0:00

Hi, everyone. I'm Brené Brown, and this is

0:02

Unlocking Us. So

0:09

before we jump into the podcast today, I

0:11

want to give you a little bit of

0:13

context about kind of what's going on and

0:15

what we're doing. I

0:19

came back from the holiday.

0:23

I took a couple of extra weeks. Many of

0:25

you know that my mom passed away on Christmas

0:27

Day after a long

0:30

and awful dementia journey. And

0:34

I've also been off social for I think

0:36

maybe a year. So I

0:38

came back, got back on social and

0:43

planned to release

0:46

kind of new podcasts with Unlocking Us

0:48

and Dare to Lead this spring. One

0:52

of the things that happened when I got back on social

0:54

is a collision of me wanting to

0:57

address what's happening in Israel and Palestine

0:59

and a call for me to do

1:01

that and a really reasonable call. Because

1:04

I share

1:06

my beliefs and thoughts about these kind

1:08

of issues all the time, both globally and domestically.

1:10

So I think it was a

1:13

really reasonable question about where's

1:15

your voice on this. So

1:17

I wrote a piece and I posted on the

1:19

website and the reactions

1:21

were swift. And

1:24

there were some people that were supportive and

1:26

thank you. And there were a lot of

1:28

people who thought, man,

1:31

this is a huge disappointment. You

1:34

missed a lot of things that you should have

1:36

gotten right here. And

1:38

so I've spent the last this was probably a

1:40

week and a day ago, maybe eight or nine

1:42

days ago, we left comments open for a week.

1:44

I just want to say for the people who

1:46

commented on the website, we did not leave social

1:48

media open. We just did the

1:50

website because we have a new platform on

1:52

the website. The comments were

1:55

smart, exacting, challenging,

1:59

critical. and

2:01

passionate, painful. And

2:03

so I've spent the last eight

2:06

or nine days reading every single

2:08

comment, talking,

2:11

and probably more importantly,

2:13

talking directly with friends

2:15

whose opinions are

2:17

completely different than mine and people who challenge

2:19

me in big ways. And

2:22

a lot of learning, a lot of unlearning,

2:24

and a lot of clarity about what I

2:26

actually do believe and

2:29

what I don't believe. And so I asked

2:33

our new podcast partners at Vox if

2:36

we could hold on the new podcast

2:38

launch and if they would be willing

2:40

to let me do three podcasts on

2:44

these issues, commercial free,

2:46

no monetization, no revenue tied to

2:48

them, and

2:50

they said absolutely, this is

2:53

important, do it. And

2:56

so in addition to a follow-up essay on brenébrown.com,

2:59

I'm releasing three podcasts, one

3:02

today, one tomorrow, and one Friday. And

3:06

I'm going to talk to activists on the ground

3:08

in Israel and Palestine.

3:11

I'm going to talk to Jewish-Israeli

3:15

activists, Palestinian-Israeli

3:17

activists, and I

3:19

had an amazing conversation with

3:22

a Middle East analyst

3:25

who studies Palestine and mostly

3:29

really looks at U.S.

3:31

involvement in not

3:34

only failed attempts at peace

3:36

brokering, but U.S. involvement

3:38

with Israel and Palestine. And so I

3:40

have learned a ton and

3:43

I'm continuing to learn. And

3:46

I want to give you the context of

3:48

what these next three podcasts are going to be like.

3:51

So let me jump in a little

3:53

bit and tell you about the episode today.

3:56

I'm talking to two

3:58

guests, Robbie. Damlin and

4:01

Ali Abu Awad. And let

4:03

me just tell you about

4:05

each of them. So, Robbie was born

4:07

and raised in a progressive family in

4:09

South Africa during apartheid. Her family was

4:12

politically active in the anti-apartheid movement. Her

4:14

uncle defended Nelson Mandela during the 1956

4:17

treason trial. The

4:19

pressure from the South African authorities

4:21

due to Damlin's local opposition to

4:23

apartheid led her to moving to

4:25

Israel in her 20s as a

4:28

volunteer during the Six-Day War

4:30

in June of 1967.

4:33

The war ended soon after she arrived.

4:35

She settled into Kebbutz attending a

4:37

Hebrew program to learn the language. And soon

4:39

after that, she got married and had two

4:41

sons, David and Iran.

4:44

She worked at the Jerusalem Post, then

4:47

with immigrants, and then after her divorce, she

4:49

relocated to Tel Aviv where she ran a

4:51

public relations company. Damlin's

4:54

son David was in the Israeli

4:56

Army reserves and was stationed at the

4:58

Ofra checkpoint. He was killed by a

5:00

Palestinian sniper on the 3rd of March,

5:02

2002 at the age of 28. Robbie

5:07

is the spokesperson and

5:10

director of the International Relations

5:12

for the Parents Circle Family

5:14

Forum. It's a grassroots organization

5:16

made up of hundreds of

5:18

bereaved Israeli and Palestinian families

5:20

working together for reconciliation, to

5:22

end the occupation, and

5:25

for peace. And just

5:27

a disclosure, I think it's

5:29

helpful context how I met Robbie and also

5:31

the, I

5:34

guess, the birthplace of my

5:36

beliefs around peacemaking.

5:38

I met Robbie at

5:41

a Middle East Peace

5:44

Conference in 2007. I

5:47

was asked to facilitate the

5:49

panel with Palestinian and Israeli

5:52

bereaved family members. And

5:55

this is when I was introduced to the work of

5:57

the Parents Circle Family Forum and it

5:59

very much. Informed my ideas,

6:01

And my beliefs about. The.

6:04

Ability to hold

6:06

space for humanity

6:09

across. Polarizing. Ideas

6:11

and how we can hold people

6:13

accountable for and justice. Law.

6:15

The same time not diminishing

6:18

their humanity as mother's son,

6:20

sisters, brothers, And so

6:22

that's Robbie or other gas is

6:24

Ali Abu Awad. I'll

6:26

he was raised. In a politically

6:28

active refugee family is Palestinian.

6:30

As a young child Ali

6:33

witness Israeli agents be and

6:35

humiliate his mother for her

6:37

political activism. She was very

6:39

involved in the Palestinian Liberation

6:41

Organization. Seen his

6:43

mother's subjected to this an. His.

6:46

Daily life under occupation. Sturdy embers

6:48

of resistance within harm and during

6:50

the first Intifada Ali was arrested

6:52

by Israel for his leadership in

6:54

the resistance and for refusing to

6:56

supply information against his mom had

6:58

also been arrested. With. The

7:01

Oslo Accords and Ninety Ninety Three.

7:03

Ali was released and began serving

7:05

in the newly created Palestinian Authority

7:07

Security Forces. But. I'll He

7:09

quickly became disillusioned with the political process.

7:12

Been forced to arrest to sell a

7:14

Palestinians for their continued resistance to Israel,

7:16

despite the T A's ability to guarantee

7:18

the rights of citizenship due to Israel

7:20

ongoing occupation. In two

7:23

thousand and three years after his

7:25

resignation from the Palestinian Authority security

7:27

Force, Ali. Was shot

7:29

by a subtler. While he was changing a tire

7:31

on the West Bank Road. Center.

7:33

Saudi Arabia. For treatment he received

7:35

their the news that would change

7:38

his life forever. And.

7:40

Israeli soldier had murdered his beloved

7:42

brother uses. Shot at

7:44

point blank range at the entrance to

7:46

his home town. In the West Bank.

7:50

It. Was after this loss at Ali's mother. Began

7:52

inviting bereaved Israeli families from the

7:54

parents circle and to their home.

