0:00

My family spent twenty years on

0:03

the run, fleeing from threats I

0:05

still struggle to fully comprehend. People

0:07

out there that want to do us harm. We got

0:10

a phone call thing that

0:12

your father's dogs were coming

0:14

to break my legs. Run,

0:16

hide, repeat the unbelievable true

0:18

story of a fugitive family

0:20

and the unimaginable truth of

0:22

what we were running from.

0:25

Available now on Cbc, Listen and

0:28

everywhere you get your podcasts. This

0:32

is a Cbc podcast. For

0:38

more than six weeks now, I've

0:41

been watching the largest election in

0:43

human history and four and it's

0:45

been pretty breath. There

0:47

are nearly a billion eligible voters

0:50

here. That's more than ten percent

0:52

of the entire world's population. And

0:57

their right to vote. It's taken

0:59

really serious. I'll give you an

1:01

example: everyone who's registered all nine

1:03

hundred and sixty nine million of

1:06

them are entitled to cast their

1:08

ballot within just two kilometers of

1:10

their home. So that's

1:12

why you see these crazy

1:14

pictures of electoral officials schlepping

1:16

electronic voting machines across reverse

1:19

up mountains, even through jungles.

1:21

One polling team actually tracked

1:23

for nearly forty kilometers on

1:25

foot a full day's hike

1:27

to get to a remote

1:29

village near the China border,

1:31

just so one woman could

1:34

vote. It's

1:39

an incredible logistical feet and an

1:41

illustration of this country's deep commitment

1:44

to democracy. That democracy is a

1:46

huge part of India story as

1:48

a nation. The story it tells

1:51

the world and the story it

1:53

tells. It's up. After fighting for

1:55

it, out of the devastation of

1:58

British rule came a child. of

2:00

actually making it work. India's

2:06

democracy has been called a miracle.

2:10

But even as India has

2:12

just undergone this massive and

2:14

impressive electoral exercise, some

2:16

worry that this miracle is in danger,

2:19

and that now a new

2:22

story of India is being written by

2:24

its leader and his

2:26

ruling party. I'm

2:36

Selena Shivji, and this is Modi's

2:38

India Understood, Episode 4,

2:41

The Story. As

2:57

voters head to the polls, Prime

2:59

Minister Narendra Modi has been travelling

3:01

state to state, campaigning on his

3:03

track record over the last 10

3:05

years, on economic development

3:07

and on security. He's

3:10

calling it the Modi Guarantee.

3:23

His supporters have come out in droves,

3:25

with saffron flags, strings of

3:28

marigolds and chants of long-lived

3:30

Modi. I

3:38

went to an election rally in Mangalore,

3:40

and this one woman I talked to,

3:42

Vidya Kamath, sounded giddy at the prospect of

3:44

catching a glimpse of the man that

3:46

she told me is like a god.

4:00

The Bjp scarf. Holding a Modi

4:02

poster and so was her husband

4:04

who day comment who I chatted

4:06

with for a little while longer

4:08

and he was just as enthusiasts.

4:11

He's like a god for some books and

4:14

in there though of and that him up

4:16

to do little hole so and you'll be

4:18

there a long time. I may have a

4:20

sense. Why

4:22

do you compare him to the same. Qualities

4:25

He is abby, he

4:27

selfless montana and either

4:29

alone know. He doesn't

4:31

have a family and family business

4:34

and or nothing nothing either. Boardman.

4:39

I'm just going to pop in here

4:41

and explain a little bit about what

4:43

do they mean when he says that

4:45

Modi is alone. While Modi is technically

4:48

married, he left his wife when he

4:50

was a teenager. He doesn't have any

4:52

children, but in a country where political

4:54

dynasties have been the norm, people seem

4:56

to like that about him. And ever

4:59

the savvy political operator, Modi uses this

5:01

to his advantage. Take a listen

5:03

to this clip from a rally that he

5:05

held with Donald Trump in six and kids.

5:07

When. He name keep. Your.

5:20

Promise. And.

5:28

Ah, He

5:41

gestures to the crowd is about. Sixty Thousand

5:44

Indians and Indian American. He's

5:46

saying they are his sandals

5:48

and they love. On

5:54

the campaign trail this election season. louise

5:57

revive the line calling the one

5:59

point four billion people of India,

6:02

his family, and referring to himself

6:04

in the third person, saying, you

6:06

are Modi, and Modi is yours. Anyway,

6:17

back to Uday. So,

6:20

you know, he's a great man. So we are

6:22

devoted to him. He will win this election. I

6:25

think he'll win a third straight term. And

6:27

so what do you think he'll do for India

6:30

in that third term? All poor people should

6:32

become rich, and everyone should

6:34

get the basic amenities, everyone.

