0:00

A warning to our listeners. This series

0:02

contains discussion of mental illness, suicide,

0:05

and domestic abuse.

0:08

Lisa

0:10

got adopted, and then I can't

0:13

remember the boy's name, but he got adopted soon

0:15

after as well. There was also a son.

0:17

There was also a son. Adoption

0:21

records are pretty tricky to get ahold of, especially

0:23

in the UK. There's an adoption

0:25

registry in the UK. If we put Lisa on

0:27

that registry as an adopted child, then if

0:30

he's on there too, they might be able to connect to

0:32

them.

0:32

Y'all,

0:36

I just got an email from Lisa. Oh, what

0:38

did it say? Oh my God, okay. It's actually

0:40

just a forward from the adoption registry office,

0:43

and it just says, Dear Ms. Mead, I

0:45

can confirm that a link has

0:47

been made with Clifford Perkins, who

0:49

registered a wish for contact. We have

0:51

sent an inquiry letter to Clifford to the address

0:54

he supplied in 2017 to see

0:56

if it is still current. If we receive a reply,

0:58

we will inform you immediately.

1:00

I really don't believe

1:02

she killed herself. She was there one day, and

1:04

then all of a sudden she didn't show up. Have we uncovered

1:06

a conspiracy indirectly? Too many unanswered

1:09

questions. She was scared to death. She was

1:11

alive after they said she was

1:13

dead. All

1:19

right,

1:19

we've been working on this for quite a while, and

1:22

it's been a minute since we've done a bullet

1:24

point check-in of what we actually know. So

1:27

I'm thinking what we should do today is

1:29

lay out the facts we have and see

1:31

what else we can clarify at this point. Okay,

1:34

so here's what we know. Susan

1:36

Pat Perkins was born in Salisbury on September

1:39

13th, 1952. At some

1:41

point, her family moved to Kirby, Lasokan. Her

1:43

parents split up, and when she was 11, her

1:46

brother Stuart was born. Fast forward

1:48

to 1970,

1:49

we now know that just after her 18th

1:52

birthday, she gave birth to a son named

1:54

Clifford. She then married

1:56

Kevin at 19 years old, had Lisa

1:58

at 20, and not long after...

1:59

After she and Kevin split up and

2:02

Lisa was adopted by Kevin's sister and

2:04

brother-in-law. A few years later,

2:06

she met Natchuk who was in the American military

2:09

at an off-base party. They dated

2:11

and lived together for about a year and

2:13

when his service was up, he asked her to come back

2:15

to the states with him. They moved to upstate

2:18

New York and got married in 1976, but

2:20

they broke up not too long after that. And

2:23

she lived and worked in New York state for the next few years.

2:25

And this is where it gets a bit fuzzy. Why

2:28

did you come to Athens in all places? People

2:31

don't just show up to East

2:33

Texas. Coben was a truck driver.

2:36

Sue said she met him up

2:38

in New York at a truck stop and

2:40

he gave her a ride and she came all the way to Texas

2:43

with him.

2:45

Okay, get this. Someone with a family

2:47

connection to Larry Coben heard

2:49

his name on this podcast and reached

2:51

out to say that they remember

2:54

Larry having a British wife named Susan

2:56

who was a heavy smoker and that

2:58

they think he met her in New York

3:01

and brought her back to Athens while he was working as

3:03

a truck driver, which seems to fit with

3:05

Tony's memory.

3:06

So I don't know if we want to call this mystery solved

3:09

necessarily, but it is always interesting

3:11

when we hear the same thing twice. And

3:13

I did check with Tony about the timeline of it all

3:16

and he said 1979 was more of a guesstimate.

3:18

It definitely could have been as late as 1982.

3:21

From there, she lived in Athens for the rest of

3:23

her life. And there are some details

3:25

we haven't been able to nail down like that hospital

3:28

job, but the big swings during her time

3:30

in Athens are that she married Larry

3:32

Coben and then Steve Knight. She dated

3:34

Steve de Villiers, Tony McConnell, and Dale

3:36

Jolliff. In 1984,

3:39

she moved into the house she lived in for the rest of her

3:41

life. She worked at the Elder Car dealership

3:43

from about 1985 to 1994. And

3:47

she worked at the McGill Freight car dealership from

3:49

about 1995 until April of 96 when

3:52

she passed away at the age of 43.

3:54

And then, of course, there

3:56

are all the things that Sue apparently told

3:59

people that don't call. quite line up. One

4:01

of the things she told me was she

4:04

worked in New York City. And she said, Pat,

4:06

I left at noon one day and never

4:08

went back. And nobody there ever

4:11

knew what happened to her.

4:14

First of all, we know that she lived in upstate

4:16

New York, not New York City. And she

4:19

might have left New York very quickly, but

4:21

we know she kept in touch with Notchuck after she

4:23

left. So she didn't completely disappear.

4:25

She told me she got relocated

4:28

to the United States because the family

4:30

that she was married into was part of royalty.

4:35

So the two husbands that Sue could have been

4:37

referring to here are Lisa's dad or Notchuck.

4:41

And neither of them have any royal connections

4:43

that they know of.

4:44

There is also the story that she told one

4:46

of her friends about how she had to leave the UK

4:49

because she witnessed her stepfather kill her mother.

4:51

Yeah, but we know for a fact that her mother died of cancer.

4:54

And that was years after Sue moved to the US. And

4:57

I actually asked Stuart about this recently too.

4:59

No, Harry was

5:01

the most caring man ever. My

5:04

stepdad didn't murder my

5:06

mom.

5:08

There's also the witness protection theory. She

5:11

told me they deported me to the United States and

5:13

gave me a witness relocation program.

5:17

Which our former US Marshal pretty

5:19

much debunked. There's still the possibility

5:21

that she was using the term as shorthand for

5:24

a sort of self-imposed witness protection.

5:27

But that's something we couldn't know for sure unless she

5:29

told us herself. And it's still not clear

5:31

what exactly she would have been running from.

5:33

There's enough of these kinds of stories that

5:35

we have third hand here, say your honor.

5:39

Do we believe that Sue actually

5:41

did make up these melodramatic things about herself?

5:43

Or do we think other people made

5:45

them up and put them in her mouth? I

5:48

do actually think they came from Sue.

5:51

I guess it's possible she might have been kidding.

5:54

But honestly, everyone who told us one of these stories

5:57

was really close to her and they said... that

6:00

she told them in earnest. Like, they did

6:02

not get the idea that she was kidding or lying

6:04

in any way. There's also the IRA

6:07

theory. When I last spoke to Stewart,

6:09

her brother, he did clarify where this idea

6:11

of their dad living in Northern Ireland

6:13

came from.

6:14

I'm gonna say that came from

6:16

my mum. She said that he was

6:19

in Northern Ireland. He lived in Belfast

6:21

or he was there for a time.

6:24

But again, this is one of the only threads we have

6:26

to connect Sue to the IRA, and it's

6:29

pretty tenuous. Right. Plus, we've also

6:31

recently spoken with some people who knew her dad and

6:33

they told us that he settled down again and lived

6:35

with his family in England for the rest of his life. So

6:38

to me, that suggests he wasn't running from anything.

6:41

Agreed. Plus, we have no evidence that Sue

6:43

was ever in contact with him after he moved away.

6:45

The

6:46

other thread in this theory is the steak knife

6:48

connection. But really the only link

6:51

there is the notebook Steve says he found where

6:53

Sue wrote steak knife on the back. So

6:55

I don't know that we can 100% rule this one out, but

6:58

at this point, it feels pretty unlikely.

7:00

There are all the little things that we have been able

7:03

to shed some light on. For example, the specialized

7:05

guns that Sue had, she used them for competition

7:08

shooting. Dr. Barnhart, the medical

7:10

examiner we spoke to was able to explain the discrepancies

7:13

around the timeline of her death. With

7:15

the computers, whether or not the light stemmed

7:17

or came on or not, a power surge

7:19

still feels like one of the only ways the computers

7:21

could have come on by themselves. And

7:24

the data could have been lost because of a crash instead of

7:26

a wipe. The teddy bears that were strewn

7:28

around her house were something that she did as a hobby,

7:30

either to sell or to give away to her friends. All

7:33

of the names we have on her paperwork or have

7:35

heard about being on her IDs can all

7:37

be tied back to a marriage or a divorce. And

7:40

we've only found one social security number

7:42

that she used on paperwork from the time she entered

7:45

the country to her death.

7:47

And there are some things that we haven't been able to fully

7:49

explain, like what color her

7:51

hair was. Can I just say as someone

7:53

with dirty blonde hair, I think all of the colors

7:55

we've heard people use to describe Sue's hair,

7:58

I have also heard people use to describe

7:59

So I think this might just be a perception

8:02

thing. I agree. It really feels

8:04

like a perception thing to me too. Sort

8:06

of like how some people said she looked plain, others

8:09

said she was really beautiful, some said

8:11

she was really cold and rough around the edges, others

8:14

said she was super generous and friendly. So

8:16

I think it all reflects back on each person's

8:18

perspective.

8:19

Yeah, the pictures we have of her sort of support that

8:21

too. She looks blonde, brunette,

8:24

even a little red-headed, depending on the lighting. Plus,

8:26

I found a line item for a hair appointment in her

8:29

ledger that says blonde next to it. So

8:31

it could have just been a timing thing.

8:33

There's also the question of the pills Steve

8:35

says he found in Sue's house. Yeah.

8:38

So we know a good many pill bottles were

8:40

confiscated from her home, some

8:42

of which had pills left and some of which were empty.

8:45

When we asked Steve about the bottles he found in her house,

8:47

he varies on whether they were empty or not. But

8:50

regardless, I'm still not sure why the

8:52

authorities would have left some bottles and taken

8:54

others. I did actually learn something new

8:57

about this. Not all items are taken

8:59

from the scene of death. And there are other ways

9:01

of documenting evidence, like photographs

9:03

or reports, which in this case

9:05

may have been lost to time if they ever existed. Typically,

9:07

items taken from the scene should be potential

9:10

evidence related to the death or

9:12

items that could be illegally distributed if they

9:14

fell into the wrong hands.

9:15

But the pills weren't the only things that were supposedly

9:18

confiscated. Steve also told

9:20

us the police took the guns and a box of sexual

9:22

paraphernalia, but we don't have any

9:24

records to verify that.

9:26

We know the police took some items from Sue's

9:28

house. We just don't know what. The guns

9:30

make sense to confiscate as an attempt to secure the house,

9:33

but

9:33

I can't think of a reason they'd take personal items.

9:36

Texas has some quote-unquote obscenity

9:38

statutes, which may or may not have been relevant

9:40

in this case. But regardless,

9:42

since the Athens PD declined to be interviewed, we

9:44

can't verify anything about this really.

9:47

And then there's the whiskey on the nightstand

9:49

and the wine glass with lipstick in the computer

9:51

room. In my mind, I

9:53

can see a picture

9:56

of her bedroom with the pill bottle

9:58

and a bottle of whiskey.

9:59

whiskey on her napstand. I

10:02

never knew I'd drink wine, and she

10:04

didn't wear lipstick. It was a glass

10:07

with a little bit of wine in it and lipstick on

10:09

it.

10:12

I just don't think we'll ever know about the whiskey

10:14

for sure without any scene photos. Same

10:16

with the wine glass. That's a detail that only exists

10:19

in Steve de Villiers' memory, and there's no

10:21

way to prove or disprove it.

10:23

I do think if there was alcohol there, that's

10:25

at the very least a big shift

10:27

in behavior on Sue's part, since

10:30

I think it's a pretty reliable piece

10:32

of information that she didn't drink very much,

10:34

since so many people have told us that. But

10:37

I

10:38

don't have a good explanation for this, unfortunately.

10:40

I will say, Steve de Villiers said that he found

10:43

it suspicious because she didn't drink wine

10:45

and she didn't wear lipstick. But we

10:47

have heard differently from

10:48

others. She drank very

10:50

little. Every once in a while she'd have a glass of wine.

