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over

1:07

it's unexplainable i'm now i'm hassenfeld

1:10

last year we made in episode all about

1:12

alzheimer's disease

1:13

the professor why new information

1:16

came out that surprised both me and

1:18

unexplainable producer bird pinkerton so

1:21

for the last month we've been digging into

1:23

that story together let

1:25

bird take it from here

1:27

i think i would have liked

1:28

the god brave man

1:30

my memory test of my

1:33

mom was happy and she

1:35

was sharp and she was tough and she

1:37

was the boss to go take

1:39

a smirk to my mom did not

1:41

have really any

1:43

education opportunities that she loved to

1:45

read it when i was in college

1:47

and i was majoring in english majoring would bring home my

1:50

books and she say those

1:52

here

1:53

as you grow older julie's mom

1:55

started struggling with dementia she

1:59

i'm a perfect

1:59

the winner

2:00

she crashed into a parked car

2:03

them into that paranoid she suspected

2:06

family members

2:07

plotting against her she suspected

2:09

the neighbors of plotting against her to

2:11

he says that the specialists said she and her

2:13

mother went to agreed that this is

2:16

probably alzheimer's disease really

2:19

we're hoping that there might be something

2:21

out there that could help she

2:24

had also a librarian who teaches

2:26

people well how to read and parse

2:28

information about science so she

2:31

had done her research and she knew

2:33

the reality is about alzheimer's disease

2:35

she knew that there's no cure that

2:38

there aren't really good treatments out there

2:41

and she even new a fair amount about why

2:44

i read years back that there

2:46

were kind of two different hypotheses

2:49

about what cause alzheimer's and

2:51

that there was some controversy because people felt

2:53

that all the research money was going

2:55

in one direction and that might not have been the correct direction

3:02

hubbard his last year and they're episode

3:04

about alzheimer's disease

3:06

that's a really he idea

3:08

for going to do

3:09

make recap year

3:11

there are a few hypotheses about

3:13

what might cause of i missed than

3:16

people think it's connected to a virus for

3:18

example other people think it's

3:20

connected to a protein called towel that

3:22

the main hypothesis that it's really

3:24

dominated field for almost three decades

3:27

now is called the

3:28

the white have upset

3:30

the basic background here is that there

3:32

are plaques that are found in the brains

3:35

of a lot of alzheimer's these and and

3:37

they form and fragments of proteins are

3:39

known as amyloid beta all

3:41

clumped together and amyloid

3:43

beta pretty segments of the crop up in

3:46

other parts of the brains and and other

3:48

for the amyloid hypothesis

3:50

is that's some form of

3:53

amyloid beta fish

3:54

the culprit here if like me

3:56

if someone in the plaques maybe it's a one

3:58

of

3:58

maybe it all of them

4:00

emily beta

4:02

somehow responsible for alzheimer's in

4:04

the brain except that researchers

4:07

have been targeting forms of

4:09

amyloid beta in the brain for three

4:11

, at this point and that

4:14

hasn't yielded many great result

4:17

though

4:18

that basically is the story

4:20

that truly new

4:22

oh well like bad

4:24

luck there he decides that the funders

4:26

me poor choices in that kind

4:28

of

4:30

the into the greek agency interfax and didn't work

4:32

sometimes syllabus have to live

4:34

through this and reality

4:36

doctors prescribed her mother

4:38

pills but do you remember them being

4:40

in a

4:40

there's a one point she remembers

4:43

going to a specialists and asking what

4:45

can you do for her really what

4:47

can you actually do for her and

4:50

two same

4:54

really anything you know maybe

4:57

know maybe ten years

4:58

the was it was so it was so disheartening

5:03

you know this year to his mother dorothy

5:05

died eighty nine then

5:08

in july and article came out

5:10

in science magazine that was making a id

5:12

bombshell of the claim this article

5:15

with did a t alzheimer's study from two

5:17

thousand say paper that

5:19

had helped shape sixteen years of alzheimer's

5:21

research that it helps support that

5:24

all important emulate hypothesis

5:27

this article in science magazine

5:29

set two thousand six paper

5:32

dr to evidence

5:34

and at and that it might so signs

5:37

of serious misconduct as

5:39

like that sounds absurd that can't possibly

5:42

be true but the more she read the

5:44

more it seem to julie that maybe

5:46

it wasn't it wasn't luck that researchers

5:49

had spent so many years so focused

5:51

on the amulet hypothesis doing

5:53

all timers research that hadn't necessarily

5:55

