0:05

VO: The podcast where three cartoonists take an in-depth look at the greatest comic strip of all time, Peanuts by Charles M. Schulz

0:18

Jimmy: Hey, everybody. Jimmy: Welcome back to the show.

0:21

Jimmy: This is 1984, so Big Brother may be watching you, but all he's going to be watching is you listening to our podcast for the next hour.

0:29

Michael: He'll be listening anyway. Harold: He's tuning in, Big Brother.

0:35

Jimmy: I'll be your host for the proceedings. Jimmy: My name is Jimmy Gownley.

0:38

Jimmy: I'm also the cartoonist of Amelia Rules, Seven Good Reasons Not to Grow Up and The Dumbest Idea Ever.

0:42

Jimmy: Joining me as always are my pals, co-hosts and fellow cartoonists.

0:46

Jimmy: He's a playwright and a composer, both for the band Complicated People as well as for this very podcast.

0:51

Jimmy: He's the co-creator of the original comic book prize guide, the original editor of Amelia Rules and the creator of such great strips as Strange Attractors, Gathering of Spells, and Tangled River.

1:00

Jimmy: It's Michael Cohen. Michael: Say hey. Jimmy: And he's the executive producer and writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a former vice president of Archie Comics and the creator of the Instagram sensation, Sweetest Beasts.

1:12

Jimmy: It's Harold Buchholz. Harold: Hello. Jimmy: Well, we are here in 1984, the legendary Orwell year.

1:20

Jimmy: Do you guys have any specific 84 memories?

1:24

Michael: Yeah. Michael: After I saw the movie for around six months, I looked under my bed every night because I'm sure there are rats there.

1:37

Jimmy: Oh, speaking of the rats thing gets a call out a shout out in Infinite Jest.

1:44

Jimmy: So as you get to the end there, Michael, Oh, I can look forward to that.

1:49

Jimmy: You'll be terrified of rats for another year or so.

1:54

Michael: I mean, how many years are forever enshrined in pop culture?

1:59

Michael: I think there's only two. Michael: 1984 and 2001.

2:04

Jimmy: 2001, obviously. Michael: 1999 from a song.

2:08

Jimmy: Oh, Prince? Michael: Yeah, there may be three. Michael: Yeah.

2:11

Jimmy: Yeah, three. Jimmy: Yeah, you're right. Jimmy: That's about it. Harold: Well, yeah, I was in high school in 1984, so that was a big year for me.

2:19

Harold: And that was the peak of the very colorful 80s.

2:24

Michael: And of course, there's 1941 by Harry Nielsen.

2:26

Jimmy: Yeah, I don't think that makes the iconic list.

2:32

Jimmy: Anyway, the point is there's only a few famous years.

2:34

Michael: Anyway, you could not ignore January 1st, 1984.

2:38

Michael: And I'm glad Schulz didn't. Jimmy: We're still there in some ways.

2:42

Michael: Getting there. Jimmy: So, Harold, you were in high school.

2:47

Jimmy: Any milestones this year?

2:50

Jimmy: Were you driving anything like that? Michael: Yeah.

2:52

Harold: Well, I was driving a car. Harold: It was kind of a good year to be a senior in high school.

2:57

Harold: And like the poor people who were going through COVID a couple of years ago, it was a lousy year to be in high school.

3:03

Harold: But it was a bright, colorful, 80s were pretty.

3:08

Harold: For a teenager, it was a nice time to be around.

3:11

Harold: I think I enjoyed it. Jimmy: That will be on the back of the 1984 yearbook.

3:19

Jimmy: It was okay. Jimmy: I enjoyed it. Jimmy: I was 12.

3:23

Jimmy: I was 12 in 1984. Jimmy: So it was pretty good.

3:26

Jimmy: Next year was my legendary 13th summer.

3:30

Jimmy: I will remember that for the rest of my life. Jimmy: That was really, really fun.

3:34

Jimmy: I think the 80s peak in the mid-80s and start to curdle towards the end of the 80s when things aren't, you're not quite sure what's happening, but we're here.

3:46

Jimmy: It's 84. Jimmy: Let's just start with the strips.

3:49

Jimmy: What the heck? Jimmy: Because here we are in January 1st.

3:52

Jimmy: We're starting with one of them good old symbolic panels.

3:56

Jimmy: By the way, if you want to follow us while we're doing this, you can go over to gocomics.com, type in the word peanuts, type in the dates we discuss, and you'll be able to read all of these strips for free.

4:07

Jimmy: If you want to know ahead of time what strips we're going to be discussing, then go over to unpackingpeanuts.com, sign up for our newsletter.

4:14

Jimmy: It's under the great peanuts reread, and then once a month, we will send you a newsletter and you'll know ahead of time what we're discussing.

4:21

Jimmy: So with that said, back to January 1st, 1984, in that old symbolic panel, Snoopy is asleep atop not his dog house, but the number 1984, and he looks a little worse for the wear.

4:35

Jimmy: And in panel two, Charlie Brown is following him as he walks, and Charlie Brown says to Snoopy, you look terrible.

4:42

Jimmy: Drank too much root beer last night, huh?

4:45

Jimmy: And Snoopy thinks to himself, not really. Jimmy: Charlie Brown says, and then you ate too many pizzas.

4:50

Jimmy: Is that right? Jimmy: At this point, now Snoopy is on top of his dog house looking super groggy.

4:55

Jimmy: He says, not really. Jimmy: Charlie Brown says, and then you stayed up all night dancing.

4:59

Jimmy: Boy, a bit of a fun scold here, Charlie Brown.

5:03

Jimmy: And Snoopy says, no, that wasn't it. Jimmy: That wasn't it at all.

5:06

Jimmy: It wasn't the root beer, the pizza or the dancing.

5:09

Jimmy: And then the last panel, he leans his face over the edge of his dog house and says, it's thinking about all the George Orwell jokes we're going to have to listen to in 1984.

5:19

Michael: I don't remember. Harold: Did you hear a lot of George Orwell jokes?

5:22

Michael: I don't remember any George Orwell jokes.

5:24

Michael: It was mostly like, we're doomed. Michael: That was pretty much the job.

5:29

Harold: Yeah, I think it was leading up to it. Harold: It was kind of like Y2K.

5:32

Harold: All the conversation was ahead of time. Jimmy: Ahead of time, right?

5:35

Jimmy: Yeah, well, because you know. Harold: You had it like, eh. Jimmy: It's exactly.

5:38

Liz: Do we need to do an obscurity? Michael: I hope not.

5:42

Jimmy: Yeah, people might not. Jimmy: I mean, there might be kids who don't know.

5:45

Jimmy: Back in the day, everybody read it in high school, but I'm shocked, frankly, by the American approach to literature in high school these days.

5:55

Harold: Yeah, we didn't read it. Harold: We didn't read it. Jimmy: Oh, really?

5:58

Harold: No. Jimmy: OK, let me ask you something. Harold: People talked about it a lot.

6:02

Jimmy: When you were in high school in English, was it a lot of literature you were reading, or what else were you reading?

6:08

Jimmy: What was your high school English curriculum like?

6:11

Harold: Yeah, there was a lot. Harold: I took an English literature class my junior year, and so we were reading Madame Bovary and Huckleberry Finn and all of that stuff.

6:22

Harold: And then we had an honors English class, and in 1984, two I remember that we read were Crime and Punishment, which is not a short book.

6:32

Harold: And East of Eden. Harold: Those are the two I remember that we read.

6:35

Harold: So yeah, I mean, there's just so many books to choose from, and if you're going to do them justice, you're going to take up a good chunk of the school year.

6:41

Harold: So you have to choose wisely, right? Harold: Yeah.

6:43

Jimmy: Oh, I think we did like four or five, I think we did four novels a year and a Shakespeare play every year from freshman year to senior year, 1984.

6:54

Jimmy: There were a couple of good... Harold: Back to the stereo box. Jimmy: Yeah, right, exactly.

6:56

Jimmy: Yeah, so we did a couple of good sci-fi ones.

6:59

Jimmy: We did 1984, we did Brave New World.

7:02

Jimmy: So yeah, so 1984 is a book written in 1948 by George Orwell and it postulates a future where everything that you do is spied on and there's no room for emotional relationships among people, everything is all very locked down.

7:20

Jimmy: And then it's a story about some people coming to terms with that and trying to escape it and whether they succeed in it.

7:27

Michael: Yeah, clearly one of the most influential books ever written in history.

7:31

Jimmy: Ever written, yeah.

7:33

Jimmy: He probably wrote two of those, cause Animal Farm is two.

7:36

Michael: Yeah, Animal Farm is like the hobbit to Lord of the Rings.

7:41

Jimmy: Right, exactly. Harold: So I heard that the, was it the CIA helped fund the animated Animal Farm that was made in England in 1954.

7:51

Michael: Yeah, that's pretty scary. Harold: Yeah, that's pretty wild. Michael: It's not pig friendly though, so it's not Happy Piggy Land, I'll tell you that.

7:57

Harold: No, that's not Happy Piggy Land.

8:00

Jimmy: That is up there, that is a water ship down level of terror in that animation.

8:07

Harold: Yeah, they definitely pushed the animated medium ahead a little bit with that one for more adults.

8:14

Michael: Oh, and then they did the remake of 1984.

8:17

Michael: They changed the ending? Jimmy: They did. Michael: Suddenly, in the remake, it was actually very, very, very good and then at the last minute, they chickened out.

8:27

Michael: And, you know, it's they're all shouting Big Brother and Julia's there and ignoring him completely, of course.

