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1:26

I am in the shed for a unique

1:29

episode. We have not one, but

1:32

two stories for you. A pair of cases

1:34

linked in a way that will become clear, exploring

1:37

an aspect of the paranormal that we have not

1:40

previously investigated. Both happen

1:42

to ordinary people in very ordinary

1:44

places, but feature jaw-dropping

1:47

moments that will send a shiver

1:49

down your spine, and I think also offer

1:52

something really exciting, a potential

1:54

proof that our universe

1:56

is far stranger and more

1:58

complex than we yet understand.

1:59

stand, so wherever you are, get

2:02

ready, because I'm Danny Robbins,

2:05

and this is an uncanny

2:08

double bill. I

2:10

have lift

2:12

on it, make some

2:15

move inside

2:17

my mind. I

2:20

know what I should

2:23

want. I

2:27

know what I should

2:31

want.

2:48

I'm about 6 foot 3, very broad shouldered,

2:51

and ever since I've been young I've had white

2:53

hair, white beard. This is Mick, normally

2:55

I describe our witnesses, but I'm going

2:58

to let him describe himself. It started

3:00

turning white when I was about 14. I'm 53

3:03

now, so I've finally grown into

3:06

how I look. When Mick says hair, he actually

3:08

means a flowing mane. He looks a bit like Gandalf

3:11

if Gandalf worked out. Basically,

3:13

he stands out from the crowd. These

3:15

days he lives in Nova Scotia in Canada.

3:17

He moved there because he works in shipbuilding,

3:20

an industry that has taken him all over

3:22

the world. I ended up working in

3:24

Greece, Finland, and

3:27

Norway, which is where I met my wife. That

3:29

was all in his early 20s, but by 1996, aged 26, he and

3:31

his wife Magda have settled back

3:36

in Mick's hometown, Newcastle-upon-Tine,

3:39

with their 4-year-old son. I bought

3:41

a house and then

3:43

needed some form of transport, so I

3:46

bought an old car from the local motor

3:48

museum in Newburgh. Even as a young

3:50

man, Mick has a passion for anti-cars,

3:53

and this one is a beauty. It

3:55

was a 1955 Woonsie V444. For

4:00

me, he doesn't know about cars. What does that look like? Okay,

4:02

so if you look at any old film from

4:05

the 1950s, the police cars that they

4:07

used will be Woonsleys. It had

4:09

a lot of chrome on it. It had beautiful

4:11

black paintwork. It had nice

4:14

grey leather interior and a wooden

4:16

dashboard. If Mick himself is distinctive

4:18

looking, he now also owns a distinctive

4:20

looking car. Lots of people would recognise

4:23

us and we used to get reports

4:25

of where we'd been and who had seen us. So

4:28

Mick and his family become local characters

4:30

driving their Woonsley around Newcastle.

4:33

And then, one sunny day in

4:35

late March 1996, Mick,

4:38

Magda and their son are driving along the

4:40

west road, the route of the old Roman

4:42

Wall. We're heading in towards Newcastle

4:46

and about halfway along, where he comes to the

4:48

juncture with Hampstead Road, he stopped at

4:50

the shopping rates, I get behind

4:52

a white barn which sort of restricts

4:55

my field of view and then the van stops

4:57

pull away and my notice on

5:00

the other side of the road is

5:02

the radiator of a similar

5:05

Woonsley coming towards me. It's

5:07

the same colour, it's exactly the

5:09

same model and type. So

5:13

I'm trying to catch the eye who I was inside and

5:15

we give a little wave. But as

5:17

the cars drew level, I then

5:20

looked over and it's

5:22

actually difficult to see this because

5:24

the more you see it, the more it

5:26

sounds fantastical. But

5:29

the people that were inside the vehicle

5:31

was myself, my

5:34

wife and my son just looking back

5:36

at us. You were

5:38

staring at yourselves? Yes. They

5:40

are staring

5:42

rather

5:43

wide-eyed. They looked shocked

5:47

and curious as well. They're

5:49

just looking very intently at us as

5:52

we drive past. This is

5:54

so weird. In the nicest

5:56

possible way, you are a pretty unusual looking

5:59

person. They're called... be a lot of people wandering

6:01

around Newcastle who look like you and certainly

6:03

not driving the same car. Were

6:06

they even wearing the same clothes as you? Yes,

6:08

we used to wear the same clothes quite a lot, especially

6:11

in winter and autumn. At the time

6:13

I had a barber jacket and

6:16

the other driver was wearing that. What

6:18

about your son? Yes, he's wearing

6:20

a blue small hoodie jacket

6:23

and that was the same on the other

6:25

side coming back. Yes. And what does your

6:27

wife think? Does she see all this too? Yes,

6:29

we just got home and just,

6:32

you know, he saw the car didn't he? Yeah, it was

6:35

the same car as I was. Yeah, it was identical.

