's

39:26

what you need to be careful of and sort

39:28

of evaluating these spirit

39:31

new new age spiritual takes on love

39:33

Wow thank you so much I

39:36

feel like I could have talked to you for like another

39:38

hour about this just like combining

39:40

information about what it was like to be around

39:43

these people and be in this world for so long

39:45

yeah for sure no I'm happy to talk about

39:47

it anytime it was

39:50

a crazy saga Alice Heinz

39:52

is a journalist documentary filmmaker

39:55

and an Emmy-winning news correspondent desperately

39:57

seeking soulmate escaping twin flames

39:59

Universe is out on Amazon Prime

40:02

on October 6.

40:08

Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Twin

40:11

Flames ad free on Amazon Music. Download

40:13

the Amazon Music app today, or

40:16

you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus

40:18

in Apple Podcast. Before you go,

40:20

tell us about yourself by completing a short

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survey at Wondery.com slash

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survey.

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From Wondery, this is a bonus episode

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of Twin Flames. This episode is hosted

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by me, Sarah Heggy. And

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me,

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Sachi. Our producers are Denise

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Chan and Zachary Stouffer.

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Our senior producer is Ginny Bloom.

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Sound design and mixing is by Jay Rothman.

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Our senior managing producer is Lepa Pandya.

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Our coordinating producer is Heather Baloga.

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Our executive producers are George Lavender,

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Marshall Louie and Jen Surgent

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for Wondery.

41:07

How would you like to look five years younger? In

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a clinical study, people that had volume added

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with Juvederm Voluma XC in the cheeks

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perceived themselves as looking five years younger

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at six months after treatment. Look younger,

41:19

feel like you. Add volume for

41:21

lift and contour in the cheeks with Juvederm

41:23

Voluma XC. Reverse signs of aging

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by adding volume to smooth laugh lines with

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Juvederm Velour XC. For important

41:30

safety information and to find a licensed specialist,

41:32

visit Juvederm.com. That's

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J-U-V-E-D-E-R-M.com.

41:37

Not for people with severe allergic reactions, allergies

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to lidocaine or the proteins used in Juvederm.

41:42

Common side effects include injection site redness,

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swelling, pain, tenderness, firmness,

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lumps, bumps, bruising, discoloration

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or itching. There's a risk of unintentional injection

41:51

into a blood vessel, which can cause vision abnormalities,

41:54

blindness,

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stroke, temporary.