8:36

Michael: But in the movie, she like looks at him or something.

8:38

Michael: There was something in the end which he said, no, she's not totally programmed.

8:43

Michael: She's still herself. Jimmy: Oh, interesting, when did that come out?

8:46

Michael: I saw it in, you know, like Netflix.

8:49

Michael: So it might have come out like 10 years ago or something.

8:51

Michael: Oh, wow. Michael: Yeah. Jimmy: No, I was not aware.

8:54

Jimmy: Very interesting. Michael: Well, I have a better final panel.

8:59

Michael: This giant rat slashes at the dog house.

9:07

Harold: Oh, man. Harold: Well, Snoopy's eyes in this are very spiky, spiky.

9:10

Harold: I guess he's got the full round eye with the slit through it.

9:16

Harold: And it looks very much like Spike. Harold: That image in the lower left corner of the eyes of Snoopy, it seems like, as Schulz had the tremor that we've been talking about, and he's getting used to, I think, some of the looks that he's getting out of his hand, whether he likes it or not.

9:35

Harold: And so particularly this year, I've seen a lot of expressions in the eyes where he really takes advantage of these kind of rumpled expressions that we haven't seen much before.

9:47

Harold: Lucy, I think, started it maybe last year.

9:49

Harold: But this year, we got Linus and Snoopy and Spike and a lot of characters who are, they really take, he really takes advantage of the shake in the hand where the eyes just turn into this mass of jiggly lines.

10:03

Harold: And especially if someone's sulking, it's pretty effective.

10:07

Harold: Peppermint Patty does it a lot. Jimmy: Yeah, Peppermint Patty lends herself to the looser style for sure.

10:13

Jimmy: General scraggliness a lot of times.

10:18

Jimmy: January 3rd, Snoopy's atop the dog house and he is typing away.

10:22

Jimmy: And it seems as if he's writing a love letter. Jimmy: He says, dear sweetheart, without you, my days are endless.

10:28

Jimmy: Days seem like weeks, weeks like months, months like years, years like centuries, centuries like, you get the idea.

10:38

Michael: Did I miss something? Michael: Who is this sweetheart he's writing to?

10:42

Jimmy: I don't think he exists. Jimmy: She exists. Jimmy: I think it's just a bit, you know?

10:45

Jimmy: He has millions of girlfriends that give him those Valentine's.

10:50

Jimmy: So I assume it's one of those. Harold: Well, that's right.

10:53

Harold: Yeah, he's got quite the list. Jimmy: Yeah. Jimmy: You got to get the idea just made me laugh.

10:58

Jimmy: Absolutely hardcore. Jimmy: I really, really enjoyed it.

11:01

Jimmy: I also like, and we're going to see a little bit more of this.

11:03

Jimmy: I picked one strip just for it, but we're seeing, as you were discussing in the last strip there, Harold, more pen techniques.

11:11

Jimmy: Like that scratchiness of the way he's doing the shadows on the doghouse, which he has never really done.

11:18

Jimmy: That second panel, which I think looks great, where he's not filling it in with the brush.

11:23

Jimmy: He's just scratching away at it. Michael: Yeah.

11:25

Michael: But notice that- Harold: Yeah, those storm clouds floating beside him.

11:28

Michael: Yeah, the storm clouds are crossed at- Harold: Unless it's fog, I don't know.

11:31

Michael: So clearly, they went in front of the sun.

11:34

Michael: So that's why it's dark. Harold: Yeah.

11:37

Harold: Whoa. Harold: Interesting. Harold: Interesting.

11:40

Jimmy: That's really cool, actually, huh? Harold: He's changing the, it's like, I can't think of another time when, without any explanation, he changes the weather.

11:48

Harold: He changes the lighting. Harold: It's not part of the gag. Jimmy: That's really interesting.

11:51

Harold: Nicely done. Harold: It really does make an interesting looking strip.

11:55

Jimmy: As a matter of fact, the next strip, I chose both because it's funny, but also for this very discussion of the artwork, which is January 10th.

12:06

Jimmy: Sally's inside and she has worn a new outfit to school.

12:10

Jimmy: And she says to no one in particular, I knew I shouldn't have worn this purple dress to school.

12:16

Jimmy: And then panel two, we see Charlie Brown is in the room as well.

12:20

Jimmy: And she says, mom made me. Jimmy: Charlie Brown said, did anyone say anything?

12:25

Jimmy: Of course, says Sally. Jimmy: Somebody always says something.

12:28

Jimmy: Then in the last panel, she says, they said I looked like a tall grape.

12:33

Michael: I wonder if this was originally intended to be a Sunday.

12:37

Jimmy: It's weird to do a color gag in a black and white strip for sure.

12:42

Michael: Yeah, but it'd be hard to pad this out.

12:45

Jimmy: Yeah. Harold: There's a lot of really nice shading in this again.

12:49

Jimmy: It's all different. Jimmy: Look at that. Jimmy: We're seeing, I think it's an umbrella stand in panel one off to the far right.

12:56

Harold: Yeah. Jimmy: That's just, that's like Joe Kubrick lines almost.

13:00

Jimmy: It's, you know what I mean?

13:03

Jimmy: And the way he, very rough. Jimmy: And the way he goes in with the pen again and is just scribbling her purple dress in, which is also a weird choice considering it's purple.

13:14

Jimmy: But we're seeing it as black. Jimmy: Yeah.

13:18

Harold: But it's a really nice looking strip.

13:21

Harold: I mean, I really like that he's doing that here.

13:23

Harold: It gives it some visual interest in unique ways we haven't seen before with him.

13:28

Harold: It's a lot of things we've seen him do before, but he's pulling it all together here really nicely.

13:35

Harold: I wonder if he started with just trying to color in the purple and then he's like, wait a second, this isn't working unless I put other blacks in the strip to match her outfit.

13:47

Jimmy: Yeah, and he didn't go with the full black on Sally, I think because then it would just be black.

13:52

Jimmy: We're seeing those little scratch marks through as if maybe that's, it's almost like it's velvet, right?

13:57

Jimmy: And you're seeing that those lighter parts. Harold: Yeah.

14:00

Harold: What do I mom made her wear that purple dress? Jimmy: It was a gift from her grandma probably, right?

14:04

Jimmy: Something like that. Jimmy: You're wearing that. Jimmy: Very good.

14:07

Harold: And she got a photo probably going off to school.

14:11

Michael: He is spotting blacks, which is something he didn't do back in the old days when we last paid attention to that.

14:17

Michael: But even in the second panel with the TV, he puts the little potted plants and black in there, which balance it.

14:25

Harold: And that TV is as detailed a screen as I've ever seen.

14:28

Harold: It's usually just a little. Jimmy: I think all of this has to do with the fact that he is navigating the hand drummer and is trying to find new ways to achieve the things that he achieved previously, because you're absolutely right about all of that.

14:46

Harold: I do love his lettering. Harold: Sometimes he's struggling with his lettering, it seems like, but here he's not.

14:53

Harold: I mean, that's really nice, clean, interesting lettering.

14:59

Jimmy: January 22nd, panel one.

15:01

Jimmy: It's a Sunday here. Jimmy: Linus is hanging out with Snoopy, and Snoopy is leaning up against a small pile of snow at like a 45 degree angle.

15:10

Jimmy: And he also has a smile on his face because it looks like he's up to something.

15:14

Jimmy: Linus says, she's coming. Jimmy: Play it cool.

15:18

Jimmy: And they both play it cool for a panel with Linus whistling nonchalantly.

15:23

Jimmy: And in the next panel, because where the strip really starts, because that first tier is removable, Linus says, she's getting closer.

15:31

Jimmy: Don't look. Jimmy: What in the world do you call this?

15:34

Jimmy: Says Lucy as she appears, and then Linus very delicately places a snowball on top of Snoopy's nose, and he's still lying on top of that pile of snow.

15:45

Jimmy: And Linus says, we haven't quite decided yet.

15:47

Jimmy: Then he steps on Snoopy's foot, which sends Snoopy standing up like if it's a rake that you stepped on, and which has the added bonus of sending the snowball that was on Snoopy's nose flying and hitting Lucy in the head.

16:03

Jimmy: So he made himself a little catapult out of Snoopy.

16:06

Jimmy: And then the last panel, Snoopy and Linus are both delighted with themselves as they run from a furious Lucy.

16:12

Jimmy: And Linus says, but I think maybe we'll call it a success.

16:17

Michael: I think this is a really good gag.

16:20

Michael: It sure had me wondering what was going on.

16:23

Jimmy: Right. Michael: But I do want to point out, since we were talking about spotting blacks, first of all, spotting blacks is a way in comics where you put the blacks in a way that they make a composition by themselves.

16:38

Michael: So if you took away all the lines except the blacks, it would create something that balanced out a harmonious composition.

16:49

Michael: And you see here every single panel, he's balancing them.

16:53

Michael: And he made Linus's hat mostly black to balance Snoopy's ears.

16:58

Jimmy: Interesting. Harold: Yeah. Harold: And as we mentioned earlier, earlier, earlier, I did not know what the term spotting blacks meant.

17:06

Harold: I always heard it as a cartoonist. Harold: I didn't know what it was until you guys got me up to speed.

17:10

Harold: So I'm grateful for that. Harold: That's one great thing I learned this podcast.

17:16

Michael: If you read enough comics journals, you'd know that whenever they're talking about a cartoonist, they'll say, yeah, he's like the greatest.

17:24

Michael: Alex Toth is a genius with spotting blacks.

