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Eleven. Follow the show where ever you

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get your podcasts. I.

1:01

Never cared about race. I never thought

1:04

that race was interesting in itself. And

1:06

it was precisely because my new environment

1:08

refuted that lack of interest that I

1:11

became curious. Why am I suddenly now?

1:13

Being. Told to pay attention to raise all

1:15

the time. I don't care about your

1:17

race. I care about becoming friends and and

1:19

associating with people on the basis of shared

1:22

interest and shared values. I thought that's what

1:24

it meant. To. Be progressive about

1:26

race. What

1:29

could go right? I'm. Zachary

1:31

Caravel, the founder of The Progress that

1:33

we're joined as always buy em of

1:35

our Valukas, the Executive Director of The

1:38

Progress Network and this is our weekly

1:40

podcast called. What? Could go right. Which.

1:42

Is a way of. Asking. A question

1:45

that we don't ask enough As in. Were.

1:47

Always asking what could go wrong in the world? Why don't

1:49

we ask what? you go right in the world? They are

1:51

both. Intrinsically. Possible outcomes

1:54

of uncertain futures and so.

1:56

The. Fact that we pay substantial on

1:58

perhaps in ordinance Attend. Into all but

2:00

could go wrong. May. Skew are

2:03

sensibility as to what is actually going

2:05

on in the world in a way that

2:07

prevents us from asking the question what could

2:09

go right and re considering the possibility that

2:11

there is a lot that could go better

2:14

than we think better than we fear, better

2:16

than we perceive especially given that we are

2:18

constantly focus on all the things that could

2:21

go wrong and rarely to people look at

2:23

the question of race and America from a

2:25

question of what the go right in Sat,

2:27

Race and America for my entire lifetime and

2:30

for the lifetime of most people alive today.

2:32

Has been a continual chronic question

2:34

of all that is going wrong

2:36

or at least has been filtered

2:38

through a lens of everything is

2:40

always going wrong and going awry

2:42

and we have sailed to solve

2:44

one of the great wounds of

2:46

American society between African Americans and

2:48

the greater largely white society. Although

2:50

now that is less true meaning.

2:52

the greater society is Hispanic and

2:54

Asian and offers a multicultural but

2:56

nonetheless the question of how races

2:58

organize themselves. The United States are

3:00

we live together. How. We don't live

3:03

together. What kind of social injustices and

3:05

inequities there are and how we are

3:07

supposed to deal with those? Are we

3:09

supposed to be all those through laws

3:11

for a change in. Attitudes or

3:13

change and sentiment. And the

3:16

degree to which these questions are

3:18

rarely asked calmly they are usually

3:20

disgust hysterically is at all. In

3:23

shouting an ad hominem and in

3:25

accusations of lack of good faith

3:27

and or racism. And. Or

3:30

insensitivity, you name it, On

3:33

the part of those. Arguing.

3:36

And their view of those whom they're

3:38

arguing against. So. Hopefully we'll

3:40

have a conversation today. That. Is.

3:43

On. A difficult third rail topic. But

3:46

not in and hysterical fashion and I am

3:48

pretty convinced that the person we're gonna talk

3:50

to or at least allow for the space

3:53

to have that kind of conversation so I

3:55

will tell us about who was behind door

3:57

number three. So. Today we're going to talk to

3:59

com. News: He is a writer and

4:01

a podcast or as if you're interested

4:04

in listening to his podcast called conversations

4:06

with Home and we'll have a good

4:08

alliteration around here. He usually rights issues

4:10

related to race and. Public Policy and

4:12

Applied Ethics Is an analyst on Cnn

4:15

and also a country editor at the

4:17

City Journal. Some maria to go talk.

4:19

To com cod as a say about his

4:21

new book which is called the End of

4:23

Race Politics Arguments. For a colorblind America, bread

4:26

is accurate. I am ready. Calm

4:29

and who's It's a pleasure to have

4:32

you join what could go rights and

4:34

as our listeners now but you may

4:36

be less familiar with since. One

4:38

of our attempts enduring this podcast was

4:40

an attempt to either look at things

4:42

that are going better in the world

4:44

are we think they are or to

4:46

look at things that we know we're

4:48

going badly with an eye toward what

4:50

are we able to do collectively to

4:52

ameliorate to improve to move forward rather

4:54

than save stuck in an endless spin

4:56

of of negativity rights for those of

4:58

the to and of axes. Of how

5:00

we try to have these conversations and

5:03

not in any manner shape or form,

5:05

skirt or allied or evade difficult questions.

5:07

Difficult topic. Some things that are indeed

5:09

problematic, right? Your recent book, while it's

5:12

title the End of Riot is is

5:14

more aspiration, only the end of than

5:16

it is. It has now ended. And

5:19

I and I wonder you know when you when

5:21

you think about racial politics and you think about

5:23

what you're drawing attention to him when all your

5:25

work over the past years has been. To.

5:28

Use feel. That there

5:30

is a plausible end in the way in which

5:32

you aspiration only title the book or is this

5:34

is more of a call to. Awareness.

5:37

And legacy each of us to doing what

5:39

we can individually and within whatever kind of

5:41

institution we have. The A Good

5:43

Question in the Book which is called the

5:45

End of Race Politics. The Be

5:47

subtitle his arguments for a colorblind America

5:50

and the question you ask is a

5:52

variant of many people's first thought which

5:54

is is a Colorblind America is impossible

5:56

Forget about whether we should go to

5:59

or is it can we reach It

6:01

is in some way. the more. Pressing.

6:04

First question. I view the

6:06

prospect of a colorblind America. Kind.

6:09

Of like I view the prospect of a

6:11

peaceful America. It's. Never going to

6:13

happen in a perfect sense, like

6:15

we're never going to live in

6:17

a country with a murder rate

6:20

of zero and assault rate of

6:22

zero in so on and so

6:24

forth. But the concept of peace

6:26

and peacefulness is a Northstar such

6:28

that we know when we're going

6:30

towards it. And we know when

6:32

we're going further away from it. I view

6:34

color blindness very much in the same way.

6:37

It's. Not that will ever get

6:39

to a society with zero

6:41

racism. That's impossible given just

6:43

how flawed human nature can

6:45

be and. The fact that. Certain

6:48

people always. Want. To

6:50

indulge it Kind of toxic.

6:53

Bigotry. But. Color blindness should

6:55

be the north star in determining whether we're

6:57

going closer to that ideal or whether we

6:59

are moving further away from it. As I

7:02

argue, we have been in the past ten

7:04

years. By. Obsessing. Moreover, racial

7:06

identity. In. Our personal and

7:09

social lives and by injecting. Race:

7:11

Into public policy. Suck. On

7:13

any given, a little bit more detail that

7:15

what you need by collar blinds I think

7:17

the phrase it comes to mind for lot

7:19

of people in the estimate that as I

7:21

don't see race, you know that I don't

7:23

see. That's exactly what you mean. Yeah.

7:26

I don't like the phrase i don't see race.

7:28

But. I don't like it for a different

7:30

reason than a lot of commentators and

7:32

riders dislike it. Many. People criticize

7:35

that phrase. As. A general

7:37

critique of color blindness in general.

7:40

They. Will say that color blindness is

7:42

really white supremacy in disguise. Or.

7:44

It's naive at best. It's

7:47

somehow and inherently conservative or reactionary

7:49

concept. I reject all of these

7:51

ideas for reasons I go into

7:53

detail in the book. But.

7:56

I dislike the phrase i don't see

7:58

race because it. Provides. The very

8:00

convenient target for critics of color

8:03

blindness. An easy target. And

8:05

it's actually misleading because in fact,

8:07

we do see race right at

8:09

least. American Adults issue for if

8:12

you're raised in society that. Makes.

8:14

Race The salient. So by the

8:16

time you become an adult in

8:19

America, given how sensitize we are

8:21

to race, everyone sees race. right?