7:58

They believe there had been enough bloodshed. You

8:00

realize there's you want to save her

8:02

other children. And those meetings changed the

8:05

trajectory of Ali's life from two thousand

8:07

and two to two thousand and nine

8:09

Abou A Toured the world as the

8:11

Palestinian spokesperson for the Parents are call

8:14

Bereaved Family Forum and actually you'll see

8:16

and to send in your field. Listen

8:18

in here. I think in this interview

8:21

that a lot of the work she

8:23

did was with Robbie. They shared the

8:25

mutual greta understanding.between Palestinians and Israelis who

8:28

lost people to this conflict. His

8:30

life and work where feature during

8:32

that time During to award winning

8:34

films and Counterpoint in Forbidden Childhood

8:36

and Twenty Sixteen, he had fully

8:39

turned his activism to the priority

8:41

of developing a mass independent movement

8:43

on the ground. Of

8:45

Palestinians organizing. Palestinians to take

8:47

nonviolent responsibility for self development and

8:49

forging. A pass to in the

8:52

occupation, that movement or here. Which

8:54

means change. Is dedicated to

8:56

fostering Palestinian national nonviolent identity and

8:59

action. Three Which communities, leaders and

9:01

organizations come together to address social

9:03

development needs and work to end

9:05

the occupation. As

9:07

an activist, Ali believes that non.

9:10

Is. The only path forward to

9:12

freedom for both Palestinians and Israelis.

9:15

and twenty twenty three. Ali was

9:17

awarded Bossi Indira Gandhi Peace prize

9:19

and the Look Some Bird peace

9:22

prize. I'm gonna jump right into

9:24

the conversation with Robbie and Ali.

9:31

What? An honor. To. Have both of

9:34

you on the podcast And so deeply

9:36

grateful for the work you're doing. I'm.

9:38

So hungry to learn. More.

9:41

About it and hungry to learn. What?

9:44

Support looks like for your vision. So when

9:46

we just start by saying thank you for

9:48

being here. Thank. You

9:50

for inviting us. We. Always

9:53

start the podcast the same way. Which.

9:55

Is. asking our

9:58

gas to tell us their story We

10:01

believe that stories and narratives give power

10:03

to understanding each other. So, Robbie,

10:06

would you like to start and tell us your story?

10:09

Probably everybody will notice within a

10:11

minute that my life started in

10:13

South Africa. But

10:15

I've been in Israel since 1967. I

10:20

think the main part of

10:22

my story is the loss, actually.

10:24

I mean, I could tell you a lot of

10:26

naughty stories along the line. But

10:29

I think when the army

10:31

came to tell me that David had been killed

10:34

by a Palestinian sniper, one

10:36

of the first things that I said was, you

10:39

can't kill anybody in the name

10:41

of my child. So it

10:43

was very clear somewhere along the line

10:45

that I was going to do something,

10:48

something to prevent other mothers

10:50

from experiencing this pain. And

10:52

it didn't matter which mothers,

10:55

Palestinian or Israeli, I

10:57

understood almost immediately that my life

10:59

would take a completely new direction.

11:02

It's your life before and your

11:04

life after. And what do you do with all of

11:06

this pain? And

11:09

for me, sort of almost

11:11

connecting to today, I see my

11:13

behavior after the 7th of October

11:16

is very similar to

11:18

what happened to me after David was killed.

11:20

I had this immediate urge

11:23

or desire or mania almost

11:25

to change the world. And

11:29

so something like three

11:31

months after David was killed,

11:33

I found myself at this

11:35

huge demonstration saying that we had

11:37

to get out of the Arkansas territories. And

11:41

what was so extraordinary, I recognized

11:43

that after loss, there's no

11:45

fear. I have no fear.

11:47

You can actually put me wherever you like. And

11:50

I don't care. I will talk and I'll

11:52

say what's in my heart. So

11:55

what happens is I never prepare anything. And

11:58

after I spoke, it's very important that I understand that. this

12:00

huge demonstration, the parent circle

12:02

found me and invited

12:04

me to come to a weekend in East

12:07

Jerusalem with Palestinian and

12:09

Israeli families who'd all

12:11

lost an immediate family member.

12:14

And I can remember sitting around the table

12:16

and looking into the eyes of

12:19

the Palestinian, particularly the mothers, and

12:21

realizing that we shared the same

12:23

thing. And that was like almost

12:25

the beginning of

12:28

what others were going to be doing,

12:30

because I understood that if we stood

12:32

on the stage and spoke in the

12:34

same voice for reconciliation and non-violence,

12:36

then surely that would be

12:38

an extraordinary example for

12:41

anybody else in the world. And

12:43

that weekend changed my whole life. I closed

12:46

my office. I started to travel all around

12:48

the world, and I thought it was amazingly

12:50

important, and could speak

12:52

English, and I was very pleased with

12:54

myself. I spoke wherever,

12:57

together with the Palestinian partner, wherever

12:59

I was invited. Concerts,

13:02

hip-hop concerts, I

13:04

don't know, congress, all kinds

13:06

of extraordinary places that who would

13:08

have believed. And

13:11

one night when I was home, I was sitting next

13:13

to my computer, and there was a knock on my

13:15

door. And I opened the door,

13:17

and there were three soldiers standing there. And

13:20

when there are three soldiers, that can only mean one

13:22

thing. So I kept slamming the

13:24

door in their face, and they kept knocking. And

13:27

I thought, if I lose another child, that's fair and I

13:29

can't. And then they

13:32

eventually, I opened the door, and they said,

13:34

we came to tell you that we caught the man who

13:36

killed Edward. That's when it became

13:39

difficult, because you can go around the world, and

13:41

you could talk about peace and love, and

13:43

read that poetry as most NGOs

13:46

do. Or, you

13:48

know, what was I to

13:50

do now to remain in some form

13:52

or integrity? And actually, I

13:54

mean, it's connected here to this part

13:56

of my story. I

13:59

was wandering around, for months not

14:01

sleeping. And one morning he said to

14:03

me, we'll write them a letter to the

14:05

parents, which is what I did. And

14:08

in the letter I told him about the parents

14:10

circle. We are now 700

14:12

families. We're all posting in

14:14

and Israelis were lost an immediate family

14:17

member. And I

14:19

told him about

14:21

David, my son. He

14:24

was a student at Tel Aviv

14:26

University studying for his master's in

14:29

the philosophy of education. And

14:31

it was part of the peace movement. And

14:35

he also was part of the student uprising.

14:37

I can't imagine where he got that from.

14:41

And he played the French horn, which

14:43

I deserve a medal for. And

14:46

he was this extraordinarily lovely

14:49

kid who used

14:51

to cook with me and drink with me.

14:53

And we had so much fun together. And

14:57

I told him that I thought we should

14:59

meet because we heard

15:01

that to our children and grandchildren. So

15:04

Ali can probably fill you

15:06

in later on together with Nadwa,

15:09

a Palestinian from our group, delivered

15:12

the letter to the family. You

15:14

can imagine how shocked they were. I immediately,

15:17

not being the most patient character

15:19

in the East, imagine that

15:21

there will be a letter the next day. Well,

15:24

of course, that didn't happen. And

15:26

it took three years. And

15:29

I got this message over a

15:31

website to say that I'm crazy

15:33

and I should stay away from

15:35

his family. And that he

15:37

killed, this is from the sniper, he killed

15:39

10 people to free

15:42

Palestine. But I mean,

15:44

and this is something also

15:46

connected with the war now, is

15:48

I want to talk about understanding

15:50

why people do things. And

15:54

from his parents, I understood that

15:56

when he was a small child, he

15:58

had seen his uncle buy a killed by

16:01

the Israeli army. And he

16:03

lost two uncles in the second uprising.

