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if we could change, that Are you sleeping

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1:27

The unexplainable

1:29

I'm no on Hassenfeld. Hi

1:31

fi movies have predicted with build

1:34

all sorts of futuristic tech by now.

1:36

Flying cars hover boards, time

1:38

machines and, so far

1:41

it doesn't look like or anywhere near actually

1:43

making them What we might

1:45

be closer than you think to figuring out

1:48

how leprosy?

1:49

Our friends over at explained recently made

1:51

a great on the latest telepathic

1:53

Tech. They get into how excited

1:56

or skeptical we should be

1:58

and wanted to share with. you. Three.

2:00

There's one of the house or the show some

2:02

monastery.

2:10

What you're hearing right now is a German

2:12

guy asking his wife to go get

2:14

a mixer puree some soup

2:17

for him.

2:18

The reason it sounds kind

2:20

of funky is because he's

2:22

asking her using only his thoughts.

2:25

you're hearing real time activity

2:28

brain activity that this person

2:30

now has to sort of actively seek.

2:32

actively bunch and eight Who

2:34

his own mind? Totally paralyzed

2:37

person asked. his wife the puree

2:39

some soup using only his

2:42

thoughts that request Thanks

2:44

to a brain implants. manifested

2:46

not and words but notes and,

2:49

that's his sort of most basic form of communication

2:52

despite being in a completely locked

2:54

in state on today explained we're

2:56

getting closer to telepathy with fully

2:58

locked in paralyzed people

3:10

They explained I'm Sean Ramos

3:13

from I'm joined by Jonathan Moments,

3:15

freelance science journalist, and we're going to talk

3:17

about a guy whose name we actually

3:19

don't know.

3:20

No. One really knows them because of for privacy

3:22

reasons it's sort of kept secret, but he's

3:25

the star of the story he was diagnosed

3:27

with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis

3:29

a or less ah. This is a condition

3:32

that entails sort of a losing

3:34

sort of brain cells in your brain and spinal cords and

3:36

degenerate over time and these are related

3:39

to motor countries use. Of lose

3:41

the ability to move and you put

3:43

prickly and up quite a

3:45

mobilize sort of totally paralyzed and so the person

3:47

he was fine as states

3:50

tigers, Southern City and. Eventually he

3:52

cites news, all of this motor control

3:54

be still able to communicate with designs,

3:56

how do you communicate with their eyes? Right,

3:59

so he communicates. 'Cause he can move

4:01

his eyes when horizontal and up and down

4:03

directions of it is and since

4:05

the his family had devised a sort of

4:07

pen and paper scheme which involves having,

4:10

these for coming second he says like

4:12

red yellow green and blue and

4:14

each color has A list

4:16

of lessons say Yellow has a

4:18

B C D Hannan

4:21

Green has he as key age

4:23

is not actually those but it's something along those lines

4:25

they skipped classes of letters and each color and.

4:28

so through i movements he said yes and no so

4:30

they points at yellow he says yes Then

4:33

they missed that each letter, and he says yes

4:35

or no. The problem here that he know

4:37

he's aware that this ability to speak with his eyes

4:39

is temporary and so he asks

4:42

an assembly realizes that he wants some

4:44

kind of strategy to go beyond this as

4:46

things get increasingly worse assembly.

4:49

reaches out to these brain scientists this

4:51

guy called meals per ballmer And

4:53

the other scientists cold. Which we'll

4:56

choudhary? And so they tell

4:58

him, like, we might have a method for you, and they were like,

5:00

maybe we just need to some actually get into the brain

5:02

and solved the sky.

5:06

Then. Implants is to sort of chips

5:09

and these chips have sixty four

5:11

my crew electrodes and that said, like this,

5:13

seems to think about this microchip and, like sixty

5:15

four the no. teeth almost

5:18

they put these in the outer layer of the train

5:20

specific in apart both and motor control

5:22

so hand movements, especially a think, is

5:24

what they're focusing at the time" And,

5:26

those electrodes that have been have pick up the signal

5:29

of the brain activity and directly

5:31

ha Nothing is on the outer

5:33

layer of your head, it's and has actually

5:36

directly physically inside

5:38

your brain. How does this technology

5:40

work? If you think

5:42

of neurons being brain cells

5:45

they, have would have known as action

5:47

potentials as had sort of drive

5:49

activity to pass on information is

5:51

sort of like a wire passing on

5:53

electrical information. and

5:56

so these micro electrodes able

5:58

to detect he sort of Very.