8:23

Olanoff your podcast as. Video.

8:25

I see me do. but. Your.

8:27

Listeners are going to see that I'm not

8:30

an Asian woman, They're going to see that

8:32

I'm a black guy, and they're going to

8:34

see what what race they they believe you

8:36

belong to. And more than that, we're all

8:38

capable of being racially biased, so I want

8:40

to grand those two things right at the

8:42

top. What I mean by colorblind and what

8:44

many people mean when they say I don't

8:46

see race is really. I try to treat

8:48

people without regard to race, which is a

8:51

more accurate and defensible statement. and that's what

8:53

I mean by color blindness as and then

8:55

the last part of it, which is a

8:57

more controversial. Part is that I demand that

8:59

the state treats me without regard to race,

9:01

which means getting rid of race in our

9:03

public policy. So. Where's.

9:06

That look like in a specific example.

9:08

What? What something that you can point

9:10

to that most who are you familiar

9:13

with that we do now that we

9:15

should do differently. So. At

9:17

the policy level. Race based affirmative

9:19

action is the most salient case

9:22

here because. Before. The supreme

9:24

court ruling. You. Have a

9:26

situation where. You know an

9:28

eighteen year old student applying to college

9:30

in many cases a but for cause

9:32

of their acceptance or rejection at a

9:34

college would be their race. Which is

9:37

to say an Asian student applies to

9:39

Harvard and gets rejected. You. Make

9:41

that. Identical. Application.

9:44

But. Make that student. White.

9:46

Or or. You know, god

9:48

forbid black or Hispanic male. Definitely get it

9:50

right. There. Are many cases like that?

9:52

Assad? Every case, but it's widely enough. true.

9:55

That. You just have what

9:57

is in essence. Mass

9:59

Race. Discrimination every year and

10:01

who gets admitted. To. Colleges

10:03

and and in why they get admitted. And.

10:06

Their various defenses for this. Some.

10:09

Overly clever and some more

10:11

substantial. But at.

10:13

The end it a day. They all amount to.

10:16

Know. Looking someone in the face and same.

10:18

Sorry. But you know your race

10:20

is is. The reason you didn't get

10:22

into the school. Which. Is something that

10:25

makes. Americans up in

10:27

both parties profoundly uncomfortable when forced

10:29

to look at it. In.

10:31

The face and without euphemisms. So.

10:34

Something like affirmative action going from.

10:37

A. Race based policy to a policy

10:39

that is. Based. On

10:42

other factors, whether that be class. Or.

10:44

Whether that be policies were.

10:47

You. Accept the top ten percent.

10:50

Of Students at Every public school in

10:52

the states If you're say a state

10:54

school. Of. As a race new to

10:56

policy that is still. Quote. Unquote Equitable

10:58

in the sense that you are casting

11:00

a wider net than you would have

11:02

based on. Save. Looking at

11:04

as A T scores alone. So.

11:07

Really? If you know that

11:09

that's that's the most elite example of

11:11

a policy where you can get rid

11:13

of race while also still addressing the

11:15

issue of. Disadvantage: And.

11:19

Unlevel. Playing Fields. So.

11:22

Common I'm going as he's or another

11:24

example since the affirmative action is kind

11:26

of a moot point at this point

11:28

and and then acid it. Not Saturday

11:30

with the colored vaccines. I think that

11:33

was the out And he is finally

11:35

backtracked as an example of mostly because

11:37

when I hear about arguments fairways, plan

11:39

society. In terms of public policy,

11:41

it does feel like we're kind of

11:43

already living a life. And we've

11:45

already reached at so another example

11:48

you could use his. Federal

11:50

contracts and state level contracts.

11:52

Federal Contracting The A Federal

11:55

government and the vast majority

11:57

of not all states. Have

12:00

requirements that a certain percentage

12:02

of government awarded contracts go

12:04

to minority owned. Businesses.

12:07

And certain states have.

12:09

Percentage. Guidelines and percentage quotas

12:11

and this varies at the state level

12:13

and so on and so forth which

12:16

has for decades as a sidebar led

12:18

to the problem of since a fraud

12:20

of white owned businesses pretending to be

12:23

minority on businesses or actually having to

12:25

kind of you can call it is

12:27

sort of and ali baba business where

12:30

really owned by someone and then someone

12:32

else is sort of fronting the ownership

12:34

someone and so forth. So. This

12:36

has been a longstanding policy that's ingrained

12:38

in in the fabric of federal contracting

12:40

and state level contracting at this point,

12:42

And if you want it to somehow

12:45

distribute this a based on some other

12:47

metric ib open in that conversation. but

12:49

I don't think that we ought to

12:51

use race as a variable. I'm

12:53

wondering what you think goes and this

12:55

no me neither here nor there. For

12:57

the essential point there was a and

12:59

attempts are still is an attempt to

13:01

New York State with cat cannabis legalization.

13:04

To award dispensary licenses

13:06

primarily or disproportionately to

13:09

people who had been

13:11

harmed by zealous prosecution.

13:14

Of cannabis laws prior to legalization that

13:16

was I park there was a whole

13:19

quota system thousand challenge and the courts

13:21

as being discriminatory to other people, not

13:23

on racial grounds, As done and and

13:26

evasive. The whole system has drawn to

13:28

a total halt, but what do you

13:30

make of that type of discrimination by

13:32

it's not racial per se. It was

13:35

an attempt to say that there should

13:37

be a remedial attempt to, I guess

13:39

retroactively. Address. Harms that

13:41

we're done often an African

13:43

American communities. By. Like

13:46

zealous prosecution of of cannabis possession.

13:48

Yeah. So in in principle I don't see

13:51

how it's or race related issue. A

13:53

oh it is risk related, but only

13:55

in the sense of disparate impact, right?

13:57

So. It's it's not choosing black.

14:00

People to give. Or hispanic people to

14:02

to give licenses do with saying if you

14:04

can show you have been harmed by. Overzealous,

14:07

Marijuana laws in the past? Then we're

14:09

gonna put you at the top of

14:12

the list. And do you know whether

14:14

it so happens that the majority of

14:16

people sitting that bill or or black

14:18

or hispanic or otherwise is a a

14:20

knock on sacked right? It's not true

14:22

so much. My argument in general isn't

14:24

against. Almost. Everything has a

14:26

racial disproportionate. And. If

14:29

you if you had a law like

14:31

that after prohibition that wanted to give

14:33

a liquor licenses to the people that

14:35

had been harmed by like overzealous prohibition

14:37

laws. He. Would find it would have

14:39

a different racial breakdown and I would not

14:42

be opposed to that On. Colorblind.

14:44

This grounds weather is a wise policy is

14:47

a totally separate question that I haven't really

14:49

looked into. And. I guess I'd also

14:51

than raises in for me one of the

14:53

big question is is anywhere in the world

14:55

that has racial divisions are not Every country

14:57

does or least not. In

14:59

a fundamental a red Scandinavian countries don't fundamentally

15:01

have this issue ethnically it although they do

15:04

now with you know how they have dealt

15:06

or dell badly with a surge of. Non.

15:09

Scandinavian immigrants, Diesel anywhere in

15:11

the world. Any human society

15:13

gets this right or gets

15:16

this. Better. Better.

15:18

Than America. Yeah. I.

15:20

Am unaware of a society that. Gets.

15:22

This better than America in in the general

15:24

sense as a few things that we have

15:26

to observe about the difference between America and

15:28

most of the rest of the world. Whether.

15:31

We're talking about European countries are

15:33

surly. East Asian countries were talking

15:35

about societies that have been so

15:37

deeply premised on as shared ethnicity

15:40

and shared language that they've rarely

15:42

are. Only recently had had to

15:44

begun to deal with the challenge

15:46

of multiculturalism in multi at a

15:48

city a minute into Japan and

15:50

Korea are effectively ethno states in

15:53

in the sense that it's one

15:55

ethnicity. And. You can immigrate

15:57

there are. it's extremely hard to and.