6:37

Did you see who was inside of it? Yeah,

6:39

he looked like you and she looked like me.

6:42

What can you say? We just

6:44

had to accept that it was something that

6:47

this morning time we don't explain.

6:51

So it stays like that, an unexplainable

6:54

moment, an unscratchable itch, until

6:58

six months later Mick and his family

7:00

are back in the Woolsey driving down

7:02

that same stretch of the West Road. So

7:05

we were going in the opposite direction until last

7:07

time and we

7:08

stopped at the drooping lights across

7:11

roads. The same

7:12

spot as after? It was the exact same spot

7:14

at the junction of Hampstead Road and

7:16

I looked across and there's a white barn waiting

7:19

at the lights and I

7:22

just started to feel a little bit on edge

7:25

for no real reason and then

7:27

the lights change and the white barn pulls

7:29

away and I get this

7:31

strange feeling that we've

7:33

been here before and that's

7:36

when I said to my wife, we're going to pass

7:38

ourselves again and

7:40

coming towards us I see the same Woolsey,

7:43

the same one that we

7:45

are driving in and I

7:48

see again the occupants are

7:50

myself, my wife and

7:52

my son. They're waving

7:54

at us.

7:56

All I did this time was just

7:58

look back in the

7:59

The first time you saw them, you

8:02

waved and they looked shocked. A

8:04

second time it's the other way around? I was shocked the second time,

8:07

yes. What are you thinking there?

8:10

It was almost like, okay, this is the second

8:12

half of the story playing out. It's inevitable.

8:15

I always sort of knew that I was going to pass

8:17

myself at this point on the road, and here

8:19

I am. This explains the

8:22

first encounter. And do

8:24

your wife and son see it too? Yes.

8:27

Of course my son was only four at the time. Definitely

8:29

for my wife. When she

8:31

looked over, she did look at herself.

8:34

And that's when I sort of went, okay, I'm

8:36

not going crazy. She saw it as well.

8:39

Mick, do you feel that this other car and

8:41

these other U's were

8:43

actually there, or do you feel that they are some kind of ghosts?

8:47

I definitely feel that there was another

8:49

vehicle there. I didn't feel

8:51

any sense of other-worldness

8:53

about it. It registered in the rearview

8:56

mirror, and the cars

8:58

both forward and after it were separated

9:01

to give it space. And I'm fairly

9:03

certain that the registration was the same as

9:05

the registration. So the first three letters

9:07

of the registration of the car were TTT,

9:11

which in a mirror image, when you're looking in your rearview

9:13

mirror, also is TTT. All

9:15

these years later, how do you make sense of it?

9:18

I can't explain it. I don't. I

9:20

don't have an answer for it. The

9:23

first time, I just thought I was looking at another

9:25

car with a very similar family inside of it.

9:28

One retrospect, after we passed

9:30

ourselves at the same spot, the

9:32

second time I thought, well, yeah, the

9:35

first time we were looking at ourselves in the future.

9:38

Now we're looking at ourselves coming the other way. It

9:41

is quite unsettling. I'm

9:50

such

9:50

a strange encounter, unlike anything that we've

9:52

heard before. Let's bring in some experts. I'm

9:55

joined by one of our regular psychologists,

9:57

Professor Chris French, and journalist, as well.

10:00

Azania Patel who's written widely about

10:02

ghosts and joined us for the first time last season

10:05

on Case 12, The Ghost at Father Sam. Azania,

10:08

we've not had many stranger cases

10:11

than this Anand Kani. What do you feel

10:13

is happening to Mick?