lead to my

5:56

maybe it was the result

5:58

of this potential

5:59

the act

6:01

the new that would supporting on this issue ran with

6:03

a very similar idea

6:07

a global developing story of

6:09

what could be the biggest medical scandal

6:11

and decades the data behind the most influential

6:14

theory of what causes alzheimers disease

6:16

may have been manipulated

6:18

the study of more than sixteen years

6:20

of research was based on had

6:22

tampered with the results and if that

6:24

turns out

6:25

the true it means about a billion

6:27

dollars and us taxpayer money use for alzheimer's

6:30

research over the past sixteen years

6:32

they have been or nothing

6:33

how about all research recover

6:35

from a decade-and-a-half long? wild goose

6:38

chase and lost opportunity to

6:40

find effective treatments understandably

6:42

really was really

6:44

frustrated by all i

6:46

felt like the scientist had

6:48

potentially robbed my

6:51

mother any and

6:53

our family

6:55

the

6:56

near the of her life the

6:58

time and

7:00

it's not definite perception

7:03

the resources hadn't directed toward

7:06

the race purposes

7:08

there would have been something to help or now she might

7:10

not still be alive because she had other health problems

7:13

he might have been happier she might

7:15

have been less paranoid

7:19

and i start

7:22

outraged and herbie

7:25

when i talk to the reporter who actually

7:28

wrote this bombshell piece for science

7:30

though he basically said

7:32

that people i truly families of alzheimer's

7:34

patients they have every right to be

7:36

mad the media narrative

7:39

around his story isn't quite

7:41

accurate yeah this

7:43

study had potentially manipulated evidence

7:45

and yes it does seem

7:48

like it wasn't important study that

7:50

there is more complicated

7:52

and maybe even more interesting

7:55

story here

7:57

the seek an unexplainable

7:59

this bombshell investigation and

8:02

science magazine actually mean what

8:04

does it mean for alzheimer's research both past

8:06

and future and what does it mean

8:08

for families like druids

8:12

well let me put it this way

8:16

i think would be a mistake to extrapolate

8:19

out and say because this body of

8:21

work the suspect

8:23

that it applies

8:24

the all kinds of other research in the field

8:27

i promised charles pillar he is

8:29

an investigative reporter at science magazine

8:31

and he spent many months investigating

8:34

inviting the bombshell piece that came

8:36

out in july phase

8:38

one of the most important moments in the story

8:40

starts around who doesn't

8:43

x when of famers research was

8:46

at a crossroads like at this point

8:48

people already spent over a decade working

8:50

really hard on the employed hypothesis

8:53

they had been trying to find ways to it's

8:55

clear that he fell and

8:57

amyloid beta it's out of

8:59

people's brain

9:01

and what they found was that in drug

9:03

for drug trial after trial

9:06

these

9:07

the techniques of targeting amyloid

9:09

deposits fail

9:11

the lot of the drugs were doing what they were designed

9:13

to do they were attacking amway

9:15

build ups but they were not really helping

9:17

peace they did not improve

9:19

cognition the meaningful way

9:22

and they did not prevent

9:24

alzheimer's disease though by

9:27

two thousand two thousand there was growing skepticism

9:29

in the world of research associated with

9:31

this idea that the amyloid hypothesis

9:34

might be the key securing the disease

9:39

though of famers researchers can i had a

9:41

choice in front of them are crossroads one

9:44

hand one option is deserted

9:47

maybe move away from the employed hypothesis

9:49

dead babies spend more

9:51

money more money theories of the

9:53

these like the idea that it was caused

9:55

by a virus for example and

9:57

that would lead to said different experiments

9:59

the potentially different drugs

10:02

the other option with said double

10:04

down on the amyloid hypothesis into

10:07

refocusing a bed and

10:10

would look like was that was

10:12

lot of the research up until this point had point

10:14

had on the kind

10:16

of the amyloid beta that was nice to keep

10:18

lacks in the brains but researchers

10:21

were getting curious about

10:22

other form of amyloid beta the world

10:25

though in the brain these more soluble

10:27

form these these wonder would dissolve

10:29

and liquid

10:29

the ugly

10:31

they hadn't been

10:33

investigated as much scientists thought

10:35

that maybe these soluble forms as

10:37

amyloid beer

10:38

could be the future of

10:40

amway research

10:45

again it's crawford's we have

10:47

people trying to figure out but they're gonna do where

10:50

are influential controversial

10:53