16:05

And so I think this

16:07

was an act of revenge. And

16:11

so what happened is when I

16:13

got this letter, it was like

16:15

giving up being a victim. I was

16:18

now free. I'm no longer contingent

16:20

on what this man says. And

16:24

I felt I could continue with the

16:26

work. And I went off to South

16:28

Africa. And we made a film, which

16:31

is called One Day After Peace. And, extraordinarily

16:34

so, it's also very

16:36

relevant today. There's a

16:38

soldier called Gilad Shalit. Gilad

16:41

Shalit was a young Israeli soldier

16:43

who was captured

16:46

and picked as a hostage

16:48

in Gaza, ideas. And

16:51

I said then that they

16:53

should free the prisoners, even

16:55

if it would bring Gilad Shalit back and

16:57

certainly to free the man who killed my

17:00

child. Of course, I cannot speak for other

17:02

parents. I can only speak in my own

17:04

voice. And I

17:06

went to the television and I said that

17:08

openly, and you can imagine how popular that

17:11

made me. But I

17:13

thought it was important. And so I

17:15

actually recently in the war now, I

17:17

just wrote an op-ed to

17:19

say, please free this man if that's

17:22

going to bring even one of the

17:24

hostages back. So everything

17:26

is kind of tied up one thing

17:28

to the other. And in South Africa,

17:30

I met this extraordinary woman. Her

17:33

name was June Fari. And she'd lost her

17:36

daughter and she'd gone to

17:38

the Truth and Reconciliation Commission

17:41

and told the people who killed her

17:43

daughter, I forgive you. And

17:46

I wanted to understand what the meaning

17:48

of forgiving is. You know, everywhere I

17:50

talk, everybody I ask, what do you

17:52

mean when you say you forgive? Everybody

17:55

comes up with a different answer. And

17:58

I went to meet June and we

18:00

became sisters immediately which happens with all

18:02

bereaved mothers and

18:04

she said forgiving is giving

18:07

up your just right to revenge

18:10

and then I met the man who actually

18:12

sent the people to kill her daughter and

18:16

he I thought I'm going to meet this

18:18

monster and here comes this man who says

18:20

by her forgiving me she

18:22

released me from my inhumanity

18:25

I thought that was an extraordinary statement

18:27

and I came back to Israel and

18:30

tried to meet the sniper this is

18:32

a long story but the

18:34

law here actually says that he

18:36

has to ask to meet me

18:39

so I've cried via letters and via

18:41

his lawyer but it's not working

18:43

and it's really not all that important for me

18:45

now and that's where the

18:47

story is but there's so much bigger things

18:49

than what we do and then now. Thank

18:52

you for sharing your story with us and

18:56

I hold it very tenderly and with

18:59

a lot of love and a lot of

19:02

grief. Thank you. And hope.

19:05

Hope is the most

19:07

important equation in peace.

19:10

Ali would you be willing to share

19:12

your story with us? Well

19:15

from the human and emotional

19:17

side of my story it's

19:19

not so different than Robby's

19:21

story. We are the

19:23

consequences of this madness. We

19:26

both experience loss. I lost my brother

19:29

in the second in 2000 but all

19:34

of my life was about loss.

19:37

I grew up as a refugee was

19:39

born to a very political family was

19:42

raised by a very political

19:44

mother and we both

19:46

end up in prison in

19:48

1990 serving

19:51

few years and

19:53

the first encounter with non-violence actually

19:56

was in prison. Me

20:00

and my mother decided to go for

20:02

a hunger strike to see each other

20:04

after three years of being in prison.

20:07

And we succeeded. We

20:09

succeeded after 17 days

20:12

of starvation. We

20:15

succeeded to see each other and that

20:18

moment I felt a

20:22

strength that I have never

20:24

experienced before. It

20:27

was not just about our

20:29

success, it was about discovering

20:31

something really powerful inside me.

20:36

But I also discovered the blindness

20:40

of my roots. Because

20:44

all what I felt was true, but

20:47

I was blind to the most

20:49

powerful thing that

20:51

I have never met

20:53

or used before, which is my

20:56

humanity. Anger

20:59

was a blindness for that

21:02

humanity to rise. And

21:05

then I was released by

21:08

Ozlovis Initiative and

21:10

trying to achieve and support

21:12

this process as a

21:15

leader and a son of a leader.

21:19

And the process has failed for many

21:21

reasons. But I

21:23

think the biggest reason that

21:28

politicians were not

21:31

really aiming

21:34

to achieve the vision of the process, because

21:37

the challenges were huge.

21:41

And there was no real

21:45

engagement to practice what

21:47

we sign on papers

21:50

on the ground. There was no difference.

21:52

We couldn't. We, if Alist freedom

22:00

or independence. At

22:03

the same time Israelis still

22:05

live in under threat by

22:08

suicide bombers. So

22:10

the whole process has failed including

22:13

my son, my brother in 2000, Yusuf.

22:16

He was 31 years old and

22:21

he had an argument with a soldier

22:24

in the entrance of my town Beethoven

22:26

near Hebron that cost

22:28

him his life. Then

22:32

I was in a hospital

22:34

in Saudi Arabia having medical treatment

22:36

because I was wounded by a

22:38

settler. My mother was

22:41

with me. I mean

22:44

I experienced loss before but

22:46

losing him was different. I

22:50

was totally broken. Until

22:54

we came back we tried to

22:56

live but this is not

22:58

the same life. These are not the same

23:00

enemies. It's not the same family anymore. Many

23:04

people has offered revenge to

23:06

my mother. She said no

23:10

but she couldn't give any practical

23:13

step for us to do. And

23:17

I think she was seeking for

23:20

the art of the motherhood

23:24

which ends by meeting people like

23:26

Robby and Israeli parents who have

23:28

lost someone. She

23:31

invited them to my home.

23:34

And for me that was the

23:37

other non-violence lesson that I have

23:39

to learn that the devils

23:42

are not exactly devils. They

23:45

are humans. They are

23:47

even victims like me. Yes

23:50

we're not equal by life

23:52

conditions but we're equal by

23:54

this loss

23:57

that we're sharing. We're

23:59

not The able to share what is

24:01

on the ground. That's why we're sharing

24:04

just what is underground to to somebody

24:06

of our he lost once. My.

24:09

Life has changed. I.

24:12

Mean I have never had an

24:14

opportunity to go to university or

24:16

land given my into escapes from

24:18

prison. I. Didn't waste time

24:20

there. And a good

24:22

part of it came from roby because

24:25

ice tour the war with role before

24:27

few years. And.

24:29

I have learned a lot. From.

24:31

Have from others and from

24:34

my mother. My sons. And.

24:37

They end up joining the parents are

24:39

still with my mother with my family.

24:43

Then I went back to my people.

24:45

who's. Struggling. Glancing.

24:49

Teasing initiative with Israeli settlers.

24:52

Called. Ruth's. They

24:54

remember there was kind that Rob even

24:57

said we have to speak to suck

24:59

less because the current certain was very

25:01

clear. Fun! By

25:04

and criticism, you know? When

25:07

I launched this initiative then I use

25:09

few years ago. I. Went back

25:11

to my people's. And

25:14

I said okay. Every

25:16

side has to take responsibility for

25:19

their own acts. And

25:21

towards the others. I

25:23

created that he is an

25:26

unabridged change and English. As

25:29

a Palestinian nonviolence movement that

25:31

has hundred percent the and

25:33

a pot Palestinian. For

25:36

my people to adopt nonviolence as

25:38

an identity. And.

25:41

To deal with the confusion between

25:43

the two identities that we struggle

25:45

with. A D

25:47

as policy get the identity

25:50

of being part of revolution

25:52

against Israel and the identity

25:55

of being citizens. Without.