6:37

And India should become a developing nation,

6:39

just like other European or American countries.

6:42

And we are supporting him in that. I

6:46

asked him where he thought India was

6:48

headed on the world stage, with Modi

6:50

in charge. No,

6:52

it will lead the world. So far,

6:54

India was backward. But in

6:57

future, India will become

6:59

the leader of the entire

7:01

world. And what should they talk about? Means,

7:04

you know, it is a world is a family. That

7:06

is our concept. World is one

7:09

family. No,

7:11

he says he will lead the world. Not just India,

7:13

he will lead the world. Talking

7:18

to people like Uday and Vidya,

7:20

it's clear that they believe the

7:22

story Modi's telling about India is

7:25

a hopeful one. One where

7:27

India will become a global superpower,

7:29

uniting everyone around this inclusive

7:32

Hindu principle that the whole

7:34

world is one family. This

7:39

inclusiveness is one of the things that Modi

7:42

supporters insist his critics don't understand, especially

7:46

the media. That's Sudesh Verma,

7:48

the BJP spokesperson who was in the second episode.

8:00

picture which we are witnessing. So that

8:02

is why we always prove them wrong.

8:05

And Mr. Modi and the BJP always keep spinning

8:07

because they don't.

8:11

But I've talked to a lot of

8:13

Modi critics who insist that their picture

8:15

is the real one. That

8:18

Modi's inclusiveness is a false

8:20

promise, lip service, to

8:22

a set of values that already exists

8:25

here in India. Principles that

8:27

were embedded here by India's founders

8:30

and that are now, in their view, at

8:32

risk. Hi

8:36

I'm Tushar Gandhi. I live

8:38

in Mumbai, India. I'm a

8:41

political social activist and an

8:43

author. My

8:47

more famous introduction is I'm

8:49

the great grandson of M.K.

8:51

Gandhi, the Mahatma. Can

8:56

I ask, do you see any

8:59

type of similarities between Mahatma Gandhi

9:01

and Narendra Modi? You

9:06

must be joking. In

9:11

the story of modern India, no

9:13

one looms larger than Gandhi, the

9:16

father of the nation, or Bapu,

9:18

as he's affectionately called. His

9:20

smiling face is on every single

9:22

banknote in India. It's this constant

9:24

reminder of what it took to

9:26

get the country where it is

9:28

today. My

9:32

great grandfather always imagined

9:35

a compassionate humanitarian

9:37

inclusive India, India

9:40

based on the principle of equality.

9:45

Aside from keeping Gandhi's memory alive

9:47

through his writing and activism, Tushar

9:49

has been an outspoken critic of

9:51

the Modi government and

9:53

the idea of Hindutva, or Hindu

9:56

nationalism. It's a force that's

9:58

been around in India long before the war. War

10:00

and Iran's remote. He became prime. Minister think

10:02

of it as an alternate

10:04

blueprint. For the country. One

10:06

that competed with and ultimately lost

10:09

and to the gone he envisioned

10:11

of us pluralistic, secular. Society.

10:15

Or even in his dame

10:17

were there was this. solo

10:20

grew full of extremist hindus

10:22

who used to campaign against

10:24

go slaughter and my great

10:26

grandfather always blow first his

10:28

love for goes and how

10:30

he the V or them

10:32

are no of. It

10:35

was as an animal but

10:37

T seed firstly refuse to

10:40

support people who wanted a

10:42

complete ban. On Go Slow

10:44

to in the the consumption and

10:46

sale of beef. Saying that though

10:48

there was a sizable number of

10:51

people who did not consider the

10:53

code to be wholly and did

10:55

not, were considered to be just

10:58

an animal which provided food and

11:00

so they had a date to

11:02

the consume beef as voters, the

11:05

news had a right to reveal

11:07

their Go. There

11:11

was always a presence of Hindu

11:13

nationalists. During the Indian Independence.

11:16

Gandhi was executed by an extremist

11:18

name nut the run code say

11:20

to believe that guy and he

11:22

had betrayed his Hindu feasts by

11:24

being too soft on Muslims. For.

11:28

A time this ideology was largely

11:31

relegated to the political fringes that

11:33

the grassroots reach of groups like

11:35

the Rss, The right wing Hindu

11:38

Nationalists organization Modi with a part

11:40

of as a younger man has

11:43

been growing for jacket and now

11:45

it seems like it's times has

11:47

come. To sources that

11:49

as a flat out rejection of

11:52

is great grandfather's idea. In.