bit of research some said there's

10:55

the work of several scientists including

10:58

to important co op

11:00

aaron ass and so much

11:02

less ne

11:03

the at the university of minnesota

11:05

karen ass was an eminent and

11:07

highly regarded all simers researcher

11:10

in silver unless they was

11:12

her protege very up

11:15

and coming promising scientists

11:17

working in our lab

11:19

these agree with so valleys day and care nasa

11:21

done with they had taken one of these

11:23

soluble forms of amyloid beta

11:26

and

11:26

and they injected into

11:28

rats

11:29

almost immediately the rest

11:31

started to have memory problems

11:35

for example

11:36

being unable to identify

11:38

portions of amazed that they had previously

11:40

learned that a

11:43

can in many ways to the symptoms

11:45

of alzheimer's disease

11:47

the experiment was actually kind

11:49

of mind blowing in the fields because it was

11:51

oh clear and almost linear like

11:54

so that you could inject this farm family beat us

11:56

and then see something

11:57

all camera symptoms show up

11:59

and even know is just and rodents it attracted

12:02

attention because it was just hiding

12:04

partial relationship not

12:06

just a causal relationship but one that could

12:08

be demonstrated experimental it

12:10

and that was the key

12:12

in a super can

12:13

using field you had this clear

12:16

solid finding that suggested that these

12:18

soluble kinds of them were beta we're

12:21

connected to alzheimer's

12:23

and you can think of this research almost

12:26

like a neon sign that

12:28

pops up right next to the crossroads

12:30

and said

12:31

hey

12:32

keep going on this ama it

12:34

hypothesis bass lake you need only

12:36

detained pads

12:38

there's something here

12:39

and that's why

12:41

this breathtaking study in two

12:43

thousand and six turned over the table

12:46

on alzheimer's disease and got

12:48

people thinking about it in about new way and

12:51

really

12:52

a man skeptics and among

12:54

those who are discouraged about

12:56

the lack of therapeutic process

12:59

they finally

13:01

realized wait this may be

13:04

allows us to have more hope in the

13:06

am white our paths this and how it might cure the

13:08

disease

13:09

where'd some of the coverage of

13:11

all this has gone a bit a stray so

13:14

some be really clear here the

13:16

study of not the only study that

13:18

is ever appointed researchers in this direction

13:21

like other research did eventually come

13:23

out suggesting that saw you old

13:25

amyloid were potentially good bet

13:27

this is not like the foundation on

13:29

which this

13:31

the address

13:32

the study one

13:34

really important felt like after it came out

13:37

funding for research into various forms

13:39

of the are your bowl amyloid beta

13:42

exploded

13:43

gary it's went from spending a

13:45

few million dollars in two thousand

13:48

six on this topic who

13:50

over two hundred and eighty million

13:52

in two thousand twenty one

13:54

pharma companies are sent billions of dollars developing

13:56

in and doing

13:57

what i'll on drugs that tackles

13:59

i

13:59

forms of amyloid beta which

14:02

i might add so far has sailed

14:05

study after study trials israel

14:07

drug drug

14:08

research from two thousand six is also

14:11

been cited thousands of times

14:13

like towel says it's one of the most faded

14:15

basically bird in alzheimer's research

14:18

in other words

14:19

there's one of the most important studies

14:21

as far as how it shaped people's thinking

14:24

about the field of any study

14:26

published in the last sixteen years

14:28

which is white house's so shocked

14:30

last year when when he learned there might be something

14:33

seriously wrong with this two thousand

14:35

six research

14:37

though i'm here's how it went

14:41

the late november or early december i

14:44

became connected with a whistleblower

14:47

murray within the system

14:49

for better at vanderbilt university

14:51

named mathew schrag and before

14:53

he reached out to charles matthew saga been

14:55

non and of a long research

14:58

journey that that the short version is that

15:00

basically to investors decide the

15:02

to bet against an upcoming

15:05

of famers drugs are they thought that the science

15:07

behind it was kind a suspect though

15:09

they hired a lawyer he hired matthew

15:12

i'm matthew got paid to look

15:15

into the researchers that of famers dragon

15:17

see that had any problems and

15:19

a true matthew because he's he's really

15:21

good at looking at a particular type

15:23

of image that comes up in a lot of alzheimer's

15:25

keepers this thing called a western

15:27

blot which basically shows

15:30

you which proteins are in a sample

15:32

