0:00

This begins part two of Unfound's coverage

0:03

of the disappearance of Brianna Maitland.

0:06

If you have not yet listened

0:08

to part one, please find it

0:10

on Unfound's feed in your podcast

0:13

application. Brianna

0:15

Alexandria Maitland was a

0:18

17 year old from Montgomery,

0:20

Vermont. She worked two

0:22

jobs and lived with

0:24

a friend. On the

0:26

night of March 19th 2004, Brianna left work at 11

0:28

20 p.m. 40 minutes later, witnesses

0:35

saw Brianna's car backed up

0:38

against an abandoned house. Brianna

0:41

wasn't there. She

0:44

was never seen again. I'm Ed

0:47

Dentsle and this

0:49

is Unfound. Okay.

1:06

Other than that, there's nothing. Nothing. You

1:09

know, and you wouldn't, you wouldn't like necessarily,

1:13

it was searched, but you could

1:15

look out in this field. Yeah,

1:17

it's pretty flat. Yeah. Yeah. So

1:20

they did go out and search,

1:22

of course, that field. They searched

1:24

that are extremely well, but

1:28

yeah. Alright, and we also should note

1:30

as far as the car goes, no

1:32

damage to it. For example, no paint

1:34

from like another car as if two

1:36

cars touched. Nothing like that. No bumper,

1:39

really messed up except for the rear

1:41

bumper that hit the house. Nothing

1:43

like that. But was the

1:45

car drivable? When they did get it back, I mean,

1:47

did somebody continue to drive it or

1:50

did they park it? What was the

1:52

status of the car? How badly was it messed up?

1:55

It didn't have, I mean, it was a car,

1:58

it was a beater, so it had damage,

2:00

but it was wasn't anything that was new,

2:02

nothing substantial, no paint like

2:04

that, transfer or anything like that.

2:07

It was drivable. And eventually,

2:09

after the police had

2:13

it there, they went up to the maintenance

2:15

and I eventually they jumped it. He,

2:18

you know, Bruce said after a while, it just

2:20

became an oddity, where people would just come to

2:22

stare at the car, they're all looking at

2:24

the same thing. And there's it was nothing to

2:27

decipher now today. Today, they

2:29

would never release the car back to the

2:31

family. You know, that was kind

2:33

of an odd thing to do. But

2:36

they did process it. And

2:39

they had prints

2:42

out of it, and biological evidence

2:44

out of it. That

2:47

stuff all ended up coming back to known people.

2:52

Ex-boyfriends, friends, stuff

2:55

like that. Which would not be a surprise

2:57

given that it was her car and probably

2:59

those people rode in it

3:01

at one time or another. Right.

3:04

Okay, one thing I once again, I'm not,

3:06

of course, an expert on Brianna's disappearance. But

3:08

one of the things that really caught me

3:10

by surprise and reading your book was

3:12

there was a lime so a fruit or

3:15

yeah, it's a fruit that usually, of course,

3:17

I guess I'm not a drinker, but usually

3:19

used like with tequila or something or corona

3:21

or something. A lime was found

3:23

on the trunk of the car like

3:25

a slice of lime or what

3:28

are we talking about here? So that's another one

3:30

of those weird things that, you

3:34

know, we're not even sure

3:36

definitively how this work, because there's no photos

3:38

of it or anything like that. You see, so

3:41

that's always been a thing that I personally I

3:43

just think it's an anomaly that means nothing. I don't

3:47

know if it could have gotten on there over the restaurant

3:49

or how it could have

3:51

gotten on there. They're drinking Peronas out of the

3:53

trunk of the car or something gets on there.

3:55

So I don't really know. But

3:58

yeah, it was it was That

4:01

was something that was that the kids

4:03

in the morning The

4:05

three young guys are kids in the morning.

4:07

So it was two guys and a girl. Huh? They

4:11

saw it they made note of it. Okay

4:14

That's an odd one. Okay, and we have to

4:16

remember it's on the day you are even though

4:18

the back of the car hit the house So

4:20

somehow the line was able to stay

4:23

on the car Despite this

4:25

this at least small collision that the

4:27

car had with him 18

4:29

degrees. I don't know if it was frozen to

4:31

it could have been frozen. Right? Very good. Okay,

4:34

but I don't really know where Yeah,

4:37

okay. So just something for everybody

4:40

to think about that is that

4:42

I've never heard before Yeah,

4:44

maybe a lot of other people not heard of

4:46

it Once again, it's in your book and we're

4:48

gonna talk about your book before we're done here

4:50

your opinion Just if you could save you don't

4:52

want to touch it totally fine. Do you think

4:54

the police? You

4:57

know, what do you think the police's Opinion

5:01

is on the disappearance of Brianna Maitland because we're

5:03

gonna get more into your side of it and

5:05

in the work that you've done Do you think

5:07

that they have an opinion on the theory as

5:09

to what happened to Brianna Maitland? If

5:14

you if you want to answer you can answer

5:16

we don't we can certainly move on yeah, I

5:18

don't speak for them I know I don't I

5:20

don't know Okay,

5:22

very good Very good.

5:25

Let's move on now to maybe you know your

5:27

side of it You've been involved now for about

5:29

18 years not quite 18 years summer of 2006

5:34

and You know over that time have

5:36

you or these other people who've been

5:38

helping you the family outside of the

5:40

police Have you organized your own searches?

5:43

Trying to search for her Whether

5:45

it was like recently or back in 2015 Just

5:48

pick a year and how far

5:50

have these searches gone how many miles in

5:52

each direction? And can you

5:54

talk a little bit more about that

5:56

your understanding of the searches with originally

5:58

and then since then? Have

6:01

we personally searched? Yeah, right. Oh,

6:04

so, oh, I don't know. We haven't

6:06

done boots on the ground searches. I

6:10

haven't personally. Police

6:12

have done many. You

6:15

know, we're more apt to

6:17

go and interview people

6:19

wherever we need to go. I

6:23

was going to go to Florida at one point

6:25

and the police ended up taking the interview over.

6:28

So, I mean, we get around. But

6:30

it's been pretty localized. Okay.

6:34

But there's been stuff that's stretched states

6:37

and states away. Yeah, okay. Okay.

6:41

Let's move on to this now. Regarding going back to James

6:43

and Keeley, just to kind of go over this a little

6:45

bit more. You actually had a

6:47

chance. Did you personally have a chance to

6:49

interview James one-on-one? You actually spoke to him,

6:52

like, face-to-face? Luted. Luted, at

6:54

least. You're a other assistant. More than one

6:56

occasion, yeah. More than one occasion. Of course,

6:58

we already know now that James

7:01

has some different stories. But maybe they kind

7:03

of make sense. Maybe we

7:05

should just clarify something about him seeing the

7:07

car. Because it's

7:09

kind of like a T intersection there where

7:12

the house was. He was

7:14

actually coming down like the T. He

7:16

wasn't like on the main road that went by the

7:19

house. My understanding, the way you explained it to me – and

7:21

this is something that I didn't understand until you said it –

7:24

he was actually coming down the T. So his headlights

7:26

kind of would have almost been right on the house

7:29

coming down this road. Am I right about that? Is

7:31

that correct? I

7:33

know at least in one of his stories that's what he

7:35

had said. I'm

7:38

pretty sure that's what he said. Either way, he

7:40

said he positioned his vehicle so that he'd put

7:42

his lights on it. And

7:44

he was looking at it, and he was thinking, what

7:47

the hell is their car doing there like that? And then

7:49

he got out with his lights on it. He went over

7:51

to it and looked through it and

7:53

everything. But I don't remember

7:55

if it was – I

7:58

can't remember if it was from the T. to you

8:00

or not. Okay. All right. Because you

8:02

know once again I don't know if

8:04

anybody's ever tested this over the last

8:06

20 years but my perception

8:08

even though I've never been I don't think I've ever even

8:10

been in the state of Vermont but

8:12

at night if somebody was driving

8:14

by there would he

8:17

have been able to tell at night

8:19

especially with the headlights on everything that

8:21

was actually Brianna's car being that it's

8:23

dark and everything else it seems unlikely

8:26

unless his headlights were actually on the car.

8:28

Of course she had a unique car so

8:30

maybe that's not a surprise but yeah that's

8:33

I was wondering if anybody tried to like

8:35

test that over the years to just see

8:38

if. Well I think he would actually because

8:40

the pictures are a

8:42

little deceiving to look at. The

8:44

car would have been pretty close to the road. The

8:47

house didn't sit very far off the road at all.

8:49

Very close. And when you're coming around this bend it's

8:52

really gradual. I think he would have had a really

8:54

good view of it actually. And

8:56

her car was very distinct and everyone knew that

8:58

it was wrong. Yeah I don't

9:01

think he would have had any problems seeing him.

9:03

Okay very good. And of course we talked about

9:05

Keely. I should ask you this being that you

9:07

did get to speak to Keely. Did

9:09

or maybe James too. Did James or

9:11

Keely being that they both

9:14

knew Brianna fairly well of course with

9:16

Keely you know they had a falling out.

9:19

Did either of them offer up their own

9:21

opinion as to what happened to Brianna being

9:23

that they would have known her as well

9:25

as anybody. Did they ever offer an opinion

9:27

in your interviews. Yeah they're

9:29

dumbfounded. They're dumbfounded they don't know.

9:33

And you know Keely yeah they had a

9:35

problem and everything but they were friends. Yeah

9:37

they've been friends for a long time so

9:39

they you know it wasn't they would have

9:41

blown over. But no they're dumbfounded. They

9:44

don't know. They never offered

9:46

up a you know a theory. She

9:48

ran off to L.A. or

9:50

somebody or anything like that. Once again

9:53

being that they knew her the best.