11:56

the last decade india has

11:58

gone to the other extreme

12:00

weather we do not accept

12:02

differences, mobs, the

12:05

whole sway over democracy where

12:08

majoritarianism is considered to

12:10

be the right. This

12:13

is not what Bapu had dreamt

12:16

to be the India of his dreams.

12:19

This slide has been spectacular. As

12:22

much as, you know, we boast

12:24

about the economic resurgence

12:27

of India and things, the

12:29

model deprivation of India

12:31

is even more

12:33

spectacular. Modi's

12:38

detractors argue that during his

12:40

time in office, the institutions

12:42

that uphold India's democracy have

12:45

been eroding. They've raised concerns

12:47

about the lack of debate in Parliament,

12:49

changes made to the way the

12:51

Election Commission works, the targeting of

12:54

opposition politicians and activists. Multiple

12:57

Supreme Court judges have warned

12:59

that the highest courts independence

13:01

is under threat. The

13:07

free press in India has taken a hit

13:09

too. Ownership of

13:11

the country's largest media outlets

13:13

has consolidated, mostly into the

13:15

hands of industrialists friendly with

13:17

Modi and the government

13:19

has been targeting critical journalists. India's

13:22

press freedom score has sunk to 159

13:24

out of 180 countries.

13:28

The group that puts out that index,

13:30

Reporters Without Borders, calls

13:32

India's ranking unworthy of

13:35

a democracy. Now some

13:37

worry the Constitution will be next.

13:43

In our foundation we were secular,

13:45

our founders instilled

13:47

those ideas and put them

13:49

into the Constitution with the

13:51

stress on fraternity and brotherhood.

13:54

And that is why the right wing,

13:56

Hindu right wing, Does not really

13:58

like to be a part of the Constitution. Like know

14:00

constitution and earth would love

14:03

to change it And this

14:05

dame that most is being

14:07

used in election campaigns by

14:09

the more radical elements in

14:11

the Bjp. of saying that

14:13

if you give us more

14:15

than it'll four hundred seats

14:17

in parliament than we can

14:19

change the constitution. and so

14:22

if that happens then India

14:24

as we have known it

14:26

so far, will cease to

14:28

exist. There

14:34

have been Bjp members who have

14:36

talked about changing the constitution. One

14:38

N P, On and Co are

14:40

hagler. Recently said that they were

14:42

parts of the constitution that were

14:44

quote aimed at suppressing the Hindi

14:47

society and that if that's going

14:49

to be changed, the party will

14:51

need a bigger majority but the

14:53

Dtp distance themselves from heck They

14:55

are marks saying that it was

14:57

just this mps personal view and

14:59

then they dropped him as a

15:01

candidate. Modi

15:06

has disputed the opposition's claims that

15:08

he's planning on changing the constitution,

15:10

and he's accused the Congress. Party

15:13

A Starting loss. Whether.