10:53

I seem to recall her wearing a lot of makeup. That

10:55

could be wrong.

10:58

So there is a world in which she just decided

11:00

to put on makeup and have a glass of wine. Although,

11:04

again, there was no alcohol present in her autopsy. Last

11:06

thing

11:07

in this vein, I personally still

11:10

can't get over the phone calls. The

11:12

CIA phone calls to Steve and Sue's ex-boyfriend Mike, and

11:17

even more so the phone call that Sue's

11:19

coworker received after Sue died. After speaking

11:21

to our experts,

11:22

I do agree that it

11:24

wasn't a CIA officer calling. But I still can't explain who it was

11:26

or why.

11:28

Same with the supposed call from Sue.

11:30

I believe she truly was dead by that point.

11:32

But I just don't

11:34

understand what that call really was. Yeah,

11:37

the phone calls are weird. The CIA

11:39

phone call that her ex-boyfriend Mike Buckley

11:41

supposedly received after her death, we

11:43

just haven't been able to get in touch with him to verify

11:45

that it actually happened. As far as the call

11:47

that Sue's coworker received,

11:49

the This Is Sue I'm Okay call, Pat

11:52

is the one who told us about it, but he heard about it

11:54

secondhand, and the person who actually received the call

11:56

was the one who told us about it.

11:59

doesn't remember that call happening.

12:02

We did check with Pat about this, and he said

12:04

he wasn't surprised because the call meant more

12:06

to him than it did to the person who received

12:08

it. They just kind of thought it was a spam

12:11

call. And Pat says it

12:13

doesn't change anything for him. He still

12:15

has a clear memory of this happening.

12:17

["I'm Not Gonna Give You Up"]

12:22

It seems like the other thing we know about her is

12:24

that she is intriguing to people. And

12:26

I suppose maybe just because she's

12:29

speaking with a British accent in a small town in Texas,

12:32

but I suspect it's a little bit more than that. There's

12:34

something about her that

12:37

made this impression on people and have

12:39

them talking about her decades after

12:41

she's gunned. It doesn't happen to a lot of people.

12:44

Yeah, and honestly, a lot

12:46

of people. Like, it's

12:48

not just one or two here and there. It's,

12:51

we've talked to a lot of people, and they've

12:53

all remembered her and had

12:55

something to say and had questions and

12:57

wondered about her and thought about her and

12:59

missed her. Which

13:01

feels pretty important and kind of extraordinary,

13:04

especially for someone who basically restarted

13:07

their life halfway through

13:09

and again a few years

13:12

later. And it's

13:14

so hard to sort of lay out the facts because

13:16

they

13:18

don't feel... Honestly,

13:21

they just don't feel as important to me as

13:24

some of the impressions that we've gotten

13:26

over time. Do you know? I guess one of

13:28

the questions I have,

13:30

if we're saying that sort of a life is not measured necessarily

13:33

by the facts or that's not the best determination for

13:35

who someone was was the facts of their life, I

13:37

guess I'm wondering,

13:40

does the idea of Sue being a super spy assassin

13:42

feel truer to who Sue was than

13:45

the things that we've learned, do you think? I really

13:47

go back and forth. I really go back and

13:49

forth on who I think she actually... Like what

13:51

I think the actual story is. It's

13:54

hard for me to believe that she was some sort

13:56

of super spy or assassin, but

13:58

it's also really hard to compare.

13:59

completely let go of. I think it's like

14:02

the tiniest sliver of possibility.

14:06

So I don't think it's fair to be like,

14:09

but maybe, do you know what I mean?

14:12

That feels a little too extreme.

14:17

My personal feelings today on

14:19

this day is that she was

14:22

just a person who spent

14:25

a good portion of her life trying

14:28

to figure out what she wanted that life to look like.

14:30

I think she was a smart,

14:33

capable woman who

14:36

wanted to forge her own path and

14:39

succeeded for a long time. And

14:42

then maybe

14:44

that path ended unexpectedly

14:48

or maybe it got

14:50

too hard for her to keep going. And

14:53

the thing that I keep thinking about is again, something

14:55

that Tony said, which is I think

14:58

she was looking for something and I'm not sure that she ever

15:00

found it, but I hope

15:01

she at least enjoyed some moments. And

15:04

that feels really true. That feels

15:06

really true to me.

15:09

So yeah, I do think that she was,

15:12

I kind of don't wanna say that I think that

15:14

she was just a regular person because I do think there was

15:16

something really extraordinary about her.

15:19

And I think that's something that she cultivated,

15:23

right? She wanted people to think of her that way, which

15:25

is, which

15:28

just makes me love her.

15:29

But I do think that she was a person

15:32

in the world not

15:35

involved in something large and

15:37

massive and scary and clandestine.

15:40

And she loved

15:43

people and was loved by people and

15:47

died tragically. In

15:49

terms of what feels more like Sue,

15:53

it might actually be more appropriate to continue

15:56

to think of her as a potential super spy. Like

15:58

that seems closer to maybe what she-

15:59

That's just, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking

16:02

about that, but that's just,

16:04

it came into my head that like maybe she would want us to

16:07

think of her as

16:09

Carmen Sandiega, woman on the run. I

16:13

do think she'd get a kick out of that for sure. I

16:16

think too, thinking about who she was,

16:18

every single time we've

16:20

talked to a person, they've

16:22

had a clear image of who she

16:25

was and what she was like. Sometimes

16:27

they're the same, sometimes they're vastly different, but

16:30

it almost feels a little bit like Sue's this prism, and

16:33

depending on how the light shines, you get a different color,

16:36

you get a different shape, you get a different perspective.

16:40

And we all have many versions of ourself, of course, but

16:43

I do think that was a part of her is that

16:46

she wanted different people to see

16:48

her in a different way and wanted different people to know different

16:51

parts of herself. Yeah,

16:53

and Tony

16:54

actually talked about that, right? He said

16:56

that she was the kind of person who could throw on a

16:59

T-shirt and cut offs and go on a drive

17:02

on a motorcycle with you, or she

17:04

could put on a suit and go to a business meeting the

17:07

next morning. She could sort of fit

17:09

in wherever she needed to fit in.