25:57

The states. So. how can

25:59

we practice, how

26:02

can we build our society

26:04

without independence, but also how

26:07

can we resist the occupation without

26:09

causing anyone a price of his

26:11

life or his dignity? This

26:14

is all what the real is about,

26:16

that the answer is just by nonviolence.

26:19

And I think nonviolence

26:22

activism for many people

26:24

sounds silly, sounds weakness.

26:27

And I do believe that if

26:29

the war needs anger, peace

26:32

needs courage. Reconciliation

26:36

needs truth. We

26:38

have to be truthful to ourselves and

26:40

to the others. And

26:43

today I envision a place where

26:46

these two conflicted identities

26:49

can fit in

26:51

a political model that

26:53

each truth of them will

26:56

be practiced in a fashion that

26:58

will not come at the expense of anyone. And

27:02

we can do that. Thank

27:04

you. I can't

27:06

stop thinking about David

27:09

and Yousif's life

27:11

before they were gone and life after they

27:14

were gone. Different

27:20

lives. It

27:22

seems to me that there's that

27:25

courage, Ali, that you talk about that's

27:28

necessary for peace is

27:32

so often born of grief and despair.

27:36

Is it a choice where

27:39

the grief and despair is going to go? And

27:44

does the level of your compassion

27:46

require an experience of grief?

27:51

Well, I really

27:53

hope not. Yeah,

27:55

me too. How Many people

27:57

will have to die, Ben, for people to die?

28:00

The Thing in a month away. From.

28:02

Home. I think I'm

28:05

the same person as I was before

28:07

desert was killed. Only I'm

28:09

not the dictator that I was.

28:11

I'm I'm more compassionate. And.

28:15

I. Think it was a choice in wasn't

28:17

even a conscious choice because if I

28:19

say to come to anybody in and

28:21

out less traveled. I wasn't looking for

28:23

any kind of hussein. And

28:26

I keep thinking about the rangers

28:28

to worn out. Of.

28:30

That humiliation northeast is mainly on

28:33

the. You. Know have been

28:35

beaten on the season for to emperor.

28:38

Work that humiliation creates.

28:41

More games. And. I

28:43

do have that because it's I

28:45

had that since it was ange

28:47

Block. They are parents and decide

28:49

who joined briefly children when they

28:51

die. Love Sushi to the Take

28:53

disappeared. Get. Our current

28:55

set to libraries monuments

28:57

I think isn't puddings

28:59

do. The. Thing that would

29:02

give been some scientists. And

29:04

for me because desert was. So.

29:07

Into education For me it

29:09

occasionally of peace seem to

29:11

be for most logical thing.

29:15

I'm gonna. you know it's It's very

29:17

difficult. I. We had a meeting the

29:19

other. Night out. This is not all

29:22

together. Connected with Forty Said that. From

29:25

the women. From. Our

29:27

group said look in August being

29:29

so much they smell on both

29:31

sides and is the case that

29:34

we experienced as important to i

29:36

have the right now. Yes,

29:39

it's of very interesting. I was

29:41

so shocked. Now do

29:43

I have the right now. To.

29:45

Go to these people and I know

29:48

for sure. That. The people

29:50

gave me the last saw the slow,

29:52

the brief mother's well understood. But

29:55

this also. fear you know and

29:57

and i was so couldn't

30:00

believe that they were willing to negate

30:02

a loss in order

30:04

to feel that they were doing the

30:06

right thing. And

30:08

if it happened 50 years ago, if

30:11

it's still not there, I think it is.

30:14

You know, your life changed forever. And

30:17

it's generations of suffering.

30:20

I watch my grandchildren, you

30:22

know, they are so involved with David,

30:26

Mia, sang songs

30:28

about David. You can't

30:30

run away from it. And even if it happened

30:32

20 years ago, it's

30:35

as painful, except you learn to live

30:37

with it next to you. And

30:39

what do you do with that pain? You

30:42

know, and... Sorry,

30:47

got carried away. Yeah,

30:50

I mean, I will add to what Robi

30:52

just said. My

30:55

activism is not depends

30:57

on the label of

30:59

bereavement. Because

31:02

beyond bereavement, there is a

31:04

huge machine inside me that's

31:06

called humanity. On

31:10

the other hand, I don't think

31:12

neither me or Robi or

31:14

anyone else in

31:16

the parent circle or other bereaved

31:18

parents who are joining

31:21

the reconciliation process

31:24

has healed their pain by

31:26

joining such initiative. I

31:29

think it's the opposite. But

31:31

then you know, if it's extraordinary, Ali, I

31:34

can tell you that now people

31:37

who experienced terrible, terrible

31:39

things on the sense of

31:41

October, like Maor Zhi

31:43

Nang, whose family were burnt to death,

31:45

his parents were burnt to death, on

31:48

the sense of October, are speaking out for

31:51

peace and speaking out to stop the bloodshed.

31:54

And the son of Vivian Silva,

31:56

who was this wonderful activist, who

31:58

I was sure was... hostage

32:00

and would come back and she

32:02

would lead a peace movement. Her

32:05

son has joined the parent circle now as well

32:07

as my wife and many others.

32:10

And that's an extraordinary thing because this

32:12

is like four months, you know, it's

32:15

not yours. And

32:17

that gives me such hope to

32:19

see these people who can be

32:21

the leaders in the

32:23

future of this organization. We

32:26

can't help old bads like me only.

32:28

We need to have new

32:31

people who will take

32:33

this organization in

32:35

other directions. And

32:38

it's so extraordinary that they're speaking out so

32:40

quickly. So that gives

32:42

me an immense amount of hope. The Bedouin

32:44

community gave me a lot of hope. We

32:47

spoke about hope being this important

32:50

equation. You know, the

32:52

Bedouins from an unrecognized village came

32:54

to the music festival and saved hundreds

32:57

of kids and 19 of them were

32:59

killed. And

33:01

some of them were taken hostage. Just

33:04

think about that. They didn't

33:06

have a stake in this whole madness.

33:09

So there are extraordinary people everywhere. And

33:11

that's what brings me to continue to

33:13

get up in the morning to do

33:16

this work. Yeah,

33:18

yeah. The point is, I

33:21

used to say that my life was

33:23

quite easier when

33:26

I was one sided. I live with

33:28

my story,

33:32

with my loss. I

33:34

used to have my people on my

33:36

shoulder and my brother on my heart.

33:39

But after I joined the

33:43

parent circle before

33:45

I had another nation

33:47

on the other shoulder and

33:49

I had another stories of my enemies

33:52

who was supposed to be my enemies. And

33:56

this is where responsibility starts. And

33:59

I always have said, and I keep saying

34:02

to be a change maker you

34:04

don't need to be either bereaved

34:06

or to be Mandela. You just

34:09

need to be a responsible leader

34:11

who think about

34:13

the future because one of the

34:15

things that we suffer from, we

34:18

do have politicians but we don't have leaders.

34:22

Politicians are just managers of this

34:24

reality. We are

34:26

just managers who envision the normal

34:28

future and change reality for that

34:32

and this is what we need. And

34:35

we need the storytellers. I

34:37

am a great believer in storytelling.

34:40

I've seen how that creates an

34:42

emotional breakthrough in even the

34:44

hardest of hearts. So it

34:46

goes together and I've

34:49

been telling a story. I forgot all

34:51

about this and suddenly I remembered Ali

34:54

about the jacket. Do you still

34:56

have it? I

34:58

do have. So you

35:00

will tell the story. We

35:03

were invited to a very important

35:05

event and I don't have a

35:07

jacket and I don't like

35:10

to have jackets but

35:12

Robby came up with

35:14

this jacket, this beautiful jacket and

35:16

she said this jacket used

35:19

to be for David and

35:21

I want you to have it. It

35:26

was hard. It was hard because

35:28

I know what does it mean to let go, for

35:31

Robby to let go but

35:34

it was so strong. On

35:37

the other hand, how

35:39

the world is so, so

35:42

weird. This

35:44

man who used to be a soldier serving

35:48

a system that he struggled also

35:50

against it at the same time

35:53

but he do his duty and

35:56

now there is a Palestinian wearing his jacket.