6:00

Small scale electrical activity

6:02

in specific parts of the brain if we asked

6:05

the man whose name I do not know

6:07

if we asked him to, imagine

6:10

something because he can't. Move if you ask

6:12

me to imagine moving his hand the maybe we can get

6:14

a response from that is directly

6:17

picked up by these micro electrodes, so

6:20

that's kind. Of the I do okay how does it, go to

6:23

the spent think eighty six days just

6:25

trying the soundtrack the city can elicit. electrical

6:27

activity for hand movements

6:30

are movement tongue movement none

6:32

of that works out

6:36

So there's a sort of ah ha moments I guess serve

6:38

the breakthrough moment is when meals per Ballmer

6:41

tells. the why don't we try to somewhat

6:44

unusual technique colds or

6:47

the tree neurofeedback

6:49

The auditory neurofeedback

6:52

that's right yep, what is it?

6:54

Essentially, what you doing is you're providing

6:57

the person with real time

6:59

activity of what's going on in their own

7:01

brain. Then and in this case.

7:04

A sound since getting real same activity

7:06

on his own brain cells in.

7:09

the form assumed that he can then

7:11

modulate activity by changing his

7:13

thoughts Then by being provided this constant

7:15

feedback of what's going on in his brain is

7:18

and us, or can you push it up or can

7:20

you push it down and you dial it up,

7:22

can you dial it down to new dial up

7:24

or down the south Yes,

7:26

exactly, and he does this. Thinking

7:29

of something and I was, it is able

7:31

of just sort of boosting that signal up.

7:34

Boosting it down and is some pretty heady

7:36

stuff so help us understand how

7:38

exactly.

7:40

This allows them to communicate

7:42

with them right, yes, there are two.

7:45

Main faded service and it's. Quite

7:48

complicated but hopefully we'll get through this that's

7:50

the first stage is basically training

7:53

your training this guy to the of the say yes or no

7:55

that's the goal to, have you make him say yes

7:57

or no the first thing? is

7:59

to Basically, given what's known as

8:02

a Target tone either. A high note.

8:05

Or eleven Oaks and

8:07

that's the tone that he has to match with

8:09

his mind. Through pushing up the

8:11

second sound, that'll describe. Now say

8:14

he gets the first note. it's a high note. The

8:16

or whatever. it is then

8:18

He's provided of second sound and

8:21

that also prompted him to start the trial,

8:23

is you call it okay now the second sounds here?

8:26

Try to push the sound too much. That

8:29

is for Sunday, the hurt.

8:35

And as he manipulates his own brain activity, you

8:37

hear a series of tones that are

8:39

hopefully getting closer to the target to. And.

8:45

Every time he gets it right, he's actually getting a cash

8:47

reward and a former, it's just like a sound that makes like

8:49

to team or something like this,

8:51

so anyway this. Is kind of like this operant conditioning

8:54

where you just priming this person to just

8:56

keep learning how to say yes, keep on how to say

8:59

no, keep doing what you need. To do to

9:01

be able to get that activity up and down doesn't really

9:03

matter what you do to be honest as long as you get it to

9:05

that point.

9:09

So how did these experiments progress

9:11

as a just yes is a nose and hitting the

9:13

right note for forever?

9:16

Right? So it's a lot of that honestly and

9:18

when he got really good, it did when the essentially when

9:20

he got eight percent of these correct, he would move

9:22

onto the next. Phase every,

9:25

few weeks they would come in and they would do this training

9:27

with him, you know conditioning him

9:29

to be would say yes or, no and then. one

9:31

sense and he gets eight percent

9:34

of the Accuracy correct.

9:36

He then ends

9:38

up during the Spanish section

9:41

so this is the Morris it was weird

9:43

and spooky sections us here is when

9:45

he applies yes a nose to.

9:48

a schemer like schemer had learned before with his family

9:51

The very similar one actually. Are you

9:53

able to say yes or no to specific less?

10:02

And then thereby formulating

10:05

actual words, sentences. The

10:08

entire expression the with the to

10:10

elicit is.

10:13

Look closely,

10:16

with the island been larger all right

10:18

the news as talk. to

10:20

other as

10:25

And following this tedious process, the it

10:27

is he didn't see it.

10:31

The a single thing's in German and

10:34

the if you translate these things, the Germans

10:36

to English, they are things like.

10:39

I want coolest soup or mom

10:42

had massage since a lot of a sort of direct

10:44

and status or our

10:47

to listen to cool rafa

10:49

on the fence.