16:00

Though. I. Have never been faced

16:02

with. As a society on a

16:04

deep level, this question of how should

16:06

the state deal with the conundrums and

16:08

issues that arise when you have multiple

16:10

races of people living alongside one another.

16:13

America for various reasons

16:16

was. Really? That the

16:18

first experiments in multi racial democracy

16:20

and hazardous And and because it

16:22

had effectively open borders in the

16:25

nineteenth century until nineteen early Nineteen

16:27

twenties, and substantial immigration after Nineteen

16:30

Sixty Five has been faced with

16:32

a. A challenge that most. Most.

16:35

European countries haven't and until I guess

16:37

the migrant crisis even then it's a

16:39

do a little bit of a different

16:41

challenge. So my arguments are more. Kind.

16:44

Of narrowly tailored to America in

16:46

the sense that. I'm not really

16:48

sure I know what like Singapore should do.

16:51

Or what Japan should do. Necessarily

16:53

these are very different societies, very different

16:55

cultures. A deal with the issue

16:57

of. Race and diversity in

17:00

quite different ways, but. In.

17:02

General, It's not just that I don't

17:04

know of a place that has done

17:06

it better. I don't know of a

17:08

place which has truly face the same

17:10

challenges the even period You know how

17:13

our house address the challenges a separate

17:15

question from even whether countries have faced

17:17

a challenge in a long runway. If

17:19

that makes sense. Yeah, I'm in a

17:21

decent. There are societies like. Canada has

17:24

had a more a melting pot. as shall we

17:26

say we have a melting pot can. It probably

17:28

has had a a more actual melting pot approach.

17:30

him. And then you're left with

17:32

countries at m de facto dealt with

17:34

different aspects of race in Mexico between

17:36

out Spanish immigrant group and of indigenous

17:39

or Brazil with its prime or somewhere

17:41

the United States as my answer. That

17:43

question is. Is. Soccer Than any

17:45

society has dealt with this particularly well. Some

17:47

have dealt with it differently. In.

17:50

India, which is more cast as she

17:52

writes, has massive protests systems which according

17:54

to most Indians, doesn't really ameliorate the

17:56

problem. A dust is a way of

17:58

addressing it. That. Would

18:00

continue even after independent India constitution

18:02

permitted coat of and reservations. Not

18:04

baby one though only to marginalized

18:07

groups. the sp that of a sudden

18:09

cough and the Athena for saudi will

18:11

try. This observation can be

18:13

divided into two types, one of the

18:15

political one with a temporary, the other

18:18

the social kind your jobs and called

18:20

see the political reservation meant caught up

18:22

in elected bodies like parliament and state

18:24

assembly. That. Was supposed to be

18:26

reevaluated up to ten years. But. Nowadays,

18:28

there is no evaluation, There

18:31

is only extension. Famously.

18:34

There's the French model. Where. The

18:36

government can't collect any kind of racial statistics

18:38

and new to, you know? sure. He

18:41

the government can ask you a raise your rates. And.

18:43

So she look up the census figures

18:45

in France. You're. Not going to find

18:47

how many. Moroccans lives in Paris

18:49

or whatever you do you might find

18:51

out from some academic but you're not

18:54

gonna get it on. Government. Figures

18:56

Tourist center has a big effect I'm

18:58

I'm skeptical loves, and I think it's

19:00

possible to go too far in terms

19:03

of prohibiting people from even asking certain

19:05

questions. Cohen. I wanted of

19:07

Facts are second to salaries question

19:09

about the weed industry in Austin

19:11

Got a three but the remediation

19:13

of harm arguments. I think it's

19:16

the most common argument that I

19:18

hear. Against your colorblind argument,

19:20

right? That given. The history of

19:22

the United States in given that there's a specific

19:24

history of. Harm. Against Against

19:26

I've seen a. Black.

19:28

People in particular because of slavery. Also.

19:31

Other races and ethnicities and a to talk. About

19:33

Chinese or Japanese friends sense. Why

19:35

to you is are needy Asian

19:38

as harm argument Okay as far

19:40

as. We'd. Play were out where

19:42

an overzealous law harm you but not one as

19:45

based on race and as hub in laws in

19:47

the past that day cause harm based on race.

19:49

So. The the analogy would only make

19:52

sense if and instead of talking

19:54

about where mediating individuals that were.

19:56

Convicted. Of marijuana

19:58

related offenses, you instead.

20:01

Drawing a line around a group,

20:03

many of whom are six seven

20:05

generations removed from the people that

20:07

were convicted, That's what would make

20:09

the analogy make sense. I've always

20:11

been in favor of paying remediation

20:13

to specific identifiable people. So for

20:15

example, there's a program outside of

20:17

Evanston sick of Chicago out on

20:19

of the status, as well as

20:21

months ago last time I checked

20:23

on it. Whereas. You can

20:25

show that as a black person,

20:28

you were denied a mortgage in

20:30

the nineteen fifties or sixties in

20:32

a Red Lines neighborhood. Then

20:34

you get a certain some sum of money

20:36

as remediation for that. I'm. All

20:38

for that in principle. When

20:40

I'm against. Is. The idea

20:42

which is. Quite. A separate

20:45

concept that I because I

20:47

happen to be a descendant

20:49

of slaves many generations removed.

20:52

Not. My self harmed, but rather a

20:54

descendant of someone who is harmed That

20:56

I am therefore entitled to what they

20:58

didn't receive. The.

21:07

Government of Kenya pledged to and gender

21:09

based violence by Twenty Twenty Six. Initiates

21:12

House in Uganda is trying to eradicate

21:14

Yellow Fever. It's ambitious to make these

21:16

kinds of pledges that is much harder

21:19

to achieve These articles. Are these leaders

21:21

really delivering on his promises for women

21:23

and girls turn into a new season

21:25

of the hidden Economics of Remarkable When

21:27

And a podcast from Foreign Policy As

21:30

Reporters Across Africa Me courageous woman holding

21:32

leaders accountable and various sectors including healthcare

21:34

start ups and the government listen to

21:36

his an Economics of Remarkable Been and.

21:38

Wherever you that your podcasts. History.

21:41

Doesn't repeat itself but it off Ryan's

21:43

Sat. Maybe a Mark Twain fan but

21:45

assistance to today's when he recently said

21:47

at my history can beat up your

21:49

Politics is a podcast The comparison contrasts

21:51

history to the current events of today

21:53

so spruce cause and has recently done

21:55

deep dives on fascinating topics. I to

21:57

follow the Soviet Union which sets the

21:59

stage. They geopolitics the man who was

22:01

in prison and still won a million

22:03

votes for the presidency and the mystery

22:05

behind George Washington's involvement or last Arab

22:07

and a bill of Rights money. She

22:09

can be your politics office deep contacts

22:11

the all these historic stories especially those

22:13

that you may think you know wealth

22:15

and is particularly adept ever leading them

22:17

to current events. so don't miss out.

22:19

Listen to my history, can beat up

22:21

your Paul Sex on. All platforms. I.

22:28

Want to shift gears? Roman Tuck little

22:30

that you personally as it applies to

22:32

the work that you're doing and this

22:34

had been unfair questions is none of

22:36

us have full perspective ourselves but. You.

22:38

Know it's I say that there's

22:41

almost an oddly inverse reaction to

22:43

the the moderate ness of your

22:45

tone and writing. And. The

22:48

hysterical reaction to your tone and riding in

22:50

are you don't come across as a firebrand

22:52

nominee that there's different place for firebrands, right?

