0:00

One of the things that made it a little bit easier was when

0:02

we moved to Africa , we were living in a culture

0:04

that was English speaking . Yes , yeah

0:06

, it does make a difference .

0:07

Yes .

0:08

What was a little bit different for me , I think

0:10

, is that I carried over this intercultural

0:13

worldview perception that

0:15

I had that I could

0:17

see when I saw someone or

0:19

heard them , looked at the way they dressed

0:22

, saw their family rituals , then

0:24

I knew what their culture was like , mmm

0:26

. And so I think

0:29

, moving there and understanding

0:31

that , I really was lacking

0:33

in my understanding .

0:47

Welcome to the cultural agility

0:49

podcast , where we explore the stories

0:52

of some of the most advanced intercultural

0:54

practitioners from around the world to

0:57

help you become culturally agile and

0:59

succeed in today's culturally complex

1:01

world . I'm your host , mark R Blankenberg

1:04

, international Director of KnowledgeWorks , where

1:06

every day , we help individuals and

1:08

companies achieve relational

1:10

success in that same complex

1:13

world .

1:17

Welcome everyone . We're so excited

1:19

again . We have a very

1:21

special guest today . She

1:24

is a person that I highly respect

1:26

and I'm so excited

1:28

to ask her questions about her experience

1:31

. I actually

1:33

introduced her to ICI and

1:36

she has taken it

1:38

and run with it and done so many things with it , and

1:40

I'm so excited to hear what she has

1:42

done and for her to tell her story . Her

1:45

name is Nancy Wolff . Hello Nancy

1:47

, hello Shelly .

1:48

Welcome . So the first thing I was excited about the day

1:50

was when we met and had this conversation that started the whole

1:52

thing I will never forget it

1:54

.

1:55

It was such a special memory and to

1:57

see where we are today , here together

2:00

, making this podcast , talking

2:02

about how you've used ICI

2:04

and the impact it's had .

2:06

I'm excited to do that . It's something I've grown more

2:08

and more passionate about .

2:10

Can't wait . So thank you for

2:12

being here today . Let's go

2:14

ahead and get started , and I'd love to

2:16

first hear your story , kind

2:20

of who you are , where you started , kind

2:22

of your background . Could you just sort of start

2:24

there and then we'll expand

2:27

from there , sure .

2:29

Thanks , first of all , for inviting me , absolutely .

2:31

It was a privilege to be able to share today .

2:33

So a little bit about me . I

2:35

am from the United States originally

2:38

. I grew up in a really

2:40

medium sized town with

2:42

what I thought was an intercultural

2:45

experience . Thought

2:47

I was living in a very diverse area

2:50

, but to

2:52

me that just meant my Barbies were

2:54

white and the girl down the street I played with

2:56

her Barbies were brown .

2:57

You know I mean in the early days . I would have said

2:59

that was intercultural .

3:02

I grew up and ended up marrying my high

3:05

school boyfriend and after

3:07

that we had four daughters and we

3:09

just happily lived within a number

3:11

of streets from our entire family

3:13

. Wow , so very small

3:16

circumference that

3:18

I drew from , from my world view , very

3:21

limited in the exposure . Then

3:24

, yeah , we ended up having four daughters

3:26

who are now married , and we have the

3:28

blessing of 14 grandchildren . So that's

3:30

kind of me from then

3:32

until now . Yeah .

3:35

So when did you first kind

3:37

of experience intercultural

3:41

living ? When did it start

3:43

for you ?

3:44

Yes , yeah , yeah , pretty

3:47

eye-opening experience that in

3:49

our mid-30s we were very

3:51

settled and in our life , but

3:54

we traveled for the first time outside

3:57

of our home country into

3:59

a pretty small island nation

4:01

in Asia and

4:03

it opened our eyes

4:06

to the world . Wow , it

4:08

became more than just what we saw on TV and

4:10

movies . Places that

4:12

we saw look different , but

4:14

to be able to experience it firsthand

4:16

on the ground really changed

4:20

our whole look at life . Wow

4:22

, we came home and thought are we doing

4:25

what we really want to be doing with our

4:27

life ? And , yeah , that

4:29

created a desire to

4:31

move cross-culturally

4:33

to serve . We ended

4:35

up joining a faith-based organization

4:38

to be able to live abroad

4:40

and to be able to serve people outside of the

4:42

home country . That we knew . Wow , and

4:45

you took your daughters , we did

4:47

, we did . It was quite a big

4:49

change for them . They ranged in age

4:52

at that point from 7 to 17

4:54

. Wow , it was a huge

4:57

transition for every member of our

4:59

family .

