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1:35

acast.com. I'm

1:42

David Knowles, and this is Ukraine,

1:44

the latest. Today, we

1:46

bring you news from the front lines

1:48

as Ukrainian troops withdraw from a key

1:50

district of Chassivyar. And we have the

1:52

latest diplomatic and political news as

1:55

President Zelensky challenges Donald Trump

1:57

to explain his peace plan.

1:59

Bravery. takes you through

2:01

the most unimaginable

2:04

hardships to finally reward you

2:06

with victory. If we give

2:08

President Zelensky the tools, the

2:11

Ukrainians will finish the job.

2:13

Slava, Ukraine-y! Nobody's going to

2:15

break us. We're strong. We're

2:18

Ukrainians. It's

2:20

Thursday, the 4th of July. Two years

2:22

and 136 days since the full-scale

2:25

invasion began. And today I'm

2:27

joined by our associate editor, Dominic Nichols, an

2:29

assistant comment editor, Francis Stern. I

2:32

started by asking Dom for the latest

2:34

news from Ukraine. Let's

2:38

start in the east of Ukraine,

2:40

the Donetsk region, and the city

2:42

of Chassivyar, which has been

2:44

under relentless attack for weeks now. Ukraine's

2:47

troops are said to have pulled out of

2:49

a key district in the city, so Ukrainian

2:51

armed forces said this morning. Now

2:53

this city, Chassivyar, is said to hold the

2:55

key to the rest of the Dom-Bass. It's

2:57

supposed to be a sort of gateway to

2:59

a sort of line of four major cities,

3:02

which command the ground in the area. Been

3:04

under attack for months now, land and air. Military

3:07

spokesperson Nazar Volushin, speaking

3:09

on national TV, said, it

3:11

became impractical to hold the

3:14

canal neighborhood. After the

3:16

enemy entered it, the positions of our defenders

3:18

were destroyed. The command decided

3:20

to pull back to more protected and

3:22

prepared positions, but even there,

3:24

the enemy does not stop its active combat actions.

3:27

Now, the wider area still seems to

3:30

be engulfed in intense fighting. Ivan Petrovchak,

3:33

spokesperson for Ukraine's 24th Brigade,

3:36

defending Chassivyar, said, we see no less

3:38

up in the amount of shelling. The

3:40

enemy is using artillery and multiple rocket

3:42

systems. The situation remains tense, but the

3:45

24th Brigade is holding its positions. Now,

3:48

Mr. Petrovchak said the situation was

3:50

critically difficult, fierce fighting around

3:52

the canal area. So just to dial

3:54

ourselves into the geography, Chassivyar, a city

3:57

of about, well, picture it as a

3:59

capital S. the lesser capital F, but with

4:01

the uppermost bar, the horizontal

4:03

bar, longer than the lower one,

4:05

about each side about 2Ks long-ish.

4:08

Now, imagine that the end of the

4:10

top line of that capital F, the

4:12

last quarter of it, is

4:15

bisected by a canal running north to south.

4:17

That forms a natural obstacle. That canal is

4:20

very hard to get across. It's somewhat easier

4:22

to defend, not impossible. And I

4:24

think interpreting those statements, I've had a look at

4:26

the ground, I think what Ukraine has done is

4:28

pulled its forces back across that canal into

4:30

the wider bit of that capital F and left that last 20%,

4:32

if you like, or 10% of the whole city on the eastern

4:35

side of

4:38

the canal in Russian hands. That's

4:40

what I think is happening, but that's not been

4:42

confirmed anywhere. Now, elsewhere, last night,

4:44

Ukraine shot down 21 of 22 Shaheed drones that

4:46

had been fired at

4:49

six regions across northern and central Ukraine.

4:51

This comes from Ukraine's Air Force this

4:54

morning. The governor of the northern region

4:56

of Chenehiv said that one of the

4:58

drones struck a facility in his region

5:00

that's left over 5,000 people without power. That

5:04

was part of the range of attacks across

5:06

the country. Sapirizhia regional governor Ivan Fedorov said

5:08

10 settlements in his area had been hit

5:10

a total of nearly 400 times

5:13

in the last 24 hours, causing

5:15

deaths and injuries across the region.