22:54

There are people who, priests are people who

22:56

get off on a kind of a moral

22:58

unequivocal on a soapbox dance and sometimes us

23:00

an effective way of moving an argument and

23:03

and talking about those. But I think it's

23:05

fair to say that's not. You know that's

23:07

not your temper, men, it's not your effect

23:09

and yet you would sink or give the

23:11

if someone only read and listened to reactions

23:13

to you. I. Will you would think

23:15

you were this. Just. The

23:18

and nuanced. Zealous

23:20

crusader. Against All That

23:23

is good and Affirmative Action in the United

23:25

States. To. Have any sense of I

23:27

mean is it just are moment? is it or

23:29

you just a convenient lightning rod for whole series

23:31

of other things. And again, I get the

23:33

fact that. None. Of us are the

23:35

best judges of. How. We come

23:37

off and how people rap I wonder if you

23:39

have any Having now been in this particular arena

23:42

for a couple of years, right? If

23:44

you have any thoughts about that, Own I

23:46

guess as to thought about it one is. It's.

23:49

It's possible that someone that is. Com.

23:52

And not Firebrand is can.

23:55

Provoke. More anger than someone who. Is

23:58

firebrand this? because? There

24:00

can be kind of backlash effect to

24:02

calmly reasoning with someone but still deeply

24:04

disagreeing because there's a sense that I

24:06

may not be seized by things I

24:08

should be phased by in that can

24:10

be additionally frustrating and away sir, having

24:12

served people would prefer me to be

24:15

a kind of hysterical preacher to then

24:17

I'd be easier to dismiss and I

24:19

guess maybe that can provoke more anger

24:21

and people. Secondly, I

24:23

think it's it's It's true that the

24:25

Like: If you compare me to someone

24:27

like Candace Owens whose I think her

24:29

her most recent. Insanity. I

24:31

mean her to. Most recent insanities were

24:33

that the i think I see I

24:36

created Hollywood. Which. I think that

24:38

timeline on those two things is the wrong

24:40

direction for that to be even true. And

24:42

we would say it's it's problematic and

24:44

a manual microns. Wife is a man

24:46

and she said quote she would steaks

24:49

her professional career on. On.

24:51

That sack. Is. A kinds of things

24:53

that that I would I would have to be

24:55

literally in the grip of meth addiction for me

24:57

to say these had to face. But on the

25:00

other hand. You can probably find two

25:02

sentences of me. That sound

25:04

very similar and I are making very similar

25:06

claim to something that came to zones would

25:08

say. So superficially, if you're not paying

25:11

attention, it could be very easy to lump us

25:13

into the same category of think world. All of

25:15

these you know, black people that have the kind

25:17

of contrary views you're not supposed to have. They.

25:20

All seem like nut jobs. In other

25:22

they see things like the the see I

25:24

invented Hollywood and then the manual macros. Why

25:26

says you know a man. And. So

25:28

I think I'm not looking into things

25:30

is the our countries are explanation for

25:33

a lot of misjudgments in the space.

25:35

So. Caught up in L a

25:37

father question to that for me is. Why

25:40

did you get into that sort of. Arena

25:42

of issues was it an active choice

25:45

and something intentional or was it the

25:47

fell into it or whether these other

25:49

give a some poor and that you

25:51

know you needed to get into it

25:54

because it does seem sometimes from the

25:56

outside that's the reaction and their criticism

25:58

might not be one. The

26:01

engagement the maybe it'll fill out and. They've.

26:03

Been times when I felt that way. absolutely. Will.

26:06

Not my career with. Spinach. Kind

26:08

of a weird. Oh. We're journey at

26:10

at eighteen. I went to the Juilliard School

26:12

of Music and I was a professional musician.

26:15

Still am a professional musician, though I spend

26:17

more of a hobbyist amount of time on

26:19

it. And. I.

26:21

Always. Loved both music

26:24

and. Philosophy. And split

26:26

my time between the two. My my

26:28

mother died when I was a freshman

26:30

at music school. And. That. Caused

26:33

me to really reflect

26:35

and. And. Actually caused

26:37

me to drop out of Juilliard. And.

26:40

Try to Colombia. And when I

26:43

got to Columbia. This was right

26:45

around the beginning of what Matthew Yglesias

26:47

would later call the great A welcoming.

26:51

Wouldn't. Be fair to say that

26:53

the Great Awakening, the squeeze on

26:55

religious quasar, cultural revolution originated. At

26:58

the university's. I would

27:01

say absolutely yes When I would

27:03

say is that it's very clear

27:05

that the nucleation plane for the

27:07

ideology were. The. Universities and originally

27:10

kind of the fringe departments of the

27:12

universities. And the old consensus.

27:14

You know you could ask a

27:16

republican or democrat, a liberal or

27:18

conservative they would also you the

27:20

same thing up until extremely recently

27:22

and that was. His. Campus

27:24

nonsense. This.

27:26

Is a time when. Liberal white

27:28

Americans began going bit by bit

27:30

further and further to the last

27:33

on racial issues to the point

27:35

that by certain year I forget

27:37

which white Democrats were further to

27:39

the last on. Race: Issues

27:41

than black Americans as a set. this

27:43

was much more pronounced on college campuses

27:45

than it was among why democrats on

27:48

the whole. So I was going from

27:50

situation being a black and Hispanic kid

27:52

who grew up in a liberal town

27:54

with the kind of default Mlk style

27:57

ideology towards race which is to say

27:59

the race doesn't matter, your race doesn't

28:01

define you and it doesn't define me

28:04

and the first person to come into

28:06

the room and. Began. Treating

28:08

people differently. As. A result

28:10

of race. That's the person who's making the mistake. and

28:12

it's up to everyone else in the room to say

28:14

no. That's. The Philosophy Race I grew

28:16

up with. And. I

28:19

think it's the right one cut to Now

28:21

I'm in an environment where. All. Of

28:23

a sudden racial identity spoken of as

28:26

a kind of. Magic. Inside

28:28

your soul Read the people talk

28:30

about black This as this beautiful

28:32

inner quality insofar as you have

28:34

any thing as non white is

28:36

talked about as a kind of

28:38

as a kind of slice of

28:40

god inside your soul and insofar

28:43

as your why. This is supposed

28:45

to be basically of a marker

28:47

of of shame and a reason

28:49

to. Humble yourself, right?

28:51

And this influences social. Interactions.

28:54

Influences conversations,

28:57

And. What's more, it's enshrined

28:59

in. Some. Of the policies at

29:01

the school though, the I talk about the

29:03

orientation policy in my book. Were.

29:05

At. Columbia. Orientation they had us

29:07

go. Black kids in one corner,

29:10

the room, Hispanic kids in another, whites,

29:12

Asians, etc. And then we all talk

29:14

about how we either participate in or

29:16

suffer from. Systemic. Racism. And

29:18

that the effect of this policy, whatever

29:20

it and ten was now to make

29:22

me hyper aware of my racial identity

29:24

and how presumptive li it makes me

29:27

different from other people in the room.

29:29

And is precisely the opposite emphasis

29:31

of the kind of. Common.

29:34

Humanity Civil Rights ethos with

29:36

says. Yes, You're. White

29:38

And I'm black. But. Don't we

29:40

both bleed red? Don't We both love

29:43

our children. Check on and on down

29:45

the line of the things that make

29:47

us com in so as to not

29:49

exacerbate the inevitable tribalism in society, but

29:52

to tamp down on it and so

29:54

being thrust from the one environment into

29:56

the other. Made. Me wonder like

29:58

a is is totally new. The

30:01

approach in philosophy to race which

30:03

people are basically afraid to talk

30:05

about because if you're white person

30:07

to consider critiquing it is to

30:09

potentially invite a charge of racism

30:11

and that's like food. want do

30:13

that. To critique it as a

30:16

person of color is potentially to

30:18

invite the the lesser but still

30:20

damning charge of. Being. A

30:22

traitor? Have some kind. And the

30:24

whole dynamic around it was so

30:26

contrary to skeptical inquiry. And so

30:28

that's since you were a i'm

30:31

coming from. As a person, I

30:33

never cared about race. I never

30:35

saw that race was interesting in

30:37

itself. And. It was precisely because

30:39

my new environment refuted that lack of

30:42

interest that I became curious. Why

30:44

am I suddenly now being told to pay

30:46

attention to raise all the time? I

30:48

don't care about your race. I care about

30:50

becoming friends and and associating with people on

30:53

the basis of shared interests and shared values.

30:55

I thought that's what it meant to be

30:57

progressive about race, and so he was. The

30:59

distance between those two things that interested me

31:02

at a personal level and eventually I started

31:04

writing about publicly. It's. Also interesting

31:06

to hear about this because I was a

31:08

college. Five. Years I think before

31:10

you were and we had none of that

31:12

stuff. Since. As you do, see this

31:14

going on with your kids Hilaire Next Generation

31:16

Final Call on a nice. Curricular

31:18

really? Yes, socially now nearing and of

31:21

the books that are chosen be read,

31:23

but much less of this going on

31:25

In in fact, I'm wary though of

31:27

kind of anecdotal I'm. In.

31:29

A We all have our own persons from

31:31

Sonos. A personal experience scans well with the

31:33

generalizable one. Sometimes it doesn't. Doesn't. Mean

31:36

the general is or isn't true and usually means

31:38

of the first one isn't true or is or

31:40

isn't indicative. Yeah. Meanwhile, I've heard from more than

31:42

one person medical a lot of. Younger.

31:45

Kids, I guess I don't know their

31:47

genji anymore. Actually, they may be whatever

31:50

comes after that are not so hot

31:52

on this philosophy and a mere as.

31:54

Generational. Turnover tends to do you know

31:57

it was what was cool and one generation

31:59

almost by definition. Because next so it

32:01

wouldn't surprise me. Terribly. If

32:03

if you didn't see much of this socially. So.

32:06

Wonder on this question also

32:08

of the bedfellows. one a

32:10

tracks when you know. A.

32:12

Nun's here to view and of fauci a

32:14

book about change what he and of doing

32:16

about they're going to be a lot of

32:18

people decay. Given some of the philosophy

32:20

is your to kill it and. In

32:23

your book and in your work, a

32:25

who's who's allegiance. He probably. Wouldn't

32:27

be overly fond of I'm in a may not

32:29

be as bad as. Churchill one said

32:31

I would a ally with the devil said

32:33

it would help me defeat the Nazis are

32:36

admitting as I don't care who. Fights.

32:38

On my side as long as. They're

32:40

fighting on my side. Because. They're an awful

32:42

lot of people rise who. Say. So some

32:44

of the. Articulation. Of

32:46

your philosophy. Might. Be genuinely races

32:49

or my be genuinely a whole the

32:51

whole series of views that you have

32:53

price on morally questionable of.up warrant Now

32:55

you're not responsible for that in any

32:58

manner shape or form. sorry how you

33:00

navigate that. Well I

33:02

guess the options are either

33:04

to. To. See that as

33:06

a reason not to speak,

33:08

which I find. Unacceptable

33:11

for to speak any and

33:13

to try to mitigate that

33:15

risk by doing my best

33:17

to be responsible about when

33:19

I'm not saying. I'm not

33:21

saying that you should be a single issue

33:23

voter on colorblind issues or not. And

33:26

if you were a single issue voter on

33:28

color blindness and almost by default at this

33:30

point, you'd have to vote. For.

33:32

Republicans and for Trump that I didn't and

33:34

I I I don't think I'd ever vote

33:36

for Trump A it has to be something

33:38

so horrible on the other side to get

33:40

me to devote for a guy like that.

33:42

so I don't recommend being a single issue

33:44

voter. Are. On any topic

33:47

necessarily. I. Absolutely don't.

33:50

Condone. That. The far

33:52

Right and and White supremacy and. All.

33:55

Of these things are precisely counter to the

33:57

spirit of color blindness And in so far

33:59

as there. People pretending to cheer on

34:01

color blindness. But. Actually holding something

34:03

else. that's not a mark against colorblind

34:06

this data march against them from being

34:08

dishonest. And it's not a march against

34:10

people who hold the Color Blind philosophy

34:13

in good faith. Is. Stephanie, a

34:15

real phenomenon to me that

34:17

doesn't justify not speaking. Although.

34:19

For many people it would for many people they

34:22

would you say? rather than have a single person

34:24

take me to be someone I'm not. I'm.

34:26

Gonna shut my mouth and choose a

34:28

different career path. I've chosen to take

34:30

the opposite side of that because I

34:32

think the importance of speaking our ways,

34:34

the discomfort I feel when. Somebody.

34:37

Unsavory. Likes me. Everybody,

34:48

I'm sketchy and Emery saliva us through

34:50

the hosts a political breakdown or show

34:52

that pulls back the curtain on the

34:54

people and forces driving politics in the

34:57

Golden State's from Kid Cudi and San

34:59

Francisco. And now

35:01

ahead of the Twenty Twenty Four

35:03

election, we are bringing you even

35:05

more more conversations for the top

35:07

movers and shakers that the state

35:09

capital and in national politics. But

35:11

the decisive the greatest gift that a rapid

35:13

me nothing was wrote. nothing was linear. I

35:16

had to work around thanks work differently see

35:18

the world differently can I say that his

35:20

young people and say know how important. Your

35:24

picture cetacean. It and I think it's

35:26

time for this generation of before divorces more.

35:28

Reporting with analysis. Been a

35:30

very good session for organized labor, but I'm

35:32

Labour Summer Hot Labour summer. It's turn out

35:35

to be a nice fall as well more.

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your podcasts. On

37:06

our the the talk a little bit about. Something.

37:09

That we're. Confronted. With

37:11

the Progress network which is the hat. When

37:13

you point out progress, A

37:16

lot of people think that you're. Kind.

37:18

Of being an ass. Meaning. That yeah,

37:20

there's really no that argument that race relations the

37:22

United States nowadays are worse. and then they were

37:25

in the sixties. I would say worse anywhere in

37:27

a D is worse than they were in the

37:29

nineties. Like, there's definitely been. Progress.

37:31

On that the that has. Come. Along

37:33

with a view as particularly on the last

37:35

that. Things. Are getting. Worse.

37:37

And worse and worse. To the point

37:40

that people. Think that the United States is

37:42

a much more races. Place than the rest the

37:44

world which. If he was his his his you know.

37:46

That's absolutely untrue. So.

37:48

I wonder if you could just talk a little

37:50

bit about why you think that? That is that

37:52

perception. Is so en masse with reality

37:55

on this issue. The old as

37:57

a whole speed of books about talked

37:59

about progress in general and why people

38:01

so angered by Steven Pinker i think

38:03

have probably the most famous book enlightenment

38:05

now. Hans Rosling had a book called

38:07

Sackful Nurse. Illicit. Isn't probably have

38:09

heard of these books. And they

38:11

and others have pointed out just that.

38:14

There's is a basic point about media

38:16

bias. I'm I'm a Cnn analyst. We

38:18

almost never analyzed good news. In fact,

38:21

I'm not sure we've ever analyze good

38:23

news. We we analyzed controversial news and

38:25

upsetting news. So anything from controversial to

38:27

upsetting gets eyeballs on the screen. But

38:30

it seems like good news. My appear

38:32

in your Instagram really liked. My fiance

38:34

likes to watch videos of dogs and

38:37

babies and stuff like that happy stuff

38:39

that doesn't get people tuning in. To

38:41

to cable news or to the New York

38:43

Times or to the Wall Street Journal and

38:46

so forth. So. There's a general

38:48

bias towards the negative which shapes

38:50

every issue on the issue of

38:52

race in particular. I think that

38:54

the promise if you're seem to

38:56

be saying that progress has been

38:58

made you can also be construed

39:00

as saying that the issues over

39:02

and is your construed as saying

39:04

that. Then. You get

39:06

rid nos if you're a white person

39:09

as the category of a clueless pollyanna

39:11

white person that doesn't know about racism

39:13

because their wife and his ignorant and

39:16

needs to read Robin de Angelo and

39:18

so forth. And so you get very

39:20

few people willing to save. You know

39:23

what you just said, namely that a

39:25

lot of progress has happened. I had

39:27

a essay probably five years ago at

39:30

this point in collette called the Case

39:32

for Black Optimism in which I laid

39:34

out a lot. Of the data

39:36

points about progress. That are.

39:39

Just. Not. Publicize at All. I mean

39:41

the most shocking one to me. shocking in

39:43

the sense that it was never a front

39:45

page New York Times article is at and

39:48

he was between. Two thousand and

39:50

one and two other seventeen, the incarceration

39:52

rate for black men in their twenties

39:54

more than cut in half As astonishing

39:56

that it that's between when I was

39:58

in kindergarten in my for. Drink Twenty

40:00

One! Actually, that was my first, my

40:02

first legal to take this new intel.

40:05

And yes, thank you. So.

40:07

We're talking about a minute. This is

40:09

interesting because there's an organization I don't

40:11

know much about have been called Cut

40:13

Safety and a want to cut the

40:16

incarceration rate by fifty percent. Which.

40:18

Is. Considered. An ambitious goal and

40:20

nobody knows that this happened between two thousand and

40:22

one in two thousand seventeen. And so

40:24

there's that many other statistics like

40:26

that. that point tude overall uplift

40:28

in of among black Americans. And

40:31

then there's other statistics that point

40:33

to a decline in actual. Racism.

40:36

Towards black people on the part of whites

40:38

and others. I. Don't think that that is

40:40

ever going to go to Zero. But. We've

40:42

made substantial progress in the time

40:44

between my grandfather's generation and my

40:47

father's in my father's in mind.

40:49

Recent polling has shown.

40:52

That. Does support. Of

40:54

African Americans and Hispanics for

40:56

the Democratic Party. Is.

40:58

At it's lowest level really Since polling began

41:00

a minute since nineteen six him at the

41:02

a lot of questions were not well as

41:04

and and the. Makeup. Of the

41:06

parties, and nineteen Sixty was much more

41:09

national and diverse than does today. And.

41:11

It's that a pretty precipitous drop, even

41:13

in the past eight years, particular amongst

41:15

African Americans and and again, yes, and

41:17

and Florida amongst Hispanics. Moving. To

41:20

the Republican party, or also moving

41:22

toward independent parties, To of

41:24

of an explanation for why this is the

41:26

case, Or do you have have you thought

41:29

about what underlies this particular sandwiches? Be.

41:31

Dramatic. And wireless I have. Profound

41:33

or potentially profound impact on what does on

41:36

and and the and Twenty Twenty Four. Yeah.

41:38

So I've looked into at a fair amount. It.

41:41

Seems that the Hispanic trend is

41:43

really quite significant. In. Terms of

41:45

Numbers and was really material that a

41:47

difference between Twenty sixteen and Twenty Twenty

41:49

the change in black voters has been

41:52

more modest. I mean, I think we're

41:54

talking about Trump got two percent more

41:56

of the black vote. In twenty twenty

41:58

than he did. And twenty sixteen. And the

42:00

poll. the near time Sienna poll that have

42:02

been coming out have shown. Something.

42:05

Like twenty percent support for Republicans

42:07

among black Americans, and I think

42:09

those poll should be taken with

42:11

heavy, heavy grains of salt. The

42:14

media likes to report on polls

42:16

because they seem like they're facts,

42:18

but they're really vague suggestions of

42:21

a signal. So. What we have

42:23

right now is is a vague suggestion

42:25

of a signal that there is motion

42:27

among black voters toward the Republican party

42:29

shouldn't be reading to overly. However, it's

42:31

a real signal. So the question? What's

42:33

behind the signal? I can tell you

42:35

what I don't think it is. I

42:37

don't think that Trump in particular is

42:39

a P is more appealing than other

42:41

Republicans, because when you put. Other

42:44

republicans against Biden. They

42:46

get roughly just as much support from

42:48

prospective black voters in those polls, so

42:51

I think there is a trend. Among.

42:54

A certain portion of in

42:56

particular it's. Black. Men

42:58

under thirty. So. This would

43:00

be my demographic essentially, and pew

43:02

actually looked into this. At some

43:04

point in the past few years, And. Try

43:07

to isolate. What? Do we

43:09

know about these voters that are are

43:11

are going to the Republican party? These

43:13

black voters. And. What have found

43:15

is that they're know like do no more

43:18

likely than black democrats to be upper middle

43:20

class. So it it isn't the stereotype that

43:22

black republicans are all bougie upper middle class

43:24

and that's why they're republican. But.

43:27

They're what what they did fine his at. Black.

43:29

Republicans resonated more

43:31

with. The. Message of

43:33

the Republican Party: I ye. Personal.

43:36

Responsibility. Don't. Blame

43:38

systemic racism for your problems. etc.

43:42

And. Also had less racial solidarity

43:44

and general. In other words, they were

43:46

less likely to same My. My.

43:48

Blackness is the most important thing about me. They

43:51

were much more likely to say my individual identity

43:53

is is is is what matters about me and

43:56

I happened to be black. Probably.

43:58

The outcomes razor explanation is the something

44:00

about the messaging of is not the

44:02

democratic party than like the. Vibe.

44:05

of the the wider vibe of

44:07

the democratic party has turned off

44:09

as of black voters. And.

44:12

It. Over indexes with black

44:14

men. Under. Thirty who are

44:17

more. Drawn to the

44:19

message of of the Republican party on

44:21

race issues and in general. And

44:23

then there's sexy read: essential, overcome because

44:25

the economy this better and everyone's racist.

44:27

Anyway, so us. Is Sick

44:30

House has a datapoint. You know she

44:32

may come as a data point and the

44:34

you might also think. Trump's problem

44:36

In terms of. You.

44:38

Know purported bigotry was largely

44:40

directed at immigrants, not black

44:42

people, Is so and

44:45

and and Black Americans in

44:47

general. Are not really

44:49

pro immigration. And so it's It's

44:51

silly possible that l a lot of the.

44:54

The. Aspects of Trump that

44:56

great. But. The be the

44:58

elite and kind of people in.

45:01

Our. Our World of Podcasting

45:03

journalism. May not. Land.

45:06

At the same for for the the the

45:08

median black voter I don't know but. Again,

45:10

I think it really. The earlier stuff

45:13

I said is probably closer to the truth

45:15

because other republicans seem to also be pulling

45:17

better. With. Black voters. Are

45:20

this is one of these conversations of which there are

45:22

several that I'm gonna say about this for Wish we

45:24

had. Days. To talk and artists

45:26

less than an hour. It's. Also

45:28

conversation where. Are comes

45:30

razor managed to be mentioned twice

45:32

which. And an hour session where

45:35

men and were attention once as a good conversation.

45:37

twilight is even value ring. When that happened I

45:39

feel I should have an hour comes razor bell

45:41

and the background and of a thing I would

45:43

probably get more viewers. we're at We're We're not

45:45

doing our bells and whistles. I think well enough

45:48

are drinking game? Maybe. Has

45:50

tried every time. You know everyone takes a

45:52

shot so maybe maybe that. As a

45:54

as a note to self am and I

45:56

will consider for future is your podcast a

45:59

Bell for Office his arena. Our

46:01

shot for a year or two. Something like

46:03

that. Keep up the

46:05

work you're doing! I think it's vital

46:07

an important that. We.