17:11

Jenna, when I heard you say what Sue

17:14

would have wanted, that's the

17:16

first time I actually crossed that mental

17:18

threshold in this story. You know, like

17:20

we've been looking at what all these other people want

17:23

Sue to be. But if

17:25

we had to say, okay, Sue, sitting here in this chair,

17:27

how do you want us to think of you? Oh,

17:30

I think that's a lot less clear. If we have to go

17:32

just to her own words, right? And

17:35

just what we know directly from her, that's pretty slim pickings, right?

17:38

We have some of her poems, and

17:41

we have the note that she wrote. And

17:45

that's, I mean, that's pretty much it.

17:47

That's such an upsetting thing to consider when you realize

17:49

that the only things we really have

17:52

in her own words are writings about how sad

17:54

she was. and

18:00

how hard her life was. Like, that's really hard

18:03

to stomach. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

18:06

See, this all to me just leads me back to the thing

18:09

that's most important. If we don't

18:11

really have any of her own words

18:13

or we have very little and we can't

18:15

be sure

18:17

of all the facts, then I

18:20

think it all comes down to how people felt about

18:22

her.

18:22

Whether she was a super spy or not,

18:25

people loved her. Whether she was a member

18:28

of the IRA or not, she

18:31

left an impression. Like that to me,

18:33

I just keep sort of coming back to, I don't

18:36

think that it's fair to her to

18:39

try and narrow down her life to

18:41

the things we have records for and the tangible

18:43

facts that we have and even the things

18:46

that we have in

18:47

her own words. Because

18:52

what else is there when you're gone besides the

18:54

memories that all the people in her life have, the impressions

18:56

that you left? Like that's it. That's it to

18:59

me.

19:04

During this process,

19:07

a lot of it has been calling people

19:09

that we hope have some connection to

19:11

Sue. And so there was a period

19:13

of time where I was just calling everybody in Sue's address

19:16

book just hoping that we would

19:18

hit somebody that knew her. And

19:22

I ended up calling this woman who

19:24

ended up being, essentially, Sue's

19:26

best friend or one of her best

19:28

friends. And I basically said, hi,

19:31

I'm Hailey. And I'm

19:34

looking into the life of this woman named

19:36

Sue Knight. Do you happen to know her? And

19:39

she just responded with like

19:41

immediate tears

19:44

and just was like, oh my

19:46

God, Sue, I haven't heard that name in so long.

19:48

And it was just really, really

19:51

emotional and just talked about how much she loved her friend

19:53

and missed her friend and how nobody

19:56

had talked about her friend for such a long

19:58

time. And I didn't. know it at

20:00

the time, but

20:02

at the end of our call, you know, she was like, I'd

20:05

love to talk to you all.

20:07

I'm in the hospital. And,

20:09

you know, this was during COVID. And

20:13

she was like, yeah, I'm in the hospital right now.

20:17

Later, when I followed up with her, she had

20:20

passed away. And so, you

20:23

know, that call was sort

20:24

of on her

20:26

deathbed, that she just really

20:28

missed her friend and wanted to talk

20:30

about her friend.

20:30

And I think that's just so significant about

20:34

what happens when the people we love die,

20:37

you know, at some point, they just kind of, you

20:39

don't get to talk about them anymore. And yeah,

20:41

I don't know.

20:43

Yeah. And that seems to be true

20:46

for just about everyone. All of these people were just

20:48

living with this on their own. And

20:52

what a hard thing to lose someone so unexpectedly

20:55

and not be able to

20:57

not be able

20:59

to process it. That's

21:01

so hard. And I'm, I'm really glad that

21:03

some of them have been able to reach out to each other like

21:06

that, that feels important.

21:09

Oh, I think there's a huge value

21:12

in having people come together,

21:15

talk about what happened and share

21:18

their thoughts and feelings.

21:20

I think that can make a big difference in how

21:22

people end up feeling. My

21:25

name is Yvette Shalene. I'm a professor

21:28

of psychiatry, radiology and

21:30

neurology at University of Pennsylvania

21:32

School of Medicine.

21:34

I've been studying depression

21:37

for my entire career. Could

21:39

you talk about some of the

21:41

risk factors for depression? In

21:43

the broadest context, stress

21:47

from whatever source is a huge

21:49

risk factor. And if you study epidemiologically,

21:52

when

21:52

people get depression, it's at

21:55

least half the time it's preceded by

21:57

a significant stressor in their life. something

22:00

has gone wrong in a relationship

22:02

or with employment or with their

22:04

family, some other source of stress.

22:07

She died right before a lot of her bills were due, which

22:10

if you're already behind on paying your bills, that's

22:12

just overwhelming. Also, looking

22:15

at the date of her death between April 8th

22:17

and 11th, her 20th wedding anniversary

22:19

with Nachuk would have been on April 9th.

22:22

And just a few weeks earlier would have been not only

22:24

the 20th anniversary of her leaving the UK,

22:27

but also the 15th anniversary

22:29

of her mother's

22:29

death. And

22:33

then the other flip side of that is

22:35

the genetic side. And

22:38

there's a big family history

22:40

component of who gets depression.

22:41

In the family, there has

22:44

been mental health. I mean, my mum

22:46

had postnatal depression. I've gone through

22:48

a bit of depression.

22:50

And of the symptoms of major

22:52

depression, one of them is thinking about

22:55

suicide. If they start to talk

22:57

more about death or saying that their

22:59

life has lost its meaning,

23:01

that they have nothing to live for, wanting

23:04

to talk about their will

23:06

or just talking about how

23:08

they don't care about anything anymore, nothing

23:11

matters to them. Those would be really

23:13

significant warning signs.

23:16

I wanted to ask you about, I know that we sent

23:18

you a transcript of that note that she wrote,

23:20

and I was curious what your thoughts are. I

23:23

think it's kind of classic for somebody

23:25

who

23:26

has gone beyond where they feel

23:28

bad. You know, she says, she's

23:30

not miserable. She's not desolate.