5:00

Wow , yes , and the 17-year-old

5:02

?

5:03

she was , yeah

5:05

, close to being a son

5:07

and daughter , and I would say that even now , all

5:09

of our children are different people because

5:12

we made that change in

5:14

our life . In fact , two of them did

5:17

return and live in our home country

5:19

, but two of them still live in Africa .

5:21

Wow .

5:22

And that's where we ended up moving , just

5:24

before we turned 40 . Amazing

5:27

. So kind of a late-life

5:29

change .

5:30

Yes , but how brave

5:32

and risky .

5:36

I do agree with the risky part .

5:39

It seemed risky at the time . You

5:42

know , my husband left a thriving business career , wow

5:45

and it seemed

5:47

like our daughters were all at ages where

5:49

we knew this was going to be really pivotal and

5:52

formative for them in

5:54

their future .

5:56

Wow yeah .

5:59

So one of the things

6:01

that made it a little bit easier was when we moved

6:03

to Africa , we were living in a culture that was

6:05

English-speaking . Yes , that doesn't

6:07

make a difference . Yes , and

6:09

what made it a little bit different for me , I think , is that I

6:11

carried over this intercultural

6:13

worldview perception that

6:15

I had that I could

6:17

see when I saw someone or

6:20

heard them , looked at the way they dressed

6:22

, saw their family rituals , then

6:24

I knew what their culture was like . So

6:28

I think , moving there and

6:30

understanding that I really

6:32

was lacking in my understanding

6:35

of what an intercultural worldview

6:38

really is , and

6:40

recognizing that I wasn't agile

6:42

in navigating all of those things

6:44

, yes , so

6:46

yeah , so that was my question what were

6:48

some of your impressions ?

6:50

So you've come from a generally

6:53

monocultural way

6:55

of seeing the world up to almost

6:57

the age of 40 . Yeah , and you completely

7:00

live abroad , and

7:03

what were some of your impressions ?

7:05

Yeah Well , I think one way to give

7:07

some perspective to our personal experience

7:09

is to understand that we moved to

7:11

South Africa only seven years

7:14

past the election of Nelson

7:16

Mandela as president . So that

7:18

gives you a bit of perception of what was

7:20

happening in the country at the time and

7:23

, coming from a faith-based organization

7:26

, we had the desire to

7:28

bring together cultures

7:30

within . South Africa , and

7:33

so my perception

7:36

that I could look at someone and hear

7:38

them speak and kind of look at how they

7:40

dress , and that led me to understand

7:42

them , was crashed and burned

7:44

right away . And

7:46

I understood that there were so

7:48

many things I didn't know , so many things

7:51

that were so much deeper than

7:53

what I could see and perceive

7:55

on the surface . So

7:58

I appreciate the

8:00

ICI training that I've received

8:02

. I just wish I'd had it about 25 years

8:04

ago .

8:05

Yes , In your interpersonal

8:08

relationships there early on

8:10

. So you saw that

8:12

someone had a different cultural

8:14

worldview than you . You saw that they maybe

8:16

thought , spoke differently

8:19

on a deeper level and you

8:22

thought , wow , OK , this

8:24

is different and I'm not sure how to relate

8:27

.

8:28

Yes , because soon after arriving

8:30

we started desiring to

8:32

build teams , intercultural teams

8:34

and you find

8:36

very quickly that people don't

8:38

respond the way that you would expect them to

8:40

. I came from a

8:43

culture that was predominantly

8:45

very direct speakers and

8:47

I went into a culture that

8:50

was a

8:52

complex mixture of

8:54

power , fear and honor shame

8:56

, and when we started building teams it

8:59

seemed as though we were all focusing

9:01

on the same common purpose and

9:03

the same vision and mission . But

9:07

at the end of

9:09

the day , I think in those early

9:11

years I just didn't understand

9:13

how some of the dynamics of my

9:16

worldview and culture were impacting

9:18

communication , trust

9:21

, relationships

9:25

, and once I started

9:27

to understand that I was

9:29

navigating a new terrain and I

9:31

don't think other people understood me

9:33

and I certainly didn't understand them Right

9:36

that I started realizing

9:38

there's so much below the surface

9:40

, kind of in that iceberg

9:43

visual that we use in the training

9:45

I recognized there

9:48

was so much more under the surface than

9:50

what I could see above the surface , and

9:53

that's the part of the training . I think that's helped

9:55

me the most .