46:09

As you have these debates in

46:12

a. Open. Direct fashion.

46:14

I think sensibility matters hugely, and I

46:16

don't think that there's a lot of

46:18

the sense of sensibility out there, meaning

46:20

the way one has a discussion and

46:23

the way one has an argument as

46:25

a lot of a sat on shaping

46:27

the arc of that discussion and that

46:29

argument to mattered. Luna spreads combativeness. Hostility

46:31

breeds hostility. fair bit fair. And

46:34

if you're looking for fight it's easy to find one

46:36

that if you're looking for solutions are you're looking for

46:38

some degree of okay how do we navigate and the

46:40

best collect the fashion. How one

46:42

starts that conversation. The sensibility that

46:44

one brings. And. That you so

46:46

evidently bring to your writing and to your

46:49

work is vital. and that even if, as

46:51

you've mentioned before, There. Can

46:53

be times when being com and

46:55

cogent. And. Collected can actually

46:57

be more of a third rail for

47:00

people than being strident. an angry and

47:02

extreme. That. Being said, I really

47:04

appreciate the tone, I appreciate the work, and

47:06

I think it's appreciating at whether I would

47:08

or whether I do or do not agree

47:10

with everything you say. It's. The starting

47:12

point of a discussion and debate. That I

47:15

think absolute files. Or.

47:18

Thank you so much for an interesting interview! Based

47:21

on. So

47:24

we've been looking forward to that conversation

47:26

for quite awhile. And it

47:28

was definitely worth the wait. He

47:30

is disarmingly com. And.

47:33

As we know we both like and we

47:35

like as a. Approach in the

47:37

sensibility. But. It was viscerally.

47:40

if com can be visceral, it

47:42

was a visceral indication of. Again

47:44

the question I asked that he

47:47

addressed of is it is fascinating

47:49

how much negative heat. Com.

47:51

And Hughes has attracted given his whole approach

47:53

and persona, and it's June, his writing term

47:55

and around a lot of his essays is.

47:58

Yeah. He thought someone their people. Me they're

48:00

pretty writers you made who are. Intense.

48:03

And vicious and friend and then various

48:05

also getting person. He is bizarre spoken

48:07

and my and moderate in both print

48:09

and in person and so either we

48:11

eat. You know just how contentious and

48:14

and emotional people are about the issues

48:16

he deals with and them questions of

48:18

race in America and particular by virtue

48:20

of even someone who talks more. Calmly.

48:23

And we had this conversation a little bit

48:25

of with Richard Reeves when we talked about

48:27

masculinity and boys riot that that he to

48:30

somebody has been. Who does

48:32

not have a Firebrand polemical personality

48:34

and yet. The. Stuff that

48:36

he writes about can engender those

48:38

responses. Yeah, I mean fun fact: An

48:40

anti communist as a will. Be socially awkward and but.

48:43

He. Almost us A break up one time

48:45

in my life is a success in

48:47

advance. I. Have

48:50

a call and is a plaza Here

48:52

Are they really. Didn't know enough about me? Of

48:54

a sudden. I

48:58

didn't say I love for years. For years.

49:00

You should have brought that up with him just

49:02

to see what the racing is moving. like you're

49:04

not the first person to tell me that. Are

49:07

I? Yeah and I kind of regret that I

49:09

didn't say it. I thought that it is my

49:11

make him feel uncomfortable. You know that he was

49:13

the source of relations and sleep. But

49:17

I you. I think the reason why

49:19

people get so emotional about this issue

49:21

is because the history is a powerful

49:23

and because they are. Despite the fact

49:25

that I was once had to bring

49:27

up all the progress in race relations

49:29

and sort of prosperity and success particularly

49:31

of black Americans. now it does remain

49:33

the fact that there are a lot

49:35

of stats that when you look at

49:37

the disparities are really. discouraging.

49:39

you know, like if you look

49:41

at white vs. black homer, homeownership

49:44

grades or net wealth. Other things

49:46

like that where you see the

49:48

disparity anything to yourself. Okay,

49:51

maybe eve. Philosophically,

49:53

Colon is right that we should live in a

49:55

clear run society, but. These. Inequities of

49:57

Not and Bowers so I am very.

50:00

Sympathetic. To both common side

50:02

and the sign that says hey should we

50:04

had a we would be better if we

50:06

tip the scales. I think

50:08

ben the question is. The

50:11

challenge of individuals vs. aggregates or

50:13

even regions vs. I agree. It's

50:15

meaning is a. Cohort.

50:18

Of a. White. Males

50:20

are doing statistically better overall as

50:22

a cohort then. Black.

50:24

Males just. As

50:27

a group said, Does.

50:29

Tipping the scales in a groove

50:31

fastens. Really help things

50:34

in an appreciable way. Past.

50:36

A certain point, You know there's a. Somewhat.

50:39

Debated. Economist.

50:41

At. Paradise for the a strong

50:43

paradox. Were were added we talked about

50:45

this one's on one of our says about.

50:48

A certain amount of wealth clearly makes people

50:50

happier, but that. Once. A

50:52

certain rate arrange has been reached.

50:55

There's. A plateau of fact, so that

50:58

increasing wells over. A certain.

51:00

Factor doesn't increase happiness. And

51:03

their have now been debates about whether or not that's

51:05

the case, but it certainly was positive As a. It's.

51:07

Economic inequalities The one thing you're lucky

51:10

about in terms of collective other satisfaction,

51:12

society or belief that society functioning. It.

51:15

May be that the scales having from

51:18

nineteen Sixty five whenever much more robust

51:20

Great Society affirmative action programs really really

51:22

came into place. Until let's have

51:24

a late nineties, might have been very effective

51:27

in in redressing some the imbalances. The question

51:29

is. Are they endlessly

51:31

effective? I it does. Does doing

51:33

so actually lead you toward. A.

51:36

Societal balance that either the individuals

51:38

and groups are affected. seal is

51:40

an improvement. Or. Is our law

51:42

of diminishing returns? And. And

51:44

should this be forever, right? Well, I.

51:46

Think that even people who would be anti

51:48

the side of common use right? Let's say

51:50

that they would be an end to this

51:52

and that particular and of the be been

51:55

the stats. Are equal and it we can.

51:57

Get into har you have for against that and even if

51:59

you don't take. If a killer pack, I

52:01

think that it's less of a diminishing

52:03

returns visa v. wealth argument and more

52:06

as a justice argument like you wanna

52:08

live in a society the you feel

52:10

is fair and just and I think

52:13

that that emotional component is also very

52:15

important and very strong in these cases.

52:17

And I think that that emotional component

52:19

is a lot of. For. Drives

52:22

the argument for hey, you know

52:24

that their city percent of blacks

52:26

who own homes, united States versus

52:28

over seventy of fights, you know.

52:30

And so why is. That the case,

52:32

I don't think it's like. A

52:34

How much better with your life? Be percentage wise

52:37

if you own a home vs not. Own

52:39

a home? yeah and a decent wondering

52:41

is clear. Demographic where we touched on

52:43

the sun in the conversation is. The

52:46

more time passes between us

52:48

a point of origin of

52:50

complete. Societal. Injustice and

52:53

fracturing so a point of

52:55

time of flavor in the

52:57

nineteenth century, the more history

52:59

develops between now and then.

53:01

Or let's let's move o'clock

53:04

Foreign Jim Crow, systemic segregation

53:06

and discrimination. Well into the

53:08

twentieth century. But. The longer you

53:10

go from whenever that legally and

53:12

did not time A cultural racism

53:15

and social racism. The harder

53:17

is to sustain the argument for subsequent generations

53:19

that you should be tipping the scales right

53:21

because than. The. Original point

53:23

of which that inequality starts.