15:26

Or not in the Us constitution will

15:28

actually change under. Modi remains to be

15:30

seen and I can't predict the future,

15:33

but it is possible I think to

15:35

get a read on where the country

15:37

or at least a large part of

15:39

that imagine that Cent stores because if

15:42

you want get a vibe check on

15:44

any country's national narrative, it's hope it's

15:46

ambitions. It's anxieties. I say look to

15:49

the arts and in India probably the

15:51

most popular art form is some. Bollywood,

16:08

the country's Hindi language film

16:10

industry, is easily one of

16:12

the most recognizable symbols of

16:14

modern India. The dramatic

16:16

storylines, the colourful posters, the grand

16:19

song and dance numbers, all

16:21

of that encapsulate a distinctly

16:24

Indian style of storytelling. These

16:39

films have long been a source

16:41

of pride for the country, especially

16:43

as other Indian regional film industries

16:46

like the Telugu language, Tollywood, have

16:48

also gained an international audience. The

16:51

movie RRR launched Tollywood onto the

16:53

world stage in 2022. It's

16:57

this totally bombastic period

16:59

piece about two fictionalized

17:01

heroes fighting back against

17:03

India's colonial oppressors. At

17:09

the end of the three-hour epic, there's a

17:12

finale, a song and dance number. It

17:14

honours India's revolutionaries. But

17:17

if you watch closely, there's a notable

17:19

omission. Freedom

17:24

struggle, but Mahatma Gandhi is not

17:27

included in that scene. What

17:29

was your reaction when you saw that? I

17:33

wasn't surprised. I wasn't surprised. It

17:35

was a trashy movie and

17:37

it was fiction. So they had the

17:39

right to portray what they wanted. And

17:41

I wouldn't have even wanted my great

17:44

grandfather's image to be associated with that

17:47

kind of movie that

17:49

glorified senseless violence. Those

17:53

kind of movies are becoming

17:55

more and more popular and

17:57

that also portrays the

17:59

change. that is coming about in

18:01

our society. The

18:05

director of RRR says he didn't

18:07

mean any disrespect by leaving Gandhi

18:09

out. But it fits the

18:11

trend that Tushar and others say has been

18:13

on the rise, an attempt

18:16

to diminish or discredit Gandhi as

18:18

the father of the nation. Instead,

18:20

there's a celebration of figures

18:23

like V.D. Savarkar, the father

18:25

of Hindutva. Savarkar

18:27

was a fierce opponent of Gandhi's, and

18:29

though he was exonerated of all charges, he

18:32

was linked to Gandhi's murder. A

18:35

movie about Savarkar's life hit theaters

18:37

earlier this spring. It's

18:49

one of the whole crop of films that

18:52

have come out recently that are neatly in

18:54

line with the Modi government's politics. Kashmir's

18:57

Article 370, a film that

18:59

valorizes the Indian government's decision

19:01

to take away Kashmir's constitutional

19:04

autonomy. Yet

19:13

another villainizes a fictional liberal arts

19:15

university and the left-wing student activists

19:18

that go there. The

19:20

school in the movie has the same initials

19:23

as a Delhi University, JNU, which was at

19:25

the center

19:31

of the anti-CAA protests in 2019.

19:40

I watch very few movies coming out

19:43

of India, if they've seen the main

19:45

commercial product that comes out of Bombay. That's

19:50

Suketu Mehta. He's the author of a

19:52

book called Maximum City, Bombay Lost and

19:54

Found, and he's worked in Bollywood. He

19:56

moved from Mumbai to New York in

19:58

the 1970s. and

20:00

has spent much of his life going back

20:02

and forth between India and the US. You

20:08

know just from the synopsis I can tell how bad

20:10

it is. It usually involves

20:13

some guy with Popeye

20:15

muscles who is

20:17

fighting some sort of Muslim menace, you

20:19

know bombings in the country

20:22

and he goes abroad and it's kind

20:24

of down market mission

20:26

impossible and I really

20:28

have no time

20:30

to watch these movies. This

20:33

is a dramatic shift for Suketu. He

20:35

used to love Bollywood movies. I

20:39

grew up on Bollywood movies. I love

20:42

these you know Hindi films. I

20:44

grew up in Jackson Heights in

20:46

Queens in a building full

20:48

of people from all over the world. Indians, Pakistanis,

20:51

Dominicans, Russians, Greeks

20:54

and the one thing we had in common was 10 a.m.

20:57

Sunday mornings there was a Bollywood

20:59

program called Vision of Asia and

21:01

all of us, the Russians, Dominicans,

21:03

Pakistanis, Indians, sang along to the

21:05

Bollywood songs and they had

21:07

this global reach because the Hindi

21:09

films until recently

21:13

were incredibly open and anyone was

21:15

welcome as long they had talent

21:17

or money. So you could have a

21:20

film that had a Hindu producer

21:23

and a Christian director

21:25

and a Muslim lyricist

21:28

and a Sikh actor all working together

21:31

to make magic. So

21:33

the films of my time were

21:35

films like Amar Akbar Anthony. With

21:45

Jeff, a completely implausible,

21:48

ridiculous, large-hearted film with

21:50

the Hindu-Muslimic and

21:54

they are all brothers who have been

21:56

separated at birth And it

21:58

symbolized it. The kind

22:01

of large heartedness of the Hindi

22:03

film industry in the nineteen

22:05

seventies and eighties. reserves. Let it

22:07

all of us are really blood

22:10

brothers. The film's today's that

22:12

come out of Bollywood. Are

22:15

much more nationalistic. It troubles

22:17

me even more than what's

22:19

happened to Indian politics because

22:21

people who don't watch the

22:23

political shows on what passes

22:25

for a new programs and

22:27

Indian television they will go

22:29

to the movies and then

22:32

being spread his steady diet

22:34

of. Patriotic. Strange

22:36

and wonderful. Some criticism

22:38

that characterize government free

22:40

as all but gone.