at any given point in time and so

15:34

what schrag as an expert in

15:36

is looking at these blogs the

15:39

see whether there are telltale signs

15:41

of doctoring

15:42

matthew will look for for hadn't paste

15:44

marks for example or like weird

15:46

issues with the background of the blights

15:49

kind of like internet detective to can look that

15:51

like a celebrity's instagram photo and

15:53

tell you all the ways that it's unfiltered or

15:55

photo shopped but for like the

15:58

people that scientific evidence

15:59

oh i first met

16:02

he was looking for these photo shop be things

16:04

in the research related to this one's

16:06

the

16:07

that all famers drag the

16:09

ban he broadened the search and

16:12

he continued to

16:14

hi to understand better the extent

16:16

to which these kinds of problems

16:19

not only affected that drug

16:21

but also other developments in

16:24

research and the all simers field

16:26

which is how matthew fag eventually

16:28

wound up looking at that two thousand six

16:30

research that research invaded

16:32

so many times and he wound up

16:34

analyzing the evidence and at and

16:37

when he did

16:37

the alone behold image

16:40

after image showed

16:42

signs of doctoring is vitally

16:45

important paper image after image after image

16:47

says showed signs of doctor

16:51

the and matthew ended up looking at a whole

16:53

bunch of different papers and a

16:55

kind of pattern emerged were one

16:57

of the coauthors on the state two thousand six taper

17:00

this guy named us of on his name he

17:02

had had of potentially problematic

17:04

works matthew and up looking

17:06

at around twenty of silvana as

17:09

these papers overall

17:10

in in almost every case he

17:12

found image after him as

17:14

problem at a problem

17:16

because there is a sort of big broad

17:19

pattern as potentially problematic evidence

17:21

and savannas his work it

17:23

was really hard for matthew and charles

17:25

to look at it and say okay maybe

17:27

this maybe this a mistake and one paper or

17:29

something like it really seems like round

17:32

two question that influential research from two

17:34

thousand sex and to question

17:36

it's conclusion

17:38

i suddenly realized

17:40

that i had something on my hands that i hadn't

17:42

bargained for something that could have

17:44

brought influence the field

17:46

after all if this is true than

17:49

often was researchers have been citing a steady

17:51

with manipulated data for

17:53

sixteen years

17:55

i wanted to be cautious here

17:57

so far i have was this guy

17:59

it's entered the university who was

18:02

thinking about this was concerned about

18:04

though he reached out to a whole bunch of

18:06

expert forensic image experts

18:09

are all hammers researchers who are lasted

18:11

me i'm light hypothesis and of

18:14

i'm earth researchers who are skeptical of it's

18:17

and he's damn matthews analysis of the two thousand

18:19

six steady and some of the others

18:21

so valleys name

18:22

papers you'd like

18:24

and when i found was they were all of

18:26

one mind about it

18:31

expert after expert

18:33

in samaras disease

18:35

and also and forensic chemist analysis

18:38

agreed that

18:40

the tracks analysis was cogent it

18:42

was clear who was well supported

18:45

in it raise really serious questions

18:48

they didn't all agree on every

18:50

single image arm but he says

18:52

that they did agree that that something

18:54

was wrong or something was fishy about

18:57

many of the images that were presented as

18:59

evidence the newspaper

19:01

whether it's fraud you have to go to and ten

19:04

ten am and i was going to the minds of the

19:06

scientists that that times i think what

19:08

i would call it is

19:10

the parent misconduct the now

19:12

causes that with more questions like

19:14

is this product happened why

19:16

did it happen and what would it mean

19:19

for also

19:19

the retired

19:21

after the break will actually speak with

19:23

one of the coauthors of the original

19:25

two thousand and six steady and

19:28

tried to get some answers

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that v o c d o sea

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unexplainable

22:19

one of the most influential said he is

22:21

an alzheimer's research may have

22:23

been the unexplainable podcast from

22:26

xbox

22:27

the year do we know

22:28

do not move x a study with

22:30

bush had out shape alzheimer's research

22:33

basically it's how to keep the

22:34

the owed focused on the emulate hypothesis

22:37

at a time when people were starting to

22:39

considered other option that

22:42

research has evidence that seems

22:44

to have been doctored as images that show

22:46

signs of copying and pasting