9:56

You wrote up . Something that I love

9:58

about the way we train

10:01

is that we start with ourselves First

10:03

. We understand our own worldview

10:05

and from that place of self-understanding

10:07

we can understand others , so

10:10

that I love that and I love that

10:12

use , you know , once

10:14

we understand that part .

10:17

Yeah , I mean . Another way that I've learned

10:19

is I'm very time-oriented

10:22

, and so

10:25

when relationship building takes

10:27

time before

10:29

you can get to those deeper levels , to

10:31

have open communication and build

10:34

trust , I'm

10:36

very quick to get to the point and let's

10:38

move on with this and let's decide . And

10:40

sometimes I can leave people behind

10:43

in that or uncomfortable

10:46

, in a feeling of tension

10:48

, like I don't know if I can share my true

10:50

feelings with with her . So

10:53

yeah , that's been

10:55

helpful to learn that through the training .

10:57

Yeah , yeah , that's , that's

10:59

one of the dimensions on the 12

11:02

dimensions of culture that we talk about . Were

11:05

there any other problems , like specific

11:07

things that you saw , like any

11:09

other , you know , relational

11:11

things that , looking

11:15

back , what about friendships

11:17

? Were they easy to make in South Africa

11:20

?

11:21

If they were easy

11:23

to make , because it's

11:25

. It's a culture where a

11:28

lot of people are very revealing

11:31

of their emotions and I'm

11:34

very much like that too , and

11:36

so I could connect with most

11:39

of the people that I came into

11:41

contact with . What is interesting

11:43

, shelley , is about five years ago we moved

11:46

away from Africa and into

11:48

the Middle East South Asian region , and that

11:52

was really my first time of being in more

11:54

of an honor shame culture and some

11:56

of the ways that I found easy

11:59

to connect in one culture

12:01

were completely different

12:04

, and so the journey to learn more

12:06

about myself and how to relate

12:08

to others just continued to expand

12:10

and grow .

12:11

Wow , yes , so you mean

12:13

you're living in one and you're

12:16

like I can connect Finally

12:18

, am I understanding ? This Well in South

12:20

Africa . They're more like you . They're more expressive

12:23

again that's a 12th dimension , 12th

12:25

, one of the dimensions . And then in

12:27

South Asia

12:30

they were not . So

12:32

you're like this is so different and we're

12:34

learning a new way of connecting Exactly

12:36

. Wow . What

12:39

about when

12:42

? So let's talk about when you . You

12:45

came to Dubai and we met

12:47

, and talking

12:50

about when you were first introduced to ICI . What

12:52

made you interested in ICI , like

12:55

at the gut level , like what was happening , that

12:57

you were like this meets a need , sort

13:00

of on that level .

13:02

At that point , my husband was in a leadership

13:05

position , and so we were working quite

13:07

a bit with teams , intercultural

13:09

teams and a variety of different countries

13:12

, and I found each one to

13:14

be very different and the dynamics were

13:16

harder to understand , because

13:18

there were so many new things

13:20

that we needed to relate

13:22

to , and some of them

13:25

were quite surprising . One

13:27

instance is we were working

13:29

with a team that was experiencing some

13:31

conflict , and it was

13:33

an older team that had developed

13:35

over many years , and so some of the workers

13:38

not only were they older

13:40

in age , but they'd

13:42

been in their new culture long

13:45

enough that their primary driver

13:47

or the worldview that they came

13:49

into the country with was

13:51

a different because of their 25

13:54

, 30 35 years of

13:56

serving and acclimating to

13:58

the people that they were working with

14:00

and so we would bring

14:02

new workers into that dynamic

14:05

from the same culture , thinking

14:07

they would be the same in their thinking

14:10

, only to realize

14:12

that , coming from the same passport

14:14

country , not only

14:16

did their generational

14:18

differences have an impact , but

14:21

the change of their worldview

14:23

. Just because they

14:25

came from the same place didn't mean they were gonna see

14:27

their new culture or their work

14:29

environment or their relationships

14:32

and how to do team , how

14:34

to hold meetings all of those

14:37

things were impacted .