22:47

It you could be that the Hindi

22:50

film industry was when of the most

22:52

aggressive institutions in the country's Bollywood movie

22:54

stars today. If this beat up at

22:57

all it is to play more. Did.

23:02

So it feel to you when you see

23:04

that you know that things will trace. It

23:06

really has of that narratives in the Bollywood

23:08

movies the silencing it's of the movie stars

23:10

and and you know when you see. Streaming.

23:13

Services like Netflix dropping movies

23:15

like that Monkey Men, Det

23:17

The Tells recent it's movie.

23:20

With the growth of streaming

23:22

services like Netflix and Amazon

23:24

and it was his brief

23:26

spring were engine for exposed

23:28

to really dig cutting edge

23:30

cinema that could hold it

23:32

phone with any kind of

23:34

fundamental differences were commissioning tv

23:36

shows and movies which dealt

23:38

with or example police brutality,

23:40

old rape or political violence.

23:43

All that came to an

23:45

end when there was a

23:47

case launched against at the

23:49

head of Amazon in India

23:51

over a tv show called

23:53

kind Of and after that

23:55

case all the streaming services.

23:58

When. They when asked to bend, they

24:00

crawl. They

24:03

suspended anything that remotely

24:05

controversial. So my own

24:07

book Maximum City The

24:10

brilliant filmmaker Unwrap Kashyap.

24:12

he written three. Put.

24:14

An end to screenplays based on

24:16

My book and Netflix had. Basically

24:18

greenlit the project over a month away

24:21

from shooting. And suspended

24:23

the project because able to

24:25

feed off doing anything political

24:27

or fear of incurring the

24:29

wrath of not just the

24:31

government but this now a

24:33

mob of people on social

24:36

media. And. Worse people

24:38

who moved the codes to

24:40

file a spurious charges of

24:42

inciting of religious if. In

24:46

fighting the feelings of Hindus

24:48

and there are magistrates

24:51

in the country who is

24:53

actually admit these petitions. This

24:56

puts a chill into the heart of if

24:58

and when we make good food Air let's

25:00

say for did not in India to make

25:02

great out that there to make money. For

25:05

that much of his fault. Of

25:07

American streamers who basically since

25:09

China to have condemned as

25:11

he india of the next

25:13

big markets and that unwilling

25:15

to have disliked of opposition

25:17

to the government and it's

25:19

policies on media. We

25:25

as Amazon and Netflix is they

25:27

avoid politically sensitive programming in India.

25:29

the didn't hear back. In

25:44

the Nineteen eighties and nineties, New York

25:47

City Meat is a tough com like

25:49

detective. Lose yourself putting the guys away.

25:51

There's no feeling like it in the

25:54

world. He was. the guy has made

25:56

sure the worst killers were brought to

25:58

justice. That's one version. Is

26:00

God is a pieces. Derek

26:03

Hamilton was put away from murder

26:05

by detect a score Self in

26:07

prison, Derek turned himself into the

26:09

best jailhouse lawyer of his generation.

26:11

This is the bird. Listen

26:14

to new episodes of The Burden starting

26:16

March nineteenth and I Hard video app,

26:19

apple podcasts or whatever easy to podcasts.

26:24

In terms of that seems do

26:26

you see it in everyday life

26:28

when you visit India? does it

26:30

strike yields be amounts I suppose

26:32

of support. For. India.

26:34

Shifting towards and more Hindu.

26:37

Feasts nice in D C. It go into

26:39

the market or walking down the street or

26:41

feeling it's from when you're in everyday interactions

26:43

with people. Marry

26:45

My true I feared in

26:47

all area of opinion life

26:50

and I switch on the

26:52

television when I read a

26:54

newspaper when I walk into

26:56

an apartment building which they've

26:58

either Hindu are muslim. that

27:00

is a kind of segregation.

27:02

In. Many areas

27:04

of Indian life academia, business

27:07

and come from the very

27:09

troubling. Personal. Interaction for

27:11

and give You have to read out

27:13

of that. A party in Bombay four

27:16

years ago and per person came up

27:18

to talk to me who had grown

27:20

up in the same kind of Bombay

27:22

that I'd grown up in for have

27:24

any true to their focus, had gone

27:27

to the best schools and see happen

27:29

to be Muslim and. When.

27:32

Moody's. Got. Re elected.

27:35

He. Mentioned to a

27:37

Hindu childhood friend evade. I'm

27:39

feeling a little nervous about

27:41

Modi rhetoric and I'm wondering

27:43

what this means. Board my

27:45

pleased with a Muslim in

27:47

India. And. You Hindu

27:50

friend. Who. Switched from.