5:18

There was a wave of air attacks on

5:20

Dnipro city, which killed more people. Ivan

5:22

Zelensky in his nightly address yesterday issued

5:25

a fresh appeal for more air defense

5:27

systems and for permission to use Western

5:29

donated weapons to strike Russian targets

5:32

inside Russia. He said, as

5:34

of now, five people have been killed and

5:36

34 injured, including a child. Only

5:38

two things can stop this Russian terror,

5:40

modern air defense systems and the long

5:43

range capabilities of our weapons. Now,

5:45

separately, Russia's defense ministry said this morning

5:47

that its troops had destroyed the Ukrainian

5:49

MiG-29 fighter jet during what is if

5:51

it's true. And we've no way of

5:53

verifying any of this. No way of

5:56

verifying the Ukraine assertions

5:58

either. But if this is correct, then we'll be back. then

6:00

it's the second strike in a week on air bases deep

6:03

within Ukraine. So Moscow claimed

6:05

the JET or that the A-JET vehicles

6:07

and other equipment have been destroyed at

6:09

the base of Dolgin Sevo by an

6:11

Iskander ballistic missile attack. They've posted footage

6:13

which we're carrying on our website. Have

6:15

a look at it. It's interesting. I've

6:17

been looking at it again and again

6:19

trying to look at different angles, trying

6:21

to find more information on it. It

6:24

does show an aircraft, but

6:26

it certainly ain't a MiG-29. It shows

6:28

an aircraft near, I mean

6:31

it's very, it'd be very

6:33

generous to call it a hardened aircraft shelter.

6:35

So you hear about the term HAZIS, hardened

6:37

aircraft shelters, which do exactly what it says

6:39

on the tin. That's how you should look

6:41

after your aircraft. Well, the thing that this

6:43

aircraft is parked next to certainly isn't one

6:46

of those or not to any great degree.

6:48

And then the shots will change

6:50

its angle and we see an area

6:53

explode. But whatever

6:55

the structure is, is not hit.

6:58

I mean the missile lands nearby,

7:00

so I don't think any person

7:02

would have survived if they'd been stood nearby. But

7:04

it certainly didn't hit the structure.

7:06

And in that second image where

7:08

something explodes, I can't see

7:11

that aircraft that's in the first

7:13

one that I'm saying wasn't a MiG-29 anyway.

7:15

So there's a lot of differing

7:17

images there, I think. There's no battle

7:19

damage assessment. There's no BDA. So for

7:21

example, we're not shown if there's a

7:24

Russian drone in the area

7:26

that was showing this area and purporting

7:28

to show this attack. It doesn't hang

7:30

around afterwards and show us anything afterwards.

7:32

A smoking MiG-29 Hulk on the floor.

7:34

So it's all a bit of a

7:36

mishmash. I can't say for certain whether

7:38

it did or didn't happen. But go

7:40

and have a look for yourself. I'm

7:42

skeptical, I will say. However, you'll remember

7:44

that on Tuesday, Russia said

7:47

it had destroyed five Ukrainian

7:49

SU-27 jets and damaged two

7:51

more at another airbase deep

7:53

inside Ukraine in the MiG-29.

7:55

Now that attack, not the numbers necessarily, but

7:57

the attack was confirmed by Ukraine at the

7:59

time. And this is all thought

8:01

to be part of Russia's effort at the

8:04

moment to target airfields they believe will eventually

8:06

house F-16s when they turn up. Okay,

8:08

the next one, interesting story from Bloomberg. Bloomberg

8:11

is saying that Russia and China

8:13

are working together to produce a

8:15

version of Iran's Shaheed drone. They

8:17

are quoting European intelligence sources for

8:19

their piece. Now they're saying

8:22

that the drones themselves are still described as

8:24

being in the test and development phase, but

8:26

any sending of drones from China would

8:28

be a major escalation in their

8:31

support for the Kremlin. One

8:33

source told Bloomberg that the US still

8:35

doesn't consider China to be sending lethal

8:37

aid but conceded that other nations may

8:40

have a different interpretation. You know,

8:42

it's all military, it all has military use.