23:33

I'm just tired of hanging on. You

23:35

don't have to feel like terribly,

23:38

terribly sad as part

23:40

of contemplating suicide. It can just

23:43

be that you don't care anymore.

23:45

You've gone beyond caring. Do

23:48

you feel like the timeframe between

23:51

writing this note and her actually

23:54

dying, that eight months, has

23:56

any bearing on

23:58

those feelings necessarily? Well, I think

24:00

we don't know what she was feeling when she died because

24:03

she didn't write anything or talk to anybody about

24:05

it. But the fact that she wrote it out

24:07

really quite eloquently, I think

24:10

lets us assume that had

24:12

she put pen to paper right

24:14

before she died, she might have written something very

24:16

similar.

24:17

One of the things I want to say and then

24:20

probably repeat again, there is no

24:22

harm in asking somebody

24:25

if they're thinking about suicide,

24:26

no harm. In

24:28

fact, there's a huge benefit because what if somebody's

24:31

been bottling it up? If you ask

24:33

them, they can then share

24:36

that they've been feeling really hopeless and

24:39

feeling like they wanna

24:42

go ahead and make a plan.

24:44

It's life-saving to

24:47

know that somebody's thinking about it because

24:50

people almost always change their minds

24:52

if given an opportunity to be safe

24:54

for a while. I'm

25:00

Beverly Ross. I am a counselor

25:03

along with executive director for

25:05

Nonprofit Counseling Center in Wise

25:07

County. And I have been in counseling

25:10

for, I'm gonna guess, 22 years.

25:12

Would

25:15

you say that there is sort

25:17

of a societal stigma around

25:20

suicide and also depression in

25:23

Texas specifically? Yes,

25:25

I think there's stigma. I feel like I need to do a

25:27

disclosure here that I've never lived anywhere

25:30

else. I know Texas. Wear a pull

25:32

yourself up by your bootstraps.

25:34

Let's get up. You can choose

25:37

joy, choose joy, choose joy. I

25:39

like that concept, except

25:42

I don't think it's as simple as making a choice. I

25:45

think suicide can bring on a lot of shame

25:47

and a lot of complicated feelings for the people

25:50

around, maybe that missed the

25:52

signs

25:53

or maybe that saw them clearly and denied

25:56

them. So many people have told

25:58

us that she seemed really... free-spirited

26:01

and bubbly and happy

26:03

and fun to be around.

26:05

And a lot of people, I think, have had a hard time

26:08

accepting that this might have been the case. You

26:11

know, I think part of our innate

26:14

desire, part of our human wiring,

26:17

is to want to control our environment. And

26:19

so we want things to be logical

26:21

and to make sense. I have

26:23

never heard

26:24

of a suicide that

26:27

was 1% logical or 1%

26:30

made sense. But

26:32

the guilt and the shame that

26:34

are left with the friends and the family,

26:36

the people who loved when it's over,

26:39

of

26:39

why didn't I?

26:42

But sometimes we just have to go, I couldn't

26:44

do anything.

26:46

I'm not saying this was definitely a suicide,

26:48

but that is not unusual to have somebody

26:51

that gave no signs. They just

26:53

didn't disclose. So

26:55

there's a stigma that goes with their family

26:58

of, I bet they knew or I bet this happened. We

27:00

complete a story that we don't know.

27:03

Whenever we're not told the whole story,

27:05

our brains go ahead and make up the rest of the story.

27:08

It's just, that's my television is so

27:10

popular. That's my movies, novels.

27:13

We love stories. And when

27:15

we don't know how she died or what she was thinking,

27:18

we make up scenarios that

27:20

are easier for us

27:22

to digest and accept ourselves. There's

27:25

a lot of mystery to this thing called life.

27:27

And there's going to be a lot of things I can't figure

27:30

out, particularly this. And I've

27:32

got to learn to live in the mystery

27:34

and in the unknown.

27:37

I mean, we all want to avoid grief if

27:39

we can, right? And so

27:41

I think that's just one coping

27:44

mechanism to deal with it. People

27:47

who survive suicide of a loved

27:49

one are a particularly vulnerable

27:52

category of survivors. Because

27:55

almost always there's some element

27:58

of guilt about... things

28:00

they could have, should have done, said, the

28:03

last tasks they should have done together. We

28:05

talk in our culture about, quote, getting

28:08

over things like a suicide.

28:10

But it isn't something you get over. It's something

28:13

that you live with for the rest of your life. And

28:16

that's normal.

28:26

Personally, after talking with everyone we've

28:29

talked to, I think suicide

28:32

is a very, very

28:34

real

28:35

possibility. The poem she wrote,

28:38

the note she wrote several months before,

28:40

the bills, the anniversaries,

28:43

being alone, being sick, I

28:46

do think, sadly, that there's

28:49

a lot that lines up there. Yeah. I

28:52

can't say for certain. I can't say

28:54

absolutely, yes, that definitely happened,

28:58

which is hard, like everything in this.

29:00

Yeah, it really is. And I mean,

29:02

that uncertainty is why

29:04

I personally still think undetermined is

29:06

the most appropriate answer. I

29:09

just wish we

29:11

knew for sure. But ultimately,

29:14

it's not our decision to make.

29:15

Yeah. I will say I did hear

29:18

back from Dr. Pralo, the doctor who

29:20

performed Sue's autopsy. He

29:22

said he didn't remember everything that went into

29:24

this particular manner of death ruling, but

29:26

that he's always happy to learn of new information,

29:29

and that it was perfectly acceptable to amend a manner

29:31

of death ruling if new evidence surfaces later

29:33

on. I also sent the information we learned

29:35

from the medical examiner and the toxicologist

29:38

to the Justice of the Peace. If there

29:40

is enough here to reopen the inquest, the JP

29:42

would be the one to do it. So I gave him

29:44

the information we had,

29:45

and we'll see if anything comes of that.

29:53

Jenna, have you heard anything from Lisa? Yes,

29:56

she just emailed me this morning, actually. She

29:58

said that she got a message from...