27:53

English to Hindi to respond said.

27:56

Up to fit in there are two could

27:58

be be mentioned. Pakistan shala jafakte

28:01

which is why are you

28:03

so worried anytime you want

28:05

you could always go to Pakistan And

28:09

the man who was speaking to me was God

28:12

smacked he had never thought

28:14

of himself as anything other than Indian

28:16

Pakistan to him was as remote

28:20

as Mongolia and he was

28:22

telling me he felt so deeply wounded

28:25

so this kind of This

28:27

kind of wounding is happening with

28:29

220 million people across the

28:31

country They are systematically being

28:33

told by Modi and his

28:36

followers. You are not Indian.

28:38

We will tolerate you living here But

28:41

you or your ancestors came

28:43

from elsewhere and some of

28:46

the most extreme of Modi supporters Saying

28:48

you should go back to where you came from. Well,

28:50

these people didn't come from anywhere else They

28:53

are as Indian as I

28:56

am there are as Indian as my family who's

28:58

living in India their

29:00

ancestors just chose which God's to

29:02

worship and So you

29:05

see this and poisonous narrative

29:07

that's infected the country Which

29:10

is they use this word called Hindu toa

29:13

which isn't exactly Hinduism. It is

29:15

Hindu Nef They're saying

29:17

that Muslims can stay in the country.

29:19

We're not throwing Muslims out Christians can

29:22

stay in the country as long

29:24

as they believe in this kind of

29:26

ethos the founding ethos of this country

29:29

Which is this vague idea

29:31

of Hindu Nef now? No

29:33

one's actually defined what

29:35

this Hindu Nef is and the

29:37

great thing about and those women that even I'm

29:39

proud to call myself a Hindu Is

29:42

that it respects all religions? Growing

29:45

up the Hinduism that I subscribe

29:47

to save Let

29:50

good thoughts come to

29:52

us from all sides and also there were

29:54

wonderful phrase called was wood I were cut

29:56

them back I wish if the whole earth

29:58

is a family There's no

30:00

pope in Hinduism. In Hindu

30:02

tradition, there have been atheists, there

30:04

have been agnostics, there's

30:07

a wide spectrum of thought because

30:10

the religion itself grew

30:12

over the years. It incorporated native

30:15

gods, tribal gods.

30:18

It opened itself really to all

30:20

kinds of thought. And this Hinduism

30:23

now, this tolerant open Hinduism,

30:25

is really challenged and

30:27

the Modi's India. It's a

30:29

much more militant, nationalistic,

30:32

masculine, technological Hinduism.

30:40

So when you see the effects of that, obviously

30:43

you have a Prime Minister Modi who is celebrated

30:46

for being a gifted storyteller. But

30:48

what does it do? What is

30:50

the story that he's been telling

30:52

about India abroad as well as

30:54

at home? This

30:58

is the crucial question and not just in

31:00

India but around the world. The

31:02

world is seeing a global

31:05

war of storytelling. What

31:08

is a populist, a person like Modi

31:11

or Erdogan in

31:13

Turkey, Trump in America, Bolsonaro

31:16

in Brazil? A populist

31:18

is a gifted storyteller. Someone

31:21

who can tell a false story well. The

31:24

only way he can be fought

31:26

is by telling a true story better. Now

31:30

Modi's story of India is that India

31:32

is a Hindu country and

31:34

everyone else who's not Hindu is

31:37

a late arrival. That is,

31:39

they are not somehow authentically

31:41

Indian. That is a

31:43

false story. But Modi's

31:46

also a very gifted storyteller.

31:48

I have met him twice

31:51

personally. He knows how

31:53

to use technology. He knows how

31:55

to use a sense of

31:58

Woundedness that. And

32:00

you'd have vs Naipaul one photo

32:03

nonfiction book about India call a

32:05

Wounded Civilization vote. There are Indian

32:07

Hindu who feel that. After

32:10

centuries of Muslim rule and then

32:12

British rule it is time for

32:14

the majority of the country who

32:17

claim proudly that v of Hindu

32:19

and be at a Hindu nation

32:21

and different the narrative that Modi

32:24

have been sending and it has

32:26

popular appeal. Because there's

32:28

no doubt that colonialism ravaged

32:30

can do. It is also

32:33

true that they were muslim

32:35

so game and destroyed Hindu

32:37

temples and mosques said But

32:39

like the British muslims age

32:41

when the team from Persia

32:43

of from what is now

32:46

Afghanistan the came and stayed.