8:45

Russia obviously largely reliant on Iran for

8:47

drones up to now, certainly in the

8:49

quantities it requires. It can make its

8:51

own drones to a certain degree, but

8:53

nothing like the quantity that they've been

8:55

receiving Shaheed drones. And we

8:57

know that Russia, it's strongly suspected that

9:00

Russia is building a factory in the

9:02

city of Kazan, 600 k's, east

9:04

of Moscow, specifically to produce their own version

9:07

of drones, but at the moment, very, very

9:09

heavily reliant on importing this kind of stuff.

9:12

Now Western officials declined to give

9:14

specifics on this alleged China drone

9:16

program, but Bloomberg reported that Chinese

9:18

factories are developing a drone that's

9:21

been dubbed the Sunflower 200, very

9:25

similar in appearance to the Iranian Shaheed.

9:27

I'm not exactly sure who has dubbed

9:29

it the Sunflower, obviously a national symbol

9:31

of Ukraine, but it's a rather pointed

9:34

reference. China and Russia, of

9:36

course, increasingly close. I think we're going to hear

9:38

more about that shortly from Francis. So

9:40

I reckon this is probably more push

9:42

from Moscow than pull from Beijing. But

9:44

China is thought now to be doing

9:46

more than just sending small tokens of

9:48

military equipment. For example, it's been said

9:50

that they are providing satellite imagery of

9:52

battlefield in Ukraine so they can seem

9:54

to be getting more involved. And you

9:56

may remember Anthony Blinken, the US Secretary

9:59

of State. last month accused

10:01

China of keeping the Russian defense

10:03

industrial base going. He said they

10:05

were providing 70 percent of

10:07

the machine tools that Russia is using

10:09

and 90 percent of its micro electronics.

10:12

Russia, for their part, is selling most of its

10:14

oil and gas to China at a heavily discounted

10:16

price to keep that trade going. And

10:19

Chinese banks also provide crystal

10:21

infrastructure for Russia's financial institutions,

10:23

trading rubles for NIMBY, the

10:25

yuan, the Chinese currency. On

10:29

Wednesday of this week, the head of

10:31

Russia's civil nuclear power program said

10:33

he was going to fly to China in the

10:35

next few days to start a joint project

10:37

to build a nuclear power station on

10:39

the moon by 2036. So,

10:42

okay, maybe take that one, a bit of

10:44

moon dust, but very, very, oh,

10:46

much closer, much closer ties between the

10:49

two countries. Okay,

10:51

a couple more for me. Ukraine sought

10:54

to address manpower issues by

10:56

forming several new brigades, but weapon

10:58

shortages and delays mean they're not

11:01

at all likely to be equipped

11:03

as such. This comes from the

11:05

ISW Institute for the Study of

11:07

War. The US-based think tank says

11:09

that timely and appropriate Western security

11:12

assistance continues to be a critical

11:14

determinant of when and at what

11:16

scale Ukrainian forces can contest the

11:18

battlefield initiative and conduct operationally

11:21

significant counteroffensive operations

11:23

in the future. Now, comes

11:25

as President Zelensky said yesterday, that Ukraine's

11:27

forces are in a much better place

11:29

in terms of manpower than they were

11:32

a few months ago. However, speaking to

11:34

Bloomberg, he said no counteroffensive would be

11:36

able to take place without equipping brigades

11:38

with heavy equipment, IFEs, so

11:40

the infantry fighting vehicles, armored

11:42

personnel carriers, tanks, and other stuff like

11:44

heavy artillery. A bit more

11:47

NATO aid on the way. NATO officials

11:49

have agreed to provide Kiev with an

11:51

additional €40 billion, so

11:54

about €34 billion, about €41-42 billion worth

11:59

of military aid. Next year, this comes

12:01

from a Western diplomat. Leaders

12:03

are expected to sign off on this pledge

12:05

at the NATO summit next week in Washington.

12:07

Ukraine expected to be very, very high on

12:10

the agenda. It's not dominating the whole week.

12:13

The outgoing Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg, is

12:15

asked allies to make a multiyear commitment

12:17

to keep funding Kyiv at the same

12:19

level that they have done since the

12:21

full-scale invasion a couple of years ago.

12:23

So that's roughly €40 billion a

12:25

year, Jens Stoltenberg saying that we need

12:27

to make a commitment, a long-term commitment

12:30

at that sort of level. The quantity of

12:32

money is good, but of course it's the

12:34

being able to plan year after year to

12:36

then lay down these long-term industrial contracts. That's

12:39

what's really going to tip the scales in

12:41

an attritional industrial war, which is seemingly where

12:43

we are at the moment. So let's keep

12:45

an eye out for that next week in

12:47

Washington. And then just finally for me, David,

12:50

a couple are said to have posed

12:52

as newlyweds to send pictures of Ukrainian

12:54

targets back to Russia. Ukrainian

12:56

authorities have detained a couple who have been

12:58

posing in front of certain locations masquerading

13:01

as newlyweds. This comes

13:03

from the SPU, the Ukraine Security

13:05

Service. They said that a 23-year-old

13:07

man and his 18-year-old female partner,

13:09

both from the Odessa region, were

13:11

collecting intelligence from Moscow on important

13:13

sites that are targeting

13:16

for future airstrikes. The

13:18

SPU said that the pair were caught red-handed

13:21

and detained when, quote, spying near

13:23

a potential target. The

13:25

agency said they're uncovered anti-Ukrainian leaflets

13:27

and evidence of payment from

13:30

the FSB, that's Russia's security service. So

13:32

the insider threat is still very, very

13:34

real there. And that's up to date,

13:36

David. Well, thank you very

13:38

much, Dom, for all of that. Francis,

13:40

can I come to you? What's the

13:42

latest diplomatic and political news? Well,

13:44

thanks, David, and happy Independence Day to our

13:46

American listeners. Just think, in a different world,

13:49

you could still be living under the prosperous

13:51

rule of King Charles III. North

13:54

has a lot to answer for. But

13:57

with that thought, let's start with the US

13:59

again, shall we? The increased conversations about

14:01

the prospect of a return of

14:03

President Trump, discussed at length in

14:06

yesterday's podcast and the day before,

14:08

has sparked an interesting intervention by

14:10

President Zelensky. So he

14:13

has openly called on Donald

14:15

Trump to disclose his plan

14:17

to end the war in

14:19

Ukraine and warned that any

14:21

proposal must avoid violating Ukraine's

14:23

sovereignty. To quote President

14:26

Zelensky directly, if Trump knows how

14:28

to end this war, he should tell

14:30

us today, because if there are risks

14:32

to Ukraine's independence, if there are risks that

14:35

we lose statehood, we want to be

14:37

prepared for this, he told Bloomberg. They

14:39

can't plan my life and life of our

14:41

people and our children. We want

14:44

to understand whether in November we will have

14:46

the powerful support of the US or

14:48

we will be all alone. Now

14:51

I think this gets to

14:53

the heart of something underappreciated

14:55

by many Western politicians and

14:57

commentators that Ukraine remains

15:00

publicly, at least, committed to

15:02

fighting to restore all of

15:04

its territory for as

15:06

long as that struggle takes. I've

15:08

seen no evidence that they are expecting

15:12

or eagerly awaiting negotiations to

15:14

begin where they would be

15:16

willing to concede territory.

15:19

That has major ramifications

15:21

for the war as a whole,

15:23

but it's rarely discussed as far

15:25

as I can tell. We've

15:28

mentioned it a few times on the podcast

15:30

over the last couple of years, this

15:32

gap, but it doesn't seem to really

15:34

be something that is articulated publicly by

15:36

many politicians, even those who are friendly

15:39

to Ukraine. But it really is vital

15:41

and it gets to the very core

15:44

of where we might go in

15:46

the so-called worst case

15:48

scenarios from Ukraine's perspective, where let's

15:50

imagine that America does withdraw substantial

15:53

support, then it will be up

15:55

to Europe to fill that void,

15:57

potentially, if not

16:00

decide to try and get to the negotiating

16:02

table as soon as possible if indeed that

16:04

is what a President Trump wants. So

16:07

an interesting intervention I think by

16:09

Zelensky in pretty punchy given that

16:11

we know he is in conversations

16:14

with Trump's team. As I

16:16

say for more on this I recommend

16:18

yesterday's episode where I talked about a

16:20

Politico article reflecting on the most likely

16:23

attitude that Trump will adopt towards Ukraine

16:25

though of course always emphasising that at

16:27

the moment it is speculation. And as

16:29

we all know Trump is very

16:31

much a changeable figure and he may not

16:33

even win the presidency but the point is

16:35

we have to imagine that scenario given how

16:38

many polls at the moment suggested is

16:40

the most likely scenario. Now

16:43

staying with Zelensky according to

16:45

reports in Ukraine's Gopravda he

16:48

may be preparing to sack Prime

16:50

Minister Denis Schmeichel in a major

16:53

possible shake up to his cabinet.