29:59

from her brother Clifford, whose name is Danny

30:02

now, and they've got their first phone

30:04

call scheduled for tomorrow. She said she is

30:06

over the moon about it. Oh my gosh,

30:08

that's so exciting. I can't believe he was just

30:10

like waiting for her. That's so sweet.

30:13

I know, I was thinking we could catch up

30:15

with her later this week. I know we have

30:17

a bunch of stuff on our end to share, and

30:20

actually I'd love to share it with Stuart as well. Maybe

30:22

we can find some time with the both of them.

30:24

Hello there. Hello

30:27

there. Hello. That's

30:29

good to be

30:30

here again, Stuart. Lisa's not here. She

30:32

was waiting. I'll give

30:34

her a quick text, tell her to get her ass in here. I mean... Can

30:37

you hear

30:38

me now? Yes, we can. Oh.

30:41

That worked, Stuart. Am I on camera? I've

30:44

got no idea. OK,

30:46

so you should have a microphone and

30:48

a camera there. Her host has asked

30:50

you to start your video. OK. You

30:54

can laugh. This is going

30:56

to be fun. This is going to be fun. So

30:59

I had an email from the adoption agency saying

31:01

that we forwarded

31:03

your details on to Clifford. Within

31:06

two hours, I had a message request

31:08

from Danny. And Danny is who Clifford was at birth. And

31:12

we actually spoke the following

31:14

day for about 25 minutes on the phone. He's

31:17

always known he was adopted. And he's

31:19

got his adoption record. So

31:22

it's got like a description of our mum. I have

31:24

pinged in photos that you guys have like pinged to

31:26

me. And

31:29

he was like, oh, wow, you look

31:31

just like our mum. He always said that

31:33

he had two birthdays, his actual birthday, and

31:37

the day that his parents chose him, which

31:39

I think is just so beautiful. But yeah,

31:41

I told him, you know, what

31:45

I knew of my mum and my

31:47

story.

31:48

And then I, without blowing his mind totally,

31:50

just said, actually, there's

31:52

these amazing guys that have done these. podcast.

32:00

I don't know if you listened to them, but

32:03

he said he was going to try and get his head

32:05

round things with a few beers and take

32:07

a look at the podcast. But

32:10

yeah, absolutely amazing.

32:12

So I feel that I

32:14

will eternally be grateful to

32:16

you guys, because not only have I got on Chris Stewart

32:18

now, I've also got my brother Danny.

32:21

I mean, without you guys, we wouldn't

32:23

be together. And it's like, I've

32:26

got a nephew and a niece now.

32:28

That's incredible. I'm so glad that y'all have been able

32:30

to make some connections through this. It's really,

32:33

it's really exciting. It's amazing.

32:36

And if Susan was with us, she

32:38

would be 71 this year. It's a bit

32:42

of food for thought, I'll tell you.

32:48

Y'all, I just can't

32:50

get over how lovely Stewart and Lisa

32:52

are. I'm so happy that they're

32:54

happy with everything that's happened through this process,

32:57

and that they found each other and now a brother

32:59

like that's

33:00

I, I just can't, I can't

33:02

stop smiling. It's just incredible.

33:05

I just feel really grateful to know that we were able to

33:07

be a small part of this. And hearing

33:09

how much it means to them is just

33:10

really beautiful. It's the

33:13

best. I actually really,

33:15

I

33:16

would love to share this with the Barksdales too. I

33:18

mean, I don't think this story necessarily

33:20

turned out the way they expected. But they're

33:23

the reason we're on this journey in

33:25

the first place. I think they would be very happy

33:27

to hear.

33:33

We're gonna talk for the first time. His name

33:35

is Danny. And so

33:37

she got to meet her brother for the first

33:39

time. She's nothing else. That

33:45

is amazing. 50 years old and met her brother

33:47

for the first time. Not even

33:49

though she had one. No.

33:51

And that's the most important thing because that

33:53

creates the healing process. And

33:55

so those are the kind of things that I think is the

33:57

richest thing. And we can't.

33:59

That's priceless. But all in all, all

34:02

in all, the good that's coming out of this is

34:05

we have created a new family, we've

34:07

given closure, and what better thing than an executor

34:10

has

34:10

to do?

34:19

I'm absolutely loving the

34:21

podcast because my memory is

34:23

so rubbish. I have to listen

34:25

to them

34:26

each time, and then I have to listen to them

34:29

all in a row. So by the end

34:31

of it, I'll be listening to them

34:32

all again after I've listened to

34:34

like the first one, that many times,

34:36

et cetera. And every time I listen to them, I

34:39

find out more information or I take more

34:41

information in.

34:42

But for me, it's just building

34:45

up this picture of my mom's life, whether it's

34:47

the good, the bad, the ugly, whatever.

34:49

Well, that's kind of a perfect segue into

34:52

what I have for you, which

34:54

is we've talked to a bunch

34:56

of people trying to get to know Sue,

34:59

and I have put together

35:02

sort of a collection of

35:05

people

35:06

talking about Sue in their own words.

35:09

I would love to play it for you if that's okay.

35:11

Sure.

35:14

Sue's very bubbly, a lot of fun to be around.

35:17

Just a really kind of free spirit. She

35:21

always seemed peppy. She liked to have a good time. Very

35:24

outgoing, very friendly, a

35:26

keen sense of humor and joy

35:28

to be around. Enjoy being

35:31

her friend. She knew a lot of people

35:33

and everybody that knew her loved her. She

35:35

was a personable person. She could talk to anybody.

35:38

Here's a picture and she's laughing. I

35:40

mean, giant teeth grin. That's

35:42

how I remember Sue. We love

35:45

each other dearly, you know, and we never

35:47

had a lot of fun together, particularly in New Orleans.

35:49

We took a fish and she didn't do a whole lot of

35:51

fish and she'd play with the crabs and

35:53

she won't be able to scuffle her over here. We

35:55

went out to eat. We went to the lake. We skied,

35:58

we played. She loved her.

35:59

motorcycle. She knew how to drive a motorcycle.