9:55

They just really just had nothing to

9:57

say. It's funny that you would They,

10:00

everybody had, would kind of

10:02

regurgitate rumors. Yeah.

10:06

And that's kind of how you would know that they, they

10:09

didn't know what, they didn't know anything because

10:11

they would, they would

10:13

kind of say, well, I kind of believe this, what

10:16

they're doing is they're hearing different stories. And they're going,

10:18

well, this is the one that sounds most likely to

10:20

me. We know that

10:22

it's not true. We know that it's

10:24

just the rumor and there's no truth to it

10:26

whatsoever. So they're like, Oh, well,

10:29

maybe it was this then. No, that's not true.

10:31

We know that it's not true. So they, now

10:33

they don't know. The

10:36

really weird thing. And we tell people

10:38

this a lot is that after 20 years,

10:43

not one piece of information that any other

10:45

locals have brought to us have ever any

10:48

fruit whatsoever. None. It's crazy how that works.

10:51

Yeah. Not one, not one bit.

10:55

Yeah. We don't think they know anything. And

10:57

the funny thing is just that people

10:59

will say, I know what happened. I mean,

11:01

it's really happening. You feel, okay, what

11:03

happened? And they'll tell you a story

11:06

to go. Okay. That's not true though. And

11:08

how well, what do you mean it's not true? And then you tell them

11:11

exactly why it's not true. But they're

11:13

really confident. And

11:15

it's weird that people will be so confident in something

11:17

that they just heard. You

11:19

know, somebody just told them they didn't, they didn't see

11:21

it firsthand or they didn't have anything to prove it.

11:24

It's just that someone told them and they, maybe they trust

11:26

that person. And so they like, well, this is true. No,

11:28

it's not. So it

11:30

reminds me of what you're talking about. Maybe you've seen

11:33

the movie. I know many of the listeners have seen

11:35

this movie. If you've seen the movie Zodiac, of course,

11:37

which is about trying to figure out who the Zodiac

11:39

killer was. And there's a montage in the middle of

11:41

the movie where they're interviewing

11:43

these different people who say they have

11:45

information and they're just pulling all

11:47

sorts of things that, you know, facts about

11:49

the Zodiac killer that aren't even true. Well,

11:51

you know, I cut off his hands and

11:53

everything else. Well that, you know, the Zodiac

11:56

killer didn't do that. This, when

11:58

we, when we tattered free our paracombs. Conversation

12:00

when you mentioned that I was thinking and that reminds

12:02

me of that scene in the movie But

12:05

it's that yeah that captured I think I run

12:07

into that a lot in the disappearances that I

12:09

cover too So it really rings true to me

12:11

and so you talking about it. Absolutely rings true

12:13

to me as well. Absolutely I

12:16

have a really really Newfound

12:18

respect for the police after all these years

12:20

of working. They did let's try them crazy

12:23

Just it's just a garbage Information that

12:25

comes to an you know, a lot

12:28

of it the people are they're giving the

12:30

information are they want to help? they're they

12:32

honestly are trying to do a good thing but God

12:37

it's got to drive the police crazy. Just go around

12:39

sir. It drives us crazy. We've had people

12:41

actually say to us It's a weird thing Did

12:46

say I know what happened I'll tell you exactly what happened Okay

12:48

I'm all ears and they'll tell you more

12:51

than one story literally who had one girl tell us three

12:53

stories right in her Oh And I'm

12:55

just listening she got done and I go Okay,

12:58

but they can't all be true. She's like, what do you mean? They

13:02

can't I'll be true. Just only three different stories, which

13:04

one's true. Just kind of looking at me like I'm an idiot We

13:07

walk away. I said the loo. I'm like are we gonna

13:10

talk about this? Is this weird? Cuz this is weird, right?

13:12

I Don't

13:14

know what that is Critical

13:18

thinking skills or what? Yeah, I

13:20

know a good way to put it. Yeah And

13:24

there are so many rumors I was hoping and

13:26

I think I did a pretty good job of

13:28

it in the book of dispelling these big rumors

13:31

Yeah toward the end you went

13:33

through some different theories and things kind of

13:35

kind of trying to do that, you know

13:37

doing that. Yeah This

13:39

is people people. I've had a lot of people

13:41

contact me on Facebook from up there and say

13:44

Thank you. You know this community

13:46

really needed this book and I Hate

13:49

to know these things weren't true. You know,

13:52

I always thought there's some truth to them And so

13:54

that helped that made me forget about that I

13:59

Want to give you an opportunity? It is probably other

14:01

than the car being bashed i think

14:03

into the building. This is one of

14:05

the other points the butter disappears like

14:07

think is the well known this whole

14:10

thing about her and her mother being

14:12

in a grocery store and her quote

14:14

unquote, freaking out or whatever people words

14:16

have been used over the years you

14:18

actually write about this in the book

14:20

we've talked about it. You have a

14:22

particular inside, in fact. Her

14:24

own parents have a particular insight

14:26

into this. And maybe

14:29

it's not a suspicious as with made the

14:31

bead you want to kind of bombs address.

14:34

Yeah you know the Kentucky Roof was a

14:36

grocery store for was a clothing store of

14:38

money but and stuff guys were so. That

14:41

was the dates there was a day ever

14:43

decide to parents and I think the was

14:45

shot by super super close. We're.

14:47

Close. But anyway, Ah, you

14:49

know. Tallied. Her

14:51

mother said that on the show disappeared. The.

14:56

Brand I notice something walked outside of

14:58

the stored which came back and she

15:00

was broken a nervous or something. Emerges

15:04

so cold and everybody went

15:06

crazy with that lap bubble

15:08

bath in. I ended up

15:10

talking to. Interview on

15:12

a guy who said ah, I.

15:15

Know who that was It. Did

15:18

she talk to any? Told her not to to work at

15:20

night. I'm. Now

15:22

I'd exodus our podcast and

15:24

I said. Ah,

15:28

I. Interviewed this person. This is what he

15:30

told me. It.

15:32

Doesn't mean I believe it. But

15:34

this is what he says. You know because

15:37

a big forgot it does me to happen

15:39

right? I just took root canal read you

15:41

know breezy. This is what great said that.

15:44

This is what happened so it's all gonna go

15:46

to work in my yep. It.

15:49

But we don't think there was a

15:51

to say whatsoever and I think kelly

15:53

me busy to reproduce. In.

15:55

I think she might have spitball on little

15:57

bit. And. He just got to.

16:00

it as fact

16:02

or whatever. We think she just went out to have

16:04

a cigarette and didn't want to get caught by her

16:06

mother. Okay.

16:09

There's nothing to prove there's any truth

16:11

whatsoever. And the guy that gave me

16:14

that information turned out to be not trustworthy

16:17

whatsoever. He gives a lot of other

16:19

information that was false. He gives a

16:21

lot of other information that was, you

16:24

couldn't prove or disprove it either way,

16:26

but it was just preposterous information, you

16:29

know. Okay. All right. So

16:31

I want to make sure I give you an opportunity to

16:33

talk about that. Something that maybe it

16:35

seemed like something to a lot of people,

16:38

but your opinion, of course, working on

16:40

this for 18 years is it just

16:43

is not much of anything as

16:45

far as you can tell. I don't

16:47

think so. Okay. I think she just, her

16:50

mother might have misinterpreted something. Okay. And it's

16:52

very possible. And of course, they, going back

16:54

to the cigarette, she's, you know, she's 17

16:56

and her parents don't want her smoking. You

16:58

know, maybe kids generate some lies so they

17:01

can kind of go do these, cover

17:04

these things up. Not unusual. Not unusual.

17:06

In all of your work over the last 18 years, I

17:09

just have to ask you this. Once again, this is right

17:11

in the outline from the interviews,

17:14

any talk about Brianna regarding

17:16

depression, anybody stalking her, mental

17:19

health issues, suicide talk,

17:22

meeting anybody. Has

17:24

any of this ever popped up in any

17:26

of the people you talk to regard whether

17:28

parents, friends, anybody else, any of those topics

17:30

ever point come up to the point that,

17:34

you know, you think it's something substantial?

17:39

No. Okay.

17:42

Never talked before. You

17:45

look going just specifically

17:47

stalking. She thought some

17:49

guy was stalking her.

17:51

John Smith was talking

17:53

or nothing like that.

17:55

No. Looking back at it, of course,

17:57

hindsight 2020. Um,

18:01

you look back at it now you are now

18:03

an expert on Brian is disappearance working on this

18:05

for 18 years But looking back in 2004 when

18:07

she went missing the things that were done a lot

18:10

of mistakes made things that

18:13

You know, you think of course we're all

18:15

human We know mistakes are going to be

18:18

made to buy it because we're human but

18:20

things that were like really Overshights that maybe

18:22

could have solved the disappearance at the time

18:25

Or maybe shortly thereafter Or

18:28

or not the way you look at it now Yeah,

18:31

well, I think you know the police

18:33

have acknowledged they did things wrong initially

18:35

and and and I

18:37

and to me That's huge that they would come out and

18:40

say yes. Okay, we did some things

18:42

wrong, you know, and they corrected do that

18:46

But just the fact that they just kind of Blew

18:49

that off. I mean they they even told

18:51

Bruce and Kelly at one point Yeah,

18:54

she probably went to Boston should be back kids

18:57

do that Bruce was like the

18:59

hell are you talking about her cars crashed?

19:02

There's paychecks on the sea. Sure migraine medicine.

19:04

Is it there? What are you talking about?