22:48

and and their problems though

22:51

the host of an example know i'm and i

22:53

we've reached out to obama

22:56

say and current ass to of the

22:58

main coauthors on the two thousand six papers

23:00

just to try and understand why this had

23:02

happened the valid made

23:05

did not respond to requests for comment

23:07

or the university of minnesota did say

23:10

they were falling or view process and

23:12

couldn't comment further

23:14

the current ass did agree to seek with

23:17

i'm karen ass i

23:20

have been studying alzheimer's disease

23:22

and neurodegenerative diseases for

23:25

the last thirty five years harry

23:27

did lead the lab that this two thousand and

23:29

six research came from

23:31

but have to be clear in matthew

23:33

fags analysis her other work

23:35

for studies

23:36

that don't involve this coauthor summers

23:38

nice that work seems to

23:40

be queen and and with doctor

23:43

and

23:44

oh no i'm and i were ask me her specifically

23:46

this two thousand and six research with

23:48

savannah

23:50

i want to just ask you about

23:52

what charles rate and his key switches

23:54

the convention met him a two thousand and six paper

23:57

and then in other papers there were signs that the

23:59

west

23:59

in blots were either tampered with

24:02

or maybe there were bolland backgrounds

24:04

that were merged together and bands moved around

24:08

do you see any validity in those claims

24:11

well there's universal agreement

24:13

that the issue of you raised serious

24:16

and it simply shouldn't happen

24:18

was he acknowledges that there were some potentially

24:20

altered images turn as does

24:23

disagree with some of the issues that matthew

24:25

shrug found with that

24:26

that and six research on this

24:28

particular paper most

24:31

of the

24:33

fan

24:34

they do the majority of them

24:37

were

24:38

like printing error

24:40

only two of them were really

24:43

examples of altered figures

24:46

the also maintains that the science at the core

24:48

of the paper is still valid

24:50

well in this case

24:52

the

24:54

the king of the images

24:56

in read sheriff

24:58

of up the plot that

25:00

was unrelated to the data

25:03

related to the experiment

25:05

if

25:06

and so be conclusion

25:09

from look

25:10

the not apply

25:12

one

25:13

he used

25:15

she told us later by email that she doesn't

25:17

have access to the original blot images

25:19

but she personally observed a lot of them

25:22

as they

25:22

hot off the presses or sort

25:24

of

25:24

what bang so she is confident

25:27

because of that that if the images were

25:29

altered it did not

25:30

conclusion that the paper

25:32

we're know i'm and i push back a bit

25:35

if they didn't alter the conclusions did you have

25:37

any reason to suspect why they may have been

25:39

added

25:41

you know

25:42

i keep asking myself over

25:44

and over again and either

25:46

the the individual

25:48

oh well

25:50

for

25:52

generating the lights

25:54

then i'd not received an answer

25:58

and

25:59

i guess

26:00

when i hear of

26:02

result being

26:04

you know

26:05

hampered way of manipulated in some way

26:08

i think that oh there there

26:10

must be a reason behind it and

26:12

that reason seems reasonably to assume

26:14

that it's too

26:16

demonstrate a result that may not have been

26:18

there otherwise

26:20

so what is the case that this is

26:23

the are valid like why wouldn't tampering

26:26

of images invalidate the results

26:28

well in this case

26:31

the

26:32

irritating of the images

26:34

in read sheriff

26:36

of up the plot that

26:39

was unrelated be

26:41

gave you that that

26:43

the experiment nice intended

26:46

q

26:47

to on

26:51

it were unrelated

26:53

the data related to the

26:55

experiment itself

26:57

and for be conclusion

27:00

from look

27:01

the not apply

27:03

one

27:04

it's here

27:07

sorry if these regions were tampered web is

27:09

these images they were not

27:11

in regions that affected the results there

27:14

seems to be no reason to tamper with

27:16

those images those images it seems like what you're

27:18

saying could be any images because

27:20

they wouldn't have affected the results

27:23

yeah i guess like i don't i it doesn't

27:25

seem clear to me

27:26

how the results could be unaffected

27:29

by manipulated him

27:31

now i have to say that

27:34

i don't understand

27:36

why the images were altered

27:40

it seemed to me as though

27:43

they were cleaning up

27:46

making the blocks look a little

27:48

better i'm in the sense

27:50

that they were cleaner but

27:53

it did not

27:55

stir

27:56

the conclusion

27:59

the paper

27:59

all the conclusion of

28:02

the experiment itself

28:03

no i think it's

28:06