16:56

Suppose close to Zelensky said the President is looking for

16:58

more creative leadership and is finding

17:00

Schmeichel who has been in post

17:02

since 2020 slow to adapt. He

17:05

doesn't even listen to him much anymore says

17:07

one source. It is more of an emotional

17:10

thing than a miscalculation. A

17:12

second source added it was the second

17:14

attempt by the administration to dismiss Mr

17:16

Schmeichel in two months and that he

17:18

is likely to be replaced with the

17:20

first Deputy Prime Minister Yudhyr Sverayodenko.

17:24

Now the usual caveats apply

17:27

this could be politicians playing

17:29

politics but nonetheless it is

17:31

interesting and might be significant.

17:35

After all I do find that wording

17:37

there about wanting creative leadership

17:40

quite revealing we've talked about

17:42

in the past the challenges

17:44

the administration faces of

17:47

still saying the same messaging two years into

17:49

the war and getting the same amount of

17:51

exposure for doing so. There needs

17:53

to be arguably for some time

17:55

really a change in strategy at

17:57

least in terms of public articulation.

18:00

even if their own stance does not change

18:02

in order to keep the

18:04

spotlight. And that's just a fact,

18:06

however uncomfortable it may make us.

18:10

Now, turning away to

18:12

the Shanghai Cooperation Organization

18:14

Summit in Kazakhstan, which is

18:16

that meeting attended by President

18:18

Putin, there have been some

18:21

interesting remarks that have come out of

18:23

it. I gave a little bit more

18:25

context on this yesterday and those that

18:27

are present. Now, one of the other

18:29

attendees is President Erdogan of Turkey, who

18:32

told Putin he can play peacemaker between

18:34

Russia and Ukraine to end the war,

18:36

fulfilling that long established role Turkey has

18:38

had as a historical broker between East

18:41

and West. So he said a just

18:43

priest that suits both sides

18:45

is possible. As

18:48

I mentioned a moment ago, this to me

18:51

at least seems to misunderstand how

18:53

irreconcilable the two sides' perspectives

18:55

of the war are. Neither

18:58

Russia nor Ukraine have or

19:00

will really abandon their maximist

19:02

objectives until they are compelled

19:04

to do so by external

19:06

forces or on the battlefield.

19:09

As things stand, there's no peace that can

19:11

suit both sides, nor can

19:13

we really ever envisage one, I don't

19:15

think. One side or the other will

19:17

not succeed in their overarching objective. It

19:20

can't be any other way. And the battle

19:22

is about which side succeeds

19:24

in its objective and which

19:26

side loses its objective. So

19:29

all of this talk, I think, is for the

19:31

birds until something fundamentally changes. But of course, we've

19:33

been saying that now for the best part of

19:35

a year and a half, but nothing fundamental has

19:38

yet changed, one could argue. Now,

19:40

meanwhile, further to what Don was

19:42

talking about earlier on in the weapons realm,

19:44

China and Russia have also urged at this

19:47

summit their allies and partners to advance their

19:49

shared agenda. Xi of China

19:51

called on countries to resist

19:53

external interference whilst Putin

19:55

claimed new centers of political and economic

19:58

might were on the rise. But

20:00

to quote the Xi quotation in

20:03

full, he said, we should join

20:05

hands to resist external interference, which

20:07

is pretty ironic given that they

20:09

are the ones pushing this Betelbrot

20:11

initiative. But anyway, that's by the

20:13

by. Firmly support each other,

20:16

take care of each other's concerns,

20:18

and firmly control the future and

20:20

destiny of our country's and regional

20:23

peace development in our own hands.