19:06

She didn't show up for work, you know

19:09

And they're like, yeah, so it that was

19:11

an issue. That's why there was a big

19:13

problem there in the beginning there was an

19:15

incident where Bruce

19:18

went to Jillian's house she

19:21

went missing and said I'm on her stuff. Where's her

19:23

stuff? He wanted to see what was there or if

19:25

there's notes or anything like that and

19:27

uh, Jillian gave Bruce

19:30

the diary Bruce and Kelly and

19:33

um her diary So he had to

19:35

turn the diary over to the police and there were

19:37

some pages his rit deal and they went after Bruce

19:40

You know, they thought that he had

19:42

torn stuff out of there to

19:45

hide something And it

19:47

was a huge fight over that come

19:49

to find out Jillian tore the

19:52

stuff out because she was trying to save

19:55

ran a little embarrassment You

19:57

know, which she's a kid

20:00

You know, she just didn't want her to get

20:02

in trouble for something, or be embarrassed

20:04

about something. So, yeah, that

20:06

was an issue. Okay.

20:10

I guess what I'm asking you is that it

20:12

was a – I don't want to use the

20:15

word fake. But was

20:17

it just kind of a thing that

20:19

the way this all went down in

20:21

2004, no matter what people may particularly

20:23

be and believe about a particular theory,

20:27

the 20 years later that it was still

20:29

going to be unsolved no matter what anybody

20:31

did at the time, or do you have

20:33

a different insight into this? The

20:35

different things had been done at the time. The

20:38

disappearance would have been solved by now. Once again, you –

20:40

I don't know. That's so hard to say. I don't

20:42

know if that's something you can really predict, you know what

20:44

I mean? Okay. But

20:47

we all know from television and

20:49

whatever where it's important

20:51

to be right on top of this. If

20:53

this is what's happening in the first 48

20:55

hours, it's really crucial. Yeah.

21:01

Just the protocol there of just towing the

21:03

car away and stuff like that. Yeah. You

21:06

know, that came up – and, you know, again,

21:09

that comes up in like Maura Murray's case where I

21:11

was like, she's just a

21:13

drunk driver. She'll show up tomorrow. And

21:15

that's what they say. They say, you know, the next

21:18

morning they always show up and want their car back.

21:20

Yeah. Okay. That's

21:23

a really bad protocol because what if –

21:25

What if they don't show up? – or

21:27

something or she hit her head on

21:29

the windshield and she's off in the woods dying or something, you

21:31

know? So protocols got to be

21:33

– we're on it. That's got

21:35

to be – and they did change that. So

21:38

there was a disappearance after Brianna's

21:41

and I can't remember his name. I

21:44

can't remember his name, but they

21:46

hopped on it. Actually, there

21:48

was one of Hank Elberly's articles. They

21:50

talked about a disappearance of a girl, too, afterwards.

21:54

And they put a bunch of officers on

21:56

it full-time immediately and went after. And

21:59

that's – they really – because of Brianna's

22:01

case that this is what needed to be

22:03

done. Yeah, so

22:05

protocol there changed for

22:08

that kind of... Yeah, I

22:10

guess what I'm asking, we had a disappearance. It was

22:12

the oldest disappearance, still to this day, it's the oldest

22:14

disappearance we've ever featured on Unfound

22:17

and miraculously it got solved

22:19

here in February, a disappearance

22:21

from 1945, of a woman who

22:23

we now found out, even though she was married, had kids

22:25

walked out of her life, didn't

22:28

even change her first name, but she married a new

22:30

man, had additional

22:32

kids and through DNA, through Othrom

22:34

and of course other groups, they

22:37

were able to find out that

22:39

she moved to Arkansas and

22:42

started a new life and

22:44

she died in 1990 and before she died

22:46

she told one of her grandchildren, I

22:49

hope nobody ever finds out the secret that

22:51

I have. She lived with this for like

22:53

an additional 45 years till she died of

22:55

cancer. It wasn't until February of

22:57

2024 that a police officer

23:00

in Ohio, in Shelby, Ohio, Adam Turner was able

23:02

to figure this all out with DNA and everything

23:05

else and so what I mean like when I'm

23:07

the comparison is that there's nothing that anybody could

23:09

have done in 1945 that would have changed the

23:11

trajectory of that disappearance. There's nothing that could have

23:14

been done and in fact we needed to wait

23:16

till science caught up with the

23:18

disappearance all these years later. Well, I guess

23:20

what I'm saying is this kind of

23:22

the same thing with Brianna or is it something

23:24

different? No, I don't know.

23:26

First of all, each case

23:29

of someone disappearing is

23:31

individual. Yes, you can take

23:33

a thousand cases and you can say there are

23:35

things that are similar with these and whatever, but

23:37

each one is going to be different and

23:40

if an investigation started immediately when this

23:42

person that you're referring to began

23:45

immediately, they may have found

23:47

her wherever she went to. They may have found

23:49

her. She's not a ghost. How

23:53

old was this woman when she

23:55

went missing? I fell in her

23:57

late 20s early 30s or something.

24:00

something maybe 25 something like that she was

24:02

living in Shelby Ohio by herself she was

24:04

working for the war effort her husband and

24:06

kids were back in West Virginia so

24:11

that's rare yeah it is rare that's

24:13

rare that people disappear like that and

24:15

again Brianna was a child yeah

24:20

so yeah I think in

24:22

comparison once again saying you know they

24:24

you know they knew that she went

24:27

missing they did what they could in

24:29

1945 terms really nothing you could

24:31

do you know I don't know

24:33

how you attract somebody it

24:37

happens there's there's cases of

24:39

people voluntarily leaving when when

24:41

people voluntarily leave when

24:43

you look at them the majority of

24:45

them involves some kind of mental

24:47

health issue other ones

24:50

you'll see it with men men

24:52

usually want to escape their family they want to

24:54

escape their wife you want to keep the children

24:56

they want to go out be for

25:00

life I better probably explain it better

25:02

but they want to be

25:04

a guy they want to run off they want to run

25:06

off they want their single life or something back again or

25:08

something they want to

25:11

restrict their responsibility it

25:13

happens it's not the

25:15

norm it's not common yeah

25:19

I did not bring Mary Jane Van Gilder

25:21

up because I'm trying to say necessarily that that

25:24

Brianna ran off or walked off I'm

25:26

saying it's just from an investigation point

25:28

of view you know giving

25:30

the limitations of a particular you

25:33

know the science or the understanding or

25:35

everything sometimes some of these disappearances you

25:37

just have to sometimes you know wait

25:39

for them to be solved sometimes yeah

25:42

that's all I'm asking Brianna and you're

25:44

giving me the impression that maybe things

25:46

could have been done that might

25:48

have not caused this disappearance to be unsolved

25:50

for 20 years maybe I think so you

25:52

know so

25:55

whoever was responsible for this was

25:58

given time to leave

26:01

or fade back to normal in their

26:03

life or just

26:05

change things so that

26:08

people wouldn't notice or maybe take care of what they ever

26:10

needed to fade back into their life or whatever. When you

26:13

look at the fact that nobody

26:15

up there has ever been able to provide

26:18

anything substantial

26:20

that goes into

26:22

that conversation of is a lack of evidence,

26:24

evidence hypothetically, you know what I mean? Does

26:27

this mean that this is a stranger abduction?

26:29

Does it mean that it's

26:31

someone that's not from that area? Is it someone

26:33

that's a predator going into

26:36

those sparsely populated areas to do something

26:38

like this? You know what I mean?

26:40

So that may

26:42

make your mind lean to that kind of speculation,

26:45

I guess. But yeah, if somebody had

26:48

been able to hop on this immediately, it

26:50

seems like they would have been a better

26:52

chance. And I didn't investigate it. I'll tell

26:54

you that it should work typically. Okay.

26:58

So move on to this. Just some

27:01

questions right there in the outline. Any side

27:03

of the proof you've been able to find

27:05

to show that Brianna was murdered? No.

27:09

Okay.

27:11

Has anybody, you know, sometimes these things

27:13

happen, you know, maybe more and more

27:15

rural or urban areas, people taking credit

27:18

for disappearances that maybe they didn't have

27:20

anything to do with simply to build

27:22

up their street cred or something. Has

27:24

anybody ever taken credit for

27:27

taking Brianna murdering Brianna, abducting

27:29

Brianna, you know, just, you know,

27:32

just for the heck of it, just to, like I

27:34

said, build up their reputation as being a scary person,

27:36

anything that you found in the group that's

27:39

happened. A guy named Jorge Soto,

27:41

the joker, they call him the joker.

27:43

So he had his own chapter in the book. But

27:47

we resolve that, we kind of resolve

27:49

that issue. But it's interesting. And

27:52

he would tell anybody that would listen that

27:54

he killed Brianna. And then in

27:56

a setting barrier, the cornfield up behind his

27:59

house. near St.

28:01

Elizabeth. So yeah, there's people that came

28:03

forward like that and then there was people that came

28:05

forward and pointed at people that I definitely know that

28:08

this person was involved. And

28:11

as you know that the one chapter in

28:13

there where the

28:19

woman kind of confesses that she

28:21

knows what exactly what happened and tells the

28:23

story. Talking about Debbie. Yeah,

28:25

but we don't think there's a truth. Okay.

28:27

Yeah, right. And we're going

28:31

to talk about that. But once again, for everybody,

28:33

we don't want to give away everything in the

28:35

book, we're going to get to this book because

28:38

we want everybody to get the book. That's why

28:40

we're just kind of going over the general details.

28:42

We don't want to give anything away here because

28:44

once again, it's a good book.