36:02

What explanation on Earth

36:04

can describe that? There

36:07

is no description. But

36:09

this kind of a rest of the story

36:11

when you came to the checkpoint and the soldier

36:14

asked you, do you remember that? I

36:17

asked you where you were going and

36:19

you told him. And you thought it was

36:21

that. Yeah,

36:23

I have many stories,

36:26

especially with soldiers,

36:29

because I like to speak to soldiers. And

36:34

I tell the stories. I tell the stories of

36:36

others, not just Palestinians,

36:39

Jews and others. And

36:42

yeah, I mean, the

36:45

power of these stories, that

36:49

you see the humanity of the other who

36:51

is trying to

36:53

blind himself to

36:56

see your humanity. I always

36:58

said, my weapon

37:00

in nonviolence is not my humanity.

37:03

It's the Jewish humanity. This is my

37:05

weapon. But

37:07

for me to succeed, I

37:09

have to do the reflection. So

37:11

nonviolence is not just to show

37:13

how human you are, but

37:15

to be able to see the humanity of

37:18

the other. This is nonviolence. That's

37:20

hard. Yeah. Everyone's

37:24

pretty clear on their own

37:26

humanity. Yeah, well. Yeah,

37:28

everyone's really clear on the depth of their

37:30

own humanity. But

37:33

it seems to me, and I

37:35

would love to get

37:37

checked on this by both of you. Can

37:40

I read something, Ollie, that you said recently? Yes. You

37:44

were in an interview

37:46

with Amidar. And you said,

37:49

we need recognition. We need

37:52

to see each other. I mean, we

37:54

should stop arguing each other's identities. And

37:57

switch to an argument about behavior.

38:00

because occupation is

38:03

a behavior, violence is a behavior.

38:06

So if we feel secure enough

38:08

to change, to see and recognize

38:10

identities, we'll be able to change these

38:12

behaviors that causes this ignorance of

38:14

ignoring each other's identities. This

38:16

is a fundamental need and

38:19

foundation for a peace process. Like

38:23

everyone's so clear to me,

38:27

even here in the US, the

38:30

activism has a very certain narrative.

38:34

Everyone's clear on their own humanity and

38:37

believes their activism depends on diminishing

38:40

the humanity of others. That's

38:42

what's happening here. Well,

38:44

but that's terrifying. I've been to

38:47

the States twice since the war

38:49

began and listened

38:51

to what's happening on the

38:53

campuses all around America

38:56

and we were invited by

38:58

the World Bank. Now I thought to myself, the

39:00

World Bank has to invite me because

39:03

they're not talking to each other. They

39:06

are taking sides. The

39:08

importation of this conflict is

39:11

so dangerous. It's creating hatred

39:13

between Muslims and Jews. It's

39:16

creating madness. What

39:18

has some Jewish kids studying

39:20

at Georgetown University got

39:22

to do with the decisions of Netanyahu and

39:25

his band of hope and glory? And

39:27

so this excuse that's being used, when

39:30

we were at Georgetown now, there's been

39:32

our mentors for many years. They

39:35

are working with us on a

39:37

module of dialogue meetings which

39:40

will be sent to all the campuses

39:42

all over America with questions and answers

39:44

because I tell you, we're in eight

39:46

thousands and thousands of people are turning

39:49

to us because they need some help.

39:52

And so this is a way to

39:54

do it and thanks to Georgetown University

39:56

and to the Teachers Union who will

39:58

distribute the module. online, something

40:01

we can get to a much larger audience.

40:05

I couldn't believe when

40:07

I was in London what was happening. You

40:10

know, I have family in London and I have a

40:12

little cousin, she's 13, and

40:15

she wears a Star of David insider

40:17

shirt, which already tells you something. And

40:19

then he walked on the train and it came

40:21

out of her shirt and a guy came

40:24

up to her and said, I'm going to die and blooded you. This

40:26

is how the importation of our conflict

40:29

is affecting the rest of the world. It's

40:31

mad. If you can't be

40:34

part of the solution, then please leave

40:36

us alone. Ali,

40:38

tell me about when Robbie says if you can't

40:40

be part of the solution, one of

40:42

the things that really like has moved

40:44

me so deeply about Tahir is pro-solution,

40:49

pro-focus on behaviors. Like it seems

40:51

to me that you're the most pragmatic,

40:55

peacemaker that I've

40:57

ever read. Like it is not

40:59

rainbows and unicorns in your world.

41:02

Yeah, listen, everyone speak many

41:04

peace activists and organization. Even

41:06

politicians speak about two states

41:08

solution and speak about peaceful

41:10

agreement and trying to

41:13

engage the world to put Russia on those or

41:15

those. But for me, any

41:18

peace efforts will not be successful

41:21

if we don't create the environment for

41:23

the agreement to happen. We

41:25

need that environment and those who will

41:28

create that environment are not the politician.

41:31

It's the grassroots. It's people like

41:33

me and Robbie and many others, because

41:35

when the environment is ready, politicians,

41:38

believe me, will jump before us

41:40

to sign the agreement because

41:42

they are not courageous as the grassroots

41:45

leaders. Can

41:47

you, Ali, paint a

41:49

picture for me about two

41:52

or three qualities this environment

41:54

must have, this grassroots environment?

41:56

What are two or three of the

41:58

foundational pre-work? requisites

42:00

for this environment of

42:02

non-violence and peace? Well,

42:07

first of all, is to

42:09

believe that non-violence is the

42:11

only solution. To

42:13

create that belief, as

42:15

Robbie said, we need education. Education

42:18

is so important for people to

42:20

understand what non-violence is about. Because

42:22

I'm not sure that many people

42:25

understand what non-violence is. People

42:27

think it's silly, it's weakness, it's giving up,

42:30

it's, you know, but it's

42:32

the opposite. It's the art of our

42:34

humanity. It's hard. Because

42:36

everyone's a human, but I'm not

42:38

sure that everyone is practicing that

42:40

humanity. That's the issue. Number

42:43

two, the environment is about

42:45

creating alternative systems to

42:47

the system that we are trying to change. If

42:50

anger, violence is the answer, it

42:53

creates damage. So what are the

42:55

alternatives that we produce and we

42:58

apply to people? And

43:01

don't forget that we're not equal.

43:04

I mean, it's not about

43:06

healing. It's not about transforming

43:08

people's heart and mind. People

43:10

also need breads on their

43:12

table. People need water resources.

43:14

People need access to resources.

43:17

People need the freedom of

43:19

movement. People need security. People

43:21

need to heal this huge

43:23

thing that is endless. So

43:26

what alternative we change maker

43:29

are offering our communities? You

43:32

know, people ask me sometimes what

43:34

I do. I always say I

43:36

collect garbage of politicians because

43:39

they produce garbage on communities

43:41

and we change makers has

43:43

to collect that garbage. And

43:46

believe me, Jews

43:48

and Palestinians are

43:50

the most human people on earth.

43:53

There is enough humanity for nonviolence

43:55

to work, but

43:57

it cannot be just through dialogue.

44:00

and hummus and hugs. We

44:02

need practical steps on

44:04

the ground for people to believe

44:06

that nonviolence can be the answer.