53:26

Seems. Further and further in the past

53:28

that again this is not something that the

53:30

United States alone deals with. a beer countries

53:32

have to constantly deal with. When is the

53:34

past the past as as opposed to. When.

53:37

Are we in the present still living with?

53:39

whatever? Imbalances. And harms in the

53:41

past that we should redress in the process. Now

53:44

I think you're right that

53:46

the line becomes less direct.

53:48

Eye as far as arms. I.

53:51

Just don't know when we

53:53

can say that. There's.

53:55

No line at all. Anymore unless think

53:58

that can certainly think of many people

54:00

that vehemently idea that we aren't. There

54:02

yet. But that is a know

54:04

and I are you sure as he just has right

54:07

now I said i don't attorney to say I don't

54:09

think I don't agree touch on this as it's the

54:11

sort of homeowners was set of, but I doubt that

54:13

he would argue that everything is fine and dandy mean

54:15

that the remove economic equality and equality of opportunity and

54:18

all these things he didn't. Make the point that

54:20

if you could identify. A direct

54:22

harm in a descendant right now that he

54:24

is proud that he used as an Mri.

54:26

What you said before it is to draw

54:28

a circle around an entire group. So.

54:31

The other two two issues are: when when would

54:34

you decide the things are done. Or. Sufficient.

54:36

And. To is it the role

54:38

of government and law to make

54:41

its citizens vs. societal evolution that

54:43

may not be about was and

54:45

government. We're. Who and are going to

54:47

answer these questions right now? It's just a. You.

54:49

Know whenever whenever these programs to come

54:52

when it comes to affirmative action and

54:54

and the programs of the nineteen sixties.

54:57

The it with there was never it any

54:59

clearer and point right and clearly people. Will

55:01

ask. I mean. I guess so are

55:03

we don't ask us about entitlements cause entitlements we're not supposed

55:05

to have an important meeting there is ever gonna be in

55:07

and point for. Social. Security Medicare because every

55:09

human being was going to grow old and age and

55:12

have health problems. so they're all going to need retirement

55:14

money in. Healthcare in perpetuity.

55:17

Or much of that affirmative action programs were

55:19

thought of as an in perpetuity thing. They

55:22

were specifically not a thing as

55:24

rpg of a that's other person

55:26

but they did think that affirmative

55:28

action would. Know if it wasn't her at

55:30

have been? Yeah, Yeah, thank you I do.

55:32

You remember reading that when affirmative action was

55:35

put into place that they thought that it

55:37

would be necessary anymore? I think like twenty

55:39

years previous. Finale was earlier than now,

55:41

they thought that it would be totally

55:43

fine. So here we are with unresolved

55:46

questions and good debates. please. Spurs: Are

55:48

you listening in of tennis your thoughts

55:50

about this Officer buses? it's her and

55:52

Evergreen conversation even if we wish it

55:54

weren't and it's gonna continue to be

55:57

even for him to stop. So.

56:00

Now we turn to some news of the week.

56:02

Yes, let's that. Okay

56:06

so three big things that you

56:08

guys know about in progress: News.

56:10

One. Is a surprise elections.

56:13

During. Our year. Of. Elections Twenty

56:15

four, The My Reflection years and that

56:18

is Senegal. Probably lot of people missed

56:20

that last month they had peace elections.

56:22

But it in the youngest president in Africa as

56:25

history. And this is all very exciting

56:27

because just. Few weeks prior they're having

56:29

a constitutional crisis and mass protests. So.

56:31

Good for xenical. Good for Salvador.

56:33

Good from West Africa. The. Other

56:35

been a lot in the news about through. Senegalese

56:38

backsliding about democracy being imperiled. It's

56:40

a good stuff suffer the most.

56:42

we'll see where it goes, but.

56:44

It's. Movie in the. More.

56:48

Positive direction when much of the news had been moving

56:50

in. A more know you have to listen. Nip

56:52

Samsung. A. New. News out

56:55

of Canada. Apparently the Canadian government

56:57

just announced. In April that they

56:59

are going to pay for most

57:01

forms of contraception. For women

57:03

of reproductive age, I mean by is.

57:06

What? A dream life enough to be a

57:08

Canadian woman. And that's national, right? And

57:10

so much did. It they will

57:12

not to be a provincial. Reality.

57:14

Or is in essence graham That. Whole

57:17

issue of. Several. Mandates

57:19

vs state mandates which is somewhat of

57:21

an issue can, but there's a more.

57:23

Forceful. Central Government their. Guess and

57:26

one for the science geeks.

57:28

So it. People. May or

57:30

may not know that partnership between France

57:32

and Germany. The. Us and South

57:34

Korea all separately are. Developing super

57:37

highly precise M R

57:39

I scanners, So.

57:41

For France and Germany, partnership is

57:43

the first to begin actually scanning

57:46

human brains are with that kind

57:48

of new generation of Am I

57:50

machines that are ten times the

57:52

amount of precise as previous ones

57:54

so obviously know like be research

57:56

findings are. Discoveries have come out of

57:59

that yet. but. It's pretty nice,

58:01

pretty neat, I'm sure some well.

58:04

Yeah. And had a daughter recently say. I.

58:06

Was asking about getting a scan of something

58:08

and he said. You. Know. Isn't

58:11

wait another year or two for these new

58:13

machines to come because the amount of informational

58:15

you'll be able to get then. We'll.

58:17

Be so much more complete them whenever

58:19

you get now that whatever you find

58:21

now. Probably. Isn't

58:23

gonna matter nearly as much as what you find that. Left.

58:26

Or that was interesting that now and that was

58:28

am I propose. This. Development? Absolutely. The

58:30

last finale of this was a

58:32

write up a Social Psychology Research

58:34

in the Harvard Business Review, but

58:36

I thought it was really nice

58:39

that apparently there's what's called a

58:41

like gap. Where people actually

58:43

underestimate how much other people like

58:45

them. So after you have a

58:47

conversation with someone or self critical

58:49

thought tend to dominate. and we

58:51

tend to underestimate how much the

58:53

other person. Had a good impression of

58:55

us so. If somebody to remember next Sunday have

58:58

a new interaction. I wonder that's

59:00

a good thing or a bad thing.

59:02

I mean it to somebody. it. it's

59:04

probably a better thing for all the

59:06

social importantly to have a more skeptical

59:09

sense of how we have conveyed ourselves

59:11

and have an overwhelmingly positive one. Because

59:13

they overwhelmingly positive one means. You'll.

59:15

Never be self critical. You one thing about your

59:17

behavior. You won't try to be mindful of how

59:19

you are. Whereas. Be a

59:21

little too critical. A less it

59:24

goes into com like enervating self out

59:26

is probably a healthy thing. Notice like

59:28

be mindful of how you interact with

59:30

people. Try. To be self aware,

59:32

try to notice. The. queues,

59:35

So. I think on that one. Yeah.

59:38

Because fry a better thing that people feel

59:40

worse about themselves. Than. It would be

59:42

of people felt really good about themselves. On

59:44

a high here. If you been a reconsidering

59:46

amount of social anxiety that Nz currently has

59:49

that it might be a good reminder for

59:51

them though, the ones that tend to spiral

59:53

after they've had a social interaction that see

59:55

that the same that assesses. Yeah, I

59:57

think that's that's. totally Sarah was, you know on it. They

1:00:00

said you know one of like debilitating social

1:00:02

anxiety based on. An. Erroneous

1:00:04

sense of how negatively you're

1:00:06

you're impacting people. Yeah,

1:00:08

but you know we're going to be others. Are

1:00:11

now now. They're and Abby

1:00:13

Media Spy was you have any

1:00:16

Daughters are self criticizes. Feather listening

1:00:18

to the podcast. Balance for a of. Oh.

1:00:20

Thank you all for listening as always.

1:00:22

Please go sign up for the weekly

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