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in.com/spoken Terms and conditions apply. Welcome.

0:31

For the first ever true Crime

0:33

or Costs as Roundtable. Thank you

0:35

so much for joining us this

0:37

evening! So I'm joined by my

0:39

fellow cohosts whole from the True

0:41

Confuse Us hypo. Or. Album

0:44

or Recovery Room. And

0:46

Murder Miles Mike: Hi Mike hello

0:48

there so he can't see me.

0:50

but you know, maybe there's a

0:52

blessing. And

0:55

we got to fantastic guess V this evening

0:57

versus Ago and the the co host of

0:59

picture The scene welcome Andy. Welcome.

1:02

Hello have one. Now.

1:04

I did the welcome and the your job was

1:06

just say hello but they to get paid not

1:09

I'm and Grace House of the Red Rum for

1:11

cause hello Grace. Melee Adam lovely say

1:13

hello everyone watching and to nan.

1:16

Great. To see so let's make his thought

1:18

so in our first round Here for your

1:20

loss by an hour the saving ball first

1:23

round we can ask God to guess. Festival

1:25

does have something in the world of true

1:27

crime. There's really on their mind at the

1:29

moment. I'm Megan, a chess about it set

1:31

set off with grace over to aggress. Thanks.

1:34

Adam and yes so I I wanted

1:36

to talk a little. There are dive

1:38

in and a D pend own is

1:41

talk a little bit about the ethics

1:43

of to crime Am I think it's

1:45

an incredibly complex and multilayered subject to

1:48

think we see that issue come up

1:50

through various types of true crime content.

1:53

And I recently. I.

1:55

Guess the conversation recently and

1:57

came to my mind because

1:59

of a couple of Drama

2:01

Hydration the series like The

2:03

Jeffrey and. Jeffrey Dahmer at

2:06

drums has a Sin on the Ted Bundy

2:08

with i think it was sack of from.

2:11

I'm on a mention those two

2:13

specifically because I remember the backlash

2:15

the I saw on social media

2:17

and mainly relating to not get

2:19

in consent from the victims or

2:21

the families of the victims and

2:24

I think. With big budget

2:26

production like those of you see they

2:28

have budget, they have teams, they can

2:30

afford time, a resource to put money

2:32

into the area and and often times

2:34

they still dying and I think for

2:37

us all is true crime. Content Creators

2:39

is something that we probably have all

2:41

sorts about and I am. I've got

2:43

lots of sorts and I would love

2:45

to hear what you what everyone thinks

2:47

and if he's dealt with it in

2:49

in the Making of your Content. First

2:54

poet you think. Might. Be

2:57

the gum or has been very

3:00

controversial. Conceivably

3:02

to to be put you on

3:04

the because it's true. World

3:07

famous case. If you like. An

3:09

old. Trying.

3:13

To get for least trying to get. Consent

3:16

from victims of someone from. A

3:19

few towns. Didn't. Do It.

3:21

As as truthful moves in the

3:23

public domain as possible on c

3:25

of abuse of example from the

3:28

Uk feed me be said about

3:30

move to trying See these months

3:32

I was be recently of. Or

3:34

think it was a seven of a park

3:36

conversation. But the Yorkshire Ripper. Was been

3:38

all. Along shudder

3:41

know. You. Gonna watch it

3:43

because. If you True Crime podcast

3:45

from So Evans and Crimes you think.

3:49

I. Was caught homeless say I was

3:51

quite disappointed with it. Because.

3:54

It's supposed to be. Banging.

3:56

On about it being about the victims.

3:59

And yet. Would say. One episode

4:01

of The Law. Was about

4:03

the victims there was one victim

4:05

the mist and was won't let

4:07

him because the name long completely

4:09

and. I. Think she's of

4:12

us on forgivable because them

4:14

are still so many people

4:16

surviving relatives of. Of

4:18

these poor women and. For. Not.

4:21

To make mistakes like not old to be

4:23

deliberately. I. Think his own forgivable

4:26

so. I think it can

4:28

be. It if it. If it's. True

4:30

to the public main, it's it can

4:32

be Fabulous Pope. Ah, sensationalism.

4:35

Know. Baton

4:37

I wouldn't watch it. I'm a

4:39

lot the darn thing because. Well.

4:42

As well. As well I think any right.

4:45

Yeah. I think I think that's such

4:47

a great point out said. I wonder I

4:49

wonder how much time and effort was put

4:51

into especially that as he say i haven't

4:53

and watched that one. The as you say

4:56

about the person he was just completely messed

4:58

up hasn't let I got the name wrong

5:00

is it is that really simple thing this

5:02

eight sleep is Arnold. A lot of it

5:04

felt most. You. Know it was more of

5:06

our. It was more of our

5:08

the Fella plain old field. You know

5:10

when I think the second victim was

5:12

the one focused upon. With. The

5:14

family life because. Arguably

5:17

was like of buried celebrated

5:19

doctors. Recommend remain humble folks.

5:21

Moved to town and. You

5:24

know, because of star caliber as in the

5:26

show that he was gonna. Make. This

5:28

episode about for the. Other. One

5:31

of the rest of the. Victims, You

5:33

know what? That was. my bunk bed. With.

5:36

I was a bit like. A

5:39

Certified what are your thoughts? I I

5:41

think especially with Tv there's always a

5:43

problem. Is that A. Supposed.

5:46

In a wheel of True Crime and with

5:48

Russia about and we want to do it

5:50

justice. not just for the story, not just

5:53

for the families, but T V is that

5:55

if you think about it it's by and

5:57

statements and money. And when they

5:59

commit. Things are this: It's. They

6:01

don't her rent them and say. He

6:04

go A: you've got however many years you

6:06

want to write in research. This is literally

6:08

as they will say right? Well you you

6:11

on this budget for this year. You need

6:13

to have it delivered within. Six.

6:15

Months so that's always. The problem is is

6:17

that they're never gonna have the time to

6:20

do it when they need to unless the

6:22

unless. Have done the research way in advance

6:24

and it's already a as you say that

6:26

Yorkshire Ripper if it's based on a book

6:28

in the evidence is a leg great. She

6:31

can just turn, You could just dramatize it.

6:33

but sometimes the know I am. As Paul

6:35

said, you know there was a. A

6:37

documentary on the Camden Ripper on Channel

6:40

Five of us about three or four

6:42

years ago. Same again, they got the

6:44

name to the names of the victims

6:46

wrong. And you just go. How

6:48

can you do that? How can he

6:51

surely someone at some point look to

6:53

this and said. Is. This correct,

6:55

but they don't? They just trust the people to make

6:57

it and. The

6:59

wonder a deadline and the that's not the way

7:01

you should be making. Programming.

7:04

About. The most

7:06

harrowing moments in a person's life,

7:09

of which their families are still

7:11

there and still grieving. Even

7:13

if is nineteen seventies, the still grieving. I

7:16

just to get misty. Some people whose families died.

7:19

In the forties. And. The

7:21

upset. And. You think? That's.

7:24

Eighty. One hundred hundred years go coming up

7:26

to and the still upset and rightly so so

7:28

it has to be. Does he say ethics Have

7:31

to be right? And.

7:33

And your favorite M I Five O'clock am

7:35

I say about the ripple effects of murder,

7:38

Laughing Generations and a what are your thoughts

7:40

on this? The I agree with I have

7:42

one said if if interesting we have to

7:44

think. That these

7:46

people they make these shows. They.