28:46

I've read it. I think everybody should read it, but we

28:48

don't want to give everything away here because then people won't

28:50

get the book. And we're certainly here. I'm here to help

28:52

you out. So we want to

28:55

this besides James, anyone else

28:57

whose story has changed anybody? Maybe I

28:59

should say who knew Brianna well,

29:01

anybody else stories who have changed over the last

29:03

20 years? What are you whether want to use

29:06

their names or not up to you, but anybody

29:08

kind of like James like three or four different

29:10

stories? Nope. No.

29:14

Okay. Okay. Next

29:16

question. We've of course

29:18

talked about people seeing her car backed

29:21

into the house, multiple people. In fact,

29:23

eventually people started taking pictures. Did anyone

29:26

ever see a car parked at the

29:28

house before Brianna's car was

29:30

seen wrecked there? Have you ever been

29:32

able to track anybody down in that

29:34

timeframe between like 1120 and I guess

29:36

midnight who drove by and say, you

29:38

know what, I did see a car

29:40

parked there as if somebody was waiting

29:42

for somebody, you know, anything

29:45

like that. Of course, you've tracked down a lot of

29:47

people who did see the car, but did anybody actually

29:50

see anybody there before Brianna's car

29:52

was seen wrecked? No. And

29:54

I think people would have picked right up on that too,

29:57

because again, it wasn't some place that people would stop. Okay.

30:01

Interesting. Okay, very good. Let's

30:04

move on to this. You write about this extensively.

30:06

Mara Murray, we've already talked about her a few

30:08

times in this interview. You do

30:11

talk about the connection possibly

30:13

between Mara and Brianna, maybe

30:15

just in some sentences here.

30:18

You do have a suspicion that they are connected. Maybe you want

30:20

to talk a little bit about that. So

30:23

I get in a lot of trouble for

30:25

this. You ready? That's fine. It's your interview.

30:27

You get to talk about what you want.

30:29

So please make sure you talk about it

30:31

in the book too. I'm here

30:34

to facilitate this, please. Let's

30:36

see if I can explain this correctly. So,

30:41

of course, the two disciplines have

30:44

always been kind of related to people's

30:46

minds and they've been brought up together in

30:48

newspaper articles. And, you know, when

30:52

one is referenced, the other is usually

30:54

referenced. So,

30:58

Mara went missing in

31:00

Haverhill, New Hampshire, and

31:03

I believe it's like 85 miles away

31:06

from Montgomery, Vermont, where Brianna went missing.

31:08

So, Mara is February 9th,

31:10

Brianna's March 19th. 40 days

31:14

or something like that. So, they're

31:17

both in very sparsely populated areas. Their

31:20

cars are found by the side of the road and they're

31:22

gone and they're never seen again. Both

31:25

kind of crashed into band and they're gone. So,

31:28

in the book, I tried to... there's

31:30

so much information on both cases and so

31:33

much on Mara's, it's mind boggling. Yeah, I

31:35

know. But I tried to do

31:37

the best I could to just hit the highlights to

31:40

show the differences and how they're different and how they're

31:42

the same and how they're different. I

31:45

don't think I maybe explained it quite as

31:47

well as I could have. I would have

31:50

liked to revise that chapter a little bit.

31:54

And here's... there's a point here I

31:56

want to make. Let's see if I can do this correctly. Go ahead.

32:00

When more, for people who are familiar with more

32:02

as in grand cases, by

32:05

the way, I want to make it, I want to make this really

32:07

clear that I don't speak for other people.

32:09

I'm not speaking for Lou Barry or Bruce Maitland or you

32:12

know, anybody else. This is just my opinion.

32:16

And my point

32:18

of telling people this is

32:20

just because I think it's worth entertaining. Okay,

32:23

I'm not turning. I

32:26

just think it's worth making note of

32:28

that it makes sense. So if you're

32:35

familiar with Morris case, it's very, we

32:38

covered it about a year ago, and here I interviewed her,

32:41

she said, Julie, yes, yes. Okay,

32:43

yeah, Julie, Julie's great. So if

32:46

you're familiar with Morris

32:48

case, if the listeners are so more

32:51

was attending college, Massachusetts,

32:55

she enamors so she contacts

32:58

her in the middle of

33:00

the night, she contacts her instructors,

33:03

fabricates a story about a death in the family, so

33:06

that she can get some time off. It's obvious

33:09

that's what happened later on. She

33:11

ends up going to a liquor store

33:13

buying booze, getting on the road in

33:15

a car that is not trustworthy to

33:17

drive. Her father had been

33:20

found to try to purchase her vehicle. He

33:22

had told her specifically, do

33:25

not drive this car, they even parked it out behind

33:27

in parking lot way in the back out

33:29

behind the school, he said, only in an

33:31

emergency. Otherwise, there's no reason to drive this vehicle. She

33:34

drives it north. I can't

33:38

remember what it was maybe 150 miles or something like

33:40

a couple hours. Yeah, a and

33:43

she ends up on this, like, again,

33:46

not remote, but rural, all the

33:48

way, weird place on

33:50

this windy road, spins

33:53

off the road. And

33:55

that's where her cars found. So

33:57

she, she fabricates the

34:00

story leaves it an undesignated time to

34:02

an undesignated

34:05

destination. No one

34:07

that knows or knows where she would have

34:09

been going. There's nothing in her computer or

34:11

phone or anything to tell where she's going.

34:14

She leaves it an unpredictable time. She has an

34:16

unpredictable accident and she

34:20

disappears in moments. There

34:22

is a witness that stops and

34:25

says, are you okay? Do you

34:27

need to call police? She

34:29

says no, I called AAA, which

34:31

she knows isn't true because they don't give cell service. He

34:34

goes up into his driveway, walks in the house, tells

34:36

his girlfriend and mother to call it in and goes

34:39

back out and sits in the school bus he's driving. He's

34:41

filling out a log book and cars are going by and

34:45

when the cops get there, she's gone. It's

34:47

a very short window. Yeah, very short time.

34:50

So then you look

34:52

at Brianna who's staying in a home

34:57

with her friend and her friend's father. It's pretty,

35:03

I don't know if stable is the correct word,

35:05

but there's people

35:07

there. They're going

35:09

to work, they're going to school, they're getting up,

35:11

certain hours going to bed at certain hours, there's

35:14

a stable functioning home there. She drives 15

35:16

or 20 minutes to work, goes into

35:19

a small building where the people know her. She can

35:21

look outside and she can see her car. Nobody

35:25

sees anything amiss. When

35:28

she gets ready to leave, they ask her to stay and eat. She

35:30

says, no, I got to get up early early in the morning and

35:32

go and get to bed. She leaves her car's

35:34

final crash and a band-aid just down the road. Two

35:37

minutes, literally two minutes down the road and she's gone to

35:40

the receiving room. So the

35:44

Vermont State Police went to New Hampshire because

35:46

there was outcry that these two things were

35:48

related publicly.

35:51

So they went and the FBI said, and on the

35:53

two, so they were in New Hampshire and they came

35:55

out and they publicly gave

35:59

up public release. Now, I

36:01

wanted to put a picture from that into

36:03

my book and I couldn't get permission to

36:05

put it in for another reason. I just

36:08

figured out who to contact to get

36:10

permission from this principal. It

36:12

drove me nuts. I worked on it for a

36:14

long time. It was a picture of the

36:17

Maitland's and Fred Murray together at

36:20

this meeting outside and they were talking to the

36:22

reporters and stuff like that. But you can see

36:25

how young they were at the time, comparatively to

36:27

now and stuff like that. I

36:29

was actually holding a copy of the book, The

36:32

Shadow of Dap, which was an

36:34

unsolved serial killer that was operating in the

36:36

Connecticut River Valley, which is where more and

36:38

less missing but it was years prior, many

36:40

years prior. They

36:43

come out publicly and they say, we

36:46

do not believe these two things are related. There's

36:49

no serial killer or anything like that. These

36:52

two things are not the same.

36:54

And then they said it again shortly afterwards and

36:56

then you just really comment on it again after

36:58

that. But here's the

37:00

thing, that early on,

37:02

we know exactly what they had to

37:05

discuss because we know what they knew.

37:11

Both stories were pretty

37:13

cut and dry. We knew

37:16

the facts of the stories. So

37:18

when you look at Morris, what I just

37:20

explained to you, her odd set of circumstances

37:22

that's absolutely baffling to everyone. Then

37:25

you look at Brianna's set of circumstances, they're pretty

37:27

basic. We're going to work and leave and work

37:29

and all that stuff. And if you

37:31

look at those and hold one of these hands and you say, these

37:34

two things, they are not the same, right? They are

37:36

not the same.

37:38

But that's like falling for

37:40

a logical fallacy. That doesn't matter. A

37:43

stranger abduction, he doesn't give a where

37:46

you live, where you work, where

37:48

you're going, where you're coming from, who you're involved

37:50

with, if you're going to school, what your circumstances

37:53

were that day. He doesn't care about any of

37:55

that. All he cares about is in the

37:57

moment, is the circumstances

37:59

correct. to what he wants to do, which

38:01

is get you, that's it. He doesn't

38:03

care about this. So

38:06

I would, I

38:09

absolutely entertain the fact that

38:12

they could be related. Now,

38:17

people will instantly say to me, you have no proof

38:19

of it. I get that. So don't

38:21

yell that at me. People will shout

38:23

it in the comments, you don't wanna be proof.