10:57

Or Harry Potato and follow

10:59

the super, earths

11:02

and assembly of food and music

11:04

and year and year wedding to watch movies

11:07

that his son was done how the oldest

11:09

son was that i am i think he was quite

11:11

young okay so sorry guys hungry

11:14

and he loves beer and he loves to

11:17

All. That aside what's happening here

11:20

is, hugely the story, yeah,

11:22

I mean it is kind of like his breakthrough study

11:25

many ways as ways first timer for a fully

11:27

paralyzed. Prisoners able to communicate as this

11:29

length this able to communicate entire, sentences

11:32

it was express themselves people who are family

11:35

run as his have as lot of hope of marketing.

11:37

Technology because suddenly is seen

11:40

as his ability to find any

11:42

communicate to some extent right, even if it's very slow,

11:44

this is kind of like this amazing to Consonant's

11:47

great advancement. In science, and technology

11:50

but There are very,

11:52

very good reasons to be skeptical a.

11:54

lot of scientists question and niels

11:57

bohr bomber and at which was her

11:59

diary specifically And setting

12:01

to give me the season tickets to the big

12:03

grain of salt.

12:47

It. Depends on the show comes from Mattress

12:50

Are, you sleeping, it's a question that's

12:52

pretty hard to answer with answer yes and

12:55

it's also a new podcast from the Sleep. Experts

12:57

but mattress from produced with a box, creative

13:00

for so many people getting enough sleep is

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13:04

burn the candle at both candle and

13:06

quality rest. Is often the first thing

13:08

we sacrifice, wouldn't it be nice

13:10

if we just needed way less sleep,

13:13

I mean, if I were able to get by on within like

13:15

four hours? like try to record

13:17

a full length album I finally

13:20

get around to reading more, in Peace I'd,

13:22

probably enjoy mornings

13:25

in the latest episode of Are You Sleeping Host?

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night, to feel their best and she talks

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genetic mutations might actually,

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It's easy to forget that we are a

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Listen to chasing life wherever you get your

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podcasts.

14:30

They. Explained: "You've heard about the breakthrough

14:32

signs of fully locked in paralyzed

14:34

person talking using thoughts read

14:36

by a brain implant translated

14:39

into yeses and knows that

14:41

then correspond to letters that. Make complete

14:43

sentences like, could you get me

14:45

a beer? The a massage, my

14:47

head or. The war. Hurry!

14:49

With Potato, but now we gotta talk about

14:52

the dude behind the experiment,

14:54

and why bunch of their peers don't really trust

14:56

them to help with that we read so to make?

14:59

In a case of and she's a biotech reporter

15:01

for Stat News, and she recently wrote

15:03

about Neil's beer bomber and

15:06

who dwell southerly.

15:07

Their. Hands does was quite amazing, you know,

15:09

and it was published and on of the top journals

15:12

in the world but few years ago their work

15:14

was completely discredited they,

15:16

did. Something pretty similar with that Ls

15:18

patients it wasn't brain implant but

15:20

they used a brain computer interface where

15:22

they put electrodes on patient's

15:25

scalp. and they

15:27

found out a way to communicate with them through

15:29

yes or no answer But then

15:31

someone. The universe is to begin,

15:33

they tested the data again. And

15:35

try to replicate it and. The

15:38

claims that it was wrong. The sell,

15:40

yes, and basically destroyed their careers.

15:42

That mean they're trying to sort of redeem themselves

15:45

with this new experiment. So

15:48

I think so. We'll tell me a little

15:50

bit more about these two scientists for start

15:52

with meals, beer, but.

15:54

Are you the pretty famous neuroscientists

15:56

in Germany and scan of a fantastic?

15:58

The year.

16:02

Yeah there's on a lot of work on consciousness

16:04

in general I think some work and

16:06

psychedelic sling altered consciousness what

16:09

that means for a personhood", he

16:11

wrote a book called empty Brain Happy Brain",

16:13

which sort of says,

16:15

be quieter your mind is

16:18

be happier you are and be more present

16:20

you are in like living

16:22

Now you may, as he isn't the quality

16:24

of life in such a terrible disease,

16:26

so bad that everybody

16:29

would like to not to list.

16:30

And it actually has implications that whole thesis

16:32

on this. idea that people who are

16:34

locked and with ale us can actually be happy

16:37

in that state

16:38

The answer is it many

16:40

studies in the U. S. N

16:42

in Euro we these completely

16:45

powerless bases has,

16:47

shown that quality of life

16:49

is extremely high and of

16:51

low. so what we see is

16:54

surprising quality of life

16:56

despite a desperate physical situation

16:59

He speaks his mind the now

17:02

is. he has been controversial And his buddy

17:05

who dwell too. They used.