20:26

It is of vital importance to the world

20:28

that this summit be on the right side

20:30

of history and on the side of fairness

20:33

and justice. Anyway, so

20:35

an interesting one. No huge surprises

20:37

there, nor any major announcements as

20:39

yet. But further signs of how despite

20:41

the initial shock of the war and

20:44

the prospect of Putin not being able to travel, he

20:46

is now back on the diplomatic circuit. Though

20:49

it would be interesting to know how those

20:52

countries feel privately about him

20:54

cozying up to Kim Jong-un

20:56

in North Korea and whether

20:58

their perspective on Russian power

21:00

projection has changed, there is

21:02

considerable evidence that it's quite

21:04

profoundly changed in Central Asia.

21:06

And we've discussed that, of course, with James Kilner many times.

21:09

And I believe he'll be joining us on the podcast tomorrow.

21:12

So those are the major stories in the

21:14

political realm, David. Consciously a few of those

21:16

are continuing from yesterday and earlier episodes this

21:18

week. But that's how things are at the

21:21

moment, that things in the political realm are

21:23

going quite steadily as we await the NATO summit

21:25

and of course the conclusion of this summit in

21:27

Kazakhstan. Thank you very much, Dom

21:29

and Francis. One, hopefully very interesting update for

21:31

our listeners. Two, add more value to Telegraph

21:34

subscribers. We've launched bonus episodes on Apple. So

21:36

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21:38

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21:45

on Ukraine, the latest that published this week,

21:47

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22:19

The Battle Lines episode is actually our

22:21

very own Dom Nichols talking to former

22:23

Royal Navy sailors about how to hunt

22:25

a Russian submarine. And the Ukraine

22:27

episode is a mini documentary

22:29

really of my time going back to

22:32

Hostomol and Bucher in our trip earlier

22:34

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23:34

I come to Dom first for your very

23:37

final thought please, Dom Nichols? Yeah,

23:39

thanks David. That interview with the about how to

23:41

hunt a Russian submarine. I interviewed Ryan

23:43

Ramsey, who's a former submarine commander,

23:46

and he was talking about what the

23:48

fight looks like below the surface. I

23:51

spoke to friend Tom Sharp. So the

23:53

two of them having a bat and ball basically about who

23:56

could do it better, but actually then they both came to the

23:58

conclusion that they neither could do it without the others. But

24:00

it's a fascinating sort of peak below the

24:02

waves about how to hunt submarines. So do go and

24:04

have a listen to that. Well, as

24:06

David says, if you so wish. And if you don't want to

24:08

do that, that's fine as well, which is nice to know. Anyway,

24:11

final thought. I would point

24:13

you towards my friend and colleague, Rohit,

24:15

at ITV, Rohit Khataru. He's the global

24:17

security editor at ITV here in the

24:20

UK. He's had an interview with

24:22

Sir Alex Younger, the former chief of SIS,

24:24

better known as MI6. Good

24:26

interview, he's got it out on social media at

24:29

the moment. It's on the ITV website. Alex

24:31

Younger says he's worried about Donald Trump

24:33

returning to office in the

24:35

US elections in November. Alex Younger said,

24:37

what's the thing that we do, the

24:40

autocratic regimes don't do, we make alliances,

24:42

and we have a separation of powers

24:44

within our countries that make our governments

24:46

accountable. I think on both those issues,

24:48

Donald Trump takes a different approach. Alex

24:51

Younger also said that Donald Trump was right

24:53

to bully, his words, bully many NATO nations

24:56

to do more, over the

24:58

spending, and says that he totally acknowledges

25:00

that many NATO nations are free riding,

25:02

again, his words, free riding on the

25:04

US. Alex Younger said, my

25:06

message to Donald Trump, if I was

25:09

the next prime minister, would be that

25:11

America is not being done over. It's

25:13

a prime beneficiary of the international system

25:15

that it has set up and his

25:17

willingness to police globalization. Whilst I can

25:19

see that is an onerous and expensive

25:22

task, it's profoundly beneficial. And then

25:24

just finally, he was pointing out the threat

25:26

from Russia. He says, we have a decade, we have 10

25:28

years to sort ourselves out on

25:30

this and face down, as he's at

25:32

the Russian threat. He says, if we don't do it in

25:34

10 years, I think we're gonna

25:36

put our kids in a position of extraordinary vulnerability

25:38

for which they will not thank us. So that

25:40

was a sort of snapshot of a, about a

25:43

five or six minute televised

25:45

interview with Alex Younger, former head of MI6 by

25:47

Rohit, my

25:50

pal Rohit over at ITV. Well worth

25:52

a look. Interesting comments there from former

25:54

Spook. Thank you very much,

25:56

Dom Nichols. Francis Durnley, would you like the very

25:58

final words today? Thanks David.