38:25

I get that, I understand it absolutely entirely. What

38:28

I'm telling you is it's worth

38:30

entertaining. People will instantly say they're not related because of

38:32

A, B, and C, and D. There's

38:34

no way of knowing. It's

38:36

interesting that there's, they're

38:39

in sparsely populated North Country areas.

38:44

They're, as far as someone that's a predator

38:46

and is out trolling for victims, they're not

38:48

that far apart. I

38:51

also find it very interesting that it was someone that

38:53

was caught

38:56

convicted and set to prison for

38:59

abducting and murdering a woman south

39:01

of there. When

39:05

he, when this took place, professionals

39:08

all said, this is not his first time. Nobody

39:12

said, where's the other victims? They

39:15

just moved on. They moved, he

39:18

went to prison and they moved on. Not

39:20

one person said, you know, we got two

39:22

really high profile missing persons cases up North.

39:26

Granted, it was a ways away. I get

39:28

that. But there's something that you miss

39:30

when you kind of look at Vermont. Vermont

39:35

has less people in the whole state

39:38

than the Albany, New York area. I mean,

39:40

that's very small. Yeah. If

39:43

you're not used to it, it's weird. It's very, it's

39:45

kind of a cool thing. When you're there, it's very,

39:49

I don't know how to put it. You

39:52

know, you can go into towns, it's like you're stepping back

39:54

in time. You

39:56

know, the real little hamlets and stuff. Yeah. But

39:59

it's kind of. They're all close knit,

40:01

they all know each other. And

40:03

there's a certain bonding there. The

40:06

people there are really kind of

40:08

fiercely independent. You

40:10

know what I mean? And

40:13

you know, when you look at the fact that it's, you

40:16

call a cop and it may be 20 minutes or

40:18

45 minutes till they get to your house. There's

40:21

a certain attitude that people take where you got to

40:23

take care of yourself. And they

40:25

all understand that. So it's, you know,

40:27

I'm not putting it down, it's just different. To

40:30

think that it's out of someone's stretch, someone's gonna

40:32

go, a predator's gonna

40:35

go trolling in these

40:37

different areas. This is beyond the realm of

40:39

comprehension. It

40:41

happens, we see it again and again. And

40:44

you actually bring up somebody toward the end

40:47

of your book. At

40:50

least one person that you think is a

40:52

pretty good choice. Yeah, absolutely.

40:54

So there's a whole chapter on

40:57

predators and there's a, you know,

41:00

looking back, I wish I had extended some of that too.

41:02

When I wrote it, a few people came

41:04

to me and said, I

41:06

had written books, they said, you

41:08

really wanna set it down and walk away from it for

41:10

six months before you publish it because you're gonna wanna, you're

41:12

gonna go back and you're gonna read it and you're gonna

41:14

go, okay, I wanna add stuff. And I'm like, I

41:17

don't have that opportunity where

41:19

I'm gonna just set a book aside for

41:21

six months and go about my

41:23

way. This is a project I'm on, I'm gonna finish

41:25

it, you know. But if I had done that, there

41:28

were some things that could have really expanded on and

41:31

that was one of them. So

41:38

Brianna had, you know, Brianna's

41:43

really close friend had said, a man had

41:45

come into the inn and

41:48

spoke to her and he

41:50

had said, he had expressed it,

41:52

he liked her and she

41:54

kind of expressed the fact, she kind of liked him

41:56

too. He was older and she thought he might be

41:58

from Canada. she's basing that on, she's

42:01

a 17 year old kid. But

42:03

that's all she knows. Now, in

42:08

order for Brianna for this to happen to her, when

42:12

she got in her car and she drove away and

42:15

she drives two minutes up the road and has whatever

42:17

cap takes place or takes place and she's gone. Nobody

42:20

came up to her at 1120 at night

42:23

when she leaves there, saw her in another

42:25

vehicle said, there's a girl alone, I'm an

42:27

abductor. They

42:29

had to be waiting. This had to be a plane which

42:33

could have very easily happened. There's a church kind of

42:35

kitty corner there and it's kind of like just a

42:37

little neighborhood. They could have waited

42:40

for her to leave. She's in a very distinct

42:42

vehicle. They see her vehicle there. They

42:44

know she's leaving. She's got to be leaving sometime soon. It's

42:46

getting near the end of the night. You're just

42:48

going to sit and wait. Now, we

42:50

don't know what transpired. But

42:53

that particular person is

42:57

interesting that they would say that, you know, I

42:59

was looking back. This is another thing I

43:03

didn't know prior to publishing

43:05

the book. I found a newspaper

43:08

article that had that exact information in

43:10

it and it was early on. Some

43:13

of her friends said someone spoke to her

43:16

at the end. Either

43:19

way, my point is that I

43:22

believe that it was not from someone

43:24

from that area. I believe that

43:26

it was someone that had come in there and

43:29

met her somehow, whether it was at the diner

43:31

or it was at the end. Now, if

43:33

that person met her at the diner in

43:35

the early morning hours when she was, you

43:37

know, waiting tables, training to

43:39

wait tables in the

43:42

breakfast. If

43:44

she had talked to someone and someone said, Oh, do you

43:46

like your job? She was the type of

43:49

person that said, Yeah, I got two jobs. I worked

43:51

at the diner too. You know,

43:53

she's driving this vehicle. It's

43:55

really noticeable. So it wouldn't

43:57

be a big issue.

44:00

to try to

44:02

go spotter there. So

44:04

what you're saying is you really,

44:06

really, really entertain the idea that

44:08

Mara's and Brianna's disappearances are connected.

44:13

I entertain them for sure. Maybe

44:15

more than the average person. Once

44:17

again, you're the experienced. Maybe you

44:20

haven't worked on Mara's, of course. You know it.

44:24

Maybe you've met Julia, talked to Julia,

44:26

everything. You're an expert on Brianna's disappearance.

44:29

Maybe not as much on Mara's, but you see enough connections

44:31

between them to really make you lean in

44:33

that direction. We actually work

44:36

for the Murray's and

44:38

we have for quite a while. But

44:42

again, I'm not speaking for Lou or

44:44

anybody else or whatever. What

44:48

I'm saying is that you

44:51

look at Mara's disappearance too. The

44:54

locals there. They

44:56

have just tapped that to

44:59

try to get information forever. Nothing's

45:03

been fruitful. I

45:07

get in trouble because people that

45:10

discuss on our Facebook page, I think they took

45:12

what I said kind of a little bit wrong.

45:16

There's a lot of information that gets gone over

45:21

ad nauseam. I think that just it's

45:25

minutia. The

45:31

information that you need just isn't there.

45:34

The piece of the puzzle, the finish the puzzle just

45:36

isn't there. It's

45:38

not something you can look at that information forever

45:40

and I don't think it's going to be productive. It's

45:42

just you need to have it. You

45:45

need to have all the information, but it's not what's

45:47

going to resolve this. It's

45:50

somewhere outside there. If

45:54

somebody was a local

45:57

did this and they

45:59

were like, alone and they have

46:01

the fortitude to keep this to themselves. They

46:05

could, you know, the deal you've done enough

46:07

of these. They

46:09

can keep it to themselves to like, you

46:11

know, we just did, uh, are you familiar

46:13

with Bill Thomas? It does.

46:15

Yeah. Yeah. I, I covered the, I know

46:17

I covered the colonial Parkway, uh, disappearances and

46:19

murders, uh, the end of 2022. So

46:22

I'm very, I've never, I've spoken to him like over

46:24

email. I've never talked to him on the phone or

46:26

over zoom, but we've had some email exchanges. Okay.

46:29

Well, they had, uh, a man

46:31

who died. That they realized

46:33

was responsible for a couple of those. I'm

46:37

not really up on it. They, uh, David

46:39

and Robin are the under

46:41

age, the 14 year old and 20 year old. David

46:45

knobbling and Robin, I

46:47

forget her last name, but those were the two

46:49

that they've shown proven through DNA. Yeah. Yeah.

46:52

So the point is though, that guy took

46:54

it to his grave, right? He didn't tell

46:56

anybody. Nobody knew. He operated alone and whatever.

46:59

So, I mean, if that's the case with

47:01

Brianna, if that's the case with more of

47:03

those, with one of those situations, again,

47:05

you may never know. I think within

47:08

his case, how did

47:10

they come up with that DNA? I forgot that in

47:12

his case, they had it from back, they had it

47:14

from back then. And

47:16

then he was connected to another murder. Remember

47:18

he murdered somebody else, another woman, and they

47:20

just eventually able

47:23

B, B, B, B, C. So

47:25

he will see type of situation. They couldn't do

47:27

it. So we died. So he passed away or

47:29

something. Um, put

47:34

me a little on a spike. I'm forgetting right at

47:36

this moment. But yeah, well, I

47:38

think it might've been he thinks of suspects when he

47:40

died. They took his DNA or something. Wasn't it? Yeah.

47:43

But he died. Either way, either way, 2016, you

47:45

think that would have been done. It was, I don't

47:47

know. It's a good question. Uh,

47:49

I probably should know that off the top of

47:51

my head, I don't, but it just seems to

47:54

me it was, had something though, to do with

47:56

this other murder, this woman murdered that did it.

47:58

I guess what I'm saying. not murdered

48:00

her and maybe they would have never connected him

48:02

to these two. Right. I think possibly. So,

48:06

you know, again, that's what are the chances

48:08

kind of thing, right? So, and

48:10

when you speak of what are the chances kind

48:12

of thing, stuff like that. So, the one death

48:15

in the book, do you remember the

48:17

boy named Craig Jack? Okay,

48:19

Craig Jackman was killed by Timothy Cruz. Five

48:23

years later, a man

48:26

stumbled upon Craig Jackman's skull, and

48:28

he brought it home with him. He called the police.