7:49

Don't make them to be factual,

7:51

They make them for pure engagement

7:54

entertainment and to sell advertising as

7:56

by the that sounds so to

7:58

them. The same as

8:00

when people say common you'd fighters they

8:02

allow for margin of error and these

8:04

people do with roll it over the

8:06

curve on the given them visit and

8:08

I think that's why a it relies

8:10

on those as a people who who

8:12

truly care to make sure we put

8:14

the effort in and we do the

8:17

research we make sure. That. Even

8:19

when we do make mistakes and way I

8:21

see on on straight I'm sure I've won

8:23

here to fame I've had. A

8:25

family members of one of our topics

8:27

one of my cases contact me as

8:30

hates me How you got the vetoes

8:32

org. A few little

8:34

details and. I was mortified

8:36

on the facing their side with okay. Educate

8:39

me tell you all go wrong and on A

8:41

so we police are bought. And.

8:43

That's where he sort of rv for the

8:46

face the only way to truly make a

8:48

change. His lead to make sure that we.

8:51

Do. Wise rise. So people who listen

8:53

to us than once the same thing

8:56

from the big companies go Wow, they

8:58

don't allow these Must. Must.

9:01

Publish who don't really care one way or

9:03

the over his lungs is entertaining them to.

9:05

Carry. On that killer in a belief. I.

9:07

Agree it didn't. You know what I say? You're

9:10

right though. If. We

9:12

can't focus on getting a right and

9:14

hopefully the big companies will, but I

9:16

think I think is also have a

9:18

big problem in true Crime podcasting as

9:20

well whether it's big companies like wondering

9:22

or of little guys. Isabella I was

9:24

listening to her upon Pocus for one

9:26

to the other day and they got

9:28

so much wrong. And yet.

9:32

There's quite a few podcast kind of of olive

9:34

oil and get things wrong as one in disco

9:36

how did you know? Check that. Like it. if

9:38

it's a complicated detail, I get that. but if

9:41

it's like it. As we say of Victims Night,

9:44

How can anyone get I wrong us the i think. I

9:47

think, especially with True Crime podcasting,

9:49

nothing is too many people who.

9:52

And. I know we all know this. They come into this

9:54

because they want. Money. And fame.

9:58

For. The not into this because they. Believed.

10:01

Because they because they love true crime is

10:03

they want to get it right. And a

10:05

thing like Mike are you try to favor

10:08

vanilla Rice's i'm podcast about shirk our wasn't

10:10

phone some shoes off. I am. I haven't

10:12

heard that. what is a good. Or.

10:14

Ethnic. the matching Katya this with them I wonder

10:17

is quite interesting. Set a goal the names com

10:19

that did. They still managed to find the tons

10:21

by necessity have pets and yet said. Oh

10:23

god yeah, cause of yet he is. If

10:25

I didn't I was listening to. I used

10:27

to listen to no such thing as a

10:29

station. Yvonne praises they research, And.

10:32

It was only. Like I'd listen

10:34

to the episodes and like of the that's

10:36

Fast they know it's amazing, it's Berlin and

10:38

it was only when they started getting subjects

10:41

which I knew a lot about like unfortunately

10:43

volcanoes and coal mining so ask me why

10:45

but I know a shit law by a

10:47

back up and I realized from an interesting

10:50

see the you must use an avid don't

10:52

digital when it When I was a teenager

10:54

do my A levels of do A level

10:56

English and the was two questions in there

10:59

about at volcanoes and coal mining and a

11:01

got really excited and started writing. And

11:03

esta one hour Forty five minutes of a two

11:06

hour exam. I went. Spock.

11:08

Cisco do with a receptionist and then

11:10

I realized I was just whine about

11:12

volcanoes. As

11:14

which is why I failed my english salem.

11:18

A lot of like a great them got see

11:20

much time on these subjects that maybe the so

11:23

round off the move your thoughts on this that

11:25

we as may be true com Traces should be

11:27

thinking about and forward. Oh saw

11:29

an ad that's actually a really

11:31

good point I think because I

11:33

battle with that with every case.

11:36

I I mean I think it's

11:38

something I from point system has

11:40

been an mean encouraging actually enhances

11:42

the work that I make and

11:44

I'm I'm sure and Five renounces.

11:46

Wow and I think. The.

11:49

Thing I really settled with. At the

11:51

beginning I made a decision on and

11:53

I'm sticking to that decision. Is

11:55

ah the questions will not about

11:58

whether I would contact. Families

12:00

of victims to I wish to I

12:02

was talking about and I made the

12:04

decision quite early on. other than two

12:07

cases are covered to not contact and

12:09

the families and the reason I did

12:11

that was because I read an article

12:14

on how to pull costs or something

12:16

about someone who had contacted. A.

12:19

Family member of the victim. And

12:21

I had they had said i don't

12:23

want to talk for and actually you

12:25

just emailing me brings up and bring

12:27

that to the for friends and obviously

12:29

that to climb. Poor Costa was mortified

12:31

to have done that. But you can't

12:33

predict how people are gonna respond. you

12:35

can't predict your face. It is a

12:38

i think it's it aside invasion of

12:40

privacy to that level and I still

12:42

think consent of out on this of

12:44

large exceptions is really important especially as

12:46

with such a lot when you get

12:48

name's wrong when you is getting really

12:50

basic facts wrong as wow I'm. By

12:53

I think in my work and

12:55

an independent to climb forecast world

12:57

of I've made the decision to

12:59

not contact families and I don't

13:01

know if it's the right decision.

13:03

it's something I think about quite

13:05

law and I've I've come to

13:07

terms with and made decisions I've

13:09

made an fighting it some he

13:11

was you constantly think fountain currently

13:13

combat chase and if there is

13:15

a case for example one of

13:17

the any case are covered with

13:19

a survivor of domestic and of

13:21

abuse incident as she. Was really up

13:23

for talking to me as use really got

13:25

the other covering the case because she wanted

13:27

to raise awareness of it Sitting there are.

13:30

Examples like that that we can all take

13:32

from and probably all learn a lot from

13:35

them in his wife. useful to talk to

13:37

people have been treaty thing and especially if

13:39

we haven't the yeah I think it's it's

13:41

something to continuously think that we can. I

13:43

send movie. I saw of

13:46

it doesn't win Every so we we talk

13:48

about this for like five hours cause metics

13:50

so much to talk about fit in. Instead

13:52

we're going to move on. I'm going to

13:54

go to Envied again without know and is

13:56

being to Sables said and the over here.

13:59

Sir. Actually I'm quite got us

14:01

for say grace because mine ties in

14:03

nicely with yours. I want to talk

14:06

about on the report crimes or report

14:08

in the sense of the victim under

14:10

reporting them but also owned report from

14:12

the likes of Olds or. Am

14:15

media outlets not reporting them So I will

14:17

give you a little example but and go

14:19

into my should be so for example if

14:22

it isn't about like for their crimes. Think

14:25

about say the Enron scandal

14:27

or Bernie my made off.

14:29

Oh. You hear about is. How

14:32

the mighty have fallen! How.

14:34

If he was powerful and now they're

14:36

I've encountered that we're still so think.