10:14

So I think what we've done is we've walked

10:16

into a very particularly niche kind

10:19

of paranormal experience here, which is the experience

10:21

of the doppelganger. Now this word

10:24

doppelganger is literally German

10:26

for the double walker, which is

10:28

when you see someone who

10:30

looks exactly like you. And

10:33

you have a lot of this mythology

10:35

and lore about doppelgangers across

10:37

different cultures. You have some Egyptian stories,

10:39

you have some Greek stories, and you

10:41

have this particularly in the Western

10:44

world, you have this idea that if you see a doppelganger,

10:47

something bad or ominous is about to happen.

10:50

For example, one of the very famous people

10:52

who claimed to have seen a doppelganger of themselves

10:55

is Abraham Lincoln, who sees a double

10:57

of himself and then is like,

10:59

I'm not going to live through my second term. And

11:02

as we know, he does end up dying before completing

11:04

his second term. So I think what's interesting

11:06

in Mick's case is this happens on a very average,

11:09

normal day to day day. And it doesn't

11:11

really have this connotation of it being

11:13

an omen, but it's no doubt

11:15

extremely creepy. Chris, we often

11:17

talk about the idea of witnessing the impossible.

11:20

Actually seeing your own double feels about as impossible

11:23

as it gets. Well, yeah, it does. The

11:25

thing is, we do know that

11:27

this doppelganger experience is

11:30

real.

11:30

For example, there are certain kind of quite

11:32

rare neurological conditions that

11:35

can lead people to actually

11:38

perceive doubles of themselves.

11:40

In fact, it can be even

11:42

more astounding than that. You can actually

11:44

see multiple versions of yourself.

11:47

One case I was looking at was a

11:50

university professor who returned

11:52

home exhausted and opened the door to find 15

11:55

copies of himself, all

11:57

of different ages, all dressed

12:00

doing different clothes that he used

12:02

to wear in the past but didn't wear anymore. This

12:05

is amazing stuff. There are

12:07

lots of famous cases of doppelgangers.

12:10

One of my favorite stories is of Catherine

12:12

the Great, the Russian Empress.

12:15

She was reclining in her bedroom.

12:17

Her servants came rushing

12:20

in to tell her that how could she

12:22

possibly be there because they've just seen her sitting on the

12:24

throne. Catherine gets

12:26

up, goes to the throne room, sees this

12:29

double of herself that just sits there

12:31

and doesn't say anything. Catherine

12:33

being a fairly assertive and decisive

12:36

woman just told her soldiers to

12:38

get their rifles out and shoot this

12:40

double. We don't know unfortunately what

12:42

happened after that. These are the accounts

12:45

from other people where they genuinely

12:47

have reported that they have had encounters

12:50

with their own doubles. They're spooky. It's

12:52

intriguing. Azania, you mentioned earlier that we

12:54

often talk about the idea

12:56

of doppelgangers being linked to something ominous.

12:59

As you said yourself, this experience feels oddly

13:02

mundane. It's almost as if Mick is just

13:04

seeing himself on an average day in the future.

13:06

One of the theories that definitely comes to mind

13:08

is the idea that this is some kind of time

13:10

slip, which is the sort of idea that there has

13:13

been this bizarre rupture in the

13:15

space-time continuum. You have these two

13:18

moments, one from the past, one from the future,

13:20

happening at the same time, which could explain

13:22

why you have this sort of experience of

13:25

Mick's

13:26

family waving at this car in the

13:28

first instance, which has people looking quite shell-shocked

13:30

and confused as to what they're seeing. In the

13:32

second instance, you have the same thing repeated

13:35

just from the other side. Another

13:37

possible explanation is that maybe

13:39

this is a group of mischievous spirits that

13:41

have decided to impersonate Mick's

13:43

family. There is a lot of precedent

13:46

for that kind of thing in a lot of different cultures.

13:49

In South Asia and Middle Eastern cultures, you'll

13:51

have this idea of jinns

13:52

impersonating people. Christopulganger

13:55

cases normally involve one person seeing themselves.