17:27

Harold: Yeah, I'd read that and think I knew it, what it was.

17:30

Harold: And I had no idea what it was. Michael: Because I hated Alex Toth.

17:33

Michael: And I kind of went, so it's not important.

17:36

Jimmy: Oh, take that, Alex Toth.

17:40

Michael: Yeah, take that. Michael: Boy, I never liked him. Liz: Draws like Toth.

17:43

Michael: Yeah, we used to... Michael: Our expression for a cartoonist who we hated was really bad.

17:51

Michael: We said, boy, he draws like Toth. Jimmy: Well, I'll never forget.

17:54

Jimmy: Michael and I were having a signing at Claude's Comics, the late, great Claude's Comics in Hapborough, PA, because we were going out that night to the Pittsburgh Convention or something like that.

18:09

Jimmy: And Michael had a brand new issue of Strange Attractors, and there was a bottom panel on one of the pages where it's like a wide shot, and there's a lot of action going on.

18:19

Jimmy: And I'm like, oh, I love that panel. Jimmy: It's very Tothian.

18:21

Jimmy: And he goes, that was the code for me and all my friends for the worst art of all time.

18:28

Michael: By the way, Robin Snyder, a fan of the podcast, I apologize because Robin is a huge Alex Toth fan.

18:37

Jimmy: I like Alex. Harold: Michael, I was just thinking of this, you when I read this strip, Michael, because there's two places that Winos could have put that snowball, and we've talked about how Snoopy's forehead has changed over the years, and he kind of loses the opportunity to put it in the forehead because Snoopy's losing his...

18:58

Michael: Well, I'm wondering, in panel five, if this snowball would actually stay there.

19:04

Michael: It looks like it would roll down.

19:06

Jimmy: I think it would depend on the consistency of the snow.

19:10

Michael: Yeah. Jimmy: If it's like a wet snow, he'd probably say that.

19:14

Harold: Right. Harold: Yeah, I bought it.

19:16

Harold: Of course, I see Snoopy on his doghouse all the time on that little point, and I'm like, okay.

19:22

Harold: Anything's possible. Harold: I love the little drawing of Linus and Snoopy happily running away in the final panel.

19:32

Harold: That's another great T-shirt. Jimmy: Yeah, it really is.

19:35

Michael: You think a dog could run faster on four legs?

19:42

Harold: That's a good point. Harold: I sure love that drawing.

19:45

Harold: His ears going backward. Harold: They don't look like they're running very fast, do they?

19:50

Jimmy: I love it. Jimmy: I love the smile on Snoopy's face in the first panel.

19:55

Jimmy: He's just totally up for this. Jimmy: I love it. Harold: A little cheesy grin.

20:00

Jimmy: We talk about cartoonists and strips that maybe the general public aren't familiar with.

20:05

Jimmy: I always just try to figure out some way that they might know it.

20:09

Jimmy: Alex Toth, if you are not a comics head who's just in the know of everything, you've seen everything.

20:16

Jimmy: Space Ghost, he did the design for that.

20:19

Jimmy: All of those Hanna-Barbera shows from...

20:21

Harold: Shiny Quest? Jimmy: No, that was Doug Wilde.

20:25

Jimmy: But he did the Hercules, the Super Friends, all kinds of stuff like that that you would definitely know.

20:34

Jimmy: Now I'm blanking on the other ones, but all those Hanna-Barbera model sheets were designed by him from those early 70s show.

20:42

Jimmy: If you want one of the really cool Alex Toth things and you can kind of get it still cheap is in the 70s, DC Comics and Marvel used to do these giant collections.

20:53

Jimmy: They're called Treasury-sized editions.

20:55

Jimmy: They're like 9 by 12 or something, huge comics that they sold for like a buck 50 in the 70s.

21:01

Jimmy: And he has an original Super Friends story in there, which is neat, but it also has a complete five-page essay all written by hand by him of how they made those cartoons.

21:12

Jimmy: So it's like a complete time capsule, yes, of how Hanna-Barbera cartoons were made in 1973 or four, whenever it came out.

21:20

Jimmy: It's really cool. Harold: So was Alex Toth the guy with you people wrote him, he'd like write them back in postcards and all caps, and he was famous for sending mail.

21:28

Michael: And Robin again was corresponding with Toth a lot, so he had a whole bunch of those.

21:34

Jimmy: They usually ended badly. Jimmy: Like at some point he got sick of you and you got in a fight.

21:41

Jimmy: I know that happened with guys like Paul Pope. Michael: No, I feel a little guilty because he is considered one of the great masters.

21:47

Harold: What did you like about his art? Harold: Was it just too rushed looking?

21:51

Michael: No, it's Kniff style.

21:53

Michael: I liked really detailed, I mean, so-called realism.

21:58

Michael: My favorite guys, you know, like Al Williamson and Wally Wood.

22:02

Michael: But Toth was more of the, let's simplify everything and just put in blotches of black.

22:10

Harold: What do you think of Joe Kubrick's stuff? Michael: I don't like it anymore.

22:13

Michael: I used to love Kubrick, too scratchy for me.

22:15

Michael: Anyway, that's another podcast. Michael: Yeah, my tastes are changing.

22:20

Jimmy: The one thing I always, people used to talk about, oh, those Milton Kniff women, he would draw.

22:26

Jimmy: I'm like, have you seen real women? Jimmy: Real women are a lot better looking than Milton Kniff's women.

22:30

Jimmy: I don't know what you're talking about, but all right. Harold: Maybe it was a certain era they're remembering that we don't know.

22:37

Michael: Eisner was definitely the master of drawing women in those days.

22:44

Jimmy: January 27th, Schroeder and Lucy are hanging out as Schroeder's panning away at the Keys, and Lucy is in her classic position at the piano.

22:53

Jimmy: And she says to him, If we were married, I'd fix your cold cereal for you every morning, Schroeder says, and then you'd probably talk the whole time so I couldn't eat and the cereal would get soggy.

23:04

Jimmy: Schroeder goes back to playing at the piano, Lucy looks shocked, and then she turns away from him and says, Our marriage is in deep trouble.

23:13

Jimmy: That's just a great punchline. Jimmy: That made me really laugh out loud.

23:16

Jimmy: I didn't remember it and I didn't expect it.

23:19

Jimmy: And it was really funny. Michael: Well, how about that big black blotch?

23:23

Jimmy: That's what I was just gonna say. Harold: Yeah, he just started doing this this year.

23:27

Michael: Yeah, there is no, that's the opposite of plotting blacks.

23:30

Jimmy: Well, yes and no. Jimmy: It depends.

23:33

Jimmy: It's yes and no. Jimmy: I think it's like how you would occasionally go for a bluesy note if you're soloing or something.

23:43

Jimmy: It's not technically in the scale or whatever, but it gives it that little extra.

23:47

Jimmy: I think it works in the sense.

23:50

Harold: So can you describe what you're seeing? Michael: Well, you just get a profile of Shorter's head in panel two, but the part of the panel behind his head is all black and the part in front is all white.

24:05

Michael: Yeah, it's a yin and yang look, which I don't have any problem with it, but it defies what we were talking about earlier about spotting the blacks to balance the panel.

24:17

Michael: It throws it off balance, which gives it a certain tension.

24:21

Harold: How about the whole strip itself?

24:23

Jimmy: Yeah, balance is the whole strip, I think, because of the black of Lucy's hair.

24:28

Jimmy: That's sort of what I think. Harold: He does it a lot this year.

24:31

Jimmy: It's not just balance.

24:33

Jimmy: The other thing you can do with spotting blacks is that you can draw attention to a place.

24:38

Jimmy: It's not only if you have something there, you have to have something in the other side.

24:43

Jimmy: It is that, but it's also using the blacks to guide the eye to what is and is not important.

24:53

Jimmy: So I think when Hernandez, I mean Hernandez, will do a silhouette in the background of the whole town and it will just be three black rectangles or whatever, that's spotting black too because he's telling you that, well, the most important thing is this person over in the corner panel or whatever.

25:09

Michael: Yeah, and just for dramatic effect, it doesn't have to make sense.

25:15

Michael: But if that black spot wasn't there, you would never notice anything wrong with that panel.

25:22

Jimmy: Correct, right. Harold: For those of you who are listening along and are trying to visualize again what we're doing and talking about here, Michael described it really well that the black is to the back of the head of Schroeder and then there's white to the right of his face.

25:38

Harold: But this design, he's doing quite a bit in 1984, and I think he maybe introduces it here, maybe he did it before, but I really noticed it all this year.

25:47

Harold: But what he's doing is he's got the head of a character, pretty much you're just seeing the head maybe down to the shoulders, and then the top of the head actually goes up into the word balloon, which of course is a big white space underneath the lettering.

26:01

Harold: So there's a clear delineation of the bottom of the balloon to the left of the character if he's facing to the right, and it just, it works.

26:10

Harold: And I just, it's a neat little innovation that he came up with that I think he liked quite a bit, at least he did for a period of time.

26:15

Michael: Well, let's look for it in following strips.

26:19

Jimmy: January 29th, another Sunday. Jimmy: Sally is starting to make what looks like a snowball, but then as she goes on for the next several panels, we see she has rolled up what looks like the bottom of a snowman.

26:33

Jimmy: And then in the penultimate panel, she is carrying Snoopy.

26:39

Jimmy: And in the last panel, we see she just stuck Snoopy in the snowball, so he is the snowman's head and arms.

26:47

Jimmy: And Snoopy says, I hate playing snowman.

26:52

Michael: We have the happiness index. Michael: We have the anger index.

26:55

Michael: For me, I'd like to have something called the laughter index.

27:00

Michael: This is the one time I laughed out loud in the 1984 strips.

27:07

Michael: And it used to be fairly common. Michael: I always surprised myself back in the 50s and 60s, because I'd read those like dozens of times.

27:16

Michael: And I was still laughing out loud a lot.

27:18

Jimmy: Yeah, but that's why you were laughing out loud, I think.

27:21

Harold: You think? Harold: Yeah. Michael: Well, maybe. Michael: Yeah. Michael: But this was the one time this year I guffawed because it's so funny.

27:31

Harold: Now, Michael, you say you often, your eye will take you to the last panel.

27:34

Harold: Is that true in the Sundays as well? Harold: Do you remember, like, would you have seen this before you saw the context?

27:39

Harold: Where would you laugh? Harold: Would you laugh by the time you hit the last panel?

27:42

Harold: Were you already laughing because you saw it before you finished reading the script?

27:45

Michael: Well, I mean, peripheral vision, it just depends whether you flick your eye to focus a little bit more.

27:51

Michael: I think I was actually managed to be surprised when I got to that last panel, so I did not look at it.

27:59

Harold: And I love the impossibilities, again, that Schulz does with his characters going off model.

28:04

Harold: And like his his little right paw is so far away from his body.

28:10

Harold: There's no way in a typical Snoopy strip if he was putting out his arms that they would be in this the snowman pose.

28:16

Harold: But it's so funny. Harold: Again, he breaks the rules and he knows when to break the rules.

28:20

Liz: Isn't it a call back to a previous Sally?

28:24

Liz: I hate playing stuffed animal or something like that.

28:28

Michael: She did use him as a stuffed animal, didn't she?

28:30

Jimmy: That's right. Harold: Sally is very, very least amount of work.

28:36

Harold: Just roll one big ball and then grab your dog and stuff him into the top.

28:41

Harold: And then you get a couple pieces of coal that look like his nose in your dog.

28:44

Jimmy: Look, Sally's smart. Jimmy: Hey, when I worked at that TV station, by the end, I had streamlined my job down.

28:51

Jimmy: I could do it in about 50 minutes. Michael: Did you have to paint?

28:56

Michael: You had to paint a cow every year too.

28:58

Michael: Did you get that? Jimmy: No, just one year I had to paint a cow.

29:04

Harold: That's de rigueur in the Pennsylvania television world.

29:07

Jimmy: Oh, gosh. Jimmy: So I had just had, oh, I didn't have, but we had just had twin daughters, baby girls, twins.

29:16

Jimmy: They were less than a year old. Jimmy: And the Cow Parade came to Harrisburg, PA, which is this organization.

29:22

Jimmy: And they they sculpt these giant 12, 15 foot cows out of fiberglass.

29:29

Jimmy: And then local artists paint them and they're auctioned off.

29:32

Jimmy: So OK, so I was working the job.

29:35

Jimmy: I had the two kids that were babies and I was doing Amelia.

29:39

Jimmy: It was in the middle of the superhero storyline.

29:41

Jimmy: And I'm walking and I have not sleeping at all.

29:44

Jimmy: Circles around my eyes and I walk through the newsroom and the reporter goes, guess what?

29:48

Jimmy: You're going to be so excited. Jimmy: I volunteered you to paint the Cow Parade, the ABC 27 Cow.

29:56

Jimmy: Are you kidding me? Jimmy: It was absolutely awful.

29:59

Jimmy: And someone bought it for thousands of dollars.

30:01

Jimmy: I'll never understand.

30:05

Harold: Do you know where it is? Harold: Is it like, is it like happily on display somewhere in Harrisburg?

30:09

Jimmy: Yeah, someone bought it. Jimmy: It's on their front lawn. Harold: OK, for some reason, the HOAs are very lenient in Harrisburg.

30:17

Michael: I thought it was part of your job. Michael: You had to do it every year.

30:19

Jimmy: Every year, paint the cow. Harold: You're our director.

30:24

Harold: It's in the contract. Jimmy: Oh, my Lord.

30:30

Jimmy: February 6th, Peppermint Patty shows up to Marcie's house.

30:34

Jimmy: It's before school and we can see it looks like a snowy day.

30:38

Jimmy: And Peppermint Patty says, put your ice skates on, Marcie.

30:41

Jimmy: It rained last night and the sidewalks are all frozen.

30:44

Jimmy: We can skate to school. Jimmy: The kids in Holland always skate to school, Peppermint Patty says, as the two of them head off on their skates.

30:52

Jimmy: Marcie, very shaky on her skate says, I don't believe that, sir.

30:56

Jimmy: Peppermint Patty says, Peggy Fleming skated to school every day.

30:59

Jimmy: Marcie says, I don't believe that, sir.

31:02

Jimmy: Last panel, Peppermint Patty skates away and saying, we'll get to school a lot faster this way.

31:08

Jimmy: But we see Marcie is already upended and is head first in a snowbank.

31:13

Jimmy: And she says, I don't believe that either, sir. Jimmy: I picked this one for the drawing.

31:18

Jimmy: That last panel, you never see a tiny little drawing of a character like that from the back skating away.

31:26

Jimmy: I think that's a great little drawing.

31:29

Jimmy: And I also loved anything. Jimmy: Like when I, if I was a little kid and I heard of the concept of kids skating to school, like I would be so jealous.

31:38

Jimmy: That's all I would want to do. Jimmy: Oh, they skate to school.

31:41

Jimmy: Oh, anything like that. Michael: Yeah, I was in LA and I'm like, boy, in Northern California, they can like skate to school.

31:51

Harold: Yeah, although he establishes this year that they are not in California, at least for this, that particular script.

31:57

Harold: They mentioned going to California or something like that.

32:00

Harold: So that's interesting. Harold: It's also interesting, again, from the different angles that Schulz will draw.

32:04

Harold: Here he is drawing Peppermint Patty from the back, which you say is unusual, Jimmy.

32:09

Harold: He could have shown the poof of Peppermint Patty's hair at the top from the back, and he chooses not to.

32:15

Jimmy: He did that with Sally when he showed her from behind in a couple episodes ago.

32:19

Jimmy: I think it works better here than it did with Sally because Sally's hair is ridiculous.

32:25

Jimmy: Sally's hair is like Rondo's from Amelia Rolls, and it doesn't make any sense.

32:30

Jimmy: So when you draw her from behind, you know...

32:35

Jimmy: It is what it is. Jimmy: But this actually, if I just knew that was a Peanuts character, I'd be like, yeah, it definitely looks like Department of Academy.

32:42

Harold: There are so many sports and activities all over this year.

32:46

Harold: I mean, we mentioned before that Schulz is maybe one of the more athletic cartoonists that we know of from this era or any era.

32:55

Harold: Cartoonists don't tend to be famous for that.

32:59

Harold: He sponsored a, I think it was, I don't know if they call it like a mixed, basically a mixed doubles golf tournament this year.

33:07

Harold: And he's just been super involved in sports in so many ways.

33:11

Harold: We know he's running the ice rink.

33:13

Harold: And I just started to write down all of the activities and sports that are in this year.

33:18

Harold: And the list is crazy. Harold: It's, I see hockey, football, jogging, baseball, basketball, horseshoes, fishing, sack racing, ice skating, bicycling, hiking, aerobics, golf, tennis, dancing, sledding and desert hockey and fishing.

33:33

Harold: Wow. Harold: That's quite a quite a range in a single year for but he's very active.

33:39

Harold: And we know he had the surgery on his heart.

33:43

Harold: And, you know, those are the things that he's very, very into.

33:48

Harold: He already was. Harold: But I think it's very important to him now to be active.

33:53

Harold: And he's thinking about being active because it's the stakes are higher.

33:56

Harold: Right. Michael: Yeah. Harold: For him. Harold: So there's lots and lots of activity and sports in these.

34:00

Harold: And it's because he himself is living in it.

34:03

Michael: Yeah. Jimmy: That's really interesting. Jimmy: The other thing I would say is I officially believe that these new pants that the girls are wearing are corduroys because not everybody could be walking around wearing straight pants all the time.

34:14

Jimmy: Right. Jimmy: And Marcie has them here.

34:17

Jimmy: So I think they are definitely corduroys. Harold: Oh, yeah.

34:19

Harold: What did you think of corduroys? Harold: I kind of liked corduroys as a kid.

34:23

Harold: Yeah, that was the downside. Harold: Having the ribs of them rushing against themselves, which it's fun or it's not fun.

34:30

Harold: If you're trying to be in stealth, corduroys were not the thing.

34:37

Jimmy: February 10th, Charlie Brown has some stationery out, so you know that's going to go well.

34:42

Jimmy: And he says to Sally, this year I'm not going to buy any valentines.

34:46

Jimmy: Instead, I'm going to make my own. Jimmy: So there we see in panel three, a giant smudged mess of dear valentine.

34:54

Jimmy: And then Sally says, who are you sending them to? Jimmy: People you don't like?

34:57

Jimmy: I don't have much to say about it.

35:01

Jimmy: That's just funny. Jimmy: Good stuff.

35:06

Jimmy: February 23rd, Charlie Brown is in class and he very forcefully raises his hand and says, and that's the way I see it, absolutely, for sure.

35:17

Jimmy: Linus, who apparently has skipped the grade and is now fully in Charlie Brown's class, says to him, actually, you have your facts mixed up, Charlie Brown.

35:25

Jimmy: Charlie Brown says, I do? Jimmy: I guess maybe you're right.

35:28

Jimmy: And Charlie Brown says, I have very strong opinions, but they don't last long.

35:34

Jimmy: I can kind of relate to that, especially in the sense of, I find that when I'm 100% certain for some sort of new thing that, no way, that is not true.

35:47

Jimmy: I'm almost always wrong. Harold: Almost always.

35:50

Jimmy: You can judge my wrongness by how sure I am that I'm right in the initial conversation.

35:58

Harold: Can't trust the gut. Harold: I can totally relate to this as well.

36:03

Harold: Sometimes you just have those moments where you're like, this is the way it is.

36:07

Harold: Then two hours later, it's like, oh, wow. Jimmy: It's not real.

36:13

Harold: Perfect Charlie Brown stuff. Jimmy: Great, great Charlie Brown stuff.

36:17

Jimmy: He can still do the minimal, clean drawing when he needs to.

36:22

Jimmy: But if you look at those word balloons, you can really see how much of a struggle the tremor is becoming.

36:29

Jimmy: Especially the second half, the right side of the word balloon on panel one and all really of panels, especially two.

36:37

Harold: Yeah, you wonder how much it came and went for him.

36:40

Harold: If you just have a day where it's like, oh my gosh, I can actually do more.

36:45

Harold: It's less strong. Jimmy: I'm sure. Harold: I just can't imagine how frustrating that must have been for him and the adjustments he had to make.

36:51

Jimmy: Yeah, and it's tied to something like your heart.

36:54

Jimmy: It's a very nerve wracking situation to be in.

36:57

Jimmy: You're already dealing with just that. Jimmy: And it has this sort of side effect that's right to the heart of your art.

37:06

Jimmy: I'm grateful and wildly impressed that he just kept going and that the work is still so good.

37:13

Jimmy: I'm really happy that he did this for us.

37:16

Jimmy: Well, me too. Jimmy: He didn't do it for his money or for anything else, really.

37:19

Jimmy: He did it because he liked his readers, I think.

37:22

Jimmy: And this was his life. Jimmy: February 8th, Peppermint Patty arrives at Marcie's house.

37:28

Jimmy: Marcie comes out to greet her and she says, You're going to be proud of me, sir.

37:31

Jimmy: I've been practicing my skating. Jimmy: She continues in panel two.

37:34

Jimmy: There's an indoor arena across town with a big ice rink and a nice coffee shop.

37:39

Jimmy: Marcie spreads her arms out as she's discussing this animatedly.

37:43

Jimmy: And we see that one of her arms is in fact bandaged up.

37:47

Jimmy: Peppermint Patty says to her, What happened to your arm?

37:50

Jimmy: And then in the last panel, Marcie says, I fell down in the coffee shop.

37:56

Harold: And then he had added the coffee shop in his own ice rink, which I think was pretty funny.

38:03

Harold: He's given himself a little indirect plug there.

38:06

Jimmy: And apparently you can go there and you can get a pig pen hot chocolate for yourself.

38:12

Harold: Ah, that's cool. Harold: And that seems to be the other thing that Schulz seems to have a little bit of an obsession, even more so than usual, is food this year.

38:24

Harold: And again, maybe that's because when you restrict sports, you got to do more of it, more activity after heart surgery, and then there's certain things you can't eat.

38:33

Harold: And I made a list of all of the foods that he talked about this year.

38:37

Jimmy: Oh, God, what do we got? Harold: We got chocolate sundae, cereal, pizza, cupcakes, baguettes, root beer, doughnuts, pancakes, chocolate chip cookies, peanut butter cookies, lemon pie, chocolate cake.

38:51

Harold: There's quite a list of things that, and most of them are things you couldn't eat probably.

38:54

Harold: Maybe you shouldn't be eating. Harold: So I was just wondering if again, is that something that is influencing him?

39:01

Harold: Because I can totally understand when you start to obsess over the thing you can't eat.

39:05

Harold: So I've had some food allergies. Harold: Corn was a big thing for me for years, and unfortunately I'm better about that.

39:10

Harold: But I liked corn, but all this time when you can't have corn.

39:14

Jimmy: In America. Harold: Oh, yeah, corn syrup, corn flour, corn starch, popcorn, corn chips.

39:18

Harold: Yeah, but you do obsess over the thing you can't have.

39:23

Harold: And if you're just sitting in a studio, and maybe it's a little bit before lunch, you might start thinking of some good, good cakes.

39:30

Jimmy: Well, speaking of food, I kind of need to go get a snack.

39:34

Jimmy: Why don't we take a break here, and then we come back afterwards, have a snack, read the mail, and try to get through the rest of these strips.

39:41

Harold: Sounds good. Jimmy: All right, we'll see you on the other side.

39:45

Liz: Hi, everyone. Liz: We love it when you write or call to tell us how much you enjoy the show.

39:50

Liz: But don't just tell us. Liz: Tell your friends.

39:53

Liz: Tell complete strangers. Liz: Share your appreciation in a review.

39:57

Liz: It doesn't have to be on Apple podcasts.

40:00

Liz: 60% of you listen on other apps.

40:02

Liz: Some of those apps have review sections. Liz: Think of all the poor Peanuts fans out there who haven't found us yet.

40:10

Liz: There are review instructions on our website at unpackingpeanuts.com/spread the word.

40:17

Liz: Thank you for your support. Liz: And now let's hear what some of you have to say.

40:22

Jimmy: OK, we're back. Jimmy: I hope you're all rested up as we get to the second half of the year.

40:27

Jimmy: But before we do that, Liz, do we have any mail?

40:30

Liz: We do. Liz: We got a lot this week. Liz: Super listener Debbie Perry wrote, and she says it's been a while since I wrote last time, but I'm still here.

40:38

Jimmy: All right. Liz: She says, When you mentioned the book Kisser, You Blockhead, it hit me why I remembered so much of the material you covered from 1982.

40:47

Liz: At least two of these stories ended up on the Charlie Brown and Snoopy show a year later, the one with Linus and Snoopy planting Lucy's garden and the one with Charlie Brown losing his ball field.

40:58

Liz: Someone must have liked those two a lot to rush them into the Saturday morning show so quickly.

41:04

Harold: Right. Harold: And you wonder, is Schulz thinking, hey, I want to do some longer form stuff because I know there's a use for it.

41:10

Harold: Because he probably would have known about that show around the time that came up.

41:14

Harold: So I don't know how much he was influenced by that or if he pretty much kept it pure and whatever he was led to.

41:19

Jimmy: I think there had to be some influence because, especially with the rerun stuff coming back, rerun was a nonentity for so long and he's being animated in that first season of this show.

41:34

Jimmy: And suddenly we're seeing him in the strips again. Jimmy: And I think that has to be like Schulz saying people need to somehow familiarize themselves with this character again.

41:43

Harold: Right. Harold: Or maybe because he's seeing it for the animated show, it just reminds him and he's like, oh, I could do another rerun strip.

41:50

Jimmy: Well, yeah, it could go. Jimmy: Yes, it could go either way. Jimmy: Right.

41:52

Jimmy: 100 percent. Liz: Yes. Jimmy: Well, thank you, Debbie.

41:55

Harold: Yeah, thanks, Debbie. Liz: We also heard from Simon Lunt.

41:59

Liz: He says, I'm an avid listener here from North Yorkshire in England.

42:03

Liz: I loved Peanuts as a kid and your passion and deep dive is a delight to listen to.

42:08

Liz: We're a neurodiverse household and there's always been something comforting and anxiety reducing in peanut strips and cartoons, to me at least.

42:18

Liz: The pace and pitch of your podcast mimics this warmth and it is to be commended.

42:23

Jimmy: Oh, thank you. Liz: And then he asks a question.

42:26

Liz: Do you have any thoughts about the tone, style and characters as to why they appeal both across the pond and also across different diverse communities?

42:36

Harold: What a great question. Harold: It is. Jimmy: First, Yorkshire, home of Def Leppard, a gang of four and I think Human League, so that's cool.

42:47

Michael: And the Terriers. Harold: As opposed to the Boston Terriers who were more stateside.

42:56

Harold: But, you know, that is, I mean, to me, a simple answer, but maybe it's an important one, is simplicity, right?

43:05

Jimmy: Yeah. Harold: It is so spare that I think a lot of the details that could be in some other medium when it comes to that has a visual to it, there are fashions and styles and things that if they're front and center because you're watching a television show or whatever, it can place something a little bit more than peanuts, which is in a very sparse setting.

43:33

Harold: And the clothes that are being worn are, again, very simply drawn.

43:37

Harold: And, you know, I've often talked about animals, how much I love drawing animals, because you can't easily type them based on, you know, the fashion that they're wearing or whatever.

43:46

Harold: They're just the animal walking around. Harold: And that always was appealing to me because it's more the personality of the character that you hopefully are relating to.

43:54

Harold: And Schulz is not big on puns.

43:57

Harold: So it seems like a lot of the strips probably translate well versus another kind of cartoonist who would be more bound in his space of a readership that has to have a knowledge.

44:08

Harold: Now, certainly he's making references to people that we don't even know who they are sometimes.

44:14

Harold: So I'm sure there are certain foreign foreign translation strips where the translator is like, Oh, what do I do with this?

44:20

Harold: No one's going to get this. Michael: I have a question for Simon.

44:24

Michael: How did you react to the baseball strips?

44:30

Michael: I know quite a few Brits and it seems like the majority of them know rounders or some other English forms of baseball.

44:39

Michael: But Peanuts gets pretty technical in baseball slang.

44:43

Michael: And I wondered if you understood those or maybe they just didn't reprint them.

44:48

Jimmy: See, you didn't know you were going to get a homework assignment when you wrote them.

44:53

Jimmy: Anything else, Liz? Liz: Yes, we got a wonderful five-star review from Beagle Scout Wannabe who writes, What a fantastic podcast.

45:03

Liz: It was a very good day when I happened upon this podcast.

45:06

Liz: It's an absolute gem. Liz: I was a total Peanuts nerd growing up and I'm now really enjoying reliving the strips through this podcast.

45:15

Liz: You all have such an easygoing rapport too.

45:18

Liz: Listening to you makes my boring work commute go by in a flash.

45:22

Liz: Happiness is unpacking peanuts.

45:26

Jimmy: Thank you. Liz: And there's a PS.

45:29

Liz: Andy Cap was one of my dad's favorite strips, but it never worked for me.

45:36

Michael: Too British. Harold: Too British.

45:39

Harold: But it was in a ton of papers over here.

45:42

Harold: Talk about a strip that goes to the other side of the pond.

45:46

Harold: That's probably the most successful strip that was being done in England that was in the United States as well.

45:52

Harold: And I think of like Fred Bassett, I think was also not quite as popular over here.

45:56

Harold: But yeah, it was kind of a rarity to get something in the United States that was being made overseas.

46:01

Jimmy: Yeah. Liz: So how about the hotline?

46:04

Liz: Did you get stuff on the hotline? Jimmy: I got two texts from the hotline.

46:07

Jimmy: So the first one is, if there was going to be a new animated movie where the characters were voiced by adults, who would you cast as the voice actors of BOGC?

46:20

Jimmy: Jake. Jimmy: Boy.

46:26

Jimmy: I would pick Adam Scott from Parks and Rec for Linus, and I'd pick Ellie Kemper from Kimmy Schmidt for Sally.

46:38

Jimmy: Those two I can think of. Michael: I'll go with James Earl Jones for Charlie Brown.

46:43

Jimmy: Well, that's a no-brainer. Jimmy: That's why I didn't even mention it.

46:50

Harold: How about you, Harold? Jimmy: Do you have any picks? Harold: No, I'm so out of touch with what's going on in the popular culture right now.

46:58

Jimmy: No, no, it doesn't matter. Jimmy: We're in the world of AI.

47:02

Jimmy: You could be from any time. Liz: You could do your Ronald Coleman impression again.

47:09

Harold: I'm getting myself in trouble here with Ronald Coleman impersonation.

47:13

Harold: That's what all the kids want these days, but I just hold it out.

47:19

Harold: So these are characters as they are as kids?

47:24

Jimmy: I don't know. Jimmy: You heard the text.

47:27

Jimmy: Yeah, it's going to be an animated movie of the Peanuts characters, but instead of using kids, they're using adult actors for the voices.

47:34

Jimmy: That's what it is. Harold: One actor who I would love to insert somehow in here because he has this wonderful, goofy, stilted delivery, especially now in his later more recent years is Matthew Broderick.

47:50

Harold: My wife and I joke that he's got an amazing sense of humor, and I don't think he's had enough opportunities to show it off, but we've seen him on Broadway a couple of times, and I don't know, Diane and I are laughing out loud at virtually every line he's making.

48:04

Harold: The people are silent. Harold: But I think he's hilarious, and this is not Peanuts, but if I could cast Matthew Broderick in an animated special, he would absolutely do Hermie the Elf from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

48:18

Jimmy: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Harold: Oh, joy.

48:21

Harold: I'm wondering where would Matthew Broderick fit or would he fit into any of the characters of Peanuts?

48:27

Jimmy: Yeah, he could be Charlie Brown, I think. Jimmy: I absolutely think he could do the sad sack Charlie Brown.

48:32

Jimmy: If you see him on 30 Rock, he plays like a put-upon bureaucrat in the Bush administration who just wants pens, but he can't get any pens.

48:44

Jimmy: And it's really funny. Jimmy: I think I could hear that.

48:47

Jimmy: All right, so we got Matthew Broderick, Adam Scott, Ellie Kemper, James Earl Jones.

48:54

Jimmy: That's the cast. Harold: That's a good cast.

48:57

Jimmy: That's a good cast. Harold: Yeah, we can always bring Kristin Chenoweth back.

49:00

Harold: She did some really great voices.

49:03

Jimmy: Yeah, if you want to sob, watch her sing Happiness at Schulz's Memorial Service.

49:09

Jimmy: Oh. Jimmy: Really great. Jimmy: Beautiful.

49:12

Jimmy: And I also got one on the hotline.

49:16

Jimmy: Just found your pod. Jimmy: I'm loving it so far.

49:19

Jimmy: As an aspiring artist, I am always looking for insights to my chosen crafts.

49:23

Jimmy: Can you each recommend something, book, podcast, video to help me learn more of cartooning, and be of good cheer, Kashvi?

49:31

Harold: Good question. Harold: I have an oddball recommendation.

49:36

Harold: I don't know if you would get into this at all, but there was two books that came out in 1980 and 1983 by the same artist, and they're specifically about comic strip cartooning, and they're pretty much forgotten, and I find them to be an absolute hoot.

49:54

Harold: The Secrets of Professional Cartooning by Ken Muse.

49:56

Harold: Now, he was an animator, and he also had a comic strip called Way Out in the mid to late 60s, early 70s.

50:04

Harold: And particularly, I mean, get them as a set if you want to see somebody who was getting you into the nitty-gritty of how comic strips were done right now in this era of Peanuts.

50:16

Harold: But the second book in particular, after you read the first book, The Total Cartoonist, is absolutely hilarious because he puts all of these strips that he pulled together to submit to syndicates that were rejected.

50:28

Harold: And some of them are actually quite horrible.

50:33

Harold: You know, there's one, I remember, called Rudy Rude.

50:36

Harold: And Rudy Rude is basically the last panel.

50:42

Harold: He's always just yelling at somebody.

50:47

Harold: But he's a very talented cartoonist.

50:49

Harold: But I mean, those books just showing the struggle of a cartoonist trying to come up with the next hot, amazing strip that you could draw for years and years.

50:58

Harold: Going through those strips, I think, are a delight because he kind of shows you inside of his filing cabinet of stuff that didn't quite make it.

51:07

Jimmy: That's very fun. Jimmy: Michael, what about you?

51:10

Jimmy: Something to help them out as a cartoonist.

51:12

Jimmy: Any recommendations? Michael: Well, we had a guest a few months ago, a great cartoonist who's also a teacher.

51:21

Michael: And he's created a course where he has his students start with one panel strips.

51:30

Michael: And as the course progresses, they do more and more complex work.

51:35

Michael: And then they finally have to do a comic book story.

51:37

Michael: And this is Ivan Brunetti, who has really studied the art and has spent a lot of time learning how to teach it and how to break it down into some basic principles.

51:51

Michael: So I can't remember the name of... Jimmy: Cartooning, philosophy and practice.

51:55

Michael: Yes, Ivan Brunetti. Michael: And he was a great guest and nice guy.

52:00

Michael: And if I was going to do a strip, which I had no intention of doing, I would definitely study his little course.

52:08

Jimmy: It's a great pick. Jimmy: Yeah, I would add to that Mark Crilly, who was another guest of ours and has amazing YouTube videos.

52:16

Jimmy: It's just about drawing and he's an incredible draftsman that can draw in essentially any style.

52:21

Jimmy: So and he has a year's worth of videos that will keep you busy.

52:25

Jimmy: And of course, it has to be said, but Scott McCloud's understanding comics.

52:31

Harold: If you haven't read that and you're an aspiring cartoonist, it will be an eye opener for you.

52:37

Harold: We kind of take it for granted because it's been around for so long, but books that have been around for a long time often kind of fall by the wayside.

52:43

Harold: That one should not. Harold: It's absolutely inspiring.

52:46

Harold: It'll change the way you think of the possibilities of comics.

52:49

Harold: It's a masterpiece by Scott McCloud. Jimmy: Absolutely.

52:53

Jimmy: Yeah, and when you go into it, go into it assuming it's all right.

52:59

Jimmy: You could argue points of it later, but take it all in the first time, you know?

53:05

Jimmy: It's a brilliant, brilliant book by a brilliant guy.

53:09

Jimmy: All right, let's get back to the old strips.

53:13

Jimmy: February 29th. Jimmy: This becomes a long-running peanuts thing, the Tiny Tots concerts.

53:21

Jimmy: And Peppermint Patty and Marcie are attending one.

53:25

Jimmy: And Marcie is looking at the program and she says, this next piece is called Peter and the Wolf.

53:30

Jimmy: Peppermint Patty snaps her fingers to this. Jimmy: And Marcie says, don't snap your fingers, sir.

53:36

Jimmy: It isn't done at concerts like this. Jimmy: And Peppermint Patty says, what am I supposed to do?

53:41

Jimmy: And Marcie says, just sit still and listen to the music.

53:45

Jimmy: Peppermint Patty says, weird. Michael: It's kind of a call back to a strip.

53:52

Michael: I think it's late 50s where Lucy is kind of puzzled.

53:57

Michael: Listening to some music, she says, well, are you supposed to dance to this?

54:00

Michael: Are you supposed to like walk around, march around the room?

54:04

Michael: No, you're supposed to just listen.

54:07

Harold: Lots of nice spotting blacks here as well in this dark.

54:11

Harold: You really feel like you're in this theater with the two of them.

54:14

Harold: Did you guys ever experience this kind of children focused concert?

54:19

Harold: Was that ever a part of your life? Michael: No, this stuff was big to me, especially Peter and the Wolf.

54:25

Harold: Yeah. Harold: Yeah. Michael: And also the Leonard Bernstein shows, the TV shows that he did.

54:33

Michael: Well, explaining music for kids. Michael: Yeah.

54:35

Michael: I mean, to the point that I think I've mentioned this before, I was such a classical music fanatic as a kid.

54:41

Michael: I resented the Beatles doing Roll Over Beethoven.

54:45

Harold: I was like offended.

54:49

Harold: That is pretty strong language there.

54:52

Liz: It was my first major role was playing the duck and Peter and the Wolf.

54:59

Liz: It was first grade. Liz: Casey Paskins was the wolf.

55:04

Harold: Oh, that's great. Harold: I mean, the duck, I loved the duck.

55:07

Harold: Was it Sasha? Harold: Is that the name of the duck? Liz: I didn't have a name in 1960.

55:12

Harold: Oh, well, I'm thinking, I'm sorry, I'm thinking of the 1946 Make Mine Music segment.

55:17

Harold: Oh, of course. Harold: The animation.

55:20

Harold: And that's what I had. Harold: I had the album, Peter and the Wolf, and it was very influential for me because in the fourth grade in Rochester, New York, they had the Eastman School of Music.

55:30

Harold: It was very, very music oriented.

55:32

Harold: And they would have like, the crazy thing is they would have like the principal oboist from the symphony, would be the one teaching the fourth grader, who was learning oboe for the first time.

55:43

Harold: I had Mr. Harold: Woodworth, what a great name.

55:46

Harold: I'll never forget this because you actually had to take a test in order to get into the band.

55:52

Harold: And then you had to list your, I think it was your top two or choices for what instrument you wanted.

55:59

Harold: And I just listened to Peter and the Wolf. Harold: And being a cartoon fan and I'd seen, you know, we had the album with all the images for the characters and being a little kid, I was like, well, I like the duck.

56:11

Harold: So I put oboe as my first and oboe is a pretty rare instrument, especially for fourth graders, right?

56:16

Harold: There aren't a lot of fourth graders playing the oboe, but they did it in Rochester.

56:20

Harold: And I remember that the teacher called us out, those of us who had been accepted into the band.

56:27

Harold: We were in an old high school building where our elementary school was.

56:32

Harold: And they walked us to this beautiful, old, dark theater, very much like what we are getting the vibe of here in this peanut strip.

56:41

Harold: And we walked down, I remember it was dark, and you're coming in from the back, you know, going down.

56:46

Harold: And there were all of these teachers, mostly from the Eastman School of Music, all sitting there.

56:51

Harold: And you had to find the person who was going to teach you the instrument.

56:55

Harold: And I was like the only oboe there. Harold: So I got to meet Mr.

56:58

Harold: Woodworth. Harold: They were just coming down. Harold: He was lit at the bottom of the stage.

57:00

Harold: It just felt like this magical moment. Harold: And I wound up playing the oboe through the beginning of college.

57:07

Harold: So yeah, lots of fond memories of Peter and the Wolf.

57:10

Jimmy: Schulz also had a real connection to Peter and the Wolf because he was once asked to be the narrator for some concert somewhere.

57:19

Jimmy: And he talks about being very nervous because he doesn't speak.

57:21

Jimmy: He doesn't speak. Jimmy: He doesn't read music. Jimmy: So he had notes explaining.

57:25

Harold: Harpo Marx. Jimmy: Yeah.

57:29

Jimmy: So that's Peter and the Wolf. Jimmy: I don't know that I've ever experienced it.

57:43

Jimmy: March 10th. Jimmy: Linus and Lucy are hanging out at the thinking wall.

57:47

Jimmy: Lucy says to Linus, I don't understand heredity.

57:50

Jimmy: I thought about it a lot. Jimmy: Linus asks her, what is it that you don't understand?

57:54

Jimmy: And Lucy says, how come you got all the stupidity?

57:59

Jimmy: That's classic peanuts. Michael: It's classic peanuts, but does Lucy actually think she's smarter than Linus?

58:06

Harold: Oh, sure she does. Jimmy: Of course. Michael: Linus is a genius.

58:09

Michael: Yeah. Harold: Well, she's the older sister. Jimmy: Yeah, she absolutely does.

58:15

Jimmy: And by the way, she might be, you know.

58:18

Jimmy: That's possible.

58:22

Jimmy: It's a different type of brain she has, but I wouldn't put much faster.

58:28

Jimmy: March 11th, it's a Sunday. Jimmy: We see a symbolic panel, Peppermint Patty, and we see a little R pointing to one side of her head and an L pointing to the other side of her head, but they're reversed because, you know, it's a brain right and brain left, and we're looking at her.

58:44

Jimmy: Then panel two, she yawns and stretches.

58:48

Jimmy: She's in class, so she's obviously going to fall asleep.

58:51

Jimmy: And then the strip really starts. Jimmy: She is asleep, and she is asleep at her desk between Marcie and Franklin.

58:56

Jimmy: Marcie yells past her to Franklin, Hey, Franklin, did you read the chapters on left and right brains?

59:03

Jimmy: And she continues, I think I'm a left brain person.

59:06

Jimmy: I'm sort of analytical, and I like numbers and symbols.

59:10

Jimmy: Franklin says, I guess I'm a right brain person.

59:12

Jimmy: I'm good at jigsaw puzzles. Jimmy: I like music, and I think I have a pretty good imagination.

59:16

Jimmy: Good old Peppermint Patty is sleeping through all of this.

59:19

Jimmy: Then Marcie says, and then of course, we have the no brain person, and this wakes Peppermint Patty up, who in the last panel yells, I heard that.

59:33

Jimmy: I love the look on Franklin's face in the last panel.

59:37

Jimmy: That's just really great. Harold: I also love that Schulz is taking the opportunity to put Marcie's glasses on the top of her head so we can actually see her roll her eyes along with Franklin.

59:47

Jimmy: I love that little touch. Harold: The visual for those who are following along are willing to look it up on this March 11th strip that is fascinating to me.

59:57

Harold: Again, keep talking about how Schulz will go off model or do something that doesn't necessarily make a lot of anatomical sense because it just looks good is that second panel of Peppermint Patty yawning.

1:00:09

Harold: Look where her elbow is. Harold: I mean, she's got it's almost like the end of her sleeve is the beginning of her shoulder as he's drawn it.

1:00:18

Harold: You see this little arm that's that's bending because he needs to show it just has to be higher for it to look like a stretch.

1:00:25

Jimmy: But it's like a stretch and bending towards her head.

1:00:29

Harold: Right. Jimmy: So it's like he could have just drawn them straight out.

1:00:34

Jimmy: Right. Jimmy: Straight up as if she's like stretching fully.

1:00:38

Jimmy: But he's doing like a half stretch.

1:00:41

Harold: Well, there's this weird angle on the back of the arm as well that doesn't match where it would be in the sleeve.

1:00:48

Harold: It's a really interesting choice.

1:00:50

Harold: But you don't, you generally, if you're not really looking, looking at these strips, it reads beautifully.

1:00:56

Harold: But when you start looking at the anatomy, you're like, what is that?

1:01:01

Michael: I disagree. Michael: I think the upper part of the arm, the hand and the forearm are in perspective.

1:01:07

Jimmy: Yeah, that's what I think too. Jimmy: Yes. Harold: But look at that sleeve then should have a different line on the arm to show a little bit of curvature and we don't get it.

1:01:15

Jimmy: I think that too. Michael: You're both right.

1:01:18

Michael: Wishy-washy. Jimmy: Wishy-washy.

1:01:21

Jimmy: Hey, speaking of, I don't know what we're speaking of, but look at the trimmer on the desks in that second panel.

1:01:30

Jimmy: And I don't want this to be the podcast where we just point out where he's struggling with it.

1:01:35

Jimmy: But I do feel that it's worth drawing attention to sometimes because it's happening quickly.

1:01:41

Jimmy: And it's just when you have to make those long, long strokes.

1:01:47

Harold: And I do love that it's a record of how fast he worked with each line because that tremor is rhythmic.

1:01:55

Harold: It's consistent. Harold: But you look at the back of Marcie's shirt and you see how far he gets in a curve.

1:02:01

Harold: You see the faces. Harold: He will just make a commitment to draw the curve of the lines around the mouth and all of that.

1:02:09

Harold: And he's working super fast. Harold: And so it's interesting how that looks really clean.

1:02:14

Harold: And then everything else is kind of like we talked about before.

1:02:16

Harold: You focus usually on the face with a lot of these characters and their expressions.

1:02:22

Harold: And the fact that there's a tremor on the edges of the things that have straight lines and that sort of thing.

1:02:28

Harold: I don't know. Harold: It's interesting because it makes it also helps with that focus again.

1:02:33

Harold: You see the really clean lines and then the tremors are kind of off on the periphery.

1:02:37

Jimmy: It has to do also not with just speed, but how hard he's pressing.

1:02:43

Jimmy: You know, if you if you really root that pen and you can move at a fairly decent speed, even if you have a tremor, you're going to be able to mask it a lot of the time.

1:02:53

Jimmy: But when you have to do a big sweeping thing that goes, especially if something that either has to maintain a rigid thickness like desks, or if you're intentionally trying to go from a very thin to a very thick, like say the back of her head, those are the things you're going to have to slow down and adjust the pressure.

1:03:09

Jimmy: And that's when the tremors will show up. Harold: Interesting.

1:03:13

Jimmy: Just because I deal with it every day. Jimmy: March 12th.

1:03:18

Jimmy: Oh, this is just adorable to me. Jimmy: Lucy's out in the outfield and she blows a giant bubble bubblegum and she floats over the outfield fence.

1:03:28

Jimmy: And in the last panel, Charlie Brown looks out after her and says, when you're playing in the outfield, never blow bubblegum on a windy day.

1:03:36

Jimmy: We could actually kind of go ahead and read the next one too, because this is a little bit of a sequence of Lucy floating around in the wind.

1:03:42

Jimmy: Schroeder in his full catcher gear says to Charlie Brown, what happened to Lucy?

1:03:47

Jimmy: Charlie Brown says she was blowing bubblegum and the wind took her over the fence.

1:03:50

Jimmy: And now panel two we see she is still floating via the bubblegum over the fence.

1:03:56

Jimmy: Schroeder says, look, the wind changed. Jimmy: She's coming back.

1:04:00

Jimmy: And Schroeder says, she's your outfielder. Jimmy: Aren't you worried, Charlie Brown?

1:04:03

Jimmy: And Charlie Brown says, why? Jimmy: This is only a practice game.

1:04:08

Michael: Schulz has no problem with suspending the laws of physics occasionally.

1:04:14

Michael: Generally, it's pretty good. Michael: I mean, he worked out the little catapult with Snoopy in a logical fashion.

1:04:21

Michael: It might even work. Michael: We should try it on a dog sometime.

1:04:25

Michael: But here he just goes, OK, this is funny.

1:04:28

Michael: He must have just been sketching. Michael: And just went, well, OK, impossible.

1:04:34

Michael: This is not physics, but I'm going to do it.

1:04:37

Michael: And that's right. Michael: No, it works because it is very funny.

1:04:41

Jimmy: Yeah, I mean, I just love the weird little drawings of her floating around.

1:04:45

Jimmy: That's one of the cool things that we really should always, I think as cartoonists, focus on is that it's a funny drawing.

1:04:52

Jimmy: Like ultimately, so much of it comes down to that.

1:04:56

Jimmy: You hear a lot a lot of times, especially, I guess, in the comic book world, you'll you know, the story is the thing.

1:05:02

Jimmy: The story is the most if you don't. Jimmy: Why is that true?

1:05:06

Jimmy: I don't think that's necessarily true. Jimmy: I've read plenty of comics where I don't think the story is the best thing.

1:05:11

Jimmy: There's millions of reasons you can have something.

1:05:14

Jimmy: So I think something like this, is it a good joke?

1:05:17

Jimmy: I don't even know that is a really good joke. Jimmy: But even if it wasn't, it's just so funny because of the drawing.

1:05:25

Harold: That's what I love about comics. Harold: The visuals are shorthand.

1:05:30

Harold: This is something that Scott McCloud book shows really well in this famous triangle of abstract and iconic and realistic art.

1:05:38

Harold: It's like the words are closer to poetry because it's condensed in the comic strip and the pictures are very close to words because they're made of these little icons.

1:05:49

Harold: That's the magic of those two mixing and how an artist deals with that.

1:05:53

Harold: It's so hard to be a cartoonist and be able to do both of them well if you're doing both like Schulz is.

1:05:59

Harold: That's wonderful. Harold: It's not just the writing.

1:06:01

Harold: It's for a comic. Harold: The visuals aren't interesting.

1:06:05

Harold: You've chosen something like this that can go surreal or can do things that only comics can do.

1:06:11

Harold: I think that's wonderful. Harold: There's a sense of release and exhilaration seeing Lucy floating around.

1:06:18

Michael: Yeah. Michael: He stands out though because he does not do that all that often.

1:06:22

Harold: Right. Harold: Yeah. Harold: It makes it all the more special. Michael: Especially if it's...

1:06:25

Michael: I mean, he'll do it with Snoopy, in particular the helicopter stuff.

1:06:30

Michael: But a lot of strips, great strips, are talking heads and Doonesbury being a good example.

1:06:37

Michael: So, you didn't need to introduce fabulous graphics to...

1:06:43

Michael: I mean, you can, but you don't need to make a good...

1:06:46

Michael: Strip work. Jimmy: That's one of the things about it.

1:06:49

Jimmy: It's so hard to... Jimmy: When we get the question like that, like what can you learn as a cartoonist, or what can you look at?

1:06:58

Jimmy: It really is super subjective. Jimmy: Like you can learn music theory and know that if you go from a minor chord to a major chord, it'll have this effect.

1:07:07

Jimmy: And every time you do it, it'll have that kind of effect.

1:07:09

Jimmy: And there's scales and all the stuff you can learn.

1:07:13

Jimmy: Comics really just seem so subjective.

1:07:16

Jimmy: You're just winging it. Harold: Yeah. Harold: You think about if this strip had not existed or the sequence had not existed and another artist came in to do this sequence, I think we'd jump all over it.

1:07:30

Harold: That's not Peanuts. Harold: You can't do that. Harold: But Schulz was constantly breaking his own rules.

1:07:35

Harold: And because Schulz, as you say, he's a character in the strip.

1:07:40

Harold: Somehow his choices make sense because they're his choices.

1:07:44

Jimmy: Yep. Jimmy: March 29th, Lucy comes up to Linus, who's sitting in the bean bag watching TV.

1:07:50

Jimmy: She says to him, By the time I've grown up, we'll probably have a woman president.

1:07:55

Jimmy: You know what that means, don't you? Jimmy: Linus makes no response.

1:07:58

Jimmy: Lucy says, It means I won't get to be the first one.

1:08:01

Jimmy: And then Lucy screams, Boy, that makes me mad.

1:08:05

Harold: Sending Linus flying. Jimmy: I just picked this because sadly Lucy still has a shot.

1:08:11

Jimmy: Yep. Harold: Yeah, well, she'd be about 49 if this isn't about nine in 1984.

1:08:16

Harold: She could do it. Jimmy: I'd give her a shot.

1:08:20

Liz: I'd vote for her. Michael: But I really think this punchline is not great.

1:08:26

Michael: And usually he's he's absolutely perfect on the wording of the punchline.

1:08:31

Michael: For some reason, I think you could come up with a better one.

1:08:35

Harold: Probably doesn't have enough nuance to it.

1:08:38

Harold: Yeah, I don't mind it. Jimmy: Yeah, I don't mind it either.

1:08:42

Jimmy: But but I understand what you're saying. Jimmy: That's definitely his first thought.

1:08:46

Jimmy: And of course, we're thinking it could be deadline things, too, because he's always advocating go for the second, third, fourth thought.

1:08:53

Jimmy: This this does feel a little bit like a first thought.

1:08:56

Jimmy: But maybe first thought, best thought in some instances.

1:08:59

Harold: Yeah. Harold: And we were talking to Michael.

1:09:01

Harold: We were talking about that third panel with the black on one side of the head and the white on the other.

1:09:06

Harold: And he does it here in that third panel again. Harold: So it's a good look.

1:09:10

Harold: He's spotting those blacks. Jimmy: He has definitely made that part of his arsenal, it feels like, to be called upon when needed.

1:09:18

Jimmy: Well, guys, we have talked a lot.

1:09:22

Jimmy: I think let's take a break right here and then we'll come back next week and finish up 1984.

1:09:30

Jimmy: So if you characters want to follow along, keep the conversation going between now and then, there's a couple ways you can do it.

1:09:36

Jimmy: The first thing you can go to the good old Unpacking Peanuts website, sign up for that newsletter and we'll get it to you once a month telling you what strips we're going to be covering in the upcoming episodes.

1:09:48

Jimmy: You can also just email us. Jimmy: We are unpackingpeanuts at gmail.com and you can follow us on Blue Sky Facebook and YouTube.

1:09:58

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1:10:04

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1:10:06

Jimmy: You can also call the hotline. Jimmy: I know that people don't like to call anymore.

1:10:11

Jimmy: You like to text. Jimmy: So if you're going to text, you can.

1:10:14

Jimmy: Please identify yourself. Jimmy: And two, you can just call and leave a message as well because I'd love to hear from you.

1:10:19

Jimmy: And that number is 717-219-4162.

1:10:25

Jimmy: So yeah, so come back next week. Jimmy: We would love to hang out with you again.

1:10:28

Jimmy: As always, this is just my favorite day of the week. Jimmy: I love hanging out with my friends and talking about my favorite thing in the world, comics and my favorite strip in the world, Peanuts.

1:10:36

Jimmy: So please come back next week. Jimmy: We'll talk to you then for Michael, Harold and Liz.

1:10:40

Jimmy: This is Jimmy saying, be of good cheer. Michael: Yes, be of good cheer.

1:10:45

Liz: Unpacking Peanuts is copyrighted by Jimmy Gownley, Michael Cohen and Harold Buchholz.

1:10:51

Liz: Produced and edited by Liz Sumner. Liz: Music by Michael Cohen.

1:10:55

Liz: Additional voiceover by Aziza Shukralla Clark.

1:10:58

Liz: For more from the show, follow Unpack Peanuts on Instagram and threads.

1:11:02

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1:11:06

Liz: For more about Jimmy, Michael and Harold, visit unpackingpeanuts.com.

1:11:11

Liz: Have a wonderful day and thanks for listening.

1:11:14

Liz: Yes!