36:02

You know we listened to the radio a lot. I mean, you know, we

36:04

both like rock and roll at the time. The

36:07

Rolling Stones, she was, well, we

36:09

were both big fans of old rock and

36:11

roll. She liked Rolling

36:13

Stones and she sang

36:15

in some nightclubs. She wrote poetry.

36:18

And she made teddy bears by

36:20

hand. She shot Hunter's Pistol,

36:23

was a state champion target shooter.

36:25

She was a very good marksman.

36:28

Oh yeah, she loved to shoot guns. We would

36:30

meet on Thursday nights and play dominoes.

36:33

The youngest of the crowd of us would

36:35

usually be drinking and Sue would drink tea

36:37

or coffee. I don't think I ever saw her

36:39

drink at all. She drank very

36:41

little. Every once in a while she'd have a glass of wine.

36:44

I know she was a smoker. She did smoke

36:46

while I was rolling. One hundred and a half miles.

36:48

Sue was two packs a day. And she

36:51

would always make everybody say these British limericks.

36:54

The one that I remember the most was about the pheasant plucker's

36:56

son. The

36:59

language differences

36:59

Sue found that funny. Talking

37:02

about knocking somebody up is

37:04

actually knocking on their door. It's

37:06

not what we think it is. She

37:08

could turn on her English accent in

37:11

a heartbeat and it's like she never left

37:14

England. She's a beautiful girl. She had a great

37:16

accent. I love a British accent. My daughter

37:18

was younger then and she just loved

37:21

talking to Sue because of her English

37:23

accent. She would use that British accent

37:25

to maximum effect. She could put somebody

37:28

in their place really quick.

37:29

She had a very strong personality.

37:32

My ex-roon bait was I think six

37:35

six about 430 pounds

37:37

and he just scared a dumb hunter. She was not gonna

37:39

let anybody take advantage

37:42

of her.

37:42

Most people were scared of her I would say

37:45

because of her strong attitude. If she was going

37:47

out she was going out fighting. You best not even

37:49

look in her direction until she has one cup

37:51

of coffee. She's right demanding. She's

37:53

like that's what she wanted. You know but

37:56

she had a heart ago and she was near you

37:58

but you know whatever you needed to.

37:59

She was a unique individual. She really

38:02

was. I went and got a new alternator put on my

38:04

truck one time. The next day my battery's dead

38:06

and we go out and pop the hood on it. And she

38:08

said, oh, well these two wires were crossed over here. She

38:11

was a very intelligent woman. She was very, very smart.

38:13

She was very astute in

38:15

human nature. She was so secretive

38:18

and I don't know, seemed

38:21

real insecure. I don't think she

38:23

liked being by herself. I'd never

38:25

really thought that she was paranoid about anything.

38:28

One of Sue's very favorite things

38:30

was just because you're paranoid doesn't mean

38:32

they're not out to get you. She had her skeletons

38:35

and she never revealed them. She didn't really

38:37

talk about herself or her family or so

38:39

all that sort of stuff. I just, I don't know. She

38:42

was proud of who she was,

38:44

but yet she was guarded about

38:47

where she came from and who she was. She

38:49

had told me that she had had a child

38:52

when she was really young. I know she had a child.

38:55

She had a daughter. She had a daughter. I

38:57

got the impression that she felt like she was

38:59

forced

38:59

to give her the child. That it

39:02

wasn't really her choice. She was looking for

39:04

something. I don't think she

39:06

really ever found it.

39:09

But I do hope that she had some pleasure

39:11

in her life and she

39:14

enjoyed some moments.

39:17

It's been kind of fun remembering her because like I said,

39:20

it's one of those, you know, she was there in a

39:22

big part of our lives and then just all of a sudden was

39:24

gone. It was really... It

39:26

was a shock to everybody.

39:29

I wish she was still here, but

39:33

just like I said, pleasant memories.

39:44

And like I said, that's the short version. I can definitely

39:47

send you a longer one, but I wanted you to hear what

39:49

she was like from the people who knew her. Yeah.

39:51

Everybody, it's like

39:54

they couldn't sing her praises. They

39:57

couldn't sing her praises enough. She was just such

39:59

a lovely lady. and I'm

40:01

her daughter. Yeah,

40:04

you are. Well,

40:09

I'm really just so grateful that y'all let

40:11

us into your lives like this. I'm

40:14

grateful. Oh my goodness.

40:17

And it all started with Heather, an amazing

40:20

lady, and then all of you, all

40:22

of you.

40:23

I will be eternally grateful.

40:26

Yeah, me too. Yeah, it's your fault

40:28

Heather. Sorry about that, mate. My name is Steve.

40:32

Thank you. It's nice to,

40:35

because you're sitting back and

40:37

you've, for every year,

40:40

you know, you know September

40:42

13th is a birthday and everything, and

40:47

there's stuff that you want to share.

40:51

Like my kids. How

40:53

I've been a dad. How

40:56

I've done things.

41:02

But you can't, because there's no family to

41:04

share it with, but now there is. And

41:09

it's one of those

41:11

things, you know, it's, it's

41:14

really good. It's really good. I'm

41:16

just so happy that I have this opportunity.

41:19

So with that said and everything, thank

41:21

you. Thank you very much.