13:58

Incredibly, we've got three people here. witnessing

14:00

the simultaneously

14:02

but i'm still presuming that as a skeptic you

14:04

don't feel that they are literally seeing themselves

14:07

no i don't think they're actually seen themselves

14:10

if i had to bet money on this

14:12

one i wouldn't explain as being a hallucination

14:15

i think he probably did

14:17

actually see just purely

14:19

coincidental eight a car with a

14:21

found inside that was similar to

14:23

certainly is not impossible to come

14:25

across people that look very very similar

14:28

to oneself for driving the exact

14:30

same car but again i know this

14:32

is the kind of explanation that drives believe

14:34

as round the bend boat the

14:37

nature of coincidences such the

14:39

really unlikely things do

14:41

happen in a with swimming in a sea

14:43

of potential coincidences some

14:45

of them a fairly trivial some of them are pretty

14:48

damn stunning and i think this one is pretty stunning

14:50

or as i keep

14:56

this

14:57

episode is brought to you by progressive

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on ios eight in situations

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like about the all day but

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it is time for us second

15:39

story of this uncanny double

15:41

belts we need to relocate from newcastle

15:44

of the north east of england to the city of coven

15:46

treats in the midlands as we meet

15:48

our second witness a former

15:50

nurse called jen

15:53

adolescent i reacted person i

15:57

wouldn't sit still or this little

15:59

kitten I was shipped an A&E and

16:01

I'd go home, look after my kids.

16:03

So it was very hard to

16:07

go from that to who I am

16:09

now.

16:10

Jen's got long dark hair and glasses. I

16:12

first met her a few weeks ago at one of

16:14

our uncanny live tour shows. She came up

16:17

to me afterwards in

16:19

her wheelchair and said that she had an experience

16:21

that she wanted to tell me about and

16:23

that it had something to do with why she was

16:26

in the chair.

16:26

The reason I'm in the wheelchair is because

16:29

about four years ago I contracted

16:31

meningitis.

16:32

I was in hospital for about three weeks and

16:35

I recovered quite quickly really considering

16:38

how bad it was. About

16:40

three months later I have not been

16:42

feeling good and I remember

16:44

going to bed for a little while, getting up, walking

16:47

to the kitchen and I

16:49

knew I was in trouble. I was shivering,

16:51

I

16:52

couldn't cope with the light being on, my

16:55

left leg hurt a lot and I called an

16:58

ambulance, they came

17:00

out and they were like, okay, we're

17:02

going to take you into hospital. On

17:05

the way to hospital I did hear them say

17:07

to get the team ready because

17:09

they thought I had such a... As a

17:10

nurse you know the implications of that?

17:12

Yeah, so the infection

17:15

in my leg was spreading drastically

17:17

through my body and that means

17:20

that your internal organs will start

17:22

to shut down.

17:23

I mean you can catch sex, they'll be dead

17:25

within two hours. It started

17:28

from just a small cut on Jen's leg but

17:30

the meningitis has led to kick it. They

17:32

did tell me at one point that they thought if

17:35

they could get the infection under control

17:38

that I would lose my left leg.

17:40

I went to have an operation and

17:42

I had signed a form before I went in

17:45

so you need to be in the infection, there's two

17:47

virulence. They had conditions

17:49

to take my left leg. So

17:52

when I woke up I was expecting

17:54

to have no legs there but it is, it's still

17:56

there.

17:58

The doctors had managed to get the infection.

19:46

to

20:00

bed

20:01

that would be enough.

20:03

I wasn't sad, I wasn't

20:06

emotional, I was incredibly calm.

20:09

I just thought you know what people are

20:12

worried about me and I don't

20:14

want them to be worried about me and

20:17

I didn't want to be in somebody that they

20:19

had to look after.

20:21

Jen you say that you didn't feel sad. Looking

20:24

back now in hindsight that feels like a

20:26

horribly sad thing to be saying to yourself.

20:28

Yeah I mean I'm emotional now

20:30

thinking about it

20:32

but at that particular moment it was

20:34

like this is what's this for

20:36

everybody. So I thought off

20:39

of the bad intent on just going down the

20:41

stairs and taking all the tablets and

20:44

my bedroom was at the end of a small

20:46

passageway and I

20:49

turned left to go down the stairs

20:52

and there was someone stood at the bottom

20:55

of my stairs and

20:58

I remember going off because

20:58

you don't expect somebody to be stood

21:01

there and

21:01

it was a woman

21:04

who I was slightly sad on to

21:06

me with long grey hair

21:09

and as I made the noise she

21:12

turned around and looked at me and

21:16

the person who was looking at me was

21:19

me but much older.