44:08

It's not about good intention. It's

44:11

not even just about hope. We need

44:13

hope definitely. But it's more

44:15

about the belief, the ideology

44:17

of change. This is where

44:19

we need to be. The

44:22

minute that Palestinian will stop acting

44:25

as victim, the same like

44:27

Jewish people here, the minute

44:29

that the whole Earth will support us,

44:32

both of us, and the

44:34

minute that we stop investing our pain

44:36

and victimhood in

44:39

one side actions, the

44:42

minute that both sides will be able

44:44

to go forward. Robi

44:47

said once, it's the competition of

44:49

suffering. We are

44:51

competing over suffering. Who

44:54

suffers more? By the end of

44:56

the day, we are all suffering. And the world is

44:59

very good players on that, because

45:01

the world is creating more divide.

45:04

And it needs us to go

45:07

all over the world

45:09

to explain that stop, stop,

45:12

be pro-solution, because whomever

45:15

you are supporting, he's not

45:17

taking over the other side. Jews

45:20

and Muslims, Christian, Palestinian,

45:22

Arabs, are not going to

45:24

disappear. It's a fact. So

45:26

how do you manage it? How do

45:29

we envision solutions? How do we

45:31

stop talking about the

45:33

typical solution for two states,

45:35

one state, and jump to

45:38

practical solution that will allow

45:40

everyone to practice their identity

45:42

without causing the other a

45:44

price of their dignity and

45:46

their identity? That's a big

45:48

question. But

45:50

I will say that you need to prepare

45:53

people for reconciliation,

45:57

because it's very Important. Why Did the

45:59

Oslo agreement? Why was the

46:01

say It it was political agreement

46:03

without thinking about the people on

46:05

the ground. Where. They prepared

46:07

for anything like this. Do they

46:10

know what's of a framework for

46:12

reconciliation process should look like study

46:14

Anybody is a tool in new

46:16

the such a thing as reconciliation

46:18

and so what We wanted to

46:20

play like nice and from the

46:22

ground to know who have Korea

46:24

situation. To create this framework for

46:26

a reconciliation closest to be an

46:29

integral part. Of any

46:31

political future agreement because without

46:33

that. Or. You can

46:35

expect? Isn't there another cease

46:37

fire? Until the next time

46:39

and for a combination of

46:41

nonviolence but also of people

46:43

under scandal murky were has

46:46

to be discourses of reconciliation.

46:48

Because without that. Will.

46:50

Have a ceasefire may be. Which.

46:53

Is good. I mean Island has a

46:55

cease fire. They don't really have peace.

46:57

I'd like to have bases flyers. Well,

47:00

So. It's a combination of

47:03

both attitudes. And it's

47:05

and knowing the dignity of the other,

47:07

you know? The. Night

47:09

before I went to America I

47:11

had assume. The with

47:13

many of them women the Palestinian women from

47:16

that they own circle on the really interested

47:18

in when I'm coming to the table. And.

47:22

I asked him to tell me what

47:24

they daily life is like. Notably spent

47:26

because people are not looking at the

47:28

we spent, they don't realize what's going

47:31

on. This that's a cauldron just waiting

47:33

to blow up. And each

47:35

has been told me that they weren't. They

47:38

did. They children were stuck at home,

47:40

their husbands couldn't go to work, so

47:42

these of course domestic violence. Why?

47:45

Wouldn't it be? And I promised

47:47

in that wherever I went in

47:49

America I would talk about the

47:51

West Bank and was nice. That.

47:53

They are leading and people must know

47:55

that. people know some

47:57

know and understand what the city

48:00

are doing, and how

48:02

dangerous that is, and how we've

48:04

got to find a way. We've

48:06

got to find a way to talk,

48:09

yes, Ali, I agree. We must talk

48:11

to the settlers. One

48:14

of the things, Ali, that I recently

48:16

really learned from you that just, it

48:20

was about normalization, Israeli normalization, you

48:22

know, normalization of Israeli relationships

48:26

with Saudi Arabia, other

48:28

countries. And you

48:30

spoke so powerfully and just,

48:33

I felt so schooled by the

48:35

time you were done about real

48:38

normalization will never

48:41

happen in the context of

48:44

occupation. That the

48:46

gateway to real normalization is

48:50

Palestinian and Israeli peace. If

48:52

you do that work, it sounds like things

48:55

will fall away and

48:57

make roads to normalization in many ways.

48:59

Is that a fair assessment of what

49:01

I learned? Well,

49:04

this is part of it. I mean, if

49:07

I think as a responsible

49:11

community leader, I will say the following.

49:14

Israel can have

49:16

any effort or do successful

49:18

steps toward

49:20

normalizations with the Arabs,

49:23

denying the Palestinian files.

49:26

But this bomb will blow up

49:29

in any event, on any table,

49:31

in every way. That's number one.

49:34

Israel can successfully make

49:36

normalization with Arab governments,

49:39

but it will not succeed to

49:41

make normalization with Arabs. With the

49:43

people. That's number two.

49:45

Yeah. And this is not the normalization

49:48

that I am aiming to. Number

49:50

three. I think we

49:53

are the best gate for Israel to

49:55

the Arab world. The Palestinian. Any

49:58

normalization effort has been made. to

50:00

pass through the Palestinian

50:02

normal life toward Arabs,

50:05

because no Arabs

50:07

will dare to have

50:10

a serious, deep

50:12

normalization process with Israel as

50:14

long as Israel is laying

50:17

on the Palestinian in West

50:19

Bank and Gaza. Finally,

50:22

I want to be a part

50:25

of a dignified solution. This

50:29

normalization is without dignity,

50:32

because we live without

50:34

dignity, and we are the key to

50:37

the Middle East peace. The

50:39

Palestinian fight and the Jewish

50:41

security as well, not just

50:43

the Palestinian freedom. And

50:46

I can understand the deep need

50:48

for security for Jewish people and

50:50

Israelis here. But I

50:52

do believe that the

50:55

only security for Israeli future

50:57

is the Palestinian freedom, as

51:00

I do believe that the Palestinians' freedom

51:03

will not be built on

51:06

Jewish graves. It will be

51:08

built through Jewish hearts. And

51:11

that's why this is the dignified freedom

51:13

that I want. Because

51:17

we're sitting here talking

51:19

to one another, catastrophic

51:21

violence is being perpetrated against Palestinians. I

51:24

mean, like, I woke up this morning

51:26

and just the

51:28

news, the images. What

51:31

would you

51:33

tell me, other

51:35

people here in the US, people listening to

51:38

the podcast, what

51:40

would you tell us is

51:44

the most helpful thing we can do?

51:48

I'm writing to everyone

51:51

that will listen about not just a ceasefire, and

51:53

I learned this too from ULE, a ceasefire is

51:55

not enough, a ceasefire is not

51:57

enough. I'm

52:00

calling, what

52:02

can we do that's helpful and what

52:05

are we doing that's absolutely not helpful?

52:08

I think you're importing our content and

52:11

instead of that, you might ask your

52:13

government to raise the monies,

52:17

these huge amount of sums

52:19

of money in all peace

52:21

movements as well, the percentage

52:23

that is invested is so small

52:25

that it's not a role and

52:28

without the peacemakers, this

52:30

place will just be shared by two graves

52:34

and stop taking the sides

52:36

to create, don't stop saying

52:39

what is happening. It's very

52:41

important that people know that

52:43

there are people living in camps in the

52:45

south of Gaza, in this terrible river and

52:48

that there are mothers who are away with their

52:50

children and you know, one of the most poignant

52:53

pictures that I saw were

52:55

of Palestinian kids holding on

52:57

to their cats and that

53:00

nearly broke my heart, you know, it's

53:02

just and this one little

53:04

boy who stood on, I saw a clip

53:06

and he said, I can't

53:09

go away unless you let me

53:11

take my cat to the south

53:13

and he paid, I don't know, 60

53:15

shekels or something, it's family, so

53:18

that he could take his cat. Think

53:20

about the mothers and children in Gaza

53:22

and think about why. Do you

53:25

remember when I said right in the

53:27

beginning, why? Why do people do these

53:29

things? Why if you

53:31

were a kid growing up in Gaza

53:34

and every two years there's a war and

53:37

you have no shelter and you

53:39

are bombed and you have no way

53:41

to run and you have no

53:44

freedom of movement and no hope. What

53:46

kind of an adult are you going to become? And

53:49

then I look at the

53:51

kids on the kibbutz who thought they were

53:53

invincible. Because the rockets,

53:55

I mean there were thousands of rockets, okay,

53:58

but they had safe rooms. unlike

54:00

the Palestinian mothers and their kids.