purple to me

28:08

i think

28:09

shirley

28:11

very

28:12

it happened

28:14

a forensic analyst who most

28:16

of the images for charles and she said that

28:18

she wouldn't trust any bird that had

28:21

altered images because images

28:23

courtesy the tip of the iceberg much harder

28:26

to spot alterations in alterations bar graph

28:28

for example where you into the leader number

28:30

and pop and another one so if there's

28:32

an altered image in a paper even if

28:34

it's cleaning up it could be

28:36

a sign that other data has and altered

28:39

nevertheless karen stand by the conclusions

28:41

of her research so firmly that

28:43

cfc things more money should be invested

28:46

into that specific kind as amyloid

28:48

beta that see tested with which she

28:50

referred to as a type one a like

28:52

i'm are so

28:54

i asked her about that

28:56

i hear what you're saying that they're printing error

28:58

is a hear what you're saying about lake

29:01

you still feeling confident about the

29:03

the central result that

29:05

was generated

29:07

that i think i would be hesitant

29:09

personally if someone said to me

29:12

there is this two thousand and six

29:14

paper

29:15

and it has potentially

29:18

flawed

29:19

image is

29:21

why it holds up i promise

29:23

and it's the type one illegal

29:25

the we should invest in

29:27

the type one illegal man

29:29

maybe that's the future

29:32

do you understand i

29:34

guess where guess where coming from

29:36

the on my hesitation there are

29:39

my sort of yes it's

29:41

years and really is absolutely

29:43

understandable

29:45

and if i said earlier there

29:48

is

29:48

the consensus on what to do

29:50

when this happened

29:52

and people are they say

29:54

think you just throw the whole thing out and

29:56

start all over again

29:58

the other people say wait

30:00

oh good these alterations

30:02

really changed the basic

30:05

fundamental conclusion

30:08

and it is a complex problem

30:11

no two cases are like

30:14

and it needs to be

30:17

evaluated

30:18

on an individual case and

30:21

carefully

30:22

that fully

30:24

there are is correct that there is little

30:27

consensus

30:27

the about what to do next but carl

30:30

taylor says that most of the research

30:32

he spoke to for a piece differ

30:35

from the assumption that if this paper does

30:37

have altered images it shouldn't

30:39

be relied on science

30:40

agreed

30:42

for what they actually disagree on is

30:44

what is potentially altered images mean

30:46

for how to move for the with other research

30:49

there were different approach different thoughts

30:52

about that some people do take

30:54

a a really hard stance on what the

30:56

signs of misconduct in this paper mean

30:59

one of the experts why consulted

31:01

with was the die by

31:03

the name of tom

31:05

suit off at stanford university he's a

31:07

nobel laureate and his

31:10

view was that the ramifications

31:12

were wasted thinking wasted

31:15

effort in the field

31:17

when i first read the signs article i thought

31:19

something like this i thought that these potentially

31:22

altered images could mean that

31:24

sixteen years worth of alzheimer's science

31:27

with

31:27

the misguided

31:29

that's it is what the media narrative

31:32

around this is then i think it's what

31:34

to leave the woman whose mom had

31:36

dementia i think of it see thought to

31:40

there has been a fair amount of push

31:42

back on that you but his researchers

31:44

is spent a long time working

31:46

on amyloid beta research

31:49

they say something like

31:50

it's it's terrible that someone might

31:52

have falsified research that has

31:54

been influential but

31:58

regardless of that

32:00

that not a parent

32:02

agreed check like maybe the paper

32:04

was a signpost that helped point

32:06

research and a new director and but

32:08

it's not the foundation on which all their

32:10

research rak many of them are not

32:12

even researching the exact same kind

32:14

of amyloid beta as the one in the two thousand

32:17

six safer

32:17

so

32:19

not only were the last sixteen years

32:21

not a total waste of time but

32:23

also some people say

32:24

we should stick to the emulator opposite

32:27

everything's fine let's just keep on track

32:30

underhand baird these people are coming

32:32

bomb

32:33

i have great respect for many of the scientists

32:35

who have been exploring amyloid reasons

32:39

behind us amherst i have great

32:41

respect for the worth that they've done and

32:43

i think some of it may still be fruitful

32:45

important i'm not suggesting

32:48

that it's all that spells

32:51

all of it

32:52

the predator that a middle ground here like

32:54

a place in between dismissing

32:56