14:40

Tens of thousands, sometimes millions in these

14:42

cases of people's lives were ruined. but you

14:44

never hear a single thing about these and

14:47

and resemblance. To bring this up and I'm

14:49

guess I'm a christian and made only

14:51

Adam his. Eye on the

14:53

base crimes a really important to me.

14:56

And in the Uk and a roundabout mistress

14:58

in the Uk it's it's just not report

15:00

on or when a report on he support

15:02

on wrongly as a reason for the crimes

15:04

and I'm say on a base I know

15:07

people don't my that way but I always

15:09

described to even them on in these crimes

15:11

to support this I'm glad I and. My.

15:14

Question is. Is.

15:16

Essential to reform. Nice. Because.

15:20

You don't true crime story so

15:22

it it's not like a to

15:24

the audience is about education in

15:26

for mean and sometimes I use

15:28

an advocate for change so how

15:30

we have as podcast is a

15:33

unique ability to shape probably conversation.

15:35

A. Tip eighth in situations exactly like

15:37

a fund to bring to the forefront

15:39

issues that often out over knows for

15:42

how do we do this while keeping

15:44

engage and make people want to listen.

15:49

My. Thing county that I'm him

15:51

inside. About Some things women reported

15:53

like not. I think it would

15:56

depend on how quickly detected if

15:58

it's a domestic Saturday. I'm.

16:00

Straight away, someone's arrested for it.

16:03

It will make headlines in the paper the

16:05

next day. And then probably

16:07

not until the trial. Manuals.

16:10

A year later, On. It's

16:12

easy for gone it's like

16:14

to yesterday's know tomorrow's fish

16:16

and chip rapper. You know

16:18

is it is it's own internet like book

16:21

from the fuck Have you ever given example

16:23

False I say offer. Found a base trying

16:25

to last us. And died

16:27

off a memory. oblivious. Every

16:30

over day. Usually a

16:33

a girl or female at

16:35

a woman dies in the

16:37

Uk. Wanna buy all of

16:39

a strivers? Yeah if that.

16:42

The amount of people die every year, yet how often

16:44

you hear about it? Yeah. That's

16:47

not that's my on the things will

16:50

make more headlines. The Brothers. I mean

16:52

there's a sort of there's a. There's.

16:55

A familiar sight are the moments.

16:57

is it seems like in Norfolk

16:59

I believe it is it. It.

17:02

Seems a little news is that

17:04

with my family, two children and

17:06

on woman fungi to stop games.

17:09

And has it sounds like a familiar sight

17:11

on it. Happens much more often than. You'd.

17:14

Ever really wanna believe?

17:16

book? It's it's only

17:18

the odd things that make headlines

17:21

and. I say or do

17:23

things. As awful as a sometimes

17:25

I think it depends on the vic. I.

17:28

Do think it depends on the victims is a

17:30

reason why. Things.

17:32

Like model in the county more. Famous

17:34

than all the all the children

17:36

go missing. Since. Then.

17:39

He now. It's

17:46

the as interesting as much as. It.

17:49

Is interesting. I was. Working.

17:51

On. A.

17:54

Case where a school shooting today. The when

17:56

you think of school shootings, you instantly think

17:58

of Dunblane. I'm

18:01

not too far away. some dorm as wells.

18:04

And how many people remember Dormers Wells

18:07

school shooting? They're. Probably

18:09

most people have never heard of. Any fact, most local

18:11

people have never heard of it, but he was eight

18:13

years prior. And I

18:15

I think that's another thing. Even

18:18

the Dunblane was tragic and. You

18:20

know we change that gun laws based on

18:23

that. Which. Was right. Like.

18:25

Dorms Wells to noted: some guys

18:28

when into school with assault weapons

18:30

since died unloading. That. Was

18:32

a years earlier and do when we

18:34

talking about why we focus on some

18:36

victims in the others. Interesting. I

18:38

was talking to someone today and they said just have

18:40

interest to. Were the victims in

18:42

the school of a certain demographic mode

18:45

yet was a nation school? And.

18:47

The when. Or. There. There. It is. Why

18:50

don't you? Why? Why do we focus on. Some.

18:53

People in the others while some I had

18:55

a thing is that phrases need that the

18:57

the less dead. Which

18:59

a continent who was the American criminologist. He

19:01

talked about it, but he said. If

19:04

you have eat at a young. Attractive

19:06

young girl from a respectable family

19:08

Like you said, with Madeline Mccann

19:11

and. We're more likely to focus on

19:13

that, whereas if it's a. A

19:15

young. Unattractive. hate that word

19:17

black boy from a poor family? Will they

19:20

really get the coverage that they need in

19:22

order to solve the case and to get

19:24

the attention that they need to help them.

19:27

I think it's it's it's a bad

19:30

thing that the press do and it's

19:32

something that. I think we

19:34

we need to clamp down on ourselves as an

19:36

audience and same. Why

19:38

you telling us about one story, not the other? Where

19:41

he is that? My pilot for my Instagram

19:43

about a year ago with To Escape I

19:46

looked at the i was posted pictures of

19:48

victims cove the story. And

19:50

it was a very whites in the ground I

19:52

was looking at. So you're right it is on

19:54

us is why this mess Christ what are your

19:56

thoughts on this? Yeah I. Tightening gray I

19:59

think. and. I think in

20:01

this incense and are many instances I think

20:03

you've got we've got ask ourselves what the

20:05

level of change we want to create so

20:07

unlike how do we do that as he

20:10

say adam if you look on your Instagram

20:12

of the pictures of their cases you're covering

20:14

and you see a an incredibly and. Like.

20:17

One demographic, whatever is being in

20:19

your instance white. I. Don't

20:21

know men, women and the of

20:23

he saw the ass. I think

20:25

we have to think that how

20:27

we change satisfy ourselves but also

20:29

how we in intend to talk

20:32

about change which andy you pull

20:34

up. I think it's winning pointer.

20:36

To. Start these discussions like having this

20:38

discussion discussion my hours with a

20:40

youthful but also. Having

20:42

to think about in the episodes or

20:45

if if we cover a case that

20:47

is an a domestic abuse case of

20:49

a young asian woman other charities that

20:51

specifically support that that type of person

20:54

that demographic that people we've had these

20:56

things happen to them to my face

20:58

different barriers or challenges in their lives

21:00

in Kansas seeking help or in terms

21:02

of it than to the coming under

21:05

reported an undue we can we talk

21:07

to our audiences about that and I'm

21:09

sure we might phones to fight is

21:11

later but for. Example: Paul Coffin.

21:13

It's quite hard to do that

21:15

because there's less is a T

21:17

when I saw of Form City.much

21:20

easier on Eugene. For example on

21:22

tic toc on Instagram on a

21:24

says things are the odds the

21:26

Us any noticed his wow. Dependent

21:29

on what kind of channel on I'm

21:31

on, the more discussion there is an

21:33

and then there's options for I don't

21:36

know, like even linking a charity in

21:38

the description box below and. Push.

21:40

Your audience was that they can have a read

21:42

on. it is gonna. Potentially.

21:45

Give you a level of change that you wouldn't have

21:47

a seat Indiana. Indiana.

21:50

We get me wrong, I'm a final source.

21:52

What you posted today. Certified.

21:55

You has one earned those. Yeah, I. Agree

21:57

completely with your of in a perceptive.

22:00

Space we the charity based around on

22:02

the base the. Abusing kill him

22:04

than the only do. It was a good to

22:06

give him exposure. I see when you switch from

22:08

work. While. You spoke about.