48:31

They went out, this professional dig. They found a lot

48:33

of phones. The majority of his bones and some clothing

48:35

and stuff like that. Had that

48:37

man not stumbled upon that skull in

48:39

76% worsted Vermont, you know, Cruz

48:45

never would have been held responsible for that. For sure.

48:47

And he would have gone on to do whatever he

48:49

would have done, right? Yeah. We

48:52

don't know. There's a lot of things to play here. All

48:54

I'm saying, I guess, is that it's

48:57

worth entertaining. Okay. Alright,

49:01

that's your professional opinion. You know, of course,

49:03

like you said, you're an expert on Brianna's.

49:05

You have experience with Morris. This is kind

49:07

of a conclusion that you say, you know

49:10

what? This is something that really

49:12

needs to be considered. It's

49:14

absolutely should be considered. Okay. For sure.

49:16

And there's no proof of that. Okay.

49:19

Let's move on to this. We've talked about the

49:21

book so much. Let's talk about that book right

49:24

now. First of all, what

49:26

is the title of the book? And

49:29

before we get into it, where can people get it?

49:31

How can they buy a copy? What's the title? Where

49:33

can they get it before we talk? Just going to

49:35

ask you a few questions about your writing and everything.

49:37

But what's the title? Where can they get it? It's

49:41

called The Hunt for Brianna Maitland. And

49:43

it's only sold through

49:45

my publisher. So if you Google the title,

49:47

it'll come up. My publisher, small publisher. Great

49:50

people. Really? And if you go to this

49:52

guy's store,

49:55

he's an author. He's written some fantastic books

49:57

on crimes in the Adirondacks. One of them.

50:00

was the escape from Dan Amora, Prison

50:03

Break, which was wild. And

50:07

Robert Garo, it's called Terror in

50:10

the Adirondacks, was a serial killer back in

50:12

the 70s who terrorized the Adirondacks and was

50:14

in Syracuse and stuff too. He ended

50:16

up escaping from Fishkill Prison. But

50:19

yeah, you

50:21

can get it from him. I mean, if

50:24

you go on his site, it'll list the

50:26

stores too that sold at Vermont. Or

50:28

you can just send me a message on Facebook and

50:30

I'll send you a signed copy if you purchase it

50:32

directly from me. Great.

50:35

All right. So the hunt for Brianna Maitland and

50:38

you just do a Google search for that

50:40

or you can find Greg on

50:42

Facebook or whatever if you want to get a signed copy

50:44

if they want one. Absolutely.

50:48

Okay. Let's talk just a little bit about what

50:50

motivates you after so many years. You didn't write

50:52

this book like in 2008. This is something more

50:54

recently. What was the final deciding factor

50:57

that said, you know what, I think it's time. I

51:00

had talked about it for a while and when

51:02

I was, when the pandemic hit, I was really

51:05

isolated. I mean, really bad. So

51:07

my brother said, you know, you got to do it now.

51:09

You've got time, you've got the material,

51:11

you know what you want to write.

51:14

Because I did, I just took it up as a project,

51:16

gave me something to do. It's kind of

51:18

stuck at home 24 seven for months and

51:20

months and months on end.

51:23

And it was an

51:25

experience. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But

51:27

I think it needed to be done just

51:29

to dispel some rumors and stuff like that.

51:31

You know what I mean? I

51:33

thought so. How long did it take you to

51:35

do it for the like the day you actually

51:37

made, you know, for me, I've written some books.

51:40

Of course, my unfound books, but I've written some

51:42

novels and things going back many, many,

51:44

many years. Me, I'm more of an outline guy.

51:46

Here's what I'm good. Here's the outline

51:48

for the book. And then I sit down to write

51:50

it kind of the same thing, or is this more

51:52

of a stream of conscious? How much did you plan

51:55

out? Which, you know, I knew

51:57

the story so well. I think that was

51:59

the thing. I knew

52:01

the story so well that

52:03

I just knew what I would want to tell people

52:05

if I was going to accept it. You know, when

52:08

people ask me about it, I'll say it's such a

52:10

long story. You know, you got a week, you

52:12

know, and they're like, oh, and I said, I'll say, reference

52:14

this or reference that and then let me know what questions

52:16

you have. Now, with the

52:19

book, I'm like, okay, if I was going to tell

52:21

somebody the story, this is what I would do. And

52:23

that's how I wrote it. But I

52:26

had like paperwork strewn everywhere

52:28

around the house. And so

52:31

I could just come back in the house and

52:33

just refer right to it and just start fresh

52:35

and just start right left off and just go,

52:38

you know, and

52:40

I wanted it to be all facts. And

52:45

so that when people read it, they knew they

52:47

learned something, they wanted the truth and they wanted to

52:49

know the deal, this was where you were going to get it

52:51

from. You know what I

52:53

mean? All right. So I don't really know what last

52:55

year, 2023 came out last year, correct? September

52:59

15th. I don't

53:01

even know how long it took me. I didn't even keep track.

53:04

But I mean, it wasn't

53:07

a long long time. I

53:10

just hammered away. Okay,

53:12

very good. Once again, the hunt

53:14

for Brianna Maitland, Google it

53:17

to get it from the actually the publisher, you have

53:19

a small publisher who has published it for you. But

53:22

if you'd like to get a signed copy from

53:24

Greg, you can try to track him down on

53:27

Facebook. I know he has a Facebook, you know,

53:29

his private Facebook page. And

53:31

maybe you can reach him that way if you'd

53:33

like to get a signed copy from him. Of

53:35

course, people do that for

53:37

some of the books that I've written

53:40

as well. So please, everybody, go check

53:42

that out. The hunt for Brianna

53:44

Maitland written by today's guest, Greg

53:47

O'Racker. One more question, and then we'll

53:49

get into all the social media stuff.

53:51

Question, now that you've been working on

53:53

this for 18 years, why has Brianna's

53:56

disappearance captured so much more attention than

53:58

most great, quote unquote, regular

54:00

people's disappearances. You've been in this, you've

54:02

been living this for 18 years. Your

54:04

best opinion on that. I,

54:08

you know, we never saw it that way.

54:10

We were always, we're

54:13

like, why did Morris case get so much

54:15

more attention? Well, I think I have the

54:17

answer. I think I have that answer. Initially,

54:20

the police said, you know, Brianna

54:22

was involved in drug activity in

54:25

Franklin County. And

54:27

I think consciously and subconsciously, people just said, oh,

54:29

it's a drug thing. You know, and

54:31

they moved on from there. And the mystery was

54:33

kind of gone, you know what I mean? But

54:36

the attention that's

54:38

gotten at this point, after all these

54:41

years, is because we just don't let

54:43

it go. You know, we've

54:45

gone out and done the work. And

54:48

we've been on podcasts and we've put

54:51

out a book and been on shows

54:53

and, you know, Lou goes out and

54:55

does podcasts too, you know, and we

54:57

did some together. So yeah,

55:00

we've kept it that way. And the

55:02

families built this relationship with the police

55:04

and, you know,

55:06

they've done rewards and press

55:09

releases and stuff like that. So it's work. That's

55:12

why it's that way, you know. How

55:17

can people reach you?

55:19

Of course, we already talked about your personal

55:21

Facebook page if they wanna get the book,

55:23

but there is a Facebook page set up

55:26

for Brianna's disappearance, website, maybe

55:28

your email address to somebody. If

55:30

somebody, you know, has some information,

55:32

they wanna contact you. Maybe

55:34

you wanna give out all of that right

55:36

now. So

55:38

my email's in the book. It's in

55:40

the beginning of the book. If anybody

55:42

wants to contact me, it says if

55:44

you wanna contact the author. It's hopsig

55:47

or HOP, S-I-C-K-E-R,@gmail.com. Okay.

55:49

You can go to private investigations for the missing website,

55:51

which is a very cool website. You can see all

55:53

the cool work they do. And you can

55:55

always reach out to someone to get my information from there. It's

55:58

not actually listed on there, but anyone would... answer you

56:00

tell you how to get ahold of me. If

56:02

you look me up on Facebook, all

56:04

I can tell you is I don't really, I'm not a big Facebook

56:07

guy, but I can tell you that my picture there

56:09

is Black Sabbath. It's a picture of a Black Sabbath

56:11

album with a little flying devil

56:13

angel there. What

56:16

else? You know, Lou

56:19

is the administrator of one of the brand of Facebook

56:21

pages. I'm not sure the exact name of it is to

56:23

be honest with you. There's three of them. But you reach

56:25

out on there, somebody will

56:28

get ahold of me, certainly can get ahold of me on

56:30

there. Okay. Greg,

56:33

any final words before we complete this interview?

56:37

I don't think so. I appreciate you having me on.

56:39

This was a great interview. And I love,

56:42

I love when people read the book and

56:44

give me some feedback. You

56:47

know, there's a lot of followers of Morris Case that

56:49

have read it. Got a lot

56:51

of good feedback from them. And she's got some

56:53

really steadfast

56:55

army there. Yeah.

56:57

Working on her behalf. And Brianna does too.

56:59

Brianna's got a lot of followers too. People

57:02

that are really nice. There's kind of a

57:04

cross over there, which is really cool. Yeah.

57:07

And you know,

57:10

okay, it's nice, it's nice

57:12

that there's all these people out there that want

57:14

the same result. You know,

57:18

right. Given that

57:20

I cover so many disappearances where, you

57:22

know, so many missing people don't have

57:24

armies like that. Yeah. You know,

57:26

we wish everybody there was a book like

57:28

you've written about Brianna. We wish there was

57:30

a book written about for all these disappearances.