14:38

Interesting , even though

14:40

on the surface they seemed

14:42

like they would have been the same right

14:44

so , in other words , you're

14:47

thinking these workers are from the same country

14:50

, so they're from the same country

14:52

. They were all raised there , we're

14:54

working with them , right . So we should agree

14:56

on how to hold a meeting

14:58

, how to do the things of these things . But

15:00

the workers that have been there for 20 years have

15:03

sort of adapted to the cultural

15:06

norms around them and the cultural worldviews

15:08

and made that a part of them .

15:10

Yeah , not just a part of them , but

15:13

their preference Interesting

15:15

, wow , yes , and preference

15:18

is huge , I think , when you're working in intercultural

15:21

relationships , because there are so many preferences

15:23

that we have Just naturally

15:26

built into our wiring in

15:28

the way we think that in other

15:30

cultures , if they're not valued highly

15:33

or they're just looked at as

15:35

honorable or shameful or

15:38

how do you interact in public

15:40

versus at home , versus on

15:42

team , and who

15:44

do you respect and

15:47

honor , who don't you ? I mean , there's so

15:49

many dynamics but sometimes we found

15:51

that workers who had been there

15:54

and established in their team longer

15:56

agreed more with their international partners

15:59

than they did with people we brought in

16:01

and mobilized into that environment

16:03

. So , yeah , it was

16:05

an interesting twist that just created

16:08

a desire for me to learn more . And

16:10

then I met you , and

16:14

the ICI training was a tool

16:16

that has equipped us a

16:18

lot more than we had been before

16:20

.

16:21

So you got certified and

16:24

do you think you were able to apply it right away

16:26

?

16:28

Well , I think I have been working to apply it . I'm

16:30

fairly newly certified I'm two to

16:32

three years in and I've

16:35

been able to apply it in preparing

16:38

other workers who are going

16:40

to the field , or leaders

16:42

who are working to train

16:44

intercultural workers , and

16:47

that's kind of where my passion is now . In

16:50

fact , we'll soon be

16:52

making a move back to our home country where

16:54

I'll be able to work more on an organizational

16:56

level , and

16:59

my goal is to train people

17:01

who are going to other countries to

17:03

work and serve so that they don't

17:05

have to go through the same growing pains that

17:07

I personally experienced before

17:10

I had this training . I find it to

17:12

be so helpful .

17:13

So you think that just by understanding

17:16

someone's own worldview before

17:19

they leave ?

17:21

Completely . If we don't understand

17:23

who we are , we are

17:25

not going to be able to prefer

17:28

and love others well . That's

17:30

really at the heart , I feel , of my

17:32

mission is living cross-culturally

17:34

is for us to have effective

17:37

relationships , effective teams

17:39

. We need to be the

17:41

ones who are willing to prefer others rather

17:45

than well , this is how I am . You just need

17:47

to acknowledge how I do

17:49

things and how I

17:51

see things . So

17:54

I think understanding yourself

17:56

better is key to being but being

17:58

able to work effectively and be

18:01

highly productive in whatever your common

18:03

purpose is to work together .

18:06

Wow , nancy . I love that . It's beautiful

18:08

. So you're going

18:10

to train workers to understand

18:12

themselves better and then

18:15

give them the tools to understand others

18:17

better . Give them the cultural

18:20

worldviews that will help them give

18:22

grace , understand . Give

18:24

them the tools to work better .

18:27

So to be less judgmental

18:29

and stand typical

18:31

and put people in Exactly

18:34

, and I think it will help workers that are going

18:36

to establish teams and works that are

18:38

going that have been ongoing for some time

18:41

, as I mentioned earlier . But I think

18:43

it's going to be particularly helpful for teams

18:45

that are going to a new place .

18:47

Yeah when there's not .

18:48

There aren't the people there that they can

18:50

ask why is this happening

18:52

? Why are we connecting ? I

18:54

don't feel like there's trust or I'm sensing

18:57

tension . If you're going to

18:59

a new place and doing something that nobody's done

19:01

before which happens

19:04

frequently or you're

19:06

working in a way where there's lots of remote

19:08

workers here in

19:10

one location , but the people

19:12

you're working with are spread out in different

19:15

countries on different continents , it's

19:18

just going to be a whole lot more effective to understand

19:21

how to work with them , build

19:23

teams with them and really build

19:25

relationships .

19:28

You know , one thing I hear you saying is

19:31

really humility .

19:36

Wow , it takes a lot of that , doesn't it , Shelly

19:38

?