22:11

About the Fx, they were able to give

22:13

me information I couldn't find myself and specifics

22:15

I couldn't find myself. so he was. It

22:17

was a win win situation. They got a

22:19

exposure and I could be more accurate. So

22:21

yeah, think. I think he shifts.

22:24

At how do we do this? I think we just need

22:26

to. Maybe. Sometimes look at

22:28

a set we might not necessarily.

22:31

Automatically. Want to go towards and then

22:33

see what we can do to. To

22:36

promote the the backstory rather than

22:38

just talk about the one individual

22:40

case. I could

22:42

find a thank you and I said

22:44

five en masse. Watching the thing with

22:46

evening this one store in the Uk

22:48

has been dominating our minds has meant.

22:52

That is not about see and was his. I'm

22:54

the man to say left backs and his family

22:56

Not that one. it's the other one. Post.

22:59

Office have a might give should be able. What

23:01

was what the hell's going on at the post

23:03

office. I'm in. oh

23:05

god it's It's interesting cause I listened

23:07

to the Private Eye podcast and a

23:09

ton of private I asked i can

23:11

do to work with a kind of

23:14

the second group is in banging on

23:16

about this absolutely ages and. It's

23:19

It's fascinating that it has taken. A

23:21

Tv drama in order to make those in

23:23

charge of let's be honest about this. Yes

23:25

you got the post office but they are

23:28

owned by the government so this is government

23:30

run so it and it's then put under

23:32

the laws in place. It's amazing that it's

23:34

it's got to this point where we have

23:36

to wait for I T V to make

23:38

a not particularly great drama the okay for

23:40

us to go we need to sort this

23:42

out and certainly thing to work in. His.

23:46

Do. You guys feel the same to fill that. This is. Too

23:49

late. One not too late that he should have

23:51

been done twenty years ago. Yeah,

23:55

yeah, yeah and I do. I'm surprised

23:57

the dramas taken so long to me.

24:00

You. Don't actually would have been a couple

24:03

years before. But. I

24:05

gotta I gotta say personally. It

24:07

makes me never wanna use the

24:09

post office again. It's an absolute

24:11

disgrace and. I. Was hung.

24:14

Prosecution is. It. Got not

24:16

what it would likely. He. Can but

24:18

hope I target will. Oh. That's

24:21

how it should be. Yeah. Absolutely

24:23

disgraceful to be the rich painful protect in

24:25

a rich people when it. Did

24:28

it or anything. I've read my blog. I've

24:30

ever a blog about the executive bonuses for

24:32

the post office bought it is safe. Twenty

24:35

five percent of it was based on haven't

24:37

scratched my the inquiry and they set with

24:39

Iran propriety but they made it clear that

24:41

a big and permissions get that part pay

24:44

that off the boat as and it was

24:46

wellness else information that they'd They said he

24:48

didn't die that. They died. And

24:51

the take the money. and so what happens when they're paid this

24:53

money? They. Just said i'm sorry it

24:55

was a mistake we didn't mean And the. And

24:58

yet the poor taste miss says and post

25:00

mouth as I mean grace let him get

25:03

a chance to Day nine. Or I

25:05

think it's at just sit your back

25:07

on a plane and I think might

25:09

he said about it a eight took

25:12

a t v say to details and

25:14

i i I'm not sure why cause

25:16

such a nice and because it has

25:18

been known about for years and I'm

25:21

not been that input costs and things

25:23

done on this this for now and

25:25

but i think the least that cds

25:28

or had especially tv show that it's

25:30

and traumatizing a real life staying there

25:32

something about that reach size really really.

25:34

Interesting and has such sky and I'm

25:37

not sure what it is, but I

25:39

find that quite fascinating and and also

25:41

intensive. The. Prosecution as reading

25:43

about today and I read that

25:45

that have to have never been

25:47

any prosecutions of the Post office

25:49

or Cj eighth or any members

25:51

of this off and but since

25:54

the tv shows to physically be

25:56

team investigating that now says that

25:58

the post office is on. The

26:00

Criminal Investigation over I like Potential

26:02

For Defense says I'm so so

26:04

itself might be happening, but he

26:07

knows if it will actually amount

26:09

to anything. Fifty quid

26:11

says oh find a scapegoat the then the

26:13

politicians who were doing the deals around this

26:15

will go off, they'll leave and they'll get

26:17

a better job in a in waves of

26:19

the new post office is gonna be which

26:21

they always do. A lot of the politics

26:23

of smokers miss the days of the league

26:26

with was the rich see that from the

26:28

others say that as if they've been doing

26:30

the right thing and in his gabi about

26:32

seat on espen he destroyed that we said

26:34

what the hell is one thing for last

26:36

number of years and the your and on

26:38

and what's your take on it was with.

26:40

The Media.over there about that. At

26:43

what I see for these you say that

26:45

gif or system in a call yesterday wife

26:47

ignore British though he says with it is

26:49

here about what happened with the Post office

26:51

in the Uk so as you've tried to

26:53

with people in their workplace or it's a

26:55

nice over here and I was at yeah

26:57

I heard about years ago both I can

26:59

forgotten about A and of his we don't

27:01

get a t the with Saudi so we

27:04

are watchable. The. Actually schauble, I was.

27:07

I. Agree I see well personally will happen

27:09

is they'll take years for is an increase

27:11

of place. And then. People.

27:14

Be gone the be retired with a bit

27:16

that they will. Seek Lima assume

27:18

was people forgotten about it. People won't

27:21

have remember a tv drama film a

27:23

year or two ago and it would

27:25

be less new for even if something

27:27

does happen. It.

27:29

Won't have an impact and I don't think you might not

27:31

much of a change because they they know how to eat

27:33

the think I was so. The. Best

27:36

way to stop something be news is to

27:38

make people forget about. isn't that? Why am

27:40

I know? it is shocking what happens. I.

27:43

Also think if this is this wouldn't

27:45

have been the post office which is

27:47

government run is this was still the

27:49

post office which was the public company.

27:52

While the government will be taken up

27:54

a massive forces there would be inquiries

27:56

galore. People would be sacked. it will.

27:58

We will be going. Reeling from

28:00

the ramifications. but I think because they

28:02

stallone it, it's off covering and that's

28:04

all it's gonna be. A. Vote

28:09

them out. If

28:12

a similar six cents a for was

28:14

up for at least for have died

28:16

by suicide now they were the it

28:19

can't be made by five hundred. Number.

28:23

It's always gonna be too little too late in

28:25

London. And

28:27

a shopping at I suppose Cancer

28:29

Poland his his eyes up with

28:32

a question here from and lee

28:34

Hans I said that may cathy

28:36

notice and they have all. Of.

28:39

Us gets her escape to and the

28:41

festival. How to deal with the difference

28:43

between Msm said mainstream media facts and

28:45

the actual facts which you think that

28:48

it. Did. Our guide you to Amisom

28:50

And because I was I read that question of

28:52

thinking a hobby he doesn't come to me I

28:54

don't mean for and it has. Bought.

28:56

The at how we do with it is. You.

28:59

Have to a Suzhou about research If

29:01

used to go and believe the first

29:03

thing that you need for the facing

29:06

that you google. The. You more than

29:08

that, you can be wrong or you're probably going

29:10

to be making an eye Tv drama puts I'm.

29:13

Footnotes: Hobart Research and One foundation

29:15

More you look into something. The

29:18

more for two dogs me he can look

29:20

at that how he can tell the difference

29:22

is seen. This is had success facing life

29:24

and this is nonsense and this is the

29:26

actual truth Who fights So if Obama not.

29:28

Taken. As gospel the first thing that you see.

29:33

A mate mike your feet up with

29:36

whenever you're miss their official documents you'd

29:38

agree with as I can document with

29:40

a. Good,

29:44

didn't you know? what? am I? I

29:47

I totally agree with the like. You read

29:49

something in the press, eight you read it

29:51

and one newspaper the new, read it the

29:53

next to the navy. didn't the next the

29:55

realize the quotes are entirely different. All that

29:57

been reshaped. And what I what I

29:59

do quite of. In in. In.

30:01

My podcast especially with on the

30:03

last case I did with a

30:06

give the audience or the press

30:08

said they're I'd tell them what

30:10

each individual witness said. Because

30:13

even if you get statements from

30:15

businesses who actually saw the scene.

30:18

In. Even that can be entirely different as

30:20

well. So eat are often even of people

30:22

might be telling the truth. Fact if is

30:24

now which is I think he is our

30:27

job and and Andy rightfully says china you've

30:29

got a work the wheat from the chaff

30:31

but also you've got a workout if you've

30:33

gotten official source how much of that is

30:36

accurate As one untruthful says it's it's a

30:38

hard game and you've just gotta. Do.

30:40

It right. And point

30:42

You're going to live with that of

30:45

your off and seven nine size. What's

30:47

your approach to this? Who? Ice

30:50

cream for things with my command you

30:52

to said movies about research. Council.

30:55

Races as much you can get from of

30:57

and then. He needs

30:59

to be sorted thought the week from

31:01

the chaff on the basically might itself.

31:04

Book. Is good faith with appointment

31:06

might be. Different opinions on

31:09

from the number. One are

31:11

building person whose address in the

31:13

episode. So. If

31:15

I don't know which one is right for me, know. This

31:18

is appointment begin with you because awesome

31:20

salsa lessons. So.

31:23

You can still use the information. It's.

31:26

Up to the listen the then. To. Go

31:28

with whatever new book it's recently

31:31

to to keep them. There's no

31:33

excuse for poor research, really. Special

31:38

Gray said in a stingray when

31:40

you're researching your stories to use

31:42

of mainstream media, And

31:44

yeah I would say I use a

31:46

not i'm just and to add on

31:48

at with poor laughing. A.

31:51

Yeah I often a dresser and that in the

31:53

at the sight of says a couple of pieces

31:55

and it's a nice and and och Hans solidify

31:57

our club right. One of them I'll just I'll

31:59

just. and let the audience make up

32:01

their minds. And I think also it's important that

32:04

we, I think Andy was speaking about this earlier,

32:06

but if you make a mistake, just let the

32:08

audience know on the next episode or whenever. I

32:10

think I always love that when I hear podcasts

32:14

say that I always feel like I can really

32:16

trust the information they're giving because even if someone

32:19

has made a mistake, we all do. At least

32:21

I know that it will be rectified at some

32:23

point or they're open and humble enough to talk

32:26

about it. And that's the only way that,

32:29

I think that's the only way you can, because there will

32:31

be discrepancies online, especially if you're using

32:33

lots of different sources. And as we've

32:35

spoken about it, there's lots of different

32:38

versions of the events. Yeah.

32:41

That makes a lot of sense. Over

32:43

to you then Paul. What do you

32:45

want to bring to us this evening?

32:47

Okay, so I want to bring, it's

32:49

a bit of a question really about

32:51

should something happen. And I'm referring to

32:53

the horrendous story recently of this poor

32:55

little child starving to death. It

32:58

is dead dad. You must have heard about this

33:00

story from Norfolk. It's a

33:02

two-year-old boy. He's last seen

33:04

on the 27th, the 26th of

33:06

December when

33:10

the neighbor waves from, the neighbor texts

33:12

the dad the next day, he

33:14

texts back. They don't hear

33:16

the social worker, sorry, arranges

33:19

a meeting for the second of January.

33:21

Now this kid, I should say, and I'm not

33:23

trying to generalize here, but

33:26

it comes from a problem family,

33:28

shall we say. There's things like

33:31

alcoholism and kids going into

33:33

care. And so he's under care of

33:35

children's services, right? Now

33:37

the social worker turns up on a second

33:40

in January and there's no answer. So they

33:42

call the police to effect an arrest and

33:44

it doesn't happen. Three days later,

33:46

the social worker goes back. Again,

33:49

there's no answer. Again calls

33:51

the police. They don't

33:53

effect, they don't

33:55

enter the property. It takes to

33:57

the 9th of January for the

34:00

social workers will be let in by a

34:02

landlord and they find these two dead. Now,

34:05

the dad has supposedly been dead for about

34:07

11 days and you don't know

34:09

how long this poor little child has been

34:11

there. But the children's services

34:14

or quality head says

34:16

that social workers don't have

34:19

the lawful right

34:21

to force entry to a property. That's

34:23

what they call the police for. Now,

34:26

this hasn't happened twice when the

34:28

kid was too at risk. So,

34:31

my question should be is why

34:33

have police not affected entry and

34:36

they've referred themselves to the IOPC

34:38

about this? Why have they

34:41

not affected entry and should

34:43

social workers in such a situation

34:46

have the power to affect

34:48

entry to a property like that? Because

34:50

with proper identification and justification,

34:53

what's the problem? What court

34:56

would prosecute someone for that? I

34:58

mean, the list of children who slip

35:00

through the neck due to putbacks and things

35:03

like this is horrendous. So,

35:05

that's my question really. Should

35:09

social services have that power of

35:11

the police and it might just

35:13

save a life like Little Bronson?

35:16

What do you think, Grace? Yeah,

35:19

I mean, it's really, I think

35:21

it's such a tricky subject

35:23

because it opens the door to many,

35:25

many issues that would come along with

35:28

that. However, I do think with social

35:30

services in particular, we

35:32

trust social services to look after

35:34

children and people who are vulnerable

35:36

and in need of support. And

35:38

so, if we're not giving them

35:40

the tools or the ability to

35:42

go in and save a child's

35:44

life in that scenario, then where

35:46

does it stop? Where do you

35:48

take away that ability

35:52

to support the child Or to save the

35:54

child's life? And I think it's that I

35:56

don't know what I would answer that because

35:58

I. I don't

36:00

think it he proclaimed caught bush Danny's i

36:02

need to change of like this I'm sure

36:04

this is hop and life before me. Probably

36:07

just this is in the news. Now that's why

36:09

we talking about. I'm sure it happens an awful

36:11

lot more than we. And. We heroes

36:13

on. Yeah, it's definitely something them we need

36:15

to keep talking about by to have an

36:18

aunt so I'm not sure. Of.

36:22

Alum and even as I can

36:24

circulate or the other and I'm

36:26

services I don't know this case

36:28

erm sons tragic happen unfortunately family's

36:30

house we hear the saving about.

36:33

Different. Cases have to. M S is

36:35

a question. No, I don't think the

36:37

social services should have the right to

36:40

for century. However, I

36:42

do believe they should have the right

36:44

to. Force. The police as

36:46

you listen. I found in the situation that

36:48

the police have tried to catch drivers category

36:51

that wrong and it just didn't. He.

36:53

Didn't become a priority for hims own social

36:55

services to the from solar power I believe

36:57

to say to the police hey look this

36:59

person is one a bowl or this person.

37:02

Is in danger. You have to go now

37:04

and day with this. For. Adolphe

37:06

they have because if you given writer

37:08

for fancy themselves the opening them to

37:10

them been may be injured or hurt

37:12

or or situation by law but if

37:15

you give them the power to for

37:17

is no good the please refer to

37:19

himself. After. Was how many times

37:21

you see that the damage is done. People have

37:23

died by that book. If they can Toronto police

37:25

and say. This. Is cathy be

37:28

a or wherever you go and do it is

37:30

no. Then. They should have that

37:32

power, I believe. I agree there

37:34

and might put your thoughts. A.

37:37

One word for you. X.

37:40

And that's why all of this is based in

37:42

time. To the subject is that he was. A

37:45

hyphenated i know it's will play business.

37:47

Let me let me googlettes. Oh man

37:49

I ask for a Scottish while. Others,

37:53

the problem is it's all down to

37:55

money, isn't that with you to molest

37:57

social workers of which we don't have

37:59

enough, oh, you? The police of which we

38:01

don't have enough at the end of the

38:03

day that the have to prioritize things and

38:05

as we all know. They.

38:07

Can all do a great job or sometimes

38:09

people can do not have a good job

38:12

but to nerf at things slip through the

38:14

net and unfortunately it's always these tragic case

38:16

is is that it's It's like how many.

38:19

How many young kids? the kind of sitting

38:21

in horrible situations right at this very moment

38:24

with parents who want dead were probably some

38:26

town drugs and have no idea what the

38:28

doing and yet nothing can really be done

38:30

because the haven't got the money in the

38:33

time in order to put the proteins to

38:35

the cases that they need and things to

38:37

slip through and I I'm guessing a same

38:39

Zandi I I I. I haven't heard much

38:42

about this case but. I

38:44

think this is just can be that the money

38:46

is no money cutbacks like a stuff like a

38:49

training. We need to invest more

38:51

than me, but is that gonna happen now?

38:55

Sadly familiar with that pull any conclusions

38:57

of is part of the set. Number.

39:00

On on I think humble good comments

39:03

look nice on the younger might have

39:05

made on the roof blew up some

39:07

fabulous comments in. Songs

39:13

often. I. Completely agree with

39:16

them and not not are you know.

39:19

Why I prefer to eat rice

39:21

bowl. It seems like something should

39:23

be done because this is an

39:25

old man. This case on. As

39:28

you say, how many would we not know about?

39:30

The yeah. This

39:33

is. Delusional. easy fix?

39:35

I don't think. Really? Isn't.

39:39

The. Humor a great and yet we keep

39:41

reading this stuff. I never come here

39:43

as it destroys it as high as best

39:45

and said in the comments he made to

39:47

cry that me cry as as had. I'm.

39:51

Mike. What? Are you going to

39:53

bring foster fire? Know

39:56

I was can drink the taste

39:58

of Ah True Crime podcast. The

40:00

Ethics. It's

40:03

It's interesting the we're all kind of on

40:05

the same. Been here in this is kind

40:07

of a key thing though. Is Kentucky to

40:09

discuss older? Back to that, I'm. He's

40:12

just a question I want to ask. You will. With.

40:14

True crime. Is there too much

40:17

of a focus on the killer

40:19

the not the victim. Why?

40:24

Is interesting is that if you go

40:26

into if you watch any documentary and

40:28

it'll always as he say like in

40:31

Jeffrey Dahmer ted Bundy didn't Dennis Nilsson

40:33

be don't get you rarely get documentaries

40:35

about victims. If you go into a

40:38

Waterstones he look at bookshop you will

40:40

see hundreds of books on Jack the

40:42

Ripper old dinner will this crap cases

40:45

of very little on the victims and

40:47

why. Why do we not? her?

40:50

Should wait a while you advocate Zac

40:52

Efron planes had been base. Outrageous poverty

40:54

thought us. Yeah. It's.

40:58

The. Victims booms, arming, Everybody

41:01

will know who Richard Ramirez

41:03

is For example, months against

41:06

memory problems on marriage proposals

41:08

more. But. One of

41:10

the victims from doing because

41:13

they become secondary really

41:15

and I do faith

41:17

this. Celebrities:

41:19

And. Killers. And I'm

41:21

from. I think I find the obscene

41:23

or find it bizarre, bordering on the

41:25

mentally ill, Bullet of

41:27

seem to the.and. I.

41:30

Doesn't a seem to the dharma

41:33

seems that we mentioned before. You

41:35

know me, Nuts sensation lines in

41:37

him. At

41:41

all. I think it's easier

41:43

because. They nicely boxed off.

41:45

You know he can learn everything

41:47

about not person because someone will

41:49

still be there. Life from birth

41:52

to nothing. So cliff when he's

41:54

gone way. That. Nuts

41:56

and you can quantify everything. Book. Is.

41:58

victims you know No

42:01

one's going to talk to their childhood friends or find

42:04

out their hobbies, what pets they

42:06

like to eat on. And it should be

42:08

important like that because without these people,

42:12

the wrong focus of fame doesn't

42:14

get that because these

42:17

people make it. And

42:19

I think it's quite tragic. It's certainly

42:22

not something I try and do. I try to bring victims.

42:26

I don't even like the word victim. I

42:30

try and bring that person to life because it's

42:32

about them. Be compassionate. You

42:35

know, yeah. Now,

42:37

I know that in your podcast and Grace, I hear

42:39

it in yours as well. You always bring the victims

42:41

to life, don't you? Yeah, I mean,

42:43

to be honest, that's why I started the

42:45

podcast. During lockdown, I

42:47

was listening to a lot of true crime

42:49

podcasts and found that a lot of the

42:51

content I was listening to was very perpetrator

42:53

focused. And I was really interested in the

42:56

victims. Actually, that's

42:58

really interesting that you talk, Paul, about

43:00

not using the word victim because you're

43:02

so right. These are fully rounded people

43:04

and I was really interested in their

43:07

lives. So yeah, that's why I started

43:09

Red Run. What I will say about

43:11

that is we were talking

43:13

earlier about mainstream media. There's a lot

43:16

of information on the perpetrators, not so

43:18

much information on the

43:20

victims usually. And I find, I

43:23

don't know if everyone else finds this as

43:25

well, but when researching, usually

43:28

I find the most information on the

43:30

people, on the victims, when there has

43:32

been a book written specifically about the

43:35

case, when it is just using mainstream

43:37

media or anything

43:39

out there that is very easily

43:41

accessible, it tends to be perpetrator

43:43

focused. So it doesn't surprise me,

43:45

having worked in this field for

43:48

three or four years, it doesn't

43:50

surprise me that most of the

43:52

content out there is perpetrator focused

43:54

because it's easy to access that

43:56

material. You really have to dig for the

43:58

other stuff. It takes a lot longer. It's a lot

44:00

more effort. Oftentimes costs more

44:02

money to do and put more resource into.

44:05

So it doesn't surprise me, but it's a really tragic thing,

44:08

I think, that cases

44:11

aren't more focused on the victims. I

44:13

agree with you. Whenever I see, I saw

44:16

actually on Friday, I posted something on my

44:19

Instagram, a quote from Jeffrey

44:21

Damon. I felt really bad about it. But

44:23

when I said to Jeffrey Damon online, there

44:25

was so much. And to your points, really,

44:28

there's nothing, I couldn't tell you one of

44:30

his victims names. There's loads about him. What

44:33

about you, Andy? What are your thoughts?

44:35

Yeah, I agree with what everyone said.

44:38

Also, Bob made a very good

44:40

point in the comments. People

44:42

have always been attracted to the usual, to

44:44

the macarbs, to something which is

44:47

not normal for them. So people,

44:50

unfortunately, I think

44:52

the reason why there's so much

44:54

purpose right on the killers is because

44:56

people want to hear about the people

44:59

who could be willing, they do such

45:01

things. And they want

45:03

the details, and they want the gory details.

45:05

So it's not like, well, you used to

45:07

get hundreds of thousands of people served executions

45:10

in, used to be whole

45:12

books written about the killers in the past. And sometimes

45:15

the victims, you'd be lucky if you

45:17

got the name. I'm talking decades ago

45:19

here. So I think it's, unfortunately,

45:23

natural instinct of

45:25

humans to want to lean

45:28

towards the horrible, nasty stuff, because it's

45:30

not what they would do themselves. I'm

45:34

not saying that's right. And it's good that we

45:36

have people

45:38

here and over people creating

45:41

content who are willing to

45:44

speak about the victims or speak

45:46

about the people and speak about their

45:48

lives and who they were. So

45:51

yeah. And Bethan's raised

45:54

an interesting point. She

45:56

asked in the questions, do you think it's also

45:58

little that the murderer's life becomes public knowledge,

46:00

but the victims family wants to move away,

46:02

move on. What do you think, Mike?

46:06

Yeah, it's a complicated one, isn't

46:08

it? Because it's the most tragic moment in their lives.

46:12

And when they've got resolution,

46:14

i.e. going to court, they

46:16

pretty much want it to be over, don't they? They

46:18

don't want to be over. I think it was Grace

46:20

you said that about them reliving

46:22

it every time someone contacts them, they relive it

46:25

and they do, they relive the trauma. So I

46:27

totally agree. Any

46:32

other thoughts on this topic before we move on? I

46:35

think the

46:38

problem with this is that we still live

46:40

in an era where victims, like

46:42

you're saying it's hard to get information about them,

46:44

but if you look in most of the press,

46:47

quite often in TV shows and

46:49

podcasts and things like that, when you

46:51

look at a victim, all you hear

46:54

is name, age, collection of injuries, because

46:56

that's all they are. Especially for

46:58

the people who want to create entertainment

47:00

and want it to be exciting. And

47:02

it's entirely wrong. Quite often, even

47:04

if you look at someone like Jeffrey Dahmer or

47:07

Ted Bundy, the only reason we

47:09

know about them is because it's a step in

47:11

stone to find out who he is and what

47:13

he's about. It's all about the psychology of the

47:15

killer. And I think we need

47:17

to break away from that. We need to

47:19

stop thinking, wow, killers are intelligent and fascinating

47:21

and witty and oh, look how they outwitted

47:24

the police. No, they didn't. It's

47:26

entirely wrong and we need to entirely break away

47:29

from that. And I

47:31

know that's a controversial thing to say because

47:34

people who like true crime want to know about

47:36

killers, but we need to not. And

47:39

this is something that I discussed. I did an interview with a

47:41

shirt from British Mailers the other day and I talked about it

47:43

a lot. That fine line, what is

47:46

true crime? Is it

47:48

entertainment? I kind of think

47:50

it is to an extent, but it's also telling a

47:52

story. What do you think?

47:54

Where does the line fall down here?

48:01

I think it falls

48:04

more to the entertainment category

48:07

if you advertise yourself

48:09

as a crime comedy podcast

48:12

because that just, to

48:15

me, they don't work together.

48:18

It should be one or the other. It's

48:21

nothing funny about it at

48:23

all. So people

48:25

who do a show like that, I

48:27

would say go out and do an entertainment

48:30

show. Don't

48:32

try and be factual. Yeah,

48:36

it doesn't blur to me, I think. I

48:39

do see what you're saying because people

48:41

will listen to you to go to bed. They'll

48:43

be entertained by listening to you

48:45

in the gym or whatever. So

48:48

there's entertainment in that respect, but

48:51

it's not an entertaining

48:53

subject. So you're

48:57

bringing people stories.

49:00

It's not being heard whether someone is

49:02

entertained or not. Some of

49:04

those stories aren't there. What

49:06

about you, Grace? Is your show entertainment? I

49:11

think it probably comes down to

49:13

the people that are listening to

49:15

it. I think it's

49:19

really complex. I think I personally,

49:21

as a woman, most

49:24

of my audience are women, and I

49:26

know there's a massive focus

49:28

on why are women so interested

49:30

in true crime. I

49:33

think part of it is the fascination

49:35

with it for sure. But

49:38

also, I think this was a subconscious

49:40

thing for me at the start, and it probably

49:42

still is to a point. But I'm like, how

49:44

can I protect myself? Because

49:46

I'm in danger. Every single day I go

49:48

out as a woman, I am in danger.

49:51

And obviously, making a true crime podcast, I think

49:54

literally I'm going to die every single day. It's

49:56

just on my mind all the time. It doesn't necessarily mean

49:59

that will happen. But I

50:01

think because I surround myself with

50:03

that information, I feel slightly more

50:05

protected, which I don't think is

50:07

actually necessarily true. So

50:09

I think that's one of the reasons I

50:12

listen, and I think a lot of my

50:14

listeners do. But also I think, yes, it

50:16

is entertaining in the sense

50:18

that I'm quite fascinated to hear

50:20

the details of what happened. I'm

50:22

quite fascinated to listen to a

50:24

story. My other work, aside

50:26

from podcasts, is to do with storytelling. I think

50:28

I've always been interested in that. But I think

50:31

that's something that is quite universal

50:33

to people generally. And I imagine a reason

50:35

why a lot of people listen is to

50:37

hear the stories, hear it build up. And

50:39

I know I've listened to quite a lot

50:41

of the podcasts that you guys make. And

50:44

I know a lot of them are very

50:46

storytelling. So that's why I listen to them as well.

50:51

Are you an entertainer, Andy? I

50:53

think we're all entertainers, if I'm being perfectly honest.

50:57

Why we entertain is an important question. If

50:59

it's to inform and to educate and to

51:02

be an advocate, that's

51:04

a good thing. If it's to just

51:07

forget fame and attention, maybe that's not a good

51:09

thing. But I think we're all entertainers in one

51:11

way or the other. I do believe, just to

51:13

add a positive slant on this, if that's OK.

51:16

If you look at other areas

51:19

in society, attitudes towards women,

51:21

attitudes towards minorities, and attitudes

51:23

towards as many other groups.

51:26

If you go back even 30, 30

51:29

years ago, 20 years ago, if you look

51:31

at it now, some of that was shocking. But

51:34

society is slowly starting to change. And

51:36

I feel that is, we're

51:38

at the very wild west when it comes to

51:40

this. We're at the very start of this. But

51:42

I do believe in maybe 20, 30

51:44

years time, people might be looking back and

51:46

thinking, wow, why do people

51:49

used to make this type of content? How could they

51:51

get away with it? And I think we're at the

51:53

very start of it. So it's good we're having this

51:55

conversation. But I do think there is hope. I don't

51:57

think We can give up. Hi

52:01

there had to the fans em. Anymore.

52:05

I get that and will go about

52:07

eight minutes left so she just quickly

52:09

worry race round. Any final thoughts on

52:11

this at this sub a banks Mike's

52:13

result will be. No.

52:18

I wasn't Ah I see is

52:20

an idea I'm with with the

52:22

case is how soon is too

52:24

soon or is too soon? To

52:28

as he was saying like his victims'

52:30

families are the kind of still grieving

52:32

and especially as he was saying with

52:34

pull with that case you just mentioned

52:36

that's fresh right now is similar to

52:38

a podcast about that this week. Or.

52:41

Even this year is that to sue. The.

52:44

As completely because. The

52:47

one I just mention the fact some

52:49

full younger. Some. Surely

52:51

why would you do something? And

52:54

then the week after you put out

52:56

a whole new story and Samson it

52:58

comes on from you. gonna. Be.

53:00

do it again. You know us and point.

53:03

Give. It a year there are plenty

53:05

plenty of other tales that new consumer

53:07

drones. No. No

53:10

No. Would never do anything. Fresh

53:13

like com. I want.

53:16

To. See. As as and

53:19

same add another pop in an alley from

53:21

three separate center in there. Are

53:23

in the chat and and they're very

53:26

much. that's why they choose really cases

53:28

because they think about the families and

53:30

Christ, what are your thoughts? And

53:33

yes I ah

53:35

I think. The

53:38

I don't know when he sees as

53:40

the I think because he mentioned that

53:42

love and are times when today cat

53:44

about family still grieving eighty eight one

53:46

hundred years after the events and I

53:48

don't I don't think there's a time

53:51

that is a good time and by

53:53

agree I mean that the sensitivity issue

53:55

isn't I don't want to cause I've

53:57

I've agree I wouldn't want to other

53:59

something. It's just happened or that is in

54:01

the news. Currently I'm I want to talk

54:03

about it. I might find it interesting to

54:06

talk, find might be topical on by. Probably

54:08

wouldn't cover a case like that. I

54:10

immediately. That. You Andy. From

54:13

as the as on the previous employer

54:15

lot and of us are you see

54:17

have a cool off where. I

54:20

will prove anything. Where. The.

54:23

Hasn't been a fool. Who

54:26

to this? you procedure So cold

54:28

case and or appeal? If it

54:30

looks like they could be an

54:32

appeal am I know that. Sometimes.

54:36

This is different and sometimes people can

54:39

go referring to a little bit closer

54:41

which. We.

54:43

See sometimes it's okay to she keeps

54:45

it fresh in people's mind for it

54:47

is very very unique situations but me

54:49

myself no I wouldn't like like Holford

54:51

face. The. Lucky ones we doing

54:53

this talks my some food on the fact that

54:55

you know. I'm. All for

54:57

two layer different folks from outlines you realize

55:00

I use completely wrong the you have been.

55:03

Sensationalist yourself. Book that is really tough

55:05

question because you leave it to lungs.

55:08

And. People.

55:11

Will want to listen and therefore you

55:13

can. Do the educational Peace

55:15

police too soon or you just. You.

55:18

Know gain old information. So a a

55:21

secret chef the a one has as

55:23

himself individually both. Myself I

55:25

lie. So these wave the to tissue

55:27

procedure to be complete. Were.

55:29

Like he might you ask the question, what the answer.

55:32

Yeah. I agree, it's. I

55:35

see if it is always a disco

55:37

ones that even like. I'm

55:39

kind of working on a case that

55:41

cellar cell A God I did a

55:43

case about two or three years ago

55:45

which is the night or early nineteen

55:48

seventies and I thought as find Chino

55:50

nineteen seventies dog was or wasn't even

55:52

born and A and but interest in

55:54

the I Do that calls from families

55:56

A do get calls from victims' families

55:58

and the perpetrators families. And

56:01

when you're talking to them on the phone direct,

56:03

you can hear it in their voices that the

56:06

pain is still there. So

56:09

same as you guys, I wrangle with it all the

56:11

time about trying to work out how

56:13

I should tell the story, to do

56:15

it in a sympathetic way, always from the

56:17

victim's perspective, but also thinking to myself, if

56:21

this was my family and I read

56:23

this or heard this, how would I feel? And

56:26

I think too often with

56:29

podcasting, TV, even

56:31

books as well, they don't think about

56:33

that first. Quite often they will just

56:35

think about money, fame, attention.

56:40

That's true. Okay, so we've got about

56:42

three minutes left. So why don't

56:44

I throw something into the mix? I know you're dying

56:46

to answer this question. So if

56:48

you were an animal, what animal would you

56:51

be? Andy? You should

56:53

know what this question haunts me because

56:55

I lost the student union presently over

56:57

this question. But the answer

56:59

I gave back then, some almost

57:01

30 years ago, was I'd be a cat

57:05

because I could lay it around and do

57:07

nothing all day and get fed and get

57:09

attention. So I'll stick

57:11

with that one, I think. I bet

57:13

you, Grace. I'd be a dog because

57:15

I am nearly 30 years old and have

57:17

been desperate for a dog since I was

57:19

about two. I think my mum's probably watching

57:22

this. So mum, for my birthday, I'll be

57:24

a dog and I'll be a dog with

57:26

the dog. I

57:28

bet you, Paul, I know you're dying to answer

57:31

this question. I'd have to be a koala, mate.

57:33

I think it's because everybody wants to cuddle it.

57:36

I'm sorry. I think I'm going to eat pussy. I've

57:40

got my pussy. Yeah. Downstairs,

57:42

fast asleep. She probably

57:44

has been for the whole day. Legend.

57:48

Legend. Back to you, Andy, about being a cat. It's

57:51

a great life, isn't it? Last

57:54

but not least, Mike, what would you be? They're

57:56

so annoying because literally I was going to say

57:58

koala, but not for the... Not for those

58:01

reasons. The reasons is he to spend

58:03

all day basically asleep and stone that

58:05

you mind. Wonderful!

58:10

Any Daniel Berrigan or on that bugs

58:12

out of sight my son poll as

58:14

he so my how how's this is

58:16

off first episode thank him for joining

58:18

us. If we the my is. Do.

58:22

Different. An then

58:24

he was to my poetry degree me

58:27

grace and and they had to the

58:29

seen and read. Rumpled costs Great shows

58:31

where I'm at. Recommend ever watch and

58:33

listen to them. I keep

58:35

it running cycling. he so much

58:37

noise as hundred pounds and if

58:39

any. Pleasure Site. Precise

58:42

in the storm everyone and will see a

58:45

safe. And

58:47

follow the vitamins. As

58:50

the Love. New. Live in

58:52

a month ago that God might be.

58:54

Go. Right

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up my chemical voice was like with basketball

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hockey am a big college he started becoming.

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There's plenty of games the on am when

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like are massive on who's with a bigger

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fails try our parlay that sick how many

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legs you need a headset on your bed

1:01:03

even if you miss a leg or to

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claim on you sign up bonus and at

1:01:07

one hundred dollars in Budapest with you that

1:01:09

twenty five dollars sun about and or promo

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code one hundred tickets or bonus round order

1:01:14

to afford it. I. Will

1:01:16

look a little high them to dozens upon

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probable one hundred number.