17:07

to say i posted in his lab and they just work together

17:09

he came over to germany to

17:11

do post Pearl work in brain

17:13

computer interface stuff.

17:19

Let me more about this first experiment they did

17:21

was it as groundbreaking as his new one

17:23

in theory. The for twenty seventeen,

17:25

yeah, it's super ground.

17:26

Breaking are, searching, for

17:28

the simple looking noninvasive

17:31

cap is allowing researchers to communicate

17:33

with patients who are trapped inside their own

17:35

bodies because of degenerative nerve disease

17:38

is like disease o like

17:39

In twenty seven team, they had a paper in

17:41

plus biology, which is another

17:43

pretty high impact journal about. How

17:47

these electrodes on the scalp could read

17:49

brain waves, the and decide if someone

17:51

was thinking the answer yes or thinking the answer

17:53

no.

17:54

Patient think yes but a patient

17:56

seeing snow machine.

17:58

records the blood flow Doing that

18:00

soft and calculates

18:03

how the blood flow changes during yes

18:06

and doing know, and after a while,

18:08

he has that compute that develops an

18:10

idea is a pet them off

18:13

the blast road during a yes

18:15

and during, you know?

18:16

The it has didn't force objects and

18:18

they claimed that it was pretty successful. The

18:20

are bomber and choudhury. Actually

18:23

claimed to have been.

18:25

Enable to communicate with a

18:27

fully paralyzed person before.

18:30

There were a lot of headlines they hadn't cute anecdotes

18:33

one of them was that like a daughter asked.

18:35

her for paralyzed father it

18:38

is he proved of her fiance and he said no

18:40

nine times out of ten Not

18:43

even. Indication that he was

18:45

still in there and he definitely had opinions.

18:47

Did he say yes the tenth time because he's

18:49

just tired of being asked?

18:52

That I don't know I don't know what the order of it in,

18:54

they have just been the substantive brain

18:56

waves or read the differently. What

18:59

ends up happening to the study, why did you get sounds?

19:01

That's because the person who works

19:03

in not the same university. Decided

19:06

to run the numbers and sound.

19:09

that they weren't necessarily consistent

19:12

and it wasn't replicable

19:16

One of the underlying tenets of

19:18

science these days is that if you publish work

19:20

it has to be applicable by somebody else

19:22

like it you need to have consistent results

19:24

the can be reproduced and.

19:27

if they're not reproduce than that calls into

19:29

question whether of it's real And

19:31

for that basically happen. Then

19:34

there is a big inquiry into his works

19:36

from the university and then also

19:38

from the D. S. G, which is basically the

19:41

major research funding. The

19:44

agency and Germany and,

19:46

they looked into his work and they decided

19:48

that there was selective data

19:50

selection, meaning that.

19:52

the only chose the good stuff

19:54

maybe and that there maybe have been on

19:57

may lack of disclosure of some data and

19:59

some you know Because the.

20:01

it challenging of these patients with these questions

20:04

there were portions of video that we're missing And

20:07

so the fgs the

20:09

university. The scientific

20:11

community they doubted Fair Bomber

20:13

on at led to the. fall of his

20:15

career in career son The'a how bad does it get form

20:19

Well he got fired from the university

20:21

and the DS she I,

20:24

think asked for him to pay back the research funds

20:26

that he had used from then, then

20:28

was put on probation for five years to. bsg

20:31

he basically decided that he was gonna quit science and

20:34

moved to italy It

20:37

was so bad that he left his country, yeah.

20:40

The like I'm done with Germany so he

20:43

he. moved

20:44

Did he ever can see that he

20:47

used improper science that he

20:49

forged his results?

20:50

No. I didn't he actually

20:52

it's a stands by his data hundred percent

20:55

he, concedes that yeah he omitted

20:57

certain portions of the video taping

21:00

like these patient answers because they were.

21:02

Videotaping most of the citizens, and

21:04

he said it was because patients need to be cared for

21:07

like spit needed to be sectioned out of their mouths, are

21:09

you know they? Had to be moved and, so

21:11

these types of on activities that were just

21:13

patient care like they've said that that's why they turned

21:15

off the video camera and that was their

21:17

biggest fault

21:19

How is this looked at in the scientific

21:21

community clearly it didn't go well

21:23

for him and in Germany at this university

21:26

but? What it other scientists think

21:29

of? next they're definitely

21:31

Scientists The continue to doubt his park

21:34

I've heard from some of them bad.