21:22

It was my features but Rita

21:24

wrinkled and she had my eyes

21:27

but she was stood

21:30

without a walking stay. She

21:32

stood perfectly straight and

21:36

she just looked at me and smiled

21:39

and she wasn't see-through, she wasn't

21:41

you know transparent or wispy

21:44

or anything. She was so nice and

21:47

I can't even begin to explain

21:49

to you how I felt. I

21:51

was shocked

21:53

but I just looked at her, she looked

21:55

at me, she smiled and

21:58

then she just seemed to fade away.

21:59

were into nothing and there was nothing there.

22:02

One minute she referred and the line

22:05

started to blur

22:06

and she just faded away.

22:10

Jen, the idea of seeing a ghost

22:13

is so strange. The idea

22:15

of seeing a ghost of yourself. I can't

22:18

think of anything stranger.

22:19

I sat at the top of the step and tried to

22:21

make sense of what I'd see and I couldn't.

22:25

So I ran my daughter and I explained

22:28

to her what happened. I said

22:30

I'm shaking. I was crying talking

22:33

to her on the phone and she

22:35

said something to me that totally floored

22:37

me. She was like can you

22:40

imagine how cool one day it will

22:42

be you're an old lady and

22:44

you look up and you see

22:46

yourself younger and that

22:49

was like well I hope

22:51

it happens. She gave

22:53

me that incentive to

22:56

not give in. When I told

22:58

my daughter what I was planning to do she was like

23:00

why didn't you call me if

23:03

you were that unhappy and

23:05

I was like because you'd

23:07

have stopped me and

23:09

I didn't want to be stopped.

23:11

It took you yourself to stop you.

23:14

Yes,

23:15

it took

23:17

that old lady looking up and smiling

23:19

at me to make me so

23:21

you know what you've always

23:23

been a fighter Jen so why

23:26

are you giving in now?

23:27

When you think back to that moment how

23:30

do you feel?

23:31

I'm grateful because I wouldn't

23:33

have been here otherwise. I wouldn't have

23:36

the life I've got now because

23:38

my life is

23:40

pretty good now. It really is.

23:44

And yeah I don't think I'm ever

23:46

going to be 100% how

23:48

I was before but that doesn't

23:50

mean I can't be 80%

23:53

and

23:53

I'll settle for 80%. I'm

24:00

back with Chris and Azania, such

24:02

a poignant story and thank you so much to Jen, who

24:05

I feel is incredibly brave in sharing this. We're

24:07

so glad that it happened and so glad that she is still

24:09

here with us. Azania, do you feel

24:11

that this is another doppelganger case? I

24:13

wouldn't necessarily

24:14

say so, Dani, because when

24:16

you look at the way you describe that

24:19

sort of doppelganger experience, it's

24:21

very much seeing a double of yourself

24:23

as you are in that particular minute.

24:26

And it's a reflection, it's not common

24:28

to have this sort of an extended interaction

24:31

with them. What I'd say is

24:33

Jen seeing something that feels quite

24:35

like a ghost but from the future. It

24:37

feels really the consent, it reminds me of

24:39

Scrooge in A Christmas Carol and having

24:42

this sort of experience where your

24:44

own future self is coming back and

24:46

giving you some sort of guidance

24:49

on how the path you will take at this moment

24:51

will determine what the future looks

24:53

like.

24:54

Chris, we talk about the experiences that

24:56

people describe on Uncanny being life-changing.

24:59

This is that in its purest form. Well yeah,

25:01

I mean how much more life-changing can you get

25:04

than an experience which actually prevents

25:06

someone from taking their own life and

25:08

they're still thankfully with us and

25:11

things have turned out really well for Jen? As

25:13

a sceptic I'm imagining this is one encounter that

25:15

you almost don't want to explain the way.

25:17

I think actually you can explain it and still

25:19

accept it as being a wonderful positive thing.