the last the near the researchers junk science

32:59

and saying oh no everything fine

33:01

and we should just continue to invest

33:03

the amway hypothesis

33:05

this exposes something that's critical

33:07

for that amyloid research

33:09

community to look at carefully and

33:12

a rethink their position

33:14

kind of thinking this potential of conduct

33:17

should be like a wakeup call because

33:19

if this paper was being cited giving

33:22

people confidence that they were headed in the right

33:24

direction the now

33:26

sixteen years later researchers are not

33:29

any closer to solving all famers

33:31

then why not

33:33

use this as opportunity to take a good

33:35

hard look in the mirror the ask

33:37

some basic questions

33:39

are other areas of research that

33:41

we have neglected because of the

33:43

dominance

33:44

this idea in the amyloid

33:46

research world that

33:48

now should be reinvigorated and rethought

33:52

scientists have spent hundreds of millions of

33:54

dollars and three decades

33:56

on different versions of the amulet hypothesis

33:58

chasing different in that amyloid beta

34:01

in the brain i'm not

34:03

investment hasn't really paid off

34:05

they don't have a chair or

34:07

really good treatments to give the

34:09

millions of people suffering from alzheimer's

34:13

maybe the discovery of these potentially

34:16

doctor images could be

34:18

the reset button the are like a moment

34:20

to say okay it's time to shift

34:22

a lot more money and a lot more time

34:25

into other hypotheses

34:31

the tail end of pulling the story together i

34:33

caught up truly goldberg again that woman

34:36

whose mother suffered from dementia then

34:38

i told her about this conversation that i'd had

34:40

with child basically this idea that

34:42

the potential misconduct in the two thousand

34:44

six paper didn't totally invalidate

34:47

sixteen years worth of research

34:49

that i wasn't

34:50

quite as bad as the tv

34:53

stories might have made it seem

34:56

i don't think

34:57

newton

34:59

it didn't change the story all that much

35:01

for me i'm , glad

35:04

to hear the news that you're telling me that and

35:06

maybe wouldn't wait didn't have

35:08

quite as much of a negative impact as

35:11

it initially appeared but ultimately

35:14

i think my frustration is the same that somebody

35:16

took advantage of the system

35:18

and had they not done that we

35:21

might have been further along than we would

35:24

i , know there were no treatments and there were no

35:26

choose thought

35:28

i don't you know i don't feel qualified

35:31

the wade into the last sixteen years of

35:33

research and to sift through figure out

35:35

how much of it with a waste of time in the how

35:37

much of it contributed to you know to

35:40

basic science and to developing treatments

35:43

i know that for my mother there was nothing

35:47

pretty clear about what you'd like to see in

35:50

the future that she says she's

35:52

like to see the field of alzheimer's research

35:54

change

35:55

that's what gives her some hope in all

35:57

that

35:58

i didn't it

35:59

me i mean if we're if we're going to

36:02

stop chasing the wrong hypothesis

36:04

and throwing billions of dollars that you

36:06

have hope probably more hope now

36:09

then there's been any time the last fifty years

36:11

but

36:11

you know that hope could have gotten here a lot sooner

36:14

and maybe soon enough to help my mother

36:27

this episode was produced by bird pinkerton

36:30

me know i'm hassenfeld it

36:32

was edited by meredith had not catherine

36:34

wells and brain resnick meredith

36:36

did some amazing clipboard to i

36:39

read the music christian a our handled

36:41

mixing and sound design and serena

36:43

so meant it as fact checking you'd

36:45

shot at this arena because this was definitely

36:47

a complicated one also

36:49

to elizabeth pick for her time and

36:52

demanding when who's awesome were dreaming

36:54

of electric pigeons if

36:56

you want to hear more about alzheimer's research

36:58

and the amyloid hypothesis in particular

37:01

check out our episode from september twenty

37:03

twenty one

37:04

the called what causes alzheimers

37:07

you can find charles pillars reporting in science

37:09

magazine the article is called

37:11

blots on a field and it's definitely

37:13

worth a read derek lowe

37:16

is follow up peace faked beta amyloid

37:18

data what does it mean it's

37:20

also really helpful if you want more information

37:23

you have a minute to leave us a review or rating

37:25

we'd love that we also love to hear from

37:27

you were at unexplainable at vox

37:29

that time unexplainable is

37:32

part of the vox media podcast network

37:34

and will be back next week

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