54:03

And now, suddenly after the attack

54:05

on the 7th of October, they

54:08

are in trauma. The

54:11

whole two nations are in a trauma. And

54:14

then I think about the kids that live

54:16

in Stuart and Ashbalan and Ashbod on the

54:18

border of Gaza. Those

54:21

kids have been bombarded with rockets since they were

54:23

small children. They're waiting their beds at the age

54:25

of 12. So

54:27

what can adults or they going to

54:29

be? So the work of Ali and

54:31

Robbie is cut out. There is so

54:33

much to be done to

54:36

heal this whole, these two nations.

54:39

And I will do anything that I can to

54:42

be with the families in the South

54:44

now and the people in the West

54:46

Bank of lost children too. And

54:48

also many of them have families in

54:51

Gaza who have been wiped out. And

54:54

so, you know, what are we doing?

54:56

How many more people have to die? You

54:58

know, in the morning when I hear the

55:00

announcements from

55:02

the army about the soldiers that are killed, I'm

55:05

not going to stop for what? And

55:07

I see these tiny little square

55:09

pictures of beautiful kids. What

55:12

the hell are they doing there? What

55:14

is the end of this madness? How

55:16

many more people need to die? How

55:19

many more? When are the hostages ever

55:21

going to come home? So who

55:23

are we going to talk to? It's just the people

55:25

we like? No,

55:29

it's got to end. This

55:31

is mad. I

55:33

can't bear it. I tell you when I see

55:36

those pictures and all these people have become just

55:39

numbers. All the people

55:41

in Gaza are numbers, but the people

55:43

in Israel are also numbers. All these people

55:45

who were killed. For what?

55:50

What is the end goal? Nobody

55:54

knows, but one can just

55:56

hope that people will start

55:58

to understand. that

56:01

the Palestinians deserve the dignity

56:03

that they deserve, and

56:06

the Israelis that heart. I

56:08

like the idea about the Jewish heart

56:10

and the Palestinian heart because

56:12

I think it's the same heart. Aali,

56:15

you said in a in the same interview

56:17

with Amidar, you said, I

56:19

believe in one God and that God made

56:22

both of us, the Israelis and the Palestinians.

56:25

Sounds very much what Ravi

56:27

is saying right now.

56:30

Yeah, I mean, listen,

56:33

my call on everyone. And

56:37

then just to stand for a solution, but even

56:40

to work for it. What

56:42

is happening in Gaza has to stop

56:44

immediately. Immediately.

56:47

When Israel says we need to take

56:49

over Hamas, we need to finish Hamas,

56:51

it seems like the rest of the

56:53

Palestinians are. You can't give an idea.

56:55

Yeah. Yeah. You can't. Yeah. OK,

56:57

so what does that look like? So

57:00

it seems like the rest, if you

57:02

take over Hamas, the rest are mandelas.

57:04

No. As

57:06

Hamas was created, there will be

57:08

hundreds and others. Why

57:11

we deal with the leaves leaving

57:14

the roots of the problem? On

57:17

the other hand, if we,

57:19

Palestinian, create threats on Israel,

57:22

we're just pushing them to be

57:24

more aggressive and more, you know,

57:26

fearful. And I have

57:28

I have always said that my

57:30

real and biggest enemies are not

57:32

the Jewish people. It's their fear.

57:36

And this fear can be overcome

57:39

by Jews themselves. But also we,

57:42

Palestinian, has an important role for

57:44

that. We didn't

57:46

create all the disasters on Jewish

57:48

people, but we are not able

57:51

to deal with any disaster because everything

57:54

is a disaster around us. So

57:56

what is the world expecting that

57:58

will happen in Gaza? in a

58:01

few days, few months, few years, nothing

58:03

will happen. It's just more broken,

58:06

harsh and angry people.

58:09

That's all. And this is gonna be

58:11

the only consequences of this continue. So

58:14

my call on everyone to

58:17

stop this madness and to focus

58:19

in this sea's conflict. We need

58:22

a solution. I will not say find a

58:24

solution because I have learned. Even that I

58:26

have learned. What does that mean? We

58:29

need a final agreement.

58:31

We need something to be

58:33

committed to. Because where

58:36

we can commit ourselves, what we

58:38

can commit ourselves to, what

58:41

are we calling people to

58:43

do after tomorrow? What

58:45

kind of election that Israel will

58:48

have? What kind of system and

58:50

leadership that we will have as

58:52

Palestinians? Is it Hamas

58:54

gonna rule everyone or win

58:57

the election because Hamas was

58:59

the language to prove that

59:01

Israel is, the only language

59:03

that Israel understand is force

59:06

and violence? Is

59:08

it BB who will succeed

59:11

after destroying millions life in

59:13

Gaza to release bodies of

59:15

Israelis that I hope not? So

59:19

what are they aiming for? So

59:22

I believe that we need the world

59:24

to invest in the process for

59:26

the solution and not to wait

59:28

for the agreement to be signed.

59:31

Just to start doing even small steps

59:33

on the ground to create hope and

59:35

to create commitment. Number

59:37

two, we need international conference

59:39

that all the representatives, all

59:41

the parts of the problem

59:44

will be not just a

59:46

normalization with Emirates. I want

59:48

normalization with the Palestinians as

59:50

well. Because I want my

59:52

relation with my Israeli neighbors

59:54

to be normal. We

59:56

want a dignified peace that we're not

59:58

ashamed of. because many

1:00:00

activists are hesitating today to

1:00:03

speak to their Israeli partners

1:00:05

as well, or to represent

1:00:08

with them in a

1:00:10

public, because they are afraid of

1:00:12

criticism. You are traitors, you are

1:00:15

normalizers. No, we want something that

1:00:17

people can identify with with dignity.

1:00:20

So all of that will not happen if

1:00:22

we are the people who are here on

1:00:24

the ground, will not take the lead. That's

1:00:27

it. So that's why. If you

1:00:29

are a pro-Palestine, secure Jewish life,

1:00:31

if you are a pro-Israel, free

1:00:33

Palestinian life, this is how do

1:00:35

I see it. I don't see

1:00:37

it any different. I'm

1:00:40

going to get super practical, and people don't talk

1:00:42

about this a lot, but I just feel compelled

1:00:44

to ask, is it helpful

1:00:47

to financially support peacemakers,

1:00:52

or peacemaking organizations where Palestinians

1:00:55

and Israelis are working together,

1:00:57

like the Parent Circle Family

1:00:59

Forum, like Stand Together,

1:01:02

Tahir, is that, I

1:01:04

mean, we just have all kinds of

1:01:06

financial machinery to support war. Do

1:01:10

peacemakers have funded systems to

1:01:13

wage peace? We

1:01:16

have to. I mean, I'm asking,

1:01:18

do you need money to build the systems

1:01:20

to wage peace? Yes? Can you imagine how

1:01:22

many more people we could get to,

1:01:25

how much more work we could

1:01:27

be doing on the ground, how much

1:01:30

more we could

1:01:32

create movies, we could create so many

1:01:34

things that would change people's

1:01:37

idea of who's on the other side.