19:39

I mean , you've lived cross-culturally and

19:41

you know that

19:43

sometimes pride is our biggest obstacle

19:45

and sometimes we don't

19:47

even realize that

19:51

pride is an obstacle

19:53

, because I don't even realize that I have

19:55

a cultural worldview that I'm looking at

19:57

the rest of the world through . I

19:59

don't even realize that this is my lens

20:02

and it's shaping how I see other people

20:04

and I'm expecting them to

20:06

be a certain way . I don't even realize

20:08

it .

20:10

And we don't understand that a lot of what we

20:12

do should be done with the goal

20:14

of how it's going

20:16

to be perceived .

20:18

How will ?

20:18

they perceive me instead of

20:20

what do I want to present . You

20:24

know , I think when you're starting

20:26

to look at the end goal of your communication

20:29

, it doesn't matter so much in

20:31

how you do it . It's whether you're going

20:33

in the right direction to

20:35

build the relationship , to come

20:37

to an agreement , to resolve

20:39

a conflict .

20:41

Yes , and

20:44

one of the things that we learn about in

20:46

the training which I think is challenging

20:48

and almost provoking

20:51

is that we need to take responsibility

20:54

for the responses that

20:56

we trigger in an intercultural

20:58

setting . And wow , and

21:04

we can do that . When we're humble , when

21:06

we're open , when we say OK

21:09

, I triggered a

21:11

defensive response in someone , or someone

21:13

was offended , instead of responding

21:15

and like well , but

21:18

being curious .

21:19

You know , my goodness , being curious is

21:21

huge . I

21:25

think , just recognizing that we

21:27

may have more education , we may

21:30

have more experience , that doesn't mean

21:32

that we're the expert Right . Yeah

21:36

, and that takes a lot of humility

21:38

to realize that you come into every

21:40

situation as a learner .

21:43

As a learner , as a cultural

21:45

learner .

21:46

A cultural learner versus a cultural critic

21:48

, which is another thing that was pointed out

21:50

to me in the training , is I

21:52

don't think I actually recognize the

21:54

fact that I lacked humility

21:56

when being exposed to a culture

21:59

that was different than my own and

22:01

trying to find the value in their differences

22:04

rather than proving why

22:06

my way was right .

22:07

Right ? Yes , and

22:10

sometimes you don't even realize you're trying to prove that

22:12

your way is right . You

22:14

know you're doing it and you're like this I'm so uncomfortable

22:16

right now . Why ? Exactly

22:19

Because there's this other

22:21

way and I don't understand it and it's making

22:23

me uncomfortable . But yes , it's

22:26

all of that .

22:27

We talk about culture shock and I think

22:29

one of the reasons I wanna work with workers

22:31

who are just starting their journey is

22:33

to understand if you're

22:36

experiencing tension and

22:38

emotional drain

22:40

from working so

22:42

hard to maybe learn a

22:45

new language and understand

22:47

relationship building , and why is

22:49

there tension on my team ? That

22:52

that's okay . It should be expected it should

22:54

be understood .

22:55

Yes , it's normal .

22:56

It's normal because you're working so

22:58

hard to work outside

23:01

of your preferences and what are

23:03

your own personal behavioral norms

23:05

so that you can build

23:07

trust with someone who sees

23:09

things differently than you . And

23:11

that's not something that goes away after four

23:14

months or a year . It

23:16

could be completely ongoing , that

23:18

extra tension and stress and it

23:20

needs to be managed ?

23:23

Yeah , it does , and I

23:26

think that intercultural

23:28

agility , the tools that

23:30

we teach at Nelljorks , give

23:32

you practical

23:34

ways to keep going , to

23:37

not give up .

23:38

They do and , shelley , one of the privileges

23:40

that I have in the role that I

23:42

have been able to do is to provide

23:45

counseling and coaching to

23:48

workers , whether they've been there a long time or

23:50

a short time or just getting ready to go

23:52

, and the ICI training

23:55

has influenced

23:57

my counseling and coaching

24:00

to such a great degree . Really

24:04

, intercultural relationships , such as marriage

24:07

, parenting , finances

24:10

, the structure of the society

24:12

, who leads in the home

24:14

I mean when a worker is

24:16

working outside of their norm

24:19

there are so many levels of

24:21

understanding that they need to

24:23

function and to counsel

24:26

others , and I find

24:28

that to be very true when

24:30

working with someone who's involved

24:32

in an intercultural relationship .