21:36

There's also just a coalition of scientists

21:38

that are signatories and a petition

21:41

basically saying like beer bomber at his

21:43

innocence and his work should be

21:46

reinstated. into the journalist i mean there are dozens

21:48

of names of different scientists around the

21:50

world that are supporting them Though.

21:53

The Or Bomber and Calgary published

21:55

as new experiment. groundbreaking

21:58

stuff. Historic stuff.

22:02

Of course, in the scientific community, people

22:04

know that these guys gonna have the scarlet

22:06

letter. What's the reaction? I

22:09

think it's a lot more.

22:11

measured than what be broader

22:13

public reaction has been, I think scientists

22:16

are. impressed that

22:18

the results look good, you know, any works it's published

22:20

and something like nature communications has been vetted

22:22

really carefully and adding natured took

22:25

two years to look through the data to and

22:27

tran. The our data because

22:29

they have the sticky history to get better

22:32

by nature, it's gonna take months anyway, but very

22:34

rarely to take two years. Though

22:37

I think it's an accomplishment to have this work published.

22:40

At all. Though.

22:43

These two scientists have a checkered past but this

22:45

experiment was possibly

22:48

extra that it as a result what

22:50

about the ethics what are some.

22:52

of the ethical questions surrounding opening

22:54

up paralyzed people's skulls

22:57

to get them to communicate

22:59

There are a lot of ethical concerns of these

23:01

brain computer interfaces.

23:05

I'm. Researchers are stepping away from this because they're

23:07

realizing that the broader, a less community just

23:09

needs more support than the ways

23:12

that are living their lives, you know, like the money. Could

23:14

perhaps, better spent with treatments

23:17

or with allowing better social supports

23:19

and so, this is a

23:21

invasive technology which involves

23:23

is people like learning entirely new ways

23:26

to. Communicate and it takes time and probably

23:28

millions of. dollars and

23:31

so it's not necessarily feasible for

23:33

a lot of people first saw the environment

23:36

has to be exactly perfect for this to work

23:38

in a person and secondly like their issues

23:40

of consent You can. Say

23:43

that this person consented to but with

23:45

a person's completely locked in the they're still

23:47

gonna be questions on how,

23:49

long they are gonna wanna continue to

23:52

communicate in this way. beyond that

23:54

there are questions on how many people with ale us would

23:56

want to continue living like this because these people

23:58

are all on ventilators and They're completely paralyzed

24:01

and so yes they can talk, but how many people wanted

24:04

that's it. The question? The

24:08

implants can be. We don't

24:10

know what their self lives are like how long do.

24:13

you believe in work and how many surgeries it'll

24:15

take to like three and certain

24:17

so as that i'm an artist

24:19

the issues of what kind of a life is worth living

24:21

to society or to an individual

24:24

These are people

24:26

who are making choices, but what does it mean

24:29

to be locked and communicate the say it's been

24:32

a hairy topic from the beginning?

24:36

And we don't have all the answers to those questions

24:38

yet, but. Maybe

24:41

we will once this technology starts

24:43

coming online for more and more people,

24:45

and that sounds like that might be happening

24:47

soon.

24:48

Are you know if people continue this type

24:50

of research, I think you on musk of into

24:53

it? What will pay you

24:55

know they're all kinds of size fi

24:58

fun. thoughts on where this kind of research could

25:00

go but right now it's kind of nice

25:02

that they're trying to help patients

25:04

communicate and live and little better

25:06

And then it's only matter time before, like

25:09

you and I can do this interview with out of and talking

25:11

to each other, I guess the point for at, like

25:13

Elon Musk's dream, as to how

25:15

people talk to each other without talking, right?

25:18

Okay, I guess that all of that US Navy

25:21

could be possible but adding.

25:23

people like to get ahead of themselves and what

25:25

technology is capable of doing we're

25:27

not there yet there are a lot of A

25:30

group of lot of clear that me that go right

25:32

before when can do that.

25:40

Megan I teach of in reports for

25:42

stat news you can find her work at that

25:45

news dot. com earlier, in

25:47

the show you heard from jonathan mowing he's

25:49

a freelance science journalist who wrote about this

25:51

man whose name we do not know

25:53

for the new york times The headline was brain

25:56

implant allows fully paid. Like

25:58

patience to communities. A

26:00

program today was produced by Miles brian

26:03

edited by Matthew collect fact checked by

26:05

tori dominguez and more of Bullard

26:07

and engineered by a theme shapiro. Thank

26:10

you for listening.

26:18

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