25:22

To describe yourself has been very very calm

25:24

while all this is happening and

25:27

it reminded me of the kind of state

25:29

of mind that people report sometimes with near-death

25:31

experiences where they're in life-threatening

25:33

situations but they suddenly feel very

25:36

very calm and it's

25:38

basically it's what we'd call a dissociated state

25:41

and I think that's what we've got here. We've got

25:43

someone who under extreme

25:46

emotional stress has gone into this calm

25:48

dissociated state and is then having

25:50

a hallucinatory experience and the

25:53

hallucination that she has interestingly

25:55

it's not of her as she

25:57

is now it's of her as she thinks she will

25:59

be in the future and basically the message

26:02

from her own mind is don't

26:05

give up, you have got a future ahead of

26:07

you. I mean skeptics are often accused

26:09

of trying to take the magic out of the

26:11

world, you know, unweaving the rainbow

26:14

as it's been referred to. But actually no

26:16

that's not the case. I think what we can see here

26:18

is that often we don't need the

26:20

paranormal, our own minds can

26:22

generate those kind of beautiful moments. Zania,

26:25

if we are looking at this from a paranormal perspective,

26:28

it certainly feels like an intervention. Where

26:31

is that intervention coming from?

26:32

So within the ideas of paranormality,

26:34

you know, we have this notion of a crisis

26:37

apparition, which is an apparition of someone

26:39

who at their moment of death appears maybe

26:41

thousands of miles away, maybe in a soldier who's

26:43

just died on the battlefield, appears to their family.

26:46

I think what we're seeing here is a bit of a strange flip

26:48

on that, that we see an apparition coming

26:51

to prevent that moment of death from taking place.

26:53

And I think it also does speak

26:55

a lot to the kind of person that Jen

26:58

is. Like from what we've heard, she's been

27:00

extremely independent, she's been very

27:02

self-sufficient. And that's part

27:04

of the reason why being in this position

27:06

is so terrifying for her. She doesn't

27:08

want to be dependent on others. And perhaps

27:11

that also tells us that the only

27:13

ghost she would listen to is herself.

27:16

And we often talk about ghosts being

27:18

a productive grief. And this is

27:20

a ghost of grief, just the grief of

27:23

her life as it used to be and what it may look

27:25

like now.

27:28

Thank you to Chris and Azani. I'm really interested

27:31

in thoughts there. And thank you also to our

27:33

witnesses, Mick and Jen. I've

27:36

said it before, but I think it takes guts to

27:38

tell these stories.

27:39

It can be scary to fear ghosts. It

27:41

can be a whole lot scarier sometimes telling

27:44

people that you've seen one, the fear of

27:46

judgment, of how you will be perceived.

27:49

So many people who email me tell

27:51

me that they have never really told

27:53

anybody before about what happened to them.

27:55

Sometimes not even their own partner. So

27:58

thank you to all of them. of you listening

28:00

right now, the Uncanny community, for

28:03

helping to create this safe space where

28:05

we can listen to these stories with

28:08

the rarest of things in our

28:10

current times, an open

28:12

mind. If you have an experience

28:15

you would like to tell me about, email uncanny

28:17

at bbc.co.uk or find

28:20

me, Danny Robbins, on social media. We

28:22

are currently looking for stories for

28:24

our next Uncanny series. It doesn't

28:27

have to be a ghost. It could be a UFO encounter

28:29

or anything strange and inexplicable.

28:32

I would love to hear from you. Thank you

28:34

also for all of your emails this series on all our

28:36

recent cases. Loads of great questions

28:39

and theories coming in. Next time on Uncanny,

28:41

we will update on a few interesting developments,

28:43

a few bits of new evidence, and

28:45

we also have another

28:48

brand new case to investigate. And

28:50

spoiler alert, it

28:52

is a creepy one. Something

28:55

told me that whatever it was was upstairs

28:58

and I ran up those stairs two at a time into

29:01

my son's room

29:03

and I picked him out of his cot and

29:05

all of a sudden the door just slammed

29:08

behind me. I just, it's

29:10

here, it's in the room. I

29:25

just would take my glasses

29:27

off and execution would start.

29:46

Can you imagine your job being

29:48

to help legally kill people? That's

29:50

a hell of a thing to watch a man die. I'm

29:54

Livvy Hadock and I once heard the

29:56

wildest story about how the

29:58

USA ran short.

29:59

I had to find

30:02

them in the UK. Drugs

30:04

used in some of the executions are supplied

30:07

by a British businessman. That got

30:09

me digging into what Death Row

30:11

looks like now. Well they all died. Nobody

30:14

complained. And what might happen to

30:16

it in the future.

30:18

This is Killing Death Row from

30:20

BBC Radio 4 with me,

30:22

Livvy Haydock. Listen

30:25

for BBC Sounds.

30:31

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