24:36

So interculturally married or

24:39

counseling someone outside

24:42

your home country ? They have a different

24:44

cultural world to you than you .

24:47

Exactly , and I anticipate

24:49

that it's going to impact me even

24:52

to the same or possibly a greater

24:54

degree when we relocate

24:56

, after the first year , back to our home

24:58

country , which is the United States , because

25:01

I don't expect it to be

25:03

the same as it was when we left there 25

25:06

years ago and

25:09

I'm going to probably have some of my

25:11

own culture shock , but

25:13

it is so multicultural

25:16

and intercultural they are

25:18

more so than when I was growing up in this

25:20

little town in the Midwest but

25:23

to be able to apply some things

25:25

that I've learned living

25:27

globally to

25:29

the intercultural relationships that

25:32

we're trying , as a nation and as a country

25:35

, to build , and so I think

25:37

it's applicable no matter where you

25:39

are in your home country or if

25:41

you're living abroad .

25:42

So just with your neighbors , with

25:44

anyone you're interacting

25:46

with . I would really love

25:49

to hear more about the counseling

25:51

piece . So , intercultural

25:54

agility and counseling how

25:57

does it just practically impact

25:59

the way that you

26:01

counsel , knowing that

26:04

the person you're counseling may have

26:06

a very different cultural worldview

26:08

than you do ?

26:10

Does that ? I think it does impact

26:12

counselors . One

26:15

reason is that over time I've just

26:17

created a bit of a deeper conviction

26:20

, I suppose , that my expectations

26:22

of how the counseling is

26:24

going to go , the

26:26

methods that are more productive

26:29

than others and

26:31

sometimes even my desired outcomes

26:33

. Like , if I counsel

26:35

this person to say , restore

26:38

a relationship , what is that going to look

26:41

like ? Well , in my worldview

26:43

I have a picture of what that

26:45

restored relationship is

26:47

going to look like and how they're going to get

26:49

there . But to understand

26:51

that in other cultural worldviews

26:53

forgiveness looks

26:56

different , apologies are

26:58

different , all

27:00

of those things would impact

27:02

a counselor if they've just been

27:04

trained in a certain way

27:07

through the lens of a certain worldview

27:09

.

27:09

Interesting . So

27:11

forgiveness and reconciliation

27:14

are still the goals , but

27:17

the process could

27:19

look very different according to someone's

27:22

cultural worldview .

27:23

Exactly , exactly . I've seen

27:25

it to be true . If you

27:27

come from a direct communication

27:30

culture , you expect words

27:33

to be shared . You did

27:35

this and I expect this

27:37

, and you're going to

27:39

talk about it more openly and

27:41

your expectation of restitution

27:43

is going to be very clear . Someone

27:46

with an indirect culture , possibly even

27:48

an honor shame

27:51

culture , you may not even

27:53

talk about the incident . Yes

27:55

, you may tell a story about something

27:57

else that happened in your community , but it

27:59

actually is communicating

28:01

what you want to say to the individual

28:04

that you've had a conflict with . Yes , and

28:06

so , as a counselor , if you're unaware

28:08

that the communication is

28:11

happening , it

28:13

just sounds and

28:15

looks different than what it is you

28:18

would do in your own culture . Oh

28:20

, that's challenging . It's very challenging

28:22

.

28:23

Yeah , because especially if you've a very Concrete

28:26

way of saying no , it needs to happen this way

28:28

, mm-hmm . So again , it's that humility

28:31

piece , understanding the cultural

28:33

worldviews at play . So that

28:35

could be . Yeah , that's really interesting

28:37

. On the counseling level , yeah , and then just

28:40

you as a counselor , knowing that

28:42

you have a worldview , cultural

28:44

worldview , mm-hmm , that you are counseling

28:46

from , how does that

28:48

and just what are your thoughts on that ? You

28:52

just keep that in mind as you're . I .

28:55

Think for me personally

28:57

, reminding myself to stay

28:59

curious . Oh ask questions

29:02

. Don't jump to conclusions

29:04

or assumptions . Hmm

29:07

, it's

29:10

, you know . I can't say that for all counselors

29:12

.

29:12

Yeah , I just know that for me right

29:15

.

29:16

I just need to Really

29:19

spend the time to develop a

29:21

relationship and build the trust

29:23

with a counseling before I expect

29:25

Any sort of true

29:28

emotion and feeling and to come

29:30

back to me from certain cultures , others

29:33

not so much . Yeah , walk in

29:35

the door and tell you yes

29:38

, more than you want to know .