41:25

I will keep you posted on

41:27

Danny. Yeah. Because obviously

41:30

I didn't want to bombard

41:33

poor lad, he's only just found out about

41:36

me and then I told him he's got an office shoe at

41:38

the, you know, imagine. He

41:41

was like, come on, let me process this

41:43

already, but I will keep you guys

41:45

posted, honestly. I would love

41:47

that. I'm just really happy that y'all got to connect. Thank

41:50

you both so much. It's been, it's been really great

41:52

catching up with y'all. I'm glad to hear that this

41:54

has been a positive experience for you. Very

41:56

much. Very much. My

41:59

daughter just. to me today she says

42:01

why is it like so important

42:03

to you you know mom and nana and

42:05

granddad was your mom and dad i said nana and granddad

42:07

will always be my mom and dad but

42:10

i said because i've known right from a very little

42:13

girl that i was adopted i've always known

42:15

about my mama's in yes she went off to

42:17

america and i always wanted

42:19

to find her and i've tried over

42:21

the years and nothing so for

42:24

you guys to get all this information

42:27

for me it just builds this picture of my

42:29

mom's

42:29

life and honestly i

42:32

can't thank you enough it is amazing

42:43

hearing from stewart and lisa i

42:45

mean the love they have for each other you

42:47

can hear it you can see it i

42:49

mean i keep thinking about the thing stewart said

42:52

in that call where he said

42:54

there's so many things i want to share and there's

42:57

no family left to share it with but now

42:59

there is yeah they're

43:01

a family yeah i

43:04

think they're the point you

43:06

know like they

43:08

are so happy to have

43:10

each other and it

43:12

makes it all worth it it really does yeah

43:16

and on top of that their new relationship with danny

43:18

and i hope that

43:20

danny continues to build a relationship with

43:22

lisa and with stewart and i

43:25

hope they all get to meet in person one day and talk

43:27

about sue yeah the

43:30

people that we've found you

43:32

know they're all characters they all

43:35

have their things and they're all um

43:38

complicated and beautiful

43:40

and they've

43:42

all just been so gracious they've

43:45

been so gracious with us and

43:47

you know i was going through trying

43:50

to find the pieces that belonged in

43:52

that montage and so many

43:54

of those conversations were like two

43:57

hours three hour and

44:00

Yeah, it was just really, I'm so

44:02

grateful that all of these people have been

44:06

so willing to talk to us about

44:08

this person because like, she

44:10

sounds awesome. She sounds

44:12

like such an amazing person. She

44:15

sounds like a badass and a sweetheart

44:17

and, you know, I don't know. They

44:21

just all clearly just loved her so much.

44:23

They loved her so much.

44:25

I just think everyone should get a podcast

44:27

for their person. I know like everyone

44:29

should get to make a podcast or write a book or

44:32

have a 12-hour

44:32

lecture on a person

44:35

that they really love that like they don't get to talk

44:37

about anymore. It's just all a bunch of

44:39

mysterious, weird, grief stuff

44:42

and everyone should get a whole podcast

44:44

and a devoted team of researchers to

44:47

talk about their person is my official stance

44:49

on the matter. But I mean, that's

44:52

the thing that we've been talking about, right? The podcast

44:54

ends, but all the things that came out of it keep

44:56

going and that's, it's really exciting.

45:04

I told you I wouldn't do this, but

45:06

here I am. I'm back.

45:09

I'm speaking to you, the listener, because

45:11

I have a few things to say. Throughout

45:14

this process and still to

45:16

this day, I

45:18

changed my mind about who

45:20

Sue was on a near daily

45:23

basis. We've

45:25

spoken to so many people. We've learned

45:28

so much about her

45:31

and still so much of it feels

45:34

just out of my grasp. There

45:37

is a lot that makes more sense. There

45:39

is a lot that still keeps me up at night. I

45:42

don't understand why

45:45

Steve received this phone call. I

45:47

don't understand why Sue would

45:49

have said that

45:52

she stowed away on a plane to get here. I

45:54

don't understand why

45:58

so many of these rumors proceed. I

46:00

don't understand where they started. I don't

46:03

understand. I did not

46:05

start this journey to chase down the facts of a crime.

46:08

I don't believe a crime was committed. But

46:11

I knew there was a story behind

46:14

these theories about this woman

46:17

and the fact that they've lasted for so long

46:20

and in so many people's minds and

46:22

hearts

46:23

and have not dissipated

46:26

over the years. And

46:30

I think

46:33

maybe the thing that explains it is

46:36

that Sue was a storyteller too. I

46:39

think maybe she wanted these rumors to persist

46:43

and she wanted everyone to have questions and

46:45

she wanted to leave everything up in the

46:47

air a bit and keep people

46:49

guessing and keep people thinking. And I

46:53

mean, it's worked. She

46:56

successfully kept

46:58

people thinking about her. She

47:00

kept the people in her life thinking about her. She's

47:03

kept the people tangential to

47:05

her life thinking about her on the outskirts of her life

47:07

thinking about her. And now she's kept

47:09

me thinking about her and

47:13

you thinking about her. And

47:15

I think what else

47:17

can a life measure up to?

47:20

And

47:21

even though that life was short,

47:25

the ripples of her life carry

47:28

on even now.

47:30

I think that's extraordinary.

47:44

Undercover of Night is an Apple original podcast

47:47

produced by Spoke Media and Castle View

47:49

Productions. For pictures of Sue and

47:51

other content, go to SpokeMedia.io

47:54

slash Undercover of Night. Our

47:56

writer, host, and showrunner is me, Jenna

47:58

Burnett.

47:59

Our executive producers are Lucy Huang and Reyes

48:02

Mendoza. Our researcher is Haley

48:04

Nelson, and our consulting journalist is Bob

48:06

Sullivan. Mix, sound design, and

48:08

original music by Will Short, with additional

48:10

music from Universal Production Music. Story

48:13

consulting by Brigham Mosley. Our

48:15

executive producers are Caroline Hamilton,

48:18

Sharita Lynn Solis, Heather Mansfield-Jernigan,

48:20

Ted Barnhill, Aliyah Tavakolian,

48:23

and Keith Reynolds. Special thanks

48:25

to Dr. Yvette Shaleen and Beverly Ross for

48:27

sharing their expertise. And special thanks

48:29

to everyone

48:29

who helped bring this story to life. Susan

48:32

Seeger, Carson McCain, Kelly Colf,

48:35

Travis Ballinger, Kristen Bennett, Trey

48:37

Jones, Janielle Kastner, Alicia

48:39

Force, Andrew Burnett, Chris Alford,

48:42

Andrew Jernigan, Valentina Calamon,

48:45

Lily Milkovic-Jaykel, Parker Severins,

48:47

Glory Reichelt, Noah Heller, Piper

48:50

Worley, and everyone we

48:51

interviewed. If you have any information

48:54

on Sue Knight, you can email us at infosuenight

48:57

at gmail.com. If

48:59

you or someone you know needs support, go

49:01

to apple.com slash here to help for resources.

49:05

Follow on Apple podcasts and thank y'all for listening.