57:32

You know, just an example, just doesn't happen.

57:34

You know, that was kind of a thing

57:36

with the organization that Bruce Maitland set up

57:38

private investigations for the missing that started years

57:40

ago with him and I talk and we'd

57:42

be together, you know, and just having

57:46

dinner or something. And I would say, people

57:48

can't afford, how would you ever afford this? You

57:50

know, because I did it for expenses only for

57:52

still 18 years. And

57:55

he's, I think we were like, we got to start

57:57

a nonprofit. He ended up doing it. And

58:00

It's helping tons of people. It's just an amazing thing

58:02

that that would come out of this, you know? Um,

58:07

yeah, it's been a long

58:09

road now. It's been a long, you

58:11

know, there's something

58:14

that people should know is that with

58:18

us and the police, we're

58:21

always working on this. I can call Lou almost

58:23

any day of the week and say, what's

58:25

new. And he'll tell me something that he did

58:27

on Brianna's case or Morris. And

58:30

it's not inconsequential stuff. You

58:32

know, if he's making phone calls, he's setting up

58:35

interviews, he'll call me. Are you ready?

58:37

Let's go Saturday. Well, I'll pick him up and

58:39

get a hotel room and start asking questions. We're

58:41

knocking on doors. There's a ton of stuff that

58:43

people don't see that happens. There's a ton of

58:45

motion. We

58:48

don't know all the stuff that the police says we know some of it,

58:50

but there, they

58:52

will tell you, you don't know

58:55

what you don't know. And

58:57

they've done a lot of work on it.

58:59

So there's just a lot of stuff that,

59:01

you know, I

59:03

would love to at some point expand on my

59:05

book and just add to it. As

59:10

time goes by, there's so much stuff I'd like to add

59:12

to it now. And there's so many experiences

59:14

and there's so many people that we've talked to. There's

59:17

so many open, there's so much open

59:19

ended stuff where we will

59:21

sit down and we'll go, do you remember the interview

59:23

with this person and this person? We're very

59:25

familiar in this person. Yeah,

59:28

there's nothing, there's nothing

59:30

evidence to connect these people. They came to

59:33

us as tips or whatever. But

59:37

unfortunately we're in that weird situation of, well, you can't rule

59:39

them out and man, some of this is

59:41

convincing stuff, really

59:44

convincing stuff. You know,

59:46

it's the same thing with Lawrence. There's

59:50

people that come up to us, they're on our radar. You're

59:53

like, this is compelling. This

59:55

is compelling. There's

59:58

no evidence of anything. and

1:00:00

there's pieces are missing and

1:00:03

that's stuff that's never made public so

1:00:07

it's it's mind-bending times you know

1:00:09

yeah it's a lot it's a

1:00:11

lot to think about all the time and to

1:00:13

try and as time goes on it gets bigger

1:00:16

and bigger sometimes yeah Greg

1:00:19

I appreciate you being on this episode

1:00:21

of Unfound thank

1:00:24

you for having me this is awesome I feel like I

1:00:26

made a new friend buddy oh

1:00:28

you're very welcome thank you and

1:00:31

that was my May 7th 2024

1:00:34

interview with Greg Overacker longtime

1:00:37

private investigator for the

1:00:39

Maitland family I

1:00:41

thank him for joining me and all

1:00:44

of you on this episode

1:00:46

on both audio and

1:00:49

video there

1:00:51

have been many map videos made

1:00:53

concerning Brianna's disappearance even

1:00:56

so I've made my own

1:00:59

please find it on

1:01:01

Unfound's YouTube channel before

1:01:04

I get into my long

1:01:06

summation I want to

1:01:08

remind all of you as to what

1:01:10

Greg said about the Maitland family being

1:01:12

asked to go on some of

1:01:14

those daytime talk shows the

1:01:17

shows requested that the family had

1:01:19

to act a certain way in

1:01:22

fact just about insisting that

1:01:24

the family cry this

1:01:27

is the exact reason I've counseled

1:01:29

my guests to never

1:01:32

go on those shows ever and

1:01:35

for all of you stop

1:01:37

watching them Dr. Phil

1:01:40

all of them you

1:01:42

are being manipulated these

1:01:44

are not good people running

1:01:47

these shows okay

1:01:50

now my summation and

1:01:52

I don't know how long this will go and given

1:01:55

its length I'm just using notes and

1:01:57

not reading for the next video from

1:02:00

the screen, so please bear with

1:02:02

the ums, you knows, etc. As

1:02:06

you would expect, I have been reading a

1:02:08

lot of analysis on Brianna's disappearance over the

1:02:10

past couple of weeks. WebSloos,

1:02:12

blogs, Greg's own book,

1:02:14

newspaper accounts going back

1:02:17

to 2004-2005. A

1:02:20

lot of reading because a lot

1:02:23

of coverage has been done on her disappearance

1:02:25

over the past 20 years, unlike

1:02:28

a lot of disappearances that we have

1:02:30

featured on Unfound. So

1:02:32

for my own analysis, I'm going to

1:02:34

use what I know best, Unfound's

1:02:37

own disappearances, and

1:02:40

some of the conclusions about missing people

1:02:43

that I've deduced from them. And

1:02:46

I hope this will assist you

1:02:48

with your own analysis. Left

1:02:52

and foremost, disappearances are

1:02:54

about people, not circumstances.

1:02:57

If you give me the background

1:02:59

of a missing person, addict or

1:03:01

not, rich or poor, mental health

1:03:04

issues or not, kinds of relationships,

1:03:06

education, on and on

1:03:08

and on, just

1:03:11

from those items, the most probable

1:03:13

reason for a person's disappearance can

1:03:15

be predicted to a high

1:03:17

degree of certainty. How

1:03:20

can we apply this theory to Brianna? Well,

1:03:23

there are warning signs. No

1:03:26

constant home dropped out

1:03:28

of school. That's a big one. Drug

1:03:31

use all around her. Recent

1:03:34

breakup with James. The

1:03:36

dust up with her friend Keely. In

1:03:39

fact, overall, seemingly, she

1:03:42

was surrounded by a bunch of losers. It

1:03:46

only started the jobs she

1:03:48

had recently, although I

1:03:50

won't note that she was only 17. Yep,

1:03:54

I know she loved her family. They were

1:03:56

close. I don't doubt that. However,

1:03:59

we also have to remember that parents

1:04:01

are committing suicide all the time.

1:04:04

That doesn't necessarily mean they don't

1:04:06

love their children. And

1:04:09

I think we all learned quite a bit when

1:04:11

we found out about what happened to

1:04:13

Mary Jane Van Gilder, who

1:04:15

was married, had children, but disappeared

1:04:18

in 1945 only for Adam Turner to find out

1:04:23

here in the 21st century in February

1:04:25

of 2024 that Mary Jane found a

1:04:27

new husband and

1:04:31

had new children and

1:04:33

lived with it till her death in 1990. That

1:04:35

doesn't mean she

1:04:39

didn't love her first children.

1:04:41

Remember that. Overall,

1:04:43

regarding who Brianna was as

1:04:45

a person, she

1:04:48

falls into a category where running

1:04:50

off becomes a real possibility, still

1:04:53

percentage-wise low, but

1:04:55

still much much higher than kids

1:04:58

who don't have anything in the

1:05:00

above list going on. Well

1:05:03

then, I guess that means she staged

1:05:05

her disappearance. She ran her own car

1:05:07

into the house. Brianna put the lime

1:05:09

on the trunk. She ripped up her

1:05:11

own necklace, left the doors open, left

1:05:13

the lights on, all of it. Well,

1:05:16

maybe, but it's not that

1:05:18

simple. Going back through Unsound's catalog

1:05:20

of now 330 disappearances, I can only cite four where

1:05:28

the belief is that the missing

1:05:30

people or person staged their own

1:05:32

disappearances. Four out of 330.

1:05:34

That's only just over 1%. Which ones are they?

1:05:42

Gregory Howes, Flight

1:05:45

370, Dale

1:05:47

Kerstetter, and maybe Bernard

1:05:49

Rusnus and Peggy McKay.

1:05:52

That's it. To

1:05:55

make sure we're all clear here, what

1:05:57

exactly do I mean by staged?

1:06:00

That the missing people themselves did

1:06:03

things, actions and

1:06:05

or statements, to

1:06:07

mislead friends and family and

1:06:09

then investigators as to what

1:06:11

actually happened. This

1:06:14

is in contrast to when husbands say,

1:06:16

yeah, my wife took off

1:06:18

with somebody I don't know in

1:06:20

a white truck. That

1:06:22

is a different kind of staging.

1:06:25

That is being done by a third party,

1:06:27

not by the missing person himself or herself.

1:06:30

And to clarify, the staging by the

1:06:33

missing person has to be overt, not

1:06:36

just a car being left on a logging

1:06:38

road or something. And we

1:06:40

certainly have that with the scene at the

1:06:42

abandoned house. Well

1:06:45

then, I guess since the percentage is so

1:06:47

low that there's hardly any chance that Brianna

1:06:49

could have staged her own disappearance. But

1:06:53

wait. You

1:06:55

have to remember something about the way

1:06:57

this podcast goes about its business. A

1:07:00

disappearance has to be a year old to be

1:07:02

featured in it. In

1:07:04

addition, and probably more importantly, the

1:07:07

average age of a disappearance on

1:07:09

Unfound is between 20 and 22

1:07:12

years old, so right around the age

1:07:14

that Brianna's disappearance is. In

1:07:16

addition to both those facts, as

1:07:19

a guy who reads missing person's

1:07:21

news every day, probably

1:07:23

once a month I do read a story

1:07:26

about somebody who tried to fake his or

1:07:28

her disappearance but did not

1:07:30

succeed. Thus my

1:07:32

perception is maybe this isn't

1:07:35

as uncommon as Unfound's own

1:07:37

stats might show. Well

1:07:40

how could that be? Well

1:07:42

it is possible that the reason Unfound

1:07:45

has only featured four staged

1:07:47

by the actual missing persons

1:07:49

themselves disappearances is

1:07:51

because all the other people who tried it

1:07:53

failed. Maybe in the

1:07:55

first month, the sixth month, the first

1:07:57

year, the fifth year, whenever. Meaning,

1:08:00

yes, the successful attempts at people staging

1:08:03

their own disappearances that stayed unresolved to

1:08:05

the point that Unfound can feature them

1:08:07

is just 1%. However,

1:08:10

the overall attempts, failed

1:08:13

or not, is a

1:08:15

much, much higher percentage. In

1:08:18

a nutshell, people attempting to stage

1:08:20

their own disappearances is more common

1:08:23

than Unfound's stats may show due

1:08:26

to Unfound only featuring

1:08:28

unsolved disappearances, not

1:08:31

botched staged ones. Overall,

1:08:35

no matter how you look at it, staged

1:08:37

disappearances by the missing people

1:08:40

themselves is a very small

1:08:42

sliver of the overall entire

1:08:44

disappearance pie. Well

1:08:47

then, that settles it. Somebody abducted

1:08:49

her that night. See,

1:08:52

that's not clear either. Why?

1:08:57

Going back to Unfound's catalog, and I

1:08:59

should state, I do believe that Unfound's

1:09:02

entire 330 rep-retoir of

1:09:04

disappearances is a random sample

1:09:06

of disappearances that occur. Of

1:09:08

course, we mostly cover disappearances

1:09:10

in the United States. But

1:09:14

myself, my assistants, other

1:09:17

people out there who bring families to

1:09:19

me and introduce me to families, I'm

1:09:23

not looking for particular types of

1:09:26

disappearances. Everybody knows I will talk

1:09:28

to anybody. Any

1:09:31

type of person, as long as I believe

1:09:33

that person is being honest, is

1:09:35

welcome to come on Unfound. That

1:09:38

is why I believe that we have

1:09:40

a random sample of disappearances. And

1:09:43

it very well may be, we may be off

1:09:45

on the

1:09:47

gender percentage, or ethnicity,

1:09:49

or race, anything like that. But

1:09:52

that's not planned. This

1:09:54

has just been how randomly it has

1:09:57

happened. And yes, I do believe, due

1:09:59

to that, that unfound

1:10:01

catalog of disappearances can be

1:10:03

used for scientific and

1:10:06

statistical purposes. And I

1:10:08

will remind you, even in a country of 330 million

1:10:11

people, all that

1:10:13

pollster has to do is poll 100

1:10:15

random likely voters. And

1:10:20

that pollster has a pretty good chance of predicting who

1:10:22

the next president of the United States would be. So

1:10:24

100 people out of 330 million, I realize only adults

1:10:26

can vote, so let's say 250 million. So

1:10:32

100 out of 250 million

1:10:35

people, if you

1:10:37

poll them, you have a pretty good chance of

1:10:40

determining who the next president will be. Well,

1:10:43

we've featured 330 disappearances on Unfound,

1:10:45

and at least in the United

1:10:47

States, there are considered to be

1:10:49

100,000 unsolved disappearances. So

1:10:52

if those pollsters are using science,

1:10:56

statistical science, then

1:10:58

we here at Unfound are

1:11:00

surely using statistical science too. So

1:11:04

going back to Unfound's catalog, once again, 330 disappearances in

1:11:06

which about 10% of those have been resolved at this

1:11:08

point. I

1:11:14

picked out females' disappearances that

1:11:16

were most likely abductions. Well,

1:11:19

how do I define abduction?

1:11:22

I define it this way. Where

1:11:24

there is ample reason to believe

1:11:26

a female was forcibly taken away

1:11:29

from wherever she is to be

1:11:31

killed elsewhere, meaning she

1:11:33

wasn't lured away. She

1:11:35

didn't choose to go with her

1:11:38

abductor or abductors or the people

1:11:40

or the group or whoever. In

1:11:43

addition, there is no scientific evidence

1:11:45

to think she was killed in

1:11:47

her own home, car, apartment, etc.,

1:11:49

wherever the abduction started, then transported

1:11:52

elsewhere already deceased. This

1:11:54

definition rules out one of the most common

1:11:57

types of disappearances featured on Unfound. That

1:12:00

type is females killed under their

1:12:02

own roofs or roofs By

1:12:05

the men in their lives who also

1:12:07

live there There are 16

1:12:10

unfound disappearances that meet this

1:12:13

general criteria of abduction Yes,

1:12:16

I think a much lower number than many of you

1:12:18

would think We've featured

1:12:20

the disappearances of 189 females so women and

1:12:23

girls on unfound So

1:12:28

only about 8% were abductions

1:12:31

That's it So

1:12:34

somewhat rare the

1:12:36

names of those females Susie

1:12:38

Lyle Regina Marie boss Linda

1:12:41

K. Carroll Debbie low

1:12:43

Evelyn Hartley McKell Biggs

1:12:46

Kimberly Ramer Dorianne Myers

1:12:48

Tiffany Johnson Julie Weflin

1:12:50

unique Harris Jody

1:12:52

who's intrude Pearl pinson

1:12:54

Brenda Condon Angela

1:12:56

Freeman page Rancosky

1:13:01

There are some things about this list though

1:13:03

that need to be

1:13:05

understood out of that 16

1:13:07

there is reason to believe that at least 10

1:13:09

of them knew their attackers well Lyle

1:13:13

boss Carol low Ramer

1:13:15

Myers Johnson Weflin Harris

1:13:18

and Freeman

1:13:20

and Really there's only

1:13:22

two where we can say for

1:13:24

sure that the females didn't know

1:13:26

their attackers at all before the

1:13:28

abductions happened That

1:13:30

would be page Rancosky and Pearl

1:13:33

pinson Also of

1:13:35

that 16 six are

1:13:37

underage at least by US standards

1:13:39

like Brianna was low

1:13:42

Hartley Biggs Ramer pinson

1:13:45

Freeman in In addition

1:13:47

the idea I got from Greg in

1:13:49

the interview his best insight is

1:13:51

that there is reason to believe Brianna at

1:13:54

least had casual knowledge of her abductor a

1:13:56

guy who had come in to her workplace looking

1:13:59

for her Meaning Brianna's

1:14:01

disappearance should most likely be put

1:14:03

with remaining four on

1:14:05

the preceding list. Hartley,

1:14:08

Biggs, Hoosentrut, Condon.

1:14:12

So coincidentally, we come down to

1:14:15

that four number, just like we

1:14:17

did with staged disappearances. That

1:14:20

was not planned. In

1:14:23

a nutshell, out of 189 female

1:14:26

disappearances featured on Unfound,

1:14:29

only four excluding Brianna's

1:14:32

is most likely an abduction by a

1:14:35

person or group the

1:14:37

woman or girl casually knew.

1:14:41

That's it. Granted,

1:14:43

if you think James caused

1:14:45

Brianna's disappearance, then Brianna

1:14:48

could be put in with Susie Lyle and

1:14:50

that group. Still,

1:14:53

it's only ten. In

1:14:55

addition, if you're wondering how many of those 16 abductions

1:14:58

had situations where the victim's vehicles

1:15:00

were left in odd locations, granted

1:15:02

some of these were little girls

1:15:04

so they couldn't drive, but the

1:15:07

answer is four, although a

1:15:10

different four. Myers,

1:15:13

Weflin, Freeman, Wrenkoski.

1:15:17

My point on this is,

1:15:19

yes, I think most people

1:15:21

somehow inherently understand that staged

1:15:23

disappearances by the missing people

1:15:25

themselves are rare. However,

1:15:29

what I think the public doesn't

1:15:31

appreciate is how rare disappearances are

1:15:34

in which a man abducted a

1:15:36

female he barely knew, and that

1:15:39

case lasted unsolved for over

1:15:41

20 years. And

1:15:44

oh, do males get abducted? Stevie

1:15:47

Hammerly and Joe Grashner had that

1:15:49

happen to them. We just recently

1:15:51

covered their disappearances. So they

1:15:54

do, but at a much

1:15:56

lower rate than women and girls, according

1:15:59

to Unfound. What

1:16:03

neither of these statistical examinations cover

1:16:05

is this. Factually,

1:16:09

it is possible that Brianna drove to

1:16:11

somebody's house after work, something

1:16:13

of a violent nature happened there, I

1:16:16

guess within minutes of her arriving, and

1:16:19

then that killer or killers backed her car

1:16:21

into that house to

1:16:24

make it look like Brianna did it or

1:16:26

something. There is

1:16:28

not one fact to

1:16:30

dispute that possibility. Yeah,

1:16:33

I know, crazy, but

1:16:35

hey, never

1:16:38

say never. And

1:16:40

that's the program. Right

1:16:42

now, while you are in

1:16:44

your podcast platform, Spotify, YouTube,

1:16:46

iTunes, wherever, give

1:16:48

Unfound a five star review, a thumbs

1:16:51

up, whatever that platform

1:16:53

allows. I thank you

1:16:55

for listening. I'm at

1:16:57

Denzel, and you've

1:16:59

just finished this episode

1:17:01

of Unfound.