32:49

For battles fought over history. So

32:59

how do you counter that dominance officer?

33:01

You know he talks about media you

33:03

touch. The television was tough spot that

33:05

the film and result. there's also some

33:07

editing as school textbooks. this controversy over

33:09

that and attempt to rewriting history in

33:11

the text books. When Modi has been

33:13

in power for such a long time

33:15

and he of this younger generation who

33:18

release maybe only knows India under Modi,

33:20

how do you counter that to have

33:22

any. Hope for a Change

33:24

A reversal of some of the

33:26

massive changes The scene. I.

33:28

Do have Holbrook and is

33:30

too big countries to have

33:32

a truly follow this false

33:34

narrative. It's country of one

33:36

point four billion people. Or

33:43

since two communities

33:45

nice. Fear is.

33:48

What happens when Muslims really

33:50

get alienated folks? For my

33:52

books, I followed the Hindu

33:54

and Muslim people who were

33:56

involved in the fried chicken

33:58

bones and tonight. In 293,

34:01

after these anti-Muslim pogroms, a section

34:03

of the Muslim underworld bombed the

34:05

city and hundreds of people of

34:07

all religions lost their lives. And

34:11

the bombers were basically punks

34:13

who were marginal in the Muslim

34:16

community until the anti-Muslim pogrom. And

34:19

after the bomb blast, some of

34:21

the Muslims, particularly the middle classes, had

34:23

the grudging respect for these

34:25

punks. They said, we don't like them, but

34:28

at least the Hindus know

34:30

that they can't kill us with

34:32

impunity. The state won't protect us,

34:34

then at least we'll get a measure

34:36

of revenge. And what

34:39

I'm really concerned about is what

34:42

happens if 220 million people really take too

34:46

hard this lesson that they don't

34:48

belong in India? What happens to

34:51

some of the younger

34:53

or more extreme or more violent

34:56

factions among them? We

34:58

could see a civil war in the

35:00

country that would make partition seem like

35:02

a schoolyard brawl. So

35:10

that's one way this could

35:12

go, a more hopeful

35:14

way if the opposition

35:16

gets its act together. So India

35:19

has been led by the Congress Party

35:21

for much of the time since it

35:23

became independent with decidedly mixed results. And

35:26

the current leader Rahul

35:28

Gandhi, someone who I have very little

35:31

confidence in, I have again met him

35:33

in person, I've seen him campaign. And

35:36

really the only reason he's the leader of

35:38

the Congress Party is because he comes from

35:40

a family that paroled the Congress

35:42

Party. India

35:45

is bigger than a choice

35:47

between an autocrat and a

35:49

dynasty. And the

35:52

people that are fighting this ideology

35:54

have to offer an alternative beyond,

35:56

I come from

35:58

the dynasty that ruled India. or

36:00

you should vote for me. They have

36:02

to present an alternative narrative of

36:05

India as an inclusive, secular,

36:08

tolerant country, which

36:11

is there for all of

36:13

its citizens, no matter what

36:15

religion, caste, gender, class, and

36:18

they have to present this as an

36:20

optimistic vision. I'm

36:24

afraid they're failing horribly in

36:27

this context of storytelling. They don't have

36:29

the narrative tools. They don't have

36:31

the media. You know, many

36:33

of my friends know what's going on and we

36:35

tell each other, we go to academic conferences, but

36:38

we have to find a way of getting

36:40

this message out to people

36:42

beyond our circles. And this is as

36:45

true in the United States of America as it

36:47

is in India. We're

36:59

about to find out who India's next

37:01

Prime Minister is. If

37:04

Narendra Modi wins a third term, he'll

37:07

be the only Indian Prime Minister to

37:09

do so since its very first, Jawaharlal

37:11

Nehru. Over the next five years,

37:14

Modi says he plans to make India the

37:17

world's third largest economy. I'm

37:19

afraid that's not the case. I'm afraid

37:21

that's not the case. I'm afraid that's not the

37:23

case. I'm afraid that's not the

37:25

case. In

37:30

his Modi's guarantee platform, he

37:32

lays out a series of

37:34

plans to increase manufacturing, infrastructure

37:37

development and social services for

37:39

the poor. But

37:41

those like Tushar and Suketu, a

37:44

minority, sure, but a vocal

37:46

one, especially internationally, they

37:48

see India's future under Modi

37:50

very differently as a

37:52

place where the story of the country could

37:55