26:01

I mentioned earlier that it's

26:03

Independence Day in the United States today

26:05

and of course it is also the

26:08

day of the general election here in

26:10

Britain which we will discuss the

26:12

results of tomorrow due to

26:15

election restrictions here. We can't go

26:17

into detail whilst elections are taking place

26:19

just the way things stand but we will be

26:21

doing so tomorrow. But

26:23

suffice to say it's on days

26:25

such as this that there is

26:27

a value I think in pausing

26:29

to reflect on the

26:31

privilege that is political sovereignty and

26:34

democracy, something that is being fought for

26:36

in Ukraine of course and many other

26:39

countries across the globe. Freedom

26:42

isn't free as we often

26:44

hear and we forget that at

26:46

our peril. The

26:49

solemnity of the ballot

26:51

box as you're

26:54

scribbling your cross is

26:56

something that was

26:59

earned on a crowded

27:02

loud horrific battlefield

27:04

in many circumstances and

27:07

so when you have the

27:09

right to vote it's

27:12

something that was not shared by those

27:14

who gave their lives in order to make yours

27:16

possible. So a bit of a somber

27:19

final thought David but it's something I'll be

27:21

thinking about when I go and vote later on. And

27:24

just before we go here's

27:26

a short extract from the

27:28

subscriber first audio documentary we

27:30

released yesterday on Wednesday. For

27:37

two months Roman wasn't able to return to

27:39

his apartment. From Kiev he

27:42

could see smoke in the sky from the direction of Hostomol

27:45

but he had no way of knowing whether his flat was still

27:47

standing. By the end

27:49

of March the Russians were in retreat but

27:51

Roman was only able to come back two weeks

27:53

later. The

27:57

area had to be demined and when

27:59

he returned There was no electricity,

28:01

no water, no sewage system. So,

28:11

Roman is showing us a video now of their

28:13

reentry into this, where we're standing, so this playground

28:15

just in front of, just in the middle of

28:17

all these apartments, and the ground is all churned

28:19

up, and there's lots of damage to the apartments,

28:21

and he's saying that the Russians and the occupation

28:23

placed a lot of their heavy vehicles here. That's

28:27

something I've seen quite a bit, and the fact that it's

28:29

added, that's a mini shell splatter, isn't it? There's

28:32

quite a lot of the damages radiating outwards, and you can see where

28:34

that, where it's going. Absolutely, some sort of

28:36

a theory shell. Roman's

28:39

showing us pictures of one of his neighbour's flats,

28:41

and it's completely blown out, there's no glass in

28:43

the windows, and there's rubble everywhere, so was it

28:45

hit by a missile or a... Motor.

28:49

It was a motor, yeah. It

28:51

was a little bit of a machine, and it was a little bit

28:53

of a... It was a little bit of a...

28:56

So Roman is saying that they

28:58

chose this building to be their

29:01

headquarters? The apartment block is many

29:03

stories high, and overlooks the whole city of

29:05

Ostomol. Because of its strategic

29:07

position, Roman tells us the Russians used

29:09

the flats as an observation point. They

29:12

even occupied his flat. And

29:15

if you want to hear more of

29:17

Roman and his family's story, do go

29:19

to our subscriber-only audio on our subscriber

29:21

feed, on our Apple Podcasts. Thank you

29:23

so much for listening. Which

29:48

brings stories from our reward-winning foreign correspondents straight

29:50

to your inbox. We also have a Ukraine

29:52

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29:55

follow updates as they come in throughout the

29:57

day, including insights from regular contributors to this

29:59

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And you can contact us directly on Twitter. You

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this episode. Ukraine the latest is produced

30:44

by Louisa Wells and Giles Gear. Hey

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