29:40

You know , but others .

29:41

It takes , takes time , it takes time

29:43

.

29:44

Yeah , we um Nancy

29:46

and I , are attending the intercultural

29:48

agility summit this weekend . Yes

29:50

, yeah , for 2023 . And

29:52

we attended Bart's summit on

29:54

trust and we looked at trust

29:57

from An innocence , guilt , honor

29:59

, shame and power fear perspective . It

30:01

wasn't that fascinating . It's

30:04

very fascinating .

30:06

Trust is something that all cultures don't

30:08

even agree on the definition

30:11

, let alone whether it's present

30:13

or not exactly

30:15

.

30:16

It was so interesting , and even what reconciliation

30:19

looks like In honor shame

30:22

versus innocence guilt . You know , we apologize

30:24

, okay , I'm sorry

30:27

, I'm never gonna do this again . We wrap it up

30:29

, it's done . Yeah , but in honor shame

30:31

, that is not the way it looks or power

30:33

fear , and he kind of went into that in

30:35

the session . So good , so

30:37

interesting . We need to get him on a podcast

30:40

.

30:40

Yes , you do , yes , you do . Intercultural

30:42

marriages , I mean , there's just more and more common

30:45

, and so to have um someone

30:48

like Bart who's really knowledgeable

30:50

about how , helping intercultural

30:53

couples Build strong marriages

30:55

, it's so important .

30:56

Yeah , yeah , again , trust

30:58

. Um , it just seems

31:00

like , again , if you're not aware of world views

31:03

, you just be like , yeah , trust , sure , mm-hmm

31:05

, I got it . I understand , of course , but it's

31:07

, it's really affected .

31:09

It is culture .

31:11

So and , and you see that in counseling-

31:13

yes . Yeah , definitely yeah

31:15

. So if you had

31:18

, I'm just curious , if you had a

31:20

dream for counselors

31:22

and

31:24

you know counselors , intercultural

31:26

counselors what would it be ? I mean

31:28

, if you could wish something

31:30

for counselors who are doing it overseas

31:33

, and what would you wish for

31:35

them ?

31:37

I actually think that

31:39

counselors should be very open

31:41

and even put it on their bucket list

31:43

to do the ICI training . It has

31:46

been so impactful for

31:48

me personally because

31:50

we

31:53

have a lot of resources

31:55

available to us in

31:57

the country where I'm from that

32:00

aren't available in other parts of the

32:02

world . If we can , as

32:04

counselors , learn more

32:06

about doing our counseling interculturally

32:08

, we can actually model that for others

32:11

. In countries where maybe they don't

32:13

have the same access to information

32:16

and training , and

32:18

that we have the blessing of having

32:20

so . True , we do we do

32:22

. That is so true , yes

32:25

and to realize that you just

32:27

can't export your

32:29

training to another country and just expect

32:31

it to be as effective as the

32:33

way you've experienced in your own homeland

32:36

.

32:36

Yeah , yeah , nancy

32:39

, this has been such a good conversation

32:41

.

32:42

Thank you , I always enjoy talking to you about

32:44

this . Me too , I could talk to you a

32:46

long long time about this .

32:49

Um , we just wish you all the best as

32:51

you transition back to

32:54

the us and in your work

32:56

there . So you'll be , doing counseling

32:59

and training workers

33:01

to go overseas . That's

33:03

the plan , exciting

33:05

. Yes , I am excited and the impact

33:07

you'll have on many people .

33:09

Thank you so for having me absolutely

33:11

.

33:12

Thank you for coming in today and we'll

33:14

we'll I'm sure we'll talk to you again

33:16

at some point .

33:17

Thank you so much for joining us for this episode

33:19

of the cultural agility podcast . If

33:22

you enjoyed today's episode , share

33:24

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33:35

always , if any of the topics we

33:37

discuss today intrigue you , you will

33:39

find links to articles discussing

33:42

them in greater depth in the podcast

33:44

notes . If you would like to learn

33:46

more about intercultural intelligence and how

33:48

you can become more culturally agile , you

33:51

can find more information and hundreds

33:53

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33:55

. A special

33:58

thanks to Jason Carter for composing

34:00

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34:02

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34:05

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34:07

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34:09

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34:12

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34:14

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34:16

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