1:01:39

What is the problem? We don't know each

1:01:41

other. Do you know that when

1:01:43

you go into a school, by the way, we've been

1:01:45

banned from the schools by the strumming government,

1:01:48

but when you go into schools, a

1:01:51

Palestinian and an Israeli talking about

1:01:54

their loss and their transformation to

1:01:56

a 17-year-old kid, and you will

1:01:58

ask the classroom who have you

1:02:00

ever met a Palestinian, it will

1:02:02

actually be nobody. And who

1:02:04

speaks Arabic? Nobody. And who's

1:02:07

been overseas? The whole class. So

1:02:09

what do you expect? There's a total cut-off which

1:02:12

creates fear, which creates hatred. And

1:02:14

the women's group in the Perron circle does

1:02:16

a lot of work in the West Bank

1:02:19

going to houses. When I go into a

1:02:21

house with a Palestinian person, they

1:02:24

look at me in the beginning quite

1:02:26

suspiciously. But once I've told my story, and

1:02:28

once they've refugees.

1:02:37

Why would they think I'm any different? So

1:02:40

it's breaking through this whole madness

1:02:43

so that we begin to know each other

1:02:45

and respect each other, and we don't

1:02:47

have to love each other. It's a

1:02:49

side benefit, but we have to respect each

1:02:51

other. Yeah,

1:02:53

we do need a lot of money. But

1:02:56

even more than that, more

1:02:58

than that, we need a

1:03:01

plan. And we need a coalition.

1:03:03

Recently, I started working in creating

1:03:05

a coalition of organizations. We

1:03:08

need also the world, especially the US

1:03:10

government, to deal

1:03:12

with this issue of competition

1:03:14

for resources between organizations. Because

1:03:17

the way they do it, they

1:03:19

create so much competition over

1:03:21

the resources. We need

1:03:24

more partnership with the US government,

1:03:26

with the US people, in

1:03:28

a coalition that will apply to

1:03:30

people's needs, not just to people's

1:03:32

feelings. We need the

1:03:34

Arabs to invest there. We need Arab

1:03:36

money because I'm so proud

1:03:39

sometimes when I bring Palestinian donors.

1:03:41

It makes me so proud. This

1:03:44

has to be part of what Israel

1:03:46

and the PA are initiating to the

1:03:48

Arabs. That as a support of

1:03:51

the grassroots efforts, we need that.

1:03:53

We need also partnership with the

1:03:55

political system. Because if

1:03:58

the grassroots and the political system... system

1:04:00

will work towards one vision,

1:04:03

it can be achievable. But for

1:04:05

this to happen, we need the

1:04:07

US pressure, we need the European

1:04:10

pressure on both governments and both

1:04:12

political leaders. So we need

1:04:14

a lot. And this

1:04:16

is the time for us

1:04:19

also to leave the typical

1:04:21

activism and to think strategically

1:04:23

about new strategic

1:04:26

activism that will unite all of

1:04:28

us, that will remove the competition

1:04:30

and that will allow also trust

1:04:32

because there is also industry in

1:04:34

peace building. We need the world

1:04:36

to trust where they

1:04:38

invest their money by showing the

1:04:41

world how successful our

1:04:43

efforts are on the ground by being

1:04:45

together and being united. By the end

1:04:47

of the day, it's not going to

1:04:49

be Robbie Damlin or Ali Abawad or

1:04:51

the parent circle or Tahrir who will

1:04:53

push for that agreement. We

1:04:55

will help for the agreement, but

1:04:57

it has to be a massive

1:04:59

national pressure by the

1:05:02

end of the day in Tel

1:05:04

Aviv and Ramallah and everywhere for

1:05:06

politicians to take courageous and painful

1:05:08

steps towards peace. It needs a

1:05:10

lot. Peace also is

1:05:13

fear for many Israelis today. Also

1:05:17

the miracle that we are still

1:05:19

continuing to work because

1:05:22

many organizations fell to pieces

1:05:24

and I think that's an

1:05:26

expression of trust, the

1:05:28

trust that Ali is talking about.

1:05:32

Because all these women who came onto the Zoom

1:05:34

with me the night before I left

1:05:36

for America said, even though

1:05:38

our lives are so difficult, we

1:05:40

want to continue to be members

1:05:42

of the parent circle. And

1:05:44

out of 700 families, only

1:05:47

three have lived, once in a

1:05:49

while. And I think that's a

1:05:51

miracle and that it should

1:05:54

be supported. The more

1:05:56

you support us, the more work we can do. The

1:06:00

do my best and my part to. Help

1:06:03

people understand what I'll are doing. Why?

1:06:06

I think it's debris this work I've ever

1:06:08

seen. I think Ali I think what it

1:06:10

requires is. The. Big Tremendous asked

1:06:12

that you're putting on the table

1:06:15

to find not humanity and yourself,

1:06:17

but humanity. In the people

1:06:19

that you were taught trains and

1:06:21

have actually really. we

1:08:00

pay the price of ourselves. We

1:08:02

are Siyami. We are so intertwined.

1:08:05

You know what? We

1:08:07

both have nowhere else to go.

1:08:10

Number two, no one wants us. I'm not

1:08:12

sure that the world wants the Jewish people

1:08:14

or the Arab wants the Palestinians. I'm not

1:08:17

sure. The history can tell us. Number

1:08:20

three, we will fight until

1:08:22

the last drop of blood

1:08:24

blindly for our existence. If

1:08:27

it is by war, believe me,

1:08:29

both sides will be defeated. So

1:08:32

this land will have no people

1:08:34

to live on anymore, not Israelis,

1:08:36

neither Palestinians. I'm

1:08:38

going to leave with this quote. It's

1:08:41

a mishmash of what you both said, but I

1:08:43

will remember it forever and I'm going to push

1:08:45

it forward. Peace

1:08:49

takes courage. War

1:08:53

is fueled by rage and anger and

1:08:58

reconciliation requires truth. That's

1:09:00

beautiful. Yeah. Ali,

1:09:03

I'm waiting for the manifesto as

1:09:05

soon as it's done. I see your big smile,

1:09:08

but no pressure, but I'm waiting for it. I'm

1:09:11

smiling because I'm surrounded, as Roby

1:09:13

always said, with so many angels

1:09:15

are trying to make this happen,

1:09:18

including yourself. Thank you so much for

1:09:21

having us. Yeah, I

1:09:23

just, I'm going to do

1:09:25

my part here to spread this message,

1:09:27

to try to get it right myself

1:09:29

first, to find my own humanity. And

1:09:32

not the easy way, not the way

1:09:34

like, Oh, I see it. I love it. But I see

1:09:36

the people I'm really angry with right now and

1:09:39

you've got my support and I'm in

1:09:43

it all the way. Thank you

1:09:46

so, so much for this. Thank

1:09:48

you. Thank you. Thank you all both.

1:09:51

Bye bye. I

1:10:00

hope this was an important

1:10:02

conversation for you. It was an important

1:10:05

conversation for me. All

1:10:08

of the information on Ali

1:10:11

and Robbie, Tahir, how

1:10:14

you can learn more about the

1:10:16

Parent Circle Family Forum, how

1:10:18

you can contribute and support these

1:10:22

efforts, all of these are on

1:10:24

brenebrown.com on the episode page for

1:10:27

this podcast. I

1:10:30

appreciate you listening. I

1:10:33

appreciate you creating some

1:10:37

expansiveness to learn,

1:10:39

to reevaluate, to challenge

1:10:42

ourselves and each other. That's

1:10:44

it. I'm grateful. And

1:10:47

stay awkward, brave, and kind. Unlocking

1:10:56

Us is produced by Brene Brown Education

1:10:58

and Research Group. The music is by

1:11:00

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1:11:03

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