be rewritten. From

37:57

a secular democracy into a

37:59

Hindu supremacy. nation with

38:01

majoritarian politics and

38:03

deepening social divides. At

38:08

a recent election rally, Modi accused

38:10

the rival Congress party of

38:12

giving Muslims first dibs on the

38:15

nation's wealth. He

38:27

warned that under the Congress party,

38:29

public funds would primarily go to

38:31

Muslims, who he referred to

38:33

as quote, those who have more children

38:36

and infiltrators. At

38:41

another rally, Modi proclaimed today,

38:44

even India's enemies know this

38:46

is Modi. This is

38:48

the new India. And

38:51

then he added, this new India

38:53

comes into your home to kill

38:55

you. This

39:05

idea of a new India, it makes

39:07

some people anxious. But

39:09

Suketu finds hope in the people

39:11

of this country themselves. There's

39:14

this passage in his book, Maximum City,

39:16

where he shares what his friend, Asad

39:18

Binsife, told him he holds onto you,

39:21

even amidst violence and strife.

39:25

He says, look to the hands from

39:27

the train. If

39:35

you are late for work in the morning in Bombay and

39:38

you reach the station, just as the

39:40

train is leaving the platform, you

39:43

can run up to the packed compartment and

39:46

you will find many hands stretching out

39:48

to grab you on board and

39:50

folding outward from the train. I

39:57

view them alongside the train. be

40:00

picked up and some tiny space will be

40:02

made for your feet on the edge of

40:04

the open doorway. The rest

40:06

is up to you. You'll probably have

40:08

to hang on to the door

40:11

frame with your fingertips, being

40:13

careful not to lean out too far

40:15

left to get decapitated by a call

40:17

nice to close to the tracks. But

40:20

consider what has happened. Your

40:23

fellow passengers are already

40:25

packed tighter than cattle are legally allowed

40:27

to be. Their shirts already

40:30

drenched in sweat in the

40:32

badly ventilated compartment. And if not like

40:34

this for hours, retain an

40:36

empathy for you. Know that your boss might

40:38

yell at you or cut your pay if

40:40

you miss this train and will

40:42

make space where none exists to

40:45

take one more personal visitor. And

40:50

at the moment of contact, they do

40:52

not know if the hand that you've

40:54

reached for this belongs to a Hindu

40:57

or Muslim or Christian or Brahmin or

40:59

untouchable all day know that

41:01

you trying to get to the city of God and

41:04

that. Come

41:07

on, God, we'll adjust.

41:20

Do you think the hands from this train are still there?

41:23

Yeah, I was in Bombay in January

41:25

and I was at the Bandra train

41:27

station and there was this

41:29

train and the hands were still reaching out.

41:32

The hands are very much still

41:34

there and there are

41:37

still people who are

41:39

being. This

41:50

has been Modi's India Understood. The series

41:53

was produced by CBC Podcast and

41:55

CBC News. You can follow

41:57

Understood on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you

41:59

are. you get your podcast. The

42:05

show was written by producer Joyta

42:07

Sengupta and showrunner Imogen Burchard. With

42:10

me, Salima Shivji. Sound

42:12

design by Julia Whitman with help from Dave

42:14

Mody. Story editing by Damon

42:16

Fairless. Emily Cannell is our

42:18

digital coordinating producer. Our

42:20

podcast art was designed by

42:23

Tara Pockett. Our cross-promo producer

42:25

is Amanda Cox. Our video producers

42:27

are Evan Agard and John Lee. Special

42:30

thanks to Taranam Kamlani and Anand Ra.

42:35

In order of appearance, audio

42:37

from India Today, the YouTube

42:39

channels of Narendra Modi, Hindustan

42:42

Times, Sony Music India, Tips

42:44

Official, Netflix, Yash Raj Films,

42:46

Eros International, Lahari Music T-Series,

42:49

Zee Studios, Kherawat Jain, and

42:51

ANI News. Executive

42:54

producers are Cecil Fernandez, Chris Oak,

42:56

and Nick McCabe-Locos. And

42:58

before we go, if you like this show, try

43:00

the ones you'll find earlier in this feed. The

43:03

last season was called Pornhub Empire

43:05

Understood, and it's all about that

43:08

super popular site you've probably only

43:10

ever accessed on your browser's incognito

43:12

mode. Or there's the first

43:14

season, The Naked Emperor, which tells the

43:16

story of the unlikely rise and spectacular

43:19

fall of Sam Bankman-Fried and

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his doomed crypto empire, FTX. For

43:47

more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca.