0:11

You are listening to the War on

0:13

the Rocks podcast, covering strategy, defense, and

0:15

foreign affairs. My name

0:17

is Nick Danforth, editor and host

0:20

of today's show. Delighted

0:22

to be here at the Moldovan Embassy

0:24

off Connecticut Avenue with Ambassador

0:27

Vira Ursu, who is

0:29

kind enough to sit down and discuss

0:31

the impact of the war in Ukraine,

0:33

as well as Moldova's evolving security situation

0:36

and the European security architecture writ large.

0:39

Ambassador Ursu, thank you for joining us. Thank

0:42

you for having me and bringing the spotlight

0:44

for my country, Moldovan. We

0:46

have a number of questions to ask

0:48

you. The first that I'll start out

0:51

with, every time I talk to any

0:53

of your colleagues, anytime the spotlight, at

0:55

least at War on the Rocks, has

0:57

shown on Moldova, I'm always struck by

0:59

the extent to which Moldova has been

1:01

impacted by the conflict in Ukraine,

1:04

more than many of us looking

1:06

at this from Washington might expect. So

1:09

could you begin by giving us a little bit of

1:11

an overview of what that impact has been? The

1:14

Russian aggression against Ukraine

1:17

changed dramatically the regional

1:19

context, and Moldova was

1:23

one of the countries probably most

1:25

affected by the war in Ukraine.

1:28

Moldova shares the longest border with

1:30

Ukraine of all the neighboring countries.

1:33

And since the day one of

1:35

the Russian aggression, the Moldovan

1:38

government took the decision to keep

1:40

the borders open and

1:42

to allow any Ukrainians that

1:45

were seeking shelter to cross the

1:47

border. Since then,

1:50

Moldova hosted about a million

1:52

of Ukrainian refugees. Some

1:54

of them moved further to Europe,

1:56

and some of them decided to

1:58

stay in Moldova. Currently,

2:01

we host about 116,000 of

2:05

Ukrainian refugees, and these are mostly

2:07

women and children.

2:09

The other, I think, huge impact

2:12

was on the economy, because

2:15

especially at closing of the Odia support,

2:17

which was one of the biggest, had

2:20

a big role in our supply chains.

2:23

Again, we have to reinvent and find for

2:25

new ways. Russia

2:27

has also intensified

2:29

the hybrid attacks,

2:31

or hybrid war,

2:34

against Moldova, as it did against other

2:36

countries. And I suspect we'll be talking

2:38

a lot about that. Yeah, so again,

2:41

we had to deal with an energy crisis,

2:43

which was provoked by Russia,

2:46

which had

2:48

an effect on the

2:51

economy. We had

2:53

a huge inflation of 36%, and

2:56

we had to find new energy

2:58

resources. So

3:00

again, that created an energy

3:03

crisis, which hopefully we

3:06

found a way to overcome. I

3:09

was going to say, now two years on, it

3:11

sounds like Moldova has been very successful in restructuring

3:14

its energy supplies. Yeah,

3:16

I think Moldova government

3:18

was realized that

3:23

we should not waste any

3:25

crisis and turn

3:27

the crisis into opportunities. I

3:30

just mentioned the energy crisis. Russia

3:33

always used, when it has

3:35

a leverage against other countries,

3:37

including Moldova. So when the

3:40

winter was approaching, we're talking about 2022, despite of us

3:42

having a long-term

3:47

gas supply contract with Russia, and

3:49

we're paying the bills, on

3:51

the 1st of December, it cut the gas

3:54

supply by 50%, and it

3:56

was waiting for the

3:58

winter to come. The

4:00

oil was 100% dependent on

4:03

energy supplies from Russia for

4:05

heating our public and private

4:07

households, including for producing

4:10

electricity. So that

4:12

was a matter of time when Russia is going

4:15

to use that leverage. Again,

4:17

with the support of our partners,

4:19

including European and the

4:21

US, we managed to find alternative

4:23

supplies of gas in a matter

4:25

of weeks and months.

4:28

We turned around, we found

4:31

new supplies from Europe. We are

4:33

not paying anything to Russia for

4:35

the gas. And

4:38

we are happy with the new

4:40

supplies of gas, mostly from Europe.

4:42

We also changed the way we

4:44

are buying

4:46

the energy resources. So nowadays we

4:48

buy gas in the summer for

4:51

the winter. For the

4:53

first time this winter, we got

4:55

enough reserves, which we keep in

4:58

Ukraine, to go through the winter,

5:00

which allows us also to lower the prices.

5:03

When Russia cut the gas supplies, unfortunately

5:06

we had to buy very expensive

5:08

gas on spot markets. That

5:11

would trigger the sevenfold

5:13

increase of energy for

5:16

private consumers. But

5:19

this summer, I mean last summer, we

5:21

were able to pry gas

5:23

on the European markets at

5:25

lower prices than what would

5:27

have been paying to Russian

5:30

gas problems. In the winter

5:32

passed without incident. And this

5:34

winter we were probably

5:36

the most prepared. We

5:38

had enough, as I mentioned, reserves. And

5:42

the prices, we just decreased the prices for

5:44

gas. But we still provide

5:47

subsidies for the most

5:49

vulnerable on the energy

5:51

prices through the winter

5:53

for the heating system. But hopefully

5:55

in time that will go down.

5:58

And then moving to the other side. other challenges that

6:00

have come with the conflict. Moldova

6:03

was dealing with Russian interference well

6:05

before the invasion of Ukraine. There

6:07

were fears, obviously, that the situation

6:10

in Transnistria would intensify with the

6:12

beginning of the war. We've

6:14

seen continued concern just in

6:17

the last weeks. Can you

6:19

give us a sense, give us a

6:21

background on that and then tell us

6:23

how concerned Moldova is now about possible

6:26

intensified Russian interference in Transnistria?

6:29

The Transnistrian

6:33

region and the recent developments

6:35

in that region has to

6:37

be seen in a much

6:39

bigger picture of Russian

6:41

hybrid attacks against Moldova or hybrid war

6:43

against Moldova and there are many elements

6:46

of that. All right, let's see, give

6:48

us the bigger picture then, please. And

6:50

I know the concept of hybrid war

6:52

might be a bit abstract but the

6:55

way how it is felt in Moldova

6:58

is a classical element from

7:00

a textbook of the Soviet

7:02

Union and now Russian interference

7:05

which is a combination of weaponizing

7:07

energy, the situation I just explained,

7:09

contact the energy

7:12

supplies. Most recently,

7:14

Russia also introduced trade embargo against

7:16

some of our real

7:19

experts of vegetable and fruits

7:22

and again with the aim, the

7:25

aim is to provoke some

7:27

extra costs for the country, in

7:29

this case Moldova, and

7:32

to provoke a genuine discontent

7:35

of the population against the government,

7:37

either with the farmers when you

7:39

do a trade embargo or

7:42

of the consumers, private consumer of

7:44

energy who just cannot afford to

7:46

pay the energy bills. In

7:48

the longer term, and that was Russian

7:50

plan, last winter you

7:52

provoked those kind of sometimes

7:55

genuine protests. If

7:57

the government is not able to cope... with

8:01

the discontent. What Russia

8:03

did is then infiltrating

8:06

among the protests, peaceful protests,

8:08

some of the violent elements

8:10

in order to provoke the

8:12

police or law enforcement to

8:14

overreact and in this

8:17

way to create more instability,

8:19

insecurity and in the end

8:21

even try to topple down

8:23

the government. I think that was the plan

8:25

last year. It

8:28

didn't realize to the end

8:30

just because of the good

8:33

cooperation and intelligence sharing between

8:36

our law enforcement that

8:39

made those plans public

8:42

including the

8:44

planned Russian training, some of those

8:47

violent protests in

8:49

Turkey who bringing

8:52

the spotlight on

8:54

this plan and acting preventively

8:58

is actually what prevented

9:00

the worst scenario happening in Moldova and

9:02

that would have been an

9:05

attempt. So that's

9:07

another element in the

9:10

toolbox. I think we might see more

9:13

of those provocations especially this year

9:15

as we are getting closer to

9:17

the presidential

9:19

election later this year and

9:21

the referendum on EU integration

9:24

and next summer we'll have

9:26

parliamentary elections and this is

9:28

what Russia is betting on.

9:31

Corruption is another big a

9:35

tool in the Russian hybrid

9:37

toolbox. Russia has

9:40

been always interested

9:42

in keeping corrupt elites

9:45

governing the countries especially in

9:47

its closest neighborhood.

9:51

Corrupt elites are useful because

9:53

you can blackmail, you can

9:55

use the leverage against them

9:57

to force them and make them

10:01

And unfortunately Moldova was not

10:03

an exception. We saw Moldova's former

10:05

president has been arrested for bribery,

10:08

is that? Moldova and former president

10:10

is currently under investigation. His case

10:13

is now in the courts and

10:15

the courts will have to decide

10:18

on the case. But yeah, there

10:21

is evidence and recording

10:23

of the former president

10:25

taking bribes and

10:28

funding for his political

10:30

parties. This is

10:32

another tool in the hybrid

10:34

war funding illegal

10:37

political forces that

10:39

Russia has been used extensively and

10:41

continue to use. Most

10:44

recently was elections last

10:46

year in Gagauzia region,

10:49

it's a region of the

10:51

south of Moldova, but also

10:53

local elections in November where we've

10:55

seen millions and millions

10:58

of cash coming into Moldova

11:00

to fund some of those

11:02

political actors. So to zoom

11:04

in, I still want to get back to

11:06

Transnistria, but the Gagauzia situation is fascinating.

11:09

I come at this as someone I

11:11

spend a lot of time living in Turkey. There's obviously been

11:14

great interest in Turkey about the situation

11:16

there. Tell us what's going

11:18

on in Gagauzia. Yeah,

11:20

maybe for listeners who can't find

11:22

Gagauzia on the map. Gagauzia

11:26

is an autonomous region

11:28

in the south of Moldova. It's

11:31

relatively small. It's

11:33

probably less than 150,000 population. Gagauzia

11:37

of Turkish ethnicity,

11:40

except that they are Orthodox, so

11:42

they came to live, to settle

11:45

on the territory of what is

11:47

now Republic of Moldova in

11:49

19th century. And they

11:52

speak Gagauzia, which is very close

11:54

to Turkish language. However, during the

11:56

Soviet time, they've been very

11:58

much crucified. You know, them have

12:01

still speak Russian as their

12:03

first language. In

12:06

early days of our independence, central

12:09

government granted autonomy to

12:11

the Gagovuz region. So

12:14

they have a local parliament, a

12:16

local leader called Bashkan,

12:19

and they had their own election cycles.

12:21

And Russia has been,

12:24

again, because of the most

12:26

of the population is very

12:29

much crucified and it

12:31

has been always having a

12:33

pro-Russian position. Russia of

12:35

course has been using them

12:39

to promote its own agenda. The

12:42

easiest tool, and again, I come back to

12:44

the hybrid war

12:46

tools, information

12:48

space, disinformation, this

12:52

is a very efficient

12:55

tool that Russia has

12:58

been using, especially in Moldova

13:00

where still majority of

13:02

the population still understand and

13:04

speak Russian and thus

13:06

follow Russian medium. So in

13:09

Gagovuz last year's election, I think

13:12

Russia tested the

13:15

new grounds of interference. Again,

13:18

it's using proxy actors.

13:21

In Gagovuz's case, it was one

13:23

of the Moldovan fugitive oligarchs. His

13:26

name is Elon Shore. He has

13:29

been convicted for Moldova for high

13:31

corruption, but he managed to escape

13:33

and is now living in Israel,

13:35

awaiting his extradition. In

13:37

the meantime, he still is very

13:39

active in Moldovan

13:42

political scene, though

13:44

his party is being banned. He

13:46

managed to find an

13:50

unknown personality in Gagovuz and just in

13:52

a few weeks managed

13:54

to convince enough people to vote

13:56

for her to become Bashkan. Again,

14:00

There is a lot of evidence

14:02

in the public sphere about the

14:04

illegal funding or that political campaign.

14:07

The prosecutor's office has been conducting an

14:09

investigation. They just announced that they are

14:11

ready to send that case against

14:14

the elected bashkan to the

14:16

courts and the courts will

14:18

decide if there is

14:21

enough evidence of illegal funding of

14:23

political parties. Again, just to

14:25

remind because the Gaguz is such a

14:27

small area, the bashkan,

14:31

her name is Gudsoo, she was able to

14:33

be elected just with 27,000

14:35

votes. But

14:39

I think Russia was quite inspired

14:41

by the success of

14:44

spending a few millions, which is not

14:46

a lot of cash for Russia and

14:48

being able to convince

14:50

enough voters to elect one

14:53

of their proxies to

14:56

lead the region. It also

14:58

tested the same techniques

15:01

in the local election that

15:03

followed in November last year.

15:06

That time what we

15:08

observe, Russia's smartly has

15:11

started also pouring cash, not

15:14

just into openly pro-Russian

15:16

political forces, but

15:19

also some of the fake pro-European

15:21

forces. And

15:23

this is very difficult for a

15:25

democratic country and a democratic government.

15:28

We tell us more about that because the second part of

15:30

what you're saying is not something we're as familiar with. Just

15:33

because some of those, as I

15:35

mentioned, shore party, which was represented

15:38

in the most relevant

15:40

parliament because of

15:42

the conviction of its leader for high

15:44

corruption and also for

15:46

illegal funding of the party,

15:48

the Constitutional Court last

15:51

year banned the shore

15:53

party. And

15:55

in order to prevent for

15:59

authority, banning some

16:01

of those illegally funded

16:03

political parties, Russia

16:05

has been diversifying its strategy

16:08

and rather they're putting all the eggs

16:10

into one single basket is

16:13

now being funding different political

16:15

parties in Moldova. So

16:17

let me ask again more big picture one

16:19

of the things that's come out of a

16:21

lot of discussions about Russian meddling in the

16:23

United States I

16:26

think is a consensus that whatever

16:28

nefarious plans Russia has they're more

16:30

successful when they find fertile ground

16:32

when they play on real discontent

16:34

amongst voters. What from

16:36

the Moldovan government's perspective is

16:39

the approach to dealing with the broader

16:43

context in which Russian interference is

16:46

potentially successful? How do you strengthen Moldovan

16:49

democracy? How do you build a I

16:52

guess now whole of society is the

16:54

term approach to standing up

16:56

to this? I

16:59

think what we you know different

17:01

crises as I mentioned that Moldova

17:03

has to deal as an effect

17:05

as in consequences of the Ukrainian

17:08

war we pass

17:10

the most acute period

17:12

of that and the

17:14

war also changed Europe

17:17

it didn't change as Moldova but

17:19

Europe is becoming more united and

17:22

as you follow the news

17:24

we did have very positive

17:28

developments on European

17:31

Union leaders finally agreeing

17:34

that EU should continue expanding

17:37

because that's the only project

17:39

of peace in Europe and

17:42

that's Ukraine and Moldova became

17:44

candidate countries just a

17:46

few months after the start of the war and last

17:49

December agreed to

17:51

open negotiations for

17:53

accession of Ukraine and Moldova to

17:56

the European Union this gives us

17:58

a very positive agenda of transformation

18:01

and the population is

18:07

that's the ambition for Ukraine

18:10

and Moldova to

18:12

join the European Union. It sounds like

18:14

a long perspective but

18:16

European Union requires

18:19

quite dramatic transformation

18:22

of the economy or the way

18:24

how you operate and

18:26

seven years would be still a record

18:29

for any other countries accession.

18:32

On the defense side, I'm eager to

18:34

hear more about Moldova's relationship with NATO

18:37

and then the new security pact that

18:39

Moldova just signed with France. Yeah, as

18:41

you know, Moldova is a neutral country

18:44

according to our constitution. That's

18:47

why we are big supporters of

18:49

Ukraine because Ukrainian army is not

18:51

defending just its own territory but

18:54

also Moldova. However, because of our

18:56

neutrality, of course, we do not

18:58

provide any military support to Ukraine

19:01

but we are happy to host

19:03

our guests from Ukraine that seek

19:06

shelter. We are providing the solidarity

19:08

lane to Ukraine to help with

19:10

the Ukrainian experts, especially

19:13

on grain and we also

19:15

provide other humanitarian assistance to Ukraine.

19:18

On the defense, again,

19:21

the invasion of

19:24

Russian of eastern regions of Ukraine was

19:26

a big wake-up call for us. As

19:29

it is stated even in our

19:31

national security strategy,

19:33

we realized that the

19:35

initial tensions of

19:38

Russia was to capture Ukraine

19:40

including Kiev and Odessa

19:43

in a matter of, if not

19:45

days, weeks. That would

19:47

have been a great

19:50

threat to Moldova finding itself

19:52

with Russian troops on our

19:54

border. Our

19:57

strategy event called Russia as the

19:59

main threat, existential

20:01

threat, not just

20:03

to our democracy and prosperity,

20:05

but it's an existential threat

20:07

to Moldova. And

20:10

the new security strategy,

20:13

which was adopted just in

20:15

December, states those threats

20:17

and where how to overcome.

20:21

Because of our neutrality, we are not

20:23

seeking NATO membership the way Ukraine or

20:25

Georgia are. However,

20:28

I think it will make us much

20:30

feel much more safer if

20:33

both of our neighbors, Romania

20:35

and Ukraine, were to be

20:37

members of NATO. In

20:39

the meantime, we realize

20:41

that we have been underfunding,

20:45

under-investing in our own defense

20:48

and security. And

20:51

we are just starting

20:53

a conversation with people

20:56

among the population how

20:58

to guarantee our security

21:01

if we are not allowed to be a

21:03

member of any military alliance. Again,

21:06

Russia is playing that card

21:08

in its disinformation war and

21:12

has been promoting

21:15

since our independence the

21:17

idea, which is

21:19

very much instilled in the

21:21

understanding of Moldovan

21:23

that neutrality means that neutral countries

21:26

cannot have and should not have

21:28

army to defend itself. And

21:32

this is wrong. I

21:35

think that's the conversation to have. I

21:37

think neutral countries have even

21:39

a bigger duty, and governments of

21:41

those countries have a bigger duty

21:43

to protect and invest more in

21:45

their defense, which are only starting

21:47

to do now. It

21:50

strikes me in the course of this

21:52

conversation, other conversations I've had with Moldovan

21:54

colleagues, so much of the conversation about

21:56

the Russian threat to Moldova in D.C.,

21:59

at focused on the

22:01

situation in Transnistria. It doesn't

22:03

seem like it's as much of a focus for

22:05

people in Moldova. I think with

22:07

your colleague in a podcast, we just did

22:09

said that Chishno was actually pretty chill about

22:12

the situation. Just explain

22:14

why that is, what the possible

22:16

misperception is here. I

22:18

think the actions of Transnistrian

22:21

so-called leaders are

22:23

not independent actions. So

22:25

again, we see them as

22:28

the action by Kremlin to

22:31

provoke certain reactions

22:33

and hoping to provoke

22:35

overreaction of the Moldovan

22:37

government. I think that's why we are

22:40

so chill. But

22:43

still, of course, we pay attention to what's

22:45

happening. And

22:47

again, the plan, especially for

22:50

this year for Russia, is

22:52

to provoke as much instability

22:54

in the country to make

22:57

people feel unsafe, unsecure. So

23:00

in order to influence their

23:02

vote in the referendum that

23:04

we're going to have in

23:06

late October for European integration.

23:09

Again, this information works in the

23:11

way saying that countries

23:13

like Moldova, neutral small country

23:16

should not take position

23:18

in a big game. Even

23:21

Russia has been communicating

23:23

that even Ukraine is just the

23:26

subject of a war. It's just

23:28

an object of a bigger game.

23:30

And unfortunately, that's

23:32

what we hear Moldova from some of

23:34

the political opponents saying, you know, Moldova

23:38

should not invest in its own

23:40

defense and security. It's enough to

23:42

have a neutrality clause. And

23:48

then coming back to

23:50

the Transnistrian, again, the

23:53

most recent events, when

23:56

the leadership of

23:58

that region called on

24:01

some additional aid from Russia.

24:03

It was more linked to

24:05

the huge

24:08

impact that the war in

24:10

Ukraine has on the region itself. The

24:12

region was a black

24:14

hole for a lot of the

24:17

illegal activities.

24:19

I mean, smuggling was

24:21

the easiest one. But

24:23

for Russia, it was very useful to

24:26

have a region which is not

24:28

controlled by any international actors

24:31

to, you know, for

24:33

all kind of illegal activities. To

24:36

be honest, many of

24:38

the Moldovan corrupt businesses,

24:42

Ukrainian corrupt also benefited from

24:44

having that kind of a

24:46

gray zone. What the war

24:48

in Ukraine changed is

24:50

that Odessa port

24:53

has not been operating for a very

24:56

long time. Transnary Interim Division has been

24:58

dependent on some of

25:00

its experts through Odessa. And

25:03

since the war, all the experts

25:05

and input to and

25:07

from the region go through

25:10

the territory controlled by the

25:12

Moldovan government. So for

25:14

the first time, we can

25:17

actually see what's going in and going out.

25:20

So the corrupt pro-Russian elite

25:22

was actually negatively impacted by

25:24

Russia's including? Yes, because most

25:26

of the big businesses from

25:29

the region has been ceded

25:32

to Russian oligarchs, which is

25:34

also controlled by Kremlin. And

25:37

that makes them very uncomfortable.

25:39

The statistics online, the Transnary

25:41

Interim Division has

25:44

been trading and benefiting a lot

25:46

from the Moldovan free

25:48

trade agreement with the EU. 70% of

25:52

experts from the Transnary Interim Division goes to

25:54

the EU. And a

25:56

lot of imports also come from the EU. And

26:00

we want the government

26:02

to remain committed for a

26:04

peaceful, gradual integration

26:06

of the region in

26:09

Moldova, economic integration, and

26:11

this is what is happening now.

26:14

The reaction, the recent reaction of

26:17

the forages in the region was

26:19

to one of the decision of

26:21

the Moldovan government to

26:24

have a unified approach on

26:27

the way how the experts

26:29

of all the companies in

26:32

Moldova are being processed to

26:35

the EU, which impose

26:37

certain fees on

26:40

the Transnistrian region experts at the

26:42

same level as all the other

26:44

fees for the Moldovan

26:47

producers. The call

26:50

was mainly for

26:52

diplomatic support from Russia,

26:55

means that again these are not

26:57

the new calls. Transnistrian

26:59

region organized or either

27:01

several so-called referendums that

27:03

were not recognized by

27:06

any other countries, including

27:08

by Russia. So

27:10

these calls were not very new and

27:12

that's why we didn't feel that we

27:14

had to react. I

27:16

think what the Transnistrian region should

27:18

really panic, and I'm surprised they

27:21

don't, is

27:23

that most probably at

27:25

the end of this year Russia

27:28

won't be able to supply

27:30

the region with gas.

27:35

And that gas is essential, was

27:38

essential, has been essential for

27:41

the business model of

27:44

survival of Transnistrian region.

27:47

We'll look forward to talking to you about how

27:49

that plays out when the time comes. In the

27:51

meantime, since we're nearing the end of our time,

27:54

I feel like I would be remiss if I

27:56

did not ask you what your perspective

27:58

being here in Washington is. on the

28:01

conversation about Ukraine, on the conversation about

28:03

European defense that we're having here in

28:05

the United States. I think

28:07

the war in Ukraine showed the failure

28:10

of some of those

28:12

global and regional security

28:15

actors and infrastructure that

28:18

was supposed to provide that sense

28:20

of security for countries like

28:22

Moldova, and I'm talking about

28:25

the UN, the OEC, even

28:28

the Council of Europe, organizations that

28:30

were meant to prevent this happening

28:32

and it didn't. Even

28:35

for us we also realized

28:37

that bilateral or multilateral guarantees

28:40

of security are not

28:43

worth the paper, and I'm talking

28:45

here Budapest Memorandum, and in

28:48

our case enshrining a neutrality clause

28:50

in the Constitution that is not

28:53

even guaranteed or acknowledged by

28:55

any country is

28:57

also not enough to provide

28:59

that security. However,

29:02

what I see is

29:06

the new reflection in Europe

29:08

about that infrastructure and how

29:11

it could be done. NATO

29:13

also found their own, a

29:15

new rezone, and following

29:17

the conversation within NATO

29:21

focusing on building their

29:23

own capacity. I

29:26

hope that way forward and

29:28

again we would be happy to

29:31

see both of our neighbors being member

29:33

of NATO and hopefully that will provide

29:35

for us about the

29:37

security. However, I think

29:39

the main actor that I think

29:43

will need

29:46

to boost that security and

29:48

defense cooperation is the European Union.

29:50

And I already see already those

29:52

signs happening. This is

29:54

becoming one of the main topic also

29:57

for the European Parliament elections which

29:59

are coming and in June there

30:01

are some new proposals about how

30:03

to increase the cooperation, especially on

30:06

the industry

30:08

policy, which is related to

30:11

again producing more of the

30:14

weapons and military equipment

30:16

that Europe needs and

30:18

better cooperation on common defence,

30:21

and security policy from

30:23

the EU, and hopefully having

30:26

closer cooperation between the EU and

30:28

NATO will also provide that security.

30:30

So that's where my hope is. When

30:33

it comes to our region, where

30:37

we would like to

30:39

see more of the

30:41

US involvement is actually

30:45

in the Black Sea. It's been a blind

30:48

spot for, I

30:50

think, for US foreign policy

30:54

for a while. Now

30:56

that we saw the issue of the

30:58

Baltic states with the exception of Finland

31:00

and Sweden to NATO, I

31:02

would really want the US to pay

31:05

more attention to the Black Sea. With

31:08

the perspective that Black Sea might

31:10

also have most of these countries

31:13

surrounding NATO members at one day.

31:15

And I'm really

31:18

encouraged by the recent congress

31:21

approval of the Black Sea

31:23

security strategy. And we are

31:26

looking forward, which kind of

31:28

put to the task the

31:31

Biden administration to come

31:33

up with a comprehensive strategy in

31:36

June. So I'm really looking forward to

31:38

that. But what we would like

31:40

to see is to have a comprehensive approach to

31:43

strategy. It's not just

31:45

the heart, security and

31:47

defence. These are the issues

31:49

I mentioned. This is about energy, is

31:53

about economic development, prosperity, because

31:55

these are the weaknesses

31:58

and the spots that Russia will

32:00

use and abuse and

32:03

hopefully the US will take this

32:06

role and involvement in the region more

32:08

seriously. And again, this is

32:10

something those of us who focus on Turkey have

32:13

strong feelings about, but rather

32:15

than get into those, I want to shift

32:17

focus for a minute. We're sitting

32:19

here next to a shelf full of

32:21

Moldovan wine. Before you came

32:23

in, I was flipping through a book about the

32:25

top 50 wines of Moldova. Tell

32:28

us a little bit about the Moldovan wine industry, where

32:31

folks in the United States can find Moldovan wines,

32:33

which ones you might recommend. The

32:35

Moldovan wines are one of

32:37

our biggest export

32:40

products. Per capita, we

32:42

produce more wine than

32:44

any other country. I'm

32:46

not sure about consuming, but

32:48

definitely on the production. So every

32:50

family almost producing their own wines,

32:53

including my family. The

32:56

wines also has an

32:58

interesting history of a

33:00

crisis turned into opportunity

33:03

and success. After

33:05

the Russian invasion of Georgia, and

33:07

again, when Moldova sided with Georgia,

33:10

Russia introduced trade embargo against both

33:12

Georgian wines and Moldovan wine.

33:15

At that time, we were exporting

33:17

about 90% of our wines to Russia. So

33:21

a lot of our export

33:23

revenues were coming from Russian

33:25

market, which Russia used as

33:27

a leverage. Many

33:30

of our farmers and wine makers suffered.

33:32

Many jobs were lost, and

33:34

that was part of the same

33:36

hybrid war attacks, is

33:38

to use that discontent of

33:41

the population to translate into

33:43

the votes for pro-Russian political

33:45

parties. But this is

33:47

where the friends really helped us. The

33:50

need that friends indeed. And

33:52

US was one of the

33:54

first to really help us through USAID

33:57

to help our wine makers to produce

33:59

a very... different quality of wines.

34:02

Just to tell you, Russian tastes and

34:04

European tastes of wine are very different.

34:07

Russian-like prefer sweeter wines and

34:09

higher in alcohol and they

34:11

would drink anything. So the quality of

34:13

our wines at that time was not

34:15

great. I was not a big consumer

34:17

model than wine at that time. European

34:21

have a more refined taste of

34:24

wines, it's drier and

34:27

with the USAID help, we really

34:30

invested into new technology and

34:32

a new wine varieties and

34:36

we managed to turn around and

34:38

nowadays we export over 90%

34:40

of our wines to European

34:42

markets. So Russian bars is

34:45

the worst gain. Exactly, it's

34:47

a win-win and

34:49

again, this allows you to

34:51

sell. The consumer is

34:53

also in the win because it's a better

34:55

quality of wines but we also sell at

34:57

a better price and higher profits. And

35:00

Russia realizes that they can only

35:02

use leverage once and yes,

35:04

it's going to cause some pain but

35:07

you can turn that crisis into opportunity

35:09

and reinvent yourself. And this is what

35:11

we've done with our Moldovan wines and

35:13

I'm a big consumer of

35:15

Moldovan wines. I think we have great

35:18

wines, we have big names now and

35:21

you can find them in the US. The

35:23

US the problem is a very separated

35:27

market from state to state when it

35:29

comes. So even in

35:31

the DMV area, you have different

35:34

lices in the DC area, Maryland

35:36

and Virginia but you can still

35:38

then find them in total wines

35:40

and in other shops. But I

35:43

was surprised also to find so much

35:45

of the Moldovan sparkling wine which we

35:47

used to call champagne. You said the

35:49

Moldovan was the main champagne producer for

35:51

the Soviet Union. We were and we're

35:53

still big producers of those sparkling wines

35:55

which would stop calling them champagne but

35:57

the quality is still the champagne. But

36:01

you can find them a lot in

36:04

the industry area, in bars and restaurants.

36:06

I was quite surprised and impressed. It

36:09

means that also the American consumers

36:11

appreciate them. Our listeners now know

36:14

what they can do if they want to help

36:16

fight Russian hybrid warfare here at home. Thank

36:19

you, Mr. Ambassador, for joining us for this conversation. Thank

36:21

you so much. Thank

36:24

you for listening to the War on the Rocks podcast. Please

36:27

don't forget to check out

36:29

our membership program at www.warontherocks.com,

36:31

fact slash membership. You'll

36:33

get Mike Kaufman talking about the war

36:36

in Ukraine. You'll get Ankit Ponda talking

36:38

about